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On November 27 2011 16:02 k10forgotten wrote:I'm Terran, and this buff on the upgrade cost for Protoss really intrigued me. First, let me show you the effects of each +1 upgrade on each Terran and Protoss ground unit: TERRAN+ Show Spoiler [BIO] +- Marine: +1 damage (+16%)
- Marauder: +1 damage (+10%/+5% vs armored)
- Reaper (pistols): +1 damage (x2) (+25%/+12% vs light)
- Reaper (grenade): +3 vs buildings (+10% vs buildings)
- Ghost: +1 damage (+10%/+5% vs light)
- Hellion: +1 damage (+12%/+9% vs light)
- Tank: +2 damage (+13%/+8% vs armored)
- Tank (sieged): +3 damage (+8%/+6% vs armored)
- Thor (ground): +3 damage (x2) (+10%)
- Thor (air): +1 damage (x4) (+16%)
- Zealot: +1 damage (x2) (+12%)
- Stalker: +1 damage (+10%/+7% vs armored)
- Sentry: +1 damage (+16%)
- Dark Templar: +5 damage (+11%)
- Archon: +3 damage (+12%)
- Immortal: +3 damage (+15%/+6% vs armored)
- Colossus: +2 damage (x2) (+13%)
As we can see, an attack upgrade is better for Protoss overall, if we look to stats only - specially for zealots, dark templars, archons, colossi and immortals. (Well, it's suburb for sentry, but it's DPS is half of theirs...) The attack upgrade is also just as good for marines, reapers(!), unsieged tanks and the Thor's air attack, but those are 2 different types of upgrades - bio and mech.
Let's have a look on the costs to get a +2 upgrade (TvP). I'll assume already built Gateway and Barracks: + Show Spoiler [TERRAN - Bio] +- Engineering Bay: 125/0/-
- +1 Infantry Weapons: 100/100/70s
- Factory: 150/100/-
- Armory: 150/100/-
- +2 Infantry Weapons: 175/175/190s
TOTAL: 700/475/260s (4min 20sec)I didn't count the EBay, Factory and armory build time because the wait for +1 attack is greater, thus I reduced it accordingly. - Factory: 150/100/60s
- Armory: 150/100/65s
- +1 Vehicle Weapons: 100/100/160s
- +2 Vehicle Weapons: 175/175/190s
TOTAL: 575/475/475s (7min 55sec)- Forge: 150/0/-
- +1 Ground Weapons: 100/100/95s
- Cybernetics Core: 150/0/-
- Twilight Council: 150/100/-
- +2 Ground Weapons: 150/150/190s
TOTAL: 700/350/285s (4min 45sec)I didn't count all the Forge, CyCore and Council because the wait for the +1 is greater, thus I reduced it accordingly. Also, I didn't use Chrono Boost. Also, keep in mind that these times are utopic, and do not reflect how it is in game, since it depends on many, many variables. But what can we see from this? - A +1 attack costs: Mech > Protoss > Bio.
- A +2 attack costs more gas to Terran, either if he goes Bio or Mech.
- A +1 mech attack comes too late, if the Protoss isn't sloppy with his upgrades. Theoretically, at the same time Protoss' +2 finishes.
Since going Bio isn't gas heavy, it feels OK to expend 125 more gas on upgrades - but it hurts a lot when you go Mech. Also you need to wait until Armory to get your +1. This delay keeps Terran from using it against Protoss, since he cannot keep up on upgrades if his opponent decides to rush them - specially with Chrono Boost. But this is just one of the things against Mech in TvP. Another factor is that he cannot reinforce just as quickly. Terran needs production capability as the Protoss needs Gateways (if he goes pure mech), which means Factories, Tech Labs and Reactors. This means he needs tons of gas to build structures and more gas to build units. He also needs Planetary Fortresses, which is gas heavy too! All this can be countered by pure Zealots with Charge, which doesn't cost gas at all - neither does the Gateway (I'm not saying it should!). But this is only one of the anti-mech units/abilities Protoss have. Aside this, they've got blink, feedback, hardened shields, graviton beams...
The point I'm trying to make is: Mech is used almost only in TvT. It may appear sometimes in TvZ (and wasn't very effective, until now - but I admit I haven't seen it with a good air support), but never (even Goody stopped using it in this match up) in TvP. Since going Mech is already a gas heavy investment, with a huge delay to get your +1, shouldn't the Mech upgrades cost less gas and/or time?
Mech isn't viable against Protoss. This won't help. Mech needs so many buffs it would completely break TvZ. The EMP nerf hurt mech at least as much as it hurt bio. Leaving even 1 immortal un EMP'd can cost you the game. I am not exaggerating!
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But why should mech be viable in the first place in TvP? Just because players want it so?
Stargate play is not viable in PvT either, guys...
The funny thing is, if mech was to be buffed (as it will be in HotS anyway), stargate units would probably be our best hope to beat it :p
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On November 27 2011 15:48 ThePlayer33 wrote:
neural parasite is useless, i think blizzard should remove it. the whole point of the ability is for infestors to capture colossus or tanks or thor, but when oyu get outranged and gets 3/4 shot by most terran/protoss units, neural parasite is quite useless. Basically. I never see it used anymore and I myself only ever use it on thors and archons as it's useless against colossus and suicidal against tanks. Against Colossus all there is anymore is the oh so fun composition of roach/hydra/corruptor or going mutas and not allowing a colossus composition to formulate in the first place. NP was never an issue except against protoss who didn't watch positioning of their colossus. If anything, they should have looked at infested terrans.
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On November 27 2011 14:30 architecture wrote:
Are people still touting inject as a difficult/inferior mechanism? Inject is arguably the strongest mechanic, and vastly outstrips the other races in the late game.
It's simply not true that injects make Z somehow more difficult or demanding at a high level than the other races. Last time I checked T was easily the most mechanically demanding race overall in micromanagement and multitasking, balanced out by straightforward macro mechanics.
it's not difficult, but it is inferior in the sense that you miss an inject, you are missing a tonnes more in comparison to missing chrono or mule
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On November 27 2011 16:26 ZenithM wrote:
Stargate play is not viable in PvT either, guys...
If you saw the results of Dreamhack Winter 2011 then you would have noticed that Hero had completely trounced Puma on Dual Sight using effective stargate play with phoenixes. I think stargate play is a viable option given the right circumstances.
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On November 27 2011 16:02 k10forgotten wrote:I'm Terran, and this buff on the upgrade cost for Protoss really intrigued me. First, let me show you the effects of each +1 upgrade on each Terran and Protoss ground unit: TERRAN+ Show Spoiler [BIO] +- Marine: +1 damage (+16%)
- Marauder: +1 damage (+10%/+5% vs armored)
- Reaper (pistols): +1 damage (x2) (+25%/+12% vs light)
- Reaper (grenade): +3 vs buildings (+10% vs buildings)
- Ghost: +1 damage (+10%/+5% vs light)
- Hellion: +1 damage (+12%/+9% vs light)
- Tank: +2 damage (+13%/+8% vs armored)
- Tank (sieged): +3 damage (+8%/+6% vs armored)
- Thor (ground): +3 damage (x2) (+10%)
- Thor (air): +1 damage (x4) (+16%)
- Zealot: +1 damage (x2) (+12%)
- Stalker: +1 damage (+10%/+7% vs armored)
- Sentry: +1 damage (+16%)
- Dark Templar: +5 damage (+11%)
- Archon: +3 damage (+12%)
- Immortal: +3 damage (+15%/+6% vs armored)
- Colossus: +2 damage (x2) (+13%)
As we can see, an attack upgrade is better for Protoss overall, if we look to stats only - specially for zealots, dark templars, archons, colossi and immortals. (Well, it's suburb for sentry, but it's DPS is half of theirs...) The attack upgrade is also just as good for marines, reapers(!), unsieged tanks and the Thor's air attack, but those are 2 different types of upgrades - bio and mech.
Let's have a look on the costs to get a +2 upgrade (TvP). I'll assume already built Gateway and Barracks: + Show Spoiler [TERRAN - Bio] +- Engineering Bay: 125/0/-
- +1 Infantry Weapons: 100/100/70s
- Factory: 150/100/-
- Armory: 150/100/-
- +2 Infantry Weapons: 175/175/190s
TOTAL: 700/475/260s (4min 20sec)I didn't count the EBay, Factory and armory build time because the wait for +1 attack is greater, thus I reduced it accordingly. - Factory: 150/100/60s
- Armory: 150/100/65s
- +1 Vehicle Weapons: 100/100/160s
- +2 Vehicle Weapons: 175/175/190s
TOTAL: 575/475/475s (7min 55sec)- Forge: 150/0/-
- +1 Ground Weapons: 100/100/95s
- Cybernetics Core: 150/0/-
- Twilight Council: 150/100/-
- +2 Ground Weapons: 150/150/190s
TOTAL: 700/350/285s (4min 45sec)I didn't count all the Forge, CyCore and Council because the wait for the +1 is greater, thus I reduced it accordingly. Also, I didn't use Chrono Boost. Also, keep in mind that these times are utopic, and do not reflect how it is in game, since it depends on many, many variables. But what can we see from this? - A +1 attack costs: Mech > Protoss > Bio.
- A +2 attack costs more gas to Terran, either if he goes Bio or Mech.
- A +1 mech attack comes too late, if the Protoss isn't sloppy with his upgrades. Theoretically, at the same time Protoss' +2 finishes.
Since going Bio isn't gas heavy, it feels OK to expend 125 more gas on upgrades - but it hurts a lot when you go Mech. Also you need to wait until Armory to get your +1. This delay keeps Terran from using it against Protoss, since he cannot keep up on upgrades if his opponent decides to rush them - specially with Chrono Boost. But this is just one of the things against Mech in TvP. Another factor is that he cannot reinforce just as quickly. Terran needs production capability as the Protoss needs Gateways (if he goes pure mech), which means Factories, Tech Labs and Reactors. This means he needs tons of gas to build structures and more gas to build units. He also needs Planetary Fortresses, which is gas heavy too! All this can be countered by pure Zealots with Charge, which doesn't cost gas at all - neither does the Gateway (I'm not saying it should!). But this is only one of the anti-mech units/abilities Protoss have. Aside this, they've got blink, feedback, hardened shields, graviton beams...
The point I'm trying to make is: Mech is used almost only in TvT. It may appear sometimes in TvZ (and wasn't very effective, until now - but I admit I haven't seen it with a good air support), but never (even Goody stopped using it in this match up) in TvP. Since going Mech is already a gas heavy investment, with a huge delay to get your +1, shouldn't the Mech upgrades cost less gas and/or time?
Well first of all, in your damage calculations, I don't think you factored in DPS, which favors Terran more than you're letting on.
Second, the upgrades all tend to level out as far as them helping certain groups of units to different extents. For example, a Protoss needs to upgrade both shield and armor to boost all "health", whereas a Terran doesn't... but on the other hand, those Protoss shield and armor upgrades apply to more units. It all evens out for the most part.
Third, Terran is by far the least gas-heavy and most cost-efficient race in the game (and Protoss happens to be most gas-heavy, with Zerg right behind them). I don't think buffing Terran upgrade costs (or any other costs for that matter) would make certain unit compositions any better in certain situations. That depends on the metagame, in my opinion... and at this point in time, I don't really see straight-up mech as a viable option (although you can see tanks occasionally complement an army, such as in 1/1/1 builds).
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On November 27 2011 15:24 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 14:24 Ziggitz wrote:On November 27 2011 14:03 poorcloud wrote:On November 27 2011 13:59 Ziggitz wrote:On November 27 2011 13:47 cive wrote:On November 27 2011 13:04 kappadevin wrote:
Missing an Inject is more punishing than missing a MULE, but that isn't really a balance related issue. At the highest level neither player should be missing either. In a similar way, missing an SCV cycle is more punishing than letting an extra larva spawn before making two drones at once. You can't say that larvae inject is more punishing than MULE because they are different variables. MULE is a gatherer and a product while larvae inject is increasing the production capacity. The consequence of missing an larvae inject is just more visible and obvious than missing a MULE drop. If larvae inject worries people, there are many solutions. One that I use (because I miss injects lol) is getting a macro hatch pre-lair. Missing a MULE drop is pretty much not an issue in the slightest unless you've missed several in row or you're going pure production into an all in with no non unit production costs like upgrades or tech. If you miss a MULE and then drop two at once, then you've still mined the same amount of minerals and your tech is primarily limited by gas. A lot of the time you can miss MULEs with zero consequences. Well, if i was a zerg player, i can also get supply blocked with no consequences since i can just store up larva and then build drones, while protoss and terran miss out on scvs + production when they get supply blocked. Every race have their own unique mechanics i suppose. Not even close to accurate. After Terran and Protoss get enough workers to constantly produce workers from their main structure(i.e. when the game clock hits zero seconds) Their worker production is constant minus the build time of the orbital and taking chrono boosts into account. Meanwhile Zerg can and has to produce workers with as many of their larvae as they can get away with. This also means if you use all 10 larvae per minute on drones from a hatch with a queen, you can spend 500 minerals per minute on drones, which in the early game with 2 hatches and queens means up to 1000 minerals per minute, i.e. all of your early game economy if you can get away with it. Because of this you produce drones to mine minerals to make more drones meaning that any delay at an early stage of drone production has an exponential effect on your economy. Zerg are affected the most by early supply blocks. Even more so if they are a queen short whilst supply blocked as the hatchery that needs that queen will be running at less than half production capacity. But don't the same logic work for terran and protoss? If i miss a mule, it means i may get less money at this point of time --> unable to put down production facilties on time --> overcompensate on production facilities --> lost money? And if terran and zerg has both 15 drones and both get supply blocked for a min. Terran can only produce 1 scv onwards after that while zerg can produce 10 after that. Zerg will thus get more exponentially ahead. I think your just looking at how bad it is to get supply blocked as zerg and deciding on its opportunity costs when you fail to realise that it is even more crucial for other races to not get supply blocked.
When Terran and Protoss are building their economy up they need 6 probes or scvs to produce workers constantly without chrono boost from their command center or nexus. Their worker production is constant. If you lose 1 worker you will be one worker down from how many you would normally have until the point at which you have enough workers. If Terran loses 3 scvs they'll be constantly 3 scvs down. If zerg loses 3 drones then by the next production cycle those 3 drones would have mined enough for 2 more drones, now you're 5 drones down, if those now nonexistant 5 drones mined for another 40 second production cycle they'd have mined enough for 3 more drones putting you 8 drones down in just 80 seconds. If you are terran and you lost 3 scvs in the same situation you lost 3 scvs and their worth of mining over those 80 seconds and thats it.
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On November 27 2011 15:25 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 15:07 Acritter wrote:
I guess I'll bring up a new topic. I'm sure all of you have heard of KT Rolster buying some high-end computers recently. Any thoughts of how the incredibly well-trained hands of BW A-team professionals will affect balance, if at all (assuming they do switch over)? Couple of things that come to mind to me are Blink, Phoenixes, Injections, multipronged drops, and pickup micro. Not entirely sure if any of them will become imbalanced, but they should get a lot stronger with top-class control and multitasking. For one, we may see near 0 energy nexuses. We see so many unused chronoboosts in our top protoss players, even hero constantly has 1 or 2 nexi full of energy in dreamhack during his late game, which he can be using to chronoboost ourt colossi/gateways/upgrades non-stop.
One explanation I could give for the high energy nexus's is the cost vs benefit.
It forces you to move your camera to chronoboost the correct buildings while most protoss macro is done with hotkeys (not looking at the buildings) or focused over a pylon (often not next to building needing chronoboosting). This would be perfectly ok for a high level player to do often but chronoboost is not really that effective compared to the other macro mechanics.
Chronoboost is doing everything 50% faster for 20 seconds. A simple way to think of it is get the chronoboosted item out 10 seconds sooner assuming full chronoboost duration (with a cooldown of 20 seconds). Since you gain 25 energy in ~45 seconds at a rate of 0.5625 per second (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Energy).
Benefits really shine when chronoboosting upgrades as you could (if done perfectly) make any given upgrade finish 50% faster. Imagine a +1 attack for protoss which normally takes 160 seconds now takes only 80 seconds. This would require 8 chronoboosts, slightly less than 2 sets of 25 energy would be gained per nexus in that time. However if done consistently through the game and constantly using chronoboost to upgrade (or on probes as needed) could make a huge difference.
Maybe more pros should be using a camera hotkey or maybe double tapping their forge hotkey to quickly chronoboost? Id like to add that to my protoss play.
Compared to spawn larva id say chronoboost is easier to use (to keep energy low) but much less important.
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On November 27 2011 16:23 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 16:02 k10forgotten wrote:I'm Terran, and this buff on the upgrade cost for Protoss really intrigued me. First, let me show you the effects of each +1 upgrade on each Terran and Protoss ground unit: TERRAN+ Show Spoiler [BIO] +- Marine: +1 damage (+16%)
- Marauder: +1 damage (+10%/+5% vs armored)
- Reaper (pistols): +1 damage (x2) (+25%/+12% vs light)
- Reaper (grenade): +3 vs buildings (+10% vs buildings)
- Ghost: +1 damage (+10%/+5% vs light)
- Hellion: +1 damage (+12%/+9% vs light)
- Tank: +2 damage (+13%/+8% vs armored)
- Tank (sieged): +3 damage (+8%/+6% vs armored)
- Thor (ground): +3 damage (x2) (+10%)
- Thor (air): +1 damage (x4) (+16%)
- Zealot: +1 damage (x2) (+12%)
- Stalker: +1 damage (+10%/+7% vs armored)
- Sentry: +1 damage (+16%)
- Dark Templar: +5 damage (+11%)
- Archon: +3 damage (+12%)
- Immortal: +3 damage (+15%/+6% vs armored)
- Colossus: +2 damage (x2) (+13%)
As we can see, an attack upgrade is better for Protoss overall, if we look to stats only - specially for zealots, dark templars, archons, colossi and immortals. (Well, it's suburb for sentry, but it's DPS is half of theirs...) The attack upgrade is also just as good for marines, reapers(!), unsieged tanks and the Thor's air attack, but those are 2 different types of upgrades - bio and mech.
Let's have a look on the costs to get a +2 upgrade (TvP). I'll assume already built Gateway and Barracks: + Show Spoiler [TERRAN - Bio] +- Engineering Bay: 125/0/-
- +1 Infantry Weapons: 100/100/70s
- Factory: 150/100/-
- Armory: 150/100/-
- +2 Infantry Weapons: 175/175/190s
TOTAL: 700/475/260s (4min 20sec)I didn't count the EBay, Factory and armory build time because the wait for +1 attack is greater, thus I reduced it accordingly. - Factory: 150/100/60s
- Armory: 150/100/65s
- +1 Vehicle Weapons: 100/100/160s
- +2 Vehicle Weapons: 175/175/190s
TOTAL: 575/475/475s (7min 55sec)- Forge: 150/0/-
- +1 Ground Weapons: 100/100/95s
- Cybernetics Core: 150/0/-
- Twilight Council: 150/100/-
- +2 Ground Weapons: 150/150/190s
TOTAL: 700/350/285s (4min 45sec)I didn't count all the Forge, CyCore and Council because the wait for the +1 is greater, thus I reduced it accordingly. Also, I didn't use Chrono Boost. Also, keep in mind that these times are utopic, and do not reflect how it is in game, since it depends on many, many variables. But what can we see from this? - A +1 attack costs: Mech > Protoss > Bio.
- A +2 attack costs more gas to Terran, either if he goes Bio or Mech.
- A +1 mech attack comes too late, if the Protoss isn't sloppy with his upgrades. Theoretically, at the same time Protoss' +2 finishes.
Since going Bio isn't gas heavy, it feels OK to expend 125 more gas on upgrades - but it hurts a lot when you go Mech. Also you need to wait until Armory to get your +1. This delay keeps Terran from using it against Protoss, since he cannot keep up on upgrades if his opponent decides to rush them - specially with Chrono Boost. But this is just one of the things against Mech in TvP. Another factor is that he cannot reinforce just as quickly. Terran needs production capability as the Protoss needs Gateways (if he goes pure mech), which means Factories, Tech Labs and Reactors. This means he needs tons of gas to build structures and more gas to build units. He also needs Planetary Fortresses, which is gas heavy too! All this can be countered by pure Zealots with Charge, which doesn't cost gas at all - neither does the Gateway (I'm not saying it should!). But this is only one of the anti-mech units/abilities Protoss have. Aside this, they've got blink, feedback, hardened shields, graviton beams...
The point I'm trying to make is: Mech is used almost only in TvT. It may appear sometimes in TvZ (and wasn't very effective, until now - but I admit I haven't seen it with a good air support), but never (even Goody stopped using it in this match up) in TvP. Since going Mech is already a gas heavy investment, with a huge delay to get your +1, shouldn't the Mech upgrades cost less gas and/or time? Mech isn't viable against Protoss. This won't help. Mech needs so many buffs it would completely break TvZ. The EMP nerf hurt mech at least as much as it hurt bio. Leaving even 1 immortal un EMP'd can cost you the game. I am not exaggerating!
What kind of buffs? And what would be the Mech composition? I just hope it doesn't involve tanks, because Protoss is its hard counter.
I'm thinking more about Thors (massive/anti-air), Hellions, Ravens and Vikings if needed. I don't know, though.
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I am having problems understanding your logic. How does losing 3 drones as zerg translate into 5 drones behind
also chrono upgrades or units both saves you exactly the same amount of time. I don't see how it is better to use it on forge than robo beside for personal preference
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On November 27 2011 16:45 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 15:24 poorcloud wrote:On November 27 2011 14:24 Ziggitz wrote:On November 27 2011 14:03 poorcloud wrote:On November 27 2011 13:59 Ziggitz wrote:On November 27 2011 13:47 cive wrote:On November 27 2011 13:04 kappadevin wrote:
Missing an Inject is more punishing than missing a MULE, but that isn't really a balance related issue. At the highest level neither player should be missing either. In a similar way, missing an SCV cycle is more punishing than letting an extra larva spawn before making two drones at once. You can't say that larvae inject is more punishing than MULE because they are different variables. MULE is a gatherer and a product while larvae inject is increasing the production capacity. The consequence of missing an larvae inject is just more visible and obvious than missing a MULE drop. If larvae inject worries people, there are many solutions. One that I use (because I miss injects lol) is getting a macro hatch pre-lair. Missing a MULE drop is pretty much not an issue in the slightest unless you've missed several in row or you're going pure production into an all in with no non unit production costs like upgrades or tech. If you miss a MULE and then drop two at once, then you've still mined the same amount of minerals and your tech is primarily limited by gas. A lot of the time you can miss MULEs with zero consequences. Well, if i was a zerg player, i can also get supply blocked with no consequences since i can just store up larva and then build drones, while protoss and terran miss out on scvs + production when they get supply blocked. Every race have their own unique mechanics i suppose. Not even close to accurate. After Terran and Protoss get enough workers to constantly produce workers from their main structure(i.e. when the game clock hits zero seconds) Their worker production is constant minus the build time of the orbital and taking chrono boosts into account. Meanwhile Zerg can and has to produce workers with as many of their larvae as they can get away with. This also means if you use all 10 larvae per minute on drones from a hatch with a queen, you can spend 500 minerals per minute on drones, which in the early game with 2 hatches and queens means up to 1000 minerals per minute, i.e. all of your early game economy if you can get away with it. Because of this you produce drones to mine minerals to make more drones meaning that any delay at an early stage of drone production has an exponential effect on your economy. Zerg are affected the most by early supply blocks. Even more so if they are a queen short whilst supply blocked as the hatchery that needs that queen will be running at less than half production capacity. But don't the same logic work for terran and protoss? If i miss a mule, it means i may get less money at this point of time --> unable to put down production facilties on time --> overcompensate on production facilities --> lost money? And if terran and zerg has both 15 drones and both get supply blocked for a min. Terran can only produce 1 scv onwards after that while zerg can produce 10 after that. Zerg will thus get more exponentially ahead. I think your just looking at how bad it is to get supply blocked as zerg and deciding on its opportunity costs when you fail to realise that it is even more crucial for other races to not get supply blocked. When Terran and Protoss are building their economy up they need 6 probes or scvs to produce workers constantly without chrono boost from their command center or nexus. Their worker production is constant. If you lose 1 worker you will be one worker down from how many you would normally have until the point at which you have enough workers. If Terran loses 3 scvs they'll be constantly 3 scvs down. If zerg loses 3 drones then by the next production cycle those 3 drones would have mined enough for 2 more drones, now you're 5 drones down, if those now nonexistant 5 drones mined for another 40 second production cycle they'd have mined enough for 3 more drones putting you 8 drones down in just 80 seconds. If you are terran and you lost 3 scvs in the same situation you lost 3 scvs and their worth of mining over those 80 seconds and thats it.
Yes but that is because zerg has the ability to produce multiple drones at a time, which to me, seems like an advantage regardless. I play zerg and i think my race has the advantage in this aspect, and if i miss supply + drone timings, yeah sure i lose out on a lot in terams of opportunity cost but i know i can catch up way better than my other races.
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On November 27 2011 16:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 16:02 k10forgotten wrote:I'm Terran, and this buff on the upgrade cost for Protoss really intrigued me. First, let me show you the effects of each +1 upgrade on each Terran and Protoss ground unit: TERRAN+ Show Spoiler [BIO] +- Marine: +1 damage (+16%)
- Marauder: +1 damage (+10%/+5% vs armored)
- Reaper (pistols): +1 damage (x2) (+25%/+12% vs light)
- Reaper (grenade): +3 vs buildings (+10% vs buildings)
- Ghost: +1 damage (+10%/+5% vs light)
- Hellion: +1 damage (+12%/+9% vs light)
- Tank: +2 damage (+13%/+8% vs armored)
- Tank (sieged): +3 damage (+8%/+6% vs armored)
- Thor (ground): +3 damage (x2) (+10%)
- Thor (air): +1 damage (x4) (+16%)
- Zealot: +1 damage (x2) (+12%)
- Stalker: +1 damage (+10%/+7% vs armored)
- Sentry: +1 damage (+16%)
- Dark Templar: +5 damage (+11%)
- Archon: +3 damage (+12%)
- Immortal: +3 damage (+15%/+6% vs armored)
- Colossus: +2 damage (x2) (+13%)
As we can see, an attack upgrade is better for Protoss overall, if we look to stats only - specially for zealots, dark templars, archons, colossi and immortals. (Well, it's suburb for sentry, but it's DPS is half of theirs...) The attack upgrade is also just as good for marines, reapers(!), unsieged tanks and the Thor's air attack, but those are 2 different types of upgrades - bio and mech.
Let's have a look on the costs to get a +2 upgrade (TvP). I'll assume already built Gateway and Barracks: + Show Spoiler [TERRAN - Bio] +- Engineering Bay: 125/0/-
- +1 Infantry Weapons: 100/100/70s
- Factory: 150/100/-
- Armory: 150/100/-
- +2 Infantry Weapons: 175/175/190s
TOTAL: 700/475/260s (4min 20sec)I didn't count the EBay, Factory and armory build time because the wait for +1 attack is greater, thus I reduced it accordingly. - Factory: 150/100/60s
- Armory: 150/100/65s
- +1 Vehicle Weapons: 100/100/160s
- +2 Vehicle Weapons: 175/175/190s
TOTAL: 575/475/475s (7min 55sec)- Forge: 150/0/-
- +1 Ground Weapons: 100/100/95s
- Cybernetics Core: 150/0/-
- Twilight Council: 150/100/-
- +2 Ground Weapons: 150/150/190s
TOTAL: 700/350/285s (4min 45sec)I didn't count all the Forge, CyCore and Council because the wait for the +1 is greater, thus I reduced it accordingly. Also, I didn't use Chrono Boost. Also, keep in mind that these times are utopic, and do not reflect how it is in game, since it depends on many, many variables. But what can we see from this? - A +1 attack costs: Mech > Protoss > Bio.
- A +2 attack costs more gas to Terran, either if he goes Bio or Mech.
- A +1 mech attack comes too late, if the Protoss isn't sloppy with his upgrades. Theoretically, at the same time Protoss' +2 finishes.
Since going Bio isn't gas heavy, it feels OK to expend 125 more gas on upgrades - but it hurts a lot when you go Mech. Also you need to wait until Armory to get your +1. This delay keeps Terran from using it against Protoss, since he cannot keep up on upgrades if his opponent decides to rush them - specially with Chrono Boost. But this is just one of the things against Mech in TvP. Another factor is that he cannot reinforce just as quickly. Terran needs production capability as the Protoss needs Gateways (if he goes pure mech), which means Factories, Tech Labs and Reactors. This means he needs tons of gas to build structures and more gas to build units. He also needs Planetary Fortresses, which is gas heavy too! All this can be countered by pure Zealots with Charge, which doesn't cost gas at all - neither does the Gateway (I'm not saying it should!). But this is only one of the anti-mech units/abilities Protoss have. Aside this, they've got blink, feedback, hardened shields, graviton beams...
The point I'm trying to make is: Mech is used almost only in TvT. It may appear sometimes in TvZ (and wasn't very effective, until now - but I admit I haven't seen it with a good air support), but never (even Goody stopped using it in this match up) in TvP. Since going Mech is already a gas heavy investment, with a huge delay to get your +1, shouldn't the Mech upgrades cost less gas and/or time? Well first of all, in your damage calculations, I don't think you factored in DPS, which favors Terran more than you're letting on. Second, the upgrades all tend to level out as far as them helping certain groups of units to different extents. For example, a Protoss needs to upgrade both shield and armor to boost all "health", whereas a Terran doesn't... but on the other hand, those Protoss shield and armor upgrades apply to more units. It all evens out for the most part. Third, Terran is by far the least gas-heavy and most cost-efficient race in the game (and Protoss happens to be most gas-heavy, with Zerg right behind them). I don't think buffing Terran upgrade costs (or any other costs for that matter) would make certain unit compositions any better in certain situations. That depends on the metagame, in my opinion... and at this point in time, I don't really see straight-up mech as a viable option (although you can see tanks occasionally complement an army, such as in 1/1/1 builds).
The percentage apply to DPS as well, don't worry. And I didn't show the DPS of the units because it's not what upgrades are about - they're to increase the damage, so the way it's increased is what is most important to talk.
My point is just that getting just a +1 for Mech happens too late and costs too much, and has less benefits than a +1 Protoss Ground Weapons. And going Mech is gas-heavy. Tanks, Thors, Ravens, Planetaries, Factories, Starports, addons... They're all gas-heavy, aside that there are the upgrades, not only for weapons and armor, but blue flame, +1 range for turrets, +2 armor for buildings, Raven energy, HSM, 250mm... In my opinion, Mech is the most (or at least one of the most) gas-heavy unit compositions - and that doesn't work at TvP! |:
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well everything is gas heavy for protoss and they can still upgrade...
Terran sure is spoiled, by beeing able to afford everything because of low gas cost.
On November 27 2011 15:25 poorcloud wrote:
For one, we may see near 0 energy nexuses. We see so many unused chronoboosts in our top protoss players, even hero constantly has 1 or 2 nexi full of energy in dreamhack during his late game, which he can be using to chronoboost ourt colossi/gateways/upgrades non-stop.
chrono is used from the nearest nexus first, so it is normal that farther away bases from your production buildings stock pile energy.
And after you get 3-4 Bases there are not many things left to chronoboost out, except gateways which is done during important engagements and this is done deliberatly.
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On November 27 2011 17:13 freetgy wrote:well everything is gas heavy for protoss and they can still upgrade... Terran sure is spoiled, by beeing able to afford everything because of low gas cost. Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 15:25 poorcloud wrote:
For one, we may see near 0 energy nexuses. We see so many unused chronoboosts in our top protoss players, even hero constantly has 1 or 2 nexi full of energy in dreamhack during his late game, which he can be using to chronoboost ourt colossi/gateways/upgrades non-stop.
chrono is used from the nearest nexus first, so it is normal that farther away bases from your production buildings stock pile energy. And after you get 3-4 Bases there are not many things left to chronoboost out, except gateways which is done during important engagements and this is done deliberatly.
I wouldn't say that, show me where our gas dump is mid-late game......
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On November 27 2011 16:30 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 14:30 architecture wrote:
Are people still touting inject as a difficult/inferior mechanism? Inject is arguably the strongest mechanic, and vastly outstrips the other races in the late game.
It's simply not true that injects make Z somehow more difficult or demanding at a high level than the other races. Last time I checked T was easily the most mechanically demanding race overall in micromanagement and multitasking, balanced out by straightforward macro mechanics. it's not difficult, but it is inferior in the sense that you miss an inject, you are missing a tonnes more in comparison to missing chrono or mule
You're not thinking far enough.
In the early/mid game all 3 races are extremely impacted by missing their macro mechanics. Almost all crucial timings rely on
proper use of the mechanics. You miss the timing on production, upgrades, and buildings. So it's not really any different. 10s late on inject can lose the game. But 10s late on Colo range can lose the game, and 10s late in a T push can lose the game.
Mid/late game, the macro mechanics are more lenient for all 3 races. Z's have macro hatcheries. P's typically only need to chrono their tech units/remaining upgrades. T's can bank their energy for scans, and only MULE when there's no pending engagement.
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On November 27 2011 16:45 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 15:24 poorcloud wrote:On November 27 2011 14:24 Ziggitz wrote:On November 27 2011 14:03 poorcloud wrote:On November 27 2011 13:59 Ziggitz wrote:On November 27 2011 13:47 cive wrote:On November 27 2011 13:04 kappadevin wrote:
Missing an Inject is more punishing than missing a MULE, but that isn't really a balance related issue. At the highest level neither player should be missing either. In a similar way, missing an SCV cycle is more punishing than letting an extra larva spawn before making two drones at once. You can't say that larvae inject is more punishing than MULE because they are different variables. MULE is a gatherer and a product while larvae inject is increasing the production capacity. The consequence of missing an larvae inject is just more visible and obvious than missing a MULE drop. If larvae inject worries people, there are many solutions. One that I use (because I miss injects lol) is getting a macro hatch pre-lair. Missing a MULE drop is pretty much not an issue in the slightest unless you've missed several in row or you're going pure production into an all in with no non unit production costs like upgrades or tech. If you miss a MULE and then drop two at once, then you've still mined the same amount of minerals and your tech is primarily limited by gas. A lot of the time you can miss MULEs with zero consequences. Well, if i was a zerg player, i can also get supply blocked with no consequences since i can just store up larva and then build drones, while protoss and terran miss out on scvs + production when they get supply blocked. Every race have their own unique mechanics i suppose. Not even close to accurate. After Terran and Protoss get enough workers to constantly produce workers from their main structure(i.e. when the game clock hits zero seconds) Their worker production is constant minus the build time of the orbital and taking chrono boosts into account. Meanwhile Zerg can and has to produce workers with as many of their larvae as they can get away with. This also means if you use all 10 larvae per minute on drones from a hatch with a queen, you can spend 500 minerals per minute on drones, which in the early game with 2 hatches and queens means up to 1000 minerals per minute, i.e. all of your early game economy if you can get away with it. Because of this you produce drones to mine minerals to make more drones meaning that any delay at an early stage of drone production has an exponential effect on your economy. Zerg are affected the most by early supply blocks. Even more so if they are a queen short whilst supply blocked as the hatchery that needs that queen will be running at less than half production capacity. But don't the same logic work for terran and protoss? If i miss a mule, it means i may get less money at this point of time --> unable to put down production facilties on time --> overcompensate on production facilities --> lost money? And if terran and zerg has both 15 drones and both get supply blocked for a min. Terran can only produce 1 scv onwards after that while zerg can produce 10 after that. Zerg will thus get more exponentially ahead. I think your just looking at how bad it is to get supply blocked as zerg and deciding on its opportunity costs when you fail to realise that it is even more crucial for other races to not get supply blocked. When Terran and Protoss are building their economy up they need 6 probes or scvs to produce workers constantly without chrono boost from their command center or nexus. Their worker production is constant. If you lose 1 worker you will be one worker down from how many you would normally have until the point at which you have enough workers. If Terran loses 3 scvs they'll be constantly 3 scvs down. If zerg loses 3 drones then by the next production cycle those 3 drones would have mined enough for 2 more drones, now you're 5 drones down, if those now nonexistant 5 drones mined for another 40 second production cycle they'd have mined enough for 3 more drones putting you 8 drones down in just 80 seconds. If you are terran and you lost 3 scvs in the same situation you lost 3 scvs and their worth of mining over those 80 seconds and thats it.
Absolutely absurd analysis. People have their reality distortion fields on. Read your argument again, it's completely nonsensical.
The only differences are:
1. Drone production is linked to army production, and this is mostly an issue in early game if you take severe drone AND army losses. If you only take 1 type of loss and trade against their army, then you will be mostly OK. If you take army + drone losses, that's game.
2. If Z loses large number of drones late game, say to a storm drop, Z has the option if they are not under pressure to redrone in 30s. P does not have this option. T is OK, if he has enough OCs.
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On November 27 2011 16:00 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 15:40 DaCruise wrote:
Dunno if this has been brought up but I really think its stupid that high templars can feedback Thors and especially bc´s.
I understand that carriers suck but that doesnt mean that bc´s have to suck as well and right now they do and mainly because of feedback.
I hate the fact that 1 small bio unit can instantly take 50% off a bc´s health. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
I play zerg myself so I dont talk from personal experience but I watch A LOT of streams and tournaments and whenever a terran switches to bc´s he loses cause of feedback.
What I would like is for the yamato cannon to come on a cooldown (maybe 1 min?) and ofc to see the energy bar removed from bc´s.
This will in no way break TvP. Blink stalkers are still excellent against bc´s and they are not immune to storms either. Did you know that Stalkers alone are NOT cost efficient against Battlecruisers? 1 BC (400/300) can kill 4 stalkers (500/200) regardless of upgrades (3/3 BC kills 4 3/3/3 stalkers). 1 BC with Yamato can kill 5 stalkers (625/250). And I didn't even factor in a random Raven for PDD or 10 SCVs to repair. Feedback let stalkers be cost efficient against BCs. Just for the sake of comparison, did you know that Marines ARE cost efficient against Carriers? 8 3/3 marines (400/0) can kill 1 3/3/3 full carrier (450/250) I agree that TvP is hard for Terran, but believe me, BCs are not a Terran weakness...
In regards to your bc vs stalker comparison I think it sounds pretty fair that 1 bc can kill 4 stalkers as the bc requires more gas. Btw did you factor blink into this. If not then that just makes stalkers that much better.
I deliberatly left out ravens and such out of the picture to keep it simple but now that you bring it up templars can feedback the raven and storm the scv´s.
As said, I dont play terran or toss but believe me, BC´s are a terran weakness. If that was not the case we would see them be utilized much much more in TvP. SC2 has been out long enough for players to incorperate bc´s in their army if they had any real use but templars with feedback removes that option and as a result terrans stay on tier 1 units all game long.
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BC's are shit because you have 130-150 food of army. 100-120 food is MM, 30 food is support.
How much of that is BC? BC is strictly less DPS than any other component of the T army, and as long as the majority of the composition is bio, it provides no benefit, since it doesn't address HT/Colo.
If you could suddenly convert your 100 food of core DPS into BC, then that would be OK because of how strong BC's are. That's 16 BC's and would take, out of FOUR ports, 6m to get. P could remax 3 times by then.
With the redline upgrade in HOTS, BC will probably be converted into a harassment tool. 1-2 BC to roam the map and harass is not bad. You will force a significant stalker count to be made and out position to defend the far 4-5 bases.
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On November 27 2011 17:28 architecture wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 16:45 Ziggitz wrote:On November 27 2011 15:24 poorcloud wrote:On November 27 2011 14:24 Ziggitz wrote:On November 27 2011 14:03 poorcloud wrote:On November 27 2011 13:59 Ziggitz wrote:On November 27 2011 13:47 cive wrote:On November 27 2011 13:04 kappadevin wrote:
Missing an Inject is more punishing than missing a MULE, but that isn't really a balance related issue. At the highest level neither player should be missing either. In a similar way, missing an SCV cycle is more punishing than letting an extra larva spawn before making two drones at once. You can't say that larvae inject is more punishing than MULE because they are different variables. MULE is a gatherer and a product while larvae inject is increasing the production capacity. The consequence of missing an larvae inject is just more visible and obvious than missing a MULE drop. If larvae inject worries people, there are many solutions. One that I use (because I miss injects lol) is getting a macro hatch pre-lair. Missing a MULE drop is pretty much not an issue in the slightest unless you've missed several in row or you're going pure production into an all in with no non unit production costs like upgrades or tech. If you miss a MULE and then drop two at once, then you've still mined the same amount of minerals and your tech is primarily limited by gas. A lot of the time you can miss MULEs with zero consequences. Well, if i was a zerg player, i can also get supply blocked with no consequences since i can just store up larva and then build drones, while protoss and terran miss out on scvs + production when they get supply blocked. Every race have their own unique mechanics i suppose. Not even close to accurate. After Terran and Protoss get enough workers to constantly produce workers from their main structure(i.e. when the game clock hits zero seconds) Their worker production is constant minus the build time of the orbital and taking chrono boosts into account. Meanwhile Zerg can and has to produce workers with as many of their larvae as they can get away with. This also means if you use all 10 larvae per minute on drones from a hatch with a queen, you can spend 500 minerals per minute on drones, which in the early game with 2 hatches and queens means up to 1000 minerals per minute, i.e. all of your early game economy if you can get away with it. Because of this you produce drones to mine minerals to make more drones meaning that any delay at an early stage of drone production has an exponential effect on your economy. Zerg are affected the most by early supply blocks. Even more so if they are a queen short whilst supply blocked as the hatchery that needs that queen will be running at less than half production capacity. But don't the same logic work for terran and protoss? If i miss a mule, it means i may get less money at this point of time --> unable to put down production facilties on time --> overcompensate on production facilities --> lost money? And if terran and zerg has both 15 drones and both get supply blocked for a min. Terran can only produce 1 scv onwards after that while zerg can produce 10 after that. Zerg will thus get more exponentially ahead. I think your just looking at how bad it is to get supply blocked as zerg and deciding on its opportunity costs when you fail to realise that it is even more crucial for other races to not get supply blocked. When Terran and Protoss are building their economy up they need 6 probes or scvs to produce workers constantly without chrono boost from their command center or nexus. Their worker production is constant. If you lose 1 worker you will be one worker down from how many you would normally have until the point at which you have enough workers. If Terran loses 3 scvs they'll be constantly 3 scvs down. If zerg loses 3 drones then by the next production cycle those 3 drones would have mined enough for 2 more drones, now you're 5 drones down, if those now nonexistant 5 drones mined for another 40 second production cycle they'd have mined enough for 3 more drones putting you 8 drones down in just 80 seconds. If you are terran and you lost 3 scvs in the same situation you lost 3 scvs and their worth of mining over those 80 seconds and thats it. Absolutely absurd analysis. People have their reality distortion fields on. Read your argument again, it's completely nonsensical. The only differences are: 1. Drone production is linked to army production, and this is mostly an issue in early game if you take severe drone AND army losses. If you only take 1 type of loss and trade against their army, then you will be mostly OK. If you take army + drone losses, that's game. 2. If Z loses large number of drones late game, say to a storm drop, Z has the option if they are not under pressure to redrone in 30s. P does not have this option. T is OK, if he has enough OCs.
You disingenuous prick. You call my argument nonsensical and then fail to quantify any of your points. Perhaps you'd like to quantify what heavy losses would be or how much production in excess Zerg has than is necessary to keep up or when a macro hatch is necessary. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don't have a fucking clue and you're a complete hypocrite.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
