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On November 09 2011 03:28 Poehalcho wrote:
I feel like a total intruder here, but I'll give it a try .__.
Problem:
So apparently the Terran 1/1/1 has been a problem for the Protoss for a while now.
Here's a possible solution that popped up into my head an hour ago.
What if Chronoboost got buffed to from 50% to 75%? -keep in mind the numbers can be altered
I think this solution deals with 2 problems at the same time. The apparent 'MULE OP' and Protoss' inability to produce quickly enough to deal with 1/1/1.
So what might the side effects be?
I imagine Zerg perhaps being thrown in the UP corner. I think that could be fixed with a minor tweak on the larve spawn time. from 15sec -> 14sec perhaps?
Any side effects with that?
Can't think of anything negative. At best it would create an opportunity for zerg to become a little bit more aggressive instead of playing the reaction style.
(now I sit back and hope I don't get too much rage .__.)
As a Protoss, I can tell you that this would make my race ridiculously good. It would unlock a set of timing attacks of a whole new grade against every race. I assume you know how strong the 1-1-1 is against Protoss? It would be something like that against every race. 2gate and 4gate versus Zerg would be unstoppable. Zerg just couldn't get enough Spines and lings up in time. Void Ray cheese would be obscenely strong against Terran, and the difficulty in scouting whether it was a Gateway timing or a Void Ray build or a White-ra Prism build would be just as bad as the 1-1-1. I don't even want to THINK about PvP.
The problem with Protoss right now is that the race lends itself to timing attacks more than anything else. These timing attacks have been nerfed to reasonable levels, but the rest of the race is so weak as a result that it is a serious struggle for a Protoss to win a straight game without timing attacks that approach all-ins in their intensity (or deathballs, which have gotten weaker and weaker over time as players have figured out to beat them). To fix Protoss, the ability to hit timings needs to be reduced and the overall strength of the race needs to be increased.
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On November 09 2011 03:49 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 03:28 Poehalcho wrote:
I feel like a total intruder here, but I'll give it a try .__.
Problem:
So apparently the Terran 1/1/1 has been a problem for the Protoss for a while now.
Here's a possible solution that popped up into my head an hour ago.
What if Chronoboost got buffed to from 50% to 75%? -keep in mind the numbers can be altered
I think this solution deals with 2 problems at the same time. The apparent 'MULE OP' and Protoss' inability to produce quickly enough to deal with 1/1/1.
So what might the side effects be?
I imagine Zerg perhaps being thrown in the UP corner. I think that could be fixed with a minor tweak on the larve spawn time. from 15sec -> 14sec perhaps?
Any side effects with that?
Can't think of anything negative. At best it would create an opportunity for zerg to become a little bit more aggressive instead of playing the reaction style.
(now I sit back and hope I don't get too much rage .__.)
As a Protoss, I can tell you that this would make my race ridiculously good. It would unlock a set of timing attacks of a whole new grade against every race. I assume you know how strong the 1-1-1 is against Protoss? It would be something like that against every race. 2gate and 4gate versus Zerg would be unstoppable. Zerg just couldn't get enough Spines and lings up in time. Void Ray cheese would be obscenely strong against Terran, and the difficulty in scouting whether it was a Gateway timing or a Void Ray build or a White-ra Prism build would be just as bad as the 1-1-1. I don't even want to THINK about PvP. The problem with Protoss right now is that the race lends itself to timing attacks more than anything else. These timing attacks have been nerfed to reasonable levels, but the rest of the race is so weak as a result that it is a serious struggle for a Protoss to win a straight game without timing attacks that approach all-ins in their intensity (or deathballs, which have gotten weaker and weaker over time as players have figured out to beat them). To fix Protoss, the ability to hit timings needs to be reduced and the overall strength of the race needs to be increased.
Good post, friend. You make some solid points about Protoss being timing oriented and I agree. The Colossus timing is really strong at elast until diamond. In masters I've seen a resurgence of 4 gates and occasional stargate play, but mostly 2/2 chargelot +/- templar timings. With good scouting, reaction and micro, these timings are all defendable; as they should be.
Do you have any sugestions on how to remedy the situation? I think Protoss needs more ability to micro in PvT. I've suggested having Manual Charging Zealots be more powerful ( less cooldown). I think that is amazing idea. "Sick Charge!" They would say. You could use them to charge behind stutter stepping marauders. Other than that I think the only evolution we have yet to see from protoss is warp prism placement for remaxing after battles. Imagine if asyou tsutter step away from chargelots, each one you kill is warped in behind you. Protoss regularly store 40 food in gateways in lategame scenarios, should be quite strong.
Other than that carriers anyone? (lol)
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On November 09 2011 04:58 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 03:49 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 03:28 Poehalcho wrote:
I feel like a total intruder here, but I'll give it a try .__.
Problem:
So apparently the Terran 1/1/1 has been a problem for the Protoss for a while now.
Here's a possible solution that popped up into my head an hour ago.
What if Chronoboost got buffed to from 50% to 75%? -keep in mind the numbers can be altered
I think this solution deals with 2 problems at the same time. The apparent 'MULE OP' and Protoss' inability to produce quickly enough to deal with 1/1/1.
So what might the side effects be?
I imagine Zerg perhaps being thrown in the UP corner. I think that could be fixed with a minor tweak on the larve spawn time. from 15sec -> 14sec perhaps?
Any side effects with that?
Can't think of anything negative. At best it would create an opportunity for zerg to become a little bit more aggressive instead of playing the reaction style.
(now I sit back and hope I don't get too much rage .__.)
As a Protoss, I can tell you that this would make my race ridiculously good. It would unlock a set of timing attacks of a whole new grade against every race. I assume you know how strong the 1-1-1 is against Protoss? It would be something like that against every race. 2gate and 4gate versus Zerg would be unstoppable. Zerg just couldn't get enough Spines and lings up in time. Void Ray cheese would be obscenely strong against Terran, and the difficulty in scouting whether it was a Gateway timing or a Void Ray build or a White-ra Prism build would be just as bad as the 1-1-1. I don't even want to THINK about PvP. The problem with Protoss right now is that the race lends itself to timing attacks more than anything else. These timing attacks have been nerfed to reasonable levels, but the rest of the race is so weak as a result that it is a serious struggle for a Protoss to win a straight game without timing attacks that approach all-ins in their intensity (or deathballs, which have gotten weaker and weaker over time as players have figured out to beat them). To fix Protoss, the ability to hit timings needs to be reduced and the overall strength of the race needs to be increased. Good post, friend. You make some solid points about Protoss being timing oriented and I agree. The Colossus timing is really strong at elast until diamond. In masters I've seen a resurgence of 4 gates and occasional stargate play, but mostly 2/2 chargelot +/- templar timings. With good scouting, reaction and micro, these timings are all defendable; as they should be. Do you have any sugestions on how to remedy the situation? I think Protoss needs more ability to micro in PvT. I've suggested having Manual Charging Zealots be more powerful ( less cooldown). I think that is amazing idea. "Sick Charge!" They would say. You could use them to charge behind stutter stepping marauders. Other than that I think the only evolution we have yet to see from protoss is warp prism placement for remaxing after battles. Imagine if asyou tsutter step away from chargelots, each one you kill is warped in behind you. Protoss regularly store 40 food in gateways in lategame scenarios, should be quite strong. Other than that carriers anyone? (lol)
Manual Zealot Charge would be interesting, but evades the primary issue with Protoss: the timing of Warp Gate. Warp Gate is simply not balanceable at Cyber tech. It makes early rushes WAY too strong, or balances them and makes any kind of defense way too weak. It needs to be unlocked at Twilight Council or even Templar Archives tech, and Protoss units before then rebalanced accordingly. Micro will follow from that to some degree, as it'll actually matter how the Protoss moves their units because they won't just up and die. Oh, and the Colossus needs to just be removed. I'm in disbelief how horrible its design is.
I'd also like to see a Carrier movespeed upgrade, but that's just me.
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On November 09 2011 05:06 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 04:58 Techno wrote:On November 09 2011 03:49 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 03:28 Poehalcho wrote:
I feel like a total intruder here, but I'll give it a try .__.
Problem:
So apparently the Terran 1/1/1 has been a problem for the Protoss for a while now.
Here's a possible solution that popped up into my head an hour ago.
What if Chronoboost got buffed to from 50% to 75%? -keep in mind the numbers can be altered
I think this solution deals with 2 problems at the same time. The apparent 'MULE OP' and Protoss' inability to produce quickly enough to deal with 1/1/1.
So what might the side effects be?
I imagine Zerg perhaps being thrown in the UP corner. I think that could be fixed with a minor tweak on the larve spawn time. from 15sec -> 14sec perhaps?
Any side effects with that?
Can't think of anything negative. At best it would create an opportunity for zerg to become a little bit more aggressive instead of playing the reaction style.
(now I sit back and hope I don't get too much rage .__.)
As a Protoss, I can tell you that this would make my race ridiculously good. It would unlock a set of timing attacks of a whole new grade against every race. I assume you know how strong the 1-1-1 is against Protoss? It would be something like that against every race. 2gate and 4gate versus Zerg would be unstoppable. Zerg just couldn't get enough Spines and lings up in time. Void Ray cheese would be obscenely strong against Terran, and the difficulty in scouting whether it was a Gateway timing or a Void Ray build or a White-ra Prism build would be just as bad as the 1-1-1. I don't even want to THINK about PvP. The problem with Protoss right now is that the race lends itself to timing attacks more than anything else. These timing attacks have been nerfed to reasonable levels, but the rest of the race is so weak as a result that it is a serious struggle for a Protoss to win a straight game without timing attacks that approach all-ins in their intensity (or deathballs, which have gotten weaker and weaker over time as players have figured out to beat them). To fix Protoss, the ability to hit timings needs to be reduced and the overall strength of the race needs to be increased. Good post, friend. You make some solid points about Protoss being timing oriented and I agree. The Colossus timing is really strong at elast until diamond. In masters I've seen a resurgence of 4 gates and occasional stargate play, but mostly 2/2 chargelot +/- templar timings. With good scouting, reaction and micro, these timings are all defendable; as they should be. Do you have any sugestions on how to remedy the situation? I think Protoss needs more ability to micro in PvT. I've suggested having Manual Charging Zealots be more powerful ( less cooldown). I think that is amazing idea. "Sick Charge!" They would say. You could use them to charge behind stutter stepping marauders. Other than that I think the only evolution we have yet to see from protoss is warp prism placement for remaxing after battles. Imagine if asyou tsutter step away from chargelots, each one you kill is warped in behind you. Protoss regularly store 40 food in gateways in lategame scenarios, should be quite strong. Other than that carriers anyone? (lol) Manual Zealot Charge would be interesting, but evades the primary issue with Protoss: the timing of Warp Gate. Warp Gate is simply not balanceable at Cyber tech. It makes early rushes WAY too strong, or balances them and makes any kind of defense way too weak. It needs to be unlocked at Twilight Council or even Templar Archives tech, and Protoss units before then rebalanced accordingly. Micro will follow from that to some degree, as it'll actually matter how the Protoss moves their units because they won't just up and die. Oh, and the Colossus needs to just be removed. I'm in disbelief how horrible its design is. I'd also like to see a Carrier movespeed upgrade, but that's just me.
You speak so much sense, sir! I remember how suprised I was when I found out the sentry and warp gate tech are tier 1.5. Its just silly. If you couldnt FF bunkers at 8 minutes and warp in 4+ units at his door, then Protoss gateway units could be stronger. How could the Colossus be changed? Fuck it, just make it a reaver. Strangely enuogh though, I think Mech woud need a bit of a buff if Zealots were to be buffed at all, beacause if the Colossus is a reaver bio would be crap. I already go mech vs Protoss on maps that its do able (shakuras, xel naga to a lesser degree, shattered if your gosu) and its do able, but if you leave any significant amount of immortals un-empd you kinda get stomped. And I think my mech might only be working on maps other than shakuras because the Protosses never see it. If they see it more they would expand wayyyy faster cause I literally never move out. Just siege up and pick away at him.
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On November 09 2011 05:15 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 05:06 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 04:58 Techno wrote:On November 09 2011 03:49 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 03:28 Poehalcho wrote:
I feel like a total intruder here, but I'll give it a try .__.
Problem:
So apparently the Terran 1/1/1 has been a problem for the Protoss for a while now.
Here's a possible solution that popped up into my head an hour ago.
What if Chronoboost got buffed to from 50% to 75%? -keep in mind the numbers can be altered
I think this solution deals with 2 problems at the same time. The apparent 'MULE OP' and Protoss' inability to produce quickly enough to deal with 1/1/1.
So what might the side effects be?
I imagine Zerg perhaps being thrown in the UP corner. I think that could be fixed with a minor tweak on the larve spawn time. from 15sec -> 14sec perhaps?
Any side effects with that?
Can't think of anything negative. At best it would create an opportunity for zerg to become a little bit more aggressive instead of playing the reaction style.
(now I sit back and hope I don't get too much rage .__.)
As a Protoss, I can tell you that this would make my race ridiculously good. It would unlock a set of timing attacks of a whole new grade against every race. I assume you know how strong the 1-1-1 is against Protoss? It would be something like that against every race. 2gate and 4gate versus Zerg would be unstoppable. Zerg just couldn't get enough Spines and lings up in time. Void Ray cheese would be obscenely strong against Terran, and the difficulty in scouting whether it was a Gateway timing or a Void Ray build or a White-ra Prism build would be just as bad as the 1-1-1. I don't even want to THINK about PvP. The problem with Protoss right now is that the race lends itself to timing attacks more than anything else. These timing attacks have been nerfed to reasonable levels, but the rest of the race is so weak as a result that it is a serious struggle for a Protoss to win a straight game without timing attacks that approach all-ins in their intensity (or deathballs, which have gotten weaker and weaker over time as players have figured out to beat them). To fix Protoss, the ability to hit timings needs to be reduced and the overall strength of the race needs to be increased. Good post, friend. You make some solid points about Protoss being timing oriented and I agree. The Colossus timing is really strong at elast until diamond. In masters I've seen a resurgence of 4 gates and occasional stargate play, but mostly 2/2 chargelot +/- templar timings. With good scouting, reaction and micro, these timings are all defendable; as they should be. Do you have any sugestions on how to remedy the situation? I think Protoss needs more ability to micro in PvT. I've suggested having Manual Charging Zealots be more powerful ( less cooldown). I think that is amazing idea. "Sick Charge!" They would say. You could use them to charge behind stutter stepping marauders. Other than that I think the only evolution we have yet to see from protoss is warp prism placement for remaxing after battles. Imagine if asyou tsutter step away from chargelots, each one you kill is warped in behind you. Protoss regularly store 40 food in gateways in lategame scenarios, should be quite strong. Other than that carriers anyone? (lol) Manual Zealot Charge would be interesting, but evades the primary issue with Protoss: the timing of Warp Gate. Warp Gate is simply not balanceable at Cyber tech. It makes early rushes WAY too strong, or balances them and makes any kind of defense way too weak. It needs to be unlocked at Twilight Council or even Templar Archives tech, and Protoss units before then rebalanced accordingly. Micro will follow from that to some degree, as it'll actually matter how the Protoss moves their units because they won't just up and die. Oh, and the Colossus needs to just be removed. I'm in disbelief how horrible its design is. I'd also like to see a Carrier movespeed upgrade, but that's just me. You speak so much sense, sir! I remember how suprised I was when I found out the sentry and warp gate tech are tier 1.5. Its just silly. If you couldnt FF bunkers at 8 minutes and warp in 4+ units at his door, then Protoss gateway units could be stronger. How could the Colossus be changed? Fuck it, just make it a reaver. Strangely enuogh though, I think Mech woud need a bit of a buff if Zealots were to be buffed at all, beacause if the Colossus is a reaver bio would be crap. I already go mech vs Protoss on maps that its do able (shakuras, xel naga to a lesser degree, shattered if your gosu) and its do able, but if you leave any significant amount of immortals un-empd you kinda get stomped. And I think my mech might only be working on maps other than shakuras because the Protosses never see it. If they see it more they would expand wayyyy faster cause I literally never move out. Just siege up and pick away at him.
I'm just going to make this simple and make a list of units that are fundamentally broken in their very concept, in that they can't be balanced and hurt the game by their very presence.
1. Colossus: stacking splash damage without movement restriction. There's a reason Reavers sucked in high numbers and Siege Tanks had to be put in Siege Mode. This unit literally cannot be balanced and has to be removed.
2. Marauder: high-mobility, high-damage unit... FOR TERRAN. Concussive Shells break micro, their high health makes splash damage worse, and they're just too good against everything Armored. There's a reason that BW Terran relied on Vultures for map control: anything else would be broken. You can't have Protoss-tier shock troops and rock-solid defenses, and Concussive Shells breaks that unit wide open.
3. Immortal: it's a Stalker, only a little slower, much higher in damage, and it makes mech non-viable by its sheer presence. Kind of ridiculous.
4. Mutalisk: flocks of Mutalisks are just too good, while small Muta counts are just too weak. Exact reversal of BW. I'll admit this problem is mostly due to the lack of good AA splash for Protoss (Archons don't deal damage fast enough, Storms land too slowly and don't do damage fast enough). Maybe the Tempest would help; I'd personally like to see a splash damage upgrade for the Phoenix.
5. Hellion: it's just not balanced to have a unit that can annihilate a worker line instantly. Vultures were slow but sure damage. They were good. Hellions are just too much.
6. Banshee: it's a unit that demolishes workers, can join a main army for solid DPS, and can cloak. It's what breaks the 1-1-1.
7. Sentry (at its current tech level): allowing Protoss to make any fight in the early game uneven means that Protoss units can't win in a straight fight. Huh. Go figure. Plus, as you said, the bunker FF makes dedicated attacks far too strong.
8. Hydralisk: ridiculously high damage, but hard countered by Colossi. If the Protoss has at least one Colossus, they win. If they don't, they lose. That's probably a little extreme, but you get the idea. There need to be some changes to the unit.
9. Corruptor: stupidly powerful antiair. Along with the Viking, it is the reason Protoss cannot build Carriers. What's broken is that it's a hard counter that can be produced in large numbers in a very short amount of time. This means that it is impossible to get a reasonably high count of capital ships up against a Zerg, because they just need to scout it within a 2-3 minute timespan in order to be able to hard counter it with equal or higher supply. On the flip side, it means that it's very easy for a Zerg to overproduce Corruptors and get wrecked by the Stalker remax. Whoops.
That's all that comes to mind right now. There are also broken mechanics, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.
I can't ever remember losing to a meching Terran. The second I scout Tanks and an expansion, I take a third and go straight for a high count of Chargelots and Blink Stalkers. Breaks the Terran the second he tries to move out, and if he doesn't, I start working with drops and get Immortals out. Mech needs a lot to change before it can become viable. I think the Warhound might help, as well as the Shredder.
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This is not a complaint I just want to know what you guys think about this as I can't find a discussion about it.
Zerg is the only race that has a solid requirement for 3/3 upgrades. Think about it, the requirement for Toss and Terran to get 2/2 is there same requirement for 3/3, twilight council and the armory. It has been stated in other threads (namely zerg strat) that zerg needs to focus on upgrades because of their inferior army. Making double evo very viable for zerg players. I always get upset when protoss always rush 3 attack upgrade before I can get my hive up, if more toss did double forge they would get to 3/3 way before I can get to 3/3/3. Sure there are hive rush builds that can fix this, but they're mostly builds based around rushing brood lords, not ups.
So, do we/I just need to get Hive earlier, and it is balanced. Or is it really lame that the other races can grab 3/3 without a new tech building required compared to the hive taking I think 100 seconds to build. This especially came to mind with the latest patch decreasing toss upgrade costs.
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On November 09 2011 07:54 SargonTheGreat wrote:
This is not a complaint I just want to know what you guys think about this as I can't find a discussion about it.
Zerg is the only race that has a solid requirement for 3/3 upgrades. Think about it, the requirement for Toss and Terran to get 2/2 is there same requirement for 3/3, twilight council and the armory. It has been stated in other threads (namely zerg strat) that zerg needs to focus on upgrades because of their inferior army. Making double evo very viable for zerg players. I always get upset when protoss always rush 3 attack upgrade before I can get my hive up, if more toss did double forge they would get to 3/3 way before I can get to 3/3/3. Sure there are hive rush builds that can fix this, but they're mostly builds based around rushing brood lords, not ups.
So, do we/I just need to get Hive earlier, and it is balanced. Or is it really lame that the other races can grab 3/3 without a new tech building required compared to the hive taking I think 100 seconds to build. This especially came to mind with the latest patch decreasing toss upgrade costs.
That's an interesting thought I hadn't considered before. I don't think allowing 3/3 on Lair tech alone would be game breaking from my point of view, be interested to see what some higher level players would have to say.
Mind you, I do think Zerg players don't tech up to Hive fast enough most of the time, and when they do they sort of have this opinion that "Oh I'm on hive, I have to make Blords or Ultras" when I'd just be happy to see some zerg get hive for adrenal and +3 timings or something like that =D
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An Idea struck me. And I wonder what TL thinks about it.
Zerg is having some trouble against the Ghost snipe, just a little.
A snipe cost 25 energy, does 45 damage and has 10 range. (90 damage for 50 energy)
Transfuse costs 50 energy, heals 125 points and has 7 range. (62.5 damage for 25 energy)
In theory the transfuse is straightup more effective than the snipe.
But there needs to be taken into account that the Ghost can EMP queens.
This will make it harder to counter snipe with Transfuse.
Even though there is an EMP. I believe that when going Broodlord the Ghosts should be easily held out of the Queens range while the queens can mass transfuse the snipes.
With an Ultralord composition this would be harder. But even then I dont think that Terrans like the idea that their Ghosts are only 2 range away from the Ultralisks to EMP the Queens, and since the queens are in the back supporting they should be relatively easy to split.
What do you guys think?
edit: typossss
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On November 09 2011 04:58 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 03:49 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 03:28 Poehalcho wrote:
I feel like a total intruder here, but I'll give it a try .__.
Problem:
So apparently the Terran 1/1/1 has been a problem for the Protoss for a while now.
Here's a possible solution that popped up into my head an hour ago.
What if Chronoboost got buffed to from 50% to 75%? -keep in mind the numbers can be altered
I think this solution deals with 2 problems at the same time. The apparent 'MULE OP' and Protoss' inability to produce quickly enough to deal with 1/1/1.
So what might the side effects be?
I imagine Zerg perhaps being thrown in the UP corner. I think that could be fixed with a minor tweak on the larve spawn time. from 15sec -> 14sec perhaps?
Any side effects with that?
Can't think of anything negative. At best it would create an opportunity for zerg to become a little bit more aggressive instead of playing the reaction style.
(now I sit back and hope I don't get too much rage .__.)
As a Protoss, I can tell you that this would make my race ridiculously good. It would unlock a set of timing attacks of a whole new grade against every race. I assume you know how strong the 1-1-1 is against Protoss? It would be something like that against every race. 2gate and 4gate versus Zerg would be unstoppable. Zerg just couldn't get enough Spines and lings up in time. Void Ray cheese would be obscenely strong against Terran, and the difficulty in scouting whether it was a Gateway timing or a Void Ray build or a White-ra Prism build would be just as bad as the 1-1-1. I don't even want to THINK about PvP. The problem with Protoss right now is that the race lends itself to timing attacks more than anything else. These timing attacks have been nerfed to reasonable levels, but the rest of the race is so weak as a result that it is a serious struggle for a Protoss to win a straight game without timing attacks that approach all-ins in their intensity (or deathballs, which have gotten weaker and weaker over time as players have figured out to beat them). To fix Protoss, the ability to hit timings needs to be reduced and the overall strength of the race needs to be increased. Good post, friend. You make some solid points about Protoss being timing oriented and I agree. The Colossus timing is really strong at elast until diamond. In masters I've seen a resurgence of 4 gates and occasional stargate play, but mostly 2/2 chargelot +/- templar timings. With good scouting, reaction and micro, these timings are all defendable; as they should be. Do you have any sugestions on how to remedy the situation? I think Protoss needs more ability to micro in PvT. I've suggested having Manual Charging Zealots be more powerful ( less cooldown). I think that is amazing idea. "Sick Charge!" They would say. You could use them to charge behind stutter stepping marauders. Other than that I think the only evolution we have yet to see from protoss is warp prism placement for remaxing after battles. Imagine if asyou tsutter step away from chargelots, each one you kill is warped in behind you. Protoss regularly store 40 food in gateways in lategame scenarios, should be quite strong. Other than that carriers anyone? (lol)
You CAN actually manually charge. It invovled clicking on the charge icon and turning it off and on.
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On November 09 2011 06:22 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 05:15 Techno wrote:On November 09 2011 05:06 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 04:58 Techno wrote:On November 09 2011 03:49 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 03:28 Poehalcho wrote:
I feel like a total intruder here, but I'll give it a try .__.
Problem:
So apparently the Terran 1/1/1 has been a problem for the Protoss for a while now.
Here's a possible solution that popped up into my head an hour ago.
What if Chronoboost got buffed to from 50% to 75%? -keep in mind the numbers can be altered
I think this solution deals with 2 problems at the same time. The apparent 'MULE OP' and Protoss' inability to produce quickly enough to deal with 1/1/1.
So what might the side effects be?
I imagine Zerg perhaps being thrown in the UP corner. I think that could be fixed with a minor tweak on the larve spawn time. from 15sec -> 14sec perhaps?
Any side effects with that?
Can't think of anything negative. At best it would create an opportunity for zerg to become a little bit more aggressive instead of playing the reaction style.
(now I sit back and hope I don't get too much rage .__.)
As a Protoss, I can tell you that this would make my race ridiculously good. It would unlock a set of timing attacks of a whole new grade against every race. I assume you know how strong the 1-1-1 is against Protoss? It would be something like that against every race. 2gate and 4gate versus Zerg would be unstoppable. Zerg just couldn't get enough Spines and lings up in time. Void Ray cheese would be obscenely strong against Terran, and the difficulty in scouting whether it was a Gateway timing or a Void Ray build or a White-ra Prism build would be just as bad as the 1-1-1. I don't even want to THINK about PvP. The problem with Protoss right now is that the race lends itself to timing attacks more than anything else. These timing attacks have been nerfed to reasonable levels, but the rest of the race is so weak as a result that it is a serious struggle for a Protoss to win a straight game without timing attacks that approach all-ins in their intensity (or deathballs, which have gotten weaker and weaker over time as players have figured out to beat them). To fix Protoss, the ability to hit timings needs to be reduced and the overall strength of the race needs to be increased. Good post, friend. You make some solid points about Protoss being timing oriented and I agree. The Colossus timing is really strong at elast until diamond. In masters I've seen a resurgence of 4 gates and occasional stargate play, but mostly 2/2 chargelot +/- templar timings. With good scouting, reaction and micro, these timings are all defendable; as they should be. Do you have any sugestions on how to remedy the situation? I think Protoss needs more ability to micro in PvT. I've suggested having Manual Charging Zealots be more powerful ( less cooldown). I think that is amazing idea. "Sick Charge!" They would say. You could use them to charge behind stutter stepping marauders. Other than that I think the only evolution we have yet to see from protoss is warp prism placement for remaxing after battles. Imagine if asyou tsutter step away from chargelots, each one you kill is warped in behind you. Protoss regularly store 40 food in gateways in lategame scenarios, should be quite strong. Other than that carriers anyone? (lol) Manual Zealot Charge would be interesting, but evades the primary issue with Protoss: the timing of Warp Gate. Warp Gate is simply not balanceable at Cyber tech. It makes early rushes WAY too strong, or balances them and makes any kind of defense way too weak. It needs to be unlocked at Twilight Council or even Templar Archives tech, and Protoss units before then rebalanced accordingly. Micro will follow from that to some degree, as it'll actually matter how the Protoss moves their units because they won't just up and die. Oh, and the Colossus needs to just be removed. I'm in disbelief how horrible its design is. I'd also like to see a Carrier movespeed upgrade, but that's just me. You speak so much sense, sir! I remember how suprised I was when I found out the sentry and warp gate tech are tier 1.5. Its just silly. If you couldnt FF bunkers at 8 minutes and warp in 4+ units at his door, then Protoss gateway units could be stronger. How could the Colossus be changed? Fuck it, just make it a reaver. Strangely enuogh though, I think Mech woud need a bit of a buff if Zealots were to be buffed at all, beacause if the Colossus is a reaver bio would be crap. I already go mech vs Protoss on maps that its do able (shakuras, xel naga to a lesser degree, shattered if your gosu) and its do able, but if you leave any significant amount of immortals un-empd you kinda get stomped. And I think my mech might only be working on maps other than shakuras because the Protosses never see it. If they see it more they would expand wayyyy faster cause I literally never move out. Just siege up and pick away at him. I'm just going to make this simple and make a list of units that are fundamentally broken in their very concept, in that they can't be balanced and hurt the game by their very presence. 1. Colossus: stacking splash damage without movement restriction. There's a reason Reavers sucked in high numbers and Siege Tanks had to be put in Siege Mode. This unit literally cannot be balanced and has to be removed. 2. Marauder: high-mobility, high-damage unit... FOR TERRAN. Concussive Shells break micro, their high health makes splash damage worse, and they're just too good against everything Armored. There's a reason that BW Terran relied on Vultures for map control: anything else would be broken. You can't have Protoss-tier shock troops and rock-solid defenses, and Concussive Shells breaks that unit wide open. 3. Immortal: it's a Stalker, only a little slower, much higher in damage, and it makes mech non-viable by its sheer presence. Kind of ridiculous. 4. Mutalisk: flocks of Mutalisks are just too good, while small Muta counts are just too weak. Exact reversal of BW. I'll admit this problem is mostly due to the lack of good AA splash for Protoss (Archons don't deal damage fast enough, Storms land too slowly and don't do damage fast enough). Maybe the Tempest would help; I'd personally like to see a splash damage upgrade for the Phoenix. 5. Hellion: it's just not balanced to have a unit that can annihilate a worker line instantly. Vultures were slow but sure damage. They were good. Hellions are just too much. 6. Banshee: it's a unit that demolishes workers, can join a main army for solid DPS, and can cloak. It's what breaks the 1-1-1. 7. Sentry (at its current tech level): allowing Protoss to make any fight in the early game uneven means that Protoss units can't win in a straight fight. Huh. Go figure. Plus, as you said, the bunker FF makes dedicated attacks far too strong. 8. Hydralisk: ridiculously high damage, but hard countered by Colossi. If the Protoss has at least one Colossus, they win. If they don't, they lose. That's probably a little extreme, but you get the idea. There need to be some changes to the unit. 9. Corruptor: stupidly powerful antiair. Along with the Viking, it is the reason Protoss cannot build Carriers. What's broken is that it's a hard counter that can be produced in large numbers in a very short amount of time. This means that it is impossible to get a reasonably high count of capital ships up against a Zerg, because they just need to scout it within a 2-3 minute timespan in order to be able to hard counter it with equal or higher supply. On the flip side, it means that it's very easy for a Zerg to overproduce Corruptors and get wrecked by the Stalker remax. Whoops. That's all that comes to mind right now. There are also broken mechanics, but that's a whole other kettle of fish. I can't ever remember losing to a meching Terran. The second I scout Tanks and an expansion, I take a third and go straight for a high count of Chargelots and Blink Stalkers. Breaks the Terran the second he tries to move out, and if he doesn't, I start working with drops and get Immortals out. Mech needs a lot to change before it can become viable. I think the Warhound might help, as well as the Shredder.
Dang, now I don't even want to play anymore 
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On November 09 2011 07:54 SargonTheGreat wrote:
This is not a complaint I just want to know what you guys think about this as I can't find a discussion about it.
Zerg is the only race that has a solid requirement for 3/3 upgrades. Think about it, the requirement for Toss and Terran to get 2/2 is there same requirement for 3/3, twilight council and the armory. It has been stated in other threads (namely zerg strat) that zerg needs to focus on upgrades because of their inferior army. Making double evo very viable for zerg players. I always get upset when protoss always rush 3 attack upgrade before I can get my hive up, if more toss did double forge they would get to 3/3 way before I can get to 3/3/3. Sure there are hive rush builds that can fix this, but they're mostly builds based around rushing brood lords, not ups.
So, do we/I just need to get Hive earlier, and it is balanced. Or is it really lame that the other races can grab 3/3 without a new tech building required compared to the hive taking I think 100 seconds to build. This especially came to mind with the latest patch decreasing toss upgrade costs.
Problem is, your basic premise is flawed a little bit. While I think many would have agreed with you back in may, I feel that Zerg units are now proven to be on equal if not better footing than the other races. Roaches, lings and infestors are being used in new ways now. Muta ling is viable in all matchups and we know how good banelings are. I think it's fine that other races might get there ups sooner because they cannot replenish their units as fast as Zerg.
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On November 09 2011 08:14 Deckkie wrote:
An Idea struck me. And I wonder what TL thinks about it.
Zerg is having some trouble against the Ghost snipe, just a little.
A snipe cost 25 energy, does 45 damage and has 10 range. (90 damage for 50 energy)
Transfuse costs 50 energy, heals 125 points and has 7 range. (62.5 damage for 25 energy)
In theory the transfuse is straightup more effective than the snipe.
But there needs to be taken into account that the Ghost can EMP queens.
This will make it harder to counter snipe with Transfuse.
Even though there is an EMP. I believe that when going Broodlord the Ghosts should be easily held out of the Queens range while the queens can mass transfuse the snipes.
With an Ultralord composition this would be harder. But even then I dont think that Terrans like the idea that their Ghosts are only 2 range away from the Ultralisks to EMP the Queens, and since the queens are in the back supporting they should be relatively easy to split.
What do you guys think?
edit: typossss
The simple issue here is action versus reaction. If several Ghosts snipe all at once, it'll deal lethal damage in almost no time at all. There isn't going to be enough time for the Zerg to react and transfuse. Its best shot is obviously with Ultras and Broodlords, but that doesn't mean it'll be incredibly viable. Also, the limited movement of Queens is a right pain. If the Terran retreats, it'll be hard to catch up.
On November 09 2011 08:20 Lore-Fighting wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 04:58 Techno wrote:On November 09 2011 03:49 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 03:28 Poehalcho wrote:
I feel like a total intruder here, but I'll give it a try .__.
Problem:
So apparently the Terran 1/1/1 has been a problem for the Protoss for a while now.
Here's a possible solution that popped up into my head an hour ago.
What if Chronoboost got buffed to from 50% to 75%? -keep in mind the numbers can be altered
I think this solution deals with 2 problems at the same time. The apparent 'MULE OP' and Protoss' inability to produce quickly enough to deal with 1/1/1.
So what might the side effects be?
I imagine Zerg perhaps being thrown in the UP corner. I think that could be fixed with a minor tweak on the larve spawn time. from 15sec -> 14sec perhaps?
Any side effects with that?
Can't think of anything negative. At best it would create an opportunity for zerg to become a little bit more aggressive instead of playing the reaction style.
(now I sit back and hope I don't get too much rage .__.)
As a Protoss, I can tell you that this would make my race ridiculously good. It would unlock a set of timing attacks of a whole new grade against every race. I assume you know how strong the 1-1-1 is against Protoss? It would be something like that against every race. 2gate and 4gate versus Zerg would be unstoppable. Zerg just couldn't get enough Spines and lings up in time. Void Ray cheese would be obscenely strong against Terran, and the difficulty in scouting whether it was a Gateway timing or a Void Ray build or a White-ra Prism build would be just as bad as the 1-1-1. I don't even want to THINK about PvP. The problem with Protoss right now is that the race lends itself to timing attacks more than anything else. These timing attacks have been nerfed to reasonable levels, but the rest of the race is so weak as a result that it is a serious struggle for a Protoss to win a straight game without timing attacks that approach all-ins in their intensity (or deathballs, which have gotten weaker and weaker over time as players have figured out to beat them). To fix Protoss, the ability to hit timings needs to be reduced and the overall strength of the race needs to be increased. Good post, friend. You make some solid points about Protoss being timing oriented and I agree. The Colossus timing is really strong at elast until diamond. In masters I've seen a resurgence of 4 gates and occasional stargate play, but mostly 2/2 chargelot +/- templar timings. With good scouting, reaction and micro, these timings are all defendable; as they should be. Do you have any sugestions on how to remedy the situation? I think Protoss needs more ability to micro in PvT. I've suggested having Manual Charging Zealots be more powerful ( less cooldown). I think that is amazing idea. "Sick Charge!" They would say. You could use them to charge behind stutter stepping marauders. Other than that I think the only evolution we have yet to see from protoss is warp prism placement for remaxing after battles. Imagine if asyou tsutter step away from chargelots, each one you kill is warped in behind you. Protoss regularly store 40 food in gateways in lategame scenarios, should be quite strong. Other than that carriers anyone? (lol) You CAN actually manually charge. It invovled clicking on the charge icon and turning it off and on.
He was suggesting that manual charge get a buff over autocharge, to encourage clicking really fast without any kind of decision-making or control. I'm not the hugest fan. It reminds me of the accepted way to land Feedbacks on Ghosts: you spam F and left click on a bioball until all the Ghosts are dead. Not interesting at all.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On November 09 2011 07:54 SargonTheGreat wrote:
This is not a complaint I just want to know what you guys think about this as I can't find a discussion about it.
Zerg is the only race that has a solid requirement for 3/3 upgrades. Think about it, the requirement for Toss and Terran to get 2/2 is there same requirement for 3/3, twilight council and the armory. It has been stated in other threads (namely zerg strat) that zerg needs to focus on upgrades because of their inferior army. Making double evo very viable for zerg players. I always get upset when protoss always rush 3 attack upgrade before I can get my hive up, if more toss did double forge they would get to 3/3 way before I can get to 3/3/3. Sure there are hive rush builds that can fix this, but they're mostly builds based around rushing brood lords, not ups.
So, do we/I just need to get Hive earlier, and it is balanced. Or is it really lame that the other races can grab 3/3 without a new tech building required compared to the hive taking I think 100 seconds to build. This especially came to mind with the latest patch decreasing toss upgrade costs.
Aria got hive just for upgrades and adrenal glands vs huk, he didnt make hive units for quite a while after i beleive.
Day9 did a daily on it very recently, and husky also covered it, but husky doesnt really understand anything about the game id guess, his recent videos have dissapointed me much... ("I have so many spellcasters" when playing zerg, and running swarm hosts, vipers, roaches etc in 1 control group, using only 2 control groups in total between army and hatcheries)
Anyway, i think its viable to go hive for adrenal glands, its a very powerful upgrade, and lings have among the best upgrade scaling in the game as-is
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Okay, all, I more than a bit of a noob when it comes to playing SC2, but I have watched it since beta. I'm an old hand at gaming, but SC2 is my first RTS that I play seriously.
I'm seeing a lot of commentary about specific units, but when I stepped back and took a look at SC2 as a unit, I noticed something that seems a little out of place. This may help to cause some of the imbalance in the game, it may not. please tell me what you think.
The following is a bit long, and may have errors due to my noobness, so I apologize in advance.
1) Terran.
I hear (read?) that Terran is imba a lot, but I'm not concerned about that. Terran build order, meta-style is: Supply Depot, Barracks, and then starts to branch. Once you have a rax, you can build either an engineering bay or a Factory. The engineering bay lets you upgrade, the factory makes units. Initially, the fac only makes hellions. We all know this. Once you have a factory, you can build a starport, which can also make some of it's full complement of units, but not all without some support buildings. Thus, the 1/1/1. But the core of this is what do you HAVE to build to make the next structure? For the bulk of Terran units, it's another unit producing structure.
2) Zerg.
Zerg have to make a building for every single unit type they make but one. The corrupter, while technically requiring a building of it's own, is the only unit that comes with a structure that makes another unit, specifically the Spire. But again, what does zerg HAVE to build? Spawning Pool, Lair, Infestation Pit, Hive. That's it. All the other buildings are made if you want to make something other than ling/infestor (Ice Fisher units). The general philosophy of zerg, however, seems to be that every single building is a support building, and only one building ever makes anything.
3) Protoss.
Toss are ridiculously strong. Zealots have effectively 150 hp and do obscene damage per hit (dph? lol). But before toss can make ANY OTHER UNIT they HAVE to build a Cybernetics Core. You can't build a Twilight Council for upgrades, you can't build a Robo for Warp Prism, you can't build anything but Gates, Forges, Pylons, Cannons, Zealots, and Probes (oh, and Assimilators and Nexii) until you build a Cyber core. This begs the question, how exactly is toss SUPPOSED to innovate when they are already being forced down a particular tech path? The cybercore enables two more units out of gateways, but it doesn't, of itself, do anything but research upgrades.
Given all this, I state my perception of the problem:
Protoss have a hard time innovating, and thereby evolving their playstyle.
Given all this, I state my suggested (noobish) solution:
1) Make the CyberCore needed for specific units, but allow toss to build a Twilight Council or a Robo after Gate, no CyberCore required.
--Note that without the CyberCore, some units would not be available, perhaps the Immortal and Observer are unlocked by the CyberCore.
2) After Robo, you can build a Stargate, but again, your units are limited. The CyberCore could unlock Void Ray for example, so all you get if you go Gate --> Robo --> Stargate is Pheonixes (maybe bring back the Shuriken?).
3) Add a light ground unit with a ranged attack to the Robo that can be produced without a CyberCore. Terran has Hellions for map control, scouting, and harass. Why not give something to the Protoss? Maybe a lightweight walking photon cannon? No detection and a damage nerf, and a smidge slower than stalkers. Or just make it really fast, but fragile, with less hp than stalkers.
What would this do? Theoretically, this would give toss another avenue to grow. Instead of gate --> core --> tech, a toss could go gate --> council --> Robo, get leg speed and a warp prism and drop the enemy main. Maybe that new light harrass unit would get toss out on the map faster, without the obs or immortals. It could even encourage zealot drop harrass with pheonix support. Has anyone ever tried that? I honestly don't know, but getting that unit composition is difficult until the late game the way the tech tree is structured right now. And are we really going to use zealots and pheonixes in the late game?
That last is a serious question, by the way. I'm too noob to have survived to a late game, and while I've seen zealots and pheonixes in late games, they usually don't make up the core of the army.
What I'm suggesting, to put it bluntly, is that the tech tree itself is stagnating toss evolution of play. Having one building that you absolutely HAVE to build before you can build anything other than your most basic unit is a severe limiting factor in theory. No other race has this handicap.
But maybe toss does need this handicap. What do you think? I honestly don't like the idea of chargelots beating on my door at 4 or 5 minutes, but I must confess I love the idea of doing it to someone else.
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On November 09 2011 08:32 Lokishadow wrote:
Okay, all, I more than a bit of a noob when it comes to playing SC2, but I have watched it since beta. I'm an old hand at gaming, but SC2 is my first RTS that I play seriously.
I'm seeing a lot of commentary about specific units, but when I stepped back and took a look at SC2 as a unit, I noticed something that seems a little out of place. This may help to cause some of the imbalance in the game, it may not. please tell me what you think.
The following is a bit long, and may have errors due to my noobness, so I apologize in advance.
1) Terran.
I hear (read?) that Terran is imba a lot, but I'm not concerned about that. Terran build order, meta-style is: Supply Depot, Barracks, and then starts to branch. Once you have a rax, you can build either an engineering bay or a Factory. The engineering bay lets you upgrade, the factory makes units. Initially, the fac only makes hellions. We all know this. Once you have a factory, you can build a starport, which can also make some of it's full complement of units, but not all without some support buildings. Thus, the 1/1/1. But the core of this is what do you HAVE to build to make the next structure? For the bulk of Terran units, it's another unit producing structure.
2) Zerg.
Zerg have to make a building for every single unit type they make but one. The corrupter, while technically requiring a building of it's own, is the only unit that comes with a structure that makes another unit, specifically the Spire. But again, what does zerg HAVE to build? Spawning Pool, Lair, Infestation Pit, Hive. That's it. All the other buildings are made if you want to make something other than ling/infestor (Ice Fisher units). The general philosophy of zerg, however, seems to be that every single building is a support building, and only one building ever makes anything.
3) Protoss.
Toss are ridiculously strong. Zealots have effectively 150 hp and do obscene damage per hit (dph? lol). But before toss can make ANY OTHER UNIT they HAVE to build a Cybernetics Core. You can't build a Twilight Council for upgrades, you can't build a Robo for Warp Prism, you can't build anything but Gates, Forges, Pylons, Cannons, Zealots, and Probes (oh, and Assimilators and Nexii) until you build a Cyber core. This begs the question, how exactly is toss SUPPOSED to innovate when they are already being forced down a particular tech path? The cybercore enables two more units out of gateways, but it doesn't, of itself, do anything but research upgrades.
Given all this, I state my perception of the problem:
Protoss have a hard time innovating, and thereby evolving their playstyle.
Given all this, I state my suggested (noobish) solution:
1) Make the CyberCore needed for specific units, but allow toss to build a Twilight Council or a Robo after Gate, no CyberCore required.
--Note that without the CyberCore, some units would not be available, perhaps the Immortal and Observer are unlocked by the CyberCore.
2) After Robo, you can build a Stargate, but again, your units are limited. The CyberCore could unlock Void Ray for example, so all you get if you go Gate --> Robo --> Stargate is Pheonixes (maybe bring back the Shuriken?).
3) Add a light ground unit with a ranged attack to the Robo that can be produced without a CyberCore. Terran has Hellions for map control, scouting, and harass. Why not give something to the Protoss? Maybe a lightweight walking photon cannon? No detection and a damage nerf, and a smidge slower than stalkers. Or just make it really fast, but fragile, with less hp than stalkers.
What would this do? Theoretically, this would give toss another avenue to grow. Instead of gate --> core --> tech, a toss could go gate --> council --> Robo, get leg speed and a warp prism and drop the enemy main. Maybe that new light harrass unit would get toss out on the map faster, without the obs or immortals. It could even encourage zealot drop harrass with pheonix support. Has anyone ever tried that? I honestly don't know, but getting that unit composition is difficult until the late game the way the tech tree is structured right now. And are we really going to use zealots and pheonixes in the late game?
That last is a serious question, by the way. I'm too noob to have survived to a late game, and while I've seen zealots and pheonixes in late games, they usually don't make up the core of the army.
What I'm suggesting, to put it bluntly, is that the tech tree itself is stagnating toss evolution of play. Having one building that you absolutely HAVE to build before you can build anything other than your most basic unit is a severe limiting factor in theory. No other race has this handicap.
But maybe toss does need this handicap. What do you think? I honestly don't like the idea of chargelots beating on my door at 4 or 5 minutes, but I must confess I love the idea of doing it to someone else.
I highly recommend that before you make assertions as to what is or is not broken about SC2, that you play Starcraft Broodwar, widely acknowledged as one of the most balanced video games of all time and definitely the most balanced RTS. If you don't want to toss down the money, then just watch Youtube videos. NukeTheStars provides good English commentary, from what I remember. Key points:
1. Terran has the same general structure: Barracks into Factory into Starport. What makes it different? No switchable add-ons and the existence of an Academy and Science Facility that restrict tech paths. Also, Terran is far more fragile in the early game, and is forced to follow some very strict tech paths to not simply die to Zerg or Protoss aggression.
2. Zerg has the same general structure: Hatcheries make stuff, you get other buildings to allow making stuff. What makes it different? Larva injections mean Zerg players can get high Drone counts ridiculously fast, and then spend all their income without investing in a stupid number of Hatcheries. Also, SC2 has the 2-supply, ground-targeting, extremely bulky Roach rather than the 1-supply, ground-and-air targeting, vulnerable to AOE Hydralisk at tier 1.5.
3. Protoss has the same general structure: Gateway into Cyber into your choice of Stargate, Robo, or Citadel of Adun (no real difference from the Twilight Council). What makes it different? Warp Gates. They mean that Protoss units have to be ridiculously underpowered for their cost. Try using a Dragoon, and then try using a Stalker. You'll never want to use a Stalker again. Also, the Colossus as opposed to the Reaver and a significantly nerfed Psionic Storm turn Protoss into a rather silly deathball.
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On November 08 2011 23:04 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 06:29 blinkingangels wrote:On November 06 2011 05:57 BoomNasty wrote:
I am tired of how good terran is... It is ridiculous how good marines are. Comments like these always perplex me. Blizzard's own ladder statistics show the game is pretty well balanced, with some minor issues at the highest levels of play, which are most likely due to frequent changes in strategies and shifts in the meta-game. Implying Terran is better than every other race because of marines is silly. If there's an imbalance at this point, it's not going to be something as large as a single unit that's causing all of it. you can't rely too much on those statistic. Blizzard said it themselves, the ladder tries to match you up with equally skilled players, so you would expect more or less 50% w/l ratio.
That's why they adjust the percentage. Some guys at Blizzard with PhD's in math have worked out all the equations for it. I'd trust that over those tournament stats any day. The truth is, you can't rely on those tournament stats too much. It accounts for an extremely small sample size in comparison to Blizzard's stats, only shows a certain level of play, and doesn't account for a lot of other factors.
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On November 09 2011 12:20 blinkingangels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 23:04 ETisME wrote:On November 06 2011 06:29 blinkingangels wrote:On November 06 2011 05:57 BoomNasty wrote:
I am tired of how good terran is... It is ridiculous how good marines are. Comments like these always perplex me. Blizzard's own ladder statistics show the game is pretty well balanced, with some minor issues at the highest levels of play, which are most likely due to frequent changes in strategies and shifts in the meta-game. Implying Terran is better than every other race because of marines is silly. If there's an imbalance at this point, it's not going to be something as large as a single unit that's causing all of it. you can't rely too much on those statistic. Blizzard said it themselves, the ladder tries to match you up with equally skilled players, so you would expect more or less 50% w/l ratio. That's why they adjust the percentage. Some guys at Blizzard with PhD's in math have worked out all the equations for it. I'd trust that over those tournament stats any day. The truth is, you can't rely on those tournament stats too much. It accounts for an extremely small sample size in comparison to Blizzard's stats, only shows a certain level of play, and doesn't account for a lot of other factors.
It shows the results of the highest level of play. The highest level of play is the only thing that matters, because it's that high level of play that ultimately drives the game. High-level play creates tournaments which inspire lower-level players to play as well. If a race is imbalanced and it's reflected in the highest level of play, tournaments will lose their charm. People who play the other races will become discouraged and not want to play, because even if it is balanced at their level, if they keep getting better it eventually won't be. A healthy proscene drives all the other scenes, and people whose races suffer at a certain level of play can have faith that once they get past that hump they'll be on an even footing or even ahead of everyone else. That's why you have to balance for the highest level, even if that means throwing out a ton of data.
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Everyone posting in this thread should seriously just practice to get better. Stop thinking it's the game holding you back.
You aren't a pro, never will be, never will be close to one. There is always going to be micro and macro that you can do SIGNIFICANTLY better.
User was warned for this post
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On November 09 2011 02:42 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 23:04 ETisME wrote:On November 06 2011 06:29 blinkingangels wrote:On November 06 2011 05:57 BoomNasty wrote:
I am tired of how good terran is... It is ridiculous how good marines are. Comments like these always perplex me. Blizzard's own ladder statistics show the game is pretty well balanced, with some minor issues at the highest levels of play, which are most likely due to frequent changes in strategies and shifts in the meta-game. Implying Terran is better than every other race because of marines is silly. If there's an imbalance at this point, it's not going to be something as large as a single unit that's causing all of it. you can't rely too much on those statistic. Blizzard said it themselves, the ladder tries to match you up with equally skilled players, so you would expect more or less 50% w/l ratio. You really have no clue about statistics, do you? If you really think this, then you shouldn't be discussing balancing through stats because you have other things to learn first.
Rofl, what a douchebag. How about explaining why hes wrong for people that dont get it, instead of being a condescending neckbeard?
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This hate towards WG needs to cease, it's not the core of the problem and never was. If Protoss does have a problem it is reducible, at least in WOL, to two things:
1. Lack of splash early enough.
2. The Stalker (and this is due to blink not WG).
The fact of the matter is that SC2 is littered with a sort of upgrade dance between units that also deny abilities, and macro mechanics that make the game inherently difficult to balance and unstable. However, I do believe that Protoss drew the short straw in this respect when it came to the game design. I doubt that HOTS will fix it.
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EPT
