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On June 10 2014 21:07 Taronar wrote:
T currently has 2 main splashdamage units. One being the raven and the other is the widowmine.
Tanks.
In any case I disagree. Widow Mines are different from Ravens in the same way that Banelings are different from Infestors. They all have their own niches and different roles. And they're all useful in the right situation.
I reckon the main criticism that can be laid on Terran splash is that tanks have needed a buff to be reasonably usable vs Protoss since about 2011 and haven't. Not that Ravens and Window Mines are too similar.
Oh, 1000 pages of balance whine? Congrats I guess. 
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Northern Ireland27072 Posts
Biomine is one of the hardest styles to play micro wise I find. They are volatile once planted but the style is hard man
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Biomine is actually very hard to play because you need to be very dynamic. It is also quite random in its hits, so I calling it an "easy, boring" unit really makes no sense.
I mean you can use it statically and defensively but, what the hell, you can do that with most units (except lings :p).
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On June 10 2014 21:49 Wombat_NI wrote:
Biomine is one of the hardest styles to play micro wise I find. They are volatile once planted but the style is hard man
it's hard because it is underpowered.
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I do agree that Biomine is currently in a weak position, I also think that the widowmine is a unit which mixes up 2 or 3 strong units into one. The idea behind that is cool, on the other hand, I don't think it is necessary to have it used that reguarly.
I would love games with tanks and ravens a million times more than a game with widowmines. Compare that and tell me again they are not boring?
Example
We have 2 maxed out armies facing eachother. A 135 army supply T and a 120 army supply Zerg. We have a biomine vs mutalingbling. 2 armies clash into eachother and trade about even. Lings roll in and get sniped by mines autolaunching into them, we have banelings roll into marines (which need splitting) and the muta ball A-moves around to decimate the leftovers. We have seen this time and time over and eventually one loses.
We have 2 maxed out armies facing eachother. A 135 army supply T and a 120 army supply Zerg. We have a MMM with tanks and ravens. The scenario we have creates a front of T which holds ground with stationairy siegetanks to zone the attacking (b)lings, MMM does it's usual thing but the ravens support in protecting the medivacs with PDD, destroy and zone the incomming army with HSMs and can harras in the turtle phases with turrets.
This also creates a more diverse macro position for T. The choice between going for multiple stargates (reactor for Medivac, techlab for Raven), the choice to go for more factories for faster tanks (creating more a kind of mech comp). Lower amount of MM to create more room for the different armies, makes splitting easier and more resulting.
What does this mean in terms of micro? We all love micro games. This is just a huge step foward because of the multiple hotkey and army groups. Where in most cases ZvT does not use the specialists they now get some use.
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Mines just kinda suck. You can't base an entire composition of them at least, you can micro around them in all matchups and the payoff when they work isn't enough anymore. If mines can still be used it should be in combination with other mechanical units. I think tanks are a requirement when zerg makes 50+ banelings.
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On June 10 2014 22:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2014 21:49 Wombat_NI wrote:
Biomine is one of the hardest styles to play micro wise I find. They are volatile once planted but the style is hard man it's hard because it is underpowered.
Quite a ridiculous statement as bio alone is so much overpowered that other races had to be given strong units to deal with it in order to not instantly die after 6-8 minutes in every game and therefore whole SC2 is designed around z and t dealing with bio.
The biggest problem I see is that terran still can basically end games after few minutes with simple bio macro play.
This being said, I totally understand Tod to not gg vs Yoda in game 1, what I am watching right now. It is just ridiculous how easily terrans can win their games and how much OP bio actually is.
This could be witnessed in alot of recently played games. Terrans just play standard (no commitment like e.g. blink all-in is), walks out with ~10 units and games oftenly already get decided there.
To conclude: Saying that bio is up (no matter in which context) is a clear indicator of heavy balance whine. The truth is that it is so much op so that it destroys the whole SC2 balance and makes it hard for developers to build around it (muta regen, mothership core, etc., which are all being induced only by the heavyly overpowered bio and are actually not needed and detrimental for the game (spore buff becoming necessary for zvz muta strength, etc.)).
Apart from this: Terrans performances were obviously quite well recently and overall. I see mine vs shield nerf incoming.
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On June 11 2014 03:37 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2014 22:04 Big J wrote:On June 10 2014 21:49 Wombat_NI wrote:
Biomine is one of the hardest styles to play micro wise I find. They are volatile once planted but the style is hard man it's hard because it is underpowered. Quite a ridiculous statement as bio alone is so much overpowered that other races had to be given strong units to deal with it in order to not instantly die after 6-8 minutes in every game and therefore whole SC2 is designed around z and t dealing with bio. The biggest problem I see is that terran still can basically end games after few minutes with simple bio macro play. This being said, I totally understand Tod to not gg vs Yoda in game 1, what I am watching right now. It is just ridiculous how easily terrans can win their games and how much OP bio actually is. This could be witnessed in alot of recently played games. Terrans just play standard (no commitment like e.g. blink all-in is), walks out with ~10 units and games oftenly already get decided there. To conclude: Saying that bio is up (no matter in which context) is a clear indicator of heavy balance whine. The truth is that it is so much op so that it destroys the whole SC2 balance and makes it hard for developers to build around it (muta regen, mothership core, etc., which are all being induced only by the heavyly overpowered bio and are actually not needed and detrimental for the game (spore buff becoming necessary for zvz muta strength, etc.)). Apart from this: Terrans performances were obviously quite well recently and overall. I see mine vs shield nerf incoming.
Tod never ggs midway through a series
You can lose games in SC2 due to small things in every matchup, its a feature of the game itself not a race
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On June 11 2014 03:52 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 03:37 LSN wrote:On June 10 2014 22:04 Big J wrote:On June 10 2014 21:49 Wombat_NI wrote:
Biomine is one of the hardest styles to play micro wise I find. They are volatile once planted but the style is hard man it's hard because it is underpowered. Quite a ridiculous statement as bio alone is so much overpowered that other races had to be given strong units to deal with it in order to not instantly die after 6-8 minutes in every game and therefore whole SC2 is designed around z and t dealing with bio. The biggest problem I see is that terran still can basically end games after few minutes with simple bio macro play. This being said, I totally understand Tod to not gg vs Yoda in game 1, what I am watching right now. It is just ridiculous how easily terrans can win their games and how much OP bio actually is. This could be witnessed in alot of recently played games. Terrans just play standard (no commitment like e.g. blink all-in is), walks out with ~10 units and games oftenly already get decided there. To conclude: Saying that bio is up (no matter in which context) is a clear indicator of heavy balance whine. The truth is that it is so much op so that it destroys the whole SC2 balance and makes it hard for developers to build around it (muta regen, mothership core, etc., which are all being induced only by the heavyly overpowered bio and are actually not needed and detrimental for the game (spore buff becoming necessary for zvz muta strength, etc.)). Apart from this: Terrans performances were obviously quite well recently and overall. I see mine vs shield nerf incoming. Tod never ggs midway through a series You can lose games in SC2 due to small things in every matchup, its a feature of the game itself not a race
No! :D
Z/P can decide games early only with a heavy commitment. Not so terran. Simple 2 base macro is enough. Some dropship micro with 8 rines and games can be over, while 0 commitments and as well risks have been taken.
In the endgame bio can appear weak in fights. This is because auf the inevitable strength of the counters to bio and the heavy damage being done on both sides. It results in either bio melting down everything or bio getting owned by the splash (banelings, colossi, templar).
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On June 11 2014 03:57 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 03:52 Green_25 wrote:On June 11 2014 03:37 LSN wrote:On June 10 2014 22:04 Big J wrote:On June 10 2014 21:49 Wombat_NI wrote:
Biomine is one of the hardest styles to play micro wise I find. They are volatile once planted but the style is hard man it's hard because it is underpowered. Quite a ridiculous statement as bio alone is so much overpowered that other races had to be given strong units to deal with it in order to not instantly die after 6-8 minutes in every game and therefore whole SC2 is designed around z and t dealing with bio. The biggest problem I see is that terran still can basically end games after few minutes with simple bio macro play. This being said, I totally understand Tod to not gg vs Yoda in game 1, what I am watching right now. It is just ridiculous how easily terrans can win their games and how much OP bio actually is. This could be witnessed in alot of recently played games. Terrans just play standard (no commitment like e.g. blink all-in is), walks out with ~10 units and games oftenly already get decided there. To conclude: Saying that bio is up (no matter in which context) is a clear indicator of heavy balance whine. The truth is that it is so much op so that it destroys the whole SC2 balance and makes it hard for developers to build around it (muta regen, mothership core, etc., which are all being induced only by the heavyly overpowered bio and are actually not needed and detrimental for the game (spore buff becoming necessary for zvz muta strength, etc.)). Apart from this: Terrans performances were obviously quite well recently and overall. I see mine vs shield nerf incoming. Tod never ggs midway through a series You can lose games in SC2 due to small things in every matchup, its a feature of the game itself not a race No! :D Z/P can decide games early only with a heavy commitment. Not so terran. Simple 2 base macro is enough. Some dropship micro with 8 rines and games can be over, while 0 commitments and as well risks have been taken. In the endgame bio can appear weak in fights. This is because auf the inevitable strength of the counters to bio and the heavy damage being done on both sides. It results in either bio melting down everything or bio getting owned by the splash (banelings, colossi, templar).
If you're losing to a dropship with 8 marines, your problem likely isn't balance.
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Well I am not talking about myself. Just watch the common leagues like wcs, gsl or hsc/tsc.
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Maybe point out some games where this happens? Sometimes you overwhelm toss in the midgame with drop harass, but unless the toss is either really greedy or just bad, standard macro into random bio push won't result in a win
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On June 11 2014 04:09 LSN wrote:
Well I am not talking about myself. Just watch the common leagues like wcs, gsl or hsc/tsc.
I've watched all of those. With the exception of maru vs strok, which was not a 2 base macro game, no one died to 8 marines and a medivac.
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Anyone who says Terran has no early game options and must macro hasn't watched Taeja or ForGG or Yoda or basically any Terran in the last week.
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tod vs yoda games 1-3
He basically lost the games after being in touch first time with bio. Game 2 he only could turn around with a counter go that had very a very limited time window and due to the fact that the terran played actually that greedy. If he didnt go then he would have been so much behind already (after losing 2 colossi + probes + basically all other units to a small bio army).
But I have watched alot of games recently where this happens and happened. I dont memorize the players involved in detail tho. Just watch the games. You will see a hell lot of games where terran decides games early out of simple macro play.
Deciding games early doesn't btw mean that the player has to gg out at this exact point of time. Oftenly the games are being played out the safe way so that it takes way more time and it cant be recognized that easily that games have been predecided already before. Also casters want to keep it interesting. They oftenly let it appear as if the outcome of a fight is open while everybody knows how it ends.
Nvm. This is my opinion when looking at the big picture. I am not continuing to argue for this. I want a better SC2 overall balance with less "heavy damage" (=bio) and situations where one army devestates the the other with a few clicks or misclicks. As a matter of fact nothing can face a bio army besides the also overpowered splash damage capabilities of the other races. So there is actually nothing to argue with.
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On June 11 2014 04:22 LSN wrote:
Well tod vs yoda games 1-3
He basically lost the games after being in touch first time with bio. Game 2 he only could turn around with a counter go that had very a very limited time window and due to the fact that the terran played actually that greedy. If he didnt go then he would have been so much behind already (after losing 2 colossi + probes + basically all other units to a small bio army).
But I have watched alot of games recently where this happens and happened. I dont memorize the players involved in detail tho. Just watch the games. You will see a hell lot of games where terran ends games out of simple macro play.
I just saw yoda vs tod. In no game did yoda win with 8 marines and a medivac push after 2 base macro play.
EDIT: Game 1 was a proxy rax, bunker contain from yoda. He almost lost if not for tod clumping up his sentries and running up a ramp into a widow mine.
Game 2 yoda lost.
Game 3 Gangnam terran.
Still looking for this dreaded 2 base 8 marine, medivac push.
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Before you guys continue, look up LSN's post history
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Well just watch the games again. Tod didn't have any chance to win game 1 and 3 already after a few minutes. In game 2 he would have lost for like 90% as well if he didnt counter kill/attack the terran at this very exact point of time because bio has thrown him back so much after a few minutes of play. But as I say, nvm.
On June 11 2014 04:30 Ghanburighan wrote:Before you guys continue, look up LSN's post history
Not to talk of your history of 2 years+ terran balance whine without any sense of what actually is happening. You are one of these who want an a click go win out of solid macro by default and therefore you refresh this thread like 10-20 times a day to spread your biased word if you see anyone who is deviating of this well established and cultivated political correctness in this thread. :p
Anyone with the slightest bit of brain left easily sees that stuff like muta regeneration, mothership core, spore buff, oracle role, (and I am not even talking about bane/colossi/psi here) have been happening due to the the fact that bio is too overpowered elsewise. While all ppl argue that these things are unwanted (and I agree here) they fail to see the actual reason for this.
Why not simply nerf bio a bit and remove all the other unwanted stuff with a few adaptions? Easy as this.
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Game 1 Tod actually had in the bag until he lost all his sentries to a crazy mine hit, kinda ironic given what the discussion here has been about.
Anyway bio is stronger in the midgame, we all know this. Protoss is stronger early and late game though, so its hardly imbalanced. You can complain about design but not balance there, SC2 right now is crazy balanced for an rts.
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On June 11 2014 04:36 Green_25 wrote:
Game 1 Tod actually had in the bag until he lost all his sentries to a crazy mine hit, kinda ironic given what the discussion here has been about.
Anyway bio is stronger in the midgame, we all know this. Protoss is stronger early and late game though, so its hardly imbalanced. You can complain about design but not balance there, SC2 right now is crazy balanced for an rts.
No, you dont get the whole thing yet. You fail to realize that bio is the reason for most of the other commonly agreed unwanted things YOU are discussing about in this thread. I saw complains about basically everything that is a response to and caused by the strength of simple bio play.
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EPT
