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On June 11 2014 04:32 LSN wrote:
Well just watch the games again. Tod didn't have any chance to win game 1 and 3 already after a few minutes. In game 2 he would have lost for like 90% as well if he didnt counter kill/attack the terran at this very exact point of time because bio has thrown him back so much after a few minutes of play. But as I say, nvm.
Tod nearly killed yoda in game 1. If tod didn't run his sentries up yoda ramp, and if yoda didn't manually focus his widow mine tod's 4 gate would have won. Also a proxy rax and bunker contain is not 0 commitment or risk free.
Game 2. If a counter attack kills you, a build cannot be described as one where "0 commitments and as well risks have been taken.", nor can it be called "standard (no commitment like e.g. blink all-in is), walks out with ~10 units and games oftenly already get decided there."
Game 3. Gangnam terran isn't bio play. Tod fucked up. It also isn't standard, 0 risk, 2 base macro play.
Tod was also never killed by 8 marines and a medivac push after 2 base macro play.
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On June 11 2014 04:41 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 04:36 Green_25 wrote:
Game 1 Tod actually had in the bag until he lost all his sentries to a crazy mine hit, kinda ironic given what the discussion here has been about.
Anyway bio is stronger in the midgame, we all know this. Protoss is stronger early and late game though, so its hardly imbalanced. You can complain about design but not balance there, SC2 right now is crazy balanced for an rts. No, you dont get the whole thing yet. You fail to realize that bio is the reason for most of the other commonly agreed unwanted things YOU are discussing about in this thread. I saw complains about basically everything that is a response to and caused by the strength of simple bio play.
Swarmhosts and forcefields don't have much to do with bio last I checked...
Anyway, if you hate playing against bio you can always play starbow or broodwar, the comp is pretty useless in those games.
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On June 11 2014 04:42 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 04:32 LSN wrote:
Well just watch the games again. Tod didn't have any chance to win game 1 and 3 already after a few minutes. In game 2 he would have lost for like 90% as well if he didnt counter kill/attack the terran at this very exact point of time because bio has thrown him back so much after a few minutes of play. But as I say, nvm. Tod nearly killed yoda in game 1. If tod didn't run his sentries up yoda ramp, and if yoda didn't manually focus his widow mine tod's 4 gate would have won. Also a proxy rax and bunker contain is not 0 commitment or risk free. Game 2. If a counter attack kills you, a build cannot be described as one where "0 commitments and as well risks have been taken.", nor can it be called "standard (no commitment like e.g. blink all-in is), walks out with ~10 units and games oftenly already get decided there." Game 3. Gangnam terran isn't bio play. Tod fucked up. It also isn't standard, 0 risk, 2 base macro play. Tod was also never killed by 8 marines and a medivac push after 2 base macro play.
Well you are obviously narrow minded if you think the strength of an army consisting of like 3 tanks and 30 bio units does not rely on the strength of bio. For sure this is bio play (mixed with mech tho).
Your game analysis are wrong too. Tod went for this all-in in game1 because he was already set behind that much so that he didnt see any other chance. If the sentries didnt move in there the game would have ended the exact same way. The terran was unbreakable already (stim ready, mines down). Basically the same happened in game 2 where tod was forced to counter attack in order to not instantly lose the game and he won only due to greedy terran play and really bad defense.
But anyway, try to get to my arguments, that bio is the reason for most - if not all - unwanted changes that have been introduced to sc2 lately.
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Really makes me angry to see LSN posts, when terran is currently the most fragile race in the game.
Bio is really fragile to all the aoe protoss has, and every PO can defend a "Medivac + 8 marine push"
Your posts are absolutely ridiciulous
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Yeah you are getting angry cause you don't understand balance. When you want the counters to bio to be reduced (what I would like to see as well) also the strength of bio has to be reduced beforehand. And this is what I am talking about. I am not talking about current detail metagame issues, that no matter of what tweaks are being done, will have the same underlayings and just put the advantage on one or the other side.
Apart from this terran is winning alot recently. I don't see where this trouble comes from.
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For real though, can anyone name a period in another rts game (broodwar, W3, SC2,) with better 'balance'? I can't think of one tbh.
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please guys, just do not respond to LSN.
Even if you agree with all of it, not once has one of his posts led to a healthy discussion.
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I don't enjoy watching games where one of the players is being overrun completely like now mc did with yoda.
This is a result of op bio vs op bio counters.
Probably therefore SC2 does not have more viewers or players. Fights are not balanced well enough and feel unfair. LoL isnt at all so much more interesting or exciting.
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I think Terran needs more breathing room vs Toss in the late game. Which, to me, could only mean a nerf to Colossi or Templars(storm). Directly or indirectly.
Personally, I think that storms radius is bigger than it should be. And should be looked at(it's crazy how much ground 2-3 storms can cover).
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On June 11 2014 05:17 LSN wrote:
I don't enjoy watching games where one of the players is being overrun completely like now mc did with yoda.
This is a result of op bio vs op bio counters.
Probably therefore SC2 does not have more viewers or players. Fights are not balanced well enough and feel unfair. LoL isnt at all so much more interesting or exciting.
Yoda's loss was not due to balance problems. The better player wins. In fact, MC just lost the Grand Finals of Homestory Cup 0-4 to Taeja last weekend. That wasn't due to balance issues either.
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On June 11 2014 05:25 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 05:17 LSN wrote:
I don't enjoy watching games where one of the players is being overrun completely like now mc did with yoda.
This is a result of op bio vs op bio counters.
Probably therefore SC2 does not have more viewers or players. Fights are not balanced well enough and feel unfair. LoL isnt at all so much more interesting or exciting. Yoda's loss was not due to balance problems. The better player wins. In fact, MC just lost the Grand Finals of Homestory Cup 0-4 to Taeja last weekend. That wasn't due to balance issues either.
Well as others have mentioned already, I dont mean balance but more game design that turns into balance. Casters have said that yoda hasn't won a single taining game against mc and I respect that. Still stuff looks too one sided for me. Isn't this due to all the heavy damage that exists in the game that is mulitplying with each other and makes comebacks hard and lets slight advantages appear huge and all that stuff?
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Making comebacks is really hard in SC2 true, I'm not sure nerfing everything is a good or reasonable way to solve it however. Maybe if you borrowed from broodwar and utilised stuff like highground advantage or whatever things might be better. The game has a big problem with snowballing, its not due to bio or any one thing though I'd say.
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The one thing I would agree with LSN on is that because bio is so strong, the counters to bio need to be really strong as well. When you consider the INSANE dps of stimmed bio combined with the healing power of Medivacs... the answer from Protoss/Zerg HAS to be some sort of crazy AoE damage.
If stimmed bio wasn't as strong, then Colossus and Storm (and banelings) wouldn't need to do as much damage and armies consisting of more core units/less AoE units would be more viable.
Even in TvT, stimmed bio if it's spread out enough can just run up to and engage siege tanks if they're not properly defended by the other guy's bio or a lot of Hellbats.
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It would be nice if Blizzard could figure out a way for Terran to transition in the Late game TvP.
You can't go mech, because TvP that's suicide.
You can go Air because of Feedback  .
Maybe a late game upgrade that buffs SCV, in order to make the SCV pulls more viable vs Protoss  .
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On June 11 2014 05:06 Big J wrote:
please guys, just do not respond to LSN.
Even if you agree with all of it, not once has one of his posts led to a healthy discussion.
Challenge accepted!
On June 11 2014 05:17 LSN wrote:
I don't enjoy watching games where one of the players is being overrun completely like now mc did with yoda.
This is a result of op bio vs op bio counters.
Probably therefore SC2 does not have more viewers or players. Fights are not balanced well enough and feel unfair. LoL isnt at all so much more interesting or exciting.
Games look so unfair when the 3time WCS finalist and current WCS european champion of the world beats a non-GSL terran who only barely won vs a white caster.
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On June 11 2014 04:43 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 04:41 LSN wrote:On June 11 2014 04:36 Green_25 wrote:
Game 1 Tod actually had in the bag until he lost all his sentries to a crazy mine hit, kinda ironic given what the discussion here has been about.
Anyway bio is stronger in the midgame, we all know this. Protoss is stronger early and late game though, so its hardly imbalanced. You can complain about design but not balance there, SC2 right now is crazy balanced for an rts. No, you dont get the whole thing yet. You fail to realize that bio is the reason for most of the other commonly agreed unwanted things YOU are discussing about in this thread. I saw complains about basically everything that is a response to and caused by the strength of simple bio play. Swarmhosts and forcefields don't have much to do with bio last I checked... Anyway, if you hate playing against bio you can always play starbow or broodwar, the comp is pretty useless in those games.
Nope
Bio in tvz is super strong still in starbow
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On June 11 2014 03:37 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2014 22:04 Big J wrote:On June 10 2014 21:49 Wombat_NI wrote:
Biomine is one of the hardest styles to play micro wise I find. They are volatile once planted but the style is hard man it's hard because it is underpowered. Quite a ridiculous statement as bio alone is so much overpowered that other races had to be given strong units to deal with it in order to not instantly die after 6-8 minutes in every game and therefore whole SC2 is designed around z and t dealing with bio. The biggest problem I see is that terran still can basically end games after few minutes with simple bio macro play. This being said, I totally understand Tod to not gg vs Yoda in game 1, what I am watching right now. It is just ridiculous how easily terrans can win their games and how much OP bio actually is. This could be witnessed in alot of recently played games. Terrans just play standard (no commitment like e.g. blink all-in is), walks out with ~10 units and games oftenly already get decided there. To conclude: Saying that bio is up (no matter in which context) is a clear indicator of heavy balance whine. The truth is that it is so much op so that it destroys the whole SC2 balance and makes it hard for developers to build around it (muta regen, mothership core, etc., which are all being induced only by the heavyly overpowered bio and are actually not needed and detrimental for the game (spore buff becoming necessary for zvz muta strength, etc.)). Apart from this: Terrans performances were obviously quite well recently and overall. I see mine vs shield nerf incoming.
ZvX issues and Bio issues stem from volatility in zerg core units (ling.bling.roach) due to upgrades or lack of upgrades, from attack and armor to speed.
On June 11 2014 04:36 Green_25 wrote:
Game 1 Tod actually had in the bag until he lost all his sentries to a crazy mine hit, kinda ironic given what the discussion here has been about.
Anyway bio is stronger in the midgame, we all know this. Protoss is stronger early and late game though, so its hardly imbalanced. You can complain about design but not balance there, SC2 right now is crazy balanced for an rts.
If there's a race by certain races to finish the game before the other race gets into their power stage, that isn't really balanced is it? No race should have an intrinsic advantage to win simply because of what time index the game is in.
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On June 11 2014 06:13 DinoMight wrote:
The one thing I would agree with LSN on is that because bio is so strong, the counters to bio need to be really strong as well. When you consider the INSANE dps of stimmed bio combined with the healing power of Medivacs... the answer from Protoss/Zerg HAS to be some sort of crazy AoE damage.
If stimmed bio wasn't as strong, then Colossus and Storm (and banelings) wouldn't need to do as much damage and armies consisting of more core units/less AoE units would be more viable.
Even in TvT, stimmed bio if it's spread out enough can just run up to and engage siege tanks if they're not properly defended by the other guy's bio or a lot of Hellbats.
Funny how you put Zerg AoE and Protoss AoE in the same bag.
The only problem with Zerg AoE is that they can get too much baneling in the midgame due to huge map. But banelings never really were a problem actually.
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On June 11 2014 07:07 Socup wrote:
If there's a race by certain races to finish the game before the other race gets into their power stage, that isn't really balanced is it? No race should have an intrinsic advantage to win simply because of what time index the game is in.
Hardly.
Balance refers solely to X vs. Y being ~50% for games won.
Assuming all games last between 10 and 20 minutes at an even spread (for an intuitive example), if X wins 70% of games played that last 15m or less and only 30% of games lasting 15m01s and more, this is still balanced.
Whether it's good game design or not is another question.
Personally, it doesn't HAVE to be bad game design, so long as that 15m01s mark does not make the game a foregone conclusion; a match-up could be quite fun when characterized by a race to defeat your opponent / survive his/her attacks before a given time.
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On June 11 2014 07:11 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 06:13 DinoMight wrote:
The one thing I would agree with LSN on is that because bio is so strong, the counters to bio need to be really strong as well. When you consider the INSANE dps of stimmed bio combined with the healing power of Medivacs... the answer from Protoss/Zerg HAS to be some sort of crazy AoE damage.
If stimmed bio wasn't as strong, then Colossus and Storm (and banelings) wouldn't need to do as much damage and armies consisting of more core units/less AoE units would be more viable.
Even in TvT, stimmed bio if it's spread out enough can just run up to and engage siege tanks if they're not properly defended by the other guy's bio or a lot of Hellbats. Funny how you put Zerg AoE and Protoss AoE in the same bag. The only problem with Zerg AoE is that they can get too much baneling in the midgame due to huge map. But banelings never really were a problem actually.
Well, Colossus are not a problem if they only have 1 Colossus. How expensive something is and how many of them you can make is obviously a very important part of whether or not it's balanced.
Also, what is funny? I don't see it.
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EPT
