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On June 06 2014 17:39 Foreverkul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 16:54 Big J wrote:
Sounds more like a topic for the Terran Help Me Thread then, if you are only here to discuss whether you can or cannot rush a Protoss as Terran. My gripe isn't with whether can rush or not, and using any specific game doesn't settle any point (its just one posible example), my problem is the impact of Oracles on PvT. Oracles are a light fast, high DPS unit. How do you stop Oracles? In PvZ, Zerg has Queens which are a natural unit to build. In PvP, Protoss will have Stalkers and/or Phoenix and/or Overcharge, all on a natural build path. In PvT, Terran has Marines. But then there's a problem. Oracles kill workers fast, but whats really similar to a worker in HP? Marines. Meaning that the Terran natural counter is countered by Oracle. You need at least 4 marines at the same place, any less and you're dead. You can't even make more marines because they die so fast they deal 0 damage. Turrets would be ideal, but are not part of the natural build order (hurting economy) and they only protect against oracle, they have no other use in PvT when in the mineral line (except for DTs, but they come out later and are not as devastating). This doesn't account for the fact Terran needs to be applying pressure, so its not likely they will have just 4 marines standing in the mineral line. The idea of the Oracle is good (same with Overcharge), but they didn't just fill a gap in Protoss tech, they created an even bigger gap in Terran tech, thus contributing to the scarcity of Terran at high levels. (Note they aren't the sole cause of the problem, its the combination of lots of small problems.)
yeah, oracles are a stupid all-or-nothing unit.
And yes, Terran has to make stupid choices in the early game in PvT, because half of their techchoices are completely invalid vs Protoss, forcing them to build marines vs oracles. Which are definately not designed to counter them, like you elaborate, despite somehow still calling them "a natural counter".
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On June 06 2014 17:39 Foreverkul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 16:54 Big J wrote:
Sounds more like a topic for the Terran Help Me Thread then, if you are only here to discuss whether you can or cannot rush a Protoss as Terran. My gripe isn't with whether can rush or not, and using any specific game doesn't settle any point (its just one posible example), my problem is the impact of Oracles on PvT. Oracles are a light fast, high DPS unit. How do you stop Oracles? In PvZ, Zerg has Queens which are a natural unit to build. In PvP, Protoss will have Stalkers and/or Phoenix and/or Overcharge, all on a natural build path. In PvT, Terran has Marines. But then there's a problem. Oracles kill workers fast, but whats really similar to a worker in HP? Marines. Meaning that the Terran natural counter is countered by Oracle. You need at least 4 marines at the same place, any less and you're dead. You can't even make more marines because they die so fast they deal 0 damage. Turrets would be ideal, but are not part of the natural build order (hurting economy) and they only protect against oracle, they have no other use in PvT when in the mineral line (except for DTs, but they come out later and are not as devastating). This doesn't account for the fact Terran needs to be applying pressure, so its not likely they will have just 4 marines standing in the mineral line. The idea of the Oracle is good (same with Overcharge), but they didn't just fill a gap in Protoss tech, they created an even bigger gap in Terran tech, thus contributing to the scarcity of Terran at high levels. (Note they aren't the sole cause of the problem, its the combination of lots of small problems.)
Don't you wish Oracles had a non-damage harass system that dealt minimal damage but, over time, could weaken enemy economy only through consistent and persistent unit control.
Its like Blizzard knew what they were doing until the community asked for more DPS.
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On June 06 2014 23:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 17:39 Foreverkul wrote:On June 06 2014 16:54 Big J wrote:
Sounds more like a topic for the Terran Help Me Thread then, if you are only here to discuss whether you can or cannot rush a Protoss as Terran. My gripe isn't with whether can rush or not, and using any specific game doesn't settle any point (its just one posible example), my problem is the impact of Oracles on PvT. Oracles are a light fast, high DPS unit. How do you stop Oracles? In PvZ, Zerg has Queens which are a natural unit to build. In PvP, Protoss will have Stalkers and/or Phoenix and/or Overcharge, all on a natural build path. In PvT, Terran has Marines. But then there's a problem. Oracles kill workers fast, but whats really similar to a worker in HP? Marines. Meaning that the Terran natural counter is countered by Oracle. You need at least 4 marines at the same place, any less and you're dead. You can't even make more marines because they die so fast they deal 0 damage. Turrets would be ideal, but are not part of the natural build order (hurting economy) and they only protect against oracle, they have no other use in PvT when in the mineral line (except for DTs, but they come out later and are not as devastating). This doesn't account for the fact Terran needs to be applying pressure, so its not likely they will have just 4 marines standing in the mineral line. The idea of the Oracle is good (same with Overcharge), but they didn't just fill a gap in Protoss tech, they created an even bigger gap in Terran tech, thus contributing to the scarcity of Terran at high levels. (Note they aren't the sole cause of the problem, its the combination of lots of small problems.) Don't you wish Oracles had a non-damage harass system that dealt minimal damage but, over time, could weaken enemy economy only through consistent and persistent unit control. Its like Blizzard knew what they were doing until the community asked for more DPS.
If you refer to Entomb, it looked fairly terrible.
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That's the thing. There was nothing wrong with the old, pre-buff oracle. It was defendable and only people who were actually good with them could make them worthwhile because losing them was so easy since you could catch them with a couple of stalkers or a small group of marines.
But then that stupid buff happened and changed everything. I doubt you would be able to find very many players, Protoss included, who would defend the oracle buff. It made no sense. When it happened there were many Protoss calling it the dumbest balance change since the queen buff, myself included. It seemed completely arbitrary (not to mention it took PvP, which was finally starting to stabilize, back into a state if stupidity because there were so many people proxying oracles every single game). There was no imbalance at the time that the oracle buff was being used to fix, the only reasoning given behind it was that they wanted to make the unit more microable. But even in that regard, the buff failed. There was no hidden amount of microability unlocked by making the oracle faster. If anything they made it so you could be less careful and precise with it because it can escape basically any anti-air unit on the ground now as long as you move before the units are too close (and even then you can usually escape with a few health).
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I just played a game where the Protoss chrono'd out like stalker stalker MSC and oracle, then expanded behind it. I couldn't do anything about it despite defending at times 3 oracles in my base. And they all ended up being red, and I "just" couldn't kill them. And the guy's control was AWFUL! I don't mind giving buffs that rewards good control and decision making, even to Protoss players. But this is just stupid.
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On June 06 2014 23:34 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 23:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 06 2014 17:39 Foreverkul wrote:On June 06 2014 16:54 Big J wrote:
Sounds more like a topic for the Terran Help Me Thread then, if you are only here to discuss whether you can or cannot rush a Protoss as Terran. My gripe isn't with whether can rush or not, and using any specific game doesn't settle any point (its just one posible example), my problem is the impact of Oracles on PvT. Oracles are a light fast, high DPS unit. How do you stop Oracles? In PvZ, Zerg has Queens which are a natural unit to build. In PvP, Protoss will have Stalkers and/or Phoenix and/or Overcharge, all on a natural build path. In PvT, Terran has Marines. But then there's a problem. Oracles kill workers fast, but whats really similar to a worker in HP? Marines. Meaning that the Terran natural counter is countered by Oracle. You need at least 4 marines at the same place, any less and you're dead. You can't even make more marines because they die so fast they deal 0 damage. Turrets would be ideal, but are not part of the natural build order (hurting economy) and they only protect against oracle, they have no other use in PvT when in the mineral line (except for DTs, but they come out later and are not as devastating). This doesn't account for the fact Terran needs to be applying pressure, so its not likely they will have just 4 marines standing in the mineral line. The idea of the Oracle is good (same with Overcharge), but they didn't just fill a gap in Protoss tech, they created an even bigger gap in Terran tech, thus contributing to the scarcity of Terran at high levels. (Note they aren't the sole cause of the problem, its the combination of lots of small problems.) Don't you wish Oracles had a non-damage harass system that dealt minimal damage but, over time, could weaken enemy economy only through consistent and persistent unit control. Its like Blizzard knew what they were doing until the community asked for more DPS. If you refer to Entomb, it looked fairly terrible.
Aye, but interesting. One of the few innovative things the team came up with, even if it wasn't polished.
I like what the Oracle wants to be, a good harass unit that allows for lots of player skill to show, but it is implemented poorly and lazy, like so many other things in this game.
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On June 06 2014 23:34 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 23:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 06 2014 17:39 Foreverkul wrote:On June 06 2014 16:54 Big J wrote:
Sounds more like a topic for the Terran Help Me Thread then, if you are only here to discuss whether you can or cannot rush a Protoss as Terran. My gripe isn't with whether can rush or not, and using any specific game doesn't settle any point (its just one posible example), my problem is the impact of Oracles on PvT. Oracles are a light fast, high DPS unit. How do you stop Oracles? In PvZ, Zerg has Queens which are a natural unit to build. In PvP, Protoss will have Stalkers and/or Phoenix and/or Overcharge, all on a natural build path. In PvT, Terran has Marines. But then there's a problem. Oracles kill workers fast, but whats really similar to a worker in HP? Marines. Meaning that the Terran natural counter is countered by Oracle. You need at least 4 marines at the same place, any less and you're dead. You can't even make more marines because they die so fast they deal 0 damage. Turrets would be ideal, but are not part of the natural build order (hurting economy) and they only protect against oracle, they have no other use in PvT when in the mineral line (except for DTs, but they come out later and are not as devastating). This doesn't account for the fact Terran needs to be applying pressure, so its not likely they will have just 4 marines standing in the mineral line. The idea of the Oracle is good (same with Overcharge), but they didn't just fill a gap in Protoss tech, they created an even bigger gap in Terran tech, thus contributing to the scarcity of Terran at high levels. (Note they aren't the sole cause of the problem, its the combination of lots of small problems.) But its the concept that was interesting. People didn't like new things and did not want a harass unit that didn't necessarily kill workers. They couldn't grok it, and so instead of discussing it to look for a better way to implement it, they dis it for months until Blizzard had to resort to making a chainsaw on wings. The Oracle as it is today is a failure of the community, not Blizzard. Don't you wish Oracles had a non-damage harass system that dealt minimal damage but, over time, could weaken enemy economy only through consistent and persistent unit control. Its like Blizzard knew what they were doing until the community asked for more DPS. If you refer to Entomb, it looked fairly terrible.
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i dont think anyone needs reminding that the oracle in its current form is pretty bad
the anoying thing about them is that i actually really like the spells on the oracle from a utility standpoint
( envision is great, and giving stargate detection has actually made it a viable tech path in PvP etc)
i still think that the speed buff was really unnecessary
im hoping the helbat change evens out TvZ ( even as a zerg) though it does feel like its just delaying the point where mutas get out of control, i generally dont lose ZvT once i get to the 25+ muta ball unless im playing a significantly better player than myself :L
i personally thing that ravens are actually kinda problematic, there ridiculously effecient en mass ( and i really dislike spellcatsers beign so good you can mass them ala WOL infestor), but at the same time not really worth the investment for just 1 or 2 outside earlgame TvT vs banshees
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On June 07 2014 01:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 23:34 TheDwf wrote:On June 06 2014 23:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 06 2014 17:39 Foreverkul wrote:On June 06 2014 16:54 Big J wrote:
Sounds more like a topic for the Terran Help Me Thread then, if you are only here to discuss whether you can or cannot rush a Protoss as Terran. My gripe isn't with whether can rush or not, and using any specific game doesn't settle any point (its just one posible example), my problem is the impact of Oracles on PvT. Oracles are a light fast, high DPS unit. How do you stop Oracles? In PvZ, Zerg has Queens which are a natural unit to build. In PvP, Protoss will have Stalkers and/or Phoenix and/or Overcharge, all on a natural build path. In PvT, Terran has Marines. But then there's a problem. Oracles kill workers fast, but whats really similar to a worker in HP? Marines. Meaning that the Terran natural counter is countered by Oracle. You need at least 4 marines at the same place, any less and you're dead. You can't even make more marines because they die so fast they deal 0 damage. Turrets would be ideal, but are not part of the natural build order (hurting economy) and they only protect against oracle, they have no other use in PvT when in the mineral line (except for DTs, but they come out later and are not as devastating). This doesn't account for the fact Terran needs to be applying pressure, so its not likely they will have just 4 marines standing in the mineral line. The idea of the Oracle is good (same with Overcharge), but they didn't just fill a gap in Protoss tech, they created an even bigger gap in Terran tech, thus contributing to the scarcity of Terran at high levels. (Note they aren't the sole cause of the problem, its the combination of lots of small problems.) But its the concept that was interesting. People didn't like new things and did not want a harass unit that didn't necessarily kill workers. They couldn't grok it, and so instead of discussing it to look for a better way to implement it, they dis it for months until Blizzard had to resort to making a chainsaw on wings. The Oracle as it is today is a failure of the community, not Blizzard. Don't you wish Oracles had a non-damage harass system that dealt minimal damage but, over time, could weaken enemy economy only through consistent and persistent unit control. Its like Blizzard knew what they were doing until the community asked for more DPS. If you refer to Entomb, it looked fairly terrible. The community knows what it wants, until it actually gets it. At which point, Blizzard is stupid and they hate it.
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On June 08 2014 00:06 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 01:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 06 2014 23:34 TheDwf wrote:On June 06 2014 23:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 06 2014 17:39 Foreverkul wrote:On June 06 2014 16:54 Big J wrote:
Sounds more like a topic for the Terran Help Me Thread then, if you are only here to discuss whether you can or cannot rush a Protoss as Terran. My gripe isn't with whether can rush or not, and using any specific game doesn't settle any point (its just one posible example), my problem is the impact of Oracles on PvT. Oracles are a light fast, high DPS unit. How do you stop Oracles? In PvZ, Zerg has Queens which are a natural unit to build. In PvP, Protoss will have Stalkers and/or Phoenix and/or Overcharge, all on a natural build path. In PvT, Terran has Marines. But then there's a problem. Oracles kill workers fast, but whats really similar to a worker in HP? Marines. Meaning that the Terran natural counter is countered by Oracle. You need at least 4 marines at the same place, any less and you're dead. You can't even make more marines because they die so fast they deal 0 damage. Turrets would be ideal, but are not part of the natural build order (hurting economy) and they only protect against oracle, they have no other use in PvT when in the mineral line (except for DTs, but they come out later and are not as devastating). This doesn't account for the fact Terran needs to be applying pressure, so its not likely they will have just 4 marines standing in the mineral line. The idea of the Oracle is good (same with Overcharge), but they didn't just fill a gap in Protoss tech, they created an even bigger gap in Terran tech, thus contributing to the scarcity of Terran at high levels. (Note they aren't the sole cause of the problem, its the combination of lots of small problems.) But its the concept that was interesting. People didn't like new things and did not want a harass unit that didn't necessarily kill workers. They couldn't grok it, and so instead of discussing it to look for a better way to implement it, they dis it for months until Blizzard had to resort to making a chainsaw on wings. The Oracle as it is today is a failure of the community, not Blizzard. Don't you wish Oracles had a non-damage harass system that dealt minimal damage but, over time, could weaken enemy economy only through consistent and persistent unit control. Its like Blizzard knew what they were doing until the community asked for more DPS. If you refer to Entomb, it looked fairly terrible. The community knows what it wants, until it actually gets it. At which point, Blizzard is stupid and they hate it.
Community did not want oracle speed change, iirc.
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On June 08 2014 00:22 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2014 00:06 RampancyTW wrote:On June 07 2014 01:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 06 2014 23:34 TheDwf wrote:On June 06 2014 23:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 06 2014 17:39 Foreverkul wrote:On June 06 2014 16:54 Big J wrote:
Sounds more like a topic for the Terran Help Me Thread then, if you are only here to discuss whether you can or cannot rush a Protoss as Terran. My gripe isn't with whether can rush or not, and using any specific game doesn't settle any point (its just one posible example), my problem is the impact of Oracles on PvT. Oracles are a light fast, high DPS unit. How do you stop Oracles? In PvZ, Zerg has Queens which are a natural unit to build. In PvP, Protoss will have Stalkers and/or Phoenix and/or Overcharge, all on a natural build path. In PvT, Terran has Marines. But then there's a problem. Oracles kill workers fast, but whats really similar to a worker in HP? Marines. Meaning that the Terran natural counter is countered by Oracle. You need at least 4 marines at the same place, any less and you're dead. You can't even make more marines because they die so fast they deal 0 damage. Turrets would be ideal, but are not part of the natural build order (hurting economy) and they only protect against oracle, they have no other use in PvT when in the mineral line (except for DTs, but they come out later and are not as devastating). This doesn't account for the fact Terran needs to be applying pressure, so its not likely they will have just 4 marines standing in the mineral line. The idea of the Oracle is good (same with Overcharge), but they didn't just fill a gap in Protoss tech, they created an even bigger gap in Terran tech, thus contributing to the scarcity of Terran at high levels. (Note they aren't the sole cause of the problem, its the combination of lots of small problems.) But its the concept that was interesting. People didn't like new things and did not want a harass unit that didn't necessarily kill workers. They couldn't grok it, and so instead of discussing it to look for a better way to implement it, they dis it for months until Blizzard had to resort to making a chainsaw on wings. The Oracle as it is today is a failure of the community, not Blizzard. Don't you wish Oracles had a non-damage harass system that dealt minimal damage but, over time, could weaken enemy economy only through consistent and persistent unit control. Its like Blizzard knew what they were doing until the community asked for more DPS. If you refer to Entomb, it looked fairly terrible. The community knows what it wants, until it actually gets it. At which point, Blizzard is stupid and they hate it. Community did not want oracle speed change, iirc. And..?
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On June 07 2014 00:45 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 23:34 TheDwf wrote:On June 06 2014 23:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 06 2014 17:39 Foreverkul wrote:On June 06 2014 16:54 Big J wrote:
Sounds more like a topic for the Terran Help Me Thread then, if you are only here to discuss whether you can or cannot rush a Protoss as Terran. My gripe isn't with whether can rush or not, and using any specific game doesn't settle any point (its just one posible example), my problem is the impact of Oracles on PvT. Oracles are a light fast, high DPS unit. How do you stop Oracles? In PvZ, Zerg has Queens which are a natural unit to build. In PvP, Protoss will have Stalkers and/or Phoenix and/or Overcharge, all on a natural build path. In PvT, Terran has Marines. But then there's a problem. Oracles kill workers fast, but whats really similar to a worker in HP? Marines. Meaning that the Terran natural counter is countered by Oracle. You need at least 4 marines at the same place, any less and you're dead. You can't even make more marines because they die so fast they deal 0 damage. Turrets would be ideal, but are not part of the natural build order (hurting economy) and they only protect against oracle, they have no other use in PvT when in the mineral line (except for DTs, but they come out later and are not as devastating). This doesn't account for the fact Terran needs to be applying pressure, so its not likely they will have just 4 marines standing in the mineral line. The idea of the Oracle is good (same with Overcharge), but they didn't just fill a gap in Protoss tech, they created an even bigger gap in Terran tech, thus contributing to the scarcity of Terran at high levels. (Note they aren't the sole cause of the problem, its the combination of lots of small problems.) Don't you wish Oracles had a non-damage harass system that dealt minimal damage but, over time, could weaken enemy economy only through consistent and persistent unit control. Its like Blizzard knew what they were doing until the community asked for more DPS. If you refer to Entomb, it looked fairly terrible. Aye, but interesting. One of the few innovative things the team came up with, even if it wasn't polished. I like what the Oracle wants to be, a good harass unit that allows for lots of player skill to show, but it is implemented poorly and lazy, like so many other things in this game.
No. It had no way of differentiating skills. It was a purely shift-click ability.
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raven seeker insta cast any1? rofl how about a early game spellcaster that isnt a harlmess building i mean i could scan u to death
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On June 08 2014 20:36 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 00:45 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 06 2014 23:34 TheDwf wrote:On June 06 2014 23:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 06 2014 17:39 Foreverkul wrote:On June 06 2014 16:54 Big J wrote:
Sounds more like a topic for the Terran Help Me Thread then, if you are only here to discuss whether you can or cannot rush a Protoss as Terran. My gripe isn't with whether can rush or not, and using any specific game doesn't settle any point (its just one posible example), my problem is the impact of Oracles on PvT. Oracles are a light fast, high DPS unit. How do you stop Oracles? In PvZ, Zerg has Queens which are a natural unit to build. In PvP, Protoss will have Stalkers and/or Phoenix and/or Overcharge, all on a natural build path. In PvT, Terran has Marines. But then there's a problem. Oracles kill workers fast, but whats really similar to a worker in HP? Marines. Meaning that the Terran natural counter is countered by Oracle. You need at least 4 marines at the same place, any less and you're dead. You can't even make more marines because they die so fast they deal 0 damage. Turrets would be ideal, but are not part of the natural build order (hurting economy) and they only protect against oracle, they have no other use in PvT when in the mineral line (except for DTs, but they come out later and are not as devastating). This doesn't account for the fact Terran needs to be applying pressure, so its not likely they will have just 4 marines standing in the mineral line. The idea of the Oracle is good (same with Overcharge), but they didn't just fill a gap in Protoss tech, they created an even bigger gap in Terran tech, thus contributing to the scarcity of Terran at high levels. (Note they aren't the sole cause of the problem, its the combination of lots of small problems.) Don't you wish Oracles had a non-damage harass system that dealt minimal damage but, over time, could weaken enemy economy only through consistent and persistent unit control. Its like Blizzard knew what they were doing until the community asked for more DPS. If you refer to Entomb, it looked fairly terrible. Aye, but interesting. One of the few innovative things the team came up with, even if it wasn't polished. I like what the Oracle wants to be, a good harass unit that allows for lots of player skill to show, but it is implemented poorly and lazy, like so many other things in this game. No. It had no way of differentiating skills. It was a purely shift-click ability.
Thats pretty much all of the spells in SC2 and BW, its not like you need to do a button combination to activate a spell...
Heal is an autocast ability
Inject is just a one click ability
Stim is just pressing one hotkey ability
All spells are a shift+click or even just a click ability; the goal is changing the spell length/cost/cooldown to require either more babysitting (stim), less babysitting (forcefield), or require longterm babysitting (Heal)
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On June 09 2014 01:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2014 20:36 Hider wrote:On June 07 2014 00:45 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 06 2014 23:34 TheDwf wrote:On June 06 2014 23:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 06 2014 17:39 Foreverkul wrote:On June 06 2014 16:54 Big J wrote:
Sounds more like a topic for the Terran Help Me Thread then, if you are only here to discuss whether you can or cannot rush a Protoss as Terran. My gripe isn't with whether can rush or not, and using any specific game doesn't settle any point (its just one posible example), my problem is the impact of Oracles on PvT. Oracles are a light fast, high DPS unit. How do you stop Oracles? In PvZ, Zerg has Queens which are a natural unit to build. In PvP, Protoss will have Stalkers and/or Phoenix and/or Overcharge, all on a natural build path. In PvT, Terran has Marines. But then there's a problem. Oracles kill workers fast, but whats really similar to a worker in HP? Marines. Meaning that the Terran natural counter is countered by Oracle. You need at least 4 marines at the same place, any less and you're dead. You can't even make more marines because they die so fast they deal 0 damage. Turrets would be ideal, but are not part of the natural build order (hurting economy) and they only protect against oracle, they have no other use in PvT when in the mineral line (except for DTs, but they come out later and are not as devastating). This doesn't account for the fact Terran needs to be applying pressure, so its not likely they will have just 4 marines standing in the mineral line. The idea of the Oracle is good (same with Overcharge), but they didn't just fill a gap in Protoss tech, they created an even bigger gap in Terran tech, thus contributing to the scarcity of Terran at high levels. (Note they aren't the sole cause of the problem, its the combination of lots of small problems.) Don't you wish Oracles had a non-damage harass system that dealt minimal damage but, over time, could weaken enemy economy only through consistent and persistent unit control. Its like Blizzard knew what they were doing until the community asked for more DPS. If you refer to Entomb, it looked fairly terrible. Aye, but interesting. One of the few innovative things the team came up with, even if it wasn't polished. I like what the Oracle wants to be, a good harass unit that allows for lots of player skill to show, but it is implemented poorly and lazy, like so many other things in this game. No. It had no way of differentiating skills. It was a purely shift-click ability. Thats pretty much all of the spells in SC2 and BW, its not like you need to do a button combination to activate a spell... Heal is an autocast ability Inject is just a one click ability Stim is just pressing one hotkey ability All spells are a shift+click or even just a click ability; the goal is changing the spell length/cost/cooldown to require either more babysitting (stim), less babysitting (forcefield), or require longterm babysitting (Heal)
Storm, ensnare, raven seeker missile, emp, fungal, forcefield
It was a purely shift-click ability
Maybe you missed this part.
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On June 09 2014 01:28 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 01:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 08 2014 20:36 Hider wrote:On June 07 2014 00:45 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 06 2014 23:34 TheDwf wrote:On June 06 2014 23:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 06 2014 17:39 Foreverkul wrote:On June 06 2014 16:54 Big J wrote:
Sounds more like a topic for the Terran Help Me Thread then, if you are only here to discuss whether you can or cannot rush a Protoss as Terran. My gripe isn't with whether can rush or not, and using any specific game doesn't settle any point (its just one posible example), my problem is the impact of Oracles on PvT. Oracles are a light fast, high DPS unit. How do you stop Oracles? In PvZ, Zerg has Queens which are a natural unit to build. In PvP, Protoss will have Stalkers and/or Phoenix and/or Overcharge, all on a natural build path. In PvT, Terran has Marines. But then there's a problem. Oracles kill workers fast, but whats really similar to a worker in HP? Marines. Meaning that the Terran natural counter is countered by Oracle. You need at least 4 marines at the same place, any less and you're dead. You can't even make more marines because they die so fast they deal 0 damage. Turrets would be ideal, but are not part of the natural build order (hurting economy) and they only protect against oracle, they have no other use in PvT when in the mineral line (except for DTs, but they come out later and are not as devastating). This doesn't account for the fact Terran needs to be applying pressure, so its not likely they will have just 4 marines standing in the mineral line. The idea of the Oracle is good (same with Overcharge), but they didn't just fill a gap in Protoss tech, they created an even bigger gap in Terran tech, thus contributing to the scarcity of Terran at high levels. (Note they aren't the sole cause of the problem, its the combination of lots of small problems.) Don't you wish Oracles had a non-damage harass system that dealt minimal damage but, over time, could weaken enemy economy only through consistent and persistent unit control. Its like Blizzard knew what they were doing until the community asked for more DPS. If you refer to Entomb, it looked fairly terrible. Aye, but interesting. One of the few innovative things the team came up with, even if it wasn't polished. I like what the Oracle wants to be, a good harass unit that allows for lots of player skill to show, but it is implemented poorly and lazy, like so many other things in this game. No. It had no way of differentiating skills. It was a purely shift-click ability. Thats pretty much all of the spells in SC2 and BW, its not like you need to do a button combination to activate a spell... Heal is an autocast ability Inject is just a one click ability Stim is just pressing one hotkey ability All spells are a shift+click or even just a click ability; the goal is changing the spell length/cost/cooldown to require either more babysitting (stim), less babysitting (forcefield), or require longterm babysitting (Heal) Storm, ensnare, raven seeker missile, emp, fungal, forcefield Maybe you missed this part.
Parting got famous because he would simply sacrifice midmap templars to hit moving armies. Literally a templar standing there, then box selects and clicks on the map to hit an army. That's what made him famous initially.
MMA got famous because he would shift click 1-3 medivacs and then move his army around.
There's a whole lot of shift clicking in this game, queuing multiply orders at the same time is the point of an RTS. The concept of the Oracle was sound. A non-lethal harass technique that was expected to be done continually over time and only in the babysitting of the unit over 5-10 minutes do you finally see results from the harass. Since SCVs aren't being killed off, the best way to counteract it would be a forcing of spreading out bases to minimize the income lost from small numbers of bases.
The concept itself, was sound. The implementation was bad, but instead of working on the execution they gave in to the Bnet forums and just made a flying stimmed marine. Personally, the problem with their attempt to fix the spell was that they tried to give it some amount of hitpoints and made sure to make it last a very long amount of time. had they gone the opposite direction, where the unkillable entomb only lasted 2-3 seconds for a low amount of mana, then the only successful Oracle players would be the ones who could literally be using the oracle non-stop for minutes at a time. The oracle could not run very far away, and if the army comes back to defend then the workers are safe. Instead they went the direction of having killable forcefields on mineral patches which just looked weird.
But that's neither here nor there, the problem with entomb before they cut it was that it lasted too long and its countermeasure looked hokey. Having SCVs attack entomb shields is just weird.
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Well, the point was that many spells arent shift-click abilities. You need accuracy and beeing able to forsee his next movement.
Anyway.
Ye. I to believe entomb could work out in the end with tweaks.
Or atleast, become alot better than it was.
Hider pointed out that it would be a pure shift-click ability, which i dont think would be true if the unit and spell got tweaked. Just as you say, the idea was sound but purely implemented. I feel Blizzard do this all the time nowadays.
The oracle could receive less health. The spell could last a shorter duration likey you pointed out.
2-3 sec, or 4-5 sec.
And also make it like forcefield, not destroyable. Like you said.
A 4-5 sec duration on the mineralfields would be, idk, like 100income lose on 8fields?
If you cast it in sequences, it adds up. Again, as you pointed out.
I think i like this now already on paper.
Shift-clicking into 3-4marines=death
Shift-clicking into 2stalkers=death
Shift-clicking into 1turret, cannon, spore=death
Before hitting his spell.
The oracle would in the end try and sneak past the enemy defence or lure the defence away.
Huge apm needed here for protoss.
Dropping 4zealots, soak up damage from the defence and then cast entomb.
This in turn would make it possible to make him receive more utility spells also.
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On June 09 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote:
Well, the point was that many spells arent shift-click abilities. You need accuracy and beeing able to forsee his next movement.
Anyway.
Ye. I to believe entomb could work out in the end with tweaks.
Or atleast, become alot better than it was.
Hider pointed out that it would be a pure shift-click ability, which i dont think would be true if the unit and spell got tweaked. Just as you say, the idea was sound but purely implemented. I feel Blizzard do this all the time nowadays.
The oracle could receive less health. The spell could last a shorter duration likey you pointed out.
2-3 sec, or 4-5 sec.
And also make it like forcefield, not destroyable. Like you said.
A 4-5 sec duration on the mineralfields would be, idk, like 100income lose on 8fields?
If you cast it in sequences, it adds up. Again, as you pointed out.
I think i like this now already on paper.
Shift-clicking into 3-4marines=death
Shift-clicking into 2stalkers=death
Shift-clicking into 1turret, cannon, spore=death
Before hitting his spell.
The oracle would in the end try and sneak past the enemy defence or lure the defence away.
Huge apm needed here for protoss.
Dropping 4zealots, soak up damage from the defence and then cast entomb.
This in turn would make it possible to make him receive more utility spells also.
Yeah, I agree with that. As it was it was terrible. But the movement towards more worker clearing spells just made the oracle feel very non-toss to me.
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Meh i think its tossy like, just needs to be more room for error with such a unit
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EPT
