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On August 14 2011 11:18 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:14 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money.
Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances? You're missing the point. He's saying that if NASL isnt helping other players/teams (like White-Ra) get to finals, why should they have to help the Koreans. Times are tough for everybody. The world economy isn't exactly in the greatest shape right now. Times are tough. Koreans don't have as much money as foreigners and that is fact. Even with NASL's financial aid, Koreans still have declined to play.
After they agreed to play and pulled out as production had already started.
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On August 14 2011 11:18 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:14 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money.
Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances? You're missing the point. He's saying that if NASL isnt helping other players/teams (like White-Ra) get to finals, why should they have to help the Koreans. Times are tough for everybody. The world economy isn't exactly in the greatest shape right now. Times are tough. Koreans don't have as much money as foreigners and that is fact. Even with NASL's financial aid, Koreans still have declined to play.
I guess that's my biggest problem with this decision, whether the teams' or SC2Con's. It's so short sighted.
If the financial situation is THAT dire in Korea, the course of action they have chosen to take will do 0% to make it better.
If they were thinking long-term, they would realize that some money spent now (made minor by NASL's help) is worth it, because in the long-term, the exposure they get will help them get Western sponsors, which they need to survive.
Look at PuMa. He was fairly unknown until NASL. He didn't even play in the entire season, yet now, he's almost a household name in SC2.
If you are a good team manager, you look at things like that and see a big fat OPPORTUNITY written all over it. That's something you can sell to sponsors.
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Sounds like semantics to me. It may not have been an official S2CON decision, but from what we've been told they certainly have played a major role in this whole saga.
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On August 14 2011 10:52 ReaperX wrote:
SC2Con...
Haha.. I see what you did there wp 
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On August 14 2011 11:22 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:18 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:14 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:
[quote]
Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances? You're missing the point. He's saying that if NASL isnt helping other players/teams (like White-Ra) get to finals, why should they have to help the Koreans. Times are tough for everybody. The world economy isn't exactly in the greatest shape right now. Times are tough. Koreans don't have as much money as foreigners and that is fact. Even with NASL's financial aid, Koreans still have declined to play. I guess that's my biggest problem with this decision, whether the teams' or SC2Con's. It's so short sighted.
If the financial situation is THAT dire in Korea, the course of action they have chosen to take will do 0% to make it better. If they were thinking long-term, they would realize that some money spent now (made minor by NASL's help) is worth it, because in the long-term, the exposure they get will help them get Western sponsors, which they need to survive. Look at PuMa. He was fairly unknown until NASL. He didn't even play in the entire season, yet now, he's almost a household name in SC2. If you are a good team manager, you look at things like that and see a big fat OPPORTUNITY written all over it. That's something you can sell to sponsors.
I agree. Hate to sound clicheish but you have to spend money to make money. Sometimes you have to take risks and seize an opportunity even if it isn't a 100% guaranteed. For example, imagine if MVP team does end up sending some players and one of them wins the whole thing. Can you imagine the publicity that they and he would get, especially after all this drama. Sponsors would be tripping each other up to be the 1st to sign them.
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I somewhat disagree in this specific case. Some teams are in a pretty bad spot and can't even afford the security deposit. TSL for one would have had to pay a hefty $1,500 and we all know about their situation. Let me ask you this, would you rather the teams pull out before the actual season gets going with 3 weeks to find replacements or pull out at the Grand Finals because they can't afford it? The ideal situation is of course to pull out before contracts were signed, but unfortunately that time has passed. Do you want the Koreans to continue to knock out players for the Grand Finals they won't be able to attend?
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This is the second set of drama in the past week regarding legality, contracts and what not. The only common denominator is SC2Con. Not to mention they were way wrong the last time...
I will reserve judgement till I see a riposte from NASL, but something is very fishy here...
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On August 14 2011 11:31 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 11:18 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:14 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:
[quote]
White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2.
NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK.
They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more?
I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given.
I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it.
What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really.
white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances? You're missing the point. He's saying that if NASL isnt helping other players/teams (like White-Ra) get to finals, why should they have to help the Koreans. Times are tough for everybody. The world economy isn't exactly in the greatest shape right now. Times are tough. Koreans don't have as much money as foreigners and that is fact. Even with NASL's financial aid, Koreans still have declined to play. I guess that's my biggest problem with this decision, whether the teams' or SC2Con's. It's so short sighted.
If the financial situation is THAT dire in Korea, the course of action they have chosen to take will do 0% to make it better. If they were thinking long-term, they would realize that some money spent now (made minor by NASL's help) is worth it, because in the long-term, the exposure they get will help them get Western sponsors, which they need to survive. Look at PuMa. He was fairly unknown until NASL. He didn't even play in the entire season, yet now, he's almost a household name in SC2. If you are a good team manager, you look at things like that and see a big fat OPPORTUNITY written all over it. That's something you can sell to sponsors. I agree. Hate to sound clicheish but you have to spend money to make money. Sometimes you have to take risks and seize an opportunity even if it isn't a 100% guaranteed. For example, imagine if MVP team does end up sending some players and one of them wins the whole thing. Can you imagine the publicity that they and he would get, especially after all this drama. Sponsors would be tripping each other up to be the 1st to sign them.
Exactly. Without NASL, I don't think PuMa could score many sponsors. With NASL? I'd be surprised if he wasn't already in negotiations with some.
Like I said, a good business manager thinks long-term and realizes the importance of these tournaments, and knows how they can be used. It's like alchemy. You take simple participation in a tournament and you turn it into gold.
I'm concerned because it doesn't seem like Korean management does this. If they don't, I can guarantee that players will continue going to foreign teams.
And I wouldn't even blame them. This is a career. The goal is to make money. If you're not making it, what's the point?
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On August 14 2011 11:31 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 11:18 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:14 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:
[quote]
White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2.
NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK.
They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more?
I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given.
I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it.
What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really.
white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances? You're missing the point. He's saying that if NASL isnt helping other players/teams (like White-Ra) get to finals, why should they have to help the Koreans. Times are tough for everybody. The world economy isn't exactly in the greatest shape right now. Times are tough. Koreans don't have as much money as foreigners and that is fact. Even with NASL's financial aid, Koreans still have declined to play. I guess that's my biggest problem with this decision, whether the teams' or SC2Con's. It's so short sighted.
If the financial situation is THAT dire in Korea, the course of action they have chosen to take will do 0% to make it better. If they were thinking long-term, they would realize that some money spent now (made minor by NASL's help) is worth it, because in the long-term, the exposure they get will help them get Western sponsors, which they need to survive. Look at PuMa. He was fairly unknown until NASL. He didn't even play in the entire season, yet now, he's almost a household name in SC2. If you are a good team manager, you look at things like that and see a big fat OPPORTUNITY written all over it. That's something you can sell to sponsors. I agree. Hate to sound clicheish but you have to spend money to make money. Sometimes you have to take risks and seize an opportunity even if it isn't a 100% guaranteed. For example, imagine if MVP team does end up sending some players and one of them wins the whole thing. Can you imagine the publicity that they and he would get, especially after all this drama. Sponsors would be tripping each other up to be the 1st to sign them.
Unfortuneatly, I doubt korean sponsors would be tripping each other up to be the first to sign them because they win an western tournament.
But, on the matter of spending money to make money; they just need to win 1 round in the finals to have made money from it. And if they win the whole thing, which is more likely then unlikely tbh, then they'd really see a return of their investment.
Maybe they'd even get to send over several players. Even more prizemoney then.
It is shortsighted, but I'm sure they realize it as well. Which must mean that the economical situation amongst the korean teams are very dire atm.
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On August 14 2011 09:38 Carbonthief wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! I want to say right now, that I fully support NASL and NASL's efforts, and even though tuition hikes have dictated that I cannot afford a season ticket this time, I will still continue to watch the stream and fully support NASL and NA e-sports. I don't know what the hell is going on but I have lost respect for every Korean team involved in this situation as well as the SC2Con. This entire situation is absurd. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior. They're breaking contract plain and simple, and instead of providing a timely professional simple clean cut explanation, we get convoluted bullshit and passing the buck. So great is the confusion, that noone even knows what the hell the confusion is about, or who is confused. Could, maybe, possibly, someone give NASL a reasonable explanation, a pointed statement of some kind, instead of beating around the bush?
Youve lost respect for korean teams because they chose not to play in a league, simply because they can not afford it?
That seems pretty shortsighted of you.
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On August 14 2011 11:34 xBillehx wrote:
I somewhat disagree in this specific case. Some teams are in a pretty bad spot and can't even afford the security deposit. TSL for one would have had to pay a hefty $1,500 and we all know about their situation. Let me ask you this, would you rather the teams pull out before the actual season gets going with 3 weeks to find replacements or pull out at the Grand Finals because they can't afford it? The ideal situation is of course to pull out before contracts were signed, but unfortunately that time has passed. Do you want the Koreans to continue to knock out players for the Grand Finals they won't be able to attend?
Unfortunately they did pull out after the actual season had started. NASL had already filmed 2 days worth of matches. And again, if they couldn't afford the deposit, the travel expenses, etc. they knew that BEFORE they signed the contracts. Its not like they signed the contracts thinking they had the money and then 15 days laters viola their piggy bank is empty.
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On August 14 2011 11:40 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:38 Carbonthief wrote:On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! I want to say right now, that I fully support NASL and NASL's efforts, and even though tuition hikes have dictated that I cannot afford a season ticket this time, I will still continue to watch the stream and fully support NASL and NA e-sports. I don't know what the hell is going on but I have lost respect for every Korean team involved in this situation as well as the SC2Con. This entire situation is absurd. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior. They're breaking contract plain and simple, and instead of providing a timely professional simple clean cut explanation, we get convoluted bullshit and passing the buck. So great is the confusion, that noone even knows what the hell the confusion is about, or who is confused. Could, maybe, possibly, someone give NASL a reasonable explanation, a pointed statement of some kind, instead of beating around the bush? Youve lost respect for korean teams because they chose not to play in a league, simply because they can not afford it? That seems pretty shortsighted of you.
Oh don't be so selective like that. He is obviously referring to the way that SC2Con went about the situation and using that as deserving of blame, not that Koreans are poor.
And none of us know what they can or can't afford. But even if true, there were much better ways of dealing with this, such as notifying NASL in a timly manner and not breaching contracts, sending only a few players that they CAN afford, etc etc.
Then combine that with SC2Con not letting FXO and MVP participate, and issuing a statement saying they're not involved when they are?
Yeah, that kind of stuff does make a lot of people lose respect.
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On August 14 2011 09:47 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:45 Defacer wrote:
FXOBoss or anyone else,
What are the benefits of dealing with SC2Con, exactly? And what do they actually do as a governing organization?
Do they have a board of governors?
A charter of player's rights?
Do they offer health insurance?
Are they financially liable in anyway?
I'm not being facetious. Most union's or independent organizations actually do something or have so kind of mission or agenda. What is theirs?
And finally the correct question has been asked! Answer: + Show Spoiler +They read the rules to the coaches before GTSL matches
sc2con does offer courtesy training for pro gamers, also arrange some meetings, football games etc.
it's kinda like player's association.
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I'm not sure if it's people's nature to distrust or be paranoid but I'm not sure why people have so much confusion over what's happening.
Korean teams with players in NASL sign a contract.
Later, they feel they will need money to send their players to the Grand Finals.
NASL and korean teams discuss terms but cannot come to an agreement.
Korean teams withdraw players from NASL.
NASL makes statement that the koreans will not be playing in the NASL and that the decision was made by SC2Con.
SC2Con officially state that they have no involvement in the teams' decisions and that SC2Con itself was never consulted by the NASL either.
NASL admits that they assumed that the committee of teams was SC2Con (SC2Con denies this).
There is still issue of SC2Con supposedly denying FXO and MVP from participating in the NASL but there are no official statements about this anywhere as far as I know.
As far as I know these are the facts of the the situation. The drama seems to be coming from the discussion of Korean's withdraw after they've signed a contract and also if SC2Con is actively trying to deny koreans participation in NASL (which makes no sense at all because we don't know any details yet and whether if that statement is accurate).
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I imagine all will be clear when the Korean teams release their statements, as I'm sure they are bound to do any day now...
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On August 14 2011 11:36 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:31 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 11:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 11:18 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:14 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:
[quote]
white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports.
Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances? You're missing the point. He's saying that if NASL isnt helping other players/teams (like White-Ra) get to finals, why should they have to help the Koreans. Times are tough for everybody. The world economy isn't exactly in the greatest shape right now. Times are tough. Koreans don't have as much money as foreigners and that is fact. Even with NASL's financial aid, Koreans still have declined to play. I guess that's my biggest problem with this decision, whether the teams' or SC2Con's. It's so short sighted.
If the financial situation is THAT dire in Korea, the course of action they have chosen to take will do 0% to make it better. If they were thinking long-term, they would realize that some money spent now (made minor by NASL's help) is worth it, because in the long-term, the exposure they get will help them get Western sponsors, which they need to survive. Look at PuMa. He was fairly unknown until NASL. He didn't even play in the entire season, yet now, he's almost a household name in SC2. If you are a good team manager, you look at things like that and see a big fat OPPORTUNITY written all over it. That's something you can sell to sponsors. I agree. Hate to sound clicheish but you have to spend money to make money. Sometimes you have to take risks and seize an opportunity even if it isn't a 100% guaranteed. For example, imagine if MVP team does end up sending some players and one of them wins the whole thing. Can you imagine the publicity that they and he would get, especially after all this drama. Sponsors would be tripping each other up to be the 1st to sign them. Exactly. Without NASL, I don't think PuMa could score many sponsors. With NASL? I'd be surprised if he wasn't already in negotiations with some. Like I said, a good business manager thinks long-term and realizes the importance of these tournaments, and knows how they can be used. It's like alchemy. You take simple participation in a tournament and you turn it into gold. I'm concerned because it doesn't seem like Korean management does this. If they don't, I can guarantee that players will continue going to foreign teams. And I wouldn't even blame them. This is a career. The goal is to make money. If you're not making it, what's the point?
actually if you look at how the korean sc2 progaming scene is run, i highly doubt the teams have good business managers.
i mean look at how most players had no formal contracts with the teams, and you look at how they tried to negotiate with the NASL. i dont think they really weighed the long term possibilities/consequences of this before making their decision
from what i see most korean teams are just a bunch of players grouped together with no proper organizational structure (in the business sense of the term). I mean the only administrative guy on the team seems to be the team manager...
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On August 14 2011 11:51 nitdkim wrote:
I'm not sure if it's people's nature to distrust or be paranoid but I'm not sure why people have so much confusion over what's happening.
Korean teams with players in NASL sign a contract.
Later, they feel they will need money to send their players to the Grand Finals.
NASL and korean teams discuss terms but cannot come to an agreement.
Korean teams withdraw players from NASL.
NASL makes statement that the koreans will not be playing in the NASL and that the decision was made by SC2Con.
SC2Con officially state that they have no involvement in the teams' decisions and that SC2Con itself was never consulted by the NASL either.
NASL admits that they assumed that the committee of teams was SC2Con (SC2Con denies this).
There is still issue of SC2Con supposedly denying FXO and MVP from participating in the NASL but there are no official statements about this anywhere as far as I know.
As far as I know these are the facts of the the situation. The drama seems to be coming from the discussion of Korean's withdraw after they've signed a contract and also if SC2Con is actively trying to deny koreans participation in NASL (which makes no sense at all because we don't know any details yet and whether if that statement is accurate).
There is confusion because of what you say in your last paragraph. Not because of the facts. Most the people know what the facts are. Don't you find it odd that sc2con is trying to prevent teams from participating in NASL even though they say they aren't involved in this? And don't you agree that breaking a contract is bad?
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On August 14 2011 11:55 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:51 nitdkim wrote:
I'm not sure if it's people's nature to distrust or be paranoid but I'm not sure why people have so much confusion over what's happening.
Korean teams with players in NASL sign a contract.
Later, they feel they will need money to send their players to the Grand Finals.
NASL and korean teams discuss terms but cannot come to an agreement.
Korean teams withdraw players from NASL.
NASL makes statement that the koreans will not be playing in the NASL and that the decision was made by SC2Con.
SC2Con officially state that they have no involvement in the teams' decisions and that SC2Con itself was never consulted by the NASL either.
NASL admits that they assumed that the committee of teams was SC2Con (SC2Con denies this).
There is still issue of SC2Con supposedly denying FXO and MVP from participating in the NASL but there are no official statements about this anywhere as far as I know.
As far as I know these are the facts of the the situation. The drama seems to be coming from the discussion of Korean's withdraw after they've signed a contract and also if SC2Con is actively trying to deny koreans participation in NASL (which makes no sense at all because we don't know any details yet and whether if that statement is accurate). There is confusion because of what you say in your last paragraph. Not because of the facts. Most the people know what the facts are. Don't you find it odd that sc2con is trying to prevent teams from participating in NASL even though they say they aren't involved in this? And don't you agree that breaking a contract is bad?
they said they aren't involved with the teams' decision to withdraw from NASL but they never said anything about FXO and MVP situation. They didn't deny that they are trying to prevent them from participating in NASL and we have almost zero information on that matter so i think it is premature to assume anything on that subject.
There has to be a legitimate reason why they wouldn't want those teams to participate in the NASL. If SC2Con has come to the conclusion that those team's participation in the NASL should be denied, then there must be a good reason for it. Whether people will agree to it or not will be another discussion when we know the reason.
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On August 14 2011 11:34 xBillehx wrote:
I somewhat disagree in this specific case. Some teams are in a pretty bad spot and can't even afford the security deposit. TSL for one would have had to pay a hefty $1,500 and we all know about their situation. Let me ask you this, would you rather the teams pull out before the actual season gets going with 3 weeks to find replacements or pull out at the Grand Finals because they can't afford it? The ideal situation is of course to pull out before contracts were signed, but unfortunately that time has passed. Do you want the Koreans to continue to knock out players for the Grand Finals they won't be able to attend?
Then you never sign the contract. Sure pulling out into day 2 of production isn't as bad as before the Grand Finals, but it doesn't mean it isn't bad. They really screwed over NASL as they now have to delay season 2 a bit while they fill out the league.
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On August 14 2011 11:58 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:55 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 11:51 nitdkim wrote:
I'm not sure if it's people's nature to distrust or be paranoid but I'm not sure why people have so much confusion over what's happening.
Korean teams with players in NASL sign a contract.
Later, they feel they will need money to send their players to the Grand Finals.
NASL and korean teams discuss terms but cannot come to an agreement.
Korean teams withdraw players from NASL.
NASL makes statement that the koreans will not be playing in the NASL and that the decision was made by SC2Con.
SC2Con officially state that they have no involvement in the teams' decisions and that SC2Con itself was never consulted by the NASL either.
NASL admits that they assumed that the committee of teams was SC2Con (SC2Con denies this).
There is still issue of SC2Con supposedly denying FXO and MVP from participating in the NASL but there are no official statements about this anywhere as far as I know.
As far as I know these are the facts of the the situation. The drama seems to be coming from the discussion of Korean's withdraw after they've signed a contract and also if SC2Con is actively trying to deny koreans participation in NASL (which makes no sense at all because we don't know any details yet and whether if that statement is accurate). There is confusion because of what you say in your last paragraph. Not because of the facts. Most the people know what the facts are. Don't you find it odd that sc2con is trying to prevent teams from participating in NASL even though they say they aren't involved in this? And don't you agree that breaking a contract is bad? they said they aren't involved with the teams' decision to withdraw from NASL but they never said anything about FXO and MVP situation. They didn't deny that they are trying to prevent them from participating in NASL and we have almost zero information on that matter so i think it is premature to assume anything on that subject.
By trying to prevent teams from joining, sc2con is involving themselves in this whole ordeal and I find it really hard to believe that they weren't involved from the start. Why join in now? There is an awful lot of shadiness going on with sc2con lately.
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EPT
