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OK this is getting confused and seriously out of hand.
Im just gonna sit down, ignore everything that is going on, and come back in like 10 days or so and see where we are at.
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On August 14 2011 10:04 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:01 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 09:57 Blitz Beat wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. If anyone from NASL can post the contract that the teams signed, that would be appreciated and would probably clear this whole mess up instantly. But until said contract or details are posted... I don't know if the contract bound the teams to participate in the NASL after qualifying. It might have just been a rules and code of conduct spiel for all I know or it could have said "If you sign this you name your first child Russell". Kinda have to reserve judgement when it comes to the whole contract debate. NASL stated somewhere, I think the TIG thread, a list of teams and the dates that they signed their Season 2 contracts. Dates don't mean much. Neither does the fact that the teams signed a contract. Its what the contract includes and details that is relevant. If the contract says "you can participate since you qualified", then its NASL's fault since they made participation optional. If the contract says "you must participate or be liable to any monetary damages and costs" then its the teams fault. Wording is important, especially since NASL put their whole argument in this one basket of "we have a contract". Doesn't mean anything if the contract is worthless.
Yeah I misread the question.
But, do you honestly think their contract simply states, "You can participate?"
I highly doubt that.I mean, at that point, what's the purpose of a contract?
I'm sure NASL's contract is like anyone else's contract, which states, "By signing this you are agreeing to participate under ____ rules/conditions."
I mean, we're not talking about kiddie stuff, we're talking about legal contracts, and legal contracts are always worded in a way that it BINDS two parties to something, lists the conditions, and lists the penalties.
Anything that doesn't have those 3 things can't be called a contract, because by definition, a contract has those things.
We can argue all possibilities, sure, but I think we need to take probabilities into account too. I mean otherwise, we can sit here and discuss how Russell is actually a robot and demand proof that he is human.
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On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money.
Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more.
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On August 14 2011 10:04 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:01 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 09:57 Blitz Beat wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. If anyone from NASL can post the contract that the teams signed, that would be appreciated and would probably clear this whole mess up instantly. But until said contract or details are posted... I don't know if the contract bound the teams to participate in the NASL after qualifying. It might have just been a rules and code of conduct spiel for all I know or it could have said "If you sign this you name your first child Russell". Kinda have to reserve judgement when it comes to the whole contract debate. NASL stated somewhere, I think the TIG thread, a list of teams and the dates that they signed their Season 2 contracts. Dates don't mean much. Neither does the fact that the teams signed a contract. Its what the contract includes and details that is relevant. If the contract says "you can participate since you qualified", then its NASL's fault since they made participation optional. If the contract says "you must participate or be liable to any monetary damages and costs" then its the teams fault. Wording is important, especially since NASL put their whole argument in this one basket of "we have a contract". Doesn't mean anything if the contract is worthless.
I think you're asking for a bit much. There aren't a whole lot of companies that would scan a copy of a signed contract and post it up for the world to see just to prove a point. There aren't even that many companies that would be willing to post the full language of their contracts on a forum like this for that purpose either. Barring some incredible level on incompetence from their legal department, I think it's pretty safe to say that the contract wouldn't say "If you sign this you name your first child Russell."
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On August 14 2011 10:09 Carbonthief wrote:
Puma: Not contracted to TSL, wants to join EG, Puma immoral person.
SC2Con/Group of Korean teams/Who the hell even knows anymore: Signs contract, makes unreasonable demands, has unreasonable demands met, breaches contract anyways.
And... they think that's ok? They think that's an ok thing to do? What the fuck?
Welcome to Korea!
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On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more.
White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2.
NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK.
They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more?
I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given.
I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it.
What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really.
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On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. <snip> I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really.
The Korean teams/players may not directly gain anything by not participating in NASL (which is why I'm sure many would like to if they could). Unfortunately, unless NASL can recuperate damage via a clause in their contract with the players, NASL will face losses.
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This situation is getting ridiculous, there is nothing but both parties pointing fingers and dodging blame. We need to find out what actually happened, what do the Korean teams have to say about this?
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TBH I just hope that sC and the MVP players can play. Who on MVP qualified?
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On August 14 2011 10:22 JSy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. <snip> I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. The Korean teams/players may not directly gain anything by not participating in NASL (which is why I'm sure many would like to if they could). Unfortunately, unless NASL can recuperate damage via a clause in their contract with the players, NASL will face losses.
Oh I agree. I guess I was trying to say that the Koreans' loss would be more of a self-inflicted wound, whereas NASL's losses are at the mercy of someone else.
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It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake.
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On August 14 2011 10:23 FairForever wrote:
TBH I just hope that sC and the MVP players can play. Who on MVP qualified?
I don't think any players from MVP qualified. So it looks like NASL has been contacting other Korean teams.
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On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake.
I agree with this. All the SC2Con teams unite in a decision to break contracts that they signed, but, it's not SC2Con? Then what is it then? And what is the SC2Con for?
Like what if all team liquid pros, managers, and moderators put together a post saying that they would not play in the NASL, but then later TL released a statement saying this was not a TL decision?
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On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake.
I greatly disagree. Things aren't going well for sc2 in Korea. I mean teams can't afford to pay the travel difference after getting a $1000 stipend. Also there are very limited opportunities in Korea. Quite frankly I see a lot of Korean players moving to foreign teams. You think that Rain, Puma, and others that have already made the move don't talk to their old teammates and tell them how they get to play in so many tournaments, get a salary and so on? Korea has the best players. The West has the money and wants the best players. Somethings gotta give.
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On August 14 2011 10:42 Carbonthief wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake. I agree with this. All the SC2Con teams unite in a decision to break contracts that they signed, but, it's not SC2Con? Then what is it then? And what is the SC2Con for? Like what if all team liquid pros, managers, and moderators put together a post saying that they would not play in the NASL, but then later TL released a statement saying this was not a TL decision?
It would be more like Hot_Bid making a post saying that TL hates horses then everyone else on TL saying that they love horses. Your analogy is quite opposite.
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On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really.
white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports.
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On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports.
Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though.
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On August 14 2011 10:45 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:42 Carbonthief wrote:On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake. I agree with this. All the SC2Con teams unite in a decision to break contracts that they signed, but, it's not SC2Con? Then what is it then? And what is the SC2Con for? Like what if all team liquid pros, managers, and moderators put together a post saying that they would not play in the NASL, but then later TL released a statement saying this was not a TL decision? It would be more like Hot_Bid making a post saying that TL hates horses then everyone else on TL saying that they love horses. Your analogy is quite opposite.
Ok so to extend your analogy, who is saying that they love horses they want to actually play in the NASL, and who is Hot_Bid not letting them?
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On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports.
Yeah, but he still paid for his ticket own his own.
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EPT
