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P.S., I don't think this changes the tenor of the discussion, but it is news that SC2CON denies involvement in the decision to pull out of NASL and that a statement from the team themselves will be forthcoming. No point in laying blame on anyone! Just hope NASL can figure things out to make a great season 2 and that we'll see more Korean players abroad in the future!
Searched the forum and checked the past 15 pages of the original NASL thread and didn't see this mentioned (although some recent posts read like maybe it has been posted already? So if it has already been brought up you may slap me. :/
[edit: cleaned up translation. made it clear that S2CON is saying that the conference itself was NOT directing the decision to pull out of NASL]
Post on S2CON's website on their perspective of the current NASL dispute/troubles.
The events leading to the recent NASL troubles were not actions taken under the supervision S2CON, but rather were actions taken by the individual teams. We believe the teams are currently preparing a statement to express their thoughts and opinions on the matter.
*We are baffled by NASL constantly referring to S2CON in this matter. The conference has not transmitted nor received any official communication with NASL.
(emphasis added )
Addendum 1
reply by NASL.tv (on page2):
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible!
It appears to have been a (completely understandable) mistake, not a hostile attempt to point fingers at S2CON. So let's not get on that bandwagon, people.. (btw, it appears it is S2CON and not SC2CON -.-;; )
Addendum 2
I fixed the translation a bit to clarify. The post by S2CON does NOT say that they had nothing to do with the decision to withdraw. They just basically say that it didn't not happen under their supervision (i.e., was not an officail S2CON decision, etc.).
It may sound a bit like semantics, but if S2CON has a board separate from the teams themselves or even teams that are a part of S2CON but were not participating in NASL from the beginning, then you can understand why they might want to put a little distance between themselves and this issue.
Of course, it still doesn't answer any questions other than to let us know that the teams that were involved in the withdrawal are indeed preparing a statement.
Original link and Korean text:
+ Show Spoiler +NASL 관련 협의회 입장입니다.조회 수 476 추천 수 0 2011.08.14 00:44:25 http://s2con.com/xe/8460금번 NASL 관련 분쟁은 스타크래프트 II 협의회 주관하에 진행된 내용이 아닌, 각 게임단 자체적으로 진행된 내용입니다. 이와 관련하여 해당 게임단들이 입장 표명을 준비중인것으로 알고 있습니다. * NASL측에서 왜 계속 협의회를 거론하는지에 대해 의문입니다. 협의회에서는 공식적인 내용을 전달한적도, 전달 받은적도 없습니다.
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I think at this point we're all tired and wary of sc2con and their awfully poor attempts in mitigating blames. It's obvious that they are not the proper governing body for korean starcraft 2.
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Unfortunately true. Majority of Korean posters have been saying the same on TIG, PlayXP (even the GOMtv forums). Not to mention a member of their advisory board has posted a very long and detailed article ( http://s2con.com/xe/column/8442 ) criticizing the conference.
Makes me wonder, what exactly is the structure and politics of SC2CON and its relationship with the teams, the managers, and most importantly players.
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What? I love your work primadog but how is this blame gaming? They're clarifying that this wasn't some sc2con decision and due to mistranslations of the original article this is putting blame on sc2con when this involves only 4 teams. Milkis and antoine posted about it already in the other thread. Also NHY posted this in that thread on page 170.
I'm waiting til I hear the individual teams statement before making any further confusions since thiss whole thing sounds like over sensational posting from both nasl and the original translators and tig forums. Nothing aside from this has been official from sc2con or thr teams and were already jumping to conclusions? Did we learn nothing from the puma and eg scenario?
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SC2CON has an hand in about a month's worth of drama at this point. That alone demonstrates that it is not a proper or a professional enough party to represent Korean StarCraft.
Remember that SC2CON has representatives from every single korean team (except Slayer, which is associated in some sort), this is an opportunity for it to represent an united front to address the koreans' grievances properly, rather than saying this got nothing to do with us.
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The correct way to handle this situation would have been for SC2CON to take the "blame" for this and take the heat off the players and teams in their organization instead of laying it squarely on their shoulders. At least, that's my perception of what the organization is supposed to be; I'm not clear on what exactly SC2CON's purpose is in the Korean eSports landscape.
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so sc2con had no involvement and NASL keps saying they do when it was auctally the teams themselves pulling out?
so NASL is bascially putting blame on a gorup who isn't to blame. Korean sc2 netizens know this but NASL is still putting the blame on sc2con
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
Color me not surprised that the NASL's self-serving statements are more than a little inaccurate.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
So wait, all the teams collectively decided against participating in the 2nd season, but the entity which represents that collective wasn't involved? How does that work? And I though Mr Chae was working as a liason between the two parties?
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More drama. So what was it? NASL seems to think they were negotiating with korean teams as a whole and the korean teams seem to think that despite them all making the same demands and dealing collectively they were all working individually. Obviously something got lost in translation or there is more to this story.
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Doesn't SC2con consist of the teams?
Honestly I don't see a major difference if it's SC2con or the teams all participating together stating this since they consist of the same major people right?
It's not like KeSPA where KeSPA consists of players not on any teams for the most part.
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Wait I'm a little confused about OP.
Is SC2Con saying they were not involved?
Didn't Mr.Chae say they were, when he was acting as mediator?
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On August 14 2011 08:57 Telcontar wrote:
So wait, all the teams collectively decided against participating in the 2nd season, but the entity which represents that collective wasn't involved? How does that work? And I though Mr Chae was working as a liason between the two parties?
yeah it makes no sense since the entity which represents that collective (SC2CON) is made up of managers/coaches from each of those teams. the translation seems kind of messed up.
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On August 14 2011 08:57 Lord_J wrote:
Color me not surprised that the NASL's self-serving statements are more than a little inaccurate.
I would hold that judgment until this is clarified, because more than one party singled out SC2Con as being a part of the negotiations.
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So basically a group of teams decided to act collectively when negotiating with NASL. The small group of teams, although part of SC2CON, does not represent SC2CON. NASL doesn't understand the difference and makes accusations against SC2CON.
-_-
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On August 14 2011 08:59 whateverpeeps wrote:
Wait I'm a little confused about OP.
Is SC2Con saying they were not involved?
Didn't Mr.Chae say they were, when he was acting as mediator?
Well, SC2Con is just saying that the decision to not participate is each team's decision and that SC2Con doesn't have control over that in any way. I was confused by the NASL thread why NASL kept referring to SC2Con when it seemed like it was the individual team's decision not to participate.
It says that each team seems to be preparing their own statement on the matter. We'll see each team's reasons why they're not participating. I don't really think the teams really need to make a statement on the matter... They don't like the way NASL wants to do things and the team and NASL couldn't reach an agreement. The end. Why so much drama?
Edit: SC2Con doesn't understand why NASL keeps referring to SC2Con when there were no official statements passed between NASL and SC2Con.
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This is getting pretty convoluted.
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So it was that other collective of Korean Starcraft 2 teams? Either SC2Con is inept for making questionable decisions or inept for not having any control on the scene they claim to represent.
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Hmmmm very interesting as FXOBoss, who is a part of sc2con, said he had to talk to sc2con to see if he could allow sC to play. Why would a member need to talk to sc2con if they didn't have anything to do with this?
And why was Mr Chae even involved if sc2con isn't? He has a role on sc2con I thought and thats why he was mediating, especially since the teams never responded to NASL.
And the TIG article states sc2con is involved and prohibits Korean teams other than FXOKorea do not participate in NASL.
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On August 14 2011 09:02 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 08:59 whateverpeeps wrote:
Wait I'm a little confused about OP.
Is SC2Con saying they were not involved?
Didn't Mr.Chae say they were, when he was acting as mediator? Well, SC2Con is just saying that the decision to not participate is each team's decision and that SC2Con doesn't have control over that in any way. I was confused by the NASL thread why NASL kept referring to SC2Con when it seemed like it was the individual team's decision not to participate.
Hm.
I want to see NASL's response to this, because both Mr.Chae and NASL said it was SC2Con's decision.
This almost seems like a deflection of blame.
I will also be waiting to see the teams' response, if one ever comes.
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On August 14 2011 09:03 Bear4188 wrote:
So it was that other collective of Korean Starcraft 2 teams? Either SC2Con is inept for making questionable decisions or inept for not having any control on the scene they claim to represent.
I'm not sure why you think SC2Con needs to involved in the NASL situation at all. NASL is just league that players can choose to participate in. It's not like a GSTL or a team based commitment.
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On August 14 2011 09:02 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 08:59 whateverpeeps wrote:
Wait I'm a little confused about OP.
Is SC2Con saying they were not involved?
Didn't Mr.Chae say they were, when he was acting as mediator? Well, SC2Con is just saying that the decision to not participate is each team's decision and that SC2Con doesn't have control over that in any way. I was confused by the NASL thread why NASL kept referring to SC2Con when it seemed like it was the individual team's decision not to participate.
but SC2Con is made up of managers/coaches from each of those teams except Slayers so it doesn't make any sense.
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On August 14 2011 09:05 jmbthirteen wrote:
Hmmmm very interesting as FXOBoss, who is a part of sc2con, said he had to talk to sc2con to see if he could allow sC to play. Why would a member need to talk to sc2con if they didn't have anything to do with this?
And why was Mr Chae even involved if sc2con isn't? He has a role on sc2con I thought and thats why he was mediating, especially since the teams never responded to NASL.
And the TIG article states sc2con is involved and prohibits Korean teams other than FXOKorea do not participate in NASL.
He had not heard anything offcial until that NASL statement. So he was assuming that what NASL had said was true.
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On August 14 2011 09:05 jmbthirteen wrote:
Hmmmm very interesting as FXOBoss, who is a part of sc2con, said he had to talk to sc2con to see if he could allow sC to play. Why would a member need to talk to sc2con if they didn't have anything to do with this?
And why was Mr Chae even involved if sc2con isn't? He has a role on sc2con I thought and thats why he was mediating, especially since the teams never responded to NASL.
And the TIG article states sc2con is involved and prohibits Korean teams other than FXOKorea do not participate in NASL.
Yeah, I forgot about the TIG article, which was written by a guy who was in SC2Con correct? He didn't seem to mention anything about individual teams making the decision, but rather the committe.
Yikes @SC2Con if this happens to be untrue, that's all I have to say.
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On August 14 2011 08:57 Lord_J wrote:
Color me not surprised that the NASL's self-serving statements are more than a little inaccurate.
Seems to me that its just not NASL saying things about SC2Con, I mean if you have Korean fans questioning their actions and even a member of their advisory board doing the same, that says something isnt right.
On August 14 2011 08:49 JSy wrote:Unfortunately true. Majority of Korean posters have been saying the same on TIG, PlayXP (even the GOMtv forums). Not to mention a member of their advisory board has posted a very long and detailed article ( http://s2con.com/xe/column/8442 ) criticizing the conference. Makes me wonder, what exactly is the structure and politics of SC2CON and its relationship with the teams, the managers, and most importantly players.
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699 Posts
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible!
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Wait, didn't the reporter who is "part of SC2con" said the committee made the decision due to blah blah. I'm confused
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On August 14 2011 09:07 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:05 jmbthirteen wrote:
Hmmmm very interesting as FXOBoss, who is a part of sc2con, said he had to talk to sc2con to see if he could allow sC to play. Why would a member need to talk to sc2con if they didn't have anything to do with this?
And why was Mr Chae even involved if sc2con isn't? He has a role on sc2con I thought and thats why he was mediating, especially since the teams never responded to NASL.
And the TIG article states sc2con is involved and prohibits Korean teams other than FXOKorea do not participate in NASL. He had not heard anything offcial until that NASL statement. So he was assuming that what NASL had said was true.
Well on his stream the night after this news broke, I asked him about sC and thats when he was talking about sc2con. I'd imagine a member of sc2con knew what was going on.
And the TIG artcile was written by a TIG advisor. And Mr Chae referred to sc2con as well.
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On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible!
Well there we go.
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The recent troubles with NASL were the result of SC2CON's actions, but rather were actions taken by the individual teams.
Did you miss the "NOT" in the first sentence, or else it does not make much sense.
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Isn't the SC2Con the collective bargaining entity for all of those individual teams? It seems difficult to believe that all of these teams were negotiating and making these demands separately rather than as a collective.
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On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible!
And there we go some more
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On August 14 2011 09:14 LegendaryZ wrote:
Isn't the SC2Con the collective bargaining entity for all of those individual teams? It seems difficult to believe that all of these teams were negotiating and making these demands separately rather than as a collective.
They were collective (it seems). But they don't represent SC2Con.
If you have a complicated situation and there are 5 others in that same boat as you... It's pretty much common sense to discuss among each other.
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On August 14 2011 09:13 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! Well there we go.
Did you ignore the rest of the post?
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On August 14 2011 09:16 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:13 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! Well there we go. Did you ignore the rest of the post?
lol, the first paragraph made everything make sense, then the other 2 paragraph just made me more puzzled. Korea's really confusing.
Let's hope these team announcement come quickly.
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On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible!
Wait so, this is even more confusing. So, why then, is SC2Con trying to block FXO and MVP from participating, if they are not involved?
I mean, if this was purely a decision by a collective of teams, why are they blocking my teams who have reached an independent decision to participate?
Because then it sounds like to me, that SC2Con IS involved and HAS issued a decision?
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Now this just sounds like SC2con came to a decision to not send players to NASL, and now are telling each team to say it was their own decision. Why else would MVP and FXO go through SC2con.
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On August 14 2011 09:16 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:13 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! Well there we go. Did you ignore the rest of the post?
I think they reinforce why NASL assumed SC2Con was behind what the individual teams have decided.
Issue is that SC2Con claims that they had nothing to do with the teams not participating in NASL but NASL claimed it was SC2Con's decision. Now NASL says they just used SC2Con's name because they assumed SC2Con was behind it since it was a committee of teams (just a committee).
The SC2Con actions with sC and team MVP reinforced NASL's assumption because SC2Con seems involved with teams and players attending NASL. These are assumptions but we do have official statement from SC2Con that they were not involved with the teams deciding not to particiate and NASL.tv's own words that they just used SC2Con's name because they didn't want to say team committee over and over again.
I hope this makes sense.
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Shady organization denying involvement in a shady situation?
I'm so shocked.......
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However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
That seems to reinforce that SC2Con was in fact part of the decison making process. Cause if they weren't why stop FXO and the MVP team from going?
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On August 14 2011 09:21 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Shady organization denying involvement in a shady situation?
I'm so shocked.......
I'm shocked you're the one to say this.
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meh, sc2con seems to be plagued with drama and controversy now.
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On August 14 2011 09:15 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:14 LegendaryZ wrote:
Isn't the SC2Con the collective bargaining entity for all of those individual teams? It seems difficult to believe that all of these teams were negotiating and making these demands separately rather than as a collective. They were collective (it seems). But they don't represent SC2Con. If you have a complicated situation and there are 5 others in that same boat as you... It's pretty much common sense to discuss among each other.
It seems more like a play on words to attempt to save face rather than anything meaningful. There's effectively no difference between a collective decision and the decision of the collective when it's the same exact people making the decisions in both groups.
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On August 14 2011 09:24 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:21 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Shady organization denying involvement in a shady situation?
I'm so shocked....... I'm shocked you're the one to say this.
?
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I have been away for the weekend and it seems this drama goes on longer than a few threads, can anyone give me a simply TLDR of this whole situation?
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On August 14 2011 09:21 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Shady organization denying involvement in a shady situation?
I'm so shocked.......
Didn't you say one day you would make a post talking about the shady sc2con? If so, please do, and if you have and I overlooked it, link please?
Maybe those collective teams made the decision and as NASL tries to get the teams who weren't a part of that decision into season 2, those teams that made the decision then asked sc2con to support them?
All I know is sc2 in Korea is a mess when it comes to the business side.
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On August 14 2011 09:22 Slider954 wrote:
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
That seems to reinforce that SC2Con was in fact part of the decison making process. Cause if they weren't why stop FXO and the MVP team from going?
Yeah, if it was just a committee of teams making an independent decision to not participate, why would they care what FXO and MVP does, especially now that negotiations are over and the situation is done?
This is REALLY weird...
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On August 14 2011 09:19 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:16 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 09:13 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! Well there we go. Did you ignore the rest of the post? I think they reinforce why NASL assumed SC2Con was behind what the individual teams have decided. Issue is that SC2Con claims that they had nothing to do with the teams not participating in NASL but NASL claimed it was SC2Con's decision. Now NASL says they just used SC2Con's name because they assumed SC2Con was behind it since it was a committee of teams (just a committee). The SC2Con actions with sC and team MVP reinforced NASL's assumption because SC2Con seems involved with teams and players attending NASL. These are assumptions but we do have official statement from SC2Con that they were not involved with the teams deciding not to particiate and NASL.tv's own words that they just used SC2Con's name because they didn't want to say team committee over and over again. I hope this makes sense.
I know what you are saying, but ever think sc2con is full of shit? I mean if they weren't a part of the decision, then why are they trying to prevent FXO and MVP from playing in NASL? They are clearly involved in some way.
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who is the guy writing under the nasltv tag?
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On August 14 2011 09:21 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Shady organization denying involvement in a shady situation?
I'm so shocked.......
How is anything here shady? Alot of people seem overly keen to assume that somebody's to blame and I don't get it.
If anything this mostly seems to be due to misunderstandings. The official NASL post above indicates this, and even though there are some "interesting" bits in his third paragraph, until we know the exact situation from all sides, it's pointless to try to place blame on any party. All it does is stir up trouble.
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On August 14 2011 09:24 GreyKnight wrote:
meh, sc2con seems to be plagued with drama and controversy now.
Its like they are saying this isn't an official sc2con move to save face from all the shit they have been in lately.
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On August 14 2011 09:25 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:22 Slider954 wrote:
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
That seems to reinforce that SC2Con was in fact part of the decison making process. Cause if they weren't why stop FXO and the MVP team from going? Yeah, if it was just a committee of teams making an independent decision to not participate, why would they care what FXO and MVP does, especially now that negotiations are over and the situation is done? This is REALLY weird...
You're assuming that the committee of teams = SC2Con.
We don't really know the context of the FXO and MVP situation so we don't know why SC2Con would be involved in that situation but not the situation with Fox/oGs/etc.
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On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
LoL, no intervention by SC2con my ass. If they are actively blocking MVP, they ARE involved. Don't fall for their stunts.
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So, NASL jumping out with 2 pages of saying SC2con is a bad guy and we're a good guy. Now, it turns out that only 4 teams made decision and it had nothing to do with SC2con. lol...NASL needs to to be more professional than their streaming production tbh.
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On August 14 2011 09:25 Aegeis wrote:
I have been away for the weekend and it seems this drama goes on longer than a few threads, can anyone give me a simply TLDR of this whole situation?
1) NASL made a statement saying that Koreans would not be participating in the league after negotiations failed. Apparently the dispute was over how much money Koreans would receive to attend finals. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750)
2) A reporter made an article on ThisisGame regarding the situation. Although he was not an official voice, he is apparently in SC2Con. He made serveral claims about why the Koreans were withdrawing from the NASL, including saying that NASL was not paying back deposits.
3) NASL responded to the above statements, and showed proof of deposits that have been paid back and stated that they are within their time frame that was agreed upon and signed by team managers.
both here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253928)
4) NASL also issued a statement that the majority of Koreans signed Season 2 contracts 15 days prior to the boycott, and then went back on them after production for Season 2 started.
And the rest is happening right now in this thread...
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For the record WMF isn't part of sc2con and they're also pulling out. Seems like the teams involved did meet themselves. Edit: Not sure of the FXO & MVP thing since theres no context, I'll wait for the official team response to infer further.
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On August 14 2011 09:28 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:24 GreyKnight wrote:
meh, sc2con seems to be plagued with drama and controversy now. Its like they are saying this isn't an official sc2con move to save face from all the shit they have been in lately.
Exactly and yet at the same time, they are still trying to control teams from going or not as evidenced by MVP team not being allowed to go.
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Does not really matter if this does not change the facts of the (unreasonable, imo) demands of the Koreans towards NASL (who come across as tremendously accommodating and generous in the matter).
Whether the Korean teams put forth those demands, or SC2con, or some sort of committee or whether Santa Claus did it does not really matter in the end.
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This is getting craaaaazy. Korea needs to speak the hell up on this issue. Fans want this to happen, seems like there's not this huge issue preventing anything, just some general block by a mysterious entity.
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On August 14 2011 09:29 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:25 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 09:22 Slider954 wrote:
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
That seems to reinforce that SC2Con was in fact part of the decison making process. Cause if they weren't why stop FXO and the MVP team from going? Yeah, if it was just a committee of teams making an independent decision to not participate, why would they care what FXO and MVP does, especially now that negotiations are over and the situation is done? This is REALLY weird... You're assuming that the committee of teams = SC2Con. We don't really know the context of the FXO and MVP situation so we don't know why SC2Con would be involved in that situation but not the situation with Fox/oGs/etc.
No, I'm not. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense. If it WAS just a committee of teams saying they don't want to be in Season 2, then why is SC2Con actively blocking teams which weren't involved in this dispute at all?
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On August 14 2011 09:30 TDN3 wrote:
So, NASL jumping out with 2 pages of saying SC2con is a bad guy and we're a good guy. Now, it turns out that only 4 teams made decision and it had nothing to do with SC2con. lol...NASL needs to to be more professional than their streaming production tbh.
Well sc2con is clearly involved as they are trying to prevent teams from taking part in NASL
And as for the NASL.tv poster, I'd guess its Russ or Xeris.
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On August 14 2011 09:32 Bobster wrote:
Does not really matter if this does not change the facts of the (unreasonable, imo) demands of the Koreans towards NASL (who come across as tremendously accommodating and generous in the matter).
Whether the Korean teams put forth those demands, or SC2con, or some sort of committee or whether Santa Claus did it does not really matter in the end.
Exactly. Obviously saying it was sc2con when it wasn't (and NASL doesn't say sc2 con in the official announcement btw) is wrong. But it doesn't make what the Korean teams did any less wrong.
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On August 14 2011 08:57 Lord_J wrote:
Color me not surprised that the NASL's self-serving statements are more than a little inaccurate.
It's just as likely that SC2Con is being self-serving by pretending that they have no influence or involvement in the business matters of individual teams -- which they obviously do.
Let's reserve judgement until more people speak out.
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Sounds like a complete argument of semantics from the Koreans. Oh, all of the teams agreed under these things, but it wasn't actually the sc2con. So it doesn't count.
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On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible!
I want to say right now, that I fully support NASL and NASL's efforts, and even though tuition hikes have dictated that I cannot afford a season ticket this time, I will still continue to watch the stream and fully support NASL and NA e-sports.
I don't know what the hell is going on but I have lost respect for every Korean team involved in this situation as well as the SC2Con. This entire situation is absurd. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior. They're breaking contract plain and simple, and instead of providing a timely professional simple clean cut explanation, we get convoluted bullshit and passing the buck. So great is the confusion, that noone even knows what the hell the confusion is about, or who is confused. Could, maybe, possibly, someone give NASL a reasonable explanation, a pointed statement of some kind, instead of beating around the bush?
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On August 14 2011 09:14 godemperor wrote:Show nested quote +The recent troubles with NASL were the result of SC2CON's actions, but rather were actions taken by the individual teams. Did you miss the "NOT" in the first sentence, or else it does not make much sense.
o.o Yes I did. Fixed. Thx
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Are we in the dark about FXO and MVP situation and why SC2Con doesn't want them to participate in NASL? If so, I don't think we should tie this situation and that together into 1 problem.
If there are info, could someone link please?
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On August 14 2011 09:37 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Sounds like a complete argument of semantics from the Koreans. Oh, all of the teams agreed under these things, but it wasn't actually the sc2con. So it doesn't count.
That's exactly what I suspect.
It's like a boss telling you that he's going to garnish your wages if you don't work an extra 16 hours a week. But y'know, it's totally your decision.
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On August 14 2011 09:40 nitdkim wrote:
Are we in the dark about FXO and MVP situation and why SC2Con doesn't want them to participate in NASL? If so, I don't think we should tie this situation and that together into 1 problem.
If there are info, could someone link please?
This. If there's no SC2Con involvement then MVP and FXO should be fine to join up. It will be interesting to see what happens.
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If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis.
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On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis.
It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same.
The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned.
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FXOBoss or anyone else,
What are the benefits of dealing with SC2Con, exactly? And what do they actually do as a governing organization?
Do they have a board of governors?
A charter of player's rights?
Do they offer health insurance?
Are they financially liable in anyway?
I'm not being facetious. Most union's or independent organizations actually do something or have so kind of mission or agenda. What is theirs?
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On August 14 2011 09:45 Defacer wrote:
FXOBoss or anyone else,
What are the benefits of dealing with SC2Con, exactly? And what do they actually do as a governing organization?
Do they have a board of governors?
A charter of player's rights?
Do they offer health insurance?
Are they financially liable in anyway?
I'm not being facetious. Most union's or independent organizations actually do something or have so kind of mission or agenda. What is theirs?
And finally the correct question has been asked!
Answer: + Show Spoiler +They read the rules to the coaches before GTSL matches
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On August 14 2011 09:45 Defacer wrote:
FXOBoss or anyone else,
What are the benefits of dealing with SC2Con, exactly? And what do they actually do as a governing organization?
Do they have a board of governors?
A charter of player's rights?
Do they offer health insurance?
Are they financially liable in anyway?
I'm not being facetious. Most union's or independent organizations actually do something or have so kind of mission or agenda. What is theirs?
Sadly I don't think you're going to get much information.
I think the worst part of all of this is that I feel like the people involved, meaning the players and teams like FXO and MVP, are too intimidated to speak openly about the issue because they don't want to be the odd one out.
I just can't put my head around why it matters so much. Where does SC2Con get all of this power and influence from?
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On August 14 2011 09:47 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:45 Defacer wrote:
FXOBoss or anyone else,
What are the benefits of dealing with SC2Con, exactly? And what do they actually do as a governing organization?
Do they have a board of governors?
A charter of player's rights?
Do they offer health insurance?
Are they financially liable in anyway?
I'm not being facetious. Most union's or independent organizations actually do something or have so kind of mission or agenda. What is theirs?
And finally the correct question has been asked! Answer: + Show Spoiler +They read the rules to the coaches before GTSL matches
Are you fucking shitting me? LOL. Well, that's something.
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On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned.
I think its a pretty big deal whether other teams are getting blocked. I mean if some Koreans play its basically free money without the competition for those players. At the amount of money we're talking I can't imagine the players being okay with FXO/MvP players just getting the shot at 100 grand each season.
And if they are, fine. We'll still see great games, there will be a good number of top Koreans and foreigners participating. It will be to the detriment of those teams. If ALL of Korea is blocked, then its just the spectators that lose
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Does the SC2Con exist just because they're used to KeSPA from BW?
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United States33339 Posts
strikes me as a technicality, not anything that had a real difference in effect
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On August 14 2011 09:50 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:47 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On August 14 2011 09:45 Defacer wrote:
FXOBoss or anyone else,
What are the benefits of dealing with SC2Con, exactly? And what do they actually do as a governing organization?
Do they have a board of governors?
A charter of player's rights?
Do they offer health insurance?
Are they financially liable in anyway?
I'm not being facetious. Most union's or independent organizations actually do something or have so kind of mission or agenda. What is theirs?
And finally the correct question has been asked! Answer: + Show Spoiler +They read the rules to the coaches before GTSL matches Are you fucking shitting me? LOL. Well, that's something.
I thought SC2CON was a union made by the players, coaches, and managers. Where they try to establish guidelines on player working conditions, conflicts among teams, and stuff like that.
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Conclusion: Anything involving SC2Con will be convoluted as fuck.
Do they really just read the rules before the GSTL matches?
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On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Then play the matches 1-2 more hours. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that.
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On August 14 2011 09:50 SimDawg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I think its a pretty big deal whether other teams are getting blocked. I mean if some Koreans play its basically free money without the competition for those players. At the amount of money we're talking I can't imagine the players being okay with FXO/MvP players just getting the shot at 100 grand each season. And if they are, fine. We'll still see great games, there will be a good number of top Koreans and foreigners participating. It will be to the detriment of those teams. If ALL of Korea is blocked, then its just the spectators that lose
What I mean is that whether or not sc2con is blocking other teams from participating isn't where this started. It is a new, and fairly important story if it's true. But, that's not what this was originally about, which is where my original post goes back to.
I don't need to know whether it was sc2con or just the teams as a whole who decided to fuck the NASL, because they handled it extremely poorly, regardless of what they call themselves.
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On August 14 2011 09:52 babylon wrote:
Conclusion: Anything involving SC2Con will be convoluted as fuck.
Do they really just read the rules before the GSTL matches?
I have not been able to get ONE person in Korea to explain what they do besides that. So while I'm being a bit sarcastic, it's only because I have looked in SC2CON and found nothing, the argument is always "well it's free to the teams."
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TC should post NASL's full statement from page 2 and not just the beginning part in the original post. Seems very bias from the TC to not post the whole thing, that includes why it's still confusing and the apology.
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On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands.
That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word.
edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means.
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On August 14 2011 09:49 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:45 Defacer wrote:
FXOBoss or anyone else,
What are the benefits of dealing with SC2Con, exactly? And what do they actually do as a governing organization?
Do they have a board of governors?
A charter of player's rights?
Do they offer health insurance?
Are they financially liable in anyway?
I'm not being facetious. Most union's or independent organizations actually do something or have so kind of mission or agenda. What is theirs?
Sadly I don't think you're going to get much information. I think the worst part of all of this is that I feel like the people involved, meaning the players and teams like FXO and MVP, are too intimidated to speak openly about the issue because they don't want to be the odd one out. I just can't put my head around why it matters so much. Where does SC2Con get all of this power and influence from?
It is a Asian thing. The collective is always more important than the individual. If the collective decides the indivudal follows suit. While this condradicts FXOBoss view as a Westerner, he has to take into account that the FXO guys are Koreans and cannot easily go against the other Koreans.
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On August 14 2011 09:47 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:45 Defacer wrote:
FXOBoss or anyone else,
What are the benefits of dealing with SC2Con, exactly? And what do they actually do as a governing organization?
Do they have a board of governors?
A charter of player's rights?
Do they offer health insurance?
Are they financially liable in anyway?
I'm not being facetious. Most union's or independent organizations actually do something or have so kind of mission or agenda. What is theirs?
And finally the correct question has been asked! Answer: + Show Spoiler +They read the rules to the coaches before GTSL matches
It's funny because Boss was saying how he would talk to sc2con to try and get them to allow sC to play and if they wouldn't the decision would be up to sC whether he wanted to play or not and if he did sC would play. Pretty much shows that sc2con is a joke.
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Note, I wanted to fix the translation a bit. The post by S2CON does NOT say that they had nothing to do with the decision. Basically they just say it simply say that it didn't not happen under their supervision (i.e., was not an officail S2CON decision, etc.).
It may sound a bit like semantics, but if S2CON has a board separate from the teams themselves or even teams that are a part of S2CON but were not participating in NASL from the beginning, then you can understand why they might want to put a little distance between themselves and this issue.
Of course, it still doesn't answer any questions other than to let us know that the teams that were involved in the withdrawal are indeed preparing a statement.
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On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means.
If anyone from NASL can post the contract that the teams signed, that would be appreciated and would probably clear this whole mess up instantly.
But until said contract or details are posted... I don't know if the contract bound the teams to participate in the NASL after qualifying. It might have just been a rules and code of conduct spiel for all I know or it could have said "If you sign this you name your first child Russell".
Kinda have to reserve judgement when it comes to the whole contract debate. Afterall, its common place in starcraft to withdraw / decline a tournament spot after qualifications.
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On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Then play the matches 1-2 more hours. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that.
This is the reason that people are up in arms about the situation
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253928¤tpage=18#345
If all the reason you listed made the Koreans hesitant to participate then why did they sign the contracts?
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On August 14 2011 09:57 JSy wrote:
Note, I wanted to fix the translation a bit. The post by S2CON does NOT say that they had nothing to do with the decision. Basically they just say it simply say that it didn't not happen under their supervision (i.e., was not an officail S2CON decision, etc.).
It may sound a bit like semantics, but if S2CON has a board separate from the teams themselves or even teams that are a part of S2CON but were not participating in NASL from the beginning, then you can understand why they might want to put a little distance between themselves and this issue.
Of course, it still doesn't answer any questions other than to let us know that the teams that were involved in the withdrawal are indeed preparing a statement.
So pretty much it is sc2con trying to save face as they have looked like shit recently.
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On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means.
True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action.
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EDIT: nvm, misread the question
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On August 14 2011 09:57 JSy wrote:
Note, I wanted to fix the translation a bit. The post by S2CON does NOT say that they had nothing to do with the decision. Basically they just say it simply say that it didn't not happen under their supervision (i.e., was not an officail S2CON decision, etc.).
It may sound a bit like semantics, but if S2CON has a board separate from the teams themselves or even teams that are a part of S2CON but were not participating in NASL from the beginning, then you can understand why they might want to put a little distance between themselves and this issue.
Of course, it still doesn't answer any questions other than to let us know that the teams that were involved in the withdrawal are indeed preparing a statement.
OP, can you edit the original post to include the entire NASL response?
I think the fact that SC2Con is actively blocking FXO and MVP from participating should be noted, otherwise people may get the wrong idea.
Even after the original translation, people already started to say NASL was purposefully lying, when it doesn't appear to be that.
It would cut down on alot of pointless posts of a person who didn't get to the third page screaming about how NASL are liars, and then 5 people correcting them.
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On August 14 2011 09:52 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:50 Defacer wrote:On August 14 2011 09:47 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On August 14 2011 09:45 Defacer wrote:
FXOBoss or anyone else,
What are the benefits of dealing with SC2Con, exactly? And what do they actually do as a governing organization?
Do they have a board of governors?
A charter of player's rights?
Do they offer health insurance?
Are they financially liable in anyway?
I'm not being facetious. Most union's or independent organizations actually do something or have so kind of mission or agenda. What is theirs?
And finally the correct question has been asked! Answer: + Show Spoiler +They read the rules to the coaches before GTSL matches Are you fucking shitting me? LOL. Well, that's something. I thought SC2CON was a union made by the players, coaches, and managers. Where they try to establish guidelines on player working conditions, conflicts among teams, and stuff like that.
I think that is the intent, but this is what I imagine.
I suspect SC2Con, in actuality, is a small group of 'insiders' or greybeards from the Broodwar days comprised mainly of Team Managers and Coaches, that conspire together and force collusion and conformity between the teams. While they occasionally look out for player rights, they actually limit their opportunities and mobility, enforce working conditions only tolerable in Asian countries, and in general, have no formal process for selecting leaders or making decision.
FXOBoss or anyone else in the know: is this a fair assumption or completely off-base?
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On August 14 2011 10:01 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:57 Blitz Beat wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. If anyone from NASL can post the contract that the teams signed, that would be appreciated and would probably clear this whole mess up instantly. But until said contract or details are posted... I don't know if the contract bound the teams to participate in the NASL after qualifying. It might have just been a rules and code of conduct spiel for all I know or it could have said "If you sign this you name your first child Russell". Kinda have to reserve judgement when it comes to the whole contract debate. NASL stated somewhere, I think the TIG thread, a list of teams and the dates that they signed their Season 2 contracts.
Dates don't mean much. Neither does the fact that the teams signed a contract. Its what the contract includes and details that is relevant. If the contract says "you can participate since you qualified", then its NASL's fault since they made participation optional. If the contract says "you must participate or be liable to any monetary damages and costs" then its the teams fault. Wording is important, especially since NASL put their whole argument in this one basket of "we have a contract". Doesn't mean anything if the contract is worthless.
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On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action.
It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money.
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On August 14 2011 10:04 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:01 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 09:57 Blitz Beat wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. If anyone from NASL can post the contract that the teams signed, that would be appreciated and would probably clear this whole mess up instantly. But until said contract or details are posted... I don't know if the contract bound the teams to participate in the NASL after qualifying. It might have just been a rules and code of conduct spiel for all I know or it could have said "If you sign this you name your first child Russell". Kinda have to reserve judgement when it comes to the whole contract debate. NASL stated somewhere, I think the TIG thread, a list of teams and the dates that they signed their Season 2 contracts. Dates don't mean much. Neither does the fact that the teams signed a contract. Its what the contract includes and details that is relevant. If the contract says "you can participate since you qualified", then its NASL's fault since they made participation optional. If the contract says "you must participate or be liable to any monetary damages and costs" then its the teams fault. Wording is important, especially since NASL put their whole argument in this one basket of "we have a contract". Doesn't mean anything if the contract is worthless.
It would be kind of a blunder on NASL's part if their contract was worded like "If you decide to participate, you would be agreeing to the following terms: !@%$^@$&#&#&#&#&#&#&3&"
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Puma: Not contracted to TSL, wants to join EG, Puma immoral person.
SC2Con/Group of Korean teams/Who the hell even knows anymore: Signs contract, makes unreasonable demands, has unreasonable demands met, breaches contract anyways.
And... they think that's ok? They think that's an ok thing to do? What the fuck?
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On August 14 2011 10:04 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:01 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 09:57 Blitz Beat wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. If anyone from NASL can post the contract that the teams signed, that would be appreciated and would probably clear this whole mess up instantly. But until said contract or details are posted... I don't know if the contract bound the teams to participate in the NASL after qualifying. It might have just been a rules and code of conduct spiel for all I know or it could have said "If you sign this you name your first child Russell". Kinda have to reserve judgement when it comes to the whole contract debate. NASL stated somewhere, I think the TIG thread, a list of teams and the dates that they signed their Season 2 contracts. Dates don't mean much. Neither does the fact that the teams signed a contract. Its what the contract includes and details that is relevant. If the contract says "you can participate since you qualified", then its NASL's fault since they made participation optional. If the contract says "you must participate or be liable to any monetary damages and costs" then its the teams fault. Wording is important, especially since NASL put their whole argument in this one basket of "we have a contract". Doesn't mean anything if the contract is worthless.
I think your selling the NASL short on this one. I highly doubt they would have such terrible contracts. Russ seems like a very smart guy and I doubt he would allow that to happen.
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OK this is getting confused and seriously out of hand.
Im just gonna sit down, ignore everything that is going on, and come back in like 10 days or so and see where we are at.
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On August 14 2011 10:04 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:01 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 09:57 Blitz Beat wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. If anyone from NASL can post the contract that the teams signed, that would be appreciated and would probably clear this whole mess up instantly. But until said contract or details are posted... I don't know if the contract bound the teams to participate in the NASL after qualifying. It might have just been a rules and code of conduct spiel for all I know or it could have said "If you sign this you name your first child Russell". Kinda have to reserve judgement when it comes to the whole contract debate. NASL stated somewhere, I think the TIG thread, a list of teams and the dates that they signed their Season 2 contracts. Dates don't mean much. Neither does the fact that the teams signed a contract. Its what the contract includes and details that is relevant. If the contract says "you can participate since you qualified", then its NASL's fault since they made participation optional. If the contract says "you must participate or be liable to any monetary damages and costs" then its the teams fault. Wording is important, especially since NASL put their whole argument in this one basket of "we have a contract". Doesn't mean anything if the contract is worthless.
Yeah I misread the question.
But, do you honestly think their contract simply states, "You can participate?"
I highly doubt that.I mean, at that point, what's the purpose of a contract?
I'm sure NASL's contract is like anyone else's contract, which states, "By signing this you are agreeing to participate under ____ rules/conditions."
I mean, we're not talking about kiddie stuff, we're talking about legal contracts, and legal contracts are always worded in a way that it BINDS two parties to something, lists the conditions, and lists the penalties.
Anything that doesn't have those 3 things can't be called a contract, because by definition, a contract has those things.
We can argue all possibilities, sure, but I think we need to take probabilities into account too. I mean otherwise, we can sit here and discuss how Russell is actually a robot and demand proof that he is human.
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On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money.
Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more.
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On August 14 2011 10:04 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:01 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 09:57 Blitz Beat wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. If anyone from NASL can post the contract that the teams signed, that would be appreciated and would probably clear this whole mess up instantly. But until said contract or details are posted... I don't know if the contract bound the teams to participate in the NASL after qualifying. It might have just been a rules and code of conduct spiel for all I know or it could have said "If you sign this you name your first child Russell". Kinda have to reserve judgement when it comes to the whole contract debate. NASL stated somewhere, I think the TIG thread, a list of teams and the dates that they signed their Season 2 contracts. Dates don't mean much. Neither does the fact that the teams signed a contract. Its what the contract includes and details that is relevant. If the contract says "you can participate since you qualified", then its NASL's fault since they made participation optional. If the contract says "you must participate or be liable to any monetary damages and costs" then its the teams fault. Wording is important, especially since NASL put their whole argument in this one basket of "we have a contract". Doesn't mean anything if the contract is worthless.
I think you're asking for a bit much. There aren't a whole lot of companies that would scan a copy of a signed contract and post it up for the world to see just to prove a point. There aren't even that many companies that would be willing to post the full language of their contracts on a forum like this for that purpose either. Barring some incredible level on incompetence from their legal department, I think it's pretty safe to say that the contract wouldn't say "If you sign this you name your first child Russell."
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On August 14 2011 10:09 Carbonthief wrote:
Puma: Not contracted to TSL, wants to join EG, Puma immoral person.
SC2Con/Group of Korean teams/Who the hell even knows anymore: Signs contract, makes unreasonable demands, has unreasonable demands met, breaches contract anyways.
And... they think that's ok? They think that's an ok thing to do? What the fuck?
Welcome to Korea!
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On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more.
White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2.
NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK.
They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more?
I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given.
I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it.
What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really.
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On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. <snip> I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really.
The Korean teams/players may not directly gain anything by not participating in NASL (which is why I'm sure many would like to if they could). Unfortunately, unless NASL can recuperate damage via a clause in their contract with the players, NASL will face losses.
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This situation is getting ridiculous, there is nothing but both parties pointing fingers and dodging blame. We need to find out what actually happened, what do the Korean teams have to say about this?
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TBH I just hope that sC and the MVP players can play. Who on MVP qualified?
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On August 14 2011 10:22 JSy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. <snip> I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. The Korean teams/players may not directly gain anything by not participating in NASL (which is why I'm sure many would like to if they could). Unfortunately, unless NASL can recuperate damage via a clause in their contract with the players, NASL will face losses.
Oh I agree. I guess I was trying to say that the Koreans' loss would be more of a self-inflicted wound, whereas NASL's losses are at the mercy of someone else.
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It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake.
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On August 14 2011 10:23 FairForever wrote:
TBH I just hope that sC and the MVP players can play. Who on MVP qualified?
I don't think any players from MVP qualified. So it looks like NASL has been contacting other Korean teams.
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On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake.
I agree with this. All the SC2Con teams unite in a decision to break contracts that they signed, but, it's not SC2Con? Then what is it then? And what is the SC2Con for?
Like what if all team liquid pros, managers, and moderators put together a post saying that they would not play in the NASL, but then later TL released a statement saying this was not a TL decision?
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On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake.
I greatly disagree. Things aren't going well for sc2 in Korea. I mean teams can't afford to pay the travel difference after getting a $1000 stipend. Also there are very limited opportunities in Korea. Quite frankly I see a lot of Korean players moving to foreign teams. You think that Rain, Puma, and others that have already made the move don't talk to their old teammates and tell them how they get to play in so many tournaments, get a salary and so on? Korea has the best players. The West has the money and wants the best players. Somethings gotta give.
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On August 14 2011 10:42 Carbonthief wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake. I agree with this. All the SC2Con teams unite in a decision to break contracts that they signed, but, it's not SC2Con? Then what is it then? And what is the SC2Con for? Like what if all team liquid pros, managers, and moderators put together a post saying that they would not play in the NASL, but then later TL released a statement saying this was not a TL decision?
It would be more like Hot_Bid making a post saying that TL hates horses then everyone else on TL saying that they love horses. Your analogy is quite opposite.
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On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really.
white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports.
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On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports.
Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though.
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On August 14 2011 10:45 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:42 Carbonthief wrote:On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake. I agree with this. All the SC2Con teams unite in a decision to break contracts that they signed, but, it's not SC2Con? Then what is it then? And what is the SC2Con for? Like what if all team liquid pros, managers, and moderators put together a post saying that they would not play in the NASL, but then later TL released a statement saying this was not a TL decision? It would be more like Hot_Bid making a post saying that TL hates horses then everyone else on TL saying that they love horses. Your analogy is quite opposite.
Ok so to extend your analogy, who is saying that they love horses they want to actually play in the NASL, and who is Hot_Bid not letting them?
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On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports.
Yeah, but he still paid for his ticket own his own.
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On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though.
Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently.
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On August 14 2011 10:51 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Yeah, but he still paid for his ticket own his own.
On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though.
he's been since late may. remember that red jacket he was wearing at NASL? Yeah that's Tt Esports.
On August 14 2011 10:51 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:
white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports.
Yeah, but he still paid for his ticket own his own.
how do you know this?
EDIT: Nvm I got a PM from Primadog who explained the situation
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On August 14 2011 10:51 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Yeah, but he still paid for his ticket own his own.
white-ra is financially stable. a 20 year old kid in korea living off his team isn't.
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seem's like s2con wants to have their cake and eat it too
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White-Ra=Jesus. He will turn our esports water into esports wine.
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On August 14 2011 10:50 Carbonthief wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:45 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:42 Carbonthief wrote:On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake. I agree with this. All the SC2Con teams unite in a decision to break contracts that they signed, but, it's not SC2Con? Then what is it then? And what is the SC2Con for? Like what if all team liquid pros, managers, and moderators put together a post saying that they would not play in the NASL, but then later TL released a statement saying this was not a TL decision? It would be more like Hot_Bid making a post saying that TL hates horses then everyone else on TL saying that they love horses. Your analogy is quite opposite. Ok so to extend your analogy, who is saying that they love horses they want to actually play in the NASL, and who is Hot_Bid not letting them?
I don't follow. I'm saying that the way you put it makes it seem like everyone in SC2Con got together and decided to not participate in the NASL when it seems like it was only the teams that were involved in the NASL that were making the decision. Why would a team that doesn't even have players in NASL even attend a meeting about the issue with NASL?
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On August 14 2011 10:44 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake. I greatly disagree. Things aren't going well for sc2 in Korea. I mean teams can't afford to pay the travel difference after getting a $1000 stipend. Also there are very limited opportunities in Korea. Quite frankly I see a lot of Korean players moving to foreign teams. You think that Rain, Puma, and others that have already made the move don't talk to their old teammates and tell them how they get to play in so many tournaments, get a salary and so on? Korea has the best players. The West has the money and wants the best players. Somethings gotta give.
Ultimately though Korea has all the best players and that is by far the hardest thing to replicate.
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On August 14 2011 11:00 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:50 Carbonthief wrote:On August 14 2011 10:45 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:42 Carbonthief wrote:On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake. I agree with this. All the SC2Con teams unite in a decision to break contracts that they signed, but, it's not SC2Con? Then what is it then? And what is the SC2Con for? Like what if all team liquid pros, managers, and moderators put together a post saying that they would not play in the NASL, but then later TL released a statement saying this was not a TL decision? It would be more like Hot_Bid making a post saying that TL hates horses then everyone else on TL saying that they love horses. Your analogy is quite opposite. Ok so to extend your analogy, who is saying that they love horses they want to actually play in the NASL, and who is Hot_Bid not letting them? I don't follow. I'm saying that the way you put it makes it seem like everyone in SC2Con got together and decided to not participate in the NASL when it seems like it was only the teams that were involved in the NASL that were making the decision. Why would a team that doesn't even have players in NASL even attend a meeting about the issue with NASL?
I don't know why, but I was under the impression that this is what occurred?
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On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
[quote]
It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same.
The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently.
The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend)
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On August 14 2011 10:42 Carbonthief wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake. I agree with this. All the SC2Con teams unite in a decision to break contracts that they signed, but, it's not SC2Con? Then what is it then? And what is the SC2Con for? Like what if all team liquid pros, managers, and moderators put together a post saying that they would not play in the NASL, but then later TL released a statement saying this was not a TL decision?
copy/paste from my reply
s2con members:
FXOKorea, IM, MVP, NSHoSeo, oGs, TSL, Prime, StarTale, ZeNEX
Korean teams withdrawing:
oGs, StarTale, WeMadeFox, TSL, Prime
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On August 14 2011 11:00 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:44 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake. I greatly disagree. Things aren't going well for sc2 in Korea. I mean teams can't afford to pay the travel difference after getting a $1000 stipend. Also there are very limited opportunities in Korea. Quite frankly I see a lot of Korean players moving to foreign teams. You think that Rain, Puma, and others that have already made the move don't talk to their old teammates and tell them how they get to play in so many tournaments, get a salary and so on? Korea has the best players. The West has the money and wants the best players. Somethings gotta give. Ultimately though Korea has all the best players and that is by far the hardest thing to replicate.
Money talks and players will walk. The Korean scene cannot survive without money, especially when they are competing with the foreign scene which does have money.
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On August 14 2011 11:03 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:42 Carbonthief wrote:On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake. I agree with this. All the SC2Con teams unite in a decision to break contracts that they signed, but, it's not SC2Con? Then what is it then? And what is the SC2Con for? Like what if all team liquid pros, managers, and moderators put together a post saying that they would not play in the NASL, but then later TL released a statement saying this was not a TL decision? copy/paste from my reply s2con members: FXOKorea, IM, MVP, NSHoSeo, oGs, TSL, Prime, StarTale, ZeNEX Korean teams withdrawing: oGs, StarTale, WeMadeFox, TSL, Prime
Ok so assuming that none of the other teams influenced the decision, it makes sense now.
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On August 14 2011 11:03 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:42 Carbonthief wrote:On August 14 2011 10:38 slyboogie wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Starcraft 2 business in Korea is not done with total transparency. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or a good thing, it just is what it is. I'm fine with chalking this up to culture and style but it does tend to irk the part of me that wants to know all information. There's no reason for Korea to change, as much as I'd like it to, but making this kind of statement is odd.
I mean, who makes up the S2CON? Is it a separate entity from the teams? Or is it comprised of managers of the teams? Furthermore is it really THAT perplexing that NASL.tv referred to S2CON - our understanding of it is basically a unified front of Korean teams. If NASL.tv misunderstood, it doesn't seem like a huge mistake. I agree with this. All the SC2Con teams unite in a decision to break contracts that they signed, but, it's not SC2Con? Then what is it then? And what is the SC2Con for? Like what if all team liquid pros, managers, and moderators put together a post saying that they would not play in the NASL, but then later TL released a statement saying this was not a TL decision? copy/paste from my reply s2con members: FXOKorea, IM, MVP, NSHoSeo, oGs, TSL, Prime, StarTale, ZeNEX Korean teams withdrawing: oGs, StarTale, WeMadeFox, TSL, Prime
Ummmm...
FXOKorea: That's what NASL is saying - that FXOKorea is currently fighting with SC2Con.
IM: Doesn't have any players to withdraw
MVP: Doesn't have any players to withdraw, though if NASL is to be believed, MVP seems to have been offered some of the spots that other teams withdrew, and has interest in taking them, albeit cannot without SC2Con's consent.
ZeNEX: Doesn't have any players to withdraw
NSHoSeo: Doesn't have any players to withdraw
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So from what I understand, there are a few teams wanting to play in NASL, but because most of the korean teams don't want to, they're not letting the other teams? Im confused, can we get a better clarification please?
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On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:
[quote]
I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend)
So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances?
The withdrawing teams are supposedly making their official statements about this matter so we will know for sure why they are not participating and the details of it.
On August 14 2011 11:08 AxelTVx wrote:
So from what I understand, there are a few teams wanting to play in NASL, but because most of the korean teams don't want to, they're not letting the other teams? Im confused, can we get a better clarification please?
It would be best to see those issues as separate conflicts. A lof of people here are clumping them together but as of right now, there are no official statements from anybody concerning SC2Con not allowing some teams to participate even if they wanted to.
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On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
[quote]
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands.
That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word.
edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances?
You're missing the point. He's saying that if NASL isnt helping other players/teams (like White-Ra) get to finals, why should they have to help the Koreans. Times are tough for everybody. The world economy isn't exactly in the greatest shape right now.
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On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports.
He was in Duckload at the time, who didn't pay for his plane ticket. It was out of pocket.
[EDIT] My point is, many players have it worse when it comes to NASL, but are not complaining or demanding nearly as much.
The Koreans have received so much special treatment (asked about which hours they prefer playing, allowed to play on K server), that the argument that, "NASL is a difficult tournament for them to play in" doesn't hold much weight.
If 30+ players can do it on worse conditions, then they should be able to do it, if they want to be considered professional players.
And if the Korean teams are so poor, they are not going to get any money sitting around. True story. Even $200 out of pocket is reimbursed through the exposure to Western sponsors that NASL provides, especially when there are no Korean sponsors.
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On August 14 2011 11:14 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:
[quote]
True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances? You're missing the point. He's saying that if NASL isnt helping other players/teams (like White-Ra) get to finals, why should they have to help the Koreans. Times are tough for everybody. The world economy isn't exactly in the greatest shape right now.
Times are tough. Koreans don't have as much money as foreigners and that is fact. Even with NASL's financial aid, Koreans still have declined to play.
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On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
[quote]
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands.
That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word.
edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances? The withdrawing teams are supposedly making their official statements about this matter so we will know for sure why they are not participating and the details of it. Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:08 AxelTVx wrote:
So from what I understand, there are a few teams wanting to play in NASL, but because most of the korean teams don't want to, they're not letting the other teams? Im confused, can we get a better clarification please? It would be best to see those issues as separate conflicts. A lof of people here are clumping them together but as of right now, there are no official statements from anybody concerning SC2Con not allowing some teams to participate even if they wanted to.
They never should have signed the contracts. Why sign them and 10 days later say the terms don't work for them? You say that before you sign the contract. If the terms aren't satisfying, dont agree to them. I'm fine with them not finding them satisfying, just don't agree to them and then 15 days later pull out from the tournament and screw NASL over. They acted incredibly unprofessional.
And yes they need to go out and get money. Cause if they don't they will lose their players and the scene will die. I'm not saying its easy, but it needs to be done.
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On August 14 2011 11:18 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:14 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money.
Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances? You're missing the point. He's saying that if NASL isnt helping other players/teams (like White-Ra) get to finals, why should they have to help the Koreans. Times are tough for everybody. The world economy isn't exactly in the greatest shape right now. Times are tough. Koreans don't have as much money as foreigners and that is fact. Even with NASL's financial aid, Koreans still have declined to play.
After they agreed to play and pulled out as production had already started.
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On August 14 2011 11:18 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:14 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money.
Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances? You're missing the point. He's saying that if NASL isnt helping other players/teams (like White-Ra) get to finals, why should they have to help the Koreans. Times are tough for everybody. The world economy isn't exactly in the greatest shape right now. Times are tough. Koreans don't have as much money as foreigners and that is fact. Even with NASL's financial aid, Koreans still have declined to play.
I guess that's my biggest problem with this decision, whether the teams' or SC2Con's. It's so short sighted.
If the financial situation is THAT dire in Korea, the course of action they have chosen to take will do 0% to make it better.
If they were thinking long-term, they would realize that some money spent now (made minor by NASL's help) is worth it, because in the long-term, the exposure they get will help them get Western sponsors, which they need to survive.
Look at PuMa. He was fairly unknown until NASL. He didn't even play in the entire season, yet now, he's almost a household name in SC2.
If you are a good team manager, you look at things like that and see a big fat OPPORTUNITY written all over it. That's something you can sell to sponsors.
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Sounds like semantics to me. It may not have been an official S2CON decision, but from what we've been told they certainly have played a major role in this whole saga.
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On August 14 2011 10:52 ReaperX wrote:
SC2Con...
Haha.. I see what you did there wp 
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On August 14 2011 11:22 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:18 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:14 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:
[quote]
Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances? You're missing the point. He's saying that if NASL isnt helping other players/teams (like White-Ra) get to finals, why should they have to help the Koreans. Times are tough for everybody. The world economy isn't exactly in the greatest shape right now. Times are tough. Koreans don't have as much money as foreigners and that is fact. Even with NASL's financial aid, Koreans still have declined to play. I guess that's my biggest problem with this decision, whether the teams' or SC2Con's. It's so short sighted.
If the financial situation is THAT dire in Korea, the course of action they have chosen to take will do 0% to make it better. If they were thinking long-term, they would realize that some money spent now (made minor by NASL's help) is worth it, because in the long-term, the exposure they get will help them get Western sponsors, which they need to survive. Look at PuMa. He was fairly unknown until NASL. He didn't even play in the entire season, yet now, he's almost a household name in SC2. If you are a good team manager, you look at things like that and see a big fat OPPORTUNITY written all over it. That's something you can sell to sponsors.
I agree. Hate to sound clicheish but you have to spend money to make money. Sometimes you have to take risks and seize an opportunity even if it isn't a 100% guaranteed. For example, imagine if MVP team does end up sending some players and one of them wins the whole thing. Can you imagine the publicity that they and he would get, especially after all this drama. Sponsors would be tripping each other up to be the 1st to sign them.
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I somewhat disagree in this specific case. Some teams are in a pretty bad spot and can't even afford the security deposit. TSL for one would have had to pay a hefty $1,500 and we all know about their situation. Let me ask you this, would you rather the teams pull out before the actual season gets going with 3 weeks to find replacements or pull out at the Grand Finals because they can't afford it? The ideal situation is of course to pull out before contracts were signed, but unfortunately that time has passed. Do you want the Koreans to continue to knock out players for the Grand Finals they won't be able to attend?
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This is the second set of drama in the past week regarding legality, contracts and what not. The only common denominator is SC2Con. Not to mention they were way wrong the last time...
I will reserve judgement till I see a riposte from NASL, but something is very fishy here...
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On August 14 2011 11:31 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 11:18 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:14 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:
[quote]
White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2.
NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK.
They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more?
I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given.
I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it.
What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really.
white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances? You're missing the point. He's saying that if NASL isnt helping other players/teams (like White-Ra) get to finals, why should they have to help the Koreans. Times are tough for everybody. The world economy isn't exactly in the greatest shape right now. Times are tough. Koreans don't have as much money as foreigners and that is fact. Even with NASL's financial aid, Koreans still have declined to play. I guess that's my biggest problem with this decision, whether the teams' or SC2Con's. It's so short sighted.
If the financial situation is THAT dire in Korea, the course of action they have chosen to take will do 0% to make it better. If they were thinking long-term, they would realize that some money spent now (made minor by NASL's help) is worth it, because in the long-term, the exposure they get will help them get Western sponsors, which they need to survive. Look at PuMa. He was fairly unknown until NASL. He didn't even play in the entire season, yet now, he's almost a household name in SC2. If you are a good team manager, you look at things like that and see a big fat OPPORTUNITY written all over it. That's something you can sell to sponsors. I agree. Hate to sound clicheish but you have to spend money to make money. Sometimes you have to take risks and seize an opportunity even if it isn't a 100% guaranteed. For example, imagine if MVP team does end up sending some players and one of them wins the whole thing. Can you imagine the publicity that they and he would get, especially after all this drama. Sponsors would be tripping each other up to be the 1st to sign them.
Exactly. Without NASL, I don't think PuMa could score many sponsors. With NASL? I'd be surprised if he wasn't already in negotiations with some.
Like I said, a good business manager thinks long-term and realizes the importance of these tournaments, and knows how they can be used. It's like alchemy. You take simple participation in a tournament and you turn it into gold.
I'm concerned because it doesn't seem like Korean management does this. If they don't, I can guarantee that players will continue going to foreign teams.
And I wouldn't even blame them. This is a career. The goal is to make money. If you're not making it, what's the point?
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On August 14 2011 11:31 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 11:18 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:14 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:
[quote]
White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2.
NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK.
They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more?
I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given.
I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it.
What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really.
white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances? You're missing the point. He's saying that if NASL isnt helping other players/teams (like White-Ra) get to finals, why should they have to help the Koreans. Times are tough for everybody. The world economy isn't exactly in the greatest shape right now. Times are tough. Koreans don't have as much money as foreigners and that is fact. Even with NASL's financial aid, Koreans still have declined to play. I guess that's my biggest problem with this decision, whether the teams' or SC2Con's. It's so short sighted.
If the financial situation is THAT dire in Korea, the course of action they have chosen to take will do 0% to make it better. If they were thinking long-term, they would realize that some money spent now (made minor by NASL's help) is worth it, because in the long-term, the exposure they get will help them get Western sponsors, which they need to survive. Look at PuMa. He was fairly unknown until NASL. He didn't even play in the entire season, yet now, he's almost a household name in SC2. If you are a good team manager, you look at things like that and see a big fat OPPORTUNITY written all over it. That's something you can sell to sponsors. I agree. Hate to sound clicheish but you have to spend money to make money. Sometimes you have to take risks and seize an opportunity even if it isn't a 100% guaranteed. For example, imagine if MVP team does end up sending some players and one of them wins the whole thing. Can you imagine the publicity that they and he would get, especially after all this drama. Sponsors would be tripping each other up to be the 1st to sign them.
Unfortuneatly, I doubt korean sponsors would be tripping each other up to be the first to sign them because they win an western tournament.
But, on the matter of spending money to make money; they just need to win 1 round in the finals to have made money from it. And if they win the whole thing, which is more likely then unlikely tbh, then they'd really see a return of their investment.
Maybe they'd even get to send over several players. Even more prizemoney then.
It is shortsighted, but I'm sure they realize it as well. Which must mean that the economical situation amongst the korean teams are very dire atm.
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On August 14 2011 09:38 Carbonthief wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! I want to say right now, that I fully support NASL and NASL's efforts, and even though tuition hikes have dictated that I cannot afford a season ticket this time, I will still continue to watch the stream and fully support NASL and NA e-sports. I don't know what the hell is going on but I have lost respect for every Korean team involved in this situation as well as the SC2Con. This entire situation is absurd. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior. They're breaking contract plain and simple, and instead of providing a timely professional simple clean cut explanation, we get convoluted bullshit and passing the buck. So great is the confusion, that noone even knows what the hell the confusion is about, or who is confused. Could, maybe, possibly, someone give NASL a reasonable explanation, a pointed statement of some kind, instead of beating around the bush?
Youve lost respect for korean teams because they chose not to play in a league, simply because they can not afford it?
That seems pretty shortsighted of you.
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On August 14 2011 11:34 xBillehx wrote:
I somewhat disagree in this specific case. Some teams are in a pretty bad spot and can't even afford the security deposit. TSL for one would have had to pay a hefty $1,500 and we all know about their situation. Let me ask you this, would you rather the teams pull out before the actual season gets going with 3 weeks to find replacements or pull out at the Grand Finals because they can't afford it? The ideal situation is of course to pull out before contracts were signed, but unfortunately that time has passed. Do you want the Koreans to continue to knock out players for the Grand Finals they won't be able to attend?
Unfortunately they did pull out after the actual season had started. NASL had already filmed 2 days worth of matches. And again, if they couldn't afford the deposit, the travel expenses, etc. they knew that BEFORE they signed the contracts. Its not like they signed the contracts thinking they had the money and then 15 days laters viola their piggy bank is empty.
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On August 14 2011 11:40 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:38 Carbonthief wrote:On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! I want to say right now, that I fully support NASL and NASL's efforts, and even though tuition hikes have dictated that I cannot afford a season ticket this time, I will still continue to watch the stream and fully support NASL and NA e-sports. I don't know what the hell is going on but I have lost respect for every Korean team involved in this situation as well as the SC2Con. This entire situation is absurd. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior. They're breaking contract plain and simple, and instead of providing a timely professional simple clean cut explanation, we get convoluted bullshit and passing the buck. So great is the confusion, that noone even knows what the hell the confusion is about, or who is confused. Could, maybe, possibly, someone give NASL a reasonable explanation, a pointed statement of some kind, instead of beating around the bush? Youve lost respect for korean teams because they chose not to play in a league, simply because they can not afford it? That seems pretty shortsighted of you.
Oh don't be so selective like that. He is obviously referring to the way that SC2Con went about the situation and using that as deserving of blame, not that Koreans are poor.
And none of us know what they can or can't afford. But even if true, there were much better ways of dealing with this, such as notifying NASL in a timly manner and not breaching contracts, sending only a few players that they CAN afford, etc etc.
Then combine that with SC2Con not letting FXO and MVP participate, and issuing a statement saying they're not involved when they are?
Yeah, that kind of stuff does make a lot of people lose respect.
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On August 14 2011 09:47 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:45 Defacer wrote:
FXOBoss or anyone else,
What are the benefits of dealing with SC2Con, exactly? And what do they actually do as a governing organization?
Do they have a board of governors?
A charter of player's rights?
Do they offer health insurance?
Are they financially liable in anyway?
I'm not being facetious. Most union's or independent organizations actually do something or have so kind of mission or agenda. What is theirs?
And finally the correct question has been asked! Answer: + Show Spoiler +They read the rules to the coaches before GTSL matches
sc2con does offer courtesy training for pro gamers, also arrange some meetings, football games etc.
it's kinda like player's association.
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I'm not sure if it's people's nature to distrust or be paranoid but I'm not sure why people have so much confusion over what's happening.
Korean teams with players in NASL sign a contract.
Later, they feel they will need money to send their players to the Grand Finals.
NASL and korean teams discuss terms but cannot come to an agreement.
Korean teams withdraw players from NASL.
NASL makes statement that the koreans will not be playing in the NASL and that the decision was made by SC2Con.
SC2Con officially state that they have no involvement in the teams' decisions and that SC2Con itself was never consulted by the NASL either.
NASL admits that they assumed that the committee of teams was SC2Con (SC2Con denies this).
There is still issue of SC2Con supposedly denying FXO and MVP from participating in the NASL but there are no official statements about this anywhere as far as I know.
As far as I know these are the facts of the the situation. The drama seems to be coming from the discussion of Korean's withdraw after they've signed a contract and also if SC2Con is actively trying to deny koreans participation in NASL (which makes no sense at all because we don't know any details yet and whether if that statement is accurate).
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I imagine all will be clear when the Korean teams release their statements, as I'm sure they are bound to do any day now...
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On August 14 2011 11:36 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:31 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 11:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 11:18 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:14 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 11:09 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:54 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:
[quote]
white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports.
Now he is, I believe at that time he wasn't, not sure though. Just because white-ra can afford to come doesn't mean that everyone else in korea should be able to. The situations are quite different. White-ra was sponsored by duckload and thermal take during the duration of NASL. a korean gamer is basically sponsored by his team. I think most teams are given a set amount of money from the sponsors in the korean scene since most of the costs are cost of living. Foreign scene wasn't considered as much just up until recently. The point is that he didn't go to NASL and say hey you need to pay for me to come over or I'm not coming over after committing to come over. His expenses were just as much as the Koreans, but still made it. Korean teams not having money shouldn't be NASL's problem. Its their problem that they need to fix, not ask every tournament they play in to pay for everything. Especially when signing a contract stating you agree to the terms (such as the travel stipend) So the koreans just need to go and get some more money...? The teams can't afford to send their players or it's not a worthwhile investment for them to send out their players. They ask NASL to help pay so that they can send their players. The terms weren't satisfying for the teams so they backed off even if it was after they signed the contracts. Why would they want to stick around to play in a long term tourament when they think that they won't even be able to send their player to the grand finals because of finances? You're missing the point. He's saying that if NASL isnt helping other players/teams (like White-Ra) get to finals, why should they have to help the Koreans. Times are tough for everybody. The world economy isn't exactly in the greatest shape right now. Times are tough. Koreans don't have as much money as foreigners and that is fact. Even with NASL's financial aid, Koreans still have declined to play. I guess that's my biggest problem with this decision, whether the teams' or SC2Con's. It's so short sighted.
If the financial situation is THAT dire in Korea, the course of action they have chosen to take will do 0% to make it better. If they were thinking long-term, they would realize that some money spent now (made minor by NASL's help) is worth it, because in the long-term, the exposure they get will help them get Western sponsors, which they need to survive. Look at PuMa. He was fairly unknown until NASL. He didn't even play in the entire season, yet now, he's almost a household name in SC2. If you are a good team manager, you look at things like that and see a big fat OPPORTUNITY written all over it. That's something you can sell to sponsors. I agree. Hate to sound clicheish but you have to spend money to make money. Sometimes you have to take risks and seize an opportunity even if it isn't a 100% guaranteed. For example, imagine if MVP team does end up sending some players and one of them wins the whole thing. Can you imagine the publicity that they and he would get, especially after all this drama. Sponsors would be tripping each other up to be the 1st to sign them. Exactly. Without NASL, I don't think PuMa could score many sponsors. With NASL? I'd be surprised if he wasn't already in negotiations with some. Like I said, a good business manager thinks long-term and realizes the importance of these tournaments, and knows how they can be used. It's like alchemy. You take simple participation in a tournament and you turn it into gold. I'm concerned because it doesn't seem like Korean management does this. If they don't, I can guarantee that players will continue going to foreign teams. And I wouldn't even blame them. This is a career. The goal is to make money. If you're not making it, what's the point?
actually if you look at how the korean sc2 progaming scene is run, i highly doubt the teams have good business managers.
i mean look at how most players had no formal contracts with the teams, and you look at how they tried to negotiate with the NASL. i dont think they really weighed the long term possibilities/consequences of this before making their decision
from what i see most korean teams are just a bunch of players grouped together with no proper organizational structure (in the business sense of the term). I mean the only administrative guy on the team seems to be the team manager...
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On August 14 2011 11:51 nitdkim wrote:
I'm not sure if it's people's nature to distrust or be paranoid but I'm not sure why people have so much confusion over what's happening.
Korean teams with players in NASL sign a contract.
Later, they feel they will need money to send their players to the Grand Finals.
NASL and korean teams discuss terms but cannot come to an agreement.
Korean teams withdraw players from NASL.
NASL makes statement that the koreans will not be playing in the NASL and that the decision was made by SC2Con.
SC2Con officially state that they have no involvement in the teams' decisions and that SC2Con itself was never consulted by the NASL either.
NASL admits that they assumed that the committee of teams was SC2Con (SC2Con denies this).
There is still issue of SC2Con supposedly denying FXO and MVP from participating in the NASL but there are no official statements about this anywhere as far as I know.
As far as I know these are the facts of the the situation. The drama seems to be coming from the discussion of Korean's withdraw after they've signed a contract and also if SC2Con is actively trying to deny koreans participation in NASL (which makes no sense at all because we don't know any details yet and whether if that statement is accurate).
There is confusion because of what you say in your last paragraph. Not because of the facts. Most the people know what the facts are. Don't you find it odd that sc2con is trying to prevent teams from participating in NASL even though they say they aren't involved in this? And don't you agree that breaking a contract is bad?
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On August 14 2011 11:55 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:51 nitdkim wrote:
I'm not sure if it's people's nature to distrust or be paranoid but I'm not sure why people have so much confusion over what's happening.
Korean teams with players in NASL sign a contract.
Later, they feel they will need money to send their players to the Grand Finals.
NASL and korean teams discuss terms but cannot come to an agreement.
Korean teams withdraw players from NASL.
NASL makes statement that the koreans will not be playing in the NASL and that the decision was made by SC2Con.
SC2Con officially state that they have no involvement in the teams' decisions and that SC2Con itself was never consulted by the NASL either.
NASL admits that they assumed that the committee of teams was SC2Con (SC2Con denies this).
There is still issue of SC2Con supposedly denying FXO and MVP from participating in the NASL but there are no official statements about this anywhere as far as I know.
As far as I know these are the facts of the the situation. The drama seems to be coming from the discussion of Korean's withdraw after they've signed a contract and also if SC2Con is actively trying to deny koreans participation in NASL (which makes no sense at all because we don't know any details yet and whether if that statement is accurate). There is confusion because of what you say in your last paragraph. Not because of the facts. Most the people know what the facts are. Don't you find it odd that sc2con is trying to prevent teams from participating in NASL even though they say they aren't involved in this? And don't you agree that breaking a contract is bad?
they said they aren't involved with the teams' decision to withdraw from NASL but they never said anything about FXO and MVP situation. They didn't deny that they are trying to prevent them from participating in NASL and we have almost zero information on that matter so i think it is premature to assume anything on that subject.
There has to be a legitimate reason why they wouldn't want those teams to participate in the NASL. If SC2Con has come to the conclusion that those team's participation in the NASL should be denied, then there must be a good reason for it. Whether people will agree to it or not will be another discussion when we know the reason.
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On August 14 2011 11:34 xBillehx wrote:
I somewhat disagree in this specific case. Some teams are in a pretty bad spot and can't even afford the security deposit. TSL for one would have had to pay a hefty $1,500 and we all know about their situation. Let me ask you this, would you rather the teams pull out before the actual season gets going with 3 weeks to find replacements or pull out at the Grand Finals because they can't afford it? The ideal situation is of course to pull out before contracts were signed, but unfortunately that time has passed. Do you want the Koreans to continue to knock out players for the Grand Finals they won't be able to attend?
Then you never sign the contract. Sure pulling out into day 2 of production isn't as bad as before the Grand Finals, but it doesn't mean it isn't bad. They really screwed over NASL as they now have to delay season 2 a bit while they fill out the league.
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On August 14 2011 11:58 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:55 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 11:51 nitdkim wrote:
I'm not sure if it's people's nature to distrust or be paranoid but I'm not sure why people have so much confusion over what's happening.
Korean teams with players in NASL sign a contract.
Later, they feel they will need money to send their players to the Grand Finals.
NASL and korean teams discuss terms but cannot come to an agreement.
Korean teams withdraw players from NASL.
NASL makes statement that the koreans will not be playing in the NASL and that the decision was made by SC2Con.
SC2Con officially state that they have no involvement in the teams' decisions and that SC2Con itself was never consulted by the NASL either.
NASL admits that they assumed that the committee of teams was SC2Con (SC2Con denies this).
There is still issue of SC2Con supposedly denying FXO and MVP from participating in the NASL but there are no official statements about this anywhere as far as I know.
As far as I know these are the facts of the the situation. The drama seems to be coming from the discussion of Korean's withdraw after they've signed a contract and also if SC2Con is actively trying to deny koreans participation in NASL (which makes no sense at all because we don't know any details yet and whether if that statement is accurate). There is confusion because of what you say in your last paragraph. Not because of the facts. Most the people know what the facts are. Don't you find it odd that sc2con is trying to prevent teams from participating in NASL even though they say they aren't involved in this? And don't you agree that breaking a contract is bad? they said they aren't involved with the teams' decision to withdraw from NASL but they never said anything about FXO and MVP situation. They didn't deny that they are trying to prevent them from participating in NASL and we have almost zero information on that matter so i think it is premature to assume anything on that subject.
By trying to prevent teams from joining, sc2con is involving themselves in this whole ordeal and I find it really hard to believe that they weren't involved from the start. Why join in now? There is an awful lot of shadiness going on with sc2con lately.
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On August 14 2011 11:40 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:38 Carbonthief wrote:On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! I want to say right now, that I fully support NASL and NASL's efforts, and even though tuition hikes have dictated that I cannot afford a season ticket this time, I will still continue to watch the stream and fully support NASL and NA e-sports. I don't know what the hell is going on but I have lost respect for every Korean team involved in this situation as well as the SC2Con. This entire situation is absurd. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior. They're breaking contract plain and simple, and instead of providing a timely professional simple clean cut explanation, we get convoluted bullshit and passing the buck. So great is the confusion, that noone even knows what the hell the confusion is about, or who is confused. Could, maybe, possibly, someone give NASL a reasonable explanation, a pointed statement of some kind, instead of beating around the bush? Youve lost respect for korean teams because they chose not to play in a league, simply because they can not afford it? That seems pretty shortsighted of you.
Or he lost respect for them because they signed contracts to play in the league and then broke those contracts when production had already began for season 2.
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On August 14 2011 11:58 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:34 xBillehx wrote:
I somewhat disagree in this specific case. Some teams are in a pretty bad spot and can't even afford the security deposit. TSL for one would have had to pay a hefty $1,500 and we all know about their situation. Let me ask you this, would you rather the teams pull out before the actual season gets going with 3 weeks to find replacements or pull out at the Grand Finals because they can't afford it? The ideal situation is of course to pull out before contracts were signed, but unfortunately that time has passed. Do you want the Koreans to continue to knock out players for the Grand Finals they won't be able to attend? Then you never sign the contract. Sure pulling out into day 2 of production isn't as bad as before the Grand Finals, but it doesn't mean it isn't bad. They really screwed over NASL as they now have to delay season 2 a bit while they fill out the league.
I agree breaking a contract is bad, but it's already happened so what do you want done for it? An apology? A ban? A lawsuit?
As for sc2con trying to prevent teams from participating I'd like further details on this before jumping to conclusions. Has FXOBoss/NASL even talked to sc2con to find out if they really are blocking it and if so why?
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On August 14 2011 11:58 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:55 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 11:51 nitdkim wrote:
I'm not sure if it's people's nature to distrust or be paranoid but I'm not sure why people have so much confusion over what's happening.
Korean teams with players in NASL sign a contract.
Later, they feel they will need money to send their players to the Grand Finals.
NASL and korean teams discuss terms but cannot come to an agreement.
Korean teams withdraw players from NASL.
NASL makes statement that the koreans will not be playing in the NASL and that the decision was made by SC2Con.
SC2Con officially state that they have no involvement in the teams' decisions and that SC2Con itself was never consulted by the NASL either.
NASL admits that they assumed that the committee of teams was SC2Con (SC2Con denies this).
There is still issue of SC2Con supposedly denying FXO and MVP from participating in the NASL but there are no official statements about this anywhere as far as I know.
As far as I know these are the facts of the the situation. The drama seems to be coming from the discussion of Korean's withdraw after they've signed a contract and also if SC2Con is actively trying to deny koreans participation in NASL (which makes no sense at all because we don't know any details yet and whether if that statement is accurate). There is confusion because of what you say in your last paragraph. Not because of the facts. Most the people know what the facts are. Don't you find it odd that sc2con is trying to prevent teams from participating in NASL even though they say they aren't involved in this? And don't you agree that breaking a contract is bad? they said they aren't involved with the teams' decision to withdraw from NASL but they never said anything about FXO and MVP situation. They didn't deny that they are trying to prevent them from participating in NASL and we have almost zero information on that matter so i think it is premature to assume anything on that subject.
On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible!
I think the bolded part qualifies as info regarding that situation. And yes considering how things have gone down so far I'm willing to believe NASL statements on this.
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5003 Posts
Honestly I would wait until the Korean Teams make a statement at this point before saying who is right or wrong D:
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On August 14 2011 12:04 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:58 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:55 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 11:51 nitdkim wrote:
I'm not sure if it's people's nature to distrust or be paranoid but I'm not sure why people have so much confusion over what's happening.
Korean teams with players in NASL sign a contract.
Later, they feel they will need money to send their players to the Grand Finals.
NASL and korean teams discuss terms but cannot come to an agreement.
Korean teams withdraw players from NASL.
NASL makes statement that the koreans will not be playing in the NASL and that the decision was made by SC2Con.
SC2Con officially state that they have no involvement in the teams' decisions and that SC2Con itself was never consulted by the NASL either.
NASL admits that they assumed that the committee of teams was SC2Con (SC2Con denies this).
There is still issue of SC2Con supposedly denying FXO and MVP from participating in the NASL but there are no official statements about this anywhere as far as I know.
As far as I know these are the facts of the the situation. The drama seems to be coming from the discussion of Korean's withdraw after they've signed a contract and also if SC2Con is actively trying to deny koreans participation in NASL (which makes no sense at all because we don't know any details yet and whether if that statement is accurate). There is confusion because of what you say in your last paragraph. Not because of the facts. Most the people know what the facts are. Don't you find it odd that sc2con is trying to prevent teams from participating in NASL even though they say they aren't involved in this? And don't you agree that breaking a contract is bad? they said they aren't involved with the teams' decision to withdraw from NASL but they never said anything about FXO and MVP situation. They didn't deny that they are trying to prevent them from participating in NASL and we have almost zero information on that matter so i think it is premature to assume anything on that subject. Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! I think the bolded part qualifies as info regarding that situation. And yes considering how things have gone down so far I'm willing to believe NASL statements on this.
by info, I mean the reasons why SC2Con is denying them and what the disagreements are between FXO/MVP and SC2Con
For all we know, MVP could've asked NASL for all the empty spots and SC2Con thought that doing that would be unfair to all the other teams that want to participate. I can see how that can be a legitimate situation but I'm just making up a scenario that would most likely make sense in my head.
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On August 14 2011 12:07 Milkis wrote:
Honestly I would wait until the Korean Teams make a statement at this point before saying who is right or wrong D:
Yes x_x I agree. I'm so reluctant to judge anything based off of one side because of all the crap recently.
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On August 14 2011 12:07 Milkis wrote:
Honestly I would wait until the Korean Teams make a statement at this point before saying who is right or wrong D:
And then we would wait until you or someone translates said statement before saying who is right or wrong.
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On August 14 2011 12:04 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:58 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 11:34 xBillehx wrote:
I somewhat disagree in this specific case. Some teams are in a pretty bad spot and can't even afford the security deposit. TSL for one would have had to pay a hefty $1,500 and we all know about their situation. Let me ask you this, would you rather the teams pull out before the actual season gets going with 3 weeks to find replacements or pull out at the Grand Finals because they can't afford it? The ideal situation is of course to pull out before contracts were signed, but unfortunately that time has passed. Do you want the Koreans to continue to knock out players for the Grand Finals they won't be able to attend? Then you never sign the contract. Sure pulling out into day 2 of production isn't as bad as before the Grand Finals, but it doesn't mean it isn't bad. They really screwed over NASL as they now have to delay season 2 a bit while they fill out the league. I agree breaking a contract is bad, but it's already happened so what do you want done for it? An apology? A ban? A lawsuit? As for sc2con trying to prevent teams from participating I'd like further details on this before jumping to conclusions. Has FXOBoss/NASL even talked to sc2con to find out if they really are blocking it and if so why?
Just because its already happened and we can't do anything about it doesn't mean can't be pissed about it. Quite frankly a statement needs to be made that you can't just go around breaking contracts. Maybe NASL should ban those team that broke the contracts preventing them from a future season.
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I wonder about some of the prokorean bias in some of our sources. It seems like there's one standard for NA and another for KR. Maybe I didn't take away the right message from the dispute. It just seems like we're not being consistent?
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There is a crazy speculation I've thought of. This isn't my guess on what's happening but I think it's an interesting one 
Due to recent events Puma, Rain, and a lot of korean progamers looking for a foreign team (Rainbow etc). SC2Con may be afraid that the NASL will strengthen the exodus of korean players as they get more attention from foreign teams.
Team MVP is very starved for a sponsor and their players seem very ambitious so they probably don't seem at risk to leave for a foreign them. They already have a good relationship with Complexity.
FXO is already a foreign owned team and they will probably have no fear over losing players.
Teams that are fearing over the exodus of korean players don't want FXO and MVP to go to NASL because they believe korean progamers will be inspired to go overseas and join foreign teams since there is a lot of money and experience to be had outside of korea and the competition is weaker.
This is a pretty much sensationalist theory on why SC2Con might be actively trying to deny FXO and MVP. It's crazy enough that people will actually believe it. It's crazy enough to be true, too.
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On August 14 2011 12:22 nitdkim wrote:There is a crazy speculation I've thought of. This isn't my guess on what's happening but I think it's an interesting one Due to recent events Puma, Rain, and a lot of korean progamers looking for a foreign team (Rainbow etc). SC2Con may be afraid that the NASL will strengthen the exodus of korean players as they get more attention from foreign teams. Team MVP is very starved for a sponsor and their players seem very ambitious so they probably don't seem at risk to leave for a foreign them. They already have a good relationship with Complexity. FXO is already a foreign owned team and they will probably have no fear over losing players. Teams that are fearing over the exodus of korean players don't want FXO and MVP to go to NASL because they believe korean progamers will be inspired to go overseas and join foreign teams since there is a lot of money and experience to be had outside of korea and the competition is weaker. This is a pretty much sensationalist theory on why SC2Con might be actively trying to deny FXO and MVP. It's crazy enough that people will actually believe it. It's crazy enough to be true, too.
What about oGs? They have a deal with SK and a very good relationship with TL and they pulled out.
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I don't understand this situation at all. Is there no journalism in ESPORTS ? I mean, how come no one at teamliquid or any other big news site has contacted slayers, ogs (should be easy, right ? just ask jinro to investigate or just ask around), how come no one with korean contacts has made an interview about this ?
This world is always about rumors, about non verified facts, about biased sources....this whole thing smells bad.
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On August 14 2011 12:24 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 12:22 nitdkim wrote:There is a crazy speculation I've thought of. This isn't my guess on what's happening but I think it's an interesting one Due to recent events Puma, Rain, and a lot of korean progamers looking for a foreign team (Rainbow etc). SC2Con may be afraid that the NASL will strengthen the exodus of korean players as they get more attention from foreign teams. Team MVP is very starved for a sponsor and their players seem very ambitious so they probably don't seem at risk to leave for a foreign them. They already have a good relationship with Complexity. FXO is already a foreign owned team and they will probably have no fear over losing players. Teams that are fearing over the exodus of korean players don't want FXO and MVP to go to NASL because they believe korean progamers will be inspired to go overseas and join foreign teams since there is a lot of money and experience to be had outside of korea and the competition is weaker. This is a pretty much sensationalist theory on why SC2Con might be actively trying to deny FXO and MVP. It's crazy enough that people will actually believe it. It's crazy enough to be true, too. What about oGs? They have a deal with SK and a very good relationship with TL and they pulled out.
oGs saw videos on youtube of incontrol making fun of kellymilkies then everyone on their team got offended how the NASL caster viewed asian people and vowed to never associate with NASL ever again.
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Koreans are not impressed with foreign players standing up Boxer and July, their legends and having them wake up all early for nothing.
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Anyway, this whole thing is so bad. The GSL injects a lot of money in the teams. Some teams have 5 code S players which means at least 10.000$ each month for the team. I really don't buy this money argument from korean teams (I know they don't have a lot of money, but not to the point of asking that all their expenses are paid by organizers when they go for a 50k first prize)
Imo what happened is that they said to themselves : "Hey, we dominate each foreign event we participate in, foreign fans want to see us play, let's try to milk foreign organizers for the maximum we can, they won't be able to say no"
Oops, nasl said no and now they're screwed, so some teams are trying to go by themselves.
This situation is disgusting.
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On August 14 2011 11:14 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. He was in Duckload at the time, who didn't pay for his plane ticket. It was out of pocket. [EDIT] My point is, many players have it worse when it comes to NASL, but are not complaining or demanding nearly as much. The Koreans have received so much special treatment (asked about which hours they prefer playing, allowed to play on K server), that the argument that, "NASL is a difficult tournament for them to play in" doesn't hold much weight. If 30+ players can do it on worse conditions, then they should be able to do it, if they want to be considered professional players. And if the Korean teams are so poor, they are not going to get any money sitting around. True story. Even $200 out of pocket is reimbursed through the exposure to Western sponsors that NASL provides, especially when there are no Korean sponsors.
actually koreans + sen have it the worst because of the time zone difference. there's not much to argue with that point. they're playing games at 4-6 am in the morning (this is made even worse by walkovers). also they haven't received any special treatment yet. all the hour changes/korean server stuff are for season 2.
you can't say "oh this is NORTH AMERICAN star league, deal with it". of course they are allowed to REQUEST for EVEN playing conditions. however whether they get it is up to the tournament organizers.
The point in contention here is how this situation was dealt by the koreans, eg: last minute dealings, poor communication, contract breach(?), disorganization, etc. If everything was done properly and legally, there is no reason why they should not be allowed to withdraw from the competition.
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I think people are seeing this a little too strictly from a "Everybody has to pay their way and that's fair" point of view.
Think of the scenario from a Korean player's point of view, you pay a security deposit and you play 10 weeks of solid games. You get into the final tournament only to be told that you have to pay to come to the tournament that you already qualified for. That doesn't seem odd to anyone?
I mean even if you can't afford to go to MLG providence at least you have the winnings from the other individual events. If you don't go to the NASL finals then you spent 10 weeks playing hard just to forfeit your chance at winning and your security deposit.
And as a final note NASL offered to pay the player's travel expenses and then take it out of their final winnings. That's not really paying anything, it's more like loaning the money.
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On August 14 2011 12:43 tlilleberg wrote:
I think people are seeing this a little too strictly from a "Everybody has to pay their way and that's fair" point of view.
Think of the scenario from a Korean player's point of view, you pay a security deposit and you play 10 weeks of solid games. You get into the final tournament only to be told that you have to pay to come to the tournament that you already qualified for. That doesn't seem odd to anyone?
I mean even if you can't afford to go to MLG providence at least you have the winnings from the other individual events. If you don't go to the NASL finals then you spent 10 weeks playing hard just to forfeit your chance at winning and your security deposit.
And as a final note NASL offered to pay the player's travel expenses and then take it out of their final winnings. That's not really paying anything, it's more like loaning the money.
Wait, you mean they would have to pay to go to the Finals, which are a LAN, like every other player that has to pay to go to LAN events? AND they knew from the start that they would have to pay to go to the Finals. It was stated from the beginning that they would. Teams have to pay to get to the GSL studios too.
And for your final note, NASL couldn't afford to give them any more money. Worst case scenario for Koreans is they break even for the weekend, although they should walk away with about $300. It is not NASL's fault that Korean teams don't have money.
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On August 14 2011 12:26 MrCon wrote:
I don't understand this situation at all. Is there no journalism in ESPORTS ? I mean, how come no one at teamliquid or any other big news site has contacted slayers, ogs (should be easy, right ? just ask jinro to investigate or just ask around), how come no one with korean contacts has made an interview about this ?
This world is always about rumors, about non verified facts, about biased sources....this whole thing smells bad.
And how would SlayerS, oGs, or any other Korean team be any less biased than the NASL or SC2Con?
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On August 14 2011 10:10 Medrea wrote:
OK this is getting confused and seriously out of hand.
Im just gonna sit down, ignore everything that is going on, and come back in like 10 days or so and see where we are at.
You are the smartest person in this thread 
In this case, wait & see are the most reasonable things to do.
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On August 14 2011 13:21 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 12:26 MrCon wrote:
I don't understand this situation at all. Is there no journalism in ESPORTS ? I mean, how come no one at teamliquid or any other big news site has contacted slayers, ogs (should be easy, right ? just ask jinro to investigate or just ask around), how come no one with korean contacts has made an interview about this ?
This world is always about rumors, about non verified facts, about biased sources....this whole thing smells bad. And how would SlayerS, oGs, or any other Korean team be any less biased than the NASL or SC2Con?
Well so far NASL has been able to back up what they said so...
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On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible!
Please don't use my team and our discussions with sc2con (not arguments) in your defence. Bottom line for me is if a player wants to play, they will play. I don't argue with organisations who do not control foreign tournaments.
Our discussions are with sC and choya mostly, and it has alot to do with whether they feel comfortable going against the trend from teams who are most willingly not participating in the NASL.
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My bad -- I misunderstood what I was told ! I'm going to wait until I hear some official statement or if a representative of the Korean teams wants to talk to me. Too many things are confusing even me right now.
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On August 14 2011 12:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 12:07 Milkis wrote:
Honestly I would wait until the Korean Teams make a statement at this point before saying who is right or wrong D: And then we would wait until you or someone translates said statement before saying who is right or wrong.
ouch, that one hurt
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sC taking part in NASL ought to give him back some motivation to perform better. Hope it all works out for him.
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On August 14 2011 13:26 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! Please don't use my team and our discussions with sc2con (not arguments) in your defence. Bottom line for me is if a player wants to play, they will play. I don't argue with organisations who do not control foreign tournaments. Our discussions are with sC and choya mostly, and it has alot to do with whether they feel comfortable going against the trend from teams who are most willingly not participating in the NASL.
Is there pressure from them to boycott NASL? This sounds like essentially a strike, whether it's formally organized by sc2con or not. If you're willing to pay to fly people to MLG, which has a much small prize pool (and doesn't offer free flights or anything, outside of the 4 GSL invites), I don't see any reason why NASL wouldn't be worth it to participate in.
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I understand that BW is mostly played in Korea almost exclusively but this is not the case for SC2. With all this drama recently, may we will see an internation body governing the SC2 scene instead.
I mean with the MLG exchange and most koreans participating in American and European events, this might be in the best interest of SC2 as an ESport.
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Hmmm NASL quoting FXO's discussions out of context. Too many things are still unknown at the moment. Hopefully SC2Cons and/or the teams involved would come out with an official statement.
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I honestly don't see why they don't close this and the other thread until the statement from the Korean teams is released. We've already seen the consequences of threads with only one side of the story.
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On August 14 2011 13:26 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! Please don't use my team and our discussions with sc2con (not arguments) in your defence. Bottom line for me is if a player wants to play, they will play. I don't argue with organisations who do not control foreign tournaments. Our discussions are with sC and choya mostly, and it has alot to do with whether they feel comfortable going against the trend from teams who are most willingly not participating in the NASL.
And yet again light is shown that nasl is improperly using information to both create drama and to make themselves seem righteous. Thank you for at least some light in this situation fxoboss. I still await the korean official response before I make judgment but this entire fiasco is one giant clusterf*ck of misinformation. A lot of which is coming from poor translations, biased reports, and netizen speculation. I hope this works out for both sides at the end and we can all just move on. This shit is literally killing esports.
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On August 14 2011 13:47 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:26 FXOpen wrote:On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! Please don't use my team and our discussions with sc2con (not arguments) in your defence. Bottom line for me is if a player wants to play, they will play. I don't argue with organisations who do not control foreign tournaments. Our discussions are with sC and choya mostly, and it has alot to do with whether they feel comfortable going against the trend from teams who are most willingly not participating in the NASL. And yet again light is shown that nasl is improperly using information to both create drama and to make themselves seem righteous. Thank you for at least some light in this situation fxoboss. I still await the korean official response before I make judgment but this entire fiasco is one giant clusterf*ck of misinformation. A lot of which is coming from poor translations, biased reports, and netizen speculation. I hope this works out for both sides at the end and we can all just move on. This shit is literally killing esports.
Hmmm...
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i don't understand why but NASL sounds a lot like EG statements. maybe i'm just imagining the, misdirecting tone and false air of genuineness though.
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Holy fucking batshit, why are people still getting uppity about Koreans not choosing to join a league? They don't want to spend money to go to the NASL, leave them the fuck alone. Especially the NASL team, stop putting a god damn negative spin on all your statements to make the Koreans look bad.
Jesus, what the fuck is wrong with some of you people.
Oh and, always wait for both sides of the story before jumping on the fucking bandwagon.
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Incontrol talking about this on Stimtv stream.
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On August 14 2011 13:49 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:47 Kazeyonoma wrote:On August 14 2011 13:26 FXOpen wrote:On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! Please don't use my team and our discussions with sc2con (not arguments) in your defence. Bottom line for me is if a player wants to play, they will play. I don't argue with organisations who do not control foreign tournaments. Our discussions are with sC and choya mostly, and it has alot to do with whether they feel comfortable going against the trend from teams who are most willingly not participating in the NASL. And yet again light is shown that nasl is improperly using information to both create drama and to make themselves seem righteous. Thank you for at least some light in this situation fxoboss. I still await the korean official response before I make judgment but this entire fiasco is one giant clusterf*ck of misinformation. A lot of which is coming from poor translations, biased reports, and netizen speculation. I hope this works out for both sides at the end and we can all just move on. This shit is literally killing esports. Hmmm...
LOL. I was thinking the same thing.
Xeris has a thing or two to learn about political correctness and just business-speak in general, but I don't think he meant anything malicious by it.
The original post implied that SC2Con was not involved in the decisions of the individual teams. And so he defended the NASL. While he may have misrepresented FXO's situation, it's quite clear that SC2Con is some kind of stakeholder in the Korean community, or else they wouldn't be consulted at all.
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On August 14 2011 13:55 youngminii wrote:
Holy fucking batshit, why are people still getting uppity about Koreans not choosing to join a league? They don't want to spend money to go to the NASL, leave them the fuck alone. Especially the NASL team, stop putting a god damn negative spin on all your statements to make the Koreans look bad.
Jesus, what the fuck is wrong with some of you people.
Oh and, always wait for both sides of the story before jumping on the fucking bandwagon.
they're not, they're getting uppity about signing a fucking contract agreeing to play in a league and them breaking that contract at the last minute after production had already started. This is completely different from just simply not playing in the NASL. Boxer chose not to play in s2, and noone has a problem with that. The problem is that they DID decide to play s2, signed a contract, and then broke it at the last minute, and have yet to come forward with any word on the reasons why. All anyone has gotten is secondhand statements, denials, and pointing fingers.
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I think its pretty obvious whats going on. There's a few korean players/teams that don't want to participate (for whatever reason) and they are peer pressuring the koreans that DO want to participate from participating. The koreans see it as a "you're with us or you're against us" thing.
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On August 14 2011 14:02 Carbonthief wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:55 youngminii wrote:
Holy fucking batshit, why are people still getting uppity about Koreans not choosing to join a league? They don't want to spend money to go to the NASL, leave them the fuck alone. Especially the NASL team, stop putting a god damn negative spin on all your statements to make the Koreans look bad.
Jesus, what the fuck is wrong with some of you people.
Oh and, always wait for both sides of the story before jumping on the fucking bandwagon. they're not, they're getting uppity about signing a fucking contract agreeing to play in a league and them breaking that contract at the last minute after production had already started. This is completely different from just simply not playing in the NASL. Boxer chose not to play in s2, and noone has a problem with that. The problem is that they DID decide to play s2, signed a contract, and then broke it at the last minute, and have yet to come forward with any word on the reasons why. All anyone has gotten is secondhand statements, denials, and pointing fingers.
Whats the difference between what the Koreans are doing right now and... lets say... Osi with the Giants, CJohnson with the Titans, or any other football player that holds out on their contract because they want to renegotiate terms?
Answer: None. Its something that is allowed unless the contract explicitly includes a penalty for this exact scenario. My guess is that the penalty is deductions from the 500 dollars security but oh wait... no deposit was made.
If the penalties are too light for the Koreans to care, if they want to hold out and re-negotiate, or if the contract itself wasn't binding, then too bad for NASL. Koreans have the leverage. NASL needs them more than they need NASL (it hurts both parties but cmon... NASL loses out on far more possible revenue and exposure than the invited Koreans who are already well known and famous).
Oh, and theres an episode of Lo3 where Scoots talks about contracts and he states along the lines of - if the guy is willing to break the contract and eat the penalty then so be it. thats what penalty clauses are for.
It happens all the time. Players get invited to something, they withdraw or decline on short notice. Tough luck. This is just NASL being bitter right now.
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On August 14 2011 13:26 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! Please don't use my team and our discussions with sc2con (not arguments) in your defence. Bottom line for me is if a player wants to play, they will play. I don't argue with organisations who do not control foreign tournaments. Our discussions are with sC and choya mostly, and it has alot to do with whether they feel comfortable going against the trend from teams who are most willingly not participating in the NASL.
Why would they have to feel comfortable going against the trend from the other teams? Are they afraid of repercussions if they do go? If they want to go, they should go, just like FXOpen said. It doesn't matter what the other teams are doing, unless there is pressuring going on from the other teams.
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The lack of information from Koreans on this is rather telling of the situation, its very likely a mix of incompetence and attempting to hide information. You don't just drop out of a league that puts up 100K in prize money that can be played online and makes a deal to pay a significant amount (if not all) travel expenses without other deeper reasons. Time will tell I suppose.
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On August 14 2011 14:18 OneWhoIsMany wrote:
The lack of information from Koreans on this is rather telling of the situation, its very likely a mix of incompetence and attempting to hide information. You don't just drop out of a league that puts up 100K in prize money that can be played online and makes a deal to pay a significant amount (if not all) travel expenses without other deeper reasons. Time will tell I suppose.
it's only been a few days and individual teams are preparing their own statements on the matter.
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On August 14 2011 14:02 Carbonthief wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:55 youngminii wrote:
Holy fucking batshit, why are people still getting uppity about Koreans not choosing to join a league? They don't want to spend money to go to the NASL, leave them the fuck alone. Especially the NASL team, stop putting a god damn negative spin on all your statements to make the Koreans look bad.
Jesus, what the fuck is wrong with some of you people.
Oh and, always wait for both sides of the story before jumping on the fucking bandwagon. they're not, they're getting uppity about signing a fucking contract agreeing to play in a league and them breaking that contract at the last minute after production had already started. This is completely different from just simply not playing in the NASL. Boxer chose not to play in s2, and noone has a problem with that. The problem is that they DID decide to play s2, signed a contract, and then broke it at the last minute, and have yet to come forward with any word on the reasons why. All anyone has gotten is secondhand statements, denials, and pointing fingers.
Ya, this is how i see it. From the information that is out there it is looking like the koreans are doing some pretty shady business dealings. But as it has been shown, before the whole story is out there i will withhold my judgment.
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I don't really see what's so wrong about the Korean teams pulling out of NASL. If I had to practice for GSL and GSTL, I wouldn't bother playing in a 2AM tournament when there are practice sessions everyday. They would also have to practice for outdated maps that GSL doesn't use. And the hassle of flying over to the US.
Unless I knew I had a high chance of winning a lot of money, if I were them I'd pull out too.
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On August 14 2011 14:52 IntoTheEmo wrote:
I don't really see what's so wrong about the Korean teams pulling out of NASL. If I had to practice for GSL and GSTL, I wouldn't bother playing in a 2AM tournament when there are practice sessions everyday. They would also have to practice for outdated maps that GSL doesn't use. And the hassle of flying over to the US.
Unless I knew I had a high chance of winning a lot of money, if I were them I'd pull out too.
You're missing the points mentioned many times in this thread and the original thread about the NASL situation. It isn't about the fact that they declined, it is moreso that they decided to pull out at the last moment and also that they provided no explanation for what had occurred.
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On August 14 2011 14:38 Quintum_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 14:02 Carbonthief wrote:On August 14 2011 13:55 youngminii wrote:
Holy fucking batshit, why are people still getting uppity about Koreans not choosing to join a league? They don't want to spend money to go to the NASL, leave them the fuck alone. Especially the NASL team, stop putting a god damn negative spin on all your statements to make the Koreans look bad.
Jesus, what the fuck is wrong with some of you people.
Oh and, always wait for both sides of the story before jumping on the fucking bandwagon. they're not, they're getting uppity about signing a fucking contract agreeing to play in a league and them breaking that contract at the last minute after production had already started. This is completely different from just simply not playing in the NASL. Boxer chose not to play in s2, and noone has a problem with that. The problem is that they DID decide to play s2, signed a contract, and then broke it at the last minute, and have yet to come forward with any word on the reasons why. All anyone has gotten is secondhand statements, denials, and pointing fingers. Ya, this is how i see it. From the information that is out there it is looking like the koreans are doing some pretty shady business dealings. But as it has been shown, before the whole story is out there i will withhold my judgment.
Wait for their side sure, but they should have LONG given their side, before signing the contract even, it's faaaaar too late to simply dismiss it with a "just wait for their side of the story." Here we are, past the time when NASL had already started production, and we still await their side of the fucking story.
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On August 14 2011 15:05 stormchaser wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 14:52 IntoTheEmo wrote:
I don't really see what's so wrong about the Korean teams pulling out of NASL. If I had to practice for GSL and GSTL, I wouldn't bother playing in a 2AM tournament when there are practice sessions everyday. They would also have to practice for outdated maps that GSL doesn't use. And the hassle of flying over to the US.
Unless I knew I had a high chance of winning a lot of money, if I were them I'd pull out too. You're missing the points mentioned many times in this thread and the original thread about the NASL situation. It isn't about the fact that they declined, it is moreso that they decided to pull out at the last moment and also that they provided no explanation for what had occurred.
Explaination was that NASL and the teams couldn't reach an agreement on travel expenses.
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On August 14 2011 15:33 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 15:05 stormchaser wrote:On August 14 2011 14:52 IntoTheEmo wrote:
I don't really see what's so wrong about the Korean teams pulling out of NASL. If I had to practice for GSL and GSTL, I wouldn't bother playing in a 2AM tournament when there are practice sessions everyday. They would also have to practice for outdated maps that GSL doesn't use. And the hassle of flying over to the US.
Unless I knew I had a high chance of winning a lot of money, if I were them I'd pull out too. You're missing the points mentioned many times in this thread and the original thread about the NASL situation. It isn't about the fact that they declined, it is moreso that they decided to pull out at the last moment and also that they provided no explanation for what had occurred. Explaination was that NASL and the teams couldn't reach an agreement on travel expenses.
no they had already signed an agreement beforehand. The fact that travel expenses became a problem qwas their fault.
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On August 14 2011 15:20 Carbonthief wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 14:38 Quintum_ wrote:On August 14 2011 14:02 Carbonthief wrote:On August 14 2011 13:55 youngminii wrote:
Holy fucking batshit, why are people still getting uppity about Koreans not choosing to join a league? They don't want to spend money to go to the NASL, leave them the fuck alone. Especially the NASL team, stop putting a god damn negative spin on all your statements to make the Koreans look bad.
Jesus, what the fuck is wrong with some of you people.
Oh and, always wait for both sides of the story before jumping on the fucking bandwagon. they're not, they're getting uppity about signing a fucking contract agreeing to play in a league and them breaking that contract at the last minute after production had already started. This is completely different from just simply not playing in the NASL. Boxer chose not to play in s2, and noone has a problem with that. The problem is that they DID decide to play s2, signed a contract, and then broke it at the last minute, and have yet to come forward with any word on the reasons why. All anyone has gotten is secondhand statements, denials, and pointing fingers. Ya, this is how i see it. From the information that is out there it is looking like the koreans are doing some pretty shady business dealings. But as it has been shown, before the whole story is out there i will withhold my judgment. Wait for their side sure, but they should have LONG given their side, before signing the contract even, it's faaaaar too late to simply dismiss it with a "just wait for their side of the story." Here we are, past the time when NASL had already started production, and we still await their side of the fucking story.
You are preaching to the choir man, i agree with you man. Barring something big like the NASL cheating the koreans out of prize money or something along those lines this is a total douchbag move by them. They where given even more favorable conditions on top of the contract they had already signed and still screwed the NASL over.
People are always saying the korea society is all about honor and what not so it just sounds so unlike them to do something like this. And like i said past events have shown that jumping to conclusions is never the smart thing to do.
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Like it has been said, I don't have a problem with them not participating, but the way they went about it and agreed to the terms, then wanted them to change and then pull out when production has started... its just very unprofessional.
I really don't see what they can say that will change my mind on that. I mean even if they have some amazing reason why they pulled out, why agree to join in the first place? They just botched how they handled this.
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On August 14 2011 16:22 jmbthirteen wrote:
Like it has been said, I don't have a problem with them not participating, but the way they went about it and agreed to the terms, then wanted them to change and then pull out when production has started... its just very unprofessional.
I really don't see what they can say that will change my mind on that. I mean even if they have some amazing reason why they pulled out, why agree to join in the first place? They just botched how they handled this.
Exactly, that has always been my main problem with the situation. If they handled it like Boxer did, the furor over it would have been a hell of a lot less.
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This reminds me of how the NFLPA decertified and then claimed to not to be a union anymore but continued to negotiate as if they were.
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I refuse to believe, if this is true, that every team gets their own say in the matter, but none of them agreed to come for 2 thousand dollars to play. And on top of that, how is it that they all demanded the same exact thing, and yet they all denied the last attempt from NASL at the most inconvenient time. This is assuming that what SC2con has said about teams having their own decisions holds true. This is really confusing, and if the information is true from NASL, which I can't really understand them badmouthing the same people that net them well over 50% of their profits, then it seems that SC2con is beating around the bush and are seemingly lying through their teeth at this point, and/or refusing to announce anything..
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On August 14 2011 16:44 Rickilicious wrote:
I refuse to believe, if this is true, that every team gets their own say in the matter, but none of them agreed to come for 2 thousand dollars to play. And on top of that, how is it that they all demanded the same exact thing, and yet they all denied the last attempt from NASL at the most inconvenient time. This is assuming that what SC2con has said about teams having their own decisions holds true. This is really confusing, and if the information is true from NASL, which I can't really understand them badmouthing the same people that net them well over 50% of their profits, then it seems that SC2con is beating around the bush and are seemingly lying through their teeth at this point..
Exactly.
Why would someone like MC, who placed second in NASL and has won tons of prize money the past year, have any financial reason not to participate in the NASL?
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On August 14 2011 16:44 Rickilicious wrote:
I refuse to believe, if this is true, that every team gets their own say in the matter, but none of them agreed to come for 2 thousand dollars to play. And on top of that, how is it that they all demanded the same exact thing, and yet they all denied the last attempt from NASL at the most inconvenient time. This is assuming that what SC2con has said about teams having their own decisions holds true. This is really confusing, and if the information is true from NASL, which I can't really understand them badmouthing the same people that net them well over 50% of their profits, then it seems that SC2con is beating around the bush and are seemingly lying through their teeth at this point, and/or refusing to announce anything..
Well the teams did discuss this together. It was a committee of the Korean teams in NASL and not sc2con that made the decision, supposedly. I think it was said somewhere that sc2con played an organizing role in this, but not a deciding role.
I think they view a united front as a stronger one and that if all the teams are together that NASL would be more inclined to give in to them.
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So much miscommunication, the korean teams really need to clean up the mess and make clear who is able to speak for them and who does not.
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On August 14 2011 08:46 Primadog wrote:
I think at this point we're all tired and wary of sc2con and their awfully poor attempts in mitigating blames. It's obvious that they are not the proper governing body for korean starcraft 2.
Indeed, no matter what is going on, a organization who claims to govern the sc2 teams in Korea should have a firm grip on what they say and what is said about them, meaning whenever they say something, they better make sure it is the truth and stick with it (e.g. TSL incidence) and whenever somebody says something else, there better be a quick and sharp responce clearing this matter up.
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I like how SC2CON denies everything when there's a public statement? I tell you what, keep posting whatever they say online. They seem a group of coward people who cannot stand behind their words and keep changing to look better to some.
Tired of them. Why do you need to create an organization like that to "protect yourself", when it ends up being a dictatorship over you? WHY?
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I don't believe SC2Con on this matter. After all, it is made up of a collection of teams and they made a collective decision together. If the teams were the ones making up individual decisions, I would've expected that at least some to participate.
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EPT
