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On August 14 2011 11:40 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:38 Carbonthief wrote:On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! I want to say right now, that I fully support NASL and NASL's efforts, and even though tuition hikes have dictated that I cannot afford a season ticket this time, I will still continue to watch the stream and fully support NASL and NA e-sports. I don't know what the hell is going on but I have lost respect for every Korean team involved in this situation as well as the SC2Con. This entire situation is absurd. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior. They're breaking contract plain and simple, and instead of providing a timely professional simple clean cut explanation, we get convoluted bullshit and passing the buck. So great is the confusion, that noone even knows what the hell the confusion is about, or who is confused. Could, maybe, possibly, someone give NASL a reasonable explanation, a pointed statement of some kind, instead of beating around the bush? Youve lost respect for korean teams because they chose not to play in a league, simply because they can not afford it? That seems pretty shortsighted of you.
Or he lost respect for them because they signed contracts to play in the league and then broke those contracts when production had already began for season 2.
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On August 14 2011 11:58 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:34 xBillehx wrote:
I somewhat disagree in this specific case. Some teams are in a pretty bad spot and can't even afford the security deposit. TSL for one would have had to pay a hefty $1,500 and we all know about their situation. Let me ask you this, would you rather the teams pull out before the actual season gets going with 3 weeks to find replacements or pull out at the Grand Finals because they can't afford it? The ideal situation is of course to pull out before contracts were signed, but unfortunately that time has passed. Do you want the Koreans to continue to knock out players for the Grand Finals they won't be able to attend? Then you never sign the contract. Sure pulling out into day 2 of production isn't as bad as before the Grand Finals, but it doesn't mean it isn't bad. They really screwed over NASL as they now have to delay season 2 a bit while they fill out the league.
I agree breaking a contract is bad, but it's already happened so what do you want done for it? An apology? A ban? A lawsuit?
As for sc2con trying to prevent teams from participating I'd like further details on this before jumping to conclusions. Has FXOBoss/NASL even talked to sc2con to find out if they really are blocking it and if so why?
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On August 14 2011 11:58 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:55 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 11:51 nitdkim wrote:
I'm not sure if it's people's nature to distrust or be paranoid but I'm not sure why people have so much confusion over what's happening.
Korean teams with players in NASL sign a contract.
Later, they feel they will need money to send their players to the Grand Finals.
NASL and korean teams discuss terms but cannot come to an agreement.
Korean teams withdraw players from NASL.
NASL makes statement that the koreans will not be playing in the NASL and that the decision was made by SC2Con.
SC2Con officially state that they have no involvement in the teams' decisions and that SC2Con itself was never consulted by the NASL either.
NASL admits that they assumed that the committee of teams was SC2Con (SC2Con denies this).
There is still issue of SC2Con supposedly denying FXO and MVP from participating in the NASL but there are no official statements about this anywhere as far as I know.
As far as I know these are the facts of the the situation. The drama seems to be coming from the discussion of Korean's withdraw after they've signed a contract and also if SC2Con is actively trying to deny koreans participation in NASL (which makes no sense at all because we don't know any details yet and whether if that statement is accurate). There is confusion because of what you say in your last paragraph. Not because of the facts. Most the people know what the facts are. Don't you find it odd that sc2con is trying to prevent teams from participating in NASL even though they say they aren't involved in this? And don't you agree that breaking a contract is bad? they said they aren't involved with the teams' decision to withdraw from NASL but they never said anything about FXO and MVP situation. They didn't deny that they are trying to prevent them from participating in NASL and we have almost zero information on that matter so i think it is premature to assume anything on that subject.
On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible!
I think the bolded part qualifies as info regarding that situation. And yes considering how things have gone down so far I'm willing to believe NASL statements on this.
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5003 Posts
Honestly I would wait until the Korean Teams make a statement at this point before saying who is right or wrong D:
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On August 14 2011 12:04 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:58 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 11:55 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 11:51 nitdkim wrote:
I'm not sure if it's people's nature to distrust or be paranoid but I'm not sure why people have so much confusion over what's happening.
Korean teams with players in NASL sign a contract.
Later, they feel they will need money to send their players to the Grand Finals.
NASL and korean teams discuss terms but cannot come to an agreement.
Korean teams withdraw players from NASL.
NASL makes statement that the koreans will not be playing in the NASL and that the decision was made by SC2Con.
SC2Con officially state that they have no involvement in the teams' decisions and that SC2Con itself was never consulted by the NASL either.
NASL admits that they assumed that the committee of teams was SC2Con (SC2Con denies this).
There is still issue of SC2Con supposedly denying FXO and MVP from participating in the NASL but there are no official statements about this anywhere as far as I know.
As far as I know these are the facts of the the situation. The drama seems to be coming from the discussion of Korean's withdraw after they've signed a contract and also if SC2Con is actively trying to deny koreans participation in NASL (which makes no sense at all because we don't know any details yet and whether if that statement is accurate). There is confusion because of what you say in your last paragraph. Not because of the facts. Most the people know what the facts are. Don't you find it odd that sc2con is trying to prevent teams from participating in NASL even though they say they aren't involved in this? And don't you agree that breaking a contract is bad? they said they aren't involved with the teams' decision to withdraw from NASL but they never said anything about FXO and MVP situation. They didn't deny that they are trying to prevent them from participating in NASL and we have almost zero information on that matter so i think it is premature to assume anything on that subject. Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:10 NASL.tv wrote:
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible! I think the bolded part qualifies as info regarding that situation. And yes considering how things have gone down so far I'm willing to believe NASL statements on this.
by info, I mean the reasons why SC2Con is denying them and what the disagreements are between FXO/MVP and SC2Con
For all we know, MVP could've asked NASL for all the empty spots and SC2Con thought that doing that would be unfair to all the other teams that want to participate. I can see how that can be a legitimate situation but I'm just making up a scenario that would most likely make sense in my head.
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On August 14 2011 12:07 Milkis wrote:
Honestly I would wait until the Korean Teams make a statement at this point before saying who is right or wrong D:
Yes x_x I agree. I'm so reluctant to judge anything based off of one side because of all the crap recently.
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On August 14 2011 12:07 Milkis wrote:
Honestly I would wait until the Korean Teams make a statement at this point before saying who is right or wrong D:
And then we would wait until you or someone translates said statement before saying who is right or wrong.
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On August 14 2011 12:04 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:58 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 11:34 xBillehx wrote:
I somewhat disagree in this specific case. Some teams are in a pretty bad spot and can't even afford the security deposit. TSL for one would have had to pay a hefty $1,500 and we all know about their situation. Let me ask you this, would you rather the teams pull out before the actual season gets going with 3 weeks to find replacements or pull out at the Grand Finals because they can't afford it? The ideal situation is of course to pull out before contracts were signed, but unfortunately that time has passed. Do you want the Koreans to continue to knock out players for the Grand Finals they won't be able to attend? Then you never sign the contract. Sure pulling out into day 2 of production isn't as bad as before the Grand Finals, but it doesn't mean it isn't bad. They really screwed over NASL as they now have to delay season 2 a bit while they fill out the league. I agree breaking a contract is bad, but it's already happened so what do you want done for it? An apology? A ban? A lawsuit? As for sc2con trying to prevent teams from participating I'd like further details on this before jumping to conclusions. Has FXOBoss/NASL even talked to sc2con to find out if they really are blocking it and if so why?
Just because its already happened and we can't do anything about it doesn't mean can't be pissed about it. Quite frankly a statement needs to be made that you can't just go around breaking contracts. Maybe NASL should ban those team that broke the contracts preventing them from a future season.
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United States11076 Posts
I wonder about some of the prokorean bias in some of our sources. It seems like there's one standard for NA and another for KR. Maybe I didn't take away the right message from the dispute. It just seems like we're not being consistent?
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There is a crazy speculation I've thought of. This isn't my guess on what's happening but I think it's an interesting one 
Due to recent events Puma, Rain, and a lot of korean progamers looking for a foreign team (Rainbow etc). SC2Con may be afraid that the NASL will strengthen the exodus of korean players as they get more attention from foreign teams.
Team MVP is very starved for a sponsor and their players seem very ambitious so they probably don't seem at risk to leave for a foreign them. They already have a good relationship with Complexity.
FXO is already a foreign owned team and they will probably have no fear over losing players.
Teams that are fearing over the exodus of korean players don't want FXO and MVP to go to NASL because they believe korean progamers will be inspired to go overseas and join foreign teams since there is a lot of money and experience to be had outside of korea and the competition is weaker.
This is a pretty much sensationalist theory on why SC2Con might be actively trying to deny FXO and MVP. It's crazy enough that people will actually believe it. It's crazy enough to be true, too.
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On August 14 2011 12:22 nitdkim wrote:There is a crazy speculation I've thought of. This isn't my guess on what's happening but I think it's an interesting one Due to recent events Puma, Rain, and a lot of korean progamers looking for a foreign team (Rainbow etc). SC2Con may be afraid that the NASL will strengthen the exodus of korean players as they get more attention from foreign teams. Team MVP is very starved for a sponsor and their players seem very ambitious so they probably don't seem at risk to leave for a foreign them. They already have a good relationship with Complexity. FXO is already a foreign owned team and they will probably have no fear over losing players. Teams that are fearing over the exodus of korean players don't want FXO and MVP to go to NASL because they believe korean progamers will be inspired to go overseas and join foreign teams since there is a lot of money and experience to be had outside of korea and the competition is weaker. This is a pretty much sensationalist theory on why SC2Con might be actively trying to deny FXO and MVP. It's crazy enough that people will actually believe it. It's crazy enough to be true, too.
What about oGs? They have a deal with SK and a very good relationship with TL and they pulled out.
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I don't understand this situation at all. Is there no journalism in ESPORTS ? I mean, how come no one at teamliquid or any other big news site has contacted slayers, ogs (should be easy, right ? just ask jinro to investigate or just ask around), how come no one with korean contacts has made an interview about this ?
This world is always about rumors, about non verified facts, about biased sources....this whole thing smells bad.
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On August 14 2011 12:24 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 12:22 nitdkim wrote:There is a crazy speculation I've thought of. This isn't my guess on what's happening but I think it's an interesting one Due to recent events Puma, Rain, and a lot of korean progamers looking for a foreign team (Rainbow etc). SC2Con may be afraid that the NASL will strengthen the exodus of korean players as they get more attention from foreign teams. Team MVP is very starved for a sponsor and their players seem very ambitious so they probably don't seem at risk to leave for a foreign them. They already have a good relationship with Complexity. FXO is already a foreign owned team and they will probably have no fear over losing players. Teams that are fearing over the exodus of korean players don't want FXO and MVP to go to NASL because they believe korean progamers will be inspired to go overseas and join foreign teams since there is a lot of money and experience to be had outside of korea and the competition is weaker. This is a pretty much sensationalist theory on why SC2Con might be actively trying to deny FXO and MVP. It's crazy enough that people will actually believe it. It's crazy enough to be true, too. What about oGs? They have a deal with SK and a very good relationship with TL and they pulled out.
oGs saw videos on youtube of incontrol making fun of kellymilkies then everyone on their team got offended how the NASL caster viewed asian people and vowed to never associate with NASL ever again.
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Koreans are not impressed with foreign players standing up Boxer and July, their legends and having them wake up all early for nothing.
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Anyway, this whole thing is so bad. The GSL injects a lot of money in the teams. Some teams have 5 code S players which means at least 10.000$ each month for the team. I really don't buy this money argument from korean teams (I know they don't have a lot of money, but not to the point of asking that all their expenses are paid by organizers when they go for a 50k first prize)
Imo what happened is that they said to themselves : "Hey, we dominate each foreign event we participate in, foreign fans want to see us play, let's try to milk foreign organizers for the maximum we can, they won't be able to say no"
Oops, nasl said no and now they're screwed, so some teams are trying to go by themselves.
This situation is disgusting.
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On August 14 2011 11:14 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:46 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 14 2011 10:17 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 10:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:01 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:53 nitdkim wrote:On August 14 2011 09:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 14 2011 09:43 Redmark wrote:
If the NASL folks are saying that they have no idea what's going on in Korea I don't see why posters here act like they do. Just wait for more information to come out instead of pretending your opinions have any basis. It doesn't matter what they call themselves. NASL might not know if they're dealing with sc2con or just the teams... but it doesn't change what has already happened, which is what people are upset about. I don't think anybody gives 2 shit whether it was sc2con or the teams banding together to make this decision, the results are the same. The only thing that it changes is the idea of them blocking sc/mvp, but that's still a sidestory as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure where your sense of entitlement to something is coming from. If the koreans are to participate in the NASL, they have to go through countless games and stay up til 3-4 in the morning. Staying up that late may influence your performance in the GSTL and GSL (which are more important to them). They aren't even guaranteed to make it to the grand finals and to be at the finals you'd have to pay out of your own pocket initially and there aren't any guarantees that you'd make any money. NASL season is super long and the payoff for just being in Grand Finals (if you make it) aren't that great unless you get into Ro4 or something like that. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? They all agreed to these rules weeks ago. And then they waited until it had already started to begin making demands. That's not incredibly fucked up to you? We can all agree the Koreans have a harder time given the playtime, lag, etc... but they agreed to it only to then go back on their word. edit: i also have absolutely no idea where a sense of entitlement would come from my post. I don't think it means what you think it means. True, the part about them falling back on their words is very fucked up of them. But upon review, teams may have realized that NASL is not best for the team so they just decided not to participate. You can hate them for that but it's not a decision that's necessarily wrong. If they found the terms to be bad for the team and the players, even if it was late, I think I can understand why they'd go back on their word. Not that I support their action. It is wrong because they committed to NASL and then broke the contract. I don't get how they like the terms and then ten days later don't like the terms and demand change and money. And if its about the terms so much, how come they didn't ask for matches to be played at different times or on the KR server? They only asked for money. Money is the biggest issue. They can't really negotiate the time zones since NASL has a studio in NA and it's a live recording. The teams either can't afford to send out their players or they think that it's not worth the money to send out the players. Koreans wanted NASL to pay them more and NASL can't afford to pay more. White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket, got eliminated in the first round at the finals, and still is happily returning to Season 2. NASL has conceded a lot of things for the Koreans. They DID actually change the times, from what NASL said, for season 2, and are allowing Koreans to play on Korean server when it's KvK. They didn't do that for EU players, and yet, it is still the Koreans that are asking for more? I think NASL has done enough, tbh. I respect the Korean' teams decision to not participate (if it is even their decision...it certainly isn't FXO's or MVP's). But I think they should have stated it in a timely manner, not signed a contract, complain, and demand more money and special privileges than they were already given. I love watching Korean players play, but, I think it is time that Korean management learns that the rest of the world can't jump through hoops for them. In a way, they are mostly hurting themselves over this rather than getting anything out of it. What exactly do they get out of not being in NASL? Nothing really. white-ra is sponsored by Tt Esports. He was in Duckload at the time, who didn't pay for his plane ticket. It was out of pocket. [EDIT] My point is, many players have it worse when it comes to NASL, but are not complaining or demanding nearly as much. The Koreans have received so much special treatment (asked about which hours they prefer playing, allowed to play on K server), that the argument that, "NASL is a difficult tournament for them to play in" doesn't hold much weight. If 30+ players can do it on worse conditions, then they should be able to do it, if they want to be considered professional players. And if the Korean teams are so poor, they are not going to get any money sitting around. True story. Even $200 out of pocket is reimbursed through the exposure to Western sponsors that NASL provides, especially when there are no Korean sponsors.
actually koreans + sen have it the worst because of the time zone difference. there's not much to argue with that point. they're playing games at 4-6 am in the morning (this is made even worse by walkovers). also they haven't received any special treatment yet. all the hour changes/korean server stuff are for season 2.
you can't say "oh this is NORTH AMERICAN star league, deal with it". of course they are allowed to REQUEST for EVEN playing conditions. however whether they get it is up to the tournament organizers.
The point in contention here is how this situation was dealt by the koreans, eg: last minute dealings, poor communication, contract breach(?), disorganization, etc. If everything was done properly and legally, there is no reason why they should not be allowed to withdraw from the competition.
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I think people are seeing this a little too strictly from a "Everybody has to pay their way and that's fair" point of view.
Think of the scenario from a Korean player's point of view, you pay a security deposit and you play 10 weeks of solid games. You get into the final tournament only to be told that you have to pay to come to the tournament that you already qualified for. That doesn't seem odd to anyone?
I mean even if you can't afford to go to MLG providence at least you have the winnings from the other individual events. If you don't go to the NASL finals then you spent 10 weeks playing hard just to forfeit your chance at winning and your security deposit.
And as a final note NASL offered to pay the player's travel expenses and then take it out of their final winnings. That's not really paying anything, it's more like loaning the money.
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On August 14 2011 12:43 tlilleberg wrote:
I think people are seeing this a little too strictly from a "Everybody has to pay their way and that's fair" point of view.
Think of the scenario from a Korean player's point of view, you pay a security deposit and you play 10 weeks of solid games. You get into the final tournament only to be told that you have to pay to come to the tournament that you already qualified for. That doesn't seem odd to anyone?
I mean even if you can't afford to go to MLG providence at least you have the winnings from the other individual events. If you don't go to the NASL finals then you spent 10 weeks playing hard just to forfeit your chance at winning and your security deposit.
And as a final note NASL offered to pay the player's travel expenses and then take it out of their final winnings. That's not really paying anything, it's more like loaning the money.
Wait, you mean they would have to pay to go to the Finals, which are a LAN, like every other player that has to pay to go to LAN events? AND they knew from the start that they would have to pay to go to the Finals. It was stated from the beginning that they would. Teams have to pay to get to the GSL studios too.
And for your final note, NASL couldn't afford to give them any more money. Worst case scenario for Koreans is they break even for the weekend, although they should walk away with about $300. It is not NASL's fault that Korean teams don't have money.
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On August 14 2011 12:26 MrCon wrote:
I don't understand this situation at all. Is there no journalism in ESPORTS ? I mean, how come no one at teamliquid or any other big news site has contacted slayers, ogs (should be easy, right ? just ask jinro to investigate or just ask around), how come no one with korean contacts has made an interview about this ?
This world is always about rumors, about non verified facts, about biased sources....this whole thing smells bad.
And how would SlayerS, oGs, or any other Korean team be any less biased than the NASL or SC2Con?
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On August 14 2011 10:10 Medrea wrote:
OK this is getting confused and seriously out of hand.
Im just gonna sit down, ignore everything that is going on, and come back in like 10 days or so and see where we are at.
You are the smartest person in this thread 
In this case, wait & see are the most reasonable things to do.
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EPT
