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On August 13 2011 15:40 teamsolid wrote:
I think the biggest losers here are the spectators and the Korean players who stood a good chance of taking home the 50K (e.g. MC). On the other hand, the real big winners are the foreigners who now actually have a legit shot at winning. Sucks for E-Sports in the end though.
Pretty much sums up what I thought.
NASL was my biggest source of foreigner vs korean starcraft 2, it's a shame really. Sucks for E-Sports indeed. =[
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On August 13 2011 19:27 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 19:08 KeksX wrote:On August 13 2011 16:53 4ZakeN87 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I dont think this is such a big problem, in a way it make the tournament more interestring.
Everyone talks about the finals, but there is a 10 weeks tournament going up to the finals. I mean with 16+ top koreans in the ladder those weeks where likely to be boring as hell. I mean sure there would be high quality games but how relevant would they be? I mean almost all the koreans would make it through anyway. Even if Polt would lose to say Puma, do you think this would end up costing Polt his spot in the final? Most likely not. The rest of tournament would be a lot of completly one sided games.
Compare to MLG, what are the 2 first days about? Korean ass-kicking foreigners (=boring games), and then we can at the end of the second day conclude which of the foreigners that is likely to take the amazing 8th place. So for those that are interested to watch foreigners that is pretty much end of tournament. For those watching for the sake of the koreans they can tune in at the beginning of 3 day when the real tournament starts.
In NASL we would have exactly the same situation, only that instead of going on for 2 days it would have been 10 weeks. I guess some of the 19 Koreans would´nt make it to the finals, but is that really so interesting you want to look for 10 weeks just to decided which of the 3-4 koreans that missed the finals? I mean espically when both Thorzain and Naniwa dropped there spots, 2 of the very few foreigners that have any chanse of making a breakthrough amongst the Koreans.
Now it will be a lot more open, although I think all the remaining koreans will go to the finals. I wonder which players that will take free slots though. I really dont hope a bunch of B-class NA players take the places though when there is a lot more talent out there. Cant they invite Nerchio, Stephano or Major or someone along those lines. Cant bother to watch Machine, Kawaii and Catz getting 1-9 for 10 weeks. Sorry, but thats a horrible move by the NASL. I was thinking about buying a ticket but now that there will be only boring games I won't even watch the free streams... It must be awfully dull as a SC2 fan to be so uptight that you can't appreciate TSL3 semis and finals, or 95% of HSC and Assembly, Blizzard and Dreamhack Invitational, IPL and all other insanely entertaining games we've seen in various tournaments that haven't had koreans in them. Sucks to be you.
HSC was awesome due to the atmosphere!
And TSL was great because the foreigners in the semis proved that they could be the koreans!
I don't watch the rest, though. Mainly because I have so little time. :-/
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Lots of discussion in this thread but little mention of what this means for the NASL...
They must have done their financial planning based on expected subscriber numbers and the withdrawal of the Korean teams will most likely affect subscription revenue.
It is one thing to say "we can't offer you more without losing money" but this doesn't exclude "if we withdraw you will probably lose more in subscription revenue than it would cost you to fund us with full stipends" being also right.
Having some of your biggest crowd pullers retract at a point where there is very little room for cutting costs/adjusting expenses (because contracts are signed and expense schedules fixed) seems like a veritable nightmare from the NASL POV.
I am also confused about some of the comments regarding how many fans the Korean teams/players could gain by participating in the NASL - how exactly are they going to monetize these fans?
Don't get me wrong, I think there is a huge potential (because currently very little if any money flows directly from the fans to the teams - stuff like selling merchandise, selling coaching/tutorial videos, replay packs, access to streams of players practicing, ... is vastly underexplored) but at the moment no team seems to have real plans to tap that potential.
So having more fans globally might at best be attractive to some sponsors (and completely irrelevant to others that don't offer their products/services internationally) and is at worst a huge ego-boost for the players (which will just lead to problems with discipline, increased demands by the players, ...) but I don't see why the manager of a Korean team should be terribly concerned about building a western fanbase at this point in time.
("because the teams have an interest in making us pay for tournaments" is a bad answer as it suffers from a "tragedy of the commons"-style problem; any subscriber due to Team A's great marketing effort funds price money that will be distributed between Team A and Teams B, C and D - all of which did no marketing at all and are just leeching off Team A's expenses)
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I see it like this:
NASL: We want to invite the koreans, they will lift our tournament.
Koreans: We would like to come over, but we would like to be compensated.
NASL: Sure, we will give you 500 dollars per player.
Koreans: Okay, great. We really want to go.
Meanwhile in Korean after NASL: Its really big over there, lots of people. Lots of money involved. We are the attraction. We ought to get our share of this, as it costs us to go there, and they get all the benefits of us being there. And they are richer than we are...
Next NASL...
Koreans: We are the attraction. We want our costs covered.
NASL: Sure. I see that we really need you, so we are offering twice the amount of last time. We will give you 1000 dollars per player this time.
Koreans: But we are the attraction, and one of the reasons why you scoop lots of money and get better sponsorships. We are the stars, we feel we should be treated as such.
NASL: True that. Sorry. How about 2000 then?
Koreans: Ah so you really could give more, but try to be greedy. We are the attraction, and feel we shouldn't pay at all. You do not seem to get our position and value for your existence. We don't need you, you need us, and you try to be greedy about that fact. There are other tournaments. See if you can survive without us, and come back when you learn to treat us like stars of the tournament.
NASL to crowd: We tried our best. We showed great willingness to get the Koreans here, but for some odd reason they rejected everything. We do not understand why. Please sympathize with us, and support us.
Crowd cries: Oh no koreans, then who cares about the tournament?
NASL: Shit. We fucked up.
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On August 13 2011 21:36 Dracolich70 wrote:
I see it like this:
NASL: We want to invite the koreans, they will lift our tournament.
Koreans: We would like to come over, but we would like to be compensated.
NASL: Sure, we will give you 500 dollars per player.
Koreans: Okay, great. We really want to go.
NASL: Actually, it really was only a loan, so we will subtract it from your winning purse.
Koreans: Okay.
That's kinda wrong. There was a 500 dollar travel stipend that every player got, but 3-4 koreans that couldn't afford the plane ticket got an offer to have NASL cover the rest of the trip, and take what was needed out of the prices they won (where 500 dollar was guaranteed for a RO16 player).
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On August 13 2011 15:40 teamsolid wrote:
I think the biggest losers here are the spectators and the Korean players who stood a good chance of taking home the 50K (e.g. MC). On the other hand, the real big winners are the foreigners who now actually have a legit shot at winning. Sucks for E-Sports in the end though.
No, the biggest losers are those players who got robbed of a chance to compete in NASL because a bunch of players took the qualifying spots but won't be able to play now.
Bubbles, Optikzero, Gatored, Vibe, Nerchio, Minigun etc.
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On August 13 2011 21:40 Lobo2me wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 21:36 Dracolich70 wrote:
I see it like this:
NASL: We want to invite the koreans, they will lift our tournament.
Koreans: We would like to come over, but we would like to be compensated.
NASL: Sure, we will give you 500 dollars per player.
Koreans: Okay, great. We really want to go.
NASL: Actually, it really was only a loan, so we will subtract it from your winning purse.
Koreans: Okay. That's kinda wrong. There was a 500 dollar travel stipend that every player got, but 3-4 koreans that couldn't afford the plane ticket got an offer to have NASL cover the rest of the trip, and take what was needed out of the prices they won (where 500 dollar was guaranteed for a RO16 player). Thank you. Changed it then.
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On August 13 2011 21:57 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 15:40 teamsolid wrote:
I think the biggest losers here are the spectators and the Korean players who stood a good chance of taking home the 50K (e.g. MC). On the other hand, the real big winners are the foreigners who now actually have a legit shot at winning. Sucks for E-Sports in the end though. No, the biggest losers are those players who got robbed of a chance to compete in NASL because a bunch of players took the qualifying spots but won't be able to play now. Bubbles, Optikzero, Gatored, Vibe, Nerchio, Minigun etc.
well who knows, nasl either has to refill it empty spots now or reformat with the players they already have. so they might get a chance after all
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Honestly, for me this is a pretty big blow to my fanboyage of the Korean teams.
I feel like the foreign fans is a pretty big chunk of South Korea's.... success (? from the sound of it, maybe life-support is a better term) in SC2 so far, and their pulling out of a big money league has their foreign fans really disappointed.
I can't help but feel that this is some shady political move.
Even if it isn't, though, they should know that Korean players do have a lot of fans internationally, hence the reason their pro's are getting contracts with international bodies (SK, FXO, Liquid, EG, CoL, etc).
Maybe they should start looking towards international sponsers (a la SlayerS) for support (though maybe they are, then strike this comment from the jury, thank you).
Still, having Koreans in foreign tournaments is only good for the games, even if our homeland heroes get pwned by the SK powerhouses.... It forces our pros to practice harder to compete.
I really hope that NASL continues to have success despite this blow in Season 2, and that the Korean teams will come around for Season 3.
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i think it will be much easier for korean teams to find sponsorships when they have no players in one of the biggest leagues outside of korea.
...
i think this decision wil bite korean teams in the ass sooner or later.
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Maybe I'm reading too far into this but when the first NASL came out I paid for the subscription and dropped my GOM subscription for two months to compensate. Now in NASL 2 I'm thinking of sticking with GOM. This was a slick move by the Korean companies involved.
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Where is a sponsor who will save the day and pay for the koreans!!!!!! :D
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You know half of me says well that sucks and half of me says good riddance.
Its gonna be a loss on the foreigners' and viewers' parts to not have the Koreans, but NASL was pretty responsive in my opinion, so the blood is on the Koreans' hands with this one I think. Too bad :/. Hopefully we'll see some go through the open, or Koreans will come over more in general seeking sponsorships... so more E-Sports for everyone of exceedingly high caliber.
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I'd have liked to have seen MC and the others again, but in all honesty if they don't want to come over, screw em. We have enough of a community here to make for a spectacular tournament.
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Well i will still be buying a ticket, i didnt care for most of the koreans anyway... who the hell is zenio?
I wanna watch CatZ Idra Grubby TLO WhiteRa the list goes on! These players are still infinitly better than we.
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Hundreds of thousands of a price, but not able to spend like 500 dollars for the travel expenses, for lots of more viewers? Phew.
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This sounds really greedy from the korean players. Do they expect every tournament to start paying for their flights? If so then why can't for example european players start demanding airfare from MLG, NASL etc? Sounds really dumb to me.
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On August 13 2011 22:33 mrwynd wrote:
Maybe I'm reading too far into this but when the first NASL came out I paid for the subscription and dropped my GOM subscription for two months to compensate. Now in NASL 2 I'm thinking of sticking with GOM. This was a slick move by the Korean companies involved.
This has nothing to do with GOM, the players and teams are looking out for their own best interests. Do you really think TheWinD is saying to himself, "I really want western fans to buy GOM subscriptions instead of NASL subscriptions, so I will make this move to deny my players the potential of winning $50,000."?
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On August 13 2011 19:30 FT628 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 15:40 teamsolid wrote:
I think the biggest losers here are the spectators and the Korean players who stood a good chance of taking home the 50K (e.g. MC). On the other hand, the real big winners are the foreigners who now actually have a legit shot at winning. Sucks for E-Sports in the end though. Pretty much sums up what I thought. NASL was my biggest source of foreigner vs korean starcraft 2, it's a shame really. Sucks for E-Sports indeed. =[
It was all played with lag anyway and if you remember most of the league games were dreadfully dull.
The LAN was quality (barring technical issues) but you're not missing much with the league.
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On August 13 2011 21:36 Dracolich70 wrote:
I see it like this:
NASL: We want to invite the koreans, they will lift our tournament.
Koreans: We would like to come over, but we would like to be compensated.
NASL: Sure, we will give you 500 dollars per player.
Koreans: Okay, great. We really want to go.
Meanwhile in Korean after NASL: Its really big over there, lots of people. Lots of money involved. We are the attraction. We ought to get our share of this, as it costs us to go there, and they get all the benefits of us being there. And they are richer than we are...
Next NASL...
Koreans: We are the attraction. We want our costs covered.
NASL: Sure. I see that we really need you, so we are offering twice the amount of last time. We will give you 1000 dollars per player this time.
Koreans: But we are the attraction, and one of the reasons why you scoop lots of money and get better sponsorships. We are the stars, we feel we should be treated as such.
NASL: True that. Sorry. How about 2000 then?
Koreans: Ah so you really could give more, but try to be greedy. We are the attraction, and feel we shouldn't pay at all. You do not seem to get our position and value for your existence. We don't need you, you need us, and you try to be greedy about that fact. There are other tournaments. See if you can survive without us, and come back when you learn to treat us like stars of the tournament.
NASL to crowd: We tried our best. We showed great willingness to get the Koreans here, but for some odd reason they rejected everything. We do not understand why. Please sympathize with us, and support us.
Crowd cries: Oh no koreans, then who cares about the tournament?
NASL: Shit. We fucked up.
more or less exactly my thoughts
Koreans agreed to play, then kept demanding more and more and more, every "yes" from the NASL seemed a sign of weakness to they so they kept demanding more 
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EPT
