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here's is why MOBA games like dota/hon will never surpass sc2:
it's a team game. It's hard to establish an identity. Yes, I know football is a team sport and its more popular than tennis. But the reason here is that its hard to distinguish style when you got a whole team on one map.
It's hard to spectate since 10 people are doing their own little things.
Spectator game knowledge is inconsistent because of far too many hero combinations. The skills and mechanics in MOBA games are too concise and detailed. You might not even know what all the skills do. It might look fun to use skills here and there, but spectators can't really see the 'why' as good as Starcraft 2. sc2, zerg, protoss, terrans, thats it. lotsa units, but they're the same each time
The games are too long.
Each game can run 30+ minutes. pro games are long ass 1hr average. Shit. Why? Because positioning>initiation.
There isn't a bigger picture. Meaning, a bigger strategy like sc2. strategies come in the form of micro and positioning. it's very peculiar and the overall concept is too bland. u got a capture the flag game vs a freakin war game.
That said, most of these points are somewhat vague and can be argued about to a certain extent, but overall, I think MOBA games will be a great addition to e-sports. It's just I think individual leagues>team leagues because of celebrity status and other reasons.
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On August 10 2011 04:53 PlosionCornu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 04:20 Intricate1 wrote:
With the Insane popularity, Why not?
Whats good for MOBA is good for SC2 IMO.
ESports Fighting! It cannot grow outside its borders, its playing fanbase. People who don't play the game (regularly or at all) will not understand what's going on. That does not happen with sc2.
I disagree a lot with this statement. Show me anything in this world and I will not understand it until I do one of two things - try it or watch someone else perform it correctly. Until that occurs, the object, concept, game, etc. will mean nothing to me. I know this because I started watching fighting games recently. I've played them in my day, but never really seriously or with a lot of attention. Once MvC3, MK9 and SSF4 came out, I understood the basic concept, but not the mechanics or what the players were doing. As I watched more, I saw patterns and emphasis on certain actions. Eventually, I started picking out what was considered "good" and what was considered "bad". And this was not only for the basics of the game. I began learning which characters were good, which combos were good, what was hard to pull off and what was impressive. For example, when i first saw Dark Phoenix in MvC3, i was like, wow she's strong, moreso than she should be. I didn't understand why she was strong either. She activated it (didn't know how this happened either) and then particles started flying every where. Soon enough, everyone's dead on the other team. Eventually, I learned that it only activates with lvl 5 super when she dies, that the particles are multiple ranged attacks that are homing and that she has a super that can give her HP back. At this point, i started seeing why everyone hated her and why she would pop up so often. Soon I understood the the stigma around her. It is small things like this that slowly pulled me into the MvC3 culture that I could not understand before.
Another example. People have argued that SC:BW was so good because anyone could understand it. They would use the Korean girls as an example, using the sexist concept that "oh if a girl can understand it just watching it, then it must be a universal language". This isn't the case at all. My friends at school and even friends of mine that play games themselves could watch a game and not know whats going on. They see the screen and the armies fighting, but to them, they can't discern anything. This isn't because they're idiots, it's because they're ignorant (not in a bad way). If they took the time to watch as few as 5 games of professional StarCraft, and I mean actually WATCH the game, they would quickly be able to discern what is going on.
There is no reason why this is not the same case with LoL. Since games last about 35 - 40 minutes, any person who is watching will easily begin to see patterns involving the 10 characters on the field. After a while, they'll begin to see the effects each do and learn what is going on. By the end of the 40 minutes, they can almost expect what to see from each of the ten. This means that every game a person watches in a game, he or she can easily learn what is going on within the bounds of the game, so long as they are willing to pay attention and learn.
Then again, there are those who have no interest in paying attention and learning when playing games. These are casual gamers who will very likely suck at the games they play. However, this is another matter :-p.
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I hope it becomes big and spreads the word about Esports. We shouldn't be selfish and hope that we are the biggest  We're all helping Esports so who cares. I'm not sure what their community is like though :/
And people saying that you know whats going on in SC2 without even playing the game... I had no idea what was going on when I first saw SC2 xD Maybe I'm dumb but all I could understand were the battles
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part of the understanding of a game comes from commentators and spectating... and IMO its hard to do both for MOBA games.
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Hotshotgg(LoL player) gets just as much viewers as Day9 daily and he streams for hours on end
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"MOBA" games are already bigger than starcraft 2.
Just check the Chinese community.
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if you're talking about dota, that game as been out far longer than sc2. its a casual past time
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How many tournaments does LoL even have (no bashing here, i am just asking)? I hear about Dota tournaments. I hear about HoN tournaments. So far, I have not seem many LoL tournaments, except one because for some reason the developer decided to include the stream in the game (or something like that?) and the LR thread for a sc2 tournament airing at the same time had gone in total berserk . How many LoL teams are there in the first place?
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i am certain dota 2 will lead esports. theres already more people playing any of the 3 moba games than sc2
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On August 10 2011 05:19 Lokian wrote:
its a casual past time
It has competitions and is an esport, just like sc2.
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My prediction is that LoL will become pretty big e-sport, Dota 2 and HoN not so much.
HoN seems to be dying but might grow now when its going f2p.
Dota 2 has 3 problems at the moment to succeed:
1. It's most likely not going to be f2p which means casual players might not buy this game instead stick with LoL or HoN.
2.From my understanding Dota 2 has inferior gameplay as it caters more to hardcore players and not to casual players.
3. So far there has been no trailers, gameplay or commercials for dota 2, Valve really need to try hype this game up and not waste there money with a big tournament.
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LOL is already big but it won't affect starcraft
Whenever i watched LOL streams, the viewers are pretty much the same or more than SC2 streamers. The problem with LOL is that there are less tournaments but it's in the right track.
DOTA/LOL are entirely different genre as starcraft and they can coexist just like PC games and Console games
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I think that there is a chance that games like league of legends could surpass SC2. As i play both I found that LoL had a much easier learning curve and it was easier to fully understand the whole game. This combined with the fact that it is free, I think means that it is more accessible and more people will try it and maybe there are people out there that don't know they would be interested in E sports but would be tempted by Lol being free.
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On August 10 2011 05:17 tyr wrote:
"MOBA" games are already bigger than starcraft 2.
Just check the Chinese community.
This.
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On August 10 2011 05:21 Trumpstyle wrote:
My prediction is that LoL will become pretty big e-sport, Dota 2 and HoN not so much.
HoN seems to be dying but might grow now when its going f2p.
Dota 2 has 3 problems at the moment to succeed:
1. It's most likely not going to be f2p which means casual players might not buy this game instead stick with LoL or HoN.
2.From my understanding Dota 2 has inferior gameplay as it caters more to hardcore players and not to casual players.
3. So far there has been no trailers, gameplay or commercials for dota 2, Valve really need to try hype this game up and not waste there money with a big tournament.
What the logic
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Baa?21242 Posts
On August 10 2011 05:19 Lokian wrote:
if you're talking about dota, that game as been out far longer than sc2. its a casual past time
China disagrees. In China SC2 is the casual past time.
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At this point, no game will pass SC2 in competitiveness. It won't have the same skillcap, and it won't have near the competitive atmosphere. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me if it passed it in popularity. People don't like hard games anymore.
They ESPECIALLY don't like competitive games that destroy you for being a lower skilled player. Thus, people will drift into technically competitive games (as in one player technically is there to beat someone else.) If your bad, SC2 will punish you for it. People don't like this. They go play COD or, in this case, LoL, DoTA, etc. I don't doubt LoL and HoN and others are competitive, but nothing compared to what it takes to be great at SC. People still play WoW "competitively" too, and that will also remain more popular as a game.
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While i really enjoy playing games like league of legends sometimes, I really just cant get behind watching MOBA/Dota Tournaments like i can for starcraft 2.
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I think they could become just as or even more "popular" but I still believe starcraft 2 and especially starcraft 1 require more natural skill, critical thinking, decision making, and multitasking. Sure in LoL you have to know what your character can and can't do. You have to know when is safe to engange and when isn't. You must know what your opponent is doing and what your team is doing. The same is true for sc2, but the skill gap is much much larger. i've watched some high level LoL like dreamhack and such, and I play it occassionaly at a low level. But I feel that it is almost the decision making/coordination of team and you alone that is the difference. In LoL every player has the same idea, get minion kills, items, gank and such. In sc2 each player can has his or her own style and be succesful with it. (MMA's relentless dropping vs zerg against goody's mech style. The skill gap and the differences between not just the games but the players themselves is what truly sets the games apart and imo makes sc2 the better, more skill requiring game.
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On August 10 2011 05:23 LlOoKkIi wrote:
I think that there is a chance that games like league of legends could surpass SC2. As i play both I found that LoL had a much easier learning curve and it was easier to fully understand the whole game. This combined with the fact that it is free, I think means that it is more accessible and more people will try it and maybe there are people out there that don't know they would be interested in E sports but would be tempted by Lol being free.
Pretty much. I can attest to this.
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EPT
