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On August 10 2011 03:33 JiYan wrote:
its also been discussed before that the dreamhack success was highly inflated due to LoL incorporating the stream into the game itself so that if anyone would log into the game - they would essentially be counted as a viewer.
This is SO FALSE....
You obviously didn't log into LoL, during dreamhack there was a very obvious link to the stream when you logged in the game but you needed your internet browser to access that stream, it was not integrated to the game.
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They will stand side-by-side. Tournaments will always look to have an individual and a team game. I think DotA2 will most likely rival SC2 in terms of viewers and prize money, but I don't expect it say have SC2 removed from tournaments because of it. That's more HoN/LoL and maybe CS' problem. SC2 will remain the giant of an esports game it is till another RTS, which I doubt, comes in to take its place.
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On August 10 2011 03:39 Odyssey wrote:
With LOL having 10 games a second start and a much much larger amount of players then SC2 it is safe to say yes it will and already is. The thing is LOL is a joke still on a competitive level balance wise compared to SC2. Although they have taken big strides to fix it. I think LOL popularity may have already surpassed SC2 but not in the competitive scene.
That being said I think SC2 will and should stay top dog in competitive gaming. LOL sells power IMO with their micro transaction system and even with them trying to keep new balanced champions coming out it seems almost impossible to keep the balance. Although some argue the general unbalance makes it balanced.
The more good games in tourneys though the merrier IMO. I see no reason SC2 and LOL can't coexist and both be successful.
Also I agree that LOL HON DOTA all are much worse spectator games then SC2 just because you have no idea what is happening and who all the Champions are and what they do. SC2 is easy and fun to watch.
Yea and usually with the pro's in moba games (at least from what ive seen) its mostly creeping for the first 10 minute before there is any kills. And there is alot less kills then in amateur games as the players are better at getting away etc.
Whereas i think with sc2 its the opposite, in the amateur level, players turtle to max more and then attack (there is less harass thats for sure) so there is more action at the pro level as opposed to less.
Thats my take on it at least, i dont really find pro MOBA matches that fun to watch, i do play HON here and there but thats about it.
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theres enough players for all
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Is everyone here forgetting a very important fact?
why is SC2 easier to watch and generally more enjoyed by the spectator than a MOBA?
in most cases, they're are only 2 people playing at once. MUCH MUCH LESS TO FOLLOW.
MOBA's like LoL, DotA, and HoN are at least 3v3, and up to 5v5. that's trying to keep a single (perhaps double if someone was clever enough) spectator camera on the action, on no less than 6 people at once.
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On August 10 2011 03:43 howerpower wrote:
It's not a competition, Starcraft isn't going anywhere.
Exactly. Why must everything be a competition.
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Yes and no. Yes because the amount of people who play/own these games is much higher, so the amount who may be inclined to watch pro's play is way up. If sc2 was free like lol, I don't think it would even be close though.
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On August 10 2011 03:33 JiYan wrote:
its also been discussed before that the dreamhack success was highly inflated due to LoL incorporating the stream into the game itself so that if anyone would log into the game - they would essentially be counted as a viewer. this combined with the fact that there are too many competitors probably hurts its chances of making it as big as sc2. HoN is now f2p and theres dota 2 coming out, i just dont see there being enough stability in their 'scene' to really get a consistent thing like starcraft has had.
it was proven that they only were counted as viewers if they pressed play on the video.
Also if Riot ever does showmatches which they do occasionally, they get 15-30k viewers
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I think MOBA games will become more popular than RTS games like Sc2, but it may not surpass it in the e-sports value. RTS games are so much complex, and to be honest I believe they require more skill. MOBA games, especially free games like LoL are geared to more casual players, and should not really be heavily used in e-sports. Dota 2, however it may turn out could be pretty big in e-sports especially with Valve sponsoring these huge tournaments.
The two can be compared but should not be compared too closely. Usually there are going to be PC gamers and Console gamers, so those two should not be compared. However moba and rts games both being on the computer can be compared with each other to an extent. Many people I know went from playing sc2 to LoL because it was free, easy to play (many were discouraged in bronze), and the game was available to everyone so anyone they knew could play with them.
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I've been playing LoL pretty much exclusively for the past couple weeks. I've had more success getting friends in for a game or two. The free to play model helps in that regard. Their ip/xp system also encourages more frequent play than the bnet ladder IMO.
That said, I only watch SC2. I love watching players who have put in the time to master the game. I think the strategic depth and balance is better in SC2.
How do you observe a MOBA anyway? You can't watch 3 lanes at once, plus the river/jungle on both sides. The minimap is too small, especially on lower quality streams.
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While starcraft is difficult to play, it's very easy for someone to observe. Very short too, an average game time of 12 real time minutes is miniscule.
Dota on the other hand not only is a difficult game but also very demanding for observers. To appreciate dota someone must know how to play it, the better he does the more things he can grasp. Put on top of that an average game time of 28mins and you deny any lighthearted newcomers.
Now, if by leader of competitive gaming you mean the most popular game, both lol and dota have more people following them than sc2.
They are not as well established as sc is though as an esport. We will see if dota2 can become one, with salaries, team houses, annual prestigious leagues etc.
Finally lets not forget that they are 2 totally different genres, so they don't hurt each other. The rise of dota2 can only help the growth of esports.
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I barely play SC2 compared to the amount I watch it. I think it will be pretty hard for other games to create the same appeal for (non-playing) spectators.
I can't really compare the two (SC2 vs. MOBA) yet, because I’ve never seen a casted/commentated MOBA match. But I’ve watched some streams and VODs and I have a hard time comprehending what's going on. With the wide range of characters, spells, abilities and constant leveling up I just don't know what to expect when someone enters a fight. This is a big hurdle for me to enjoy those games.
During the SC2 beta I started out with zero knowledge of the game, but just looking at the size of the armies and appearance of the units I would have some grasp of what was going on and what to expect from a battle. IMHO for SC2 it’s a lot easier to comprehend the game(state) even if you don't know any unit stats or abilities. Also, SC2 battles look way more awesome.
SC2 games have an amazing tension arc. SC2 games have a beginning, a middle and an end. With a main plot, several side plots and plot twists (and Plott brothers). Even though I’ve tried to appreciate them, MOBA games just feel like units running up and down a map to me.
Those games might get bigger number of viewers and a bigger competitive scene, but the “view to play”-ratio of SC2 will be hard to beat.
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As much as it pains me, I don't have a hard time imagining MOBA games like League of Legends and DOTA 2 being on the same level (if not higher) than Starcraft 2. Though both RTS and MOBA have a notable learning curve, the MOBA learning curve is more of a learning cliff. Once you get the mechanics down, learning slows down considerably. On top of that, games like League are much more accessible by being free to play and, in a general sense, MOBA games are better suited for casual viewing. It's a lot easier to digest characters attacking and killing each other than many of the mechanics behind SC2.
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MOBA games are the NASCAR of ESPORTS.
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On August 10 2011 03:34 Joseph123 wrote:
the thing in dota is that you reach your maximum skill level and you can't improve anymore cause of the nature of the game.. only thing you do is watch replays and think of strategies
while in sc2 you need to constantly play or you get worse
so for sc2 pro player to play dota = waste of talent
but this has a good side you can be competitive at dota by just playing tournaments if you have the required skill and the time wasted is minimal
both games are fun and totally different
What's with all this misguided conjecture?
I don't think people understand the nature of DotA..... It's a team-based fighting/farming game. Team based games have a lot of extra dynamics that SC2/SCbw will never have. You can't compare the skill caps in terms of individual mechanics (which I assume you're doing based on your phrasing of "sc2 pro player -> dota= waste"). Sure, everyone will reach a level of high end mechanics (because there's only really micro in DotA), but that's just one factor of skill level that's heavily emphasized in SC/rts's, but not in DotA. Competitive DotA relies on skills that parallel more closely with fighting games: mind games, predicting opponent moves, countering, a large amount of micro timings, game sense, vast knowledge of details of every other character (e.g. fighting game combos/moves vs DotA hero abilities/item pickups). It's like you're saying fighting games take no skill because everyone knows how to use their buttons and moves at the competitive level. It's a complete disregard for other aspects of the competitive nature of the game. Also, the team-gameness adds in the strategical part of skill, which requires a HUGE amount of coordination
Let me ask you, what type of sports generally get more viewership, team sports or 1v1 sports?. I'll try to explain why I think there's a difference. Team based sports adds onto the same excitement that's generated by 1v1 sports. You'll always have 1v1 skirmishes in team based sports. But in team based sports you also have the whole 'that's mother fucking teamwork' going on. This is just as fun to watch, simply because it's always awesome to watch human collaboration to create beautiful plays.
For people arguing that difficult nature of understanding what's going on in DotA compared to SC2, I think you're a bit biased. A lot of my friends who even play SC2 (and do not go on teamliquid), don't know what's going on in a match and are turned off as a result from watching esports. This is the teamliquid community, pretty much everyone knows what's generally going on in a match. But whenever I show the game to people who haven't even played SC2, while they may be attracted to the colourful visuals, they're not so interested in finding out what's going on.
And back to the main topic,
From what I've heard, the DotA scene in asia, and especially in China, is that it's a bit larger than the growing NA/EU SC2 scene here, but a bit smaller than the SCBW scene in Korea.
If you were to look at it from a monetary point of view, DotA/MOBA genre will eventually surpass the SC2 scene by far. Most of you might've heard about Valve's DotA 2 1,000,000$ tournament. But that's not the only extraordinary thing. After that announcement, one of the top chinese teams playing in that tournament was bought out for 6 million by a billionaire's son. That's ridiculous.
Really, the only thing that is up in the air is how Valve' is going to push DotA 2 onto its consumers. Will they try to promote esports similar to what Blizzard did with SC2? If so, then it'll solve a lot of problems. SC:BW's engine was a bit outdated and not as appealing to watch for the general populous, similar to how DotA (WC3)'s engine is a bit outdated, and not the greatest to watch/play for DotA. Seeing that Valve is an extremely accomplished company, and that IceFrog is generally esports minded, we can see a very powerful game that may end up on the forefront of esports, along with Starcraft.
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I find MOBA games a lot harder to watch than SC2. It always feels like you're missing large parts of the story. I could see it working if the viewers could opt to control the camera themselves and watch the lanes/engagements they wanted to watch, but that hardly seems feasible considering that League of Legends can't even provide functional replays or single observers, let alone observers en masse.
So no, until MOBA games feel better to watch, I'll be watching SC2 
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With the Insane popularity, Why not?
Whats good for MOBA is good for SC2 IMO.
ESports Fighting!
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On August 10 2011 03:37 redFF wrote:
it's like saying "Can Halo kill starcraft 2?" Different Genres, pointless thread.
The pb is that MOBA's are fusions between Halo and SC2 :p It's a bastard genre of game.
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people overrate LoL. everyone's going crazy about the amount of viewers they got for DH like it's what they would give every time. no sorry, DH to LoL is like what WCG was to foreigner BW. it was the tournament everyone got big eyes over. all the best American teams were going to LAN against almost all the best EU teams after a long period of whisperings online that EU was starting to overtake the US, that the former best US team was getting surpassed, that some of the second string players on the top 2 US teams were making their own team and they were looking really good in online practice. there was sooo much hype and idk about the EU scene but there was a lot of backstory to that event
and when you consider all of that, SC2 at Anaheim does what LoL took an entire year of hype and extremely intrusive advertisement (even though they didn't embed the stream, they might as well have) if you were playing the game at any point during the week of the tournament
they have potential to please sponsors, but it's just a shit game that makes me sad to see it even put on a circuit like MLG and ESL. i played it for a while just to understand DotA clones and LoL was free so that's what i got into, and it started out fun while i was figuring things out, but then basically became a game where only 1 in 20-30 games had anything remotely interesting happening. in my games, it's usually a lane feeding and making us lose, or it plays like a sloppy version of a high level game. in high level games, people either get ganked hard early and lose the game for their team, or farm for 10s of minutes, have 1-2 big fights, and the winner of the fight usually wins the game unless they do something dumb afterwards that lets the losing team take advantage when they respawn.
HoN is much more aggressive and imo funner to watch and play in general but the player base isn't there like LoL is, so naturally greed wins out and LoL gets put on the circuits
DotA clones in general are just not a type of game you'd enjoy watching if you don't play. it's honestly not a game you inherently enjoy watching even if you do play. unlike SC2, hardly any of the people who play enjoy watching, and the amount of people who don't play and watch is just sdfsdlfgkjsdfglk
it's also a game that gets stale if you play so much that you figure the game out, because unlike SC, you can barely innovate with what you have. you get new heroes at intervals that you learn but integrating new heroes into the meta basically comes down to "is this hero OP or almost the same thing as an old hero but better? use it. no? ignore it."
i gave DotA clones a shot for about a year after being interested in how serious people took it competitively and that's the conclusion i came to with both HoN and LoL, idk about DotA. LoL will satisfy the stream numbers that the event organizers look for, but the game still sucks to me. i have no real bias, i ended up taking the games more seriously than SC2 for a while, but it left a bitter taste in my mouth as i started to truly understand what the games were, which is stale and lacking in a lot of ways
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On August 10 2011 03:33 JiYan wrote:
its also been discussed before that the dreamhack success was highly inflated due to LoL incorporating the stream into the game itself so that if anyone would log into the game - they would essentially be counted as a viewer. .
Where was this?
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EPT
