EPTCould MOBA Games Give Starcraft 2 a Run? - Page 12
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VIIseven
United States16 Posts
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RedHelix
250 Posts
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tyCe
Australia2542 Posts
On August 10 2011 11:12 Steveling wrote: There are more trolls, db's, wannabees in the dota communities than actually intelligent and helpful people. The players are not much better either. Most bm like mofos, while having enormous egos. On both cases there are bright exeptions ofc. In total the Dota community is one of the worst I've encountered, like, in any game ever.(I know the reasons why dota attracts such an audience but I shall not go into this) The tournaments are there and some of them are going on for quite a few years. The prizes are too small though. I'd say a good 80% of pro players don't have salaries and in general the whole structure seems very unorganized and amatuerish. Let me finish by saying that most of these problems stem from the fact that dota is just a custom map with no real support behind it. So I expect many of these things to eclipse gradually with the coming of Dota2. I agree with your assessment but disagree with your reasoning. I would say that the main reason that the SC2 community is so "mature" and fantastic is because of tl.net. For tl members who were here since the BW days, I think it is quite evident that the posting quality gradually improved as BW and its international fans/tl members aged, and accordingly, cultivated a fantastic community that is both mature and connected by love of BW. With the aging of the community, the standards of the forums increased, such that when SC2 was released, the sudden surge of new members was extremely obvious by their accustomed internet mentalities drawn from other internet communities. It was only after months since SC2's release that the new members had gotten used to tl.net's culture. Since tl.net is so big, pretty much every SC2 fan knows of it or is a member, and they probably bring that tl.net culture to other SC2 communities out there. In DotA/LoL, the playerbase is much younger, but more importantly, there isn't a tl.net-type community that aims to provide mature and moderated discussion of DotA/LoL and other interests. If tl.net ever expanded to include other ESPORTS titles other than SC2, I would expect a similar community culture in those sections given that the same level of moderation is applied. I really think that this is a route that tl.net can go, if it has the ambition to turn this community from a BW/SC2 community to a competitive gaming community, especially if it wanted to go corporate since DotA/LoL will bring a lot more views and other potential revenue. Edit: Honestly, this is a fantastic business possibility for tl.net. The market for DotA/LoL is huge and there is a void in their communities for a forum of moderated discussion. Many SC2 fans are also DotA/LoL fans, and I bet that tl.net would not lack volunteers to run a DotA/LoL division. The infrastructure is here, the fanbase is here, the volunteer-force is here, and the market is here. Also the DotA thread and the LoL subforum barely count. I mean an entire forum, like the BW forum or the SC2 forum, or even a subsidiary website. | ||
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BearStorm
United States795 Posts
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
The first and most obvious concern is the fact that they are games that hinge almost entirely around the heroes and abilities. It's difficult to really explain the implications of these choices in any short amount of time. With a game like Starcraft, though there are many units and abilities, the matchups themselves are much easier to describe in a relatively consistent manner. The second issue is the average game time. An average Starcraft game is something like 10-15 minutes? I don't know about HoN and LoL because I haven't played them, but for DotA, it was really common for games to pass the hour mark. It's just really difficult to keep an uninformed viewer (or even an informed one) engaged for that amount of time. The third issue MOBA games face is the spread of the action. In a 1v1 game, a player can only focus on one area at a time. Some players may be able to quickly switch this focus back and forth, but in terms of action on the map, this generally limits significant movements to being in 2-3 places at any given time. With MOBA games, you're dealing with a lot of players intensely focused on all different areas of the map. This makes it much more difficult to follow from an observer standpoint and when coupled with the long game times, that generally means you're often pretty confused or missing A LOT of the action for an hour or more at a time. By contrast, a game genre with a similar problem (FPS) only has matches that last a few minutes at a time, which despite the chaos makes it easier for spectators to follow because the situation is constantly resetting to some degree. The fourth issue is the jargon. DotA has a lot of very specific language and terminology that you can't keep defining every single game and that often need to be understood before you can even begin to understand the commentary and analysis. Starcraft comparatively has relatively little game-specific terminology (it still has a good amount). There's a reason MOBA vods and commentaries haven't really been as common or prolific as Starcraft. From the perspective of the person creating the content, it's really difficult to make a good production and from the perspective of people watching it, it's just really difficult to follow what's going on without any background knowledge. Those that do have a background in this genre also seem to prefer replays because so much is actually missed in vods because of the nature of the game. *Edit added a fourth point. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
On August 10 2011 03:27 AustinCM wrote: Could games like League of Legends and the upcoming DotA 2 give Starcraft 2 a run for the leader of competitive gaming? The recent success of dreamhack has shown that the games definitely have some potential and the developers of such games are designing them as eSports, by taking balance as a first priority. I have limited experience with DotA and HoN but I know LoL is really fun and popular and because it can be easily picked up by casuals could it become more popular than our beloved Starcraft 2? Nope. Starcraft has an unlimited amount of possibilities while a Dota game will just be similar things over and over. I don't have a problem watching it, but nothing compares to people playing at 300 apm near perfection for 20 minutes. | ||
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On August 10 2011 12:38 NoobSkills wrote: Nope. Starcraft has an unlimited amount of possibilities while a Dota game will just be similar things over and over. I don't have a problem watching it, but nothing compares to people playing at 300 apm near perfection for 20 minutes. I would really argue that DotA actually has much more possibilities and variation than Starcraft and also that nobody in Starcraft plays "at 300 apm near perfection for 20 minutes". Not even close, really. I'll concede that DotA often looks like the same thing (lots of flashes and effects) for an hour at a time, but I can assure you that there's often a lot more implications to the game going on with each passing second than there appear to be. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On August 10 2011 12:04 zz_ wrote: Read beyond the title. And please link these incredible MOBA examples, that's the point - to learn more about what people find so exciting in another game. I'd be glad if MOBA could create such a scene. No, the thread is between MOBAs and SC2. Read the title. And your videos still aren't making any sense, what do you mean with MOBAs creating "such a scene". What kind of scene? The picture is self-explanatory, BW has a huge following, sure, but how on earth does the klazartling video and the OSL hype video prove anything else than the fact that people like BW and Klazart speaks way too fast. You're just linking stuff you find emotionally engaging while providing zero context. A person who likes dota might as well link you to the LGD vs Kingsurf replay from 2009 and it would mean just as little to you as the stuff you linked means to someone who follows MOBAs exclusively. RTS has proven it can make old people cry and hug each other with joy, little children that can barely talk shouting team names, and hundreds of fangirls screaming like it's the Beatles era. That can't be achieved simply by giving 1 million dollar prize, or creating a lot of e-hype on forums. It comes from the core principles of these games which make them very watchable as well as playable. So far I've mostly seen arguments that MOBAs are playable and even some good pros like them. | ||
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zz_
Sweden1022 Posts
On August 10 2011 12:19 tyCe wrote: Honestly, this is a fantastic business possibility for tl.net. The market for DotA/LoL is huge and there is a void in their communities for a forum of moderated discussion. Many SC2 fans are also DotA/LoL fans, and I bet that tl.net would not lack volunteers to run a DotA/LoL division. The infrastructure is here, the fanbase is here, the volunteer-force is here, and the market is here. Also the DotA thread and the LoL subforum barely count. I mean an entire forum, like the BW forum or the SC2 forum, or even a subsidiary website. This is actually a great idea, the DotA scene doesn't really have a huge english forum besides gosugamers (which is filled with trolls/spammers) and playdota, which lacks a really active userbase. Probably won't happen, but it would be awesome if it did. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
Its possible that LoL could get bigger than SC2, but its too early to tell. For all the prize money being thrown at it, there hasnt been many tournaments. And the game is still lacking a decent spectator mode. | ||
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Jampackedeon
United States2053 Posts
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sevia
United States954 Posts
MOBAs break that rule entirely. The incredibly high barrier to entry provides for good competition, but not good watching. Unlike Starcraft, you need to be a player to be a spectator. | ||
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zz_
Sweden1022 Posts
On August 10 2011 12:49 figq wrote: Read beyond the title. And please link these incredible MOBA examples, that's the point - to learn more about what people find so exciting in another game. I'd be glad if MOBA could create such a scene. RTS has proven it can make old people cry and hug each other with joy, little children that can barely talk shouting team names, and hundreds of fangirls screaming like it's the Beatles era. That can't be achieved simply by giving 1 million dollar prize, or creating a lot of e-hype on forums. It comes from the core principles of these games which make them very watchable as well as playable. So far I've mostly seen arguments that MOBAs are playable and even some good pros like them. I've read beyond the title, and the OP, just like the title, states the question that you seem to not get: Can a MOBA game become as huge of an esport as the SC2? I answered this question in my first post, i.e. with a "In popularity yes. As an esport no, most likely not." And if you speak Chinese, I'm sure you can find stuff like that. I do not, however, so I'm sadly unable to help you find that. Also the screaming fangirls come from a popularity mentality that only exists in korea and nowhere else, simply because of how popular BW is. But frankly, a game's potential as an esport isn't judged by how many emotional videos you can find. Here, I can link you to one about DotA: Is it a touching video for those who know about the DotA scene? Yes. Does the existence of that video make DotA a better esport than anything else? No. | ||
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supdubdup
United States916 Posts
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
On August 10 2011 12:38 NoobSkills wrote: Nope. Starcraft has an unlimited amount of possibilities while a Dota game will just be similar things over and over. I don't have a problem watching it, but nothing compares to people playing at 300 apm near perfection for 20 minutes. That's a pretty ignorant statement. What you're saying about Dota games is essentially someone saying about SC2, "Nope, it's all just similar things every game, people just build armies and attack each other over and over." | ||
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toadyy
United Kingdom179 Posts
They are more the opposite really SC2 community is very inclusive to new comers, there is alot of helpful and friendly people out there. In the DOTA community it's a very hostile place for a newbie, you just have to join a game and try and play and hope you don't get kicked for feeding or something. | ||
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toadyy
United Kingdom179 Posts
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Disquiet
Australia628 Posts
MOBA games are easier, more fun and more addictive to play than starcraft 2. But, they are very boring to watch. So I wouldn't be surprised if MOBA games get a fair amount of viewership in tournaments simply because of sheer size of the playerbase. But the potential for being entertaining to someone unfamiliar with the game is very low. I think starcraft 2 has much more potential to grow above and beyond its playerbase, whereas I feel MOBA viewership numbers will forever depend on how much the game is played. I don't think you'll ever hear someone say "I love to watch LoL but I don't really play it". However I hear this sentiment all the time with sc2. | ||
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
On August 10 2011 13:24 Disquiet wrote: Having played and watched both, this is my opinion. MOBA games are easier, more fun and more addictive to play than starcraft 2. But, they are very boring to watch. So I wouldn't be surprised if MOBA games get a fair amount of viewership in tournaments simply because of sheer size of the playerbase. But the potential for being entertaining to someone unfamiliar with the game is very low. I think starcraft 2 has much more potential to grow above and beyond its playerbase, whereas I feel MOBA viewership numbers will forever depend on how much the game is played. I don't think you'll ever hear someone say "I love to watch LoL but I don't really play it". However I hear this sentiment all the time with sc2. What is your experience with the genre? Is it only LoL? Because I think there's a lot of cases to make for at least DotA taking just as much skill as SC2, albeit a very different skillset. Being more fun and more addictive is of course up to each individual, however. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On August 10 2011 13:07 zz_ wrote: Of course not, but it seems from the beginning that was the only aspect you could see in those links. "Oh they are emotional. *Shrug* Skip." No, the point is that this is true esports - meaning that it gets people of all shapes and sizes really excited about it, and they care to watch it, as well as play it.But frankly, a game's potential as an esport isn't judged by how many emotional videos you can find. The OP seems to presume SC2 being in the lead of esports, something that I don't necessarily agree with, so I link BW examples. But if anything could continue the legacy of BW, it seems more likely that it's SC2 than MOBA, because SC2 and BW are a lot more similar. Thank you for the link in any case. I think the main problem with MOBA is that it puts more emphasis on breadth (endless options on the same tier), than on depth (fewer options but forming more complex decision trees). Maybe Dota2 could improve on that and make it a lot more watchable for casuals. I wouldn't mind that, go esports. | ||
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