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On August 11 2011 00:53 Rasky wrote:
Another protoss goes to up and down I hope Blizzard sees this I think it's time to nerf terran it's long over due anyways. They most likey won't because terran is the most popular race they way to keep the fans happy.
Blizzard wants sc2 to be a successful esports game. They will nerf everything that is making this game unfair.
- Tanks were imbalanced and blizzard nerfed them into the ground.
- Stim was imbalanced and blizzard made the upgrade time longer.
- Drops were to strong and blizzard nerfed medivac speed and gave some zerg and protoss buildings more hp.
- Reapers were imbalanced and blizzard nerfed them into the ground.
- Bunkers were too good so blizzard added more buildtime and added the 75% refund.
- Thors were too strong so blizzard gave them their energy back.
- Ghosts were too good so EMP now drains up to 100 energy instead of all available energy.
I am 100% sure that blizzard will look to this 1-1-1 problem. The problem is that there is not much nerf-room for terran:
- marines can't be nerfed, since they are the core unit in tvz (which is a pretty balanced mu atm)
- tanks can't be nerfed since they are already nerfed so hard. It would make them useless.
Sollution: a banshee nerf (buildtime and / or attack nerf).
About tvz: the blueflame hellions seems very strong now, but I am 100% sure that it's because people are not familiar with these blueflame strats. The boxer elevatorbuild is very strong, but it is also very weak at the same time (roachbusts hardcounter his build). Infestor + broodlord still seems too strong, but some people are claiming that this is not the case.
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United States2231 Posts
On August 11 2011 02:34 Kammalleri wrote:
A big problem is you scout Terran and all you see is 1 barrack and 1 gas.
That can mean marauder expand, reaper expand, vs those if you don't FE you die.
But it could be mean marine tank early push, if you expand, you die and if you went quick robo for observer you also die cause immortal are useless.
It could also mean Marine tank banshee early push(2 banshee 2 tank) If you expand and/or tech up and/or go for upgrades you die.
It could also mean a later marine tank banshee push, if you don't have +1 armor and charge or 2 colossus you die.
It could also mean marine tank banshee with a raven, if you don't force a PDD early which is really risky you die and if you made too many stalkers you die, but if he made 3 banshee and you don;t have 5 stalkers at least and avoid the PDD you die.
And after that it could also mean 2 marauder 2 ghost timing push, if you went immortal you die, if you went too sentry heavy you die, if you went too stalker heavy you die too.
State of PvT for the first 10-12 minutes is absolutely terrible. If the guy is retarded and don't do one of these strat you still have to deal with drops and Ghost vs Colossus and HT comp, which is more balanced.
Of course, best of all:
If he DOES one of those and fails to kill you, but at least takes out your natural expansion (or you didn't bother to make one in the first place) he is in a massive lead due to the fact that he can sit on your natural and you are pre-contained due to the nature of the terran race.
Protoss and Zerg don't have nearly the same variety or effectiveness with their early-game options vs Terran.
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On August 11 2011 02:31 Jermstuddog wrote:
Quite frankly, I'm afraid to see the kind of shit that Terran would come up with if they weren't already winning everything.
How can you say this when a common complaint regarding terrans is the huge amount of strategies they have and constantly use? Wouldn't this imply that terrans are the most versatile bunch of them all? Just watch the korean terrans play, anyone who says these guys arent smart and innovative simply does not understand Starcraft.
You call "from 4gate to blink stalkers" innovation yet describe terran bio play as "just mass marauders".
Zergs start to use infestors after heavy buffs from Blizzard -> Wow, zergs sure are innovative!
Terrans start using more BFH in their play -> Wow, took them a whole year to do this, terrans blow.
Am I supposed to take any of this seriously?
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The Terran graph make me say 'told you so'...
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On August 11 2011 02:34 Kammalleri wrote:
A big problem is you scout Terran and all you see is 1 barrack and 1 gas.
That can mean marauder expand, reaper expand, vs those if you don't FE you die.
But it could be mean marine tank early push, if you expand, you die and if you went quick robo for observer you also die cause immortal are useless.
It could also mean Marine tank banshee early push(2 banshee 2 tank) If you expand and/or tech up and/or go for upgrades you die.
It could also mean a later marine tank banshee push, if you don't have +1 armor and charge or 2 colossus you die.
It could also mean marine tank banshee with a raven, if you don't force a PDD early which is really risky you die and if you made too many stalkers you die, but if he made 3 banshee and you don;t have 5 stalkers at least and avoid the PDD you die.
And after that it could also mean 2 marauder 2 ghost timing push, if you went immortal you die, if you went too sentry heavy you die, if you went too stalker heavy you die too.
State of PvT for the first 10-12 minutes is absolutely terrible. If the guy is retarded and don't do one of these strat you still have to deal with drops and Ghost vs Colossus and HT comp, which is more balanced.
This is one of the major problems I have playing Protoss right now, getting good information on what my opponent is doing. It's easy if your opponent is dumb and just goes three rax all in every game. But with protoss, to get reliable scouting(which means seeing exactly what your opponent is doing), you need to expend a ton of gas. This locks Protoss into specific tech paths and really limits the options. Compared to terran's scan, which spends potential minerals and zerg, who could use overlord and lings to gather info, I feel protoss spends a lot more for around the same amount.
Players have figured out how to "feel out" their opponent with the stalker poke, unit counting and other subtle tells that let them guess what their opponent is doing. But these can be thwarted or the protoss can be mislead. As a design point(not balance) I do not like these sorts of mind games. All the races should be able to spend minerals to gather reliable information. If its an overlord, extra lings or sacking a mule for a scan, I think each race should have enough tools to gather information.
Mind you, I don't think everyone should have scan. If protoss had a way to reveal what buildings(but not units) their opponent had, it would likely be enough. Right now, I think the protoss has to spend a lot of gas(around 175-200) to get any solid information and it really limits what they can do safely.
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On August 11 2011 02:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 02:34 Kammalleri wrote:
A big problem is you scout Terran and all you see is 1 barrack and 1 gas.
That can mean marauder expand, reaper expand, vs those if you don't FE you die.
But it could be mean marine tank early push, if you expand, you die and if you went quick robo for observer you also die cause immortal are useless.
It could also mean Marine tank banshee early push(2 banshee 2 tank) If you expand and/or tech up and/or go for upgrades you die.
It could also mean a later marine tank banshee push, if you don't have +1 armor and charge or 2 colossus you die.
It could also mean marine tank banshee with a raven, if you don't force a PDD early which is really risky you die and if you made too many stalkers you die, but if he made 3 banshee and you don;t have 5 stalkers at least and avoid the PDD you die.
And after that it could also mean 2 marauder 2 ghost timing push, if you went immortal you die, if you went too sentry heavy you die, if you went too stalker heavy you die too.
State of PvT for the first 10-12 minutes is absolutely terrible. If the guy is retarded and don't do one of these strat you still have to deal with drops and Ghost vs Colossus and HT comp, which is more balanced. This is one of the major problems I have playing Protoss right now, getting good information on what my opponent is doing. It's easy if your opponent is dumb and just goes three rax all in every game. But with protoss, to get reliable scouting(which means seeing exactly what your opponent is doing), you need to expend a ton of gas. This locks Protoss into specific tech paths and really limits the options. Compared to terran's scan, which spends potential minerals and zerg, who could use overlord and lings to gather info, I feel protoss spends a lot more for around the same amount. Players have figured out how to "feel out" their opponent with the stalker poke, unit counting and other subtle tells that let them guess what their opponent is doing. But these can be thwarted or the protoss can be mislead. As a design point(not balance) I do not like these sorts of mind games. All the races should be able to spend minerals to gather reliable information. If its an overlord, extra lings or sacking a mule for a scan, I think each race should have enough tools to gather information. Mind you, I don't think everyone should have scan. If protoss had a way to reveal what buildings(but not units) their opponent had, it would likely be enough. Right now, I think the protoss has to spend a lot of gas(around 175-200) to get any solid information and it really limits what they can do safely.
Scouting the 1/1/1 should be no problem. I know that when I do the 1/1/1 all in. I feel like my opponent knows exactly what I am doing. The best response Ive seen so far is void rays, or simply immortal/stalker with good decision making (cut off reinforcements, force pre emptive siege).
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Protoss needs some t1/t2 unit with a bonus vs light.
The people who would say "phoenix" should go to use them vs marines and lings.
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On August 11 2011 05:00 3D.Hydra wrote:
Protoss needs some t1/t2 unit with a bonus vs light.
The people who would say "phoenix" should go to use them vs marines and lings.
I hope we get this unit from hots as the harrassment unit. It could be build from the gateway or twilight but requires twilight.
It would make that tech tree better because right now the twilight council is more of a stepping stone with some ups to get to templar tech
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As a Terran player:
Also, I should really 1/1/1 more. Void rays pwn it, fyi.
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On August 11 2011 02:46 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 00:53 Rasky wrote:
Another protoss goes to up and down I hope Blizzard sees this I think it's time to nerf terran it's long over due anyways. They most likey won't because terran is the most popular race they way to keep the fans happy. Blizzard wants sc2 to be a successful esports game. They will nerf everything that is making this game unfair. - Tanks were imbalanced and blizzard nerfed them into the ground. - Stim was imbalanced and blizzard made the upgrade time longer. - Drops were to strong and blizzard nerfed medivac speed and gave some zerg and protoss buildings more hp. - Reapers were imbalanced and blizzard nerfed them into the ground. - Bunkers were too good so blizzard added more buildtime and added the 75% refund. - Thors were too strong so blizzard gave them their energy back. - Ghosts were too good so EMP now drains up to 100 energy instead of all available energy. I am 100% sure that blizzard will look to this 1-1-1 problem. The problem is that there is not much nerf-room for terran: - marines can't be nerfed, since they are the core unit in tvz (which is a pretty balanced mu atm) - tanks can't be nerfed since they are already nerfed so hard. It would make them useless. Sollution: a banshee nerf (buildtime and / or attack nerf). About tvz: the blueflame hellions seems very strong now, but I am 100% sure that it's because people are not familiar with these blueflame strats. The boxer elevatorbuild is very strong, but it is also very weak at the same time (roachbusts hardcounter his build). Infestor + broodlord still seems too strong, but some people are claiming that this is not the case.
I disagree on the Marine part. Marine may be balanced in TvZ but terran has a lot of good early timing pushes available (in the GSL you see a LOT of those), and the core of all of them is the marine. Thus nerfing the Marine pre-shield hp like i suggested would "fix" a lot of those timing pushes while keeping the unit essential and good as always from min 10 onward after shield is researched. TvZ feel balanced but it's still usually terran favored, even for players like Nestea ZvT is their worst matchup.
A similar change would be like the old concussive shell nerf from free to research that absolutely destroyed protoss early on for little to no investment. Marauders are still good, they're just less abusive early on, like marine should be.
A Banshee nerf would surely fix the 1-1-1 pushes, but i feel that changing the marine would be more "safe" in the sense that so many early all-ins would be nerfed, especially against protoss (since it would make Immortal and Stalker significantly better against pre-shield Marines), not only the 1-1-1 and that would mean more versatility for the other races early on whereas terran always feel more "free" to do what it want with Bunker rushes, 1-1-1, 2 rax-3 rax mass marine etc...
My 2 cents as a spectator 
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On August 11 2011 02:47 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 02:31 Jermstuddog wrote:
Quite frankly, I'm afraid to see the kind of shit that Terran would come up with if they weren't already winning everything. How can you say this when a common complaint regarding terrans is the huge amount of strategies they have and constantly use? Wouldn't this imply that terrans are the most versatile bunch of them all? Just watch the korean terrans play, anyone who says these guys arent smart and innovative simply does not understand Starcraft. You call "from 4gate to blink stalkers" innovation yet describe terran bio play as "just mass marauders". Zergs start to use infestors after heavy buffs from Blizzard -> Wow, zergs sure are innovative! Terrans start using more BFH in their play -> Wow, took them a whole year to do this, terrans blow. Am I supposed to take any of this seriously?
qft
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On August 11 2011 02:47 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 02:31 Jermstuddog wrote:
Quite frankly, I'm afraid to see the kind of shit that Terran would come up with if they weren't already winning everything. How can you say this when a common complaint regarding terrans is the huge amount of strategies they have and constantly use? Wouldn't this imply that terrans are the most versatile bunch of them all? Just watch the korean terrans play, anyone who says these guys arent smart and innovative simply does not understand Starcraft. You call "from 4gate to blink stalkers" innovation yet describe terran bio play as "just mass marauders". Zergs start to use infestors after heavy buffs from Blizzard -> Wow, zergs sure are innovative! Terrans start using more BFH in their play -> Wow, took them a whole year to do this, terrans blow. Am I supposed to take any of this seriously?
The complaint about Terrans is that they have so many openings (most of them cheesy), not strategies. A strategy is a gameplan that incorporates expansion timings, tech switches, timing pushes, and so forth. The new Slayers TvZ build is an innovative stategy, because it incorporates all of these, and can also be done in a variety of ways.
Thing is, there is honestly not much innovation on the Terran side in TvP. Not much at all. Earlier Ghosts is the only thing that really stands out. There's no exploration of Mech, and not much exploration of air. Korean Terrans pretty much either all-in with 1/1/1 or play straightforward bio. They do it very well, but innovative it is not.
Compare to PvZ, where the matchup changes monthly, and new styles and unit compositions emerge constantly.
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United States2231 Posts
On August 11 2011 02:47 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 02:31 Jermstuddog wrote:
Quite frankly, I'm afraid to see the kind of shit that Terran would come up with if they weren't already winning everything. How can you say this when a common complaint regarding terrans is the huge amount of strategies they have and constantly use? Wouldn't this imply that terrans are the most versatile bunch of them all? Just watch the korean terrans play, anyone who says these guys arent smart and innovative simply does not understand Starcraft. You call "from 4gate to blink stalkers" innovation yet describe terran bio play as "just mass marauders". Zergs start to use infestors after heavy buffs from Blizzard -> Wow, zergs sure are innovative! Terrans start using more BFH in their play -> Wow, took them a whole year to do this, terrans blow. Am I supposed to take any of this seriously?
Variety != Innovation. Especially when all that variety has existed since day 1.
The biggest INNOVATION I've seen from Terrans is in the last few weeks going mech instead of marine/tank for TvT.
The other two Terran matches remain virtually unchanged besides a bit of tightening since release (more emphasis on early-game hellions in TvZ, but still transitions to the same ol' marine/tank push).
Meanwhile, the unit compositions, upgrade and expansion timings, and building placements have all radically changed for the other races in all 3 of their respective matchups.
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On August 11 2011 05:36 Gheizen64 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 02:46 Snowbear wrote:On August 11 2011 00:53 Rasky wrote:
Another protoss goes to up and down I hope Blizzard sees this I think it's time to nerf terran it's long over due anyways. They most likey won't because terran is the most popular race they way to keep the fans happy. Blizzard wants sc2 to be a successful esports game. They will nerf everything that is making this game unfair. - Tanks were imbalanced and blizzard nerfed them into the ground. - Stim was imbalanced and blizzard made the upgrade time longer. - Drops were to strong and blizzard nerfed medivac speed and gave some zerg and protoss buildings more hp. - Reapers were imbalanced and blizzard nerfed them into the ground. - Bunkers were too good so blizzard added more buildtime and added the 75% refund. - Thors were too strong so blizzard gave them their energy back. - Ghosts were too good so EMP now drains up to 100 energy instead of all available energy. I am 100% sure that blizzard will look to this 1-1-1 problem. The problem is that there is not much nerf-room for terran: - marines can't be nerfed, since they are the core unit in tvz (which is a pretty balanced mu atm) - tanks can't be nerfed since they are already nerfed so hard. It would make them useless. Sollution: a banshee nerf (buildtime and / or attack nerf). About tvz: the blueflame hellions seems very strong now, but I am 100% sure that it's because people are not familiar with these blueflame strats. The boxer elevatorbuild is very strong, but it is also very weak at the same time (roachbusts hardcounter his build). Infestor + broodlord still seems too strong, but some people are claiming that this is not the case. I disagree on the Marine part. Marine may be balanced in TvZ but terran has a lot of good early timing pushes available (in the GSL you see a LOT of those), and the core of all of them is the marine. Thus nerfing the Marine pre-shield hp like i suggested would "fix" a lot of those timing pushes while keeping the unit essential and good as always from min 10 onward after shield is researched. TvZ feel balanced but it's still usually terran favored, even for players like Nestea ZvT is their worst matchup. A similar change would be like the old concussive shell nerf from free to research that absolutely destroyed protoss early on for little to no investment. Marauders are still good, they're just less abusive early on, like marine should be. A Banshee nerf would surely fix the 1-1-1 pushes, but i feel that changing the marine would be more "safe" in the sense that so many early all-ins would be nerfed, especially against protoss (since it would make Immortal and Stalker significantly better against pre-shield Marines), not only the 1-1-1 and that would mean more versatility for the other races early on whereas terran always feel more "free" to do what it want with Bunker rushes, 1-1-1, 2 rax-3 rax mass marine etc... My 2 cents as a spectator
You mean giving marines 40 health and the shieldupgrade +15? Sounds like a good idea to me. It's a 100/100 investment, but is this enough to weaken the 1-1-1 push? I don't know... Requiring an ebay for the upgrade would also help ofcourse .
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So because there hasnt been a MASSIVE metagame shift in terran match-ups, terrans do not innovate? What the fuck?
First of all, I'm sure mech would be a big thing in TvP if Blizzard didn't actively discourage it. The tank nerf and the thor energy comeback both make it pretty clear that mech isn't supposed to be the big thing against toss. Why jam a square piece into a triangular hole? Are you telling me terrans should use inefficient unit combinations just to appear innovative? Bio has been tested and perfected over the year the game's been out. There's nothing inherently wrong in sticking with it.
Second: do you have any idea why ZvP changed so much in the first place? Well you probably guessed it - its because Blizzard buffed the infestor. Up to that point it was roach/hydra/corruptor vs deathball 99% of the time. Along game the infestor buff which made stuff like baneling drops and infestor/ling much more viable - and forced protoss to try different things as the deathball no longer was nearly as effective. Archons got some major buffs and are now being used more, innovation for you I guess?
ZvZ has changed - yeah, due to infestor. PvP has changed - yeah, due to warpgate nerf. There has been what you call "innovation" because Blizzard has encouraged it through nerfing and buffing certain things in the game. Terran hasn't really been forced to change their gamestyles through patching though, except the infestor change may prompt more ghost use in the future.
Now to take this whole mess and say that the other two races are more "innovative" makes no sense at all. Terran players are just as hard-working and innovative as any, and any time you generalize an entire race you only make an idiot out of yourself.
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On August 11 2011 06:20 Bagi wrote:
So because there hasnt been a MASSIVE metagame shift in terran match-ups, terrans do not innovate? What the fuck?
They do. However as in all things in life, necessity breeds the most innovation. Terrans have never truly been desperate in a MU as both P & Z have, at the point of trying absolutely everything up to battlecruiser rushing or somesuch. They would without a doubt innovate more if they ever actually had a poor winrate.
BTW baneling bombs killed the deathball, not the infestor. The infestor put the nails in the coffin because top players could avoid the bombs, but for everyone else it was the banelings that did it. Infestors are still only part of the answer to a deathball - banelings are also required.
And actually this tactic was better previously (more stun time which is the key) so the infestor buff/change had nothing to do with it at all.
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On August 11 2011 06:24 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 06:20 Bagi wrote:
So because there hasnt been a MASSIVE metagame shift in terran match-ups, terrans do not innovate? What the fuck?
They do. However as in all things in life, necessity breeds the most innovation. Terrans have never truly been desperate in a MU as both P & Z have, at the point of trying absolutely everything up to battlecruiser rushing or somesuch. They would without a doubt innovate more if they ever actually had a poor winrate. BTW baneling bombs killed the deathball, not the infestor. The infestor put the nails in the coffin because top players could avoid the bombs, but for everyone else it was the banelings that did it. Infestors are still only part of the answer to a deathball - banelings are also required. And actually this tactic was better previously (more stun time which is the key) so the infestor buff/change had nothing to do with it at all.
I guess terran stability can be attributed to them being the most "complete" race (Browder's words, not mine). If that makes terran players less resourceful in some peoples eyes, I can't help them.
And bling bombs were better, yet nobody besides maybe Morrow did it. Right. Its always easy to say stuff like this in retrospect.
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On August 11 2011 06:30 Bagi wrote:
I guess terran stability can be attributed to them being the most "complete" race (Browder's words, not mine). If that makes terran players less resourceful in some peoples eyes, I can't help them.
This is just a nice way of saying they don't need to innovate because the options are right in front of them, designed into the game. Which is how I think it pretty much is. Hopefully they can "complete" the other races more, and then everyone will be forced to innovate to gain an edge. ATM the other 2 races are being forced to come up with new stuff just to counter all the tools that Blizzard laid out for Terrans to use.
And bling bombs were better, yet nobody besides maybe Morrow did it. Right. Its always easy to say stuff like this in retrospect.
Protoss players knew the deathball was dead for a while despite people in LRs and whatnot whining about it, and it's because of what we experienced. People realised baneling splash is really good against clumped units even though they aren't light, and suddenly the deathball became a liability.
The infestor damage is useless - the shields just regenerate anyway. The locking in place is great though, but the patch actually made that worse so it was an innovation fair and square by Zergs.
You didn't see this so much in pro games because you don't see innovation in pro games - that happens in practice. In the pro games Protoss players just "mysteriously" stopped trying to make deathballs. Occasionally Morrow or someone shows why, but it's not like he invented the style or something.
Another recent example would be the near disappearance of the early (before 3base) colossus. You very rarely see pro games that actually show why for the same reason - the Toss knows it won't work, the other guy knows how to counter it now. But anyone who missed the metagame shifting will wonder what on earth happened to it.
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On August 11 2011 04:11 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 02:55 Plansix wrote:On August 11 2011 02:34 Kammalleri wrote:
A big problem is you scout Terran and all you see is 1 barrack and 1 gas.
That can mean marauder expand, reaper expand, vs those if you don't FE you die.
But it could be mean marine tank early push, if you expand, you die and if you went quick robo for observer you also die cause immortal are useless.
It could also mean Marine tank banshee early push(2 banshee 2 tank) If you expand and/or tech up and/or go for upgrades you die.
It could also mean a later marine tank banshee push, if you don't have +1 armor and charge or 2 colossus you die.
It could also mean marine tank banshee with a raven, if you don't force a PDD early which is really risky you die and if you made too many stalkers you die, but if he made 3 banshee and you don;t have 5 stalkers at least and avoid the PDD you die.
And after that it could also mean 2 marauder 2 ghost timing push, if you went immortal you die, if you went too sentry heavy you die, if you went too stalker heavy you die too.
State of PvT for the first 10-12 minutes is absolutely terrible. If the guy is retarded and don't do one of these strat you still have to deal with drops and Ghost vs Colossus and HT comp, which is more balanced. This is one of the major problems I have playing Protoss right now, getting good information on what my opponent is doing. It's easy if your opponent is dumb and just goes three rax all in every game. But with protoss, to get reliable scouting(which means seeing exactly what your opponent is doing), you need to expend a ton of gas. This locks Protoss into specific tech paths and really limits the options. Compared to terran's scan, which spends potential minerals and zerg, who could use overlord and lings to gather info, I feel protoss spends a lot more for around the same amount. Players have figured out how to "feel out" their opponent with the stalker poke, unit counting and other subtle tells that let them guess what their opponent is doing. But these can be thwarted or the protoss can be mislead. As a design point(not balance) I do not like these sorts of mind games. All the races should be able to spend minerals to gather reliable information. If its an overlord, extra lings or sacking a mule for a scan, I think each race should have enough tools to gather information. Mind you, I don't think everyone should have scan. If protoss had a way to reveal what buildings(but not units) their opponent had, it would likely be enough. Right now, I think the protoss has to spend a lot of gas(around 175-200) to get any solid information and it really limits what they can do safely. Scouting the 1/1/1 should be no problem. I know that when I do the 1/1/1 all in. I feel like my opponent knows exactly what I am doing. The best response Ive seen so far is void rays, or simply immortal/stalker with good decision making (cut off reinforcements, force pre emptive siege).
I think most important with the 1/1/1 is how do you differentiate between types of 1/1/1 and how do you differentiate from just a cloaked banshee into cc.
Remember the protoss will see the first building or two and then sees nothing until observer/phoenix. If the Terran gets cloak on the banshees and the protoss doesn't have robo tech, he loses. That's why void ray is not a great solution because the Terran can scan to scout (much earlier than observer/phoenix) and if he sees a stargate he can go the cloak route and destroy protoss that way.
If the Terran decides (either from scouting or on a whim) to get vikings instead of banshees (again this occurs before the protoss can scout so the toss is blind) stargate tech gets absolutely crushed.
The issue is the same Zerg used to have with scouting Terran all-ins except Protoss can't sack ovies or keep a reserve of larvae to pop out an instant army.
Here would be my solution:
Observer made at nexus, increase build time or cost a little as needed. Requires stargate or robo. At the very least Protoss could open something other than robo without instantly losing to cloaked banshees (and don't mention cannons because the tanks kill those from way far away and they are automatically available if you tech to banshee). The protoss could also make a robo and produce immortals a little faster while still getting an observer or two out.
To balance this the observer build time can be tweaked as any time spent making an early observer is time spent not making probes. They also take up population so having a ton of observers and essentially "map hacks" by a ton of them would be impractical because the maxed army would be low, they could be made to be 2 pop each if that became an issue.
This solution wouldn't really affect the lategame toss while making their openers a little more solid and versatile.
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Yep good summary of the 1-1-1. If 1-1-1 was actually just one exact build it wouldn't be a problem. Instead it's a horrible mutating beast that just becomes the counter to whatever you've done, and there's nothing you can do about that.
I'd prefer making cloak require a building - maybe armory or something new. Tech lab doesn't tell you diddly squat.
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EPT
