EPTonly good protoss players uses stargate so it is not going to affect much the lower level where protoss is doing fine.
[July] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 36
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
only good protoss players uses stargate so it is not going to affect much the lower level where protoss is doing fine. | ||
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pure_protoss
152 Posts
Then, he pushes and makes bunker outside my nat....cant leave my base forever if I let that happend...Therefore I go for an all in and got rapped (3/4 of my army) by his (now 4) tanks that are sieged before reaching the bunkers and marines....Then obviously loosing everything... My opinion: The problem about terran vs protoss isnt the 1-1-1 or the raven...It is the siege tank range and the marine dps...they should just nerf by 1 their dps or something...Then maybe reduce the life of bunkers... | ||
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HellGreen
Denmark1146 Posts
On August 11 2011 12:42 pure_protoss wrote: + Show Spoiler + well...I just played a game against terran (high master). I am a protoss on shattered temple and I scout him second (cross position). I see he is walling his entrance and that he already has his gas before his rax...I am expecting a 1-1-1 all in so I gas steal the terran. Then I scout him with my initial stalker to see a marauder...I then start to believe hes going for a 2rax aggression. Therefore I opt for a 3gate sentry zealot expand. Then I make a robo and an obs going for only 1stalker (inital one) mass zealot sentries. My obs gets to his base only to see the terran who decided to go for a 1-1-1 build into 4additional rax with 1 raven 2tanks 2hellions and mass marines (with only 1 marauders). + Show Spoiler + Then, he pushes and makes bunker outside my nat....cant leave my base forever if I let that happend...Therefore I go for an all in and got rapped (3/4 of my army) by his (now 4) tanks that are sieged before reaching the bunkers and marines....Then obviously loosing everything... My opinion: The problem about terran vs protoss isnt the 1-1-1 or the raven...It is the siege tank range and the marine dps...they should just nerf by 1 their dps or something...Then maybe reduce the life of bunkers... Let me ask one question though. Do you expect to do good/perfect with a composition of units made based on wrong assumptions (due to the mind games)? | ||
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pwadoc
271 Posts
On August 11 2011 12:57 HellGreen wrote: Let me ask one question though. Do you expect to do good/perfect with a composition of units made based on wrong assumptions (due to the mind games)? You can't really scout a terran, so it's all just a guessing game. You guess wrong, you lose. Not all of us have a spell that reveals a part of the map on command. | ||
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Kajarn
United States126 Posts
On August 11 2011 13:19 pwadoc wrote: You can't really scout a terran, so it's all just a guessing game. You guess wrong, you lose. Not all of us have a spell that reveals a part of the map on command. But you do have obvservers. Open 1 Gate 1 Robo FE and React! Otherwise don't complain if your at a build order disadvantage. Maybe Draw out the game and win with your overall superior play. | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
On August 11 2011 13:19 pwadoc wrote: Not all of us have a spell that reveals a part of the map on command. Hallucination. | ||
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KingFranX
Canada26 Posts
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quiet noise
599 Posts
On August 11 2011 13:35 KingFranX wrote: That graph just tells you that the games and win % fluctuates a lot. The only exception seems to be tvz where terran always seem to have the advantage... It also tells you that protoss is at an all-time low worse than any fluctiuation in sc2 history. 2 Protoss players made it to the round 16 in GSL. | ||
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peidongyang
Canada2084 Posts
Toss on the other hand has no money for army if they go continous probes. Then ofcrouse is the fact that nobody uses warp prisms because the second one arrives a bunch of vikings go pew pew, but if not, a wp dropping 4 hts in a big engagement=lulterranarmy | ||
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Rybaia
Italy213 Posts
So I was thinking, should the warp prism be moved to the stargate? The stargate will become the "arrassing unit" structure and this may help alot P player harass. You can warp a couple of Voids with phoenix and move a wp on another opponent base and start harassing multiple locations. Now to do that you need a Stargate and a Robotic and if you make wp you cannot make units like immortals, observers and Colossi. I don't know maybe it's a stupid idea but I think it might help a bit. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
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Wren
United States745 Posts
On August 11 2011 13:39 quiet noise wrote: It also tells you that protoss is at an all-time low worse than any fluctiuation in sc2 history. 2 Protoss players made it to the round 16 in GSL. No, Protoss is at their personal worst. They're winning overall at a rate better than 5 Zerg months. They're doing roughly as well against Terran as Zerg is (not good, but speaks to Terran being strong rather than Protoss being weak). Protoss is struggling against Zerg as well, but not any worse than Zerg has struggled against Protoss in the past. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
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BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
Conversely in korea protoss is the least played race, I really don't think that it has much to do with Protoss being weak as it does with more people coming up with good strategies as terran, which also has a more diverse tech path right now. Lets hope that in hots Zerg and Toss can change their playstyle the way a terran can. | ||
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Cornix
United States220 Posts
In terms of balance a build that can be done with high levels of success pretty much DEFINES the meta and the current gamestate balance. This is an RTS.. you do generally go for builds that give you good chances to win the game and the point of tinkering with and trying out new builds is to find builds even better that let you win even more. That's like saying 'Oh you should ignore the fact that some capture the flag scenarios in shooters don't work very well just because people are using that pesky rocket launcher and the flag room is small.' Or saying 'Oh you should ignore this fighting game character being imbalanced because he's got this one great combo that everyone is using.' Yes.. allowing for time for a new build to be adjusted to is nice, just to see if no one has found an answer yet.. but as far as balance concerns goes a build with a ~90% win rate at the highest levels of competition is definitely something to be concerned about and watched as an overall balance issue.. especially because more people will begin using it the longer it remains successful. So right now TvP is imbalanced BECAUSE of 1/1/1.. that doesn't mean we should 'ignore' the problem just because of 1/1/1.. it means we should watch it even more because of an unbalanced new build. I'm not trying to say that 1/1/1 is impossible to hold or will never be countered but given the current situation trying to take the stance of 'oh there's no problem with PvT balance because 1/1/1' is the opposite of a good idea. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On August 11 2011 16:47 BinxyBrown wrote: In korea the most skilled players play Terran, also in korea terran has the highest representation at top skill levels, their metagame will naturally progress faster than the other races because they have more people working on the same problems. Conversely in korea protoss is the least played race, I really don't think that it has much to do with Protoss being weak as it does with more people coming up with good strategies as terran, which also has a more diverse tech path right now. Lets hope that in hots Zerg and Toss can change their playstyle the way a terran can. Zerg is the least played race in Korean Masters and GM. Also, Terrans arguably innovate the least. Why would they if what they're doing works so well? Necessity has been the driving force behind Zerg and Protoss innovation, which is one of the reasons why PvZ changes so much. | ||
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LicH.
China235 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:35 Cornix wrote: The one thing I find hard to stomach in this thread is the repeated sentiment that apparently this data should be largely ignored in terms of balance entirely because 'That darn 1/1/1 build is messing it all up'. In terms of balance a build that can be done with high levels of success pretty much DEFINES the meta and the current gamestate balance. This is an RTS.. you do generally go for builds that give you good chances to win the game and the point of tinkering with and trying out new builds is to find builds even better that let you win even more. That's like saying 'Oh you should ignore the fact that some capture the flag scenarios in shooters don't work very well just because people are using that pesky rocket launcher and the flag room is small.' Or saying 'Oh you should ignore this fighting game character being imbalanced because he's got this one great combo that everyone is using.' Yes.. allowing for time for a new build to be adjusted to is nice, just to see if no one has found an answer yet.. but as far as balance concerns goes a build with a ~90% win rate at the highest levels of competition is definitely something to be concerned about and watched as an overall balance issue.. especially because more people will begin using it the longer it remains successful. So right now TvP is imbalanced BECAUSE of 1/1/1.. that doesn't mean we should 'ignore' the problem just because of 1/1/1.. it means we should watch it even more because of an unbalanced new build. I'm not trying to say that 1/1/1 is impossible to hold or will never be countered but given the current situation trying to take the stance of 'oh there's no problem with PvT balance because 1/1/1' is the opposite of a good idea. Dude, this is your 6th post. Did you seriously make a TL account just to cry about the 1-1-1 build that has literally been around since beta, but has been drummed up to be "new and unstoppable" by complete fucking noobs like yourself who watch one season of gsl and draw generalizations from it? Holy shit, I don't know if I can open these kinds of threads anymore cause of people like you. | ||
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Vardant
Czech Republic620 Posts
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BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:39 Toadvine wrote: Zerg is the least played race in Korean Masters and GM. Also, Terrans arguably innovate the least. Why would they if what they're doing works so well? Necessity has been the driving force behind Zerg and Protoss innovation, which is one of the reasons why PvZ changes so much. Not at the highest levels though, in GSL level play protoss is the least used race | ||
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Cornix
United States220 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:39 LicH. wrote: Dude, this is your 6th post. Did you seriously make a TL account just to cry about the 1-1-1 build that has literally been around since beta, but has been drummed up to be "new and unstoppable" by complete fucking noobs like yourself who watch one season of gsl and draw generalizations from it? Holy shit, I don't know if I can open these kinds of threads anymore cause of people like you. Post count should matter in conversation why? And since you only have just over 100 posts does that mean someone with more posts than you can blatantly rage and troll and flame about everything you say and justify it by having a bigger post count? Is it not possible to have a brain or legitimate points because I haven't posted much on TL? Also when did I ever call it unstoppable? My only point was to say that saying 'balance is fine if you just ignore this one thing that is causing a winrate imbalance' is a stupid thing to do, never once was there 'whine' or any direct comments about the build itself other than reiterating the 90%ish win rate the build has in professional tourney matches. Tl;dr read first, don't be elitist, and stop being so mad all the time please. | ||
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