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On August 11 2011 06:59 Yaotzin wrote:
Yep good summary of the 1-1-1. If 1-1-1 was actually just one exact build it wouldn't be a problem. Instead it's a horrible mutating beast that just becomes the counter to whatever you've done, and there's nothing you can do about that.
I'd prefer making cloak require a building - maybe armory or something new. Tech lab doesn't tell you diddly squat.
The big difference is that cloaked banshees are balanced and almost a necessary threat to keep Zergs honest.
The observer change would have minimal effect on PvZ (well it makes burrowed roaches invalid versus stargate but then again so do cannons).
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On August 11 2011 06:59 Yaotzin wrote:
Yep good summary of the 1-1-1. If 1-1-1 was actually just one exact build it wouldn't be a problem. Instead it's a horrible mutating beast that just becomes the counter to whatever you've done, and there's nothing you can do about that.
I'd prefer making cloak require a building - maybe armory or something new. Tech lab doesn't tell you diddly squat.
Tech lab doesn't tell you diddly squat? You can tell when they are researching from it... but of course the Terran might be getting a Raven with a fast energy upgrade...
The best player in the world is a Zerg right now. There needs to be more time for the meta game to develop to determine whether the game is currently imbalanced.
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On August 11 2011 07:04 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 06:59 Yaotzin wrote:
Yep good summary of the 1-1-1. If 1-1-1 was actually just one exact build it wouldn't be a problem. Instead it's a horrible mutating beast that just becomes the counter to whatever you've done, and there's nothing you can do about that.
I'd prefer making cloak require a building - maybe armory or something new. Tech lab doesn't tell you diddly squat. Tech lab doesn't tell you diddly squat? You can tell when they are researching from it... but of course the Terran might be getting a Raven with a fast energy upgrade... The best player in the world is a Zerg right now. There needs to be more time for the meta game to develop to determine whether the game is currently imbalanced.
If the protoss sees the tech lab already upgrading then he has made his choice because he already has a phoenix or observer (or gone hallucination I guess which would probably take longer as it needs to be after warpgate research).
The best player in the world was second in his group and may well be out in the Ro16.
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On August 11 2011 07:04 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 06:59 Yaotzin wrote:
Yep good summary of the 1-1-1. If 1-1-1 was actually just one exact build it wouldn't be a problem. Instead it's a horrible mutating beast that just becomes the counter to whatever you've done, and there's nothing you can do about that.
I'd prefer making cloak require a building - maybe armory or something new. Tech lab doesn't tell you diddly squat. Tech lab doesn't tell you diddly squat? You can tell when they are researching from it... but of course the Terran might be getting a Raven with a fast energy upgrade...
Or it could be Boxer researching Caduceus Reactor to fuck over someone like you who thinks a tech lab means diddly squat  Really, it doesn't mean anything. They can start cloak then scan your obs then cancel cloak and even move the starport and completely change their build.
The best player in the world is a Zerg right now. There needs to be more time for the meta game to develop to determine whether the game is currently imbalanced.
Terran has been dominant since release. It's been enough time. Protoss has been getting raped by Terran for 6 months. I agree PvZ is too early to say however.
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These graphs don't look like 50/50 across the board dustin!
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On August 11 2011 07:17 Zerker wrote:
These graphs don't look like 50/50 across the board dustin!
They also don't take skill into account and are only taken from the TLPD. The statistics Dustin boasted of supposedly did take skill into account and are of ladder results I believe.
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On August 11 2011 06:59 Yaotzin wrote:
Yep good summary of the 1-1-1. If 1-1-1 was actually just one exact build it wouldn't be a problem. Instead it's a horrible mutating beast that just becomes the counter to whatever you've done, and there's nothing you can do about that.
I'd prefer making cloak require a building - maybe armory or something new. Tech lab doesn't tell you diddly squat.
Have you seen MKP's marine push and hellion drop into 1/1/1 all-in a few minutes later? I thought there wasn't any way to make the build any nastier, and the Terran race has transcended my expectations yet again.
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On August 11 2011 00:28 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 00:05 Yaotzin wrote:
Banshees should get nerfed completely aside from the 1-1-1 issue (it would help tons there too though). Cloak, 2 shot workers, flying, good speed/general mobility, massive DPS (more DPS against a collosus than a viking what the flying fuck?). For the 1-1-1 banshees pulling a toss around is a big part of the problem of it, along with the fear of cloak.
Agree with post above - banshees are outstanding as harass yet are also pretty damned good as an army unit if the opponent shuts down the harass perfectly. That's bullshit.
It's not like the stats don't support nerfing Terran some more either. Still obviously the strongest race.
I think a good solid banshee nerf and maybe a timing tweak somewhere (warpgates, slower starport? dunno) would be enough of a bandaid until HotS throws everything up in the air. These results are from Tournaments not Ladder. And If you watch the Tourneys especially the Korean ones. They aren;t going the 1-1-1 all in that everyone is complaining about on ladder. Rather their winning straight up with MMMG.
That is an overgeneralization. They are going 1-1-1 sometimes.
+ Show Spoiler + Nada did it last night against Alicia on Terminus SE with SCVs merrily in tow. It did lead to an amusing base race.
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I think a nerf on banshee damage against armor units like stalkers would be nice. I mean banshee is a harassing unit only, don't make it too good against other defending units. Just good against workers, not against armor would be much better.
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Even though banshee DPS is crazy high (19.2) the problem is that if you nerf banshee DPS at all, then it'll have less DPS than the marine and terrans will be upset. =P They just have too much DPS on all their units, so lets help them out by lowering all of them =)
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On August 11 2011 07:19 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 07:17 Zerker wrote:
These graphs don't look like 50/50 across the board dustin! They also don't take skill into account and are only taken from the TLPD. The statistics Dustin boasted of supposedly did take skill into account and are of ladder results I believe.
i see, he rigged it to favor results he wanted to see >.<
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Well at least I won't be able to play anyways due to catholic school and 3 sports a year. Hopefully protoss's issues will be sorted out with HoTS, but I'd love to see some bandaids applied right now in the form of a slight buff to stalker damage, maybe 12 or 13 (+4). I'd be interested to see what type of unit DB intends to implement in HoTS.
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Making cloak harder to research is the simplest solution to 1-1-1. Right now, the P must spend 225-175 by default to avoid dying immediately if cloak shows up. You also need the gateways to hold off rax pressure. Making cloak require a fusion core (and then subsequently making it cheaper would probably be fair) would allow Protoss to open with 3 gates and a stargate if they scout a tech build. You could scout with the Phoenix and it would immediately shut down early banshee harass. Part of the problem is that the banshees harass but never actually die to the stalkers they force. Phoenix are the answer to that. Plus, have you seen this push if you lift all the tanks and have a couple other phoenix take out the banshees? It's hilarious. Your zealots and sentries can absolutely crush the marines.
I'm not worried about 1-1-1 long-term because cloak is so obviously the issue I think it will eventually get fixed.
PvZ is a much more difficult issue. Z have discovered that infestors dominate a deathball to a hilarious degree. Since that time, P have only been successful by developing a timing attack that works for a while and is eventually figured out (DT, 6 gate, +1/2 blink timings, stargate into robo, etc.). It's not sustainable, and eventually something will have to give, whether it's a revolution in P strategy or a change to the infestor. I would propose that either the entire infestor should be moved to Hive, along with a hydra health buff and making the hydra den the Hive requirement, or that neural parasite and pathogen glands would require a Hive to research. There's just something wrong with a T2 unit that can (1) cloak, (2) cast an AoE spell that also immobilizes a target, (3) can, in a group of 4, effectively one-shot a command center, and finally (4) can take over the core units of your army and kill you with them. When you write the description like that, how does it possibly make sense that this unit costs 100-150 and is available at the Lair?
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On August 11 2011 09:19 Bartimaues wrote:
Well at least I won't be able to play anyways due to catholic school and 3 sports a year. Hopefully protoss's issues will be sorted out with HoTS, but I'd love to see some bandaids applied right now in the form of a slight buff to stalker damage, maybe 12 or 13 (+4). I'd be interested to see what type of unit DB intends to implement in HoTS.
Can't buff stalker damage(maybe fire rate?), or else 7gate +2 blink becomes impossibly hard to stop against zerg. What you can do though is nerf banshees. I like banshees 2 shotting workers, and I feel that mechanic is fairly balanced, but when a 3/3/3 stalker still loses to a banshee, something needs to change. Probably a nerf to banshee damage against armoured is in order.
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hmm this is interesting, this disproves the thought that Protoss is the strongest race
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poor protoss 
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On August 11 2011 09:27 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 09:19 Bartimaues wrote:
Well at least I won't be able to play anyways due to catholic school and 3 sports a year. Hopefully protoss's issues will be sorted out with HoTS, but I'd love to see some bandaids applied right now in the form of a slight buff to stalker damage, maybe 12 or 13 (+4). I'd be interested to see what type of unit DB intends to implement in HoTS.
Can't buff stalker damage(maybe fire rate?), or else 7gate +2 blink becomes impossibly hard to stop against zerg. What you can do though is nerf banshees. I like banshees 2 shotting workers, and I feel that mechanic is fairly balanced, but when a 3/3/3 stalker still loses to a banshee, something needs to change. Probably a nerf to banshee damage against armoured is in order.
7gate +2 blink stalker only worked on crevasse thanks to the rich vespene geysir in your base.
If you attempt it on another map, it will be delayed, and can be easier blocked.
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France12904 Posts
On August 11 2011 07:24 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 06:59 Yaotzin wrote:
Yep good summary of the 1-1-1. If 1-1-1 was actually just one exact build it wouldn't be a problem. Instead it's a horrible mutating beast that just becomes the counter to whatever you've done, and there's nothing you can do about that.
I'd prefer making cloak require a building - maybe armory or something new. Tech lab doesn't tell you diddly squat. Have you seen MKP's marine push and hellion drop into 1/1/1 all-in a few minutes later? I thought there wasn't any way to make the build any nastier, and the Terran race has transcended my expectations yet again.
He does it only if the protoss is fast expanding...
And it shouldn't be that much of a problem
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wow pvz is attrocius, basically as bad as zvt used to be
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On August 11 2011 10:02 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 09:27 Amui wrote:On August 11 2011 09:19 Bartimaues wrote:
Well at least I won't be able to play anyways due to catholic school and 3 sports a year. Hopefully protoss's issues will be sorted out with HoTS, but I'd love to see some bandaids applied right now in the form of a slight buff to stalker damage, maybe 12 or 13 (+4). I'd be interested to see what type of unit DB intends to implement in HoTS.
Can't buff stalker damage(maybe fire rate?), or else 7gate +2 blink becomes impossibly hard to stop against zerg. What you can do though is nerf banshees. I like banshees 2 shotting workers, and I feel that mechanic is fairly balanced, but when a 3/3/3 stalker still loses to a banshee, something needs to change. Probably a nerf to banshee damage against armoured is in order. 7gate +2 blink stalker only worked on crevasse thanks to the rich vespene geysir in your base. If you attempt it on another map, it will be delayed, and can be easier blocked.
Actually it works on EVERY map that you can FFE on. On some maps terrain is more favourable, but my point still stands.
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EPT
