[July] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs

On August 07 2011 09:47 tuho12345 wrote:
Holy....Look at protoss win rate -____-

On August 07 2011 09:48 Virtue wrote:
What is everyone talking about TvZ.. Its currently at 51/48. TvP is the one that is messed up!

On August 07 2011 09:41 ZappaSC wrote:
Wow that looks crazy... what have the terrans learned since last month that i have completly missed? o.O

On August 07 2011 09:43 WarpMePlz wrote:
which leagues are these for?

On August 07 2011 09:41 ZappaSC wrote:
Wow that looks crazy... what have the terrans learned since last month that i have completly missed? o.O

On August 07 2011 09:46 isleyofthenorth wrote:
tvz has ALWAYS been in terrans favor lol. you can see that terran is just a more well rounded and well designed race

On August 07 2011 09:41 ZappaSC wrote:
Wow that looks crazy... what have the terrans learned since last month that i have completly missed? o.O

On August 07 2011 09:50 OrchidThief wrote:


The marine/tank/raven timing attack is really giving protoss some problems at least.

On August 07 2011 09:52 Zealot Lord wrote:


TLPD, team liquid pro gaming database. All the recorded tournament games.

Well do note that the GSL has much less games every month compared to the whole international scene, so some bad stretches by any race can make the win rates look pretty bad. Though I personally still value the korean graph despite its small sample size because it is undoubtedly the place with the highest level of skill.

yes that means that zergs looks waaaay better than they are because of nestea and losira

On August 07 2011 09:56 sickle wrote:
Protoss is just so overpowered.

On August 07 2011 09:51 zeru wrote:
Looks like the terran buff (new BFH icon) really made the difference.

Also korea has a ton of amazing terrans while they dont have that many good protoss. International graph which has a bigger sample size still looks quite good.

It's funny, I'm not as bothered as much by Protoss being weak as I am by people telling me how OP it is.

On August 07 2011 09:49 isleyofthenorth wrote:


lol but zerg was NEVER ahead in a WHOLE year. you dont you get that?

On August 07 2011 09:49 isleyofthenorth wrote:


lol but zerg was NEVER ahead in a WHOLE year. you dont you get that?

On August 07 2011 10:14 setzer wrote:
The PvZ statistics are the most surprising to me. Before the infestor buff I would have thought zergs were having a much more difficult time taking games off of protoss than those statistics show. It looks at though zerg was actually starting to equalize the matchup and then the infestor buff through it out of wack again. Did Blizzard react too fast in buffing zerg?

The Korean PvT isn't too startling. Protoss has always been the least represented race in Korea and outside of MC has had the least success. The Korean BW playstyles simply fits so much better with terran and zerg while I see protoss as more of a wc3 race, and Korea was never truly behind WC3. If this had Chinese statistics I'm sure the balance would be quite different.

On August 07 2011 10:06 Stress wrote:
Keep in mind the Protoss in Korea only have a few outstanding players, unlike the other 2 races, and the marine/tank/raven timing is ridiculously good. I also think that the longer games in TvP are decide by good EMPs, wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of change to it.

On August 07 2011 10:21 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss players have trouble because protoss players suck. I mean think about it, MC is the sole person to have made the statement "protoss is op". Now that MC has been out of korea for a while, people can't be influenced by his all mighty builds. An example is when MC DOMINATED july in pvz with the 6 gate build which then became popularized, then protoss was overpowered in zvp. But MC went on a break for a while, zergs learned how to use infestors, then zerg is now favored. Its simply because protoss players suck, not cuz toss sucks. 1 guy influences the whole chart fyi, like marineking's 2 rax build that favored terran in tvz by ALOT after the finals.

On August 07 2011 10:08 awesomoecalypse wrote:


They undoubtedly have some influence, but should they somehow be ignored because they're good. Should we ignore MC's results when evaluating Toss?

If a race's best player is capable of dominating the way Nestea does, then thats useful to know for balance purposes, because it means that at the very highest skill level we can at the very least say the race is not UP. Like, towards the end of Savior's peak he was really the only Zerg stomping everybody, but simply because he was kicking everyone's ass, no one would ever try to claim Zerg was UP in any way (until Bisu showed up, but thats a different story).

Protoss players have trouble because protoss players suck. I mean think about it, MC is the sole person to have made the statement "protoss is op". Now that MC has been out of korea for a while, people can't be influenced by his all mighty builds.

Whenever I watch MC play, he has INSTANT reaction to Terran drops and Baneling drops. That's ridiculously sharp. Whenever I watch other players, a lot of them do not even respond until the marines start shooting.

On August 07 2011 10:37 ZenithM wrote:


Exactly, his minimap awareness, reflexes and overall mechanics are just insane, you can't expect that level of play of all players, and if you honestly look at all the TvT between top terrans, they have actually a "human" reaction time to drops but it doesn't punish them as harshly as it does in PvT (well until BFH appeared anyway ;D).

I still think that protoss needs an active units for harass, we don't have drops, phoenix are ridiculously APM-intensive for how easy/hard they are to handle, DTs are kind of a one-trick poney. And I feel like there is a misconception that "terrans and zergs have better multitasking than protosses" but it's just that we don't have any units to multitask with, and people don't realize that defending drops, run-bys and multi-pronged attacks is actually much harder than to execute them. That's why MC vs Losira at MLG or MC vs Puma on Terminus at NASL were so impressive.

On August 07 2011 10:41 Namu wrote:
the 1-1-1 all-in really screwing protosses over it seems...
it's quite obvious that late game TvP is at least even, and favors toss on certain maps (like taldarim)
the imbalance stemming from TvP seems to be from the 1-1-1 all-in, but how would blizzard fix it, without affecting other scenarios?

seems like a game design flaw rather than a balance flaw...

On August 07 2011 10:41 Namu wrote:
the 1-1-1 all-in really screwing protosses over it seems...
it's quite obvious that late game TvP is at least even, and favors toss on certain maps (like taldarim)
the imbalance stemming from TvP seems to be from the 1-1-1 all-in, but how would blizzard fix it, without affecting other scenarios?

On August 07 2011 10:46 MCDayC wrote:
The korean results are skewed by the prevalence of 111 all ins, but still. Right now the metagame is really stacked against Protoss. Time for MC and Naniwa to show how it's done!

On August 07 2011 10:44 iamke55 wrote:

It's actually really easy to fix, and stems from the problem of Terran being far too versatile. There is absolutely no situation where Terran is completely screwed if banshees were removed, whereas any kind of force field nerf would make both Protoss matchups unwinnable.

On August 07 2011 10:46 akaname wrote:

easy fix. remove terran, insert Orc from War3!

On August 07 2011 10:46 MCDayC wrote:
The korean results are skewed by the prevalence of 111 all ins, but still. Right now the metagame is really stacked against Protoss. Time for MC and Naniwa to show how it's done!

On August 07 2011 10:44 iamke55 wrote:

It's actually really easy to fix, and stems from the problem of Terran being far too versatile. There is absolutely no situation where Terran is completely screwed if banshees were removed, whereas any kind of force field nerf would make both Protoss matchups unwinnable.

On August 07 2011 10:50 eXwOn wrote:

The same could be said about Dark templars being removed, and stim being nurfed. There's no situation where protoss would be screwed, but both Terran matchups would be unwinnable. It's probably in the game designs best interests for Terran to have a air to ground unit, it would be silly not too.


I would say this is just another shift in the metagame. Just look at February, Terran were in the same position as Protoss are right now.

On August 07 2011 10:50 eXwOn wrote:

The same could be said about Dark templars being removed, and stim being nurfed. There's no situation where protoss would be screwed, but both Terran matchups would be unwinnable. It's probably in the game designs best interests for Terran to have a air to ground unit, it would be silly not too.

On August 07 2011 09:41 ZappaSC wrote:
Wow that looks crazy... what have the terrans learned since last month that i have completly missed? o.O

On August 07 2011 10:20 EtohEtoh wrote:
more terran nerfs incoming?

On August 07 2011 10:55 Netsky wrote:


Can Terran even be nerfed any more? I think they have had more nerfs than Z and P combined.

I think it's more a case of P learning to play against new strategies rather than T being "op" or "imba".

On August 07 2011 10:59 Zephirdd wrote:
June: most balanced month ever.

July: most WTF month ever.

No balance patches happened in between.

Awesome.

On August 07 2011 10:59 Zephirdd wrote:
June: most balanced month ever.

July: most WTF month ever.

No balance patches happened in between.

Awesome.

On August 07 2011 11:01 WarrickHunt wrote:
these graphs although cool to see means nothing about balance or anything of the sort, as people get put against people the ladder system thinks will get them a 50% ratio, so better players from zerg for example may be playing and beating much worse toss its just the way the ladder works

On August 07 2011 09:59 Zealot Lord wrote:


This. The Korea TvP graph shouldn't look this bad if not for protoss players going something like 0-10 in the GSL up & down matches thanks to this all in lol.

On August 07 2011 10:44 iamke55 wrote:

It's actually really easy to fix, and stems from the problem of Terran being far too versatile. There is absolutely no situation where Terran is completely screwed if banshees were removed, whereas any kind of force field nerf would make both Protoss matchups unwinnable.

On August 07 2011 11:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

Id expect it to look better next month (unless some new allin is discovered), because Ps on ladder seem 10x better at dealing with 1-1-1 builds than they did 2-3 weeks ago.

Obviously this wont show up in statistics until next month, however.

On August 07 2011 11:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

Id expect it to look better next month (unless some new allin is discovered), because Ps on ladder seem 10x better at dealing with 1-1-1 builds than they did 2-3 weeks ago.

Obviously this wont show up in statistics until next month, however.

On August 07 2011 11:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

Id expect it to look better next month (unless some new allin is discovered), because Ps on ladder seem 10x better at dealing with 1-1-1 builds than they did 2-3 weeks ago.

Obviously this wont show up in statistics until next month, however.

On August 07 2011 10:59 Zephirdd wrote:
June: most balanced month ever.

July: most WTF month ever.

No balance patches happened in between.

Awesome.

On August 07 2011 11:32 -_- wrote:
I just hope infestors aren't nerfed. Destiny would lose his mind.

On August 07 2011 11:49 kemsley wrote:
Nerf Mules, Terran should only get them on Thursdays.

On August 07 2011 09:51 zeru wrote:
Looks like the terran buff (new BFH icon) really made the difference.

Also korea has a ton of amazing terrans while they dont have that many good protoss. International graph which has a bigger sample size still looks quite good.

On August 07 2011 11:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

Id expect it to look better next month (unless some new allin is discovered), because Ps on ladder seem 10x better at dealing with 1-1-1 builds than they did 2-3 weeks ago.

Obviously this wont show up in statistics until next month, however.

Which of course both our opinions are retardedly unsubstantiated which is why statistics do not matter, analysis from top players do. They can talk about why, or if, the strategy in tvp for example favours terran, not these graphs.

On August 07 2011 11:01 Amui wrote:


No balance patches happened, but people figured stuff out.

On August 07 2011 12:24 akalarry wrote:
i like how the winrates changed without any patch changes

that means people are learning and evolving. i dont think there should really be any changes for another month or so because maybe toss and zerg can learn and figure something out that will shift it back to even. give it time, one month isn't enough to start nerfing and buffing things.

On August 07 2011 12:44 carbonaceous wrote:
So does the international graph include MLG Anaheim which was at the end of July? The tournament where 3 SlayerS terrans, namely MMA, BoxeR and GanZi and of course the champion, MVP completely dominated the tournament?

That could explain the complete and utter TvZ dominance in the international graphs

On August 07 2011 12:30 skrzmark wrote:
They need Zealot to start with charge upgraded speed and I think toss would do decent.

On August 07 2011 12:41 AsianEcksDragon wrote:


I don't really think that's the case. It's more like which Terran strategy is fotm and how Zerg and Protoss blind counters it the next month.

On August 07 2011 12:50 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

Decent as in never losing another game to terran?

On August 07 2011 09:56 sickle wrote:
Protoss is just so overpowered.

On August 07 2011 12:54 darkness wrote:
It's hilarious because people still claim P is OP, while... you see it's not so OP there.
Someone once said if a race has 45% win rate = UP and 55% win rate = OP, can we officially claim something is imba now?

On August 07 2011 12:53 bonerificus wrote:



Why even respond to a comment that stupid? It's so clearly ridiculous.

On August 07 2011 12:54 HolyArrow wrote:


Indeed. The clear solution is obviously for Stalkers to start with Blink. :D

On August 07 2011 12:50 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

Decent as in never losing another game to terran?

On August 07 2011 12:51 Kovaz wrote:
I wouldn't put too much stock into the Korean protoss winrates. There's so few of them that it basically comes down to MC having a weak month and all of a sudden the winrate plummets. Watch, if MC goes deep in the next GSL, protoss is going to look so OP.

On August 07 2011 12:56 skrzmark wrote:


Hi, Jinro. I didn't mean the charge upgrade but the speed increase they get from upgrading charge. I dunno Zealots were so beastly in SCBW but in SC2 they're some joke (tank, instead of DPS).

On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift.

On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift.

On August 07 2011 12:58 HolyArrow wrote:


Jinro probably understood you. The thing is that even if Zealots started with Charge-level speed it would be pretty broken. You could mass Zealots and marines would be completely and utterly helpless - even with the Zealot's normal speed, kiting with marines early on is barely possible, and the Zealot still gets hits in.

On August 07 2011 12:30 skrzmark wrote:
They need Zealot to start with charge upgraded speed and I think toss would do decent.

On August 07 2011 13:00 skrzmark wrote:


Stalkers are too fast and Zealots end up being behind the stalkers instead of in front of where they're suppose to be even though they aren't faster than stalkers with the speed upgrade it keeps them up front more.

On August 07 2011 12:51 akalarry wrote:


so what was the strategy in may that zerg and toss blind countered last month?

On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift.

On August 07 2011 13:00 wolfe wrote:


That's a horrible idea. Think it out a bit more before suggesting something like that. You thought concussive marauders were bad? That was a tier 1.5 upgrade for a tier 1.5 unit. You're talking about giving a tier 1 unit a tier 2 upgrade.



This is where you need to improve. There is no reason why your zealots can't be infront of your stalkers right now. Learn to control them; better management or heaven forbid 2 control groups would help.

On August 07 2011 13:02 AsianEcksDragon wrote:


Nothing. They continued dropping because they stopped mixing it up. Remember, it takes awhile for a fotm strategy to catch on with the masses and they don't have to necessarily last a month.

On August 07 2011 13:04 MayorITC wrote:


That's funny.

Void Rays got nerfed like 3 times; two times cause Terrans complained
High Templars got nerfed cause Terrans complained.
Collossi got nerfed cause Z and T complained.

On August 07 2011 13:10 fraktoasters wrote:


and what was this collossus nerf?

On August 07 2011 09:53 TheAmazombie wrote:
Well, the jump in terran wins is probably directly associated with this new strong breed of terrans from both Korea (Slayers) and Europe (Strelok, Thorzain, BratOK, and others). I love these graphs, good to see.

On August 07 2011 13:12 DarkRise wrote:


Beta Colossus

Idk i think that the early ghost usage is so devastating atm. One EMP can just be a game breaker and it also make you feel safe against 6 gate pushes.

On August 07 2011 10:21 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss players have trouble because protoss players suck. I mean think about it, MC is the sole person to have made the statement "protoss is op". Now that MC has been out of korea for a while, people can't be influenced by his all mighty builds. An example is when MC DOMINATED july in pvz with the 6 gate build which then became popularized, then protoss was overpowered in zvp. But MC went on a break for a while, zergs learned how to use infestors, then zerg is now favored. Its simply because protoss players suck, not cuz toss sucks. 1 guy influences the whole chart fyi, like marineking's 2 rax build that favored terran in tvz by ALOT after the finals.

On August 07 2011 13:06 JoeSchmoe wrote:
VR all-ins have been extremely powerful in GSL. it's not done as much as 1/1/1 but whenever it's done terran usually loses.

On August 07 2011 13:08 skrzmark wrote:


Bane-drops more infestor usage, and roach-ling all-in became quite popular.

On August 07 2011 12:59 HolyArrow wrote:


Yeah, I wish that mindset was used when we got KA taken out of the game following a period of comparable Protoss dominance a while back... -_-;;

On August 07 2011 10:06 Stress wrote:
Keep in mind the Protoss in Korea only have a few outstanding players, unlike the other 2 races, and the marine/tank/raven timing is ridiculously good. I also think that the longer games in TvP are decide by good EMPs, wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of change to it.

On August 07 2011 13:23 babysimba wrote:


Regardless of balance, KA was just bad game design. It totally removes the need for positional awareness for toss. To some extent, warp-ins are the same. I believe this is what generates the hate for toss race, toss with no game sense can still do reasonably well. Just compare the skill level of toss vs zerg/terran in GSL, you can tell that playing toss doesn't really require a large skill set (you just need to be very good at certain stuffs). I hope HOTS can solve this issue though, making toss less of a "ball of army" race by giving them units with higher efficiency in low numbers.

On August 07 2011 13:23 babysimba wrote:


Regardless of balance, KA was just bad game design. It totally removes the need for positional awareness for toss. To some extent, warp-ins are the same. I believe this is what generates the hate for toss race, toss with no game sense can still do reasonably well. Just compare the skill level of toss vs zerg/terran in GSL, you can tell that playing toss doesn't really require a large skill set (you just need to be very good at certain stuffs). I hope HOTS can solve this issue though, making toss less of a "ball of army" race by giving them units with higher efficiency in low numbers.

On August 07 2011 13:23 babysimba wrote:


Regardless of balance, KA was just bad game design. It totally removes the need for positional awareness for toss. To some extent, warp-ins are the same. I believe this is what generates the hate for toss race, toss with no game sense can still do reasonably well. Just compare the skill level of toss vs zerg/terran in GSL, you can tell that playing toss doesn't really require a large skill set (you just need to be very good at certain stuffs). I hope HOTS can solve this issue though, making toss less of a "ball of army" race by giving them units with higher efficiency in low numbers.

On August 07 2011 13:23 babysimba wrote:


Regardless of balance, KA was just bad game design. It totally removes the need for positional awareness for toss. To some extent, warp-ins are the same. I believe this is what generates the hate for toss race, toss with no game sense can still do reasonably well. Just compare the skill level of toss vs zerg/terran in GSL, you can tell that playing toss doesn't really require a large skill set (you just need to be very good at certain stuffs). I hope HOTS can solve this issue though, making toss less of a "ball of army" race by giving them units with higher efficiency in low numbers.

On August 07 2011 13:23 babysimba wrote:


Regardless of balance, KA was just bad game design. It totally removes the need for positional awareness for toss. To some extent, warp-ins are the same. I believe this is what generates the hate for toss race, toss with no game sense can still do reasonably well. Just compare the skill level of toss vs zerg/terran in GSL, you can tell that playing toss doesn't really require a large skill set (you just need to be very good at certain stuffs). I hope HOTS can solve this issue though, making toss less of a "ball of army" race by giving them units with higher efficiency in low numbers.

On August 07 2011 13:21 AsianEcksDragon wrote:


I'm sorry. I was not aware that Terran could make banelings, infestors, roaches and lings.

On August 07 2011 13:04 MayorITC wrote:


That's funny.

High Templars got nerfed cause Terrans complained.

On August 07 2011 12:26 awesomoecalypse wrote:


Yeah cause pros are totally unbiased and always agree with each other, right?

On August 07 2011 13:32 Kammalleri wrote:
Terran early pushes vs Protoss are ridiculous. Ghost marine push, MTB, MTBR MTR. The last three pretty much looks the same until you get it in your face and they require completely different composition.

People complain because protoss are OP late game, but until 10-15 minutes you make a mistake you're dead.

On August 07 2011 13:34 Xxavi wrote:
In general though, when will people stop calling Protoss players shit? Does Idra need to change race and then whine about it? Or Bisu to come to SC2 and lose to some random Polt?

Remember, players like Rain, BitByBitPrime weren't Protoss. They got where they got not because of their skill, but Terran being so flexible with their strategies. They have a lot of units that could be genuinely good. Forget about the helions, they still have a lot of other units which will be further explored.

PS It's interesting that both Artosis and Idra played as Protoss (in their spare time?), yet besides the complaining, non of them switched. If the race is so OP, just switch it and destroy nerds everywhere. No, it turns out it isn't that easy. The only memorable product of that BS is the famous "the Artosis pylon" =)

On August 07 2011 13:35 Amui wrote:


Protoss are strong late game. They aren't OP until they get around 12+gates, 3 robos, 2 stargates, a huge bank to spend and are making 3 colossus 2 voids and warping in 30 supply a cycle.

On August 07 2011 13:32 Chargelot wrote:


That's funny.

High Templars got nerfed because Blizzard didn't want Protoss to be able to instantly kill anything in range of a pylon.

And really, you brought up the colossus? Something that hasn't changed since beta? I mean shit, I'm going to start complaining that Protoss players whined and my Concussive Shells now require an upgrade.

On August 07 2011 13:37 Dommk wrote:

KA got nerfed because Blizzard felt on Large maps it was too strong of a mechanic to warpin templars with energy, which is true, it made the race a lot more forgiving and was a step in the rigth direction.

But now you see mass ghost play pop up, when the Ghost count reaches 10+ Ghost it becomes near impossible to stop the Terran from EMP'ing your entire army.

And Zerg....as White-ra said it brilliantly yesterday "Infestors too strong [sic]" "one mistake and you lose game"



edit:

Reintroducing KA is a dumb idea though, that thing needed to go away. Instead maybe Infestors (And to a lesser extent, Ghosts), need their respective upgrade also removed?

On August 07 2011 13:35 Amui wrote:


Protoss are stronger late game. That's just a fact because otherwise we'd have shitty early, mid and late game. They aren't OP until they get around 12+gates, 3 robos, 2 stargates, a huge bank to spend and are making 3 colossus 2 voids and warping in 30 supply a cycle.

On August 07 2011 13:41 Dommk wrote:

..

How is that different from Terran producing MMM of 15Rax + 3Reactored Starports? Only advantage Protoss gets with warpins is the VERY first round, after that the production capacity is met by Terran.

On August 07 2011 13:23 babysimba wrote:


Regardless of balance, KA was just bad game design. It totally removes the need for positional awareness for toss. To some extent, warp-ins are the same. I believe this is what generates the hate for toss race, toss with no game sense can still do reasonably well. Just compare the skill level of toss vs zerg/terran in GSL, you can tell that playing toss doesn't really require a large skill set (you just need to be very good at certain stuffs). I hope HOTS can solve this issue though, making toss less of a "ball of army" race by giving them units with higher efficiency in low numbers.

On August 07 2011 13:18 Amui wrote:


Not really. If a terran suspects it's coming and is prepared(it's not THAT hard, there are pretty obvious tells, T walls, protoss takes double gas relatively early with decent amounts of chrono), they can sac 2 depots, rush a viking+tank if teching, or wait for stim, and be fine for the most part. Most of the times I see GSL terrans lose to this, they make panic errors such as having 4 marines queued up in a barracks, don't immediately start depots in safe zones, etc. Keep in mind this is a SUSPICION, and they are fine for the most part, and if scouted, has failed almost every time.

1/1/1 allin on the other hand, gets scouted most of the time, and protoss still lose a lot when it comes 2 minutes later.

They are 2 different kinds of allins. Both can kill unprepared players. Only one of them really kills prepared players with a high degree of success.

On August 07 2011 13:37 Dommk wrote:

KA got nerfed because Blizzard felt on Large maps it was too strong of a mechanic to warpin templars with energy, which is true, it made the race a lot more forgiving and was a step in the rigth direction.

But now you see mass ghost play pop up, when the Ghost count reaches 10+ Ghost it becomes near impossible to stop the Terran from EMP'ing your entire army.

And Zerg....as White-ra said it brilliantly yesterday "Infestors too strong [sic]" "one mistake and you lose game"



edit:

Reintroducing KA is a dumb idea though, that thing needed to go away. Instead maybe Infestors (And to a lesser extent, Ghosts), need their respective upgrade also removed?

It has been said many times that if you lose to EMPs, it has more to do with another problem with your play (like bad unit comp or macro) and less because of the EMPs that landed. How many times do you watch pro games that are literally engorged with thoughts and commentary of "BEAUTIFUL EMPS!" yet the Terran never outright gains the advantage from those battles

On August 07 2011 13:52 JoeSchmoe wrote:
but heads up VR all-ins beats 1/1/1 almost all the time.

On August 07 2011 14:25 babysimba wrote:
lol at the number of toss whining at my post. Tell me where exactly in my post did i say playing toss is easier OVERALL. I'm quite sure i only mentioned toss players in general being weak in positional awareness currently due to reliance of their race mechanics, though there are exceptions like sage.

To those who think toss is having a slump now is due to how the race is weak, but not the low caliber of toss players instead, do tell me which players are actually close to MC. His unit control, more importantly his game understanding. Who else plant down 2 stargates on 3 and make a tech switch at that timing of the game. Who else plant down 3 robos late game and tech switch between colo and immortal+hts. Who else uses warp prism speed or phoenixes to deal with mech and upgrade observer speed to deal with cloaked ghosts.
Majority of toss players (including pros) just copy his builds blindly without understanding what he's doing. For example, look at the number of players doing stargate play in PvZ. They don't even realise half of MC's stargate wins are actually coming from behind in the late game. He does it because he knows stargate is immune to early aggression, and he's good enough to take any lesser zergs in late game. Do continue have fun getting stomped by 2 base hydras before gateways kick in or getting swarmed by the economy of fast 3 bases. Yes to stargate play with zealots tempo based play, but not stargate followed up with stalker based 6 gate timing.

On August 07 2011 14:33 Dommk wrote:

Yes, because people like Puzzle, Naniwa, Sage, etc all have no idea what they are doing right? They all do Stargate openings, if you don't think they are trying to win then you have a screw lose. They out of everyone are the people who try the most to try win, so why always do an inferior strategy over and over if apparently it is terrible?

Koreans aren't idiots, they live in team houses with fellow team mates of every race, it is not like they are completely oblivious, there are reasons for doing what they do. Stop acting as if you have this grand knowledge of how Protoss works that some how these people haven't figured out

Comparing regular Protoss players to MC is like comparing people like Curious to NesTea. But even then, being as good as MC doesn't mean he can't lose to mediocre Zergs like in the GSTL

On August 07 2011 14:37 babysimba wrote:


Wrong examples to put out. Puzzle and naniwa weakest matchups are PvZ. Puzzle has personally admitted on his stream.

On August 07 2011 14:25 babysimba wrote:
lol at the number of toss whining at my post. Tell me where exactly in my post did i say playing toss is easier OVERALL. I'm quite sure i only mentioned toss players in general being weak in positional awareness currently due to reliance of their race mechanics, though there are exceptions like sage.

To those who think toss is having a slump now is due to how the race is weak, but not the low caliber of toss players instead, do tell me which players are actually close to MC. His unit control, more importantly his game understanding. Who else plant down 2 stargates on 3 and make a tech switch at that timing of the game. Who else plant down 3 robos late game and tech switch between colo and immortal+hts. Who else uses warp prism speed or phoenixes to deal with mech and upgrade observer speed to deal with cloaked ghosts.
Majority of toss players (including pros) just copy his builds blindly without understanding what he's doing. For example, look at the number of players doing stargate play in PvZ. They don't even realise half of MC's stargate wins are actually coming from behind in the late game. He does it because he knows stargate is immune to early aggression, and he's good enough to take any lesser zergs in late game. Do continue have fun getting stomped by 2 base hydras before gateways kick in or getting swarmed by the economy of fast 3 bases. Yes to stargate play with zealots tempo based play, but not stargate followed up with stalker based 6 gate timing.
Forgot to add: I haven't seen nestea lost a single game against stargate play, besides that 1 game against anypro where his OL scouted mass gateways and anypro canceled and go 2 stargates.

On August 07 2011 14:41 Dommk wrote:

Puzzle also never said it was his weakest, he said he just didn't know how to win against the mass infestor style of EU/NA Zergs

But then again, every top Protoss's "weakest" match up is PvZ right now. Name me one who has said it is their strongest match up. I dare you.

On August 07 2011 14:44 Jinivus wrote:

MC at NASL finals : "I think, vs zerg, me never lose."

On August 07 2011 14:14 Dommk wrote:


Do you mean games like MC vs Puma where Puma out right won games against MC when he was 30 food behind by landing 3 EMP's? When The ghost count gets high not only does it guarantee a shieldless Protoss but it also means that Templars are no longer a factor.

When was the last time you saw 10 Templars ever manage to toe to toe with 10 Ghosts? It just isn't possible, it makes them a complete deficit. The advantage that Terran gets is that a Templar less, Shieldless Protoss is vastly inferior to a Terran army.

To say "there's very little point in making even the few that the Terrans are making now" is absurd considering EVERY single Terran is going mass ghost lategame against Protoss. I don't think there needs to be a nerf to EMP at all, but just like Infestors the benefit of over making them shouldn't be soo strong

but I don't want to keep going on with this. TvP is relatively fine these days, it is just the 1/1/1 all-ins that have been crushing Protoss left and right, and there is very little Protoss can do, even if scouted

On August 07 2011 14:45 Dommk wrote:

A lot has changed since then. Especially since his latest interview he admits Protoss having problems to Zerg and he was going to show everyone how to do it, then promptly losses to a significantly worse Zerg in a macro game in the GSTL

You mean the ONE game where MC made an army (templar and archon) that was hard countered by EMP, then proceeded to clump everything?

Dommk been complaining abut protoss being too weak since that account was created, way way back in the LR threads

Even when protoss was owning everyone except the best of the best terrans.

On August 07 2011 14:37 babysimba wrote:


Wrong examples to put out. Puzzle and naniwa weakest matchups are PvZ. Puzzle has personally admitted on his stream.

On August 07 2011 15:32 nt-rAven wrote:
no he is not the only one in the world to be able to do that feedback easiest spell to use in the game or up there. but when u play a terran that snipes and uses scans late game or random sacraficial marine..... it gets tricky especially if the terran is innoventive and cloaks and nukes~ but thats not a problem in sc2 atm its more how thy get insta energy as they spawn, and even though they are trying to equate build time enforcer for ht since u can jsut warp them in with gateways, its not fair that is the protoss racial advantage the game has been structured to have protoss use warpgates they should alow the use of amulet and warpgate like they invisioned the game and work around it... and though the trend is infestors are so op, i still think hts are better then infestors especially when u consider the fact that insta feedback, storm and can turn into archons which can splash damage every single zerg unit with bonus damage and terran bio

On August 07 2011 15:32 nt-rAven wrote:
no he is not the only one in the world to be able to do that feedback easiest spell to use in the game or up there. but when u play a terran that snipes and uses scans late game or random sacraficial marine..... it gets tricky especially if the terran is innoventive and cloaks and nukes~ but thats not a problem in sc2 atm its more how thy get insta energy as they spawn, and even though they are trying to equate build time enforcer for ht since u can jsut warp them in with gateways, its not fair that is the protoss racial advantage the game has been structured to have protoss use warpgates they should alow the use of amulet and warpgate like they invisioned the game and work around it... and though the trend is infestors are so op, i still think hts are better then infestors especially when u consider the fact that insta feedback, storm and can turn into archons which can splash damage every single zerg unit with bonus damage and terran bio

On August 07 2011 15:48 Inori wrote:

FB: 9 Range
EMP: 13 Range

FB: single target
EMP: AoE

FB: expensive T3 tech unit
EMP: T1.5 unit

FB: HT very slow; not that hard to spot unit.
EMP: Ghost can cloak. Run speed is same as rest of the army, so gets hidden easly between MM ball.

you were saying?

On August 07 2011 15:44 nt-rAven wrote:
obviously you dont know much about other races if you think im saying protoss is op in that post

On August 07 2011 14:47 SafeAsCheese wrote:
Dommk been complaining abut protoss being too weak since that account was created, way way back in the LR threads

Even when protoss was owning everyone except the best of the best terrans.

On August 07 2011 15:52 Inori wrote:

Sorry, it's actually 12.
10 range + 2 from AoE. Please look into stuff before trying to make others look bad.

On August 07 2011 15:47 nt-rAven wrote:
feedback is so easy to use no offense you can spam it just get more hts then you are getting and spread them out across 4 control groups and u will have np......~ goodluck laddering

On August 07 2011 15:54 repEAT wrote:
Someone should re run these without MC, Nestea, and MVP. Should get a better feel for the average pro by removing the outliers.

On August 07 2011 15:57 Yew wrote:

Then Protoss would be doing even worse >_>

On August 07 2011 15:57 nt-rAven wrote:
yes i said feedback is one of the easiest spells to use expesically when you put it aside something like marine micro or marien splitting, it is one of the easiest things to do in the game and i am a protosss, just get obs in position, wait for the proper timing and go, it is really easy but then again back in the day people thought forcefeilds were hard to do..... get with the times!!! its called splitting your hts into different control groups lol wow its so fucking hard guys to press control button