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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
Agree with post above - banshees are outstanding as harass yet are also pretty damned good as an army unit if the opponent shuts down the harass perfectly. That's bullshit. It's not like the stats don't support nerfing Terran some more either. Still obviously the strongest race. I think a good solid banshee nerf and maybe a timing tweak somewhere (warpgates, slower starport? dunno) would be enough of a bandaid until HotS throws everything up in the air. | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong748 Posts
On August 11 2011 00:05 Yaotzin wrote: Banshees should get nerfed completely aside from the 1-1-1 issue (it would help tons there too though). Cloak, 2 shot workers, flying, good speed/general mobility, massive DPS (more DPS against a collosus than a viking what the flying fuck?). For the 1-1-1 banshees pulling a toss around is a big part of the problem of it, along with the fear of cloak. Agree with post above - banshees are outstanding as harass yet are also pretty damned good as an army unit if the opponent shuts down the harass perfectly. That's bullshit. It's not like the stats don't support nerfing Terran some more either. Still obviously the strongest race. I think a good solid banshee nerf and maybe a timing tweak somewhere (warpgates, slower starport? dunno) would be enough of a bandaid until HotS throws everything up in the air. I personally strongly believe stalkers just need a flat out buff to damage against air - it will help with a ton of their problems (not just banshee/mutas, but their inability to stop drops unless you have a lot of them, it really just takes way too many shots to kill medivacs/overlords). I think its a reasonable change, imho of course =) | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On August 11 2011 00:05 Yaotzin wrote: Banshees should get nerfed completely aside from the 1-1-1 issue (it would help tons there too though). Cloak, 2 shot workers, flying, good speed/general mobility, massive DPS (more DPS against a collosus than a viking what the flying fuck?). For the 1-1-1 banshees pulling a toss around is a big part of the problem of it, along with the fear of cloak. Agree with post above - banshees are outstanding as harass yet are also pretty damned good as an army unit if the opponent shuts down the harass perfectly. That's bullshit. It's not like the stats don't support nerfing Terran some more either. Still obviously the strongest race. I think a good solid banshee nerf and maybe a timing tweak somewhere (warpgates, slower starport? dunno) would be enough of a bandaid until HotS throws everything up in the air. These results are from Tournaments not Ladder. And If you watch the Tourneys especially the Korean ones. They aren;t going the 1-1-1 all in that everyone is complaining about on ladder. Rather their winning straight up with MMMG. | ||
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Skydancer
Italy249 Posts
That could counter better banshee, marine and would be better as harrassing unit... Vs Roach - Marauder we could use Immortal. (ok marauder > immortal but... we know...it's what we have) | ||
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pureability
United States137 Posts
On August 11 2011 00:05 Yaotzin wrote: Banshees should get nerfed completely aside from the 1-1-1 issue (it would help tons there too though). Cloak, 2 shot workers, flying, good speed/general mobility, massive DPS (more DPS against a collosus than a viking what the flying fuck?). For the 1-1-1 banshees pulling a toss around is a big part of the problem of it, along with the fear of cloak. Agree with post above - banshees are outstanding as harass yet are also pretty damned good as an army unit if the opponent shuts down the harass perfectly. That's bullshit. It's not like the stats don't support nerfing Terran some more either. Still obviously the strongest race. I think a good solid banshee nerf and maybe a timing tweak somewhere (warpgates, slower starport? dunno) would be enough of a bandaid until HotS throws everything up in the air. So its not ok for banshees to be able to harass and be in an army, but it is ok for DT's to be completely shutdown and then you can morph them into the best unit archon, And its ok for me to be EMP all your ht's, then you can morph them into the best unit archon. For fucks sake learn to play and stop QQ'ing | ||
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I)etox
1240 Posts
On August 11 2011 00:31 Skydancer wrote: What about shift the stalker bonux from armored to light? That could counter better banshee, marine and would be better as harrassing unit... Vs Roach - Marauder we could use Immortal. (ok marauder > immortal but... we know...it's what we have) are you joking? do you like having BFH hellion nightmares or what? | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
So its not ok for banshees to be able to harass and be in an army, but it is ok for DT's to be completely shutdown and then you can morph them into the best unit archon, And its ok for me to be EMP all your ht's, then you can morph them into the best unit archon. For fucks sake learn to play and stop QQ'ing why do you keep saying "the best unit Archon"? Archons are intentionally cost inefficienct precisely because they're recycled units--even with the range bonus, they're crappy on their own against anything but pure ling/bling, and the only composition they really work well with is Chargelots/Archon (and thats mainly because Chargelots only cost minerals and Archons primarily cost gas). Not saying they don't have a role, but if I'm listing Protoss units from "best" to "worst", Archons are a lot closer to the worst end of the spectrum than the best. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On August 11 2011 00:28 GinDo wrote: These results are from Tournaments not Ladder. And If you watch the Tourneys especially the Korean ones. They aren;t going the 1-1-1 all in that everyone is complaining about on ladder. Rather their winning straight up with MMMG. Uh, like half the Terran wins against Protoss in the current Code A/S have been due to some version of the 1/1/1... | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 11 2011 00:33 pureability wrote: So its not ok for banshees to be able to harass and be in an army, but it is ok for DT's to be completely shutdown and then you can morph them into the best unit archon 250/250 for an archon? No. That's a fucking shit deal. , And its ok for me to be EMP all your ht's, then you can morph them into the best unit archon. You *really* overrate archons. They're good, but nowhere near the best unit in the game. The best unit in the game is quite easily the marine. Nothing else even comes anywhere close. For fucks sake learn to play and stop QQ'ing Yeah all those Protoss players - every one of the best Protoss players in the entire world - should just learn to play against the dozens of Terrans who rape them. It couldn't possibly be a balance issue, never! Terran is fine, promise! Terrans trying to defend their blatant OPness is always so hilarious. | ||
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Rasky
United States406 Posts
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imareaver3
United States906 Posts
On August 11 2011 00:31 Skydancer wrote: What about shift the stalker bonux from armored to light? That could counter better banshee, marine and would be better as harrassing unit... Vs Roach - Marauder we could use Immortal. (ok marauder > immortal but... we know...it's what we have) That sounds to me like it would break PvZ early game--if stalkers were buffed to be cost-effective against lings, then how could Z really deal with fast stalker pressure, or especially 4-gate blink? They'll end up like last October's reapers, capable of kiting roaches/queens forever and killing lings cost-effectively. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 11 2011 00:53 Rasky wrote: Another protoss goes to up and down I hope Blizzard sees this I think it's time to nerf terran it's long over due anyways. They most likey won't because terran is the most popular race they way to keep the fans happy. To be fair, they nerfed Terran over and over until it hit ~50% winrate (along with buffing Zerg). They don't like drastic changes, but they have shown they want to get there. Now that things are way out of whack again I'm pretty sure they'll intervene to at least some degree. It would be cool if they gave them a real hard hit with the nerf hammer and dropped them to like 45% winrate. Aside from the hilarity of seeing Terran players experience what both Zerg and Protoss players have had to put up with, we might actually see them bother to innovate. Shame it won't happen  | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On August 11 2011 00:31 Skydancer wrote: What about shift the stalker bonux from armored to light? That could counter better banshee, marine and would be better as harrassing unit... Vs Roach - Marauder we could use Immortal. (ok marauder > immortal but... we know...it's what we have) I've thought about it too, but that would be a bit too game breaking. Hydras would really become completely useless, and we (Protoss players) would have a much easier time against nearly all terran units like marines, banshees, hellions, reaper, and even mutalisks against zerg. It's funny that the damage bonus for stalkers applies only to terran units that specifically counter the stalker, talk about good design :D (marauder, tank, thor) A buff to stalkers specifically against air though would be quite acceptable. Our only ground-to-air unit is barely cost efficient against mutalisk, and I would say cost inefficient against banshees. | ||
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Cyrak
Canada536 Posts
On August 11 2011 00:46 Toadvine wrote: Uh, like half the Terran wins against Protoss in the current Code A/S have been due to some version of the 1/1/1... That's this month, not last month. Last month's stats were based primarily off MMMG/Viking macro games. The 1-1-1 just popped up again this season. Wouldn't surprise me if the stats tank even worse this month. | ||
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darthfoley
United States8004 Posts
On August 11 2011 00:58 Yaotzin wrote: To be fair, they nerfed Terran over and over until it hit ~50% winrate (along with buffing Zerg). They don't like drastic changes, but they have shown they want to get there. Now that things are way out of whack again I'm pretty sure they'll intervene to at least some degree. It would be cool if they gave them a real hard hit with the nerf hammer and dropped them to like 45% winrate. Aside from the hilarity of seeing Terran players experience what both Zerg and Protoss players have had to put up with, we might actually see them bother to innovate. Shame it won't happen bother to innovate? Terran in general has had the most interesting unit compositions forever imo. You really fucking hate terran apparently | ||
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
On August 07 2011 16:16 Lncognit0 wrote: You should expect that Terran would always be ahead to a degree. Alike in Brood War, around the world Terran is the most played race. More people playing it turns into more innovation and more strategies. You only see a few of them at the top level because all the top Terrans figured out what is best to use. Zerg is just fine the way they are, Protoss may need balance help but even that can't be said for sure for at least a month or two when Protoss players have some time to come up with new strategies, unit comps, etc Uhh, maybe terran being most played race is related to it being the best performing race? The egg comes before the chicken you know. | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On August 11 2011 01:50 darthfoley wrote: bother to innovate? Terran in general has had the most interesting unit compositions forever imo. You really fucking hate terran apparently I hate the fact that they have the largest number of VIABLE units out of which they make these interesting compositions. But to the point, the problem with toss is that, as I someone said a few days ago, they have too many units that are jacks of all trades, but masters of none. This is terribly obvious looking at the stalker and void ray mostly, but going farther would include immortals, phoenixes, carriers, even sentries. The stalker and void ray both have the ability to attack ground or air, but they just have so little dps for how much they cost. For example, a void ray, that is uncharged but attacking a unit that is both massive and armored has a DPS of 20. A banshee costs a little over half that of a void ray, but has a DPS of 19.2, AGAINST EVERYTHING. Now you may argue that being able to shoot air makes up for all of this. Let's look at the stalker. Stalkers have less DPS than a marine. .......Wait these both shoot air and ground... Nvm I changed my mind about the jack of all trades stuff. Toss units just have bad dps for their cost. All that toss gets for paying so much for their units is more beef, but the other races can just make more of their units with same amount of money, and then they have the same overall hp, but 3 times the DPS. That is why tosses are losing in the early game before they get out AOE damage. Their units are just the least cost effective. And actually this is why the toss can only sit in a death ball. Because they have a bunch of meat shield gateway units that do no DPS, protecting damage dealing units like HTs and colossi. The complete design of toss was set up to be too one dimensional, and now that people realize this, tosses are falling left and right. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On August 11 2011 01:50 darthfoley wrote: bother to innovate? Terran in general has had the most interesting unit compositions forever imo. You really fucking hate terran apparently You do realize that the entire reason for the massive change in ZvT win rates right now is due to Terrans finally discovering the Blue Flame Hellion right? You know... a unit that has been untouched since release? A unit that has been said to be ridiculously good over and over if only Terrans would actually make them? A unit that has been sitting there all-along, but has been consistantly ignored in favor of the same old standard unit comps Terrans have been using since beta. Yes, Terran players could use some innovation in general. Zerg and Protoss have both evolved massively over the course of this past year. Unfortunately, Protoss got a giant reset of their game-knowledge by moving back the critical warpgate tech. Still, you've seen everything from 4-gate to +1 7-gate blink stalkers come out of Protoss, to mass forge-upgrade gateway units. And Zerg has tried everything from 1 base bling busts to 3-hatch muta, to infestorling. Both of these races have been pushed by the fact that their units can very easily be deemed 'ineffective' with something so simple as better building placement. Terran is still doing the mass Marauder bio ball I saw back in Beta. Terran is still floating off their Factory to die in every TvP. Terran is still doing mass marines in TvZ. Terran took a full YEAR to try out blue-flame hellions + marine drops. Terran STILL doesn't make ghosts in 90% of the games that they should. In all honesty, the past few weeks should show anybody that the state of the game is quite ridiculous. All races have unexplored avenues still, sure. But Zerg and Protoss have exhausted many avenues because they have been actively searching for a dominant game plan and neither race has been able to adequately keep up with the pace that Terran has been setting with the same-old-strategies. Quite frankly, I'm afraid to see the kind of shit that Terran would come up with if they weren't already winning everything. | ||
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Kammalleri
Canada613 Posts
That can mean marauder expand, reaper expand, vs those if you don't FE you die. But it could be mean marine tank early push, if you expand, you die and if you went quick robo for observer you also die cause immortal are useless. It could also mean Marine tank banshee early push(2 banshee 2 tank) If you expand and/or tech up and/or go for upgrades you die. It could also mean a later marine tank banshee push, if you don't have +1 armor and charge or 2 colossus you die. It could also mean marine tank banshee with a raven, if you don't force a PDD early which is really risky you die and if you made too many stalkers you die, but if he made 3 banshee and you don;t have 5 stalkers at least and avoid the PDD you die. And after that it could also mean 2 marauder 2 ghost timing push, if you went immortal you die, if you went too sentry heavy you die, if you went too stalker heavy you die too. State of PvT for the first 10-12 minutes is absolutely terrible. If the guy is retarded and don't do one of these strat you still have to deal with drops and Ghost vs Colossus and HT comp, which is more balanced. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On August 11 2011 01:50 darthfoley wrote: bother to innovate? Terran in general has had the most interesting unit compositions forever imo. You really fucking hate terran apparently I'm really curious whenever this is brought up. Can you elaborate upon how exactly TvP has evolved in particular? Because when I watch a TvP nowadays, it's pretty much exactly the same as it was 6 or 9 months ago, just executed better. Only real significant change is Terrans getting Ghosts earlier. | ||
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