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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
toss got all the buffs what buffs have Toss gotten? An Archon buff. A Sentry build time buff that we only got because it came hand in hand with a major warp gate nerf. A Phoenix build time buff. *Every* other change to Toss has been a nerf, everything from massively scaling down VR damage, to removing KA, to nerfing the shit out of warp gate timings. So, in other words, you have no idea what you're talking about, or you're trolling. | ||
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quiet noise
599 Posts
On August 10 2011 20:50 paradisefar wrote: sick of the balance talk from looking at top level game stats sick of balance talk from looking at some 30-50 games each month in korean top level games and statistically, toss players are much whinier than other races, much more reactive to any "signs" of their up'ness, and thus toss got all the buffs and still don't quit on it. toss are just spoiled badly by blizzard. if u are not a pro level player, plz stop whining at the pro level stats, millions of other non-pro players need to enjoy this game. while u are whining, toss is still the most played race from gold to master(http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all) well, maybe blizzard should make toss less of a a-move race, so that people would stop saying it has lowest skill cap, and thus more pro actually play this race. woah are you fucking serious? Zerg is the race that recieved the most buffs recently and protoss has been nerfed to the ground since the early beta. Also, toss requires the most amount of micro. The only race that can actually get to a somewhat decent level through A-moving is Zerg. Everything you said about protoss is basicly the truth about Zerg. Even the statistics you provided points at Zerg having better succes on the ladder than protoss. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On August 10 2011 20:50 paradisefar wrote: sick of the balance talk from looking at top level game stats sick of balance talk from looking at some 30-50 games each month in korean top level games and statistically, toss players are much whinier than other races, much more reactive to any "signs" of their up'ness, and thus toss got all the buffs and still don't quit on it. toss are just spoiled badly by blizzard. if u are not a pro level player, plz stop whining at the pro level stats, millions of other non-pro players need to enjoy this game. while u are whining, toss is still the most played race from gold to master(http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all) well, maybe blizzard should make toss less of a a-move race, so that people would stop saying it has lowest skill cap, and thus more pro actually play this race. Wow, we're really heading into some weird twilight zone here. First we had posters being wrong about statistical data that anyone can check on TLPD or sc2ranks. Now, they're even starting to link to information that disproves their statements themselves. I really can't find any explanation for this, other than the above poster being some kind of weird troll. That aside, (spoiler for tonight's Code S)+ Show Spoiler + the trend continues with tonight's Code S. Nada doing a pretty bad 1/1/1 on cross position Terminus and winning anyway. | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
People slowly learn how to abuse protoss weakness' hard, ZvP went to the point were every potential aggression by protoss was nerfed into the ground, because zergs were just plain bad players that didn't know how to play. And now they can safely secure 3 base drone up to 75 drones without any fear and roll protoss over without any micro / multitask, they just flood units. And people still complain about OP protoss / easy race. | ||
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Shalaiyn
Netherlands2735 Posts
On August 10 2011 21:10 Toadvine wrote: Wow, we're really heading into some weird twilight zone here. First we had posters being wrong about statistical data that anyone can check on TLPD or sc2ranks. Now, they're even starting to link to information that disproves their statements themselves. I really can't find any explanation for this, other than the above poster being some kind of weird troll. That aside, (spoiler for tonight's Code S)+ Show Spoiler + the trend continues with tonight's Code S. Nada doing a pretty bad 1/1/1 on cross position Terminus and winning anyway. + Show Spoiler + Alicia | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
The part I find most interesting is that the Terran domination of SC2 continues a full year after release with no signs of letting up... It would seem Terrans have already had their slump, and are now back on the rise, from what was already a dominant position. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I'm not even sure about that. The only questionable decision he made was not engaging the push directly, and I'm really not sure how well that would've done. Chargelots against Tanks, Bunkers and Banshees in a tight space really isn't very good. His best shot was probably skipping the DTs, and engaging Nada before he got to that choke with his entire army. Still, Nada really didn't play well that game either. The decision to use that build on cross-position Terminus was pretty bad, and then his execution and timing was quite poor imo. At least he didn't forget Siege Mode I suppose. | ||
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peidongyang
Canada2084 Posts
Winning all the games while playing bad. I wanna be the font page of, TeamLiquid News, But I lose to all those terran noobs.... And every time I close my eyes, I EMP those toss goodbye, A different cheese, every time, oh I, I swear, My golden mouse would be here, if I were a terran Player!!! Yeah I would have a show on stream, I would be the interest of, all the pro teams, So no play this game on min. I'd probably pull an MMA or Allin, And kill own CC and still gonna win Give away a few coaching lessons like noobies learn this Achieve 99% win-rate and stay in forever bliss Its been a few months since people called me OP But infestors are still imba, no free win fo me, Have stim pack before, and I still have it 1a and t, its my favourate habit, Yeah can’t forget about me stupid Everywhere I go marauders pwn u noobiz. And every time I close my eyes, I EMP those toss goodbye, A different cheese, every time, oh I, I swear, My golden mouse would be here, if I were a terran Player!!! I'll be playing like the President 'EMPing without prescidence Then I'll compliment myself about my gosu micro skills, Studder step is so hard, man this sh*t kills, Keep the noobs, and the protoss all in my bracket, And all the OP terrans, keep them seperate, Broods are IMBA too so let me take a crack at it, But ghosts got snipe so now the zergs are back thinking bout it, When I'm really behind and fed up Economy behind, all my bases are eff'd up Not a single toss or zerg would know who screwed all was Call a bunch of mules down, mow them to bits I know we all have a similar dreams Tell your hands u play terran, And put it in the air and sing: And every time I close my eyes, I EMP those toss goodbye, A different cheese, every time, oh I, I swear, My golden mouse would be here, if I were a terran Player!!! FUCK TERRAN OP!!! (end rage here) | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
On August 10 2011 21:22 Jermstuddog wrote: Why are people pointing fingers back and forth at Zerg and Protoss for being more UP/OP? The part I find most interesting is that the Terran domination of SC2 continues a full year after release with no signs of letting up... It would seem Terrans have already had their slump, and are now back on the rise, from what was already a dominant position. because Protoss players, are waiting an apology from zergs and especially Idra. Zerg were calling protoss a OP/easy race, while they were being raped by terrans (and still are). Protoss got nerfed HARD, maps are now bigger and more wide open. I think that is way protoss players hate zergs more than terrans | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + fuu, every protoss lost again. They made some obvious errors though, and those errors can be so unforgiving. t.t | ||
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quiet noise
599 Posts
On August 10 2011 21:22 Jermstuddog wrote: Why are people pointing fingers back and forth at Zerg and Protoss for being more UP/OP? The part I find most interesting is that the Terran domination of SC2 continues a full year after release with no signs of letting up... It would seem Terrans have already had their slump, and are now back on the rise, from what was already a dominant position. You want to know the truth? ill give you the truth. David Kim (who plays terran) secretly controls blizzards balance team and his plan is to keep Zerg and Protoss players divided to divert attention from the fact that Terran, his favourite race is imba. he does this by maintaining this ongoing harsch community balance war concerning ZvP. He keeps this going on by paying popular community members and top players to fuel this war by making ridiculous statements about balance, and DK arranges live-streamed balance discussions between those Z and P "players" on prime air time (Inside the game anyone?) just to divert attention from the T dominance! you see, this is why Boxer refered to Idra as Grack. Grack is actually idras REAL name, and boxer knows this. Grack is a clone of John Lennon created by David Kim to be the big player who provokes fourth this war between P and Z. Greg Fields is a fake identity crafted and given by DK to Grack in exchange for his loyalty and as a coverup for his true identity. David Kim also controlls GOMtv and many popular comminuty figures like Artosis (explains the imbalanced show), Incontrol, Cruncher (his beef with grack was all a setup to fuel the bad blood between toss and zerg), Translator John, Painuser, DjWeat, Destiny (hired to troll protoss players with stupid cheese builds) and the list goes on for long. If you want another example on how DK manipulates the SC2 community just look at todays Code A games. You think it was just a coincidence that all 4 foreigner players played against korean Zerg players, on Zerg favored maps? hell no. DK figured many foreigner seem to think that korean protoss players are just bad and that some european ones like naniwa could do better. What did he do? He sent the two best european protoss players to korea and had them get crushed by no-name zergs to fuell the balance war, as well as the Koreans vs Foreigners topic wich is ALSO a divertion from the fact that terran is imbalanced and secretly controls the world of Starcraft 2. Its time we RISE against this evil man, but as long as we protoss and Zerg players are divided its NEVER going to happen. Therefor, we must lay down our weapons, stop fighting each others for once and look at our common enemy who has dominated us and taunted us against each others since the begining of live! + Show Spoiler +  | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On August 10 2011 22:02 quiet noise wrote: You want to know the truth? ill give you the truth. David Kim (who plays terran) secretly controls blizzards balance team and his plan is to keep Zerg and Protoss divided to divert attention from the fact that Terran, his favourite race is imba. he does this by maintaining this ongoing harsch community balance war concerning ZvP. He keeps this going on by paying popular community members and top players to fuel this war by making ridiculous statements about balance, and DK arranges live-streamed balance discussions between those Z and P "players" on prime air time (Inside the game anyone?) just to divert attention from the T dominance! you see, this is why Boxer refered to Idra as Grack. Grack is actually idras REAL name, and boxer knows this. Grack is a clone of John Lennon created by David Kim to be the big player who provokes fourth this war between P and Z. Greg Fields is a fake identity crafted and given by DK to Grack in exchange for his loyalty and as a coverup for his true identity. David Kim also controlls GOMtv and many popular comminuty figures like Artosis (explains the imbalanced show), Incontrol, Cruncher (his beef with grack was all a setup to fuel the bad blood between toss and zerg), Translator John, Painuser, DjWeat, Destiny (hired to troll protoss players with stupid cheese builds) and the list goes on for long. If you want another example on how DK manipulates the SC2 community just look at todays Code A games. You think it was just a coincidence that all 4 foreigner players played against korean Zerg players, on Zerg favored maps? hell no. DK figured many foreigner seem to think that korean protoss players are just bad and that some european ones like naniwa could do better. What did he do? He sent the two best european protoss players to korea and had them get crushed by no-name zergs to fuell the balance war, as well as the Koreans vs Foreigners topic wich is ALSO a divertion from the fact that terran is imbalanced and secretly controls the world of Starcraft 2. Its time we RISE against this evil man, but as long as we protoss and Zergs are divided its NEVER going to happen. Therefor, we must lay down our weapons, stop fighting each others for once and look at our common enemy who has dominated us and taunted us against each others since the begining of live! + Show Spoiler + I think that was supposed to be funny. Personally, I feel like Protoss has got stale. They don't have any tech paths which remain completely unexplored in any match-ups (like Terran had BHFs, Zerg had Infestors etc), and before people put out inane things like Warp Prisms or Carriers, neither of those solve any of the problems Protoss is facing. I could be wrong. But until some Bisu of SC2 comes up with a new style of play for PvX, Protoss is going to continue doing badly. | ||
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quiet noise
599 Posts
On August 10 2011 22:10 SeaSwift wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 10 2011 22:02 quiet noise wrote: You want to know the truth? ill give you the truth. David Kim (who plays terran) secretly controls blizzards balance team and his plan is to keep Zerg and Protoss divided to divert attention from the fact that Terran, his favourite race is imba. he does this by maintaining this ongoing harsch community balance war concerning ZvP. He keeps this going on by paying popular community members and top players to fuel this war by making ridiculous statements about balance, and DK arranges live-streamed balance discussions between those Z and P "players" on prime air time (Inside the game anyone?) just to divert attention from the T dominance! you see, this is why Boxer refered to Idra as Grack. Grack is actually idras REAL name, and boxer knows this. Grack is a clone of John Lennon created by David Kim to be the big player who provokes fourth this war between P and Z. Greg Fields is a fake identity crafted and given by DK to Grack in exchange for his loyalty and as a coverup for his true identity. David Kim also controlls GOMtv and many popular comminuty figures like Artosis (explains the imbalanced show), Incontrol, Cruncher (his beef with grack was all a setup to fuel the bad blood between toss and zerg), Translator John, Painuser, DjWeat, Destiny (hired to troll protoss players with stupid cheese builds) and the list goes on for long. If you want another example on how DK manipulates the SC2 community just look at todays Code A games. You think it was just a coincidence that all 4 foreigner players played against korean Zerg players, on Zerg favored maps? hell no. DK figured many foreigner seem to think that korean protoss players are just bad and that some european ones like naniwa could do better. What did he do? He sent the two best european protoss players to korea and had them get crushed by no-name zergs to fuell the balance war, as well as the Koreans vs Foreigners topic wich is ALSO a divertion from the fact that terran is imbalanced and secretly controls the world of Starcraft 2. Its time we RISE against this evil man, but as long as we protoss and Zergs are divided its NEVER going to happen. Therefor, we must lay down our weapons, stop fighting each others for once and look at our common enemy who has dominated us and taunted us against each others since the begining of live! + Show Spoiler + I think that was supposed to be funny. Nah, its a condition called being extremely bored at work. the symptoms are that you have to write lots of long stupid messages at video game forums, to make the time pass by a little faster. | ||
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Gheizen64
Italy2077 Posts
That would be a nerf to Terran, but especially a buff to early-game protoss since it would make Stalker a bit better against all early game marine pushes (4 instead of 5 attacks, marine die 20% faster) and Immortal significantly better (2 instead of 3 attacks, marine die 33% faster), while keeping the Zealot-Marine relationship unchanged. That'd help a lot against 1-1-1 pushes since Stalker are crucial against Banshees and an Immortal is also useful in fighting off the tanks but both are traditionally weak against marine balls. This wouldn't be as big a change for the TvZ early pushes since Zergling would need 8 instead of 9 (Marine die 11% faster) attacks, Queen would need 5 instead of 6 (17% faster, but you don't mass Queen like you do with Stalker or Zergling) and the Spine-Marine and Roach-Marine relationship would remain unchanged. After that i'd guess protoss would fare a LOT better against all that early-game abuse and you'd fix at least the spectating problems of having most protoss dying horribly against T before the 10 min mark. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On August 10 2011 22:26 Gheizen64 wrote: Jokes aside, i think it's really time for Terran to get a slight nerf since they've been on top of the game for so long now (thanks also to a lot of good early game timing pushes) and it doesn't look like that will stop soon. Imho a very good fix would be having pre-shield marine with 40hp like BW (while keeping the upgraded hp at 55). That would be a nerf to Terran, but especially a buff to early-game protoss since it would make Stalker a bit better against all early game marine pushes (4 instead of 5 attacks, marine die 20% faster) and Immortal significantly better (2 instead of 3 attacks, marine die 33% faster), while keeping the Zealot-Marine relationship unchanged. That'd help a lot against 1-1-1 pushes since Stalker are crucial against Banshees and an Immortal is also useful in fighting off the tanks but both are traditionally weak against marine balls. This wouldn't be as big a change for the TvZ early pushes since Zergling would need 8 instead of 9 (Marine die 11% faster) attacks, Queen would need 5 instead of 6 (17% faster, but you don't mass Queen like you do with Stalker or Zergling) and the Spine-Marine and Roach-Marine relationship would remain unchanged. After that i'd guess protoss would fare a LOT better against all that early-game abuse and you'd fix at least the spectating problems of having most protoss dying horribly against T before the 10 min mark. That would be a huge change in early game TvZ even if 8 instead of 9 hits doesn't seem like a big deal. Honestly I think they need to revert the warp gate nerf. Would those early pushes be as devastating if we were able to get our warpgate out 20 seconds faster? Is there really a quick way to punish an extremely greedy 1 rax expand the same way a terran can punish 1 gate expand? Would people still 1-1-1 with the threat of four gate tearing down their one bunker with marines? Would zergs play as greedy as they do now and make two zerglings until they have three base saturation because they know no big push is coming for a while? Was four gate really still a problem in PvT and PvZ before the change? Did it solve four gate versus four gate in PvP? I don't think there's a way to nerf early all-ins, or the 1-1-1 since it utilizes so many terran units important to every matchup, but giving protoss back the ability to have almost one more warp-in would solve a lot of problems. | ||
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Vardant
Czech Republic620 Posts
On August 10 2011 23:05 Heavenly wrote: Honestly I think they need to revert the warp gate nerf. Would those early pushes be as devastating if we were able to get our warpgate out 20 seconds faster? That would be an obvious fix, but I'm not sure it would be enough at this point. The need for a true harass unit was never this big and it is becoming clear, that waiting for an expansion is just not feasible with the recent results the pro's are having. I was joking about some Toss players switching, but could anyone really blame them at this point? 1/1/1 push was very strong before and you needed to play almost perfectly, but nobody seems to be able to figure out a way how to stop it now. | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On August 10 2011 23:05 Heavenly wrote: That would be a huge change in early game TvZ even if 8 instead of 9 hits doesn't seem like a big deal. Honestly I think they need to revert the warp gate nerf. Would those early pushes be as devastating if we were able to get our warpgate out 20 seconds faster? Is there really a quick way to punish an extremely greedy 1 rax expand the same way a terran can punish 1 gate expand? Would people still 1-1-1 with the threat of four gate tearing down their one bunker with marines? Would zergs play as greedy as they do now and make two zerglings until they have three base saturation because they know no big push is coming for a while? Was four gate really still a problem in PvT and PvZ before the change? Did it solve four gate versus four gate in PvP? I don't think there's a way to nerf early all-ins, or the 1-1-1 since it utilizes so many terran units important to every matchup, but giving protoss back the ability to have almost one more warp-in would solve a lot of problems. you could divide banshees damage against armored units, so that they are less efficient against stalkers. right now banshees are incredible strong against everything. it could still be used for harass purposes, but not for an overall flying dps dealer. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On August 10 2011 23:48 Elefanto wrote: you could divide banshees damage against armored units, so that they are less efficient against stalkers. right now banshees are incredible strong against everything. it could still be used for harass purposes, but not for an overall flying dps dealer. Suggested that in the PTR forums long ago stating that they are too effective of a unit due to the ability to both harrass and also be powerful damage dealers in an army (ie if the harrass totally fails, you just add them to your army where they are also incredibly powerful). My proposal was to either make Cloak Tech require an armory (making Banshees a less effective harrass unit and also making it eaiser to scout Cloak incoming) or make them have 4 attacks that deal 6 damage each, keeping their potential for worker harrass the same, but reducing their DPS against armored units. I provided a lot of replays, and a very long arguement to Blizzard that took me hours to compile. It was ignored. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On August 10 2011 23:05 Heavenly wrote: Honestly I think they need to revert the warp gate nerf. As someone who was against the nerf and also 4 gated almost every game at many local tourneys with decent success using the 4 gate, I say no, do not send us back to the stone age. 4 gating was too strong, especially in PvP, for it to return. For players to have to rely on one build to cover up weaknesses in other areas is not good game design. By nerfing the 4 gate, Blizzard has shown how much Protoss players relied on it (and many still continue to rely on it) to get wins, and perhaps can finally balance out the race properly. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
There are some fairly decent anti-1/1/1 strats centered around Immortals (e.g. QTip's build in the strat forum), but if the Terran can execute the 1/1/1 perfectly the way good GSL players can than they become too fragile and can still die really easily. Immortals with better range would make robo-based anti-1/1/1 strats more effective. The 1/1/1 could still work if it took the Toss by surprise, but if Toss scouted it and prepped to crush it they would be able to, which is as it should be. In PvZ, it wouldn't fix the issue of Zergs being able to macro with impunity against any Toss who fast expands, but it would at least give Protoss stronger tools to deal with the overwhelmingly Roach-based armies Zergs who play that mass-expand style love throwing at Toss these days (see: Ret vs. Naniwa, any IM Zerg). In PvP, it would make robo a hard counter for blink, and a fast Immortal would utterly crush any 4-gate, which would help to end the current coinflip nature of the matchup. At the same time, Immortals can be a potent anti-Colossi tool, so even as it would help to standardize PvP openings and midgames it would help to mitigate War of the Worlds syndrome in the end game. The nice thing about this approach is that Immortals are hard countered by the 3 most basic units in the game, zealots, marines and zerglings. At all times, every players has the tools they need to deal with Immortals. Even if Immortals become somewhat stronger, you will never see pure Immortal based armies or Toss building mass Immortals. So, for example, in PvT, stronger Immortals would help a ton against the 1/1/1, but against the standard Terran bio style of infantry + ghosts Immortals would still be pretty weak. | ||
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