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[July] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 31

Forum Index > SC2 General
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lahey
Profile Joined April 2011
United States41 Posts
August 09 2011 06:01 GMT
#601
maybe these stats will silence the destiny/day 9/zerg fanboys who scream zerg up and protoss op, GG
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
August 09 2011 06:04 GMT
#602
On August 09 2011 14:54 Heavenly wrote:
The problem with "terran just has much better players than the other races in Korea" is that if there is actually any imbalance in the game, it's impossible to say if they are actually the better players or look better because their race is better at that level. For instance, what if Bomber was protoss, would people be as amazed by his play? If Polt was zerg, would he still have won the super tournament? Are people like Puzzle who win Code A just so much better than their opponents that he would have been a top terran? Would MC do better as terran? etc. I remember he offraced a lot of pros at HSC3 and won. I think he 3-0'd Nerchio with terran but I think at least a part of it was a good 2rax bunker rush. He also beat MMA in a joke offrace TvP at MLG but it may have been a joke game.

Hard to say. We'll see what Blizzard does. PvT midgame seems fairly balanced. Late game seems to be based on skill and positioning. The HT and Colossus army and possibility of mass gateway is powerful but you almost never see terrans mass OCs and sacrifice their scvs (which is silly, people say protoss doesn't innovate but terrans still don't seem to be doing this when it's obviously excellent) and a lot of losses for either side have points in the engagement where you can say 'this went wrong'. However most protoss are getting hugely dominated by the 1-1-1, usually later in a bo3 where the protoss before just slaughtered the terran in a macro game (a lot of Ganzi's play in the qualifiers come to mind).

Right now the PvT in Korea this month seems to be like...3 wins to 10 maybe? Small sample size atm though but there's been a good bit of dominance.


Hell yes I wish he'd switch to terran. Imagine MC with like 100 effective all in's and his sick micro.
eg
Cloaked Banshee rush
2 port banshee cloak rush
ghost nuke rush
ghost rush
2 rax
2 rax marauder push
2 rax marauder all in
3 rax all in
1-1-1 all in and all it's variants
bunker rush
proxy rax
proxy marauder
proxy Thor rush
proxy banshee rush
proxy cloaked banshee rush
5 rax allin
6 rax allin

etc etc etc.

I think he would not lose.
MC for president
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
August 09 2011 08:36 GMT
#603
On August 09 2011 08:14 SidianTheBard wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2011 08:05 sleepingdog wrote:
Zerg too, but not as much, with July, Jaedong and Savior...

And Protoss? Meh, mostly Bisu and Nal_Ra vs Savior and not much more. None of them ever managed to stay on top more than one season sorta like MC.
Mc's championships came off of him pioneering new timing attacks and having extremely solid standard play. However as people figured out the timing attacks, protoss can only fall back on solid play, which also has its inherent weakness of lack of punishing ability

I agree, we could take the stargate opening (either of 1 gate, 3 gate or forge FE) as perfect example. Recently I have not one pro PvZ seen where the stargate opening would give the protoss an advantage. Mostly it's the opposite, the P gets behind.
I think it's safe to say that the stargate opener has been figured out. Then, when toss tries to fall back on standard macro this happens:
+ Show Spoiler +
Ret vs Nani on shakuras. Utter destruction by ridiculously overwhelming macro-dominance


Except You need to do some type of harass to a zerg when you fast expand or else he will only double expand and/or drone pump and you will be behind anyway. What does a protoss have to do? Stargate & DTs expands are both "countered" (mostly) by 1 spore crawler at each base. So no DT or Stargate tech. This leaves a timing attack with gateways, which we've seen constantly the past 2 months and for the most part are slowly starting to get figured out and if the zerg scouts the massive amount of gateways going down toss will most likely lose. Finally we've got a collosus push or an archon push, but those can't happen until you get at least 3 or 4 of them so your ground army won't get completely decimated. Problem with going robo is if they go mutas (which our 6 or 7 gate timing attack was designed to crush) we will get owned by mutas and contained hard. If we don't do any pressure protoss have to sit back passively hoping they can get 3 base with a great economy and killing zerg in a single blow.

It's getting to the point that toss can't do anything to a competent zerg now a day.


I wouldn't say you can't do anything, but - as Blizzard seems to agree - Toss has no reliable harassment-options that do guaranteed damage like medivac drops. Even if they get picked up once in a while, if you just keep dropping aggressively I've always seen drops get through and clear a drone-line.

Notice that I'm coming from warcraft 3 when I say that: but P has nothing compared to sair/reaver, which hurts really, really bad. P needs a reliable way of harassing/shutting down Z expansions, and with phoenixes doing actually zero dps to buildings and DTs being countered by one spore + one spine zergs can expand all over the place with little you can do about it.

Currently I seen more and more toss players fall back to a very aggressive macro-style. Forge FE or one gate FE with many gateways and attack after warpgates are done. Even if you lose your stuff, you basicly trade zealots against larvae that could've been drones, while you can constantly produce probes yourself.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
August 09 2011 12:32 GMT
#604
Someone posted this in the LR thread, I guess it is kind of relevant here

http://twitter.com/#!/OrangeMilkis/status/100901685949505537
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee
RT: @SlayerSAlicia: David Kim..... Please save us.....
awesomoecalypse
Profile Joined August 2010
United States2235 Posts
August 09 2011 18:44 GMT
#605
I'm already getting the sense that the August numbers aren't gonna be pretty
He drone drone drone. Me win. - ogsMC
Toadvine
Profile Joined November 2010
Poland2234 Posts
August 09 2011 19:07 GMT
#606
I kind of hope all the Protoss players in Code S die to Terran all-ins, then the same thing happens in Up/Downs, and we get maybe one Protoss remaining, alongside 7 Zergs and 24 Terrans. It would be hilarious beyond all measure.
"There are always some Eskimos ready to instruct the Congolese on how to cope with heat waves." - S.J.Lec
Ctuchik
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden91 Posts
August 09 2011 19:12 GMT
#607
Thanks for posting this ZL, I totally forgot! It's still way to early to tell on the August stats, but so far they look pretty decent.
http://twitter.com/sc2statistics
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17738 Posts
August 09 2011 19:26 GMT
#608
On August 10 2011 04:12 Ctuchik wrote:
Thanks for posting this ZL, I totally forgot! It's still way to early to tell on the August stats, but so far they look pretty decent.

So far Protoss is 4-8 vs Terran in the GSL. 2 of those wins are from Tassadar vs Fenix. So 2-8 if you only count Korean vs Korean.
"Expert" mods4ever.com
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
August 09 2011 20:09 GMT
#609
On August 10 2011 04:26 Die4Ever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2011 04:12 Ctuchik wrote:
Thanks for posting this ZL, I totally forgot! It's still way to early to tell on the August stats, but so far they look pretty decent.

So far Protoss is 4-8 vs Terran in the GSL. 2 of those wins are from Tassadar vs Fenix. So 2-8 if you only count Korean vs Korean.


Fenix was most definitely not on the same level as almost any korean. Tassadar killed him without actually trying to kill him. It was like a zerg dying to a 3gate sentry expand level of dying to pressure.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
Sabu113
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States11087 Posts
August 09 2011 20:48 GMT
#610
haha Remember that game in the TSL where MC did a 3gate poke with sentries and a zealot and killed the foreigner while losing nothing?
Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME', because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video ...-Wombat_Ni
Heavenly
Profile Joined January 2011
2172 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-09 21:11:57
August 09 2011 21:10 GMT
#611
On August 10 2011 04:07 Toadvine wrote:
I kind of hope all the Protoss players in Code S die to Terran all-ins, then the same thing happens in Up/Downs, and we get maybe one Protoss remaining, alongside 7 Zergs and 24 Terrans. It would be hilarious beyond all measure.


The funniest part is that this is actually likely. Though because of PvP a couple will make it out in the beginning. Now we have Naniwa and Sase, two of the best foreigner protoss outside of Korea (with Naniwa being seen as the best) going to Code A and I have a feeling they won't go too far either. So the whole "Korea just has no good protoss" argument will be funny to see because it'll be "the entire world has no good protosses" even though if you take a look at Naniwa's face after each tournament loss you know he practices his heart out probably 8-10+ hours a day.
"thx for all my fans i'm many lost but cheer for me .. i lost but so happy my power is fans i will good play this is promise my fans" - oGsMC
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17738 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-09 21:20:09
August 09 2011 21:14 GMT
#612
On August 10 2011 06:10 Heavenly wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2011 04:07 Toadvine wrote:
I kind of hope all the Protoss players in Code S die to Terran all-ins, then the same thing happens in Up/Downs, and we get maybe one Protoss remaining, alongside 7 Zergs and 24 Terrans. It would be hilarious beyond all measure.


The funniest part is that this is actually likely. Though because of PvP a couple will make it out in the beginning. Now we have Naniwa and Sase, two of the best foreigner protoss outside of Korea (with Naniwa being seen as the best) going to Code A and I have a feeling they won't go too far either. So the whole "Korea just has no good protoss" argument will be funny to see because it'll be "the entire world has no good protosses" even though if you take a look at Naniwa's face after each tournament loss you know he practices his heart out probably 8-10+ hours a day.

I was only referring to this season so far.
+ Show Spoiler +
Vanvanth lost 1-2 to Ganzi.
Extreme lost 0-2 to SC.
Tails lost 1-2 to Taeja.
And MC lost to MVP and Noblesse.


Edit: Woa, I could swear I quoted someone asking me which games I was counting, but I can't seem to find that post now, lol.
"Expert" mods4ever.com
quiet noise
Profile Joined May 2011
599 Posts
August 09 2011 21:52 GMT
#613
i hope someone brings this up on inside the game, i wanna hear idra explain this by protoss players being unusally bad this month.
Zealot Lord
Profile Joined May 2010
Hong Kong748 Posts
August 09 2011 23:27 GMT
#614
On August 10 2011 04:12 Ctuchik wrote:
Thanks for posting this ZL, I totally forgot! It's still way to early to tell on the August stats, but so far they look pretty decent.


Most welcome! Remember, all credits go to this guy here ^_^

Hope you do these charts like, forever, hahaha =p
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
August 10 2011 00:09 GMT
#615
On August 10 2011 04:12 Ctuchik wrote:
Thanks for posting this ZL, I totally forgot! It's still way to early to tell on the August stats, but so far they look pretty decent.

+ Show Spoiler +
4-10 so far, with a 2-0 on Tassadar against a foreign terran
Techno
Profile Joined June 2010
1900 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-10 06:40:46
August 10 2011 06:37 GMT
#616
On August 09 2011 15:04 tdt wrote:
2 rax
2 rax marauder push
2 rax marauder all in

Wtf are you even goin on about?
Please teach me how to 2 rax, 2 rax "marauder pooosh" and 2 rax "maruader all in".
Hell, its awesome to LOSE to nukes!
Techno
Profile Joined June 2010
1900 Posts
August 10 2011 06:40 GMT
#617
if you take a look at Naniwa's face after each tournament loss you know he practices his heart out probably 8-10+ hours a day.

What? Cause he gets pissed off?

Practise doesnt make perfect. Perfect practise makes perfect.

No one outside of Korea is practising perfectly. No one in Korea is either, but there a hell of a lot closer.
Hell, its awesome to LOSE to nukes!
CatharsisUT
Profile Joined March 2011
United States487 Posts
August 10 2011 07:43 GMT
#618
Code A spoilers

+ Show Spoiler +
So, for the entire First round of Code A, Protoss are 2-7, and 1-6 if you remove the mirror. The one win was Tassadar vs Fenix, and I'm going to go ahead and posit that maybe it's not representative of even skill.

We'll see how Code S goes. The most likely 'toss to advance is already out, and there are 7 left in Code S.
paradisefar
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada20 Posts
August 10 2011 11:50 GMT
#619
sick of the balance talk from looking at top level game stats

sick of balance talk from looking at some 30-50 games each month in korean top level games

and statistically, toss players are much whinier than other races, much more reactive to any "signs" of their up'ness, and thus toss got all the buffs and still don't quit on it. toss are just spoiled badly by blizzard.

if u are not a pro level player, plz stop whining at the pro level stats, millions of other non-pro players need to enjoy this game. while u are whining, toss is still the most played race from gold to master(http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all)

well, maybe blizzard should make toss less of a a-move race, so that people would stop saying it has lowest skill cap, and thus more pro actually play this race.
Vardant
Profile Joined November 2010
Czech Republic620 Posts
August 10 2011 12:02 GMT
#620
On August 10 2011 20:50 paradisefar wrote:
and statistically, toss players are much whinier than other races, much more reactive to any "signs" of their up'ness, and thus toss got all the buffs and still don't quit on it. toss are just spoiled badly by blizzard.

Ok, either share your parallel universe traveling technology or stop trolling.
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