On August 08 2011 17:07 CruelZeratul wrote: So Terran has been winning more nearly the whole time span this graph is showing and still no Terrans wants to think about his race perhaps being slightly to strong?
And it has nothing to do with Terran being the most popular race...
Even in July, as the graphs show a high Terran win% we see the other races doing very well. ZvZ Code S finals, PvP Code A finals. Even this weekend we saw + Show Spoiler +
Zergs win both Assembly and EU invitational, both in PvZ no less
.
But no, Terran being the most popular race isn't why they are winning more games. Not like the five that finished at the top of MLG were Korean trained or anything...
So how does popularity influence winrates? And what do you mean by popularity? The number of pro's for one race? Overall Terran doesn not have more players than the other races.
Most popular race, more players playing the race, larger amount of better players.
What... why are people abandoning protoss, this is terrible, without a protoss player base what upcoming talent will protoss have. Look at the hugely talented Terran player Byun I have no idea what he was doing before but he definitely went under the radar cause hes so good now. Wish Protoss could have a player like him.
On August 08 2011 17:07 CruelZeratul wrote: So Terran has been winning more nearly the whole time span this graph is showing and still no Terrans wants to think about his race perhaps being slightly to strong?
And it has nothing to do with Terran being the most popular race...
Even in July, as the graphs show a high Terran win% we see the other races doing very well. ZvZ Code S finals, PvP Code A finals. Even this weekend we saw + Show Spoiler +
Zergs win both Assembly and EU invitational, both in PvZ no less
.
But no, Terran being the most popular race isn't why they are winning more games. Not like the five that finished at the top of MLG were Korean trained or anything...
So how does popularity influence winrates? And what do you mean by popularity? The number of pro's for one race? Overall Terran doesn not have more players than the other races.
Most popular race, more players playing the race, larger amount of better players.
What... why are people abandoning protoss, this is terrible, without a protoss player base what upcoming talent will protoss have. Look at the hugely talented Terran player Byun I have no idea what he was doing before but he definitely went under the radar cause hes so good now. Wish Protoss could have a player like him.
Byun was playing protoss before but got off that sick horse and jumped on the strong horse. I wish MC would switch so people could see just how sick he is. We got a glimpse in homestory where he dominated pros off race for fun. Maybe Jinro can speak to that.
Interesting to see that, in terms of MUs vs. both other races, Protoss is doing the worst, while, overall, Zerg is doing the worst. Even though the graph constantly shifts for PvZ, we see that it's more dominant for Zerg when Zergs are ahead of the metagame than when Protosses are.
Zerg peaks vP: 66.7% winrate, 61.5% winrate, 70.5%, 59.4%, and, lastly, 56.6%. Compare this to Protoss peaks vZ: 60%, 55.6%, 57.6%, and 55.8%.
Note that a couple of those (one of Zerg's and one of Protoss's) aren't strictly "peaks", but they're still a mildly significant trend that either follows or is prelude to a peak.
TvP is a similar story, except more one-sided.
Terran peaks vP: 59.7%, 55.6%, 57%, 66%, 61.2% Protoss peaks vT: 58.3%
Again, one of that isn't strictly a peak (the 55.6% for terran), but I include it for the same reason as above.
TvZ is the most depressing graph, because I have no need to even list any Zerg peaks when there are none. Terran is either even with Zerg, or slightly/significantly dominating. With that said, it's interesting how Zerg whine has shifted toward Protoss rather than Terran, given how these matchups look. There could be a number of factors influencing this: IdrA's opinions, ladder experiences for lower-level players, and more.
In conclusion, Zerg is doing the worst overall, which is apparent from the main graph. What might not be as apparent is that that's solely due to how badly Terran has been dominating Zerg for some time, so we have this interesting situation in which ZvP has shown itself to be slightly Z-favored, (source for the numbers influencing my thought process: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252455), but TvZ is so Terran-dominated that it skews Zerg's numbers and gives them the worst overall winrate.
Edit: Upon further thought, it doesn't really make sense for me to say that Zerg is doing the worst overall, since the statistics in the topic I linked above shows that Protoss has by far the lowest non-mirror winrate. I was simply eyeballing the main graph and the Zerg line seemed to be the most constantly below the other lines, but the statistics tell a different story.
ladder experience lends it to terran is even with zerg for the most part because all but the very top players don't split as well, and thus banelings are completely balanced. On the other hand zergs remember the time they threw 500 supply of roach corruptor against a max protoss deathball, got owned each time and cry imba. Also idra might not understand the full scope of his comments on balance. People fanboy to his statements, take it as fact and suddenly we have protoss op even when statistics say otherwise
On August 09 2011 07:36 HolyArrow wrote: In conclusion, Zerg is doing the worst overall, which is apparent from the main graph. What might not be as apparent is that that's solely due to how badly Terran has been dominating Zerg for some time, so we have this interesting situation in which ZvP has shown itself to be slightly Z-favored, (source for the numbers influencing my thought process: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252455), but TvZ is so Terran-dominated that it skews Zerg's numbers and gives them the worst overall winrate.
Not really sure how you can say Zerg is doing worse than Protoss overall. Zerg had 4 months of being on the short end of the statistics, and now Protoss has had it's own 4 months of the same thing. Other than Terran, things actually look pretty even on an 8 month timeline.
On August 09 2011 07:36 HolyArrow wrote: In conclusion, Zerg is doing the worst overall, which is apparent from the main graph. What might not be as apparent is that that's solely due to how badly Terran has been dominating Zerg for some time, so we have this interesting situation in which ZvP has shown itself to be slightly Z-favored, (source for the numbers influencing my thought process: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252455), but TvZ is so Terran-dominated that it skews Zerg's numbers and gives them the worst overall winrate.
Not really sure how you can say Zerg is doing worse than Protoss overall. Zerg had 4 months of being on the short end of the statistics, and now Protoss has had it's own 4 months of the same thing. Other than Terran, things actually look pretty even on an 8 month timeline.
You could be right about that. I was simply eyeballing the main graph, and Protoss's 4 months of the same thing doesn't really look as bad as Zerg's. It actually surprises me that statistics in the topic that I linked to actually shows Protoss has by far the lowest non-mirror winrate.
On August 09 2011 07:36 HolyArrow wrote: In conclusion, Zerg is doing the worst overall, which is apparent from the main graph. What might not be as apparent is that that's solely due to how badly Terran has been dominating Zerg for some time, so we have this interesting situation in which ZvP has shown itself to be slightly Z-favored, (source for the numbers influencing my thought process: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252455), but TvZ is so Terran-dominated that it skews Zerg's numbers and gives them the worst overall winrate.
Not really sure how you can say Zerg is doing worse than Protoss overall. Zerg had 4 months of being on the short end of the statistics, and now Protoss has had it's own 4 months of the same thing. Other than Terran, things actually look pretty even on an 8 month timeline.
Basically, protoss is getting owned by terran, but so is zerg, and probably because there are more tvz than tvp, zerg looks worse when you put all the statistics together
At this point, judging from some of the interviews with the Blizzard development team I've read here on TL, I think it would be fair to say that Blizzard's team is going to address the fairly apparent, though not overwhelming, balance issues through the addition of units in HOTS, not the alteration of current units. I think this is wise, because it allows them to balance the game and increase tactical diversity.
More I think about it SC2 is becoming like BW with protoss as stepchild. Look back, Terrans had long time pwnage with Boxer, Iloveoov, NaDa, Flash, Fantasy...
Zerg too, but not as much, with July, Jaedong and Savior...
And Protoss? Meh, mostly Bisu and Nal_Ra vs Savior and not much more. None of them ever managed to stay on top more than one season sorta like MC.
On August 09 2011 07:54 tdt wrote: More I think about it SC2 is becoming like BW with protoss as stepchild. Look back, Terrans had long time pwnage with Boxer, Iloveoov, NaDa, Flash, Fantasy...
Zerg too, but not as much, with July, Jaedong and Savior...
And Protoss? Meh, mostly Bisu and Nal_Ra vs Savior and not much more. None of them ever managed to stay on top more than one season sorta like MC.
Mc's championships came off of him pioneering new timing attacks and having extremely solid standard play. However as people figured out the timing attacks, protoss can only fall back on solid play, which also has its inherent weakness of lack of punishing ability
On August 09 2011 07:54 tdt wrote: More I think about it SC2 is becoming like BW with protoss as stepchild. Look back, Terrans had long time pwnage with Boxer, Iloveoov, NaDa, Flash, Fantasy...
Zerg too, but not as much, with July, Jaedong and Savior...
And Protoss? Meh, mostly Bisu and Nal_Ra vs Savior and not much more. None of them ever managed to stay on top more than one season sorta like MC.
Mc's championships came off of him pioneering new timing attacks and having extremely solid standard play. However as people figured out the timing attacks, protoss can only fall back on solid play, which also has its inherent weakness of lack of punishing ability
LOL once again like BW, in order win his OSL Bisu needed a brand new build that took everyone by surprise and crazy high APM... people figured it out and the rest is a rather dismal history.
On August 09 2011 07:54 tdt wrote: More I think about it SC2 is becoming like BW with protoss as stepchild. Look back, Terrans had long time pwnage with Boxer, Iloveoov, NaDa, Flash, Fantasy...
Zerg too, but not as much, with July, Jaedong and Savior...
And Protoss? Meh, mostly Bisu and Nal_Ra vs Savior and not much more. None of them ever managed to stay on top more than one season sorta like MC.
Mc's championships came off of him pioneering new timing attacks and having extremely solid standard play. However as people figured out the timing attacks, protoss can only fall back on solid play, which also has its inherent weakness of lack of punishing ability
I agree, we could take the stargate opening (either of 1 gate, 3 gate or forge FE) as perfect example. Recently I have not one pro PvZ seen where the stargate opening would give the protoss an advantage. Mostly it's the opposite, the P gets behind. I think it's safe to say that the stargate opener has been figured out. Then, when toss tries to fall back on standard macro this happens: + Show Spoiler +
Ret vs Nani on shakuras. Utter destruction by ridiculously overwhelming macro-dominance
On August 09 2011 07:54 tdt wrote: More I think about it SC2 is becoming like BW with protoss as stepchild. Look back, Terrans had long time pwnage with Boxer, Iloveoov, NaDa, Flash, Fantasy...
Zerg too, but not as much, with July, Jaedong and Savior...
And Protoss? Meh, mostly Bisu and Nal_Ra vs Savior and not much more. None of them ever managed to stay on top more than one season sorta like MC.
Mc's championships came off of him pioneering new timing attacks and having extremely solid standard play. However as people figured out the timing attacks, protoss can only fall back on solid play, which also has its inherent weakness of lack of punishing ability
LOL once again like BW, in order win his OSL Bisu needed a brand new build that took everyone by surprise and crazy high APM... people figured it out and the rest is a rather dismal history.
On August 09 2011 07:54 tdt wrote: More I think about it SC2 is becoming like BW with protoss as stepchild. Look back, Terrans had long time pwnage with Boxer, Iloveoov, NaDa, Flash, Fantasy...
Zerg too, but not as much, with July, Jaedong and Savior...
And Protoss? Meh, mostly Bisu and Nal_Ra vs Savior and not much more. None of them ever managed to stay on top more than one season sorta like MC.
Mc's championships came off of him pioneering new timing attacks and having extremely solid standard play. However as people figured out the timing attacks, protoss can only fall back on solid play, which also has its inherent weakness of lack of punishing ability
I agree, we could take the stargate opening (either of 1 gate, 3 gate or forge FE) as perfect example. Recently I have not one pro PvZ seen where the stargate opening would give the protoss an advantage. Mostly it's the opposite, the P gets behind. I think it's safe to say that the stargate opener has been figured out. Then, when toss tries to fall back on standard macro this happens: + Show Spoiler +
Ret vs Nani on shakuras. Utter destruction by ridiculously overwhelming macro-dominance
Used to with VR 40 DPS on armored. You'd have to build a hell of a lot more than one spore and one queen to defend stargate openings. You definite couldn't expand willy nilly. It wasnt "figured out", it was nerfed into map control.
On August 09 2011 08:05 sleepingdog wrote: Zerg too, but not as much, with July, Jaedong and Savior...
And Protoss? Meh, mostly Bisu and Nal_Ra vs Savior and not much more. None of them ever managed to stay on top more than one season sorta like MC. Mc's championships came off of him pioneering new timing attacks and having extremely solid standard play. However as people figured out the timing attacks, protoss can only fall back on solid play, which also has its inherent weakness of lack of punishing ability
I agree, we could take the stargate opening (either of 1 gate, 3 gate or forge FE) as perfect example. Recently I have not one pro PvZ seen where the stargate opening would give the protoss an advantage. Mostly it's the opposite, the P gets behind. I think it's safe to say that the stargate opener has been figured out. Then, when toss tries to fall back on standard macro this happens: + Show Spoiler +
Ret vs Nani on shakuras. Utter destruction by ridiculously overwhelming macro-dominance
Except You need to do some type of harass to a zerg when you fast expand or else he will only double expand and/or drone pump and you will be behind anyway. What does a protoss have to do? Stargate & DTs expands are both "countered" (mostly) by 1 spore crawler at each base. So no DT or Stargate tech. This leaves a timing attack with gateways, which we've seen constantly the past 2 months and for the most part are slowly starting to get figured out and if the zerg scouts the massive amount of gateways going down toss will most likely lose. Finally we've got a collosus push or an archon push, but those can't happen until you get at least 3 or 4 of them so your ground army won't get completely decimated. Problem with going robo is if they go mutas (which our 6 or 7 gate timing attack was designed to crush) we will get owned by mutas and contained hard. If we don't do any pressure protoss have to sit back passively hoping they can get 3 base with a great economy and killing zerg in a single blow.
It's getting to the point that toss can't do anything to a competent zerg now a day.
On August 09 2011 07:54 tdt wrote: More I think about it SC2 is becoming like BW with protoss as stepchild. Look back, Terrans had long time pwnage with Boxer, Iloveoov, NaDa, Flash, Fantasy...
Zerg too, but not as much, with July, Jaedong and Savior...
And Protoss? Meh, mostly Bisu and Nal_Ra vs Savior and not much more. None of them ever managed to stay on top more than one season sorta like MC.
Mc's championships came off of him pioneering new timing attacks and having extremely solid standard play. However as people figured out the timing attacks, protoss can only fall back on solid play, which also has its inherent weakness of lack of punishing ability
LOL once again like BW, in order win his OSL Bisu needed a brand new build that took everyone by surprise and crazy high APM... people figured it out and the rest is a rather dismal history.
On August 09 2011 07:54 tdt wrote: More I think about it SC2 is becoming like BW with protoss as stepchild. Look back, Terrans had long time pwnage with Boxer, Iloveoov, NaDa, Flash, Fantasy...
Zerg too, but not as much, with July, Jaedong and Savior...
And Protoss? Meh, mostly Bisu and Nal_Ra vs Savior and not much more. None of them ever managed to stay on top more than one season sorta like MC.
Mc's championships came off of him pioneering new timing attacks and having extremely solid standard play. However as people figured out the timing attacks, protoss can only fall back on solid play, which also has its inherent weakness of lack of punishing ability
LOL once again like BW, in order win his OSL Bisu needed a brand new build that took everyone by surprise and crazy high APM... people figured it out and the rest is a rather dismal history.
and yet, people voted protoss as the least explored race, when i feel they were the first to experiment new things. the race feels gimmick and just because of it, i think protoss players are by far the most inovatives, they need to be...
just look how long it took to terran players to start using lots of ghosts and BFH, I wonder if KA would still get removed if ghost had been used back then
On August 09 2011 07:54 tdt wrote: More I think about it SC2 is becoming like BW with protoss as stepchild. Look back, Terrans had long time pwnage with Boxer, Iloveoov, NaDa, Flash, Fantasy...
Zerg too, but not as much, with July, Jaedong and Savior...
And Protoss? Meh, mostly Bisu and Nal_Ra vs Savior and not much more. None of them ever managed to stay on top more than one season sorta like MC.
Mc's championships came off of him pioneering new timing attacks and having extremely solid standard play. However as people figured out the timing attacks, protoss can only fall back on solid play, which also has its inherent weakness of lack of punishing ability
LOL once again like BW, in order win his OSL Bisu needed a brand new build that took everyone by surprise and crazy high APM... people figured it out and the rest is a rather dismal history.
and yet, people voted protoss as the least explored race, when i feel they were the first to experiment new things. the race feels gimmick and just because of it, i think protoss players are by far the most inovatives, they need to be...
just look how long it took to terran players to start using lots of ghosts and BFH, I wonder if KA would still get removed if ghost had been used back then
Yup. Or how about infestor. I mean lets face it - infestor buff was not much and only to armored, and they got a nerf too on speed, and they were hardly ever used. No Zerg just went roach hydra for 6 months and complained about colossi and marine tank. Once they learned, hey infestor is not bad, Protoss just innovated again with archons, HT and air builds.
On August 09 2011 07:54 tdt wrote: More I think about it SC2 is becoming like BW with protoss as stepchild. Look back, Terrans had long time pwnage with Boxer, Iloveoov, NaDa, Flash, Fantasy...
Zerg too, but not as much, with July, Jaedong and Savior...
And Protoss? Meh, mostly Bisu and Nal_Ra vs Savior and not much more. None of them ever managed to stay on top more than one season sorta like MC.
Mc's championships came off of him pioneering new timing attacks and having extremely solid standard play. However as people figured out the timing attacks, protoss can only fall back on solid play, which also has its inherent weakness of lack of punishing ability
LOL once again like BW, in order win his OSL Bisu needed a brand new build that took everyone by surprise and crazy high APM... people figured it out and the rest is a rather dismal history.
and yet, people voted protoss as the least explored race, when i feel they were the first to experiment new things. the race feels gimmick and just because of it, i think protoss players are by far the most inovatives, they need to be...
just look how long it took to terran players to start using lots of ghosts and BFH, I wonder if KA would still get removed if ghost had been used back then
Yeah. I wonder how long it takes for Ts to realize how good hellions are vs zealots and starts using them instead of marines in their main army.
To be fair Toss has always had a monopoly on the most baller players. Mantoss (Reach), Nal_ra, Stork, Hairtoss (bisu), MinChul.
I think the claims that hellions aren't that good agains zels is pretty fair. It doesn't matter, they really should be got just for the fact that Reaver drops are amazing.
EPT
