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man that mr.lee is a serious douche bag. Now I understand how puma must have felt.
I think those players will fair better with leaving TSL with that douche running the team.
Mr.Lee is ruining ESPORTS
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On August 05 2011 04:48 wolfe wrote:
Sidenote question.
If FD and SKS are/were notoriously lazy why did ST pick them up. Have they decided to reform or something? If so, I'm happy for them my roommate cries himself to sleep after watching FD's games.
yeah its just bullshit that mr. lee came up with
it was agreed that trickster and FD could choose their own working hours.
also at the time FD and Trickster left TSL they were both code s players even if they did not perform on the very top level.
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On August 05 2011 04:50 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 04:48 wolfe wrote:
Sidenote question.
If FD and SKS are/were notoriously lazy why did ST pick them up. Have they decided to reform or something? If so, I'm happy for them my roommate cries himself to sleep after watching FD's games. LOL, I do the same. Maybe I'm your roommate.
Aaron?
On August 05 2011 04:51 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 04:48 wolfe wrote:
Sidenote question.
If FD and SKS are/were notoriously lazy why did ST pick them up. Have they decided to reform or something? If so, I'm happy for them my roommate cries himself to sleep after watching FD's games. yeah its just bullshit that mr. lee came up with it was agreed that trickster and FD could choose their own working hours. also at the time FD and Trickster left TSL they were both code s players even if they did not perform on the very top level.
Also seriously, why does everyone seem to think FD and SKS suck now? Tester posted great results this past GSL.
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On August 05 2011 03:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:42 GinDo wrote:On August 05 2011 03:28 Plansix wrote:
So let me get this straight:
- The coach, a full grown adult, started a SC2 team made up of players, some of that are under the age of 18. None of them were paid and he counted on their “passion” for the game to binding “agreement” holding the team together.
- When some of them were successful, he made money off of their interviews and advertisements. He offered them wages, once again, with no contract or written agreement.
- When those players did not perform as well, he withheld their wages, but continued to use their interviews and likeness in advertisements.
I don't know a lot about the Coach Lee and his past teams, but on paper this looks like a legal nightmare. At best is poor management and at worst it could be considered child labor, unfair business practices and possibly fraud. Most states(I understand this is not in the US) bar employers from withhold wages, employing children without a contract and using someone’s likeness(aka, picture in an add) without their express(written ) consent.
Players on teams are employees, not matter what people say. If Coach Lee was making money, no matter how much, off of their effort, he should have paid them. If the amount was so small that it could only support the team house, then he should have had contracts with them and keep good records to show this. This is called good business practices and helps with these pesky things call lawsuits.
Also, I am not a fan of anyone under the age of 18 working for someone without a contract. I know not everyone on TSL was, but most of the players are very young. I don't know what is standard in Korea, but the lack of a contract really opens the door for abuse and fraud. Contracts are meant to protect both sides and lay out exactly what both sides are responsible for. When you don't have a contract, situations like this crop up, where both sides have differing ideas of what is expected of them. If one side doesn't want a contract, they are basicly saying "I don't want to be responsable for anything", no matter how they spin it.
I am glad someone is taking TSL to task for not paying their players. If you have a problem with an employee, warn or fire them. Don't withhold their pay and expect them to work. O_O you should get you facts straight. Only FD and Trickster got their wages withheld, because they didn;t want to practice. Both of them are in their 20s. As for the minors they are their on parental consent and free will. You should read up on your facts a bit more before you toss around the old Child Labor shinnanigans. No play no pay. Sounds fair enough. Go Lee. No child should ever be working without a contract. It's a terrible idea, will lead to abuse. Hell, someone who is in their 20s shouldn't either. Its dumb. And you should get your facts straight. Coach Lee claims they were not practicing. He has every reason to lie, since he was withholding wages. He should have fire them, rather than withhold wages. And he still should pay them for any adds or interviews he is making money off of.
Well if theirs no contract, then theirs nothing forcing them to play and no one forcing the owner to pay. And whose fault is that? The players fault for being dumb enough to stay on a team like that. Their are tons of other teams willing to make contracts. If your really that good you will find one quickly.
And FD and Trickster have every reason to lie also. Everyone has a reason to lie. The only thing I can be certain of is that FD and Trickster like to be lazy and not practice. Thats why they left OGS that why they left TSL.
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On August 05 2011 04:48 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 04:30 moonmeh wrote:Fuck I was translating for so long and find out someone did it before me FUCKITTY FUCK FUCK aw well here's the linkUGGGHH SO FRUSTRATED, what did I spend my time doing? HWAUIDhuaiw Missed it by 8 posts.... Sorry mods, just venting frustration here. So this is what it feels like.... If it helps console you, I prefer this translation
Thank you, I spend a lot of time trying to make it flow and tried to use various words so that it doesn't sound repetitive and tried to portray the true meaning not just the literal. People like you make doing stuff like this worthwhile :D
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I can't believe how dirty Coach Lee is.
The rest of TSL should find other teams as soon as possible. I'd hate for them to get screwed over too.
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On August 05 2011 04:52 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:55 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2011 03:42 GinDo wrote:On August 05 2011 03:28 Plansix wrote:
So let me get this straight:
- The coach, a full grown adult, started a SC2 team made up of players, some of that are under the age of 18. None of them were paid and he counted on their “passion” for the game to binding “agreement” holding the team together.
- When some of them were successful, he made money off of their interviews and advertisements. He offered them wages, once again, with no contract or written agreement.
- When those players did not perform as well, he withheld their wages, but continued to use their interviews and likeness in advertisements.
I don't know a lot about the Coach Lee and his past teams, but on paper this looks like a legal nightmare. At best is poor management and at worst it could be considered child labor, unfair business practices and possibly fraud. Most states(I understand this is not in the US) bar employers from withhold wages, employing children without a contract and using someone’s likeness(aka, picture in an add) without their express(written ) consent.
Players on teams are employees, not matter what people say. If Coach Lee was making money, no matter how much, off of their effort, he should have paid them. If the amount was so small that it could only support the team house, then he should have had contracts with them and keep good records to show this. This is called good business practices and helps with these pesky things call lawsuits.
Also, I am not a fan of anyone under the age of 18 working for someone without a contract. I know not everyone on TSL was, but most of the players are very young. I don't know what is standard in Korea, but the lack of a contract really opens the door for abuse and fraud. Contracts are meant to protect both sides and lay out exactly what both sides are responsible for. When you don't have a contract, situations like this crop up, where both sides have differing ideas of what is expected of them. If one side doesn't want a contract, they are basicly saying "I don't want to be responsable for anything", no matter how they spin it.
I am glad someone is taking TSL to task for not paying their players. If you have a problem with an employee, warn or fire them. Don't withhold their pay and expect them to work. O_O you should get you facts straight. Only FD and Trickster got their wages withheld, because they didn;t want to practice. Both of them are in their 20s. As for the minors they are their on parental consent and free will. You should read up on your facts a bit more before you toss around the old Child Labor shinnanigans. No play no pay. Sounds fair enough. Go Lee. No child should ever be working without a contract. It's a terrible idea, will lead to abuse. Hell, someone who is in their 20s shouldn't either. Its dumb. And you should get your facts straight. Coach Lee claims they were not practicing. He has every reason to lie, since he was withholding wages. He should have fire them, rather than withhold wages. And he still should pay them for any adds or interviews he is making money off of. Well if theirs no contract, then theirs nothing forcing them to play and no one forcing the owner to pay. And whose fault is that? The players fault for being dumb enough to stay on a team like that. Their are tons of other teams willing to make contracts. If your really that good you will find one quickly. And FD and Trickster have every reason to lie also. Everyone has a reason to lie. The only thing I can be certain of is that FD and Trickster like to be lazy and not practice. Thats why they left OGS that why they left TSL.
it is possible to conclude verbal contracts as long as there are no form requirements. they are just as valid as written contracts. the only problem is provability
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On August 05 2011 04:52 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 04:50 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 04:48 wolfe wrote:
Sidenote question.
If FD and SKS are/were notoriously lazy why did ST pick them up. Have they decided to reform or something? If so, I'm happy for them my roommate cries himself to sleep after watching FD's games. LOL, I do the same. Maybe I'm your roommate. Aaron?
Unfortunately not.  But I can commiserate very well with him. Send him my regards. Watching FD play nowadays is like getting my heart broken every single time. It's like his entire purpose in life now is to send me spiraling into an abyss of depression.
Ah, well. I hope he shapes up soon so that I don't feel like drowning myself anymore every time he loses.
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Sooo, all drama aside. Does anybody knows what this will mean for the future of the TSL players?
LOL, with all this drama people tend to forget the players. Personally I think Coach Lee either needs to explain himself or step down. From what it seems it was mainly the sponsors supporting the team.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
Even after he originally stole FD and Tester and everyone kinda just let it go and didn't make a big deal about it for the greater good of the growth of SC2 in Korea, Coach Lee was notorious for doing things like going ape shit bitching about very minuscule things such as how many players/which players can get to sit in the team area during matches, which left other coaches and GomTV staff wondering "what the fuck is wrong with this guy?"
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On August 05 2011 04:59 Rekrul wrote:
Even after he originally stole FD and Tester and everyone kinda just let it go and didn't make a big deal about it for the greater good of the growth of SC2 in Korea, Coach Lee was notorious for doing things like going ape shit bitching about very minuscule things such as how many players/which players can get to sit in the team area during matches, which left other coaches and GomTV staff wondering "what the fuck is wrong with this guy?"
Where did you hear that and seriously?
99% of the people here have a favorable impression of him (initially) because of Tastosis, but I'd love to hear other opinions.
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On August 05 2011 04:38 tl55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 04:31 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 04:27 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 04:22 Chargelot wrote:On August 05 2011 04:18 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 04:07 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 04:02 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 04:00 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 03:49 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 03:45 tl55555 wrote:
[quote]
To clear up your confusion, TSL was not legally wrong if the contract was ambiguous, that's how its comparable.
Actually TSL is still legally wrong. Exemption of a clause does not allow for open interpretation. In fact, it would be construed against the drafter of the contract, presumably TSL (contra preferentem). Again though, stop spewing bullshit, you're trying to defend a position that is clearly indefensible and it is recognized by most of the people here. I'm not going to bother repeating my arguments again... Me stop spewing bullshit? How about you stop spewing mumbo jumbo legal speak. People who try to impress by using legal speak and can't communicate a point in english -> unemployed I don't give a shit what the book says, what REALITY says is ambiguous contract + better lawyer wins. Please don't bother repeating your incorrect arguments again, you will be saving TL valuable bytes. How is that wrong or difficult to understand? "A contract is ambiguous when it is uncertain what the intent of the parties was and the contract is capable of more than one reasonable interpretation. Sometimes ambiguous terms can be explained by the admission of parol evidence. Also, Courts abide by the rule that an ambiguous contract is interpreted against the party who drafted it. In other words, the party who did not draft the contract will be given the benefit of the doubt so to speak. " -USLegal You know what else USLegal says? People are entitled to a fair trial. The person with more money who can hire better lawyers wins. Korea has more or less the same contract laws as the US and I was only using that as reference. Ironically, you contradict yourself with your 2nd and 3rd sentences a feat that is quite impressive given you have only written three sentences. Fair trial =/= more money, better lawyer, wins Not only are you a cynical person who seems to have no respect for our legal systems you also are quite poor at doing research. Give me a single example in which the courts ruled in favor of the author of an ambiguous contract. Side note, the more money argument doesn't really have that much to do with better lawyers it has more to do with that a protracted legal battle can last years costing upwards of millions of dollars. The party with the smaller bank is more likely to withdraw and settle rather than waste years in court. You're on trial for murder. It doesn't matter if you did it or not, but it looks really bad for you. You have an option: The one million dollar a day legal team of the best 8 lawyers in the country or A court appointed lawyer, who costs nothing to you, and has ~30 cases he is working on at the same time. Money means a lot. You realize those same court appointed lawyers are the ones who know the ins and outs of the courthouse, know the judges, know the district attorney, know the assistant district attorneys, and work just as hard as any other attorney because they also take on private clients and probably DONT want the public to feel they are terrible attorneys? Or that they dont want those same courthouses to think that they aren't professional? I'll take on one of the court appointed attorneys here who I know absolutely know this court houses ways, over someone who has no idea how it works and comes off as an asshat (All the out of county Dallas attorneys who dont even know how to file basic processes at the courthouse I'm at). Also, there's a thing called a jury. And just because a lawyer has 30 cases, doesn't mean he isn't taking the time to handle the case he is given. You don't think those same attorneys dont enjoy winning? Come on. yeah i find this hilarious too. i know some defense attorneys and they usually dont want to conclude contracts with criminals because they dont know where the money comes from and they might get in jail themselves if it was for example drug money. getting the money from the state might not be much and might take a long time but it usually is safe and clean money so they rather take that money. clean lawyers? What planet do you live on?
What you know about lawyers could be summed up in a paragraph at most, with a couple of sentences for change. Keep your inane comments to yourself instead of slandering an entire profession. Watching "Lincoln Lawyer" doesn't qualify you to commentate on us.
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EG took TSL puma now tsl is dying they are losing all there money sponsors and everything.......How can EG be that Scumful? does EG think they can get away with killing TSL?
User was banned for this post.
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On August 05 2011 05:01 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 04:59 Rekrul wrote:
Even after he originally stole FD and Tester and everyone kinda just let it go and didn't make a big deal about it for the greater good of the growth of SC2 in Korea, Coach Lee was notorious for doing things like going ape shit bitching about very minuscule things such as how many players/which players can get to sit in the team area during matches, which left other coaches and GomTV staff wondering "what the fuck is wrong with this guy?" Where did you hear that and seriously? 99% of the people here have a favorable impression of him (initially) because of Tastosis, but I'd love to hear other opinions.
I think that's the issue here is that those who follow sc2 scene know about Mr. Lee being a "good coach" was because of Tastosis. But you really can't blame them, they can't say "yeah he is so so coach" of course they will praise someone they know.
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On August 05 2011 05:01 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 04:59 Rekrul wrote:
Even after he originally stole FD and Tester and everyone kinda just let it go and didn't make a big deal about it for the greater good of the growth of SC2 in Korea, Coach Lee was notorious for doing things like going ape shit bitching about very minuscule things such as how many players/which players can get to sit in the team area during matches, which left other coaches and GomTV staff wondering "what the fuck is wrong with this guy?" Where did you hear that and seriously? 99% of the people here have a favorable impression of him (initially) because of Tastosis, but I'd love to hear other opinions.
Rekrul lives in Korea and is down with the shiznits so to speak.
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On August 05 2011 05:04 jimjimchoi wrote:
EG took TSL puma now tsl is dying they are losing all there money sponsors and everything.......How can EG be that Scumful? does EG think they can get away with killing TSL?
oh you
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TSL needs to be more sensitive about doing business in korea, they need to be respectful of the culture, their contracts and verbal obligations
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On August 05 2011 05:05 spybreak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 05:04 jimjimchoi wrote:
EG took TSL puma now tsl is dying they are losing all there money sponsors and everything.......How can EG be that Scumful? does EG think they can get away with killing TSL? oh you
Serious question is he trolling or just confused?
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On August 05 2011 05:03 PanzerKing wrote:What you know about lawyers could be summed up in a paragraph at most, with a couple of sentences for change. Keep your inane comments to yourself instead of slandering an entire profession. Watching "Lincoln Lawyer" doesn't qualify you to commentate on us.
I think you'll be hard pressed to find many people who think lawyers are generally morally upstanding people. Not saying they're correct, just have fun persuading people on this subject.
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On August 05 2011 05:01 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 04:59 Rekrul wrote:
Even after he originally stole FD and Tester and everyone kinda just let it go and didn't make a big deal about it for the greater good of the growth of SC2 in Korea, Coach Lee was notorious for doing things like going ape shit bitching about very minuscule things such as how many players/which players can get to sit in the team area during matches, which left other coaches and GomTV staff wondering "what the fuck is wrong with this guy?" Where did you hear that and seriously? 99% of the people here have a favorable impression of him (initially) because of Tastosis, but I'd love to hear other opinions.
I think it goes back to the time when Coach Lee was in MBC hero.
edit: keyword "I think"
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EPT
