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On July 27 2011 07:23 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 07:20 JinRohHANZO wrote:
Yeah, but question is : do we really want SC2 scene to go the same way the other sports did, with big money for main and only purpose ?
So sad... I know the fanboys have some petty delusions about some "fun gaming scene", but otherwise, yes, I'm pretty sure none of the actual players and teams involved mind money going their way. I'm also certain that you don't practice 6-8 hours a day for the "fun" of it. Nothing's stopping you from playing in your neighbourhood tourneys with $50 prize pools, though, so go right ahead.
I'm not really a fanboy, living in candyland and riding a unicorn all day long. My point is, of course SC2 is a real business nowadays and I'm pretty happy with that. Now, I think you can run a business without doing sneaky stuff, with ethic. Main difference.
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On July 27 2011 07:16 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 07:00 karpo wrote:
If you read the OP you'll see that they did discuss it weeks after the NASL without notifying the TSL coach. Puma is just a player and a kid, EG is supposed to be a serious business. Guess which one people are holding to a higher standard? AKA, respect means treat players like dirt and coaches should control every aspect of a player's life. Puma wanted to talk personally with the coach that he'd been with for years. Respect that. Puma wanted to take his career to EG. Respect that. Puma wanted to part-ways with TSL on amicable terms. Respect that. By all accounts, EG did right by Puma every step of the way, and Coach Lee had a rage-rant that made Puma the centre of an eSport controversy...which he later backtracked on. Funny how this whole "respect" thing actually works out, isn't it?
AKA? What does your first sentence have to do with anything i wrote? If you want to go there EG seems to have some control issues themselves with the whole SotG debacle.
You seem very invested in this, as both your post history and EG praise/Lee smacktalk show. Why?
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EG knew exactly what they were doing. PUMA wasnt on contract, but still had been a part of TSL. using the in house machines to practice, discussing tactics with team mates, eating food paid for prolly by the coach.
It's a clash in both culture and generation. In Korea you never EVER go behind people or cut corners when it comes to business discussions. Contract or not EG needed to go to the coach first.
You can't just piss all over someone for flipping out after you essentially flip him a cultural middle finger.
Coach Lee has been in the export scene for a while. He was around when loyalty and sense of unity and the love of Starcraft was the only thing that kept the scene going. PUMA obviously does not share the sentiments. The fact that his coach was paying for his food or working hard to get sponsors doesn't mean dick to him. He wants his money now.
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On July 27 2011 07:30 Lawliet wrote:
EG knew exactly what they were doing. PUMA wasnt on contract, but still had been a part of TSL. using the in house machines to practice, discussing tactics with team mates, eating food paid for prolly by the coach.
It's a clash in both culture and generation. In Korea you never EVER go behind people or cut corners when it comes to business discussions. Contract or not EG needed to go to the coach first.
You can't just piss all over someone for flipping out after you essentially flip him a cultural middle finger.
Coach Lee has been in the export scene for a while. He was around when loyalty and sense of unity and the love of Starcraft was the only thing that kept the scene going. PUMA obviously does not share the sentiments. The fact that his coach was paying for his food or working hard to get sponsors doesn't mean dick to him. He wants his money now.
I just can't believe this. Put yourself in Puma's shoes. You work for someone who gives you food and shelter to work in a profession you enjoy, but you get paid NOTHING. Then you get an offer to receive a salary and have more freedom. You would choose to stay with the first employer?
TSL wasn't working hard for Puma because they wanted the best for Puma. They were looking out for themselves and their own interests and knew that a great player like Puma would get them sponsors. TSL wanted their money.
I just don't see where this sentiment in which once a player joins a team, they should be loyal to that team for life. Puma was not contracted, and therefore was a free agent and should be expected to do what is best for him.
On July 27 2011 07:28 JinRohHANZO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 07:23 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 27 2011 07:20 JinRohHANZO wrote:
Yeah, but question is : do we really want SC2 scene to go the same way the other sports did, with big money for main and only purpose ?
So sad... I know the fanboys have some petty delusions about some "fun gaming scene", but otherwise, yes, I'm pretty sure none of the actual players and teams involved mind money going their way. I'm also certain that you don't practice 6-8 hours a day for the "fun" of it. Nothing's stopping you from playing in your neighbourhood tourneys with $50 prize pools, though, so go right ahead. I'm not really a fanboy, living in candyland and riding a unicorn all day long. My point is, of course SC2 is a real business nowadays and I'm pretty happy with that. Now, I think you can run a business without doing sneaky stuff, with ethic. Main difference.
It's oh so sneaky to inform a player of an offer and let the player discuss it with his team and also think about his decision first. =/
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A 19 years old boy (so maybe not so mature), without his coach, with no contract, during a foreign tourny, with pretty much no experience of business transactions ? Yeah, it looks quite sneaky to me.
EG should have contact his coach first...
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On July 27 2011 08:03 JinRohHANZO wrote:
A 19 years old boy (so maybe not so mature), without his coach, with no contract, during a foreign tourny, with pretty much no experience of business transactions ? Yeah, it looks quite sneaky to me.
EG should have contact his coach first...
Will you just stop already? PuMa is an adult and fully capable of making decisions like this himself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with EG going to the source himself when they want to find out if PuMa is interested.
EDIT: And I'd also like to point out that there's nothing sneaky about EG taking the most direct route possible to get what they wanted. Please refer to my previous post (the page before this one) before you post again.
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On July 27 2011 08:03 JinRohHANZO wrote:
A 19 years old boy (so maybe not so mature), without his coach, with no contract, during a foreign tourny, with pretty much no experience of business transactions ? Yeah, it looks quite sneaky to me.
EG should have contact his coach first...
Is his coach his father? What if Puma had been 30 instead of 19? And how does no contract and during a foreign tourney make it "sneaky". It was an offer. EG din't pressure Puma into anything. They simply informed him of what he would get if he were to join EG
And Puma is a 19 year old adult. No one can say how mature he is or isn't.
I could see it being considered sneaky to have Puma pressured into signing something immediately. But he wasn't. He was informed of what it would be like to be on EG.
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On July 27 2011 08:18 iamahydralisk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:03 JinRohHANZO wrote:
A 19 years old boy (so maybe not so mature), without his coach, with no contract, during a foreign tourny, with pretty much no experience of business transactions ? Yeah, it looks quite sneaky to me.
EG should have contact his coach first...
Will you just stop already? PuMa is an adult and fully capable of making decisions like this himself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with EG going to the source himself when they want to find out if PuMa is interested. EDIT: And I'd also like to point out that there's nothing sneaky about EG taking the most direct route possible to get what they wanted. Please refer to my previous post (the page before this one) before you post again.
this sort of narrow thinking is precisely why people have no respect for EG.
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On July 27 2011 08:25 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:18 iamahydralisk wrote:On July 27 2011 08:03 JinRohHANZO wrote:
A 19 years old boy (so maybe not so mature), without his coach, with no contract, during a foreign tourny, with pretty much no experience of business transactions ? Yeah, it looks quite sneaky to me.
EG should have contact his coach first...
Will you just stop already? PuMa is an adult and fully capable of making decisions like this himself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with EG going to the source himself when they want to find out if PuMa is interested. EDIT: And I'd also like to point out that there's nothing sneaky about EG taking the most direct route possible to get what they wanted. Please refer to my previous post (the page before this one) before you post again. this sort of narrow thinking is precisely why people have no respect for EG.
Wanna do everyone a favor and expound on that? One line inciting posts with no substance don't do anyone any good.
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On July 27 2011 08:27 iamahydralisk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:25 Shiori wrote:On July 27 2011 08:18 iamahydralisk wrote:On July 27 2011 08:03 JinRohHANZO wrote:
A 19 years old boy (so maybe not so mature), without his coach, with no contract, during a foreign tourny, with pretty much no experience of business transactions ? Yeah, it looks quite sneaky to me.
EG should have contact his coach first...
Will you just stop already? PuMa is an adult and fully capable of making decisions like this himself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with EG going to the source himself when they want to find out if PuMa is interested. EDIT: And I'd also like to point out that there's nothing sneaky about EG taking the most direct route possible to get what they wanted. Please refer to my previous post (the page before this one) before you post again. this sort of narrow thinking is precisely why people have no respect for EG. Wanna do everyone a favor and expound on that? One line inciting posts with no substance don't do anyone any good.
i've expounded on it upwards of 40 times. try reading the thread, and the other 5 threads. i've been in all of them, and EG acted grossly unprofessionally, regardless of these asinine arguments from personal liberty or what-have-you.
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On July 27 2011 08:28 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:27 iamahydralisk wrote:On July 27 2011 08:25 Shiori wrote:On July 27 2011 08:18 iamahydralisk wrote:On July 27 2011 08:03 JinRohHANZO wrote:
A 19 years old boy (so maybe not so mature), without his coach, with no contract, during a foreign tourny, with pretty much no experience of business transactions ? Yeah, it looks quite sneaky to me.
EG should have contact his coach first...
Will you just stop already? PuMa is an adult and fully capable of making decisions like this himself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with EG going to the source himself when they want to find out if PuMa is interested. EDIT: And I'd also like to point out that there's nothing sneaky about EG taking the most direct route possible to get what they wanted. Please refer to my previous post (the page before this one) before you post again. this sort of narrow thinking is precisely why people have no respect for EG. Wanna do everyone a favor and expound on that? One line inciting posts with no substance don't do anyone any good. i've expounded on it upwards of 40 times. try reading the thread, and the other 5 threads. i've been in all of them, and EG acted grossly unprofessionally, regardless of these asinine arguments from personal liberty or what-have-you.
Excuse me for not reading a 70 page thread to pick out a few posts by one person.
We obviously have different business ideals. You seem to want e-sports to be run on trust and friendship, but it just can't work that way. E-sports is a business and the business world we live in is a cutthroat one. I'm sorry if that displeases you, but it is the way it is. You shouldn't fault EG for operating as a business should.
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On July 27 2011 08:18 iamahydralisk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:03 JinRohHANZO wrote:
A 19 years old boy (so maybe not so mature), without his coach, with no contract, during a foreign tourny, with pretty much no experience of business transactions ? Yeah, it looks quite sneaky to me.
EG should have contact his coach first...
Will you just stop already? PuMa is an adult and fully capable of making decisions like this himself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with EG going to the source himself when they want to find out if PuMa is interested. EDIT: And I'd also like to point out that there's nothing sneaky about EG taking the most direct route possible to get what they wanted. Please refer to my previous post (the page before this one) before you post again.
The most direct route doesn't mean the better one...
AG took a decision there, I can (almost) respect that... but guess what ? All this shitstorm was quite predictable with this direct route you like so much.
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On July 27 2011 08:34 JinRohHANZO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:18 iamahydralisk wrote:On July 27 2011 08:03 JinRohHANZO wrote:
A 19 years old boy (so maybe not so mature), without his coach, with no contract, during a foreign tourny, with pretty much no experience of business transactions ? Yeah, it looks quite sneaky to me.
EG should have contact his coach first...
Will you just stop already? PuMa is an adult and fully capable of making decisions like this himself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with EG going to the source himself when they want to find out if PuMa is interested. EDIT: And I'd also like to point out that there's nothing sneaky about EG taking the most direct route possible to get what they wanted. Please refer to my previous post (the page before this one) before you post again. The most direct route doesn't mean the better one... AG took a decision there, I can (almost) respect that... but guess what ? All this shitstorm was quite predictable with this direct route you like so much.
Please explain how this shitstorm was at all predictable. If Coach Lee hadn't completely jumped the gun with his negative press, I virtually guarantee you we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.
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This is an endless discussion. Just stop.
What will remain is a stronger EG (skillwise) and a weaker EG (community-wise).
It's like a trade off.
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On July 27 2011 08:34 JinRohHANZO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:18 iamahydralisk wrote:On July 27 2011 08:03 JinRohHANZO wrote:
A 19 years old boy (so maybe not so mature), without his coach, with no contract, during a foreign tourny, with pretty much no experience of business transactions ? Yeah, it looks quite sneaky to me.
EG should have contact his coach first...
Will you just stop already? PuMa is an adult and fully capable of making decisions like this himself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with EG going to the source himself when they want to find out if PuMa is interested. EDIT: And I'd also like to point out that there's nothing sneaky about EG taking the most direct route possible to get what they wanted. Please refer to my previous post (the page before this one) before you post again. The most direct route doesn't mean the better one... AG took a decision there, I can (almost) respect that... but guess what ? All this shitstorm was quite predictable with this direct route you like so much.
Would their be a story here if say EG had attempted to recruit a player from Fnatic?
We don't know the most of the stories when player's changing teams. I'm sure the direct route is taken often, probably most of the time. The shit storm happened because Mr. Lee whined about it and got his side of the story first and EG unfortunately(and stupidly) remained silent on the matter too long.
Mr. Lee felt that one of his players was stolen from him when Puma really wasn't his in the first place. This isn't a business transaction and Puma wasn't contracted or obliged to do anything.
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On July 27 2011 08:39 xN.07)MaK wrote:
This is an endless discussion. Just stop.
What will remain is a stronger EG (skillwise) and a weaker EG (community-wise).
It's like a trade off.
The majority of people really don't care. Most of the people who are hating on them hated EG in the first place.
The only reason they would be weaker community-wise is because of attacking Milkis, which they should be criticized for
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On July 27 2011 08:34 iamahydralisk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:28 Shiori wrote:On July 27 2011 08:27 iamahydralisk wrote:On July 27 2011 08:25 Shiori wrote:On July 27 2011 08:18 iamahydralisk wrote:On July 27 2011 08:03 JinRohHANZO wrote:
A 19 years old boy (so maybe not so mature), without his coach, with no contract, during a foreign tourny, with pretty much no experience of business transactions ? Yeah, it looks quite sneaky to me.
EG should have contact his coach first...
Will you just stop already? PuMa is an adult and fully capable of making decisions like this himself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with EG going to the source himself when they want to find out if PuMa is interested. EDIT: And I'd also like to point out that there's nothing sneaky about EG taking the most direct route possible to get what they wanted. Please refer to my previous post (the page before this one) before you post again. this sort of narrow thinking is precisely why people have no respect for EG. Wanna do everyone a favor and expound on that? One line inciting posts with no substance don't do anyone any good. i've expounded on it upwards of 40 times. try reading the thread, and the other 5 threads. i've been in all of them, and EG acted grossly unprofessionally, regardless of these asinine arguments from personal liberty or what-have-you. Excuse me for not reading a 70 page thread to pick out a few posts by one person. We obviously have different business ideals. You seem to want e-sports to be run on trust and friendship, but it just can't work that way. E-sports is a business and the business world we live in is a cutthroat one. I'm sorry if that displeases you, but it is the way it is. You shouldn't fault EG for operating as a business should.
Hardly. Not every business is run by Ayn Rand.
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That is one heck of a write up... could have summarized in 3-4 paragraphs instead of 18. loL
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See, it wouldn't bother me so much if Sir Alex simply said "EG is a business, and we will do whatever it takes to succeed, and we do not care about the feelings of others." But, he doesn't say that, he spends 18 paragraphs ducking, dodging, and deflecting. I find this passive-aggressive attitude much more annoying than just being straightforwardly greedy and ruthless.
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On July 27 2011 09:26 Random321321 wrote:
See, it wouldn't bother me so much if Sir Alex simply said "EG is a business, and we will do whatever it takes to succeed, and we do not care about the feelings of others." But, he doesn't say that, he spends 18 paragraphs ducking, dodging, and deflecting. I find this passive-aggressive attitude much more annoying than just being straightforwardly greedy and ruthless.
Definitely agree with this. Just be honest.. :/
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EPT
