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On July 23 2011 13:00 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 10:25 Goldfish wrote:On July 23 2011 10:21 LastDance wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to wake up and realise their strict licensing of SC2 in Korea is stunting its growth tremendously.
mad respect to SangHo and Clide. Agreed. One league (where competition is just huge with only 32 players getting much out of it) is just too little. Blizzard, KeSPA, and GOMTV need to all team up and work together (KeSPA may be willing to host an SC2 league if Blizzard allows them to and helps sponsor the prize money). No really KeSPA isn't that bad >.>. KeSPA would need to change a bit though in terms of how they deal with players, because SC2 pros are not used to, and probably do not want such a strict and controlling overseer. Would KeSPA do that?
Already did for WC3 years ago. And most SC2 pros are used to it becasue the vast majority of them are former BW progamers/practice partners.
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On July 23 2011 10:07 Sylvr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 09:06 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On July 23 2011 09:01 Sylvr wrote:On July 23 2011 07:49 TYJ.Aoy wrote:On July 23 2011 07:41 Sylvr wrote:On July 22 2011 12:34 GTR wrote:
I am sure you tried to keep him from leaving. What kind of conversation have you two had during this whole process?
That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams. I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this, but he was adamant that he would be able to live through this negativity. He felt bad about his decision and told us that he knew a lot about the team (EG) already. Since we are bound to run into each other again in the future, we decided to part ways amicably.
This really gets me into a rage... There wouldn't have been a fraction of the "negativity" that has occurred if Lee hadn't immediately started giving his sob story about how "the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", and painting EG as some big evil corporation etc. Then he goes on talking about players giving him back their salaries and stipends to seal the sympathy vote. If you truly care for your players, then you'll be happy for them when they find a better situation for themselves, and grateful to the people who provided it. It makes me wonder if he even believes it himself. I don't know what makes me more sick, Coach Lee's statements about the situation, or the majority of the communities reaction to it. I ponder if you would do differently and be all quiet about it, I know I wouldn't, it makes me wonder if you even believe yourself. I'm too cynical to ever find myself in such a situation, so I honestly couldn't tell you. In the end, we're all just armchair analysts who can't do more than speculate (unless you can read minds; I know I can't). I just know that the whole situation reminds me of Fox News with the way so many are positively eating up the spin that was put on this story (Coach Lee's spin, that is), and not thinking critically. Maybe I would be pissed. Maybe there are even more reasons for him to be pissed than we even know about (I could picture them getting some juicy sponsorship offers after Puma's performance in NASL, which may have even brought them out of the hole [/speculate]), but if I truly cared for the players the way Lee says he does, I would keep my mouth shut so this shitstorm wouldn't consume "the player I raised". His affection seems pretty shallow to me; approximately as deep as his wallet, apparently. Unlike many, I'm going to have reasonable expectations about humans and recognize that they're that - human. It's perfectly reasonable for him to be emotionally upset and a sense of betrayal after Puma leaves. This isn't some cultural analysis - it's a freaking universal understanding of team membership and friendship that is cultivated by participation in a team. And before you go "but no betrayal, there was no contract!" - you don't need a contract to have a relationship, you don't contract any of your friends but it's obvious that you can feel betrayed when friends suddenly ditch you, for instance. You're assuming an awful lot about human nature. The stories and articles about people giving up opportunities and making sacrifices for their teams and friends make headlines and the Silver Screen because they aren't the norm. For every guy in a platoon that jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, there are a dozen or more that didn't (and likely countless platoons where NOBODY did where everyone just got a body full of shrapnel). There are too many separate issues regarding this situation, and people are getting them all mixed up. Here are the issues I can come up with, and the conclusion I've personally reached about them: 1. Was it wrong for Puma to leave TSL?My answer is no. There is nothing wrong with trying to better your own situation. If you find a better job, nobody can blame you for taking it, even if you've been with your current company for years. It's not betrayal, and that has nothing to do with contracts. You can be friends with people without being on the same team. 2. Was EG's method of acquiring Puma dirty or underhanded?After hearing Alex's explanation of what transpired on his end, I don't think they did anything "wrong". I'm not even sure they made a mistake. They had no way of knowing that Puma would wait so long to talk to Coach Lee about it (I believe it was said that EG approached Puma when he made it to the Ro4, NOT after he won, and he didn't say anything till after GSTL.), and they were NOT obligated to talk to Coach Lee themselves (and perhaps didn't realize that they should have, though I'm not sure on that part). Puma supposedly wanted to break the news to Lee himself, and EG obliged him. If it was a mistake, then lesson learned. They now know for next time. I don't see anything here that screams "Big Evil Corporation nomnomnom!" 3. Was EG's (Alex's) reaction to this publicity correct?I think everyone agrees that it was handled very poorly. He was late to field a response, and when he finally did, in a medium that was probably the very best possible scenario to make things clear, he digressed to a subject that really should have been saved for another time. He shot himself in the foot on the home stretch of what would have otherwise been as good a recovery as he could have hoped for. 4. Is TSL's situation a sad sad story?It sure is. Losing players left and right. Having trouble keeping sponsors and quickly running out of money. Your first big tournament result is followed by some unfortunate news. It's like they were finally on an upswing, and they hit a brick wall. It really is tragic, but one thing I know is that the source of their misfortune is not Puma, and it isn't EG. Lee's coaching has been called into question. TSL's skill level may be to blame. Perhaps it's the Korean SC2 scene in general that is the core of their problems. Or maybe a hundred other things that none of us have any clue about. Coach Lee and TSL are doing an excellent job of painting themselves as the victims, and maybe they think they are, but when I see stories of the players giving back their salaries and stipends to help a faltering team, I don't get all warm and fuzzy inside, and I don't see heroes in the making; I see naive kids who don't know the value of themselves and their money, and incompetent adults who have to be bailed out by their charges.
When has lee's coaching been called into question? and why? i think they asked that question in the interview but i think it has to do with the fact that he couldnt fulfill his promise to FD and tester, and i dont really see what he could have done about that. I dont think its actually his coaching ability it has been stated many times that he is a superb coach that has been in the business for quite a long time.
Artosis and Tasteless have also given some background on him a few times in the previous GSTL's seems like hes been in the business for a long time and was a pro player himself whoops.Lee or something i beleive.
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It's funny because let's face it, SangHo and Clide are the two TSL members that Tasteless and Artosis both know personally and talk about all the time, it's great that we're hearing this sort of information about them "leak out".
This deepens their story pretty well, and that's what being a fan is about
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On July 22 2011 13:59 ragealot wrote:
I feel as though people glossed over the most important part of the interview by praising Clide/Sangho. " If PuMa was placed in Code S, I believe he would not have taken the deal. From the Korean player’s perspective, getting into Code S is hard, and winning the GSL is even harder, thus the door of opportunity is very narrow." Guess what the former two have that Puma doesn't. One worthwhile league is not enough, especially with such a top heavy prize pool.
What are you trying to say in this post? Please clarify your point, I don't get it 
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On July 23 2011 15:49 OPL3SA2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:59 ragealot wrote:
I feel as though people glossed over the most important part of the interview by praising Clide/Sangho. " If PuMa was placed in Code S, I believe he would not have taken the deal. From the Korean player’s perspective, getting into Code S is hard, and winning the GSL is even harder, thus the door of opportunity is very narrow." Guess what the former two have that Puma doesn't. One worthwhile league is not enough, especially with such a top heavy prize pool. What are you trying to say in this post? Please clarify your point, I don't get it
That the lack of opportunity in Korea helped drive Puma to EG.
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On July 23 2011 16:05 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 15:49 OPL3SA2 wrote:On July 22 2011 13:59 ragealot wrote:
I feel as though people glossed over the most important part of the interview by praising Clide/Sangho. " If PuMa was placed in Code S, I believe he would not have taken the deal. From the Korean player’s perspective, getting into Code S is hard, and winning the GSL is even harder, thus the door of opportunity is very narrow." Guess what the former two have that Puma doesn't. One worthwhile league is not enough, especially with such a top heavy prize pool. What are you trying to say in this post? Please clarify your point, I don't get it That the lack of opportunity in Korea helped drive Puma to EG.
This problem has a lot facets to it.
Blizzards handling of SC2 in Korea
Gretechs monopoly
KeSPA's negativity towards SC2
Semi-stable success of BW as competition for "Starcraft" fans and funds.
etc.
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I was wondering if anyone has links for TSL video tutorials that Coach Lee stated? Thanks in advance.
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EG saw Puma as an opportunity which they took. The reason they didn't approach the coach was because it would have decreased their chances of acquiring Puma. Contract or no, Puma was on the team TSL, where he was brought up as a player. AG is a great talker and he can spin stuff all he wants by hiding behind his business models, but what EG did was underhanded.
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Well, it's PuMa's decision, but I think he really pulled a dick move on his team.
Not a very nice move by EG as well, it seems to me as if they purposely tried to avoid the coach.
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. Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport.
As long as u keep a game inside 1 country (with 1-2 exceptions), that's not an esport, that's a big lan party. If u want to support SC2 (a global game) as an e-sport, and actually want to get a fanbase, teams in korea have to stop thinking "just Korea". As more and more u will go outside and play NASL MLG etc etc, not only will the skill of the overall planet go up (foreigners playing with kr's) but the fanbase will shoot through the sky and u will be more appreciated.
It's a mentality koreans have to get over, GSL is good now, but in 1 year the rest will be much better...and GSL will slowly turn into a very small competition.
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On July 23 2011 18:41 ReboundEU wrote:Show nested quote +. Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport. As long as u keep a game inside 1 country (with 1-2 exceptions), that's not an esport, that's a big lan party. If u want to support SC2 (a global game) as an e-sport, and actually want to get a fanbase, teams in korea have to stop thinking "just Korea". As more and more u will go outside and play NASL MLG etc etc, not only will the skill of the overall planet go up (foreigners playing with kr's) but the fanbase will shoot through the sky and u will be more appreciated. It's a mentality koreans have to get over, GSL is good now, but in 1 year the rest will be much better...and GSL will slowly turn into a very small competition.
Seriously, do you actually know what you are saying?
BW is doing just fine and its just Korea. So BW is just a big lan pary to you? Seriously, you SC2 kids need to learn history a bit before pulling bullshit like that. I hope SC2 could one day be as big as BW. But saying its is only Esports if it is a global game is so stupid. That is like completely ignoring established BW scene in Korea. SC2 would not be what it is today if the BW scene didnot exist.
If SC2 one day could be as big as BW in Korea, Korean SC2 wont need to go to foreign tournaments to compete. The skill gap (between Kr and foreigners) will just be bigger and GSL at that time will be better than any other foreign tournaments instead of becoming small like you said. Please look at BW and WCG to know.
Posts like yours are not helping so please don't post.
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Thank you very much, I appreciate the link ^^
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United States368 Posts
If you were in Puma's shoes wouldn't you be looking out for your own financial well-being? Not like SC2 is the most stable career.
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PUMA it sounds like made the right decision. TSL is obviously struggling and had several internal conflicts with many of its big names leaving also they financially can barely support there players just basically paying room and board. I highly doubt they can afford to send players all over the world to different tourneys with out the tourneys themselves paying for it (NASL travel stipend being an example). Puma could stay with TSL and keep trying to get through the soul crushingly difficult code A qualifiers or he could join EG and still try to qualify but have many more opportunity's to showcase his skills at foreign tourneys.
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awesome interview... thx 4 sharing
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On July 23 2011 19:31 DCWasabi wrote:
If you were in Puma's shoes wouldn't you be looking out for your own financial well-being? Not like SC2 is the most stable career.
Especially in Korea, where you make no money unless you can squeeze into code S, which is extremely hard to do because there are 100+ amazing players and only 32 "money spots"
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On July 23 2011 19:38 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 19:31 DCWasabi wrote:
If you were in Puma's shoes wouldn't you be looking out for your own financial well-being? Not like SC2 is the most stable career. Especially in Korea, where you make no money unless you can squeeze into code S, which is extremely hard to do because there are 100+ amazing players and only 32 "money spots"
And it's only taken 7 months to weed out the players that really shouldn't have been there.
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TSL will live after losing this guy. It was a bigger deal when TesteR and Fruitdealer left to me. PuMa is good, but Fruitdealer and Tester (and CLIIIIIIIIDE) made the team.
No one even knew who PuMa was before the NASL, or even the GSTL.
But now that he won a title everyone starts shittin' bricks. I think this is great for the foreign e-sports and e-sports in general, as now EG has one of the best practice terrans in the world, and that will help their whole team become that much stronger.
Can't wait to see this kid vs IdrA on sc2rep.com
MAKE IT HAPPEN INCONTROL
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EPT
