|
On July 23 2011 08:50 kakaman wrote:
The question is, why was Coach Lee in charge of negotiations with EG? Does TSL not have a manager/CEO? Just like how Sir Scoots didn't handle negotiations for EG, there's no reason a coach should handle player situations other than play. No wonder he got hosed.
But EG didn't approach anyone except PuMa. And I think Coach Lee is in charge of that anyways, I think the term Coach is more of a manager in his case. But either way, no one from TSL other than PuMa was approached by EG.
|
Make Coach Lee fanbase, he seems like a great coach! gl to TSL in the future
|
On July 23 2011 07:49 TYJ.Aoy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 07:41 Sylvr wrote:On July 22 2011 12:34 GTR wrote:
I am sure you tried to keep him from leaving. What kind of conversation have you two had during this whole process?
That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams. I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this, but he was adamant that he would be able to live through this negativity. He felt bad about his decision and told us that he knew a lot about the team (EG) already. Since we are bound to run into each other again in the future, we decided to part ways amicably.
This really gets me into a rage... There wouldn't have been a fraction of the "negativity" that has occurred if Lee hadn't immediately started giving his sob story about how "the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", and painting EG as some big evil corporation etc. Then he goes on talking about players giving him back their salaries and stipends to seal the sympathy vote. If you truly care for your players, then you'll be happy for them when they find a better situation for themselves, and grateful to the people who provided it. It makes me wonder if he even believes it himself. I don't know what makes me more sick, Coach Lee's statements about the situation, or the majority of the communities reaction to it. I ponder if you would do differently and be all quiet about it, I know I wouldn't, it makes me wonder if you even believe yourself.
I'm too cynical to ever find myself in such a situation, so I honestly couldn't tell you. In the end, we're all just armchair analysts who can't do more than speculate (unless you can read minds; I know I can't). I just know that the whole situation reminds me of Fox News with the way so many are positively eating up the spin that was put on this story (Coach Lee's spin, that is), and not thinking critically.
Maybe I would be pissed. Maybe there are even more reasons for him to be pissed than we even know about (I could picture them getting some juicy sponsorship offers after Puma's performance in NASL, which may have even brought them out of the hole [/speculate]), but if I truly cared for the players the way Lee says he does, I would keep my mouth shut so this shitstorm wouldn't consume "the player I raised". His affection seems pretty shallow to me; approximately as deep as his wallet, apparently.
|
On July 23 2011 08:58 shinyA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 08:50 kakaman wrote:
The question is, why was Coach Lee in charge of negotiations with EG? Does TSL not have a manager/CEO? Just like how Sir Scoots didn't handle negotiations for EG, there's no reason a coach should handle player situations other than play. No wonder he got hosed. But EG didn't approach anyone except PuMa. And I think Coach Lee is in charge of that anyways, I think the term Coach is more of a manager in his case. But either way, no one from TSL other than PuMa was approached by EG.
Sure but I think if you had a more saavy leader on the business side, he would try to perhaps draft a contract with Puma (since he still hasn't signed with EG yet), with a buyout clause. At least that way they get something in return rather than going empty handed in the buyout. Coach Lee keeps talking about losing sponsors and the difficulty securing money, I can't imagine a more seasoned businessman getting hosed like this.
|
On July 23 2011 09:01 Sylvr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 07:49 TYJ.Aoy wrote:On July 23 2011 07:41 Sylvr wrote:On July 22 2011 12:34 GTR wrote:
I am sure you tried to keep him from leaving. What kind of conversation have you two had during this whole process?
That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams. I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this, but he was adamant that he would be able to live through this negativity. He felt bad about his decision and told us that he knew a lot about the team (EG) already. Since we are bound to run into each other again in the future, we decided to part ways amicably.
This really gets me into a rage... There wouldn't have been a fraction of the "negativity" that has occurred if Lee hadn't immediately started giving his sob story about how "the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", and painting EG as some big evil corporation etc. Then he goes on talking about players giving him back their salaries and stipends to seal the sympathy vote. If you truly care for your players, then you'll be happy for them when they find a better situation for themselves, and grateful to the people who provided it. It makes me wonder if he even believes it himself. I don't know what makes me more sick, Coach Lee's statements about the situation, or the majority of the communities reaction to it. I ponder if you would do differently and be all quiet about it, I know I wouldn't, it makes me wonder if you even believe yourself. I'm too cynical to ever find myself in such a situation, so I honestly couldn't tell you. In the end, we're all just armchair analysts who can't do more than speculate (unless you can read minds; I know I can't). I just know that the whole situation reminds me of Fox News with the way so many are positively eating up the spin that was put on this story (Coach Lee's spin, that is), and not thinking critically. Maybe I would be pissed. Maybe there are even more reasons for him to be pissed than we even know about (I could picture them getting some juicy sponsorship offers after Puma's performance in NASL, which may have even brought them out of the hole [/speculate]), but if I truly cared for the players the way Lee says he does, I would keep my mouth shut so this shitstorm wouldn't consume "the player I raised". His affection seems pretty shallow to me; approximately as deep as his wallet, apparently.
Unlike many, I'm going to have reasonable expectations about humans and recognize that they're that - human. It's perfectly reasonable for him to be emotionally upset and a sense of betrayal after Puma leaves. This isn't some cultural analysis - it's a freaking universal understanding of team membership and friendship that is cultivated by participation in a team. And before you go "but no betrayal, there was no contract!" - you don't need a contract to have a relationship, you don't contract any of your friends but it's obvious that you can feel betrayed when friends suddenly ditch you, for instance.
|
On July 23 2011 09:05 kakaman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 08:58 shinyA wrote:On July 23 2011 08:50 kakaman wrote:
The question is, why was Coach Lee in charge of negotiations with EG? Does TSL not have a manager/CEO? Just like how Sir Scoots didn't handle negotiations for EG, there's no reason a coach should handle player situations other than play. No wonder he got hosed. But EG didn't approach anyone except PuMa. And I think Coach Lee is in charge of that anyways, I think the term Coach is more of a manager in his case. But either way, no one from TSL other than PuMa was approached by EG. Sure but I think if you had a more saavy leader on the business side, he would try to perhaps draft a contract with Puma (since he still hasn't signed with EG yet), with a buyout clause. At least that way they get something in return rather than going empty handed in the buyout. Coach Lee keeps talking about losing sponsors and the difficulty securing money, I can't imagine a more seasoned businessman getting hosed like this.
Well a lot of it has to do with SC2 in Korea not being near the size of SC1. When you have such a competitor for sponsors in Korea it must be hard. Why would a sponsor want to sponsor an SC2 team over an SC1 team in Korea? It seems most teams are having trouble and that's why you see things like FXO buying out fOu.
|
On July 23 2011 08:56 shinyA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 08:43 Kich wrote:
I don't really understand what people think is keeping Puma on TSL when they don't..pay him. He's good, he's very, very good. And they don't pay him.
I don't understand how the reaction is: "Wow the people that took him are assholes!", when the reality of the situation is the people that he left clearly didn't respect his talent or ability and he left for people who do. Why is that not a good thing for everyone but TSL and why are people caring much for TSL at all at this point?
From what I understand, every great player has left them. This makes four. This isn't an isolated incident, clearly something is going on that would result in four people leaving the team in such a small period of time.
Other players were made offers by "foreign" teams (really, can we stop saying foreign when referring to ourselves in our own country?) in TSL and they didn't accept. They likely didn't accept because their offers weren't very good, otherwise they'd be gone. If they stayed out of some fanciful pride of team loyalty, they aren't taking their career very seriously. The idea is to move up and get better, not sit and stagnate. This is why I think it was such a shady move by EG, when you have a team like TSL who is trying to make SC2 in Korea as big as SC1, they are giving a house, practice partners, food, exposure, etc to players like PuMa and EG doesn't even have the courtesy to talk to the team? You don't hand out a card saying "we'd like to sign you" to the player, you talk to the team's management first.
But that's kind of the issue, you don't talk to the team's management first. If anything, that would actually be insulting. You would all have the exact same reaction if Coach Lee publicly got pissed that they didn't even talk to Puma first.
Because really, that's exactly WHAT you do and that's exactly what has been being done. You approach the player and tell them you'd like to sign them and that player decides what to do.
You don't get a job offer from your own boss from some other company that contacted your boss, you get a job offer directly from that company and you give your 2 weeks and move on.
Like I mentioned before--where was this massive public outcry when Sheth and QXC left ROOT? When FXO did not ask Catz and Drewbie's permission to buy out their players, Sheth and QXC left on their own terms in their own ways. Why is that not objectionable but because wise-old Mister Miyagi is losing his Karate Kid over the exact same thing this is suddenly a huge fucking deal?
|
On July 23 2011 08:58 shinyA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 08:50 kakaman wrote:
The question is, why was Coach Lee in charge of negotiations with EG? Does TSL not have a manager/CEO? Just like how Sir Scoots didn't handle negotiations for EG, there's no reason a coach should handle player situations other than play. No wonder he got hosed. But EG didn't approach anyone except PuMa. And I think Coach Lee is in charge of that anyways, I think the term Coach is more of a manager in his case. But either way, no one from TSL other than PuMa was approached by EG.
You don't approach other people than the player when they have no contract to follow because it's assumed they are able to do what they want without outside permission.
|
On July 23 2011 07:26 sleepyhorse wrote:
...this is just stupid. Puma was not a signed player. EG offered him something that his old team could not. It would have been a horrible decision if Puma let the offer pass. Lee can only blame himself for not contracting his players. There is a reason why all of his top players have left the team. I just cant wrap my brain around people getting all worked up over this. This is a business and the managers and fans need to understand that. Also the players need to be thought of as individuals and not team property. EG didn't "steal" anything from TSL, the player made the decision to leave in order to better his career. I am happy for both Puma and EG and I hope TSL can get back on track and continue to be a competitive starcraft 2 team.
The reason some people are getting worked up over this is because they don't understand business, TSL included. If you don't have a guy on contract, you should expect him to leave when he is given a better offer. This is how the world is guys, wake up!
Also, TSL needs to stop embarrassing themselves by whining and pointing fingers. They know why they are losing players. If they don't then their demise was inevitable.
|
On July 23 2011 09:12 Kich wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 08:56 shinyA wrote:On July 23 2011 08:43 Kich wrote:
I don't really understand what people think is keeping Puma on TSL when they don't..pay him. He's good, he's very, very good. And they don't pay him.
I don't understand how the reaction is: "Wow the people that took him are assholes!", when the reality of the situation is the people that he left clearly didn't respect his talent or ability and he left for people who do. Why is that not a good thing for everyone but TSL and why are people caring much for TSL at all at this point?
From what I understand, every great player has left them. This makes four. This isn't an isolated incident, clearly something is going on that would result in four people leaving the team in such a small period of time.
Other players were made offers by "foreign" teams (really, can we stop saying foreign when referring to ourselves in our own country?) in TSL and they didn't accept. They likely didn't accept because their offers weren't very good, otherwise they'd be gone. If they stayed out of some fanciful pride of team loyalty, they aren't taking their career very seriously. The idea is to move up and get better, not sit and stagnate. This is why I think it was such a shady move by EG, when you have a team like TSL who is trying to make SC2 in Korea as big as SC1, they are giving a house, practice partners, food, exposure, etc to players like PuMa and EG doesn't even have the courtesy to talk to the team? You don't hand out a card saying "we'd like to sign you" to the player, you talk to the team's management first. But that's kind of the issue, you don't talk to the team's management first. If anything, that would actually be insulting. You would all have the exact same reaction if Coach Lee publicly got pissed that they didn't even talk to Puma first. Because really, that's exactly WHAT you do and that's exactly what has been being done. You approach the player and tell them you'd like to sign them and that player decides what to do. You don't get a job offer from your own boss from some other company that contacted your boss, you get a job offer directly from that company and you give your 2 weeks and move on. Like I mentioned before--where was this massive public outcry when Sheth and QXC left ROOT? When FXO did not ask Catz and Drewbie's permission to buy out their players, Sheth and QXC left on their own terms in their own ways. Why is that not objectionable but because wise-old Mister Miyagi is losing his Karate Kid over the exact same thing this is suddenly a huge fucking deal?
Thank you so much for this post. SC2 players are employees of their teams, and their teams are the employer.
Come on guys, really...
|
Is there a statement from EG about all this yet? And very good interview great response from the TSL Coach im very impressed by this
|
So nice to read such a long statement and no bashing to EG whatsoever. In contrast, yesterday's WoC.
Speaks for itself.
|
On July 23 2011 09:31 xN.07)MaK wrote:
So nice to read such a long statement and no bashing to EG whatsoever. In contrast, yesterday's WoC.
Speaks for itself.
So nice to read such a long statement and no bashing to EG whatsoever. In contrast,
yesterday's Twitter post from Coach Lee.
Speaks for itself.
|
On July 23 2011 09:18 NightAngel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 09:12 Kich wrote:On July 23 2011 08:56 shinyA wrote:On July 23 2011 08:43 Kich wrote:
I don't really understand what people think is keeping Puma on TSL when they don't..pay him. He's good, he's very, very good. And they don't pay him.
I don't understand how the reaction is: "Wow the people that took him are assholes!", when the reality of the situation is the people that he left clearly didn't respect his talent or ability and he left for people who do. Why is that not a good thing for everyone but TSL and why are people caring much for TSL at all at this point?
From what I understand, every great player has left them. This makes four. This isn't an isolated incident, clearly something is going on that would result in four people leaving the team in such a small period of time.
Other players were made offers by "foreign" teams (really, can we stop saying foreign when referring to ourselves in our own country?) in TSL and they didn't accept. They likely didn't accept because their offers weren't very good, otherwise they'd be gone. If they stayed out of some fanciful pride of team loyalty, they aren't taking their career very seriously. The idea is to move up and get better, not sit and stagnate. This is why I think it was such a shady move by EG, when you have a team like TSL who is trying to make SC2 in Korea as big as SC1, they are giving a house, practice partners, food, exposure, etc to players like PuMa and EG doesn't even have the courtesy to talk to the team? You don't hand out a card saying "we'd like to sign you" to the player, you talk to the team's management first. But that's kind of the issue, you don't talk to the team's management first. If anything, that would actually be insulting. You would all have the exact same reaction if Coach Lee publicly got pissed that they didn't even talk to Puma first. Because really, that's exactly WHAT you do and that's exactly what has been being done. You approach the player and tell them you'd like to sign them and that player decides what to do. You don't get a job offer from your own boss from some other company that contacted your boss, you get a job offer directly from that company and you give your 2 weeks and move on. Like I mentioned before--where was this massive public outcry when Sheth and QXC left ROOT? When FXO did not ask Catz and Drewbie's permission to buy out their players, Sheth and QXC left on their own terms in their own ways. Why is that not objectionable but because wise-old Mister Miyagi is losing his Karate Kid over the exact same thing this is suddenly a huge fucking deal? Thank you so much for this post. SC2 players are employees of their teams, and their teams are the employer. Come on guys, really...
I'm sorry, I can't figure out if you were being sarcastic with me or not--because that is accurate. The players are employed by their teams.
|
I feel bad for TSL and the Korean side of things. The EG handled this in an awful way, Best of luck to TSL and Puma I hope all goes well for them.
I'm sure the Korean SC2 association is going to put a stop to this. I thought they put a stop to pros streaming and I still see pros streaming which is kind of weird.
|
On July 23 2011 09:36 NuKedUFirst wrote:
I feel bad for TSL and the Korean side of things. The EG handled this in an awful way, Best of luck to TSL and Puma I hope all goes well for them.
I'm sure the Korean SC2 association is going to put a stop to this. I thought they put a stop to pros streaming and I still see pros streaming which is kind of weird.
what makes you think they put a stop to pro's streaming? if so thats such bullshit as I love watching the korean pro's stream.
|
On July 22 2011 12:52 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 12:50 oxxo wrote:On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote:
I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality. Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this. Yes, they treat one another like extended family. There is more meaning there. KeSPA is going to have a really hard time turning SC2 around once they get involved. Blizzard handled the product very poorly there.
Before this thread I was thinking about how hard Code B, Code A, etc is and how it'd be neat if there was another big league. What... if... KeSPA helped out (they're kind of cool with Blizzard now sort of >.>)?
KeSPA and GOMTV team up! No seriously someone should tell Blizzard to allow and tell KeSPA to set up a SC2 league or something.
I agree I feel the SC2 scene is too small in Korea with only one major tournament and with BW competing with SC2 but I think they can still coexist (just like two different sports on TV).
|
Maybe machine can finally get out of Masters League with a good Terran practice partner.
|
|
|
I find it hilarious that people are all d'awwing over this terrible "boohoo pity us poor TSL victims" sob story when instead Coach Lee should be apologizing for causing all this controversy cause he was mad and did something incredibly unprofessional. No wonder their team is going down the shitter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
