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On July 23 2011 06:54 phuzi0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:41 Vansetsu wrote:
econd, it's arguable whether EG should have approached TSL and not Puma first to begin with (as that kind of makes the whole "going over pumas head thing irreverent, and, i don't know, maybe shows some respect to TSL as well?). Regardless, most people think it's a lousy thing to do, TSL is not just a training camp, it is a team. TSL trained a great player, EG bought him out from under TSL. Like I said, it's an arguable way to do business. But most people who feel like I do think it's a pretty dirty thing to do, as TSL looses a friend and a teammate, Puma probably looses the training environment that made him good in the first place, and EG just gets to act like it has some merit for "fielding" a player, of whom they didn't do anything of merit to foster his ability. I personally think on 20 levels that's just bad, but that's just mine an obviously some others opinion.
That is ridiculous. You do not talk to a team before even fishing to find out if the player is interested in leaving the team for yours. If Mr Lee hadn't came out crying publicly I'm sure EG would have contacted him to try to work out a buyout even though Puma isn't even contracted. Mr Lee shit all over Puma and EG by threatening there would be backlash and then crying about it to create the backlash. Everybody would be excited about this if he had kept his mouth shut and waited for the private talks to happen.
Like people have said on both sides of the issue, it is a cultural thing. Mr Lee did not "shit all over Puma and EG" he warned him there might be a korean ,and now, because of it, foreign backlash when they found out how this trade went down.
"Manager Lee noted that "It is disappointing that we have to make a decision like this, but it's extremely objectionable [T/N: displeasing, disgusting, etc] that Evil Geniuses would ignore the coaches completely and directly go talk to the player"
""He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this""
Albeit, that system is at the least a simple contract, but it does not change the fact that this is not the practice for SC2 teams in Korea, and many over there are finding it offensive.
Furthermore, as many people have mentioned, even in the OP of this interview with Mr Lee, the Korean SC2 scene is hard right now with only one major tournament.-- While this may be true, it is the Korean scene that is putting in the work to build strong players. Tournaments results, and even the self evidence of the interest in Korean trained players shows this. Cutting us off from the Korean scene, and/or having the Korean scene loose interest or popularity, greatly influences things over here, and the caliber of high level SC2 everywhere.
I don't know about you, but I would much rather watch a game with the caliber of Bomber vs DRG than of something like KawaiiRice vs Destiny in the near future.
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On July 23 2011 06:39 Craminit wrote:
Wow, he handling it a lot better then others would. If we saw the coach of FXO or Slayers get a player stolen I think we would be seeing a much more heated response.
Stealing unsigned players?
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bad economy and the small Korean SC2 fan base compared to SC1. Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport.
The monopoly of GomTv is preventing the growth of SC2 in S. Korea. :|
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who ever did the interview is a sneaky pos korean. He makes the rest look bad, and should not be a team leader. He's the problem
User was warned for this post
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As a member of the CS community i find it bullshit that you guys bring this up now. the reason the team left was because they didn't even know if directv was going to give the compLexity brand back to jason lake, let alone if jason lake could provide the money to allow them to go to events.
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On July 23 2011 07:19 Zurtloe wrote:Show nested quote +bad economy and the small Korean SC2 fan base compared to SC1. Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport. The monopoly of GomTv is preventing the growth of SC2 in S. Korea. :|
You could not be any more wrong. There is a much bigger problem in Korea atm holding everything back.
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On July 23 2011 06:50 Von wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:47 Kich wrote:
The fact that this is even an issue is mind boggling. This's what I'm sayin'. Sounds like this has more to do with Korean culture than anything else. .
I think it is less a function of Korean culture and more a function of internet culture. Kiddies on the internet love to stir up drama over the most benign and mundane things. Outrage is so much fun after all. All these people saying "I will never buy their sponsor's products or cheer for them" crack me up, because they are such empty threats. These people will forget this incident in a week's time.
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...this is just stupid. Puma was not a signed player. EG offered him something that his old team could not. It would have been a horrible decision if Puma let the offer pass. Lee can only blame himself for not contracting his players. There is a reason why all of his top players have left the team. I just cant wrap my brain around people getting all worked up over this. This is a business and the managers and fans need to understand that. Also the players need to be thought of as individuals and not team property. EG didn't "steal" anything from TSL, the player made the decision to leave in order to better his career. I am happy for both Puma and EG and I hope TSL can get back on track and continue to be a competitive starcraft 2 team.
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On July 23 2011 07:21 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 07:19 Zurtloe wrote:bad economy and the small Korean SC2 fan base compared to SC1. Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport. The monopoly of GomTv is preventing the growth of SC2 in S. Korea. :| You could not be any more wrong. There is a much bigger problem in Korea atm holding everything back.
would that be sc1 and kespa?
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On July 23 2011 07:05 OPL3SA2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:48 Von wrote:
This kid is good enough to be a consistently top placing pro if not one of the best ever ...
... and he was approached by a top foreign team that has more prospects to play professionally.
And they probably offered him a much better deal.
So he took it. Good on him. Kids not under contract. He has the right to look after his own career.
In the U.S. it would be considered odd for anyone to have any kind of a problem with this at all. It would have nothing to do with 'honor' or 'loyalty' here.
As far as I know, the guys in TSL are not his childhood friends from the old gang that formed a pro gaming team. Its business. He got a better deal.
TSL fucked up by not getting that contract. End of story imo.
Whoah Whoah Whoah TSL_Gentleman (that's his real ID, watch more Gretech corp imo) isn't a world class player that has the chance to be the best ever. NASL was only a big deal not because of the player pool but rather because of the prize pool. Puma travelled to the US, realized everyone here sucked, took our trophy, and realized "hey, i think i want to take more trophies from these chubby kids" The only reason why this is dramatic is because he's a hot commodity after NASL. Please wait for about 2 months, during which time Puma might have won an ICCup or a Zotac cup. He will be somewhat dominant here in the US, but only comparatively. I honestly think Puma is a B-teamer on TSL, which explains exactly why he wasn't given a contract. After winning an untaxed 50,000$, yeah it's a big deal for TSL to lose him at this time. And considering EG's best players are Idra and Incontrol, yeah it's a big deal for EG to pick him up. But if you would please put this in the context of IM_Bomber, who if those two ever played a game? HAHAHAHAHAHAH Bomber could fucking walk up to his booth and make faces in the middle of the god damn fucking game and still go back to his booth and win. I wholeheartedly wish all people could scout talent as well as the handful that do it correctly <cough>. Coach Lee is one of those people. That's why he : a) didn't sign puma b) didn't give a shit when he left other than c) wanted to make sure his departure was not well received in the US. Good luck <shrug>
You are an extremely clueless kid, PuMa was easily TSL's ace and Bomber is from ST, just gtfo.
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It seems to me that he's not really criticizing EG anymore. Guess hw eas just mad the first time and calmed down by now. Ultimately the problem is that the fan base in Korea for SC2 is pretty small atm (compared to SC1) and that is why sponsors are hard to find. It is only natural that foreign teams with a bigger budget can lure players away. IMO this situation will be solved in a year or two, when SC2 becomes the premier eSports game in Korea as it has already become in the rest of the world...
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On July 22 2011 12:34 GTR wrote:
I am sure you tried to keep him from leaving. What kind of conversation have you two had during this whole process?
That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams. I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this, but he was adamant that he would be able to live through this negativity. He felt bad about his decision and told us that he knew a lot about the team (EG) already. Since we are bound to run into each other again in the future, we decided to part ways amicably.
This really gets me into a rage...
There wouldn't have been a fraction of the "negativity" that has occurred if Lee hadn't immediately started giving his sob story about how "the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", and painting EG as some big evil corporation etc. Then he goes on talking about players giving him back their salaries and stipends to seal the sympathy vote.
If you truly care for your players, then you'll be happy for them when they find a better situation for themselves, and grateful to the people who provided it. It makes me wonder if he even believes it himself.
I don't know what makes me more sick, Coach Lee's statements about the situation, or the majority of the communities reaction to it.
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On July 23 2011 06:49 SeizeTheDay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:16 phuzi0n wrote:
This whole situation wreaked of shit from the start, EG tries to make a deal with the former team when they want a player. It seems that EG was just fishing for interest, Puma expressed interested and wanted to discuss it himself with Mr. Lee first, and then Mr. Lee got pissed that another player wanted to leave and cried about it publicly when the deal isn't even done. EG has nothing to apologize for anyways because Puma wasn't even contracted and it's TSL's own fault for not contracting every one of their players. That has nothing to do with culture, it is pure business, contract your players (even just for room and board) if you want to keep them!!! I am not hating on EG but you should really check EG's history :D in getting members.
Please do tell us about this history. I'd like to make sure I have all the facts.
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On July 23 2011 07:16 Vansetsu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:54 phuzi0n wrote:On July 23 2011 06:41 Vansetsu wrote:
econd, it's arguable whether EG should have approached TSL and not Puma first to begin with (as that kind of makes the whole "going over pumas head thing irreverent, and, i don't know, maybe shows some respect to TSL as well?). Regardless, most people think it's a lousy thing to do, TSL is not just a training camp, it is a team. TSL trained a great player, EG bought him out from under TSL. Like I said, it's an arguable way to do business. But most people who feel like I do think it's a pretty dirty thing to do, as TSL looses a friend and a teammate, Puma probably looses the training environment that made him good in the first place, and EG just gets to act like it has some merit for "fielding" a player, of whom they didn't do anything of merit to foster his ability. I personally think on 20 levels that's just bad, but that's just mine an obviously some others opinion.
That is ridiculous. You do not talk to a team before even fishing to find out if the player is interested in leaving the team for yours. If Mr Lee hadn't came out crying publicly I'm sure EG would have contacted him to try to work out a buyout even though Puma isn't even contracted. Mr Lee shit all over Puma and EG by threatening there would be backlash and then crying about it to create the backlash. Everybody would be excited about this if he had kept his mouth shut and waited for the private talks to happen. Like people have said on both sides of the issue, it is a cultural thing. Mr Lee did not "shit all over Puma and EG" he warned him there might be a korean ,and now, because of it, foreign backlash when they found out how this trade went down. "Manager Lee noted that "It is disappointing that we have to make a decision like this, but it's extremely objectionable [T/N: displeasing, disgusting, etc] that Evil Geniuses would ignore the coaches completely and directly go talk to the player" ""He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this"" Albeit, that system is at the least a simple contract, but it does not change the fact that this is not the practice for SC2 teams in Korea, and many over there are finding it offensive. Furthermore, as many people have mentioned, even in the OP of this interview with Mr Lee, the Korean SC2 scene is hard right now with only one major tournament.-- While this may be true, it is the Korean scene that is putting in the work to build strong players. Tournaments results, and even the self evidence of the interest in Korean trained players shows this. Cutting us off from the Korean scene, and/or having the Korean scene loose interest or popularity, greatly influences things over here, and the caliber of high level SC2 everywhere. I don't know about you, but I would much rather watch a game with the caliber of Bomber vs DRG than of something like KawaiiRice vs Destiny in the near future.
People can pretend it's a cultural thing all that they want to but it's not, it's is purely business and Mr Lee is bad at business. If you don't want your players leaving, contract them and make sure you do everything you can to make them happy so that they renew their contracts. In SC1 teams knew to do this, why is anyone giving Mr Lee a shred of sympathy for forgetting something that Korean teams already know to do.
He absolutely was shitting on Puma and EG by crying out publicly so early. His comments about possible backlash were a threat not a warning, if he had kept his comments neutral (in which case we wouldn't know about it) then it would have been a warning, but instead he stirred up the backlash he talked about, thus it was a threat he followed through on.
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Everyone is just so quick to demonize EG, it's ridiculous. EG gave out cards to all the Korean players, they wanted to recruit a Korean, nothing wrong with that. Out of everyone, Puma was the one who was interested, and not under contract. They made him an attractive offer, he liked it, and he decided he should be the one to bring it up with his team.
So what's the problem? The TSL coach is just upset because they lost all their top players to teams who can actually pay them. What a bastard Puma is for wanting to actually be paid for the hard work he puts in...
TSL needs to focus on fixing TSL, not on crying about how their players are being "stolen", or they are going to fade into obscurity.
Personally, I think they should recruit a foreign player onto their team... that is, if they could afford to pay them.
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Looks like coach Lee calmed down after his initial heated response. I don't really see anything wrong with what EG did and find the vocal backlash against them to be unwarranted. It is also interesting hearing about the state of SC2 in Korea right now. Things could be shifting and changing a lot in the next few months.
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On July 23 2011 07:41 Sylvr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 12:34 GTR wrote:
I am sure you tried to keep him from leaving. What kind of conversation have you two had during this whole process?
That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams. I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this, but he was adamant that he would be able to live through this negativity. He felt bad about his decision and told us that he knew a lot about the team (EG) already. Since we are bound to run into each other again in the future, we decided to part ways amicably.
This really gets me into a rage... There wouldn't have been a fraction of the "negativity" that has occurred if Lee hadn't immediately started giving his sob story about how "the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", and painting EG as some big evil corporation etc. Then he goes on talking about players giving him back their salaries and stipends to seal the sympathy vote. If you truly care for your players, then you'll be happy for them when they find a better situation for themselves, and grateful to the people who provided it. It makes me wonder if he even believes it himself. I don't know what makes me more sick, Coach Lee's statements about the situation, or the majority of the communities reaction to it.
I ponder if you would do differently and be all quiet about it, I know I wouldn't, it makes me wonder if you even believe yourself.
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On July 23 2011 07:47 itiswhatitis wrote:
Everyone is just so quick to demonize EG, it's ridiculous. EG gave out cards to all the Korean players, they wanted to recruit a Korean, nothing wrong with that. Out of everyone, Puma was the one who was interested, and not under contract. They made him an attractive offer, he liked it, and he decided he should be the one to bring it up with his team.
So what's the problem? The TSL coach is just upset because they lost all their top players to teams who can actually pay them. What a bastard Puma is for wanting to actually be paid for the hard work he puts in...
TSL needs to focus on fixing TSL, not on crying about how their players are being "stolen", or they are going to fade into obscurity.
Personally, I think they should recruit a foreign player onto their team... that is, if they could afford to pay them.
It has nothing to do with that, it has to do with common courtesy. TSL is the team that grew Puma to who he is, there is no doubt that Puma indeed has the final word in the decision, however it is simple courtesy to allow the team to know that EG is indeed interested in getting Puma. By not talking to TSL team first, it doesn't allow TSL to counter negotiate with their own player Puma. Its the same thing about other professional sports, like basketball, and football. Teams trade with teams, and its fairly obvious that approaching Puma before, or not w/ any of TSL's management is a pretty big travesty.
Also this will make Korean teams much much more weary about their players, being much more protective of them from foreign team advancements, ESPECIALLY after an ordeal such as this. I believe the coach of TSL just wanted some transparency, and wanted to hear the news from EG's management, and not have to ask his player to find out. This is common business practice, and a form of courtesy.
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EPT
