Translated by: wtreddit@reddit Original Interview by: Ethan_Ahn@PlayXP
Hey guys, I spent a couple of hours translating the latest interview with coach Lee regarding this whole TSL / EG drama. I also want to take this moment to thank Milkis for doing the translations for the community. I never realized how hard this is and I definitely appreciate what you are doing for the foreign SC2 community. Anyways, hope this helps! P.S. I don't have a TL forum account since I am just lurker, so if someone can post this over there, it would be great. Thanks!
Please provide us with some more details regarding your decision to release PuMa from the team and PuMa’s decision to join EG (Evil Geniuses). Shortly after his arrival from the US, PuMa was not himself and was seen frequently sighing for about three days as if he was stressed out. Naturally, I was concerned to see this coming from someone who had just won the NASL. This attitude continued even after we won our GSTL match a few days later. I had never seen this side of PuMa during the one year we were together. Sensing something strange was going on, I asked him repeatedly what was wrong, but he did not give me an answer. But he finally opened up to me the day after the GSTL match about his dilemma. At that point, I felt that he had already made up his mind to leave the team.
I am sure you were very displeased at that point. Definitely. When FruitDealer and Tester decided to leave TSL, we agreed that we would do our best to keep the remaining team intact, play together, and perform our best … all the while not putting heavy pressure on tournament results. But after hearing this news from PuMa, I did not know what to think or how to react.
I am sure you tried to keep him from leaving. What kind of conversation have you two had during this whole process? That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams. I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this, but he was adamant that he would be able to live through this negativity. He felt bad about his decision and told us that he knew a lot about the team (EG) already. Since we are bound to run into each other again in the future, we decided to part ways amicably.
You have announced that the team is currently in “rebuilding” mode. I would presume that this event caused some turmoil internally as well. Having been blindsided by the news, we did not know how to react. SangHo and Clide were worried and it came to light that they were also approached similarly in the past.
Are you saying that some other TSL members were approached as well? Yes, I found out through this whole ordeal. When SangHo and Clide were approached by other teams, they told me that they declined the offers due to their respect for TSL and the importance of continuing with the team that they originally started with. They thought it was best not to tell me since they thought it would cause unnecessary distractions and concerns.
Why do you think this happened? I think foreign teams approach them due to their fan base. Clide has a lot of foreign fans … about 2 to 3 thousand Twitter followers that consists mostly of foreigners. SangHo does as well. It’s a lot of fans considering they haven’t won a major tournament yet. As for PuMa, I believe the offers came in due to his victory at NASL, but am just disappointed that he made such a big decision in such a short time.
Why do you think he made the decision to join EG? I guess the environment has a lot to do with it, and by that I mean the state of the Korean pro-gaming scene for Starcraft 2. If PuMa was placed in Code S, I believe he would not have taken the deal. From the Korean player’s perspective, getting into Code S is hard, and winning the GSL is even harder, thus the door of opportunity is very narrow. Experiencing the foreign Starcraft 2 scene, and seeing first-hand the impact it has on a global level probably made him think that his accomplishment in Korea is small compared to what he is capable of doing in the foreign scene.
I sense that you are not satisfied with the Korean SC2 pro-gaming scene. If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns. So why didn’t you sign PuMa to a contract beforehand? At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit.
It seems like a lot of members have left TSL recently. Anything you would like to say about this? Rain’s dad lives in New York and his dream has always been to go abroad. It was only after he left the team that he signed with Fnatic, so what happened with Rain is different from Puma’s situation. Part of the reason why Rain left originated from some of the issues that arised once our team entered into a “rebuilding” mode
What other issues did the team go through during this “rebuilding” phase? TSL has not had a very good showing in tournaments so far this year, which lead to a decrease in number of members as well as sponsors. We initially cultivated a low pressure practice environment within our team, but we did not have good results in the tournaments. We had many members placed in Code S but none of them advanced far enough, which is why we decided to go into “rebuilding” mode. During this transitional process, FruitDealer and Tester preferred the low pressure environment, whereas the other team members felt it was best to incorporate a more rigid practice regimen. Due to poor showings in tournaments, the sponsorship funds decreased which naturally lead to pay cuts across the board. This whole incident lead to the eventual departure of FruitDealer and Tester, and Rain had trouble meshing with the other members due to the age difference (Rain being the youngest) on top of his desire to go abroad. If only we had accelerated our rebuilding phase, I believe Rain would have stayed with the team.
There are some rumors that there were salary issues with the players. What are your thoughts on this? While I can’t give you the exact amounts, FruitDealer, Tester and Clide received a monthly salary from the team. Besides those three, the other members were on a stipend basis. After the rebuilding phase, Clide and SangHo returned the salaries / stipends that they received to provide some additional financial support for the whole team. We were very thankful for their gesture. Now that I think about it, our team was fairly quick in providing salaries compared to the others. Starcraft 2 was slow to catch on in Korea. On top of that, back then the economy was in a poor state and the sponsorship endowment was quite low. We were even in danger to losing our main team sponsor.
It seems like you should be taking appropriate measures to prevent this from happening again. We are going to put everyone on a contract. Every team member has agreed to sign and no other player has a desire to leave the team.
What are the contract details? First and foremost, we will be putting our 6 main players on a contract right away. The new recruits will eventually get onboard in the near future. We will be paying for all living expenses and focus on creating a favorable practice environment. As for the contract expirations, we are thinking about 1 year, but ultimately it will be tailored towards the players’ needs and wants.
I understand that there are very few sponsorship opportunities in the Korean market. It has definitely become harder today than in the past due to poor tournament showings. I would like to take this time to thank our current sponsors for sticking with us through thick and thin. Some have even contacted us to tell us how much they appreciate our passion to do better and to wish us the best.
Anything you would like to say to the other teams? I hope that the other teams don’t end up in a similar situation to us; furthermore, I would also like the players to understand some of these implications. It may not be easy to implement, but I hope to see standard agreements to become the norm when it comes to recruiting and having the rights to a player.
Some are putting the blame on your lack of coaching ability. I agree to an extent, but this was really out of my control. Part of the blame lies on the systematic risks in terms of the bad economy and the small Korean SC2 fan base compared to SC1. Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport.
And how do you propose we solve this? Our team’s mission has always been to promote the growth and popularity of Starcraft 2. We have published video tutorials and training videos for beginners, and so far, our first video received about 20,000 hits. We even purchased HD equipments to provide the viewers with quality content.
Any final words? First of all, I would like to apologize to FruitDealer and Tester for not fulfilling what I’ve promised to do. Despite our differences, I really hope that they do well in their respective teams. I’d also like to thank my current players for believing in me and the team. Lastly, I would like to thank the foreign fans for their continued support.
I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
Please provide us with some more details regarding your decision to release PuMa from the team and PuMa’s decision to join EG (Evil Geniuses). Shortly after his arrival from the US, PuMa was not himself and was seen frequently sighing for about three days as if he was stressed out. Naturally, I was concerned to see this coming from someone who had just won the NASL. This attitude continued even after we won our GSTL match a few days later. I had never seen this side of PuMa during the one year we were together. Sensing something strange was going on, I asked him repeatedly what was wrong, but he did not give me an answer. But he finally opened up to me the day after the GSTL match about his dilemma. At that point, I felt that he had already made up his mind to leave the team.
After seeing this, how can anybody hold EG responsible for "secretly" approaching Puma? The miscommunication was clearly between Puma and his team.
Clide and Killer get tons of props for sticking with Lee and their team even when teams tried to poach them.
Also glad their top players are gonna get some good contracts. Also now knowing Rain's dad lives in New York makes the whole Rain leaving thing put into a different light.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it but still know its out there.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
People complained about the KESPA-way of doing things with iron clad contracts. They tried to be more relaxed/trusting in SC2, but it didn't work out and things are going to turn more into a KESPA situation in the future. Especially with teams like EG trying to poach top Korean players.
Seems like the coach is having a really tough time running TSL. It must be stressful trying to rebuild a team, finding sponsors, and improving players all at the same time. I hope in the end it all works out for coach Lee and the rest of TSL.
I wonder what the future of Starcraft 2 in Korea would be like. It feels like another mass immigration wave that is hitting America, except they're Korean progamers.
Props to Sangho and Clide. Theyre both extraordinary amazing individuals as Artosis would say.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
Wow I got so much respect for what Clide and Sangho did, rejecting offers from other teams and not telling the team so the team wouldn't be distracted, and then returning their salary so that their team could rebuild. With this much passion for the team TSL is definitely going to be a beast team again.
Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport.
Very solid interview, I'm glad we have his whole side of the story now that he is calmer. This really makes me respect Korean players a lot more because they practice and sacrifice much more than foreigners despite the smaller rewards and fan bases. GL puma and TSL
And of course, thanks very much to whoever translated this (: Most of us appreciate it
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
oh sure...how stupid of coach Lee not to tell everyone to make commitment w/ contract when the sponsors are departing and the team itself is struggle financially....NOT
I know the whole "hurting eSports" thing is overplayed to death, but seriously, this really is.
The best players are in Korea (look how much Huk improved from practicing there). The hardest competition is in Korea. Therefore, the best players should stay in Korea. Yeah, having a foreign scene is cool, but Korea has proven that they will stick with it for years and years, while this foreign scene could be a flash in the pan for all we know.
I hope we don't just start buying up people so we can kill the small and fragile SC2 scene there.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
What is the Complexity thing?
It was during the counter-strike 1.6. Complexity's entire Counter-Strike roster was basically poached by EG without any knowledge of Jason Lake
On July 22 2011 12:46 lazyfeet wrote: Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport.
Is this true?
I wouldn't doubt it, they compare the fan base to its older brother Brood War. Nothing will top that.
I'm not surprised by the conduct of other teams trying to recruit the Koreans. Looks like Puma wasn't even sure about his decision. It went against his own convictions as well.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
What is the Complexity thing?
It was during the counter-strike 1.6. Complexity's entire Counter-Strike roster was basically poached by EG without any knowledge of Jason Lake
Honestly, I'm really interested in how much puma is getting paid. More than anything else whether it's to travel abroad or whatnot it's probably the money that is the biggest factor. I'm guessing much more than something like 30000 dollars a year.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
Yes, they treat one another like extended family. There is more meaning there.
KeSPA is going to have a really hard time turning SC2 around once they get involved. Blizzard handled the product very poorly there.
Please provide us with some more details regarding your decision to release PuMa from the team and PuMa’s decision to join EG (Evil Geniuses). Shortly after his arrival from the US, PuMa was not himself and was seen frequently sighing for about three days as if he was stressed out. Naturally, I was concerned to see this coming from someone who had just won the NASL. This attitude continued even after we won our GSTL match a few days later. I had never seen this side of PuMa during the one year we were together. Sensing something strange was going on, I asked him repeatedly what was wrong, but he did not give me an answer. But he finally opened up to me the day after the GSTL match about his dilemma. At that point, I felt that he had already made up his mind to leave the team.
After seeing this, how can anybody hold EG responsible for "secretly" approaching Puma? The miscommunication was clearly between Puma and his team.
I wouldn't rely on a player to relay your discussion to the coach (after he already makes a decision)? Talk to the management directly.
On July 22 2011 12:48 VeryAverage wrote: I know the whole "hurting eSports" thing is overplayed to death, but seriously, this really is.
The best players are in Korea (look how much Huk improved from practicing there). The hardest competition is in Korea. Therefore, the best players should stay in Korea. Yeah, having a foreign scene is cool, but Korea has proven that they will stick with it for years and years, while this foreign scene could be a flash in the pan for all we know.
I hope we don't just start buying up people so we can kill the small and fragile SC2 scene there.
Yet the korean scene barely survives. Why? Because they have bad business sense, it was a foolish decision for one league to own all the rights to SC2 in korea.
On July 22 2011 12:46 lazyfeet wrote: Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport.
Is this true?
Hmm I don't like this. Just because SC2 isn't very popular in Korea does not mean it is not flourishing as an e-sport.
Pretty much what I get from this is Korean players want to be playing in front of their fans, the who can blame them for wanting to play for foreign teams?
Everyone wants to talk about loyalty and culture, where is it from the Korean fans? I know where it is, stuck in broodwar.
As great a game as it may be, SC2 is the future of e-sports. Korea can either be apart of that, or be left behind as the west was with BW
Excuse my ignorance if this was common knowledge, but I am really concerned about a lot of the things he said about the Korean SC2 scene. It sounds like its pretty hard times and especially the comment about how Pro-SC2 players don't enjoy playing SC2 due to the small fan-base. I mean I've been kind of waiting for the Korean SC2 scene to take steps towards what BW has accomplished but I guess its just taking more time than I expected. I mean yeah its only been a year, but since a lot of the infrastructure was already in place from BW I guess I expected it to happen quicker? I don't know, its concerning to me.
On July 22 2011 12:46 lazyfeet wrote: Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport.
Is this true?
Hmm I don't like this. Just because SC2 isn't very popular in Korea does not mean it is not flourishing as an e-sport.
Pretty much what I get from this is Korean players want to be playing in front of their fans, the who can blame them for wanting to play for foreign teams?
Everyone wants to talk about loyalty and culture, where is it from the Korean fans?
Clide/Killer/SangHo just shot up in my books. I respect them and their decision. It really sounds like the coach is having a rough time atm, and hopefully he can get out of it quickly. It would be sad to see another team dissolve.
I've always been a fan of Coach Lee and TSL. Much respect to Clide and Sangho for refusing the offers and also making sacrifices for the better of the team. That's awesome
Very good report. Mr. Lee seems like a stand-up guy, but the problem is that this is the nature of pro sports. Contracts are needed and/or some kind of governing body. Apart from that, in the end, no matter how this went down, it was Puma's decision and you have to respect that as long as ntohing illegal went down.
The more I read what Lee says the more blame I put on him, both for no contracts and the drama that has ensued. In the interview, he says he warned Puma about the drama that would follow but it seems like Lee is the one throwing out interviews and angry statements that only help create the drama. I understand being angry and feeling betrayed but if he REALLY cared about Puma, he certainly could have helped the situation by handling the behind the scenes stuff behind the scenes. For instance, just give out the news in a simple, factual statement - that Puma has gone to EG. Instead, he gave interviews when he was/is very angry and emotional and it has helped to elevate this situation far beyond what it should have been.
I also think EG is at fault so it's certainly not all on Lee - far from it. I have heard Lee is a great guy so I feel bad for him, just wish he would have handled it differently, for the sake of Puma who had the guts to talk to him personally and obviously felt a ton of sadness about wanting to leave.
On July 22 2011 12:55 moltenlead wrote: Clide/Killer/SangHo just shot up in my books. I respect them and their decision. It really sounds like the coach is having a rough time atm, and hopefully he can get out of it quickly. It would be sad to see another team dissolve.
I'd expect many of them to do this (stick to what you know;betterment of the team; etc.); whereas, a select few like Puma would want to broaden their horizons and try something new.
People need to realize how hard it is for SC2 and GOM to get Korea's attention. Brood War competitively wasn't big in the foreign market. SC2 has had an easy time just towering over all the foreign Korean BW fans and making the SC2 leagues the biggest events. In Korea, there are still hundreds of fans who will show up to their favorite player's Brood War game every week.
You can't just come into the United States and try to introduce something like Arena Football and expect it to take over the NFL. It's going to take time, but I think SC2 will continue to get bigger in Korea. If whenever someone like Flash, Bisu or Jaedong switches over, that is thousands of fans now coming or wanting to see those guys play.
I mean, really, to Koreans, seeing the top players like MC, MVP and Nestea dominate SC2 is like watching the minor leagues. Why watch them when you can watch Flash, Jaedong and Bisu? Guys who crushed those guys in Brood War. The loyalty in Korea is all with the stars of Brood War.
On July 22 2011 12:58 Charger wrote: The more I read what Lee says the more blame I put on him, both for no contracts and the drama that has ensued. In the interview, he says he warned Puma about the drama that would follow but it seems like Lee is the one throwing out interviews and angry statements that only help create the drama. I understand being angry and feeling betrayed but if he REALLY cared about Puma, he certainly could have helped the situation by handling the behind the scenes stuff behind the scenes. For instance, just give out the news in a simple, factual statement - that Puma has gone to EG. Instead, he gave interviews when he was/is very angry and emotional and it has helped to elevate this situation far beyond what it should have been.
I also think EG is at fault so it's certainly not all on Lee - far from it. I have heard Lee is a great guy so I feel bad for him, just wish he would have handled it differently, for the sake of Puma who had the guts to talk to him personally and obviously felt a ton of sadness about wanting to leave.
There would have been drama regardless. It goes back to honor and many in Korea would see this as betrayal against one's family. I don't want to say the c-word. Don't make me say it.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
Yeah, definitely, its not just about contracts or anything in Asian cultures, its much more about respect in general. AlexG is quite shady despite playing within the rules, i mean i hate to say it, but IMO this hurts the western organization's reputation, sure you can say that they are all not that shady, but korean organizations are going to label and generalize the western community, and with SangHo and Clide coming out with how they were approached by western organizations, korean teams and organizations are much more likely going to be more tough with their team reguations, force contracts, and most likely more of the Koreans to Western teams will happen much less (or untill contracts expire). Also, the KoT debate with Milkis and AlexG.... come on Alex. Its almost the same thing as me asking him "hey dude, you like strawberry ice crream?" and him just saying "well i like fruit flavored ice cream".
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
oh sure...how stupid of coach Lee not to tell everyone to make commitment w/ contract when the sponsors are departing and the team itself is struggle financially....NOT
So why is he upset that Puma left?
I'm sorry, but he admits it himself that he thought of putting Puma under contract crossed his mind before, and yet it didn't happen. If anything he should be upset at himself for thinking everything is just peachy and people never change their minds.
CLIIIIIIIDE. Serious increase in respect for those two guys; such gentlemanly veterans. It'd be nice to see TSL continue the bit of success they're brewing atm. Aren't they doing well in GSTL? Even after losing three major players now, I feel like SangHo Clide Revival and Alive surely isn't the worst lineup.
On July 22 2011 12:54 Rasun wrote: Excuse my ignorance if this was common knowledge, but I am really concerned about a lot of the things he said about the Korean SC2 scene. It sounds like its pretty hard times and especially the comment about how Pro-SC2 players don't enjoy playing SC2 due to the small fan-base. I mean I've been kind of waiting for the Korean SC2 scene to take steps towards what BW has accomplished but I guess its just taking more time than I expected. I mean yeah its only been a year, but since a lot of the infrastructure was already in place from BW I guess I expected it to happen quicker? I don't know, its concerning to me.
Well, after reading this it makes me respect the loyalty some players show as compared to the foreign team, I mean Killer wasn't on contract and declined a team-offer, if IdrA wasn't on contract I'm positive he would of taken another teams contracted offer.
Clide and Killer are two of the most loyal players. I suspect if TSL were to break up, they'd stick together and get picked up by some pretty beastly teams.
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
It's not the players fault that the management are assholes.
As much I hate EG, and prepared to basically not buy anything that sponsors them in the future.
This is not the fault of InC, Idra, Machine or even Puma. No one is mad that Puma made this decision, people are just not happy how EG does its business.
I sincerely hope all the players in EG the best of luck, while the management gets fired and file bankruptcy.
good to see that puma made the run before it was too late. fruitdealer, trickster, puma and rain are now enjoying good salaries and coaches that can actually keep promises.
I feel sad for the other 6 that are now contracted but oh well it's never too late for coach lee to enhance his management skills.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
What is the Complexity thing?
It was during the counter-strike 1.6. Complexity's entire Counter-Strike roster was basically poached by EG without any knowledge of Jason Lake
Wow. After all this, I really think less of EG. Lost a lot of my respect
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
Yeah, definitely, its not just about contracts or anything in Asian cultures, its much more about respect in general. AlexG is quite shady despite playing within the rules, i mean i hate to say it, but IMO this hurts the western organization's reputation, sure you can say that they are all not that shady, but korean organizations are going to label and generalize the western community, and with SangHo and Clide coming out with how they were approached by western organizations, korean teams and organizations are much more likely going to be more tough with their team reguations, force contracts, and most likely more of the Koreans to Western teams will happen much less (or untill contracts expire). Also, the KoT debate with Milkis and AlexG.... come on Alex. Its almost the same thing as me asking him "hey dude, you like strawberry ice crream?" and him just saying "well i like fruit flavored ice cream".
I thought it's been "Hey dude, you like strawberry ice cream?", "If you want to know if I like strawberry ice cream, you see, you have to remember the underlining problem is...... blah blah blah....... So, to answer the question. What's the question again?"
On July 22 2011 12:48 VeryAverage wrote: I know the whole "hurting eSports" thing is overplayed to death, but seriously, this really is.
The best players are in Korea (look how much Huk improved from practicing there). The hardest competition is in Korea. Therefore, the best players should stay in Korea. Yeah, having a foreign scene is cool, but Korea has proven that they will stick with it for years and years, while this foreign scene could be a flash in the pan for all we know.
I hope we don't just start buying up people so we can kill the small and fragile SC2 scene there.
Yet the korean scene barely survives. Why? Because they have bad business sense, it was a foolish decision for one league to own all the rights to SC2 in korea.
so fucking true
in order for korea to really flourish they need more than just gomtv league vs league? damn crazy
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
I sincerely hope all the players in EG the best of luck, while the management gets fired and file bankruptcy.
That seems incredibly unlucky for the players of EG.
On July 22 2011 13:05 leo23 wrote: good to see that puma made the run before it was too late. fruitdealer, trickster, puma and rain are now enjoying good salaries and coaches that can actually keep promises.
I feel sad for the other 6 that are now contracted but oh well it's never too late for coach lee to enhance his management skills.
FruitDealer and Trickster left because TSL wanted to become more serious in practicing. Even FruitDealer, who left TSL, called Puma out on his Twitter.
Rain left because he actually has a father who lives in the United States.
Why would you feel bad for the six main players who are getting contracts? Lee is a great coach and has been for a long, long time. Clide and Killer have turned down foreign offers without contracts because they believe in TSL. I find that highly respectable.
On July 22 2011 12:46 lazyfeet wrote: Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport.
Is this true?
It is no secret that the SC2 korean scene is small in Korea, SC2 is not popular there at all, especially when you compare it with the giant that is BW.
Still, it is good to see another statement from Coach Lee, hopefully this will put somet things to rest.
On July 22 2011 13:03 Duka08 wrote: CLIIIIIIIDE. Serious increase in respect for those two guys; such gentlemanly veterans. It'd be nice to see TSL continue the bit of success they're brewing atm. Aren't they doing well in GSTL? Even after losing three major players now, I feel like SangHo Clide Revival and Alive surely isn't the worst lineup.
You have to understand, Clide is the man who picked Nestea instead of Huk in the group selection, just to avoid having Jinro and Huk on the same group. Then proceeds to crush the group 2-0.
After that event I'm forever a Clide fan and supporter, not only because he's a good player, but also how fucking nice he is.
Well this makes me respect the TSL team and entire roster a whole bunch more. Especially Clide and SangHo. Never followed them much in the past, but I'm definitely a fan now.
On July 22 2011 12:46 storm44 wrote: Wow I got so much respect for what Clide and Sangho did, rejecting offers from other teams and not telling the team so the team wouldn't be distracted, and then returning their salary so that their team could rebuild. With this much passion for the team TSL is definitely going to be a beast team again.
I just see chumps. I hope this isn't 'here have my money' thing and they actually negotiated something tangible they get back out of it. Such as, portion of winning, portion of sponsorship money, something to pay back their sacrifice. There is no honour is sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice.
Please provide us with some more details regarding your decision to release PuMa from the team and PuMa’s decision to join EG (Evil Geniuses). Shortly after his arrival from the US, PuMa was not himself and was seen frequently sighing for about three days as if he was stressed out. Naturally, I was concerned to see this coming from someone who had just won the NASL. This attitude continued even after we won our GSTL match a few days later. I had never seen this side of PuMa during the one year we were together. Sensing something strange was going on, I asked him repeatedly what was wrong, but he did not give me an answer. But he finally opened up to me the day after the GSTL match about his dilemma. At that point, I felt that he had already made up his mind to leave the team.
After seeing this, how can anybody hold EG responsible for "secretly" approaching Puma? The miscommunication was clearly between Puma and his team.
Um.. yes they approached in secret according to this interview. Puma kept it a secret until later on admitting it. Did you read this interview or....
I'm really glad I was never a TSL fan, otherwise I would be REALLY sad. Nevertheless hearing their struggles is quite sad, and I hope the Korean teams get more support.
On July 22 2011 12:46 storm44 wrote: Wow I got so much respect for what Clide and Sangho did, rejecting offers from other teams and not telling the team so the team wouldn't be distracted, and then returning their salary so that their team could rebuild. With this much passion for the team TSL is definitely going to be a beast team again.
I just see chumps. I hope this isn't 'here have my money' thing and they actually negotiated something tangible they get back out of it. Such as, portion of winning, portion of sponsorship money, something to pay back their sacrifice. There is no honour is sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice.
What they get back is the satisfaction that they helped build a team that succeeded and continued to provide opportunities for future gamers. You see chumps, I see reminders of how it was back in Brood War's infancy as an eSport.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
Not at all, they're investing it in InControl new get-rich-promote-esports scheme, it's bound to be a huge success and will probably be the best thing to hit esports since sliced bread and player stealing!
I've always been a fan of Coach Lee starting from his time at MBC Game Hero and I think the man is something special. Even though he and his team has been through numerous difficult situations, I truly believe TSL will develop in to the most formidable team in the world.
"Clide has a lot of foreign fans … about 2 to 3 thousand Twitter followers that consists mostly of foreigners."
I couldn't help but laugh a little because we all know why Clide so many fans compared to other Korean Starcraft 2 players, even though he hasn't won a GSL.
"Our team’s mission has always been to promote the growth and popularity of Starcraft 2. We have published video tutorials and training videos for beginners, and so far, our first video received about 20,000 hits. We even purchased HD equipments to provide the viewers with quality content."
I got to do some digging to find these videos, because who wouldn't want to learn from TSL.
I also think Sangho and Clide are very respectable in terms of Starcraft 2 skill and as genuinely nice people.
On July 22 2011 13:05 leo23 wrote: good to see that puma made the run before it was too late. fruitdealer, trickster, puma and rain are now enjoying good salaries and coaches that can actually keep promises.
I feel sad for the other 6 that are now contracted but oh well it's never too late for coach lee to enhance his management skills.
Um, heres the promise. I will keep paying you as long as our sponsors continue to show support. We will be supported as long as our team shows results. Those results did not happen through their top players, FD and Trickster. So no, please dont insult TSL's coach, who came clean here and explained everything and sounds like an honest person.
Enormous respect for Coach Lee, Clide and SangHo. I wish TSL all the best. Hopefully sc2 will grow in Korea and TSL players may get the recognition and financial success they deserve. They surely have a fan in me. Can't say the same for EG.
So this is all because the Korean sc2 scene is not well established enough. Man, if sc2's popularity doesn't take off in Korea, I dont know what'll happen... If sc2 doesn't survive in korea then I fear for its international future.
On July 22 2011 13:05 leo23 wrote: good to see that puma made the run before it was too late. fruitdealer, trickster, puma and rain are now enjoying good salaries and coaches that can actually keep promises.
I feel sad for the other 6 that are now contracted but oh well it's never too late for coach lee to enhance his management skills.
Um, heres the promise. I will keep paying you as long as our sponsors continue to show support. We will be supported as long as our team shows results. Those results did not happen through their top players, FD and Trickster. So no, please dont insult TSL's coach, who came clean here and explained everything and sounds like an honest person.
pretty sure that the promise he made is not in that article. But don't let that stop you! Continue to assume everything that went around in that TSL house without really knowing anything.
On July 22 2011 13:11 LegendaryZ wrote: What they get back is the satisfaction that they helped build a team that succeeded and continued to provide opportunities for future gamers. You see chumps, I see reminders of how it was back in Brood War's infancy as an eSport.
Hopefully this time a round, the competition from foreign teams will prevent a kespa type organization from being able to form.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
People complained about the KESPA-way of doing things with iron clad contracts. They tried to be more relaxed/trusting in SC2, but it didn't work out and things are going to turn more into a KESPA situation in the future. Especially with teams like EG trying to poach top Korean players.
This, people seem to think SC2 pro team is a really big deal, while that is the case. I promise you the only actual benefit you get from it is getting to do what you love and get by out of it. Its certainly not rose coloured and we all know how many people have shown it may not be worth it.
At the moment SC2 is just one rung above the ladder of a bunch of ppl making a clan and getting sayyy sponsored by a cafe (this happens alot in countries were lan centers are the hub of gaming) you get sponsored, you get well known who play at your center for free and encourage people to play your sponsored team because theyre supposed to be good.
this in itself is enough motivation for people to play.. so its natural that outside of broodwar as in Pumas case it makes sense..
Korean kid likes to play games , goes to USA gets totally blown away by country and fans from said country, Its new, its exciting and the decision gets pretty simple.
and lets face it he gets to be a big fish in a small pond...
The fact of the matter is atleast as far as korea is concerned if SC2 does get as big you will have some form of regulation, right not its a pretty semi pro scene where your word and looking promising is probably the biggest thing you can offer to a sponsor.
I have ALOT of respect for Coach Lee and TSL. You guys who have seen "Hyung Joon becomes a Progamer" know what I'm talking about. IF you haven't seen it, you MUST watch this:
On July 22 2011 13:05 leo23 wrote: good to see that puma made the run before it was too late. fruitdealer, trickster, puma and rain are now enjoying good salaries and coaches that can actually keep promises.
I feel sad for the other 6 that are now contracted but oh well it's never too late for coach lee to enhance his management skills.
Um, heres the promise. I will keep paying you as long as our sponsors continue to show support. We will be supported as long as our team shows results. Those results did not happen through their top players, FD and Trickster. So no, please dont insult TSL's coach, who came clean here and explained everything and sounds like an honest person.
pretty sure that the promise he made is not in that article. But don't let that stop you! Continue to assume everything that went around in that TSL house without really knowing anything.
A bunch of very mannered answers, the guy seems nice and smart. I really hope that TSL gets their team back on their feet again, it would be a shame to see the whole team falling apart for good.
On July 22 2011 13:05 leo23 wrote: good to see that puma made the run before it was too late. fruitdealer, trickster, puma and rain are now enjoying good salaries and coaches that can actually keep promises.
I feel sad for the other 6 that are now contracted but oh well it's never too late for coach lee to enhance his management skills.
Um, heres the promise. I will keep paying you as long as our sponsors continue to show support. We will be supported as long as our team shows results. Those results did not happen through their top players, FD and Trickster. So no, please dont insult TSL's coach, who came clean here and explained everything and sounds like an honest person.
pretty sure that the promise he made is not in that article. But don't let that stop you! Continue to assume everything that went around in that TSL house without really knowing anything.
please continue to make vague statements without links so you can feel superior, that really helps advance the discussion
On July 22 2011 13:05 leo23 wrote: good to see that puma made the run before it was too late. fruitdealer, trickster, puma and rain are now enjoying good salaries and coaches that can actually keep promises.
I feel sad for the other 6 that are now contracted but oh well it's never too late for coach lee to enhance his management skills.
Um, heres the promise. I will keep paying you as long as our sponsors continue to show support. We will be supported as long as our team shows results. Those results did not happen through their top players, FD and Trickster. So no, please dont insult TSL's coach, who came clean here and explained everything and sounds like an honest person.
pretty sure that the promise he made is not in that article. But don't let that stop you! Continue to assume everything that went around in that TSL house without really knowing anything.
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
The players aren't involved in this, this would be just wrong in my opion. EG on the other hand "lost my support", not because that they signed (or will sign ...) Puma, just with their behavior towards this whole thing.
Also huge respect to Clide & SangHo for sticking to their team, even returning saleries to help the team. I liked them before, but that hardend it a bit more. Also nice to hear the background on the departure of Rain.
coach lee is a baller, i hope they can get some new talent on their team quickly, they are doing so well in the teamleague would be a shame if they cant reach the playoffs because of people leaving.
Wow, Puma and EG are looking really bad here. I guess since Puma wasn't contracted with TSL there isn't technically anything 'wrong' about this, but this whole transaction looks fishy and shows no class at all. Bad Puma! Long live clide and sangho!
I get so sad reading this article. If even a mid-tier team like TSL is having money problems then I don't even know how teams like MVP and Hoseo are going to survive.
On July 22 2011 13:20 Sultan.P wrote: Wow, Puma and EG are looking really bad here. I guess since Puma wasn't contracted with TSL there isn't technically anything 'wrong' about this, but this whole transaction looks fishy and shows no class at all. Bad Puma! Long live clide and sangho!
...What's wrong with Puma wanting A) a contract and B) to be payed?
FFS whatever you think of Coach Lee and EG after all this don't go shitting on Puma.
I feel bad for TSL but looking at the flip side, seeing how rough the sc2 pro scene is in korea, can you blame korean pro players for wanting to move to the foreign scene where there is easier competition, more fan support and sponsors, and more money to be made?
It unfortunately seems like at least right now, it's a zero sum game. Good for us (the foreigners) but not good for the korean scene.
Whatever unspoken "rules" exist in Korea about how they handle players doesn't have to exist everywhere else in the world. The great thing about eSports is that it doesn't have to be about location or nationality. Players can find ways to play together, practice, travel to events, etc. even if they aren't living in the same country. The teams and coaches in Korea have to understand there is great opportunity outside of Korea right now and it is going to be hard to blame players looking to go after those opportunities.
You are going to see more of this in SC2 because the money for SC2 isn't in Korea. The SC2 scene in Europe and NA is really booming and there is money there especially for the talented but 2nd tier Korean players. Puma can stay in Korea and do OK, or he can join EG and travel the world and be a stud and make money while it is there to be made. Now when I say the money is there it might not always be the big GSL payday, but there are so many more smaller tournaments with more spread prize pools that your chances of coming away with something are much greater.
One thing with eSports, it can be a fickle beast. Games can really decline and potentially die at anytime. Right now SC2 seems to be doing well and there is money being put into it, players who are smart will do all they can to earn it while they can because you never know if that well might dry up. I think it is safe to say we'll enjoy SC2 for a long time with the expansions and all, but that doesn't always mean the money will be there just because the game is. Again, I think SC2 is going to really flourish as an eSport but I don't think it will be in Korea.
I respect that a player like Clide stayed, but it is a decision he might regret. Loyalty is overrated because you are really banking on the other side reciprocating it at some point and that can be risky(it happens in sports all the time, one player remains loyal but gets hurt and then gets cut by the team he was loyal to, etc.)
My last point, from interviews and what I can gather about how Korean players are treated I think this could be a good thing. I think Korean players are often talked about not even as people but borderline indentured servants. They have rigid practice schedules, live in tight quarters, have minimal pay.... and all that and you might never even make it to Code S where you can actually make some money. Puma isn't going through all this just because he feels like it. The offer he got had to be much better than his current situation because if it was just marginally better he probably stays. Now this isn't all the teams and I know some players are very comfortable but you hear in the interview they have players on TSL not even on a salary but a stipend? Seriously, you are surprised that players are leaving your team when he admits they are barely holding on to their sponsors, having money problems? Sounds to me like Puma was smart here and saw what was coming and made sure to take care of himself before this thing folded.
Interesting. Hearing this interviews makes it look like SC2 is really small in Korea and alot of teams have huge problems finding sponsors. If this trend continues and SC2 stays strong in the West, many Koreans will join Western Teams.
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
The players aren't involved in this, this would be just wrong in my opion. EG on the other hand "lost my support", not because that they signed (or will sign ...) Puma, just with their behavior towards this whole thing.
Also huge respect to Clide & SangHo for sticking to their team, even returning saleries to help the team. I liked them before, but that hardend it a bit more. Also nice to hear the background on the departure of Rain.
Ty @ wtreddit for translating!
The only way to let EG know we don't like them is to take it out on their product: their players. It's not like they do anything big as a team effort.
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
The players aren't involved in this, this would be just wrong in my opion. EG on the other hand "lost my support", not because that they signed (or will sign ...) Puma, just with their behavior towards this whole thing.
Also huge respect to Clide & SangHo for sticking to their team, even returning saleries to help the team. I liked them before, but that hardend it a bit more. Also nice to hear the background on the departure of Rain.
Ty @ wtreddit for translating!
The players are the most important part of the organization, you can't really support EG's players but not support EG. They don't care if you don't support the management as long as you support their players.
On July 22 2011 13:20 Sultan.P wrote: Wow, Puma and EG are looking really bad here. I guess since Puma wasn't contracted with TSL there isn't technically anything 'wrong' about this, but this whole transaction looks fishy and shows no class at all. Bad Puma! Long live clide and sangho!
...What's wrong with Puma wanting A) a contract and B) to be payed?
FFS whatever you think of Coach Lee and EG after all this don't go shitting on Puma.
I guess you missed the part where he was supposedly part of a team decision to stay strong together after FD/Trickster left.
Edit: Not that that confirms it, but from how the story was told, it does cast a little doubt on Puma, plus the part where he wasn't acting himself. He clearly had misgivings about the whole thing and probably feels bad.
KesPa wins in the end really. The Korean scene is just not where it needs to be and it's still incredible how these koreans are still doing well despite the fact.
Huge props to Lee and the rest of TSL. I hope all Korean teams takes measures to prevent shit like this from happening again, there are no honor and loyalty in the western world, only money and a quest to be as big as possible. The reason I liked to watch Brood War was to see the Koreans duke it out at the highest level possible, same applies to Starcraft 2. I don't give a fuck about foreigners playing. Whine all you want about the "growth of e-sports", we all know how Brood War did, hopefully Starcraft 2 can pick that up when/if BW dies out.
Coach Lee is such a nice guy... I remember him from his MBC days (MBC fighting~). Thanks for bringing this from Reddit, I don't really wade in those waters.
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
The players aren't involved in this, this would be just wrong in my opion. EG on the other hand "lost my support", not because that they signed (or will sign ...) Puma, just with their behavior towards this whole thing.
Also huge respect to Clide & SangHo for sticking to their team, even returning saleries to help the team. I liked them before, but that hardend it a bit more. Also nice to hear the background on the departure of Rain.
Ty @ wtreddit for translating!
The only way to let EG know we don't like them is to take it out on their product: their players. It's not like they do anything big as a team effort.
True enough I suppose, less expose/fans and less purchase of EG-sponsored products hits them in the wallets where it hurts more than flames on a message board. (BTW, I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with the action)
So Clide and SangHo were salaried so they felt secure enough to contribute back to the team. Puma wasn't and so went somewhere where they can give him exactly what those two have. I don't feel very sorry for the coach if he considered a contract but didn't especially since other players had them.
I just don't have a big problem with this I guess. Especially since it sounds like the coach made a pretty huge assumption about how far along the Puma/EG process was.
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
The players aren't involved in this, this would be just wrong in my opion. EG on the other hand "lost my support", not because that they signed (or will sign ...) Puma, just with their behavior towards this whole thing.
Also huge respect to Clide & SangHo for sticking to their team, even returning saleries to help the team. I liked them before, but that hardend it a bit more. Also nice to hear the background on the departure of Rain.
Ty @ wtreddit for translating!
The only way to let EG know we don't like them is to take it out on their product: their players. It's not like they do anything big as a team effort.
You're A) wrong and B) an ass.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Going to MLG and booing players is completely pointless, spiteful and incredibly rude.
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
The players aren't involved in this, this would be just wrong in my opion. EG on the other hand "lost my support", not because that they signed (or will sign ...) Puma, just with their behavior towards this whole thing.
Also huge respect to Clide & SangHo for sticking to their team, even returning saleries to help the team. I liked them before, but that hardend it a bit more. Also nice to hear the background on the departure of Rain.
Ty @ wtreddit for translating!
The only way to let EG know we don't like them is to take it out on their product: their players. It's not like they do anything big as a team effort.
You're A) wrong and B) an ass.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Going to MLG and booing players is completely pointless, spiteful and incredibly rude.
How is it pointless? You don't think their sponsors will notice?
On July 22 2011 12:58 Charger wrote: The more I read what Lee says the more blame I put on him, both for no contracts and the drama that has ensued. In the interview, he says he warned Puma about the drama that would follow but it seems like Lee is the one throwing out interviews and angry statements that only help create the drama. I understand being angry and feeling betrayed but if he REALLY cared about Puma, he certainly could have helped the situation by handling the behind the scenes stuff behind the scenes. For instance, just give out the news in a simple, factual statement - that Puma has gone to EG. Instead, he gave interviews when he was/is very angry and emotional and it has helped to elevate this situation far beyond what it should have been.
I also think EG is at fault so it's certainly not all on Lee - far from it. I have heard Lee is a great guy so I feel bad for him, just wish he would have handled it differently, for the sake of Puma who had the guts to talk to him personally and obviously felt a ton of sadness about wanting to leave.
The drama would have started either way, because one second you see him representing TSL and then EG the next, it would make all the fans of both Puma and TSL question what happened. The trust that Lee put in Puma is the same some teams do for their players. In most parts of asian countries, the honor system still stands, because they don't see them as just an employee, but more like a son or a family member. The other reason is most likely the since TSL was suppose to be a pretty lenient, they didn't force the contract.
In asian culture, and on the BW scene, normally you if a team (suitor) was interested, you would go ask the management of the players team about the trade(parents), unless the team with the player was advertising about trading their players. It is not about Puma wanting to join EG, but the disrespect that Puma and EG had shown towards them. EG showed a cultural disrespect, while Puma show disrespect through given trust.
Lee wouldn't feel as angry as he was if -Puma had told him when he made the decision instead of prolonging it by saying he isn't troubled by anything. -If Puma showed his team a little more courtesy, (even though this may be biased due to the information from the post) by telling them that he wanted to move on instead of not telling them after he had accepted the contract, and trying to leave without saying a word(he eventually did, but it had to be somewhat ripped out of him) -If EG had told Team TSL that they were interested in Puma instead of offering him behind closed doors.
Drama would have started either way, but who knows what would of happened if Lee didn't show his anger, instead it might be the fans when they see that Puma is no longer a member of TSL.
He did show Puma that he cared by not putting him on a contract like most players in BW, but why should Lee hold back when Puma just did something dishonoring?
Lee has a right to be angry, but some fault still lies on him, invoking the drama that may or may not have been as big as fan reactions if no one mentioned it.
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
The players aren't involved in this, this would be just wrong in my opion. EG on the other hand "lost my support", not because that they signed (or will sign ...) Puma, just with their behavior towards this whole thing.
Also huge respect to Clide & SangHo for sticking to their team, even returning saleries to help the team. I liked them before, but that hardend it a bit more. Also nice to hear the background on the departure of Rain.
Ty @ wtreddit for translating!
The only way to let EG know we don't like them is to take it out on their product: their players. It's not like they do anything big as a team effort.
You're A) wrong and B) an ass.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Going to MLG and booing players is completely pointless, spiteful and incredibly rude.
How is it pointless? You don't think their sponsors will notice?
Puma has enough skills to command a higher standard of living, and chooses to take an offer from Evil Geniuses. EG gets flak for offering that to him. What?
Puma has to make a big life decision at a young age regarding his career and financial state. That isn't something easy to do, especially when you are that young. I am all for respecting your roots and being thankful to those who helped you get to where you are, but if a big opportunity comes around like this, and your mentors and teammates are upset that you wish to move on, then I would find that kind of shitty. Being emotional about a player like this leaving is completely understandable, but holding a grudge or expressing ill will on either PuMa or EG wouldn't be. dJWheat summed it up pretty well with his story of a star player on his team leaving for another team who could offer him salary, and how he was upset, but understood and recognized the reasons that the player left, and wished him the best of luck with his future.
On the other hand, yes, PuMa made the mistake of being quiet about it as coach lee stated and not speaking with him directly with a simple, "hey, EG offered me this nice contract and I am seriously considering it, I just wanted you to know". Even though Clide and SangHo said they kept quiet about their offers, I'm assuming they didn't take them seriously. Had they, I'm sure they would have said something to their coach, given the maturity levels they have shown. Instead, PuMa suddenly was like, "hey, I'm leaving, EG just offered me a contract", and packed his things. I can see that as something to look down on, but like I said, he is a young kid who probably doesn't know how to handle the situation. I guess that can be attributed to maturity (not in a bad way), but to fault EG seems weird to me. PuMa himself knows he bobbled the situation, and said he is completely prepared to take the criticism that is likely to follow, but to direct hate or blame towards EG doesn't seem very logical. They see a dominant rising star player (korean or not), and express interest to the player. That happens in every sport. Watch the european football transfer market after the next world cup event. It would have gone smoother if PuMa had handled it better. Either he could have told the coach to contact EG, or told EG to contact the coach. Instead, he kind of made everything public himself and failed to connect the lines of communication between the two parties.
I don't dislike PuMa as a person or a player based on one little maturity error in handling something that takes a great deal of maturity and experience to handle correctly. It really isn't as big of a situation as it is being made out to be.
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
The players aren't involved in this, this would be just wrong in my opion. EG on the other hand "lost my support", not because that they signed (or will sign ...) Puma, just with their behavior towards this whole thing.
Also huge respect to Clide & SangHo for sticking to their team, even returning saleries to help the team. I liked them before, but that hardend it a bit more. Also nice to hear the background on the departure of Rain.
Ty @ wtreddit for translating!
The only way to let EG know we don't like them is to take it out on their product: their players. It's not like they do anything big as a team effort.
You're A) wrong and B) an ass.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Going to MLG and booing players is completely pointless, spiteful and incredibly rude.
How is it pointless? You don't think their sponsors will notice?
You don't even know what EG did. We've heard one side of the story, and that was from a disgruntled coach whose team is falling apart. Obviously there are issues here with this team and he is ADMITTING THEY ARE HAVING PROBLEMS. It sounds to me like this thing is a sinking ship. They have no money, almost lost their sponsor, this guy might be nice and all but at what point does loyalty and stupidity start to look the same?
For all we know EG went up to him and said, "Hey would you like to join us?" He could have just said, "No I'm with TSL thanks."
People need to wake up. You don't think this is how shit works in the real world?
Ok, how about everyone in this thread trade places with Puma. What we know he'll get from EG : Salary - Guaranteed money. Opportunity to Travel the world - Earn more money attending more winnable tournaments. Exposure - He'll gain more fans traveling and have more sponsor opportunities.
What he was getting from TSL : No Salary. Occasional chances to travel to tournaments, but no promises to be able to attend MLG's, Dreamhack, etc. Being a part of a team struggling financially and risky their sponsorship. Credit for being loyal and hoping somehow the team turns around after losing several good players. Loyalty is great, but it doesn't pay the bills or put food on the table 3 years from now when he is no longer to play SC2 at a high level.
Seems like a pretty obvious and smart choice. Clide should have left too and he'll regret not leaving. This happens in business all the time, happens in sports all the time, I don't get why people are shocked, I don't get why anyone is mad at Puma, I don't get why anyone is mad at EG. If TSL was a better team providing a setup that their players enjoyed they wouldn't be hemorrhaging players left and right. If you know the business you worked at was going under and another job came along would you stay loyal knowing things looked bad and pass up on the job? I wouldn't.
On July 22 2011 13:16 AlBundy wrote: So this is all because the Korean sc2 scene is not well established enough. Man, if sc2's popularity doesn't take off in Korea, I dont know what'll happen... If sc2 doesn't survive in korea then I fear for its international future.
Al you know how this thing works in these here parts, when the new game comes out everyone flocks to it. Nature of the beast sadly.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
People complained about the KESPA-way of doing things with iron clad contracts. They tried to be more relaxed/trusting in SC2, but it didn't work out and things are going to turn more into a KESPA situation in the future. Especially with teams like EG trying to poach top Korean players.
Yeah a player wanted to switch teams and was uncomfortable about it and so was slow to talk to his coach about the fact that he was leaving his uncontracted position on the team. Tempers flared a little and TLers brewed up an entirely unnecessary shit storm for no fucking reason in minutes as usual. Let's fuck over all the players now, certainly it's the right course of action, no?
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
The players aren't involved in this, this would be just wrong in my opion. EG on the other hand "lost my support", not because that they signed (or will sign ...) Puma, just with their behavior towards this whole thing.
Also huge respect to Clide & SangHo for sticking to their team, even returning saleries to help the team. I liked them before, but that hardend it a bit more. Also nice to hear the background on the departure of Rain.
Ty @ wtreddit for translating!
The only way to let EG know we don't like them is to take it out on their product: their players. It's not like they do anything big as a team effort
The players are the most important part of the organization, you can't really support EG's players but not support EG. They don't care if you don't support the management as long as you support their players.
True words. My point was that booing at MLG isn't the right way. I don't like it in the football stadium too. I'm sure, its a personal point of view, but I dont call that good sportsmanship.
before i never liked tsl too much, but not I have respect.. they have a solid core and I think they will rebound, esp. with the loyalty shown by clide and killer. with alive and revivial also in the wings it's not a bad squad that is up 2-0 in GSTL already, will easily make the playoffs.
Mr. Lee is obviously mismanaging his business and the exodus of players is proof. Really don't care what he says, if he had kept his mouth shut a few more days (at least waited until Puma SIGNED the EG contract) everything would have been fine AND EG.Alex would have had a chance to talk to him.
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
The players aren't involved in this, this would be just wrong in my opion. EG on the other hand "lost my support", not because that they signed (or will sign ...) Puma, just with their behavior towards this whole thing.
Also huge respect to Clide & SangHo for sticking to their team, even returning saleries to help the team. I liked them before, but that hardend it a bit more. Also nice to hear the background on the departure of Rain.
Ty @ wtreddit for translating!
The only way to let EG know we don't like them is to take it out on their product: their players. It's not like they do anything big as a team effort.
You're A) wrong and B) an ass.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Going to MLG and booing players is completely pointless, spiteful and incredibly rude.
You can call them what you want, but showing displeasure with management by booing the team because they make bad decisions and show poor performance is actually very common in every sport.
I'm a huge fan of the Toronto Maple Leafs and when I go to the games I'm used to watching my team get hounded. It doesn't matter who you are. The fan boys and bandwagoners are absolutely shameless.
Good read, but depressing at the same time. Since it looks like SlayerS won't be winning this GSTL I hope that TSL can.
Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport.
I feel like much of this burden is on Blizzard to make great expansions. Watching the OSL from time to time, I'm reminded why Korean audiences are content with the older game.
On July 22 2011 13:41 Jiddra wrote: Sounds like he isn't happy with the way GOM runs the GSL or how the SC2 license is used in Korea.
Exclusive rights for SC2 in Korea for GOM certainly isn't helping scene.
TBH I don't see that as an excuse given they can just sublicense it from GOM like OGN has for WCG. I think it looms more on the fact that KeSPA vs Blizzard really kept fans away for far too long and it hasn't gotten good publicity/exposure. Hopefully that changes and fans tune into WCG giving OGN incentive to buy another license and try their hand.
On July 22 2011 13:49 felizuno wrote: Mr. Lee is obviously mismanaging his business and the exodus of players is proof. Really don't care what he says, if he had kept his mouth shut a few more days (at least waited until Puma SIGNED the EG contract) everything would have been fine AND EG.Alex would have had a chance to talk to him.
Mr. Lee = out, like in the Kenny Powers sense
The EG guys had 10 days to contact him, they chose not to.
Maybe he should keep his mouth shut until EG steals another one of his players next time.
God why am I replying to an idiotic post like this....
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
The players aren't involved in this, this would be just wrong in my opion. EG on the other hand "lost my support", not because that they signed (or will sign ...) Puma, just with their behavior towards this whole thing.
Also huge respect to Clide & SangHo for sticking to their team, even returning saleries to help the team. I liked them before, but that hardend it a bit more. Also nice to hear the background on the departure of Rain.
Ty @ wtreddit for translating!
The only way to let EG know we don't like them is to take it out on their product: their players. It's not like they do anything big as a team effort.
You're A) wrong and B) an ass.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Going to MLG and booing players is completely pointless, spiteful and incredibly rude.
You can call them what you want, but showing displeasure with management by booing the team because they make bad decisions and show poor performance is actually very common in every sport.
I'm a huge fan of the Toronto Maple Leafs and when I go to the games I'm used to watching my team get hounded. It doesn't matter who you are. The fan boys and bandwagoners are absolutely shameless.
But what the hell did the players do? Kind weak logic. They are just playing, criticize and e-mail the management if your are so deeply affected, but the players don't deserve this childish crap.
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
The players aren't involved in this, this would be just wrong in my opion. EG on the other hand "lost my support", not because that they signed (or will sign ...) Puma, just with their behavior towards this whole thing.
Also huge respect to Clide & SangHo for sticking to their team, even returning saleries to help the team. I liked them before, but that hardend it a bit more. Also nice to hear the background on the departure of Rain.
Ty @ wtreddit for translating!
The only way to let EG know we don't like them is to take it out on their product: their players. It's not like they do anything big as a team effort.
You're A) wrong and B) an ass.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Going to MLG and booing players is completely pointless, spiteful and incredibly rude.
You can call them what you want, but showing displeasure with management by booing the team because they make bad decisions and show poor performance is actually very common in every sport.
I'm a huge fan of the Toronto Maple Leafs and when I go to the games I'm used to watching my team get hounded. It doesn't matter who you are. The fan boys and bandwagoners are absolutely shameless.
But what the hell did the players do? Kind weak logic. They are just playing, criticize and e-mail the management if your are so deeply affected, but the players don't deserve this childish crap.
Sending emails to the management is completely worthless. If you want to go the email route you would be better off emailing the sponsors.
On July 22 2011 13:35 lyAsakura wrote: Is that the same coach as the one in MBC? Huh.
Yes. Same coach Lee. From "Hyung Joon becomes a progamer" (that's where I know him from).
Overall: Emergency meeting from all SC2 Assosciation teams. Have every player sign a contract immeditately "If you dont sign you can find your own EG now!". Similiar to KPOP idols contracts who are bound for YEARS after a debut to the company. Or just ask Kespa for help Korean teams saved.
If that doesnt happen: Korean players take the top positions (and top salaries) in a team. Who do you think is getting payed more on EG? Puma or Machine/Incontrol & co? Foreign teams benefit greatly from acquiring those Koreans. The Korean players benefit (if they find a good practice environment). We fans benefit from it (since we can see more Koreans at international events) though some people like to have local champions / players.
As I thought it seems the ¨raging¨ from the coach was nothing more than disappointment.
sigh, I don´t know why we got all the drama from this. To me it seemed like he was just venting on how crappy to him it was that EG approaches Puma knowing he was on a Team.
Thanks for posting this.
Edit: I also found it funny that foreign teams approached CLIIIIIIIIIDE. Oh Artosis
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
The players aren't involved in this, this would be just wrong in my opion. EG on the other hand "lost my support", not because that they signed (or will sign ...) Puma, just with their behavior towards this whole thing.
Also huge respect to Clide & SangHo for sticking to their team, even returning saleries to help the team. I liked them before, but that hardend it a bit more. Also nice to hear the background on the departure of Rain.
Ty @ wtreddit for translating!
The only way to let EG know we don't like them is to take it out on their product: their players. It's not like they do anything big as a team effort.
You're A) wrong and B) an ass.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Going to MLG and booing players is completely pointless, spiteful and incredibly rude.
You can call them what you want, but showing displeasure with management by booing the team because they make bad decisions and show poor performance is actually very common in every sport.
I'm a huge fan of the Toronto Maple Leafs and when I go to the games I'm used to watching my team get hounded. It doesn't matter who you are. The fan boys and bandwagoners are absolutely shameless.
But what the hell did the players do? Kind weak logic. They are just playing, criticize and e-mail the management if your are so deeply affected, but the players don't deserve this childish crap.
Sending emails to the management is completely worthless. If you want to go the email route you would be better off emailing the sponsors.
Better then taking it out of people who are completely irrelevant to an issue.
On July 22 2011 13:49 felizuno wrote: Mr. Lee is obviously mismanaging his business and the exodus of players is proof. Really don't care what he says, if he had kept his mouth shut a few more days (at least waited until Puma SIGNED the EG contract) everything would have been fine AND EG.Alex would have had a chance to talk to him.
Mr. Lee = out, like in the Kenny Powers sense
The EG guys had 10 days to contact him, they chose not to.
Maybe he should keep his mouth shut until EG steals another one of his players next time.
God why am I replying to an idiotic post like this....
Puma wasn't under contract nor was he even getting a salary if I've read things correctly. At what point is he actually "his player" and at what point is he just a dude living in his house playing video games?
Sounds like he was doing a poor job securing his team financially.
I mean all the people in this thread upset at Puma, were you going to send him money every month 2 years from now when his SC2 skills have slipped and he is looking for a job? How much food does loyalty buy at the local Korean markets? I love how people will sit here and criticize but you know if they were in Puma position you'd take the deal just as he did.
On July 22 2011 13:49 felizuno wrote: Mr. Lee is obviously mismanaging his business and the exodus of players is proof. Really don't care what he says, if he had kept his mouth shut a few more days (at least waited until Puma SIGNED the EG contract) everything would have been fine AND EG.Alex would have had a chance to talk to him.
Mr. Lee = out, like in the Kenny Powers sense
Alex said he approached Puma when he was Top4 in NASL. Look at your calendar and tell me how long ago NASL was. "No chance to talk"
I feel as though people glossed over the most important part of the interview by praising Clide/Sangho. " If PuMa was placed in Code S, I believe he would not have taken the deal. From the Korean player’s perspective, getting into Code S is hard, and winning the GSL is even harder, thus the door of opportunity is very narrow." Guess what the former two have that Puma doesn't. One worthwhile league is not enough, especially with such a top heavy prize pool.
On July 22 2011 12:49 StyLeD wrote: EG.....nice on the outside, they seem like normal people, jackasses on the inside. I'm not supporting EG or Puma anymore...
I honestly hope their players get booed at MLG, I dont think they will take anything the community says seriously until their sponsors notice.
The players aren't involved in this, this would be just wrong in my opion. EG on the other hand "lost my support", not because that they signed (or will sign ...) Puma, just with their behavior towards this whole thing.
Also huge respect to Clide & SangHo for sticking to their team, even returning saleries to help the team. I liked them before, but that hardend it a bit more. Also nice to hear the background on the departure of Rain.
Ty @ wtreddit for translating!
The only way to let EG know we don't like them is to take it out on their product: their players. It's not like they do anything big as a team effort.
You're A) wrong and B) an ass.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Going to MLG and booing players is completely pointless, spiteful and incredibly rude.
You can call them what you want, but showing displeasure with management by booing the team because they make bad decisions and show poor performance is actually very common in every sport.
I'm a huge fan of the Toronto Maple Leafs and when I go to the games I'm used to watching my team get hounded. It doesn't matter who you are. The fan boys and bandwagoners are absolutely shameless.
But what the hell did the players do? Kind weak logic. They are just playing, criticize and e-mail the management if your are so deeply affected, but the players don't deserve this childish crap.
Sending emails to the management is completely worthless. If you want to go the email route you would be better off emailing the sponsors.
Better then taking it out of people who are completely irrelevant to an issue.
It's very unfortunate, but it happens. No one is safe. Not Ron Wilson; not Brian Burke; and not the players. We call it Blue and White Disease.
On July 22 2011 13:49 felizuno wrote: Mr. Lee is obviously mismanaging his business and the exodus of players is proof. Really don't care what he says, if he had kept his mouth shut a few more days (at least waited until Puma SIGNED the EG contract) everything would have been fine AND EG.Alex would have had a chance to talk to him.
Mr. Lee = out, like in the Kenny Powers sense
The EG guys had 10 days to contact him, they chose not to.
Maybe he should keep his mouth shut until EG steals another one of his players next time.
God why am I replying to an idiotic post like this....
FFS puma said that he will tell TSL HIMSELF, if he didnt want to do it himslef obviously EG would have done it.
let me quote how i feel about reaplying your post: "God why am I replying to an idiotic post like this...."
On July 22 2011 13:49 felizuno wrote: Mr. Lee is obviously mismanaging his business and the exodus of players is proof. Really don't care what he says, if he had kept his mouth shut a few more days (at least waited until Puma SIGNED the EG contract) everything would have been fine AND EG.Alex would have had a chance to talk to him.
Mr. Lee = out, like in the Kenny Powers sense
The EG guys had 10 days to contact him, they chose not to.
Maybe he should keep his mouth shut until EG steals another one of his players next time.
God why am I replying to an idiotic post like this....
Puma wasn't under contract nor was he even getting a salary if I've read things correctly. At what point is he actually "his player" and at what point is he just a dude living in his house playing video games?
Sounds like he was doing a poor job securing his team financially.
I mean all the people in this thread upset at Puma, were you going to send him money every month 2 years from now when his SC2 skills have slipped and he is looking for a job? How much food does loyalty buy at the local Korean markets? I love how people will sit here and criticize but you know if they were in Puma position you'd take the deal just as he did.
nobody has a problem with Puma, they are talking about EG staff contacting TSL
No...not even close. Lebron was disliked because he made a mockery of Cleveland with his public decision and the celebration he did afterwards.
Not that part - more so the part where he gave Cleveland a false sense of hope - kept his decision quiet from everyone and went for the monies and apparent glory.
Now that you mentioned it though.. going to be funny if EG gives PuMa a celebration :D
I think Koreans really have a dire need to seek foreign sponsorship. I'm not sure, but it seems like a pretty safe bet that a lot of foreign companies will be very willing to sponsor Korean teams, given the amount of foreign exposure the GSL gets.
Also I think Korean TEAMS (not just GOM) need to start reaching out and marketing to the global community in a more direct way. I believe Wolf said that ZeNEX were starting to do this, by getting English translators etc. They can't just hope that the Korean scene embraces them and have to adapt to where the money is.
On July 22 2011 13:49 felizuno wrote: Mr. Lee is obviously mismanaging his business and the exodus of players is proof. Really don't care what he says, if he had kept his mouth shut a few more days (at least waited until Puma SIGNED the EG contract) everything would have been fine AND EG.Alex would have had a chance to talk to him.
Mr. Lee = out, like in the Kenny Powers sense
The EG guys had 10 days to contact him, they chose not to.
Maybe he should keep his mouth shut until EG steals another one of his players next time.
God why am I replying to an idiotic post like this....
FFS puma said that he will tell TSL HIMSELF, if he didnt want to do it himslef obviously EG would have done it.
let me quote how i feel about reaplying your post: "God why am I replying to an idiotic post like this...."
if he had kept his mouth shut a few more days (at least waited until Puma SIGNED the EG contract) everything would have been fine AND EG.Alex would have had a chance to talk to him.
So at the end EG didn't do anything wrong and Mr. Lee should just STFU?
R u seriously trying to counter my counter argument to the post I quoted, by arguing against the post I quoted?
On July 22 2011 14:09 pdd wrote: it seems like a pretty safe bet that a lot of foreign companies will be very willing to sponsor Korean teams, given the amount of foreign exposure the GSL gets.
Why sponsor some Korean players when the korean market has next to no RoI when you can sponsor NA/EU players and get a much higher RoI, sponsorship isn't charity.
Yea I dont see anything wrong with whats going on personally, I dont like it but I dont think its really that bad a deal.
That having been said its a bit concerning that players get talked to behind their managers backs. Ever heard of 2 weeks notice ?
its very easy to say "OH but hes securing his financial future".. How exaclty is moving to a new country where you dont know the language, things might not work out, the whole big fish in a small pond thing, SECURE ?
Many of you people dont realise the allure of living in this country or europe because you take it for granted. For foreigner of simple means and just a love for games its a really really big deal. But it is not neccessarily better, its just as much of a risk..
I am one of said foreigners who steal your jobs I know..(im sorry btw but I have to secure my financial future to khekhekhe)
I dont think Lee said anything that bad really. He even said they parted amicably and expressed that he was somewhat hurt and frustrated (a natural response when you get a small bomb dropped on you)
The fact that he left TSL is not an issue for most people. Its the manner in which it was conducted is what upsets most ppl.
What do you think Lee would have said if it was done properly ? Keep an unhappy player ? Sure he puma may have been less inclined to agree if he was contracted but would he doubt that he wouldnt get one ? With regards to the team being financially constrained yea thats problematic and I feel for them.
On July 22 2011 14:09 pdd wrote: I think Koreans really have a dire need to seek foreign sponsorship. I'm not sure, but it seems like a pretty safe bet that a lot of foreign companies will be very willing to sponsor Korean teams, given the amount of foreign exposure the GSL gets.
Also I think Korean TEAMS (not just GOM) need to start reaching out and marketing to the global community in a more direct way. I believe Wolf said that ZeNEX were starting to do this, by getting English translators etc. They can't just hope that the Korean scene embraces them and have to adapt to where the money is.
I agree. GSL reaches out to nearly all the global Starcraft fans, there has to be some good return on investment in that. Hopefully more get on the ball with some nice translators to help out.
Coach Lee says it all. The biggest reason for any korean to migrate to the foreign scene is for the money. Easy win. Taking down a gsl is THE HARDEST thing to do in sc2 right now.
On July 22 2011 14:12 Rebs wrote: Yea I dont see anything wrong with whats going on personally, I dont like it but I dont think its really that bad a deal.
That having been said its a bit concerning that players get talked to behind their managers backs. Ever heard of 2 weeks notice ?
its very easy to say "OH but hes securing his financial future".. How exaclty is moving to a new country where you dont know the language, things might not work out, the whole big fish in a small pond thing, SECURE ?
Many of you people dont realise the allure of living in this country or europe because you take it for granted. For foreigner of simple means and just a love for games its a really really big deal. But it is not neccessarily better, its just as much of a risk..
I am one of said foreigners who steal your jobs I know..(im sorry btw but I have to secure my financial future to khekhekhe)
I dont think Lee said anything that bad really. He even said they parted amicably and expressed that he was somewhat hurt and frustrated (a natural response when you get a small bomb dropped on you)
The fact that he left TSL is not an issue for most people. Its the manner in which it was conducted is what upsets most ppl.
What do you think Lee would have said if it was done properly ? Keep an unhappy player ? Sure he puma may have been less inclined to agree if he was contracted but would he doubt that he wouldnt get one ? With regards to the team being financially constrained yea thats problematic and I feel for them.
He wasn't his manager, he was a coach for the team puma didn't belong too, but played for him for room and board
On July 22 2011 13:49 felizuno wrote: Mr. Lee is obviously mismanaging his business and the exodus of players is proof. Really don't care what he says, if he had kept his mouth shut a few more days (at least waited until Puma SIGNED the EG contract) everything would have been fine AND EG.Alex would have had a chance to talk to him.
Mr. Lee = out, like in the Kenny Powers sense
The EG guys had 10 days to contact him, they chose not to.
Maybe he should keep his mouth shut until EG steals another one of his players next time.
God why am I replying to an idiotic post like this....
FFS puma said that he will tell TSL HIMSELF, if he didnt want to do it himslef obviously EG would have done it.
let me quote how i feel about reaplying your post: "God why am I replying to an idiotic post like this...."
if he had kept his mouth shut a few more days (at least waited until Puma SIGNED the EG contract) everything would have been fine AND EG.Alex would have had a chance to talk to him.
So at the end EG didn't do anything wrong and Mr. Lee should just STFU?
R u seriously trying to counter my counter argument to the post I quoted, by arguing against the post I quoted?
Use ur logic much?
at the end EG didn't do anything wrong, and lee can say Whatever he wants. i never sayed he should STFU, you did -.-
On July 22 2011 14:09 pdd wrote: it seems like a pretty safe bet that a lot of foreign companies will be very willing to sponsor Korean teams, given the amount of foreign exposure the GSL gets.
Why sponsor some Korean players when the korean market has next to no RoI when you can sponsor NA/EU players and get a much higher RoI, sponsorship isn't charity.
Sponsors ROI is mainly based on advertising and marketing benefits, not how well the player does in a tournament. I'm just thinking there must be some benefits to sponsoring Koreans which foreign companies aren't really capitalizing on right now.
Having said that, if Koreans build a larger rapport with the foreign community, it would improve their chances of getting a lucrative foreign sponsorship. And right now foreign companies seem more willing to sponsor SC2 than Korean companies.
well, i really hope the best for TSL. I understand Puma has needs and such that he has to fulfill, but it's always hard to take that side over the united team trying to make a difference.
I have to admit that i payed much less attention to TSL than the other teams and once all these players started leaving it seemed like they were really falling apart. It's actually a little relieving to hear that the problem was more because they're trying to improve their established system than keeping one that doesn't work. Hope they take some hints from what's worked with the other teams, and a little individuality to get exactly what works for them.
gl to all the TSL players. TSL Fighting!!!
Edit: 666 post. what does it mean? sign MY contract xD
So hard to decide which team I dislike more EG or FXO. All the blatant player poaching and lackluster results is making it hard to pick a most hated.
ALso Rysecake is right the reason the Koreans are jumping ship is because the money is in the foreign tournaments that they KNOW they can dominate. No foreigners (aside from the ones that practice in Korea) will stand a chance against the Koreans that are going to be taking over the foreign tournaments.
Coach Lee sounds like an emotional man, completely changing his tune in this interview as compared to the one here. In the link above, Lee blames PuMa for leaving and EG for not talking to the coach first. In the interview in this thread, Lee blames himself.
Lee is correct in blaming himself for the debacle. PuMa got a place to live and practice in the TSL house -- cool, but if even this is not certain, and a job offer with heaps of money and opportunities exists, I would go as well. Don't blame PuMa. EG saw an excellent player that loved the foreign scene, and offered him wheelbarrows of greenbacks and a personal courtier to push them around for his use. EG is not to blame.
Whereas Lee didn't produce much results in the house, didn't put players on contracts, and subsequently raged at EG for not knowing/respecting a minor point of etiquette in talking to the coach when offering a contract to a player. Furthermore, Lee made it sound like the TSL house was clouds for pillows and ambrosia for breakfast, and that PuMa was betraying him and the team by leaving.
EG is not guiltless. I am astounded that they have not put out an official statement yet and instead resort to responding to flamers on SirScoots' twitter.
On July 22 2011 13:49 felizuno wrote: Mr. Lee is obviously mismanaging his business and the exodus of players is proof. Really don't care what he says, if he had kept his mouth shut a few more days (at least waited until Puma SIGNED the EG contract) everything would have been fine AND EG.Alex would have had a chance to talk to him.
Mr. Lee = out, like in the Kenny Powers sense
The EG guys had 10 days to contact him, they chose not to.
Maybe he should keep his mouth shut until EG steals another one of his players next time.
God why am I replying to an idiotic post like this....
FFS puma said that he will tell TSL HIMSELF, if he didnt want to do it himslef obviously EG would have done it.
let me quote how i feel about reaplying your post: "God why am I replying to an idiotic post like this...."
if he had kept his mouth shut a few more days (at least waited until Puma SIGNED the EG contract) everything would have been fine AND EG.Alex would have had a chance to talk to him.
So at the end EG didn't do anything wrong and Mr. Lee should just STFU?
R u seriously trying to counter my counter argument to the post I quoted, by arguing against the post I quoted?
Use ur logic much?
at the end EG didn't do anything wrong, and lee can say Whatever he wants. i never sayed he should STFU, you did -.-
No, the original idiotic post did, and maybe u should read it before u reply and support it.
Clide is the man... Now I understand Tastosis feelings for him.
This story is so sad. I am now rooting for TSL in the GSTL. Hopefully PuMa can do well too in EG so that he won't feel that he won't regret his decision.
has it ever occured to people that despite the better players being in korea, there might actually be more of a "scene" over here?
the only tournament run by korea is GSL, and it's not a hit as far as i understand. i'm curious as to what the numbers are, but it's possible that the West has a larger scene...
On July 22 2011 13:49 felizuno wrote: Mr. Lee is obviously mismanaging his business and the exodus of players is proof. Really don't care what he says, if he had kept his mouth shut a few more days (at least waited until Puma SIGNED the EG contract) everything would have been fine AND EG.Alex would have had a chance to talk to him.
Mr. Lee = out, like in the Kenny Powers sense
The EG guys had 10 days to contact him, they chose not to.
Maybe he should keep his mouth shut until EG steals another one of his players next time.
God why am I replying to an idiotic post like this....
FFS puma said that he will tell TSL HIMSELF, if he didnt want to do it himslef obviously EG would have done it.
let me quote how i feel about reaplying your post: "God why am I replying to an idiotic post like this...."
if he had kept his mouth shut a few more days (at least waited until Puma SIGNED the EG contract) everything would have been fine AND EG.Alex would have had a chance to talk to him.
So at the end EG didn't do anything wrong and Mr. Lee should just STFU?
R u seriously trying to counter my counter argument to the post I quoted, by arguing against the post I quoted?
Use ur logic much?
at the end EG didn't do anything wrong, and lee can say Whatever he wants. i never sayed he should STFU, you did -.-
No, the original idiotic post did, and maybe u should read it before u reply and support it.
Maybe i should *reading original post* K i'm a retard -.-
On July 22 2011 14:17 Mazeltov wrote: So hard to decide which team I dislike more EG or FXO. All the blatant player poaching and lackluster results is making it hard to pick a most hated.
ALso Rysecake is right the reason the Koreans are jumping ship is because the money is in the foreign tournaments that they KNOW they can dominate. No foreigners (aside from the ones that practice in Korea) will stand a chance against the Koreans that are going to be taking over the foreign tournaments.
Choya (coach/manager of fou) came to FXOboss and proposed the deal to merge the team. FXO didn't steal people. I think if FXO wanted to steal people they would have just chosen all the top players from every team instead of just merging with the entire team... just for your information
What Sangho and Clide did for the team would be a norm as a top player in a team would do when their team is going through a tough time in Korea. I feel great respect for them!
People are taking this a bit too much to heart. Like it or not, pro sc2 is a business, and in business you have to go in the direction that you feel is best, which is what Puma did. However, I will say that it was kind of dumb of Coach Lee not to put them on contract.
Artosis is right guys. Clide is the best player in the world. Manner wise and skill wise ( he has just been unlucky so far).
Actually it is funny how Clide has so many international fans just because of Artosis hype. Of course then he proceeded to justify it by intentionally not putting Huk and Jinro in the same group even if it means that he has to be in the same group as Nestea. Nestea over Huk guys. And Huk at that time was BAD for code S level. Not even close to his skill level now.
And then he proceeded to stay loyal and donated his salary back to his struggling team??? WHAT A BALLER.
Now that we know he is loyal. Please please MLG or DH or IEM please invite Clide ( and SangHo) to foreign tournaments. No risk of being poached so TSL should not worry. And hopefully he will know that the international scene appreciates a man with such characters.
Good for Puma. The career of a progamer is short and volatile. You have to do what you need to do to take care yourself and your family. Loyalty is admirable but if it doesn't pay bills, what good is it?
I really do hope we see more leagues come up besides the GSL before GOMTV's 2 years are up. I know they'll have to prematurely reliquish their broadcasting exclusivity but it just doesn't help the korean scene to have only 1 league running. The players need other events and more games will mean more chance to get noticed by new fans and sponors.
I kinda suspected the korean scene wasn't going as well as it was hoped and you can tell how much the international fanbase matters more to GOM now with their partnership with MLG and hosting the October Code S Finals at Blizzcon. I guess they need to compensate for the continued lukewarm reception in korea. Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad they're expanding their horizons but now I'm fairly sure it's more out of necessity than anything else.
On July 22 2011 14:17 Mazeltov wrote: So hard to decide which team I dislike more EG or FXO. All the blatant player poaching and lackluster results is making it hard to pick a most hated.
ALso Rysecake is right the reason the Koreans are jumping ship is because the money is in the foreign tournaments that they KNOW they can dominate. No foreigners (aside from the ones that practice in Korea) will stand a chance against the Koreans that are going to be taking over the foreign tournaments.
Choya (coach/manager of fou) came to FXOboss and proposed the deal to merge the team. FXO didn't steal people. I think if FXO wanted to steal people they would have just chosen all the top players from every team instead of just merging with the entire team... just for your information
His er, dislike of FXO stems from the "lackluster results". Not the merging of FXO and Fou.
there was a reason fruitdealer and tester left. why is everyone blaming eg on this one? maybe puma didnt want to be part of the team anymore ethier and eg saw an opportunity and ask him to join.
no contract seriously? thats probably the dumbest thing i heard from a professional team.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
I can give you plenty of real-life examples of Koreans renegging on contracts, going back on their word, siphoning money out of workers' pensions, tax evasion, etc. Comments like the above are ignorant. Public disgrace is taken rather seriously, but that doesn't matter if you don't get caught.
Puma had no contract so he was free to make his own decision. Did they even think to offer him one the minute he got off a plane after winning NASL??
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
I can give you plenty of real-life examples of Koreans renegging on contracts, going back on their word, siphoning money out of workers' pensions, tax evasion, etc. Comments like the above are ignorant. Public disgrace is taken rather seriously, but that doesn't matter if you don't get caught.
Puma had no contract so he was free to make his own decision. Did they even think to offer him one the minute he got off a plane after winning NASL??
E-Sports Business in korea is *quite* different from Actual business in Korea. ESports is branded in Korea as the passion and innocence of youth.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
I can give you plenty of real-life examples of Koreans renegging on contracts, going back on their word, siphoning money out of workers' pensions, tax evasion, etc. Comments like the above are ignorant. Public disgrace is taken rather seriously, but that doesn't matter if you don't get caught.
Puma had no contract so he was free to make his own decision. Did they even think to offer him one the minute he got off a plane after winning NASL??
Yes, every human being and every culture is the same.
I have so much more respect for Clide and Sangho now. Puma did what he thought was best for himself but I still can't help but feel betrayed by him a little.
On July 22 2011 14:26 BluePanther wrote: has it ever occured to people that despite the better players being in korea, there might actually be more of a "scene" over here?
the only tournament run by korea is GSL, and it's not a hit as far as i understand. i'm curious as to what the numbers are, but it's possible that the West has a larger scene...
Just to put this in perspective, the prize pool for GSL is larger than all foreign tournaments combined. Of course, I'm talking about in the span of a month that GSL lasts.
On July 22 2011 14:34 Looky wrote: there was a reason fruitdealer and tester left. why is everyone blaming eg on this one? maybe puma didnt want to be part of the team anymore ethier and eg saw an opportunity and ask him to join.
no contract seriously? thats probably the dumbest thing i heard from a professional team.
Yup, I can't feel sorry for the coach as they should understand that the Western scene for SC2 is much stronger at this point, especially with the huge amount of competition just to get into code A let alone S...if most of the really good code B players see that over and over the qualifiers get harder why wouldn't you jump at the chance to compete all over the world and actually make some money. People keep talking about how it is a different culture, but SC2 is a huge phenomenon around the rest of the world at this moment and who knows how long that will last, it is just better to take advantage of while you still can. Who knows if some of the BW players come over to SC2 and make the scene in Korea even more difficult, it is all business at the end of the day.
I'm actually rather shocked that there are no tournaments other than GSL in Korea. Is there any explanation as to why this is? Is it lack of local interest or something else?
On July 22 2011 14:44 nvs. wrote: I'm actually rather shocked that there are no tournaments other than GSL in Korea. Is there any explanation as to why this is? Is it lack of local interest or something else?
You just don't watch them? There's the iCCup Korean Weekly as well as the FXOpen KOTH, and I think CSN does some stuff as well.
Clide displaying the unrivaled morals that he bestows to his marines.
I've only grown to like TSL more over this whole ordeal.
And won't PuMa be in danger of losing some of his luster over this since his new teammates won't exactly be (korean) pros, and I don't think EG exactly has a prohouse, etc etc?
While EG isn't full of bad players (they have idra...[jk jk]) I think even the remaining roster that TSL has will have considerably better practice material than EG will. Guess we'll see
Now that we actually have facts out in the open, I can't for the life of me see how people can still dump on EG and Puma so much.
EG handed out business cards and expressed interest in several players at NASL. That in itself is perfectly reasonable.
Puma was not getting much financial support in TSL, and saw an opportunity that was worth looking into. That is also perfectly reasonable.
The only thing people seem to be in a tiff over is the fact that Puma made the choice between "family" and a solid financial contract, which is apparently "extremely taboo" in Korea, or something. Everyone's making some huge deal over this supposed cultural difference, when it is perfectly clear that Puma made this decision for himself. Obviously the cultural factors don't mean what so many are assuming they do.
On July 22 2011 14:30 dtz wrote: Artosis is right guys. Clide is the best player in the world. Manner wise and skill wise ( he has just been unlucky so far).
Actually it is funny how Clide has so many international fans just because of Artosis hype. Of course then he proceeded to justify it by intentionally not putting Huk and Jinro in the same group even if it means that he has to be in the same group as Nestea. Nestea over Huk guys. And Huk at that time was BAD for code S level. Not even close to his skill level now.
And then he proceeded to stay loyal and donated his salary back to his struggling team??? WHAT A BALLER.
Now that we know he is loyal. Please please MLG or DH or IEM please invite Clide ( and SangHo) to foreign tournaments. No risk of being poached so TSL should not worry. And hopefully he will know that the international scene appreciates a man with such characters.
Yup - not to mention Clide somehow just provides the most entertaining games regardless of the actual level of skill being played lol (such as vs Leenock/Trickster).
I hope the best for the rest of TSL. So insightful to the passion of their remaining players unlike slackers FD and Tester haha. Yeah I know he has no beef with them. Honestly the big sponsor interest came BECAUSE of those two and when they didn't live up to expectations after the beta, sponsor interest, as I would have guessed it, waned. Weren't they the first big sponsored team? There was so much hype... yeah those two put up great results in the beta, but knowing that they left oGs because they didn't want to practice as much... why would a progaming team want to form around them? It's like a recipe for disaster.
Anyway, too much rambling. Hope for the best for TSL.
On July 22 2011 14:49 WolfintheSheep wrote: Now that we actually have facts out in the open, I can't for the life of me see how people can still dump on EG and Puma so much.
EG handed out business cards and expressed interest in several players at NASL. That in itself is perfectly reasonable.
Puma was not getting much financial support in TSL, and saw an opportunity that was worth looking into. That is also perfectly reasonable.
The only thing people seem to be in a tiff over is the fact that Puma made the choice between "family" and a solid financial contract, which is apparently "extremely taboo" in Korea, or something. Everyone's making some huge deal over this supposed cultural difference, when it is perfectly clear that Puma made this decision for himself. Obviously the cultural factors don't mean what so many are assuming they do.
yeah i feel like there's really no reason to hate on EG or PuMa for what happened, but EG could've definitely handled this a lot better without making coach lee feel like he was blindsided by PuMa leaving.
The argument "there's a reason FD and Tester left" that is used to try to cast doubt on Lee's coaching needs to stop. It's already been said that they left because they didn't want to deal with a stricter regimen that TSL was enforcing. Coach Lee understood their wishes and let them go with his blessings - he even helped them decide on their new team. There were no hard feelings there as there are with the PuMa situation.
EG just took advantage of a current weakness in the e-sports scene. Without an overarching body to manage the scene as in every pro sport, there is no way to stop a team approaching players of other teams with offers, etc. If you want to get a pro athlete to join your team, you ask around coaches, management, agents, etc to determine availability instead of going directly up to the player. Even if Puma had a contract with TSL, if EG came up to him and got him interested in a better one while he was away from the team and on his own, a) there's no way for his own team to respond, b) they've already destroyed the value of Puma to his team as he goes back like he did, withdrawn and changed, no longer truly part of the team and c) what would the penalty of him breaking the contract be? Could TSL's contract even bear weight on a foreign organization or would it have to just penalize the player? And if the player is penalized, is it monetary (in which case he just makes more money in the new contract and the penalty money is easily paid off)? Is it banning from tournaments (Can they only ban from Korean tournaments, and in which case it doesn't really affect him much since he sees the foreign scene as his source of money as he is a good, but not top korean competitor)? And so on.
Now, I'm not proposing KeSPA all over again. I think they have taken too many rights away from the players. I do think players should have the ability to more freely move between teams as better offers are found, but I also believe there has to be a way to ensure teams are compensated for the money, facilities, coaching, etc they supply for their players if it's via trades or money, whatever it may be. There also needs to be a way to ensure that teams go through a more appropriate means of communication when engaging in these things. Again, I think players being able to get themselves where they want to be is of the utmost important in sports, but you do have to balance that with ensuring teams can be stable and secure in developing their own players.
Edit: Rather than getting so upset about what has happened, I think we should spend more time wishing the best of luck to TSL, Puma and the others involved and use this as a catalyst to better the scene globally. As it's been said a lot in here, SC2 is global where BW was basically Korea only, and both communities should use this to change and improve the way they interact with each other.
On July 22 2011 14:34 Looky wrote: there was a reason fruitdealer and tester left. why is everyone blaming eg on this one? maybe puma didnt want to be part of the team anymore ethier and eg saw an opportunity and ask him to join.
no contract seriously? thats probably the dumbest thing i heard from a professional team.
Because EG did not contact Coach Lee first. They didn't follow some etiquette. In other words, EG BMed Coach Lee.
"That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams."
Please do try to read the OP of BOTH threads carefully. We already have too many people not fully understanding why, of all Korean-foreigner partnerships/acquisitions, this one happens to be a big deal (bigger in Korea).
yea say what you will, but I think this is just morally wrong by EG... I mean... sure you didn't break any rules or regulations, but you gotta learn to respect the team and the coach. I'm just disappointed, that's all. I don't think i'll look at the team EG the same ever again.
It seems so strange to me that now there are interviews like this, which seem to suggest a failure within Korea with respect to StarCraft. I love the fact that SC2 is doing so well in the rest of the world, but it'll be very interesting to see where SC2 goes from here. Part of what makes the Korean scene so competetive is that the relatively small geographical space allows for accessible pro houses. Sure, you can set up pro houses elsewhere, but they're less appealing when you have to move further away from friends and family to be a part of them.
Will Korea just be a breeding ground for good players before they get siphoned off to the west? That would be a hell of an interesting scenario if it became common place...
Ya I agree for the most part that what EG did was absolutely HORRIBLE! Imagine if when Idra was staying in korea if one of the teams just came out of nowhere asked him to play for them and didn't even talk to EG. EG would have been furious losing their star player and it's the same for TSL. I really wish EG would issue an apology at least.
I have gained a lot of respect for both the coach of TSL, as well as Sangho and Clide over their commitment to the team they began to play SC2 with. I am quite interested to hear an official statement from EG, especially if it manages to convey the incredible respectful and polite tone that Coach Lee took and found (I'm sure) incredibly difficult to maintain.
On July 22 2011 14:57 Ownos wrote: Because EG did not contact Coach Lee first.
"That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams."
Please do try to read the OP of BOTH threads carefully. We already have too many people not fully understanding why, of all Korean-foreigner partnerships/acquisitions, this one happens to be a big deal (bigger in Korea).
Ditto to you.
EG gave Puma a business card at NASL, when Puma was in the Ro4. I find it highly unlikely that they went into some big aggressive push when a player was still set to play the Semi-finals (and possibly finals) of a big tournament.
By all accounts, it was Puma that took the signing discussions further. While that doesn't change the fact that proper channels were ignored, you can't expect a team to shut the door in a player's face when he was the one that actually approached them seriously.
And while no one knows how the discussion between Lee and Puma actually went, I can at least imagine that Garfield thought Lee would be contacting him so they could have a mutual announcement.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
I can give you plenty of real-life examples of Koreans renegging on contracts, going back on their word, siphoning money out of workers' pensions, tax evasion, etc. Comments like the above are ignorant. Public disgrace is taken rather seriously, but that doesn't matter if you don't get caught.
Puma had no contract so he was free to make his own decision. Did they even think to offer him one the minute he got off a plane after winning NASL??
Yes, every human being and every culture is the same.
Don't be silly. If you don't have a contract, you don't have any claim. It's a bit offensive to have someone claim "honor" is more important in Asian culture than Western culture. My point is I think that's an invalid argument in this case. I think it's a great move by Puma and I look forward to seeing him play more in America.
On July 22 2011 15:03 Sworn wrote: Ya I agree for the most part that what EG did was absolutely HORRIBLE! Imagine if when Idra was staying in korea if one of the teams just came out of nowhere asked him to play for them and didn't even talk to EG. EG would have been furious losing their star player and it's the same for TSL. I really wish EG would issue an apology at least.
Yeah, it's absolutely horrible that EG pays their players. They are killing E-Sports! Stop with the overly dramatic BS already.
Shouldn't we care most about Puma? I mean, suppose EG didn't talk to him first but contacted TSL directly. Then what? Well at best it would have given TSL more time to guilt trip Puma into staying. At worst, they might have tried to deceive him (not saying they would have, just.. at worst you know..)
But in the end Puma would have probably still made this decision and TSL would be in the exact same shape they're in now.
edit: also, suppose Puma's skill starts dropping because TSLs practice regiment was just so much better. Everyone will see that, and then anytime a korean will get an offer from the west they'll say "no thanks you guys don't practice well enough" - anything can happen.
On July 22 2011 15:03 Sworn wrote: Ya I agree for the most part that what EG did was absolutely HORRIBLE! Imagine if when Idra was staying in korea if one of the teams just came out of nowhere asked him to play for them and didn't even talk to EG. EG would have been furious losing their star player and it's the same for TSL. I really wish EG would issue an apology at least.
1. EG wants a top level Korean player. 2. Top level Koreans come over to NASL finals. 3. EG hands out cards seeing if anyone is interested. 4. Puma is interested and talks to EG staff, when they find out he is open to the idea of working for them, has no contract and no salary they need to compete with they lay out what they are prepared to offer, Puma is interested but he wants to be the one to talk to his coach rather then EG, EG agrees. 5. Puma talks to his coach, coach isn't impressed and thinks that Puma and EG have gone and signed behind his back. (Please note that EG and Puma haven't signed or agreed to anything yet.) 6. Coach feels disrespected and starts this whole thing with his posts. 7. The standard drama fueled shitfest occurs. 8. EG finds out about all of this. 9. Coach clarifies what he meant / what happened as mis-communications start to get cleared up (hell he even throws Puma a goodbye party) 10. EG speaks out on Lo3, saying they didn't do anything wrong and they followed their potential new players wishs. (Again note that EG and Puma still haven't signed anything still.) 11. Dramallamas continue to frolic. 12. EG opens mouth and inserts foot re: what team liquid is for (while I agree partially with them this sure as hell wasn't the time). 13. Even more shit hits the fan as TL defends one of their own. 14. I eat an orange. 15. I write this post.
So where exactly in this chain of events do you think EG crossed the line and needs to apologize?
This was all basically EG doing their best to recruit some new blood, Puma doing his best to find the best option offered to him, TSL not being able to compete due to their lack of cash flow and a tragic misunderstanding between Puma and Coach Lee which started an epic drawn out shitfest.
I am so tired of reading "proper channels" over and over again. There are no proper channels between teams because the teams don't have agreements between themselves. The only thing that is of any substance is the contract between a player and his team. If this contract has backout clauses that need to be negotiated then the teams can talk but if there is nothing other than feelings and honor then it is all on the player.
the whole situation is just mind boggling. He is right, the korean sc2 scene is lagging behind. 1 Tournament in the "Nation's capital" so-to-speak, is just absurd. I am really glad the foreign scene is catching on but that means this kind of stuff will happen more often, because it is supposed to happen since there's really no reward for playing in korea. Really upsetting story.
I can't say I'm a big EG fan, but I'm having trouble seeing how they're the bad guys in this.
Not only did TSL not contract their players, they were in so much financial trouble that no was was getting paid. Players were even giving money back to the team to help it survive. How are they surprised that players would want to seek out other opportunities? Gotta pay people to keep them around, if you can't get sponsors or pay a salary,I don't see how you should expect your players to remain faithful.
I see this as a good thing for ESPORTS. The best players are following the money. If they do well and people show enthusiasm for this kind of thing, sponsors will start providing even more money. All this does is strengthen the competition and the scene as a whole, I'm all for it.
Oh, and put your players under contract, for god's sake. No contract = free agent = up for grabs.
It's really sad what has happened to TSL. As I was a big TSL fan as soon as fruitdealer and Tester joined them, especially since I recognized Coach Lee from Hyung Joon Becomes a pro gamer. With Fruitdealers beautiful play in season one that set the standard for GSL play and My personal sc2 crush on Tester since I main protoss. But with rain, puma, FD, ssks, all leaving it's kind of sad, it seemed at one time that TSL was by far the most dominant SC2 team, and now they are in turmoil.
I hope Coach Lee can summon some words of wisdom and motivation that will help to make this team into a top SC2 team once again.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
I can give you plenty of real-life examples of Koreans renegging on contracts, going back on their word, siphoning money out of workers' pensions, tax evasion, etc. Comments like the above are ignorant. Public disgrace is taken rather seriously, but that doesn't matter if you don't get caught.
Puma had no contract so he was free to make his own decision. Did they even think to offer him one the minute he got off a plane after winning NASL??
Yes, every human being and every culture is the same.
Don't be silly. If you don't have a contract, you don't have any claim. It's a bit offensive to have someone claim "honor" is more important in Asian culture than Western culture. My point is I think that's an invalid argument in this case. I think it's a great move by Puma and I look forward to seeing him play more in America.
By no means is it offensive, it is in fact true. If you put everything on a whiteboard then it's completely fair and legal. I agree on this point. By no means did AG do anything illegal. However the means he took to aquire a player, while in the western world, is perfectly fine and acceptable, but in Korea is extremely disrespectful. The coach treats his players as his own children, he feeds them, gives them a place to stay, and tries to do his utmost to assist them. When Clide and Sangho both feel indebted enough to give back their stipends/salary to help the team, you know how strong the bond is.
I can guarantee you AG does not share the same bond with his players, he may meet them several times a month, review salaries and performance, maybe drop by once in a while to watch practice, but the western system doesn't allow for such loyalties to form.
On July 22 2011 15:19 SlipperySnake wrote: I am so tired of reading "proper channels" over and over again. There are no proper channels between teams because the teams don't have agreements between themselves. The only thing that is of any substance is the contract between a player and his team. If this contract has backout clauses that need to be negotiated then the teams can talk but if there is nothing other than feelings and honor then it is all on the player.
All this faux outrage is just ridiculous.
I know what you mean. All I'm really getting from this is that Korean teams are somehow "family", and Coach Lee thinks there should be a system in place to stop "family members" from leaving if they want to.
If the cultural bond was really as strong as all these posters say it is, Puma wouldn't have talked with EG at all.
Sigh I hope Coach Lee gets more support. Clide and Killer deserve major respect, they show they really care about the team and their passion for the game.
I actually feel happy for Puma, able to walk away to gain a better living and more enjoyment from starcraft 2. Not saying that TSL should fall/collapse through, I honestly think that a person would always choose whatever he values more. Some values their team more, some values their own future/enjoyment more.
Good luck to Coach Lee and TSL. All my best wishes to them at this time, and honestly, if I could, I'd give the entire TSL team a big hug right now.
Having said that, this entire shitstorm seems to have started because of simple miscommunication from all parties involved, EG, TSL, and Puma. I don't mean to point fingers here, because I believe it's clear that everyone made some missteps - Puma in asking to be the one to break it to TSL when he knows that EG should be the one to contact them, EG in agreeing to that course of action, Puma in dancing around the bush before finally breaking it to Coach Lee but then subsequently not making it clear that he was not yet signed, Coach Lee in making such an early, emotional comment based on false information, and finally EG in not making an official remark for hours when it's clear that they've been aware of this controversy from almost the very instant that it broke out and then sending out AG on WoC to try to do some damage control. It's a complete PR nightmare from whichever angle you look at it. TSL looks like it's hemorrhaging into nonexistence, EG looks like sleazy bastards, and Puma's apparently being criticized by the Korean netizens for his decision to pack up and leave.
Jesus Christ. When I first read the thread yesterday, I was furious at EG's "theft," but having gotten both sides to the story (I think), it all just looks very unfortunate. Once again, best of luck to TSL, as well as EG and Puma. I'm interested to see how this will fall out in Korea and the international scene.
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:
Intel, Steel Series, Monster Energy, Kingston HyperX, In Win development Inc, 6 pool gaming, BigFoot Networks, Split Reason Clothing, Inferno Online, G7 Teams, NFO Servers, Ventrilo.net
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
I can give you plenty of real-life examples of Koreans renegging on contracts, going back on their word, siphoning money out of workers' pensions, tax evasion, etc. Comments like the above are ignorant. Public disgrace is taken rather seriously, but that doesn't matter if you don't get caught.
Puma had no contract so he was free to make his own decision. Did they even think to offer him one the minute he got off a plane after winning NASL??
Yes, every human being and every culture is the same.
Don't be silly. If you don't have a contract, you don't have any claim. It's a bit offensive to have someone claim "honor" is more important in Asian culture than Western culture. My point is I think that's an invalid argument in this case. I think it's a great move by Puma and I look forward to seeing him play more in America.
By no means is it offensive, it is in fact true. If you put everything on a whiteboard then it's completely fair and legal. I agree on this point. By no means did AG do anything illegal. However the means he took to aquire a player, while in the western world, is perfectly fine and acceptable, but in Korea is extremely disrespectful. The coach treats his players as his own children, he feeds them, gives them a place to stay, and tries to do his utmost to assist them. When Clide and Sangho both feel indebted enough to give back their stipends/salary to help the team, you know how strong the bond is.
I can guarantee you AG does not share the same bond with his players, he may meet them several times a month, review salaries and performance, maybe drop by once in a while to watch practice, but the western system doesn't allow for such loyalties to form.
Uh, "the western system doesn't allow for such loyalties to form" isn't offensive?
Here's an example that might make this easier for you to understand. Many Koreans live with their parents until they get married. I have Korean friends who are in their 30s living with their parents. In Korea this is normal. In America, if you still live with your parents when you are in your 30s it is frowned upon. It implies you aren't independent. This is a cultural difference.
Your post is not about cultural differences. I can give you concrete examples of Korean bosses screwing over their employees in every way imaginable. I can give you concrete examples of American bosses screwing over their employees in every way imaginable.
I think you are confusing team atmosphere with cultural differences. Maybe Coach Lee is a super-fantastic great loving father figure who would go to the ends of the earth to raise and nurture his players, and will buy them all puppies when they win a tournament. That's awesome, and I commend that. Maybe AG is a money-grubbing jerk who stares at himself in the mirror all day and can't wait to go kick a few innocent puppies after work. That's awful, and I don't commend that.
Just please don't play the culture card. It makes no sense in this case.
Wow Clide and Sangho earned a lot of respect from me. What they did is noble. I also don't blame Puma for expressing interesting elsewhere and pursuing money for his endeavors (think about all the time and effort they put into something that gives them somewhat low financial returns).
However, after watching Weapon of Choice I really lost a lot of respect for EG. AG danced around the questions with eloquent wording and went on tangents. When it came to the root of the problem (picking up a player in a shady/backhanded way that is disrespectful) he thought EG did no wrong. EG felt no remorse for their actions, thought they did no wrong, even attacked Milkis for translating an article, made a lot of absurd arguments, and in the end AG said that EG will be posting official statements (rather late) and apologies but with no sincerity. Essentially AG said that EG will be apologizing to the community to appease it but they are coming in with crocodile tears because they didn't find their conduct to be wrong.
Not to mention AG did a lot of cheeky backhanded insults towards Milkis whenever he gave legitimate points on the subject. He said things similar to: "This isn't a loaded question but..." "I am not accusing you of anything but you should have come to EG before...." "There needs to be more journalistic credibility on Team Liquid ... I feel that you are doing more than just translating."
The entire time EG made it seem like they were victimized by a poor handling of the situation. They found it absurd that Koreans and foreigners are offended by them never talking to the TSL coach when trying to acquire Puma. I could go into more detail but you get the general reason why I lost respect for EG. All the other Korean/foreigner acquisitions and deals have gone so well and with great enthusiasm from the community. EG did some unethical means of acquiring Puma especially during a delicate and fragile time for TSL and are being punished for it. Hopefully they change their ways and be more respectful to the Korean community. Try to understand Korean culture and admit to making a mistake. Go TSL!
Man, if I have a pro team, I will prevent this AG guy from getting near my players. He will only brings bad news to the manager of the team. (CS 1.6 now this Puma incident), It explains his styles though. Or as he has said. It is not ethically wrong, it is how we do at EG. Good for you, and your team EG. Hope that model works for you or one day it will bite you in your ass.
This stuff happens a lot in soccer (especially Arsenal). A team approaches the player, even with the contract, the player stop practicing, blah blah blah. Eventually you have to transfer him.
But again, no publicity is bad publicity. Good for EG i guess.
I hope TSL can weather the storm and come out a stronger team, I do feel sad for them, but if you dont safe guard your interests, this is what will happen. It's quite sad to see a previous powerhouse be reduced to this, but here's hoping the find new talent!
Wow, Clide and Sangho seem like really dedicated and loyal guys. The coach also seems quite passionate, and I hope that this turmoil with the sponsors and deserters will make TSL tight knit, focused, and a force to be reckoned with.
On July 22 2011 15:58 thanhbao86 wrote: Man, if I have a pro team, I will prevent this AG guy from getting near my players. He will only brings bad news to the manager of the team. (CS 1.6 now this Puma incident), It explains his styles though. Or as he has said. It is not ethically wrong, it is how we do at EG. Good for you, and your team EG. Hope that model works for you or one day it will bite you in your ass.
This stuff happens a lot in soccer (especially Arsenal). A team approaches the player, even with the contract, the player stop practicing, blah blah blah. Eventually you have to transfer him.
But again, no publicity is bad publicity. Good for EG i guess.
So if Arsenal found a phenom 19 year old striker who was getting room and board from a team in the Woolwich & Eltham Sunday Football Alliance, and had NO contract they would talk to the coach and make sure it is okay for them to talk with the player?? Would that matter one whit??
Is anyone open to the idea that not having Puma on a contract was marginally exploitative??
On July 22 2011 15:54 Imperfect1987 wrote: However, after watching Weapon of Choice I really lost a lot of respect for EG. AG danced around the questions with eloquent wording and went on tangents. When it came to the root of the problem (picking up a player in a shady/backhanded way that is disrespectful) he thought EG did no wrong. EG felt no remorse for their actions, thought they did no wrong, even attacked Milkis for translating an article, made a lot of absurd arguments, and in the end AG said that EG will be posting official statements (rather late) and apologies but with no sincerity. Essentially AG said that EG will be apologizing to the community to appease it but they are coming in with crocodile tears because they didn't find their conduct to be wrong.
This BS is getting ridiculous...
Here are the straight forward facts:
1) Puma was not under contract, and had no salary from TSL. 2) EG handed out several cards in public at NASL, to multiple Koreans. 3) Puma is the only one that had any actual contract talks (unless the others are being all hush-hush), meaning he is the only one that went further. 4) Puma and EG agreed that Puma would talk to his Coach, in person. 5) Puma talked to his coach, and left TSL without a written contract signed.
All of these have come out in the last few hours, and yet you're still repeating the same old gossip from last night. So which of these is supposed to be shady and backhanded?
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
You're not going to cheer for a player because he took the more financially rewarding route in his career? Who are you to tell him to turn down more money, in a career where your earning potential is already limited.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
What is the Complexity thing?
It was during the counter-strike 1.6. Complexity's entire Counter-Strike roster was basically poached by EG without any knowledge of Jason Lake
Boom! "...a traitor is a traitor. Alex, you are a traitor. There's no eloquence that can cover factual truth. The knife in our back will not be forgotten, nor ignored. Vultures thrive on the misfortune of others. They never succeed and never redefine evolution." - Jason Lake versus alex garfield
How is it EGs responsibility to approach a team that DOESN'T have a contract with a player?
As far as I'm concerned, Coach Lee is a jackass. And people like him are what's holding eSports up. You didn't feel it was necessary to contract him? Yeah, that's real great. Take advantage of a player considered to be one of the best by his peers in not only SC2 but SC1 as well, and have him represent you for.... food and a spot in the corner to sleep? Fuck you.
Although there is one thing I dislike about the situation on Puma's end. He should have played them off each other to see if he could get a bidding war going.
And for the people thinking international teams "poaching" Koreans will kill the sc2 scene in Korea, who cares? Who's fucking goal is it to make SC2 a one nation game like SC1 was? I want the game to be international. I want there to be a tournament held in Toronto so I can go see it too. I want my friends to come with me thinking I'm a nerd and walk out fans. I don't want to be forced to stay up till 5am to watch the best vs the best. So long as you leave Koreans be, they'll stay in Korea until they see a chance to go abroad for a quick cash-in.
How is it EGs responsibility to approach a team that DOESN'T have a contract with a player?
As far as I'm concerned, Coach Lee is a jackass. And people like him are what's holding eSports up. You didn't feel it was necessary to contract him? Yeah, that's real great. Take advantage of a player considered to be one of the best by his peers in not only SC2 but SC1 as well, and have him represent you for.... food and a spot in the corner to sleep? Fuck you.
Although there is one thing I dislike about the situation on Puma's end. He should have played them off each other to see if he could get a bidding war going.
And for the people thinking international teams "poaching" Koreans will kill the sc2 scene in Korea, who cares? Who's fucking goal is it to make SC2 a one nation game like SC1 was? I want the game to be international. I want there to be a tournament held in Toronto so I can go see it too. I want my friends to come with me thinking I'm a nerd and walk out fans. I don't want to be forced to stay up till 5am to watch the best vs the best. So long as you leave Koreans be, they'll stay in Korea until they see a chance to go abroad for a quick cash-in.
I really think that you should think carefully before you post or say anything. Reported
You're not going to cheer for a player because he took the more financially rewarding route in his career? Who are you to tell him to turn down more money, in a career where your earning potential is already limited.
If this annoys you, never EVER watch real sports.
In sports like hockey there's something they call a restricted free agent. This is to protect their young talent that they spent their time to develop. Other teams can offer contracts this player but they have to give up compensation if they do sign, but most general managers do not do this out of respect and is usually just bad business. If anything, EG could have just done something like OGS has done with TL and SK
Why is TSL is expecting EG to live up to some unwritten standard for contacting players? There was no contract involved, so EG, or Puma for that matter, did nothing wrong. This is a business not a bunch of unorganized clans that play each other every friday night. TSL and Coach Lee need to figure that out and move on.
How is it EGs responsibility to approach a team that DOESN'T have a contract with a player?
As far as I'm concerned, Coach Lee is a jackass. And people like him are what's holding eSports up. You didn't feel it was necessary to contract him? Yeah, that's real great. Take advantage of a player considered to be one of the best by his peers in not only SC2 but SC1 as well, and have him represent you for.... food and a spot in the corner to sleep? Fuck you.
Although there is one thing I dislike about the situation on Puma's end. He should have played them off each other to see if he could get a bidding war going.
And for the people thinking international teams "poaching" Koreans will kill the sc2 scene in Korea, who cares? Who's fucking goal is it to make SC2 a one nation game like SC1 was? I want the game to be international. I want there to be a tournament held in Toronto so I can go see it too. I want my friends to come with me thinking I'm a nerd and walk out fans. I don't want to be forced to stay up till 5am to watch the best vs the best. So long as you leave Koreans be, they'll stay in Korea until they see a chance to go abroad for a quick cash-in.
lol you act like putting a roof over his head and feeding him isn't compensation for a player who was completely unproven in an sc2 tournament setting until two weeks ago. If you told me you had this really great player named destiny and all the TL fanboys think highly of him so I should put a roof over his head and pay for all of his meals id tell you to go fuck yourself. These people play video games for a living and a handful of us watch them. There's not exactly buckets of money flowing in for all of these teams so dont act surprised when the Intel backed team is rooted against by so many of the 'anti-evil big corporation' crowd.
You kids swear like this is play money thats being dealt with...Puma never even spoke to his team after he bumped the value of his stock up to make him a player worth even putting under contract. You're naive if you think a good business decision for TSL would have been to get a player under contract because other people think hes pretty good or because he has a good ladder ranking (jerk off motion)
I can't believe people want to boycott EG. It would be BM to harass a contracted member of a team with constant offers, but Puma was not under contract. A contract tells your team members that they are solid and wanted. Even if someone is contracted, it is also possible to buy someone out of their contract. This was a decision that Puma made and EG saw an opportunity. They offered him something better than he was getting on his own team. What was he supposed to do? Wait around and maybe he'll make code S? Sit around without a set/stable salary and live off stipends on a team that was making cuts?
It seems like Coach Lee is a good sc2 coach but a very bad business manager. I simply dont understand the hate towards Puma or EG. Puma was a free agent, he can and should talk with every other team thats interested in him.
Yea its sucks for TSL but its there own fault. what kind of manager dont provide contracts to there players? I simply dont understand how can you convince you sponsors that you players wont leave in 2 months?
How is it EGs responsibility to approach a team that DOESN'T have a contract with a player?
As far as I'm concerned, Coach Lee is a jackass. And people like him are what's holding eSports up. You didn't feel it was necessary to contract him? Yeah, that's real great. Take advantage of a player considered to be one of the best by his peers in not only SC2 but SC1 as well, and have him represent you for.... food and a spot in the corner to sleep? Fuck you.
Although there is one thing I dislike about the situation on Puma's end. He should have played them off each other to see if he could get a bidding war going.
And for the people thinking international teams "poaching" Koreans will kill the sc2 scene in Korea, who cares? Who's fucking goal is it to make SC2 a one nation game like SC1 was? I want the game to be international. I want there to be a tournament held in Toronto so I can go see it too. I want my friends to come with me thinking I'm a nerd and walk out fans. I don't want to be forced to stay up till 5am to watch the best vs the best. So long as you leave Koreans be, they'll stay in Korea until they see a chance to go abroad for a quick cash-in.
I really think that you should think carefully before you post or say anything. Reported
You may not like what he said, or how he said it, but IMO his points are good and thought out.
Puma doesn't owe TSL anything! He represented them well, he was not paid. I hold a low opinion of Mr. Lee, from what I've seen, he has not acted as an adult or in the best interest of a 20 year old kid.
There might be a reason Trickster, Fruitdealer and Rain have all left..... Koreans are so "mannered" thought they would never speak ill of any coach.... even if he was a raging jackass..... they're only action would be to leave, which clearly many have.
Respect and honor really are gone it seems. And people actualy defending EG that they were not wrong at all.
It's not about Puma leaving it's on how he leaves, a guy that feeds you and houses you and gives you the opertunity to be a pro gamer deserved a bit more then what he got. Simple thing is Coach Lee would have to let Puma go any way, no contract means Puma is free to go where he pleases. But a correct aproach from EG to Teams TSL would have been the right thing to do and would made for a whole lot less drama.
I wish TSL the best of luck in these hard times, but it seems the core will stay and keep TSL a great team with soon new members.
It's unfortunate TSL Lee feels hard done by and I definitely understand his feelings. I feel though that if PUMA had a good situation with TSL he won't have been so easily tempted to EG. EG did show pretty poor etiquette approaching him and not his team first. Or even at all it would seem. But this isn't major league sport just yet. Someday it will be but when we get there players will also have extensive contracts supported by teams that can support them.
I think this move will benefit everyone except TSL who unfortunately are seemingly falling apart at the moment (reminds me of my old WOW server-first-getting Raid Guild.) PUMA will be able to crush it at foreign tournaments and dramatically increase his profile in the foreign scene and EG will get a world class practice bonjwa. Especially with EG starting their Pro-Gaming House hopefully PUMA's practise regimen won't suffer too greatly and he can remain at the top of his game. Let's hope he won't have any personal issues that plague him (homesickness, language barrier struggles.)
Thank you to the "TL lurker" who translated the invterview.
I liked Coach Lees answers. You really got a sense of how much he cares for his players and the teams success. You also knew he was passionate about what he is doing. I like how he admitted he might have made some bad decisions/mistakes. I also like how he wants to improve everything around the team, both inside and outside of game, and is pushing to promote sc2 to the korean fan base.
Respect for Coach Lee.
I wonder who went after Clide and SangHo though ...
On July 22 2011 16:38 Lysanias wrote: Respect and honor really are gone it seems. And people actualy defending EG that they were not wrong at all.
It's not about Puma leaving it's on how he leaves, a guy that feeds you and houses you and gives you the opertunity to be a pro gamer deserved a bit more then what he got. Simple thing is Coach Lee would have to let Puma go any way, no contract means Puma is free to go where he pleases. But a correct aproach from EG to Teams TSL would have been the right thing to do and would made for a whole lot less drama.
I wish TSL the best of luck in these hard times, but it seems the core will stay and keep TSL a great team with soon new members.
A guy that feeds you and house you but dont pay you?? But you are expected to work for him and his sponsors..
hmm, this remind me of something, ohh yea the age of slaves!!
This whole damn Puma thing has made me very upset with EG. It's turned me into a hell of an anti fan and now I find myself cheering TSL when I didn't care before.
On July 22 2011 16:38 Lysanias wrote: Respect and honor really are gone it seems. And people actualy defending EG that they were not wrong at all.
It's not about Puma leaving it's on how he leaves, a guy that feeds you and houses you and gives you the opertunity to be a pro gamer deserved a bit more then what he got. Simple thing is Coach Lee would have to let Puma go any way, no contract means Puma is free to go where he pleases. But a correct aproach from EG to Teams TSL would have been the right thing to do and would made for a whole lot less drama.
I wish TSL the best of luck in these hard times, but it seems the core will stay and keep TSL a great team with soon new members.
A guy that feeds you and house you but dont pay you?? But you are expected to work for him and his sponsors..
hmm, this remind me of something, ohh yea the age of slaves!!
can't tell if serious
slavery =/= playin games while getting free food and housing
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
You're not going to cheer for a player because he took the more financially rewarding route in his career? Who are you to tell him to turn down more money, in a career where your earning potential is already limited.
If this annoys you, never EVER watch real sports.
I disagree completely. This is actually a great reason to watch "real sports." Because there are plenty of players who defy the norm and do not team hop. These are the players that often have the best fan-player interaction and the largest following within the fans of the teams they play for. Cal Ripken Jr, Tony Gywnn, Derek Jeter, Chipper Jones, Jeff Bagwell (I only follow baseball). These were all all-star players who stuck with their teams through winning and losing etc. These are the players that should be and often are most loved (did you see the ovations that Cal Ripken or Derek Jeter got for their 3000 hit?). Sports do not need to be about money-hungry a-holes. There are plenty of quality professionals who like the money but ALSO love the game.
On July 22 2011 16:38 Lysanias wrote: Respect and honor really are gone it seems. And people actualy defending EG that they were not wrong at all.
It's not about Puma leaving it's on how he leaves, a guy that feeds you and houses you and gives you the opertunity to be a pro gamer deserved a bit more then what he got. Simple thing is Coach Lee would have to let Puma go any way, no contract means Puma is free to go where he pleases. But a correct aproach from EG to Teams TSL would have been the right thing to do and would made for a whole lot less drama.
I wish TSL the best of luck in these hard times, but it seems the core will stay and keep TSL a great team with soon new members.
A guy that feeds you and house you but dont pay you?? But you are expected to work for him and his sponsors..
hmm, this remind me of something, ohh yea the age of slaves!!
can't tell if serious
slavery =/= playin games while getting free food and housing
Im very serious, if this is the way of the korean sc2 scene atm where they put a player in a little cage with 10 others without getting payed while there team owners get the big sponsor money. Then this insident was the best thing that could happend to the korean players.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
You're not going to cheer for a player because he took the more financially rewarding route in his career? Who are you to tell him to turn down more money, in a career where your earning potential is already limited.
If this annoys you, never EVER watch real sports.
I disagree completely. This is actually a great reason to watch "real sports." Because there are plenty of players who defy the norm and do not team hop. These are the players that often have the best fan-player interaction and the largest following within the fans of the teams they play for. Cal Ripken Jr, Tony Gywnn, Derek Jeter, Chipper Jones, Jeff Bagwell (I only follow baseball). These were all all-star players who stuck with their teams through winning and losing etc. These are the players that should be and often are most loved (did you see the ovations that Cal Ripken or Derek Jeter got for their 3000 hit?). Sports do not need to be about money-hungry a-holes. There are plenty of quality professionals who like the money but ALSO love the game.
And those guys were all paid very, very well by their teams. You think they didn't approach other teams or field offers when they could? If so, don't be so naive.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
What is the Complexity thing?
It was during the counter-strike 1.6. Complexity's entire Counter-Strike roster was basically poached by EG without any knowledge of Jason Lake
Yeye, but remember that the players wasn't happy about Jason Lake so the players wanted to leave, Frod did tell in a live interview that ppl didn't know the bad side because you only see the good side about Jason and so on. I don't think Puma was unhappy with his team(or Coach Lee) before leaving so you can't really not compare with that.
Clide and Sangho fighting!!! Clide doesn't turn his back on his team for dirty cash. Whatever happened to team spirit? Working for a greater goal. Starcraft 2 players needs more ambition! TSL despite losing Puma are still a scary team, and I think they will only get better from here.
On July 22 2011 16:28 LittleAtari wrote: I can't believe people want to boycott EG. It would be BM to harass a contracted member of a team with constant offers, but Puma was not under contract. A contract tells your team members that they are solid and wanted. Even if someone is contracted, it is also possible to buy someone out of their contract. This was a decision that Puma made and EG saw an opportunity. They offered him something better than he was getting on his own team. What was he supposed to do? Wait around and maybe he'll make code S? Sit around without a set/stable salary and live off stipends on a team that was making cuts?
A lot of people here are just being unreasonable.
I am not so sure they offered him something better, though. Without a good practice environment he will deteriorate skill-wise rather quickly. If he drops to the level of foreigners, he won't be a contender for major even in (large) foreign events (those have been dominated by players with Korean training).
It's kinda like if an up and coming football player from Europe/South America went to some average MLS club because it paid better at the time. Sure, he'd earn more for a while but he'd have to consider that his early retirement, tbh.
Hmm, sounds to me like Puma and TSL had an oral contract (the consideration supplied by TSL obviously being accommodation and living expenses). Of course, I'm not suggesting that Puma is in breach. What seems to me to have happened is either: 1) EG doing a hostile, but legitimate acquisition of Puma 2) Puma (entirely or partially) of his own accord legitimately, though rudely, terminating his relationship with TSL.
What I'll take from this thread, though, is that Sangho and CLIDE are class acts.
On July 22 2011 16:28 LittleAtari wrote: I can't believe people want to boycott EG. It would be BM to harass a contracted member of a team with constant offers, but Puma was not under contract. A contract tells your team members that they are solid and wanted. Even if someone is contracted, it is also possible to buy someone out of their contract. This was a decision that Puma made and EG saw an opportunity. They offered him something better than he was getting on his own team. What was he supposed to do? Wait around and maybe he'll make code S? Sit around without a set/stable salary and live off stipends on a team that was making cuts?
A lot of people here are just being unreasonable.
I am not so sure they offered him something better, though.
They offered him a salary, a set contract and travel expenses to the major tournaments around the world. Compare that to TSL's offer of food, a bunk-bed and a few GSTL appearances a month.
Everyone shitting all over Alex Garfield and EG and how this is just unheard of in the Korean scene and blah blah blah...
there's another key, very interesting fact in the OP. Both SangHo and Clide "were approached similarly" by other teams.
Now seeing as they weren't at NASL (and in fact I don't recall seeing them in any foreign tournaments), it's unlikely there were approaches by EG (in fact, almost certainly not, since I'm sure it would have been revealed today if this was the case).
This means other teams are also approaching players directly. Regardless of whether you think this is outrageously apocalyptic or just business as usual, this means that what EG did is in no way an AG- or EG-specific issue, so mindlessly raging against them or their sponsors is retarded. In fact, since SangHo and Clide are contracted and salaried, it means EG is not even "the worst offender" at approaching players directly. Sorry to ruin a perfectly good scapegoat.
On July 22 2011 15:58 thanhbao86 wrote: Man, if I have a pro team, I will prevent this AG guy from getting near my players. He will only brings bad news to the manager of the team. (CS 1.6 now this Puma incident), It explains his styles though. Or as he has said. It is not ethically wrong, it is how we do at EG. Good for you, and your team EG. Hope that model works for you or one day it will bite you in your ass.
This stuff happens a lot in soccer (especially Arsenal). A team approaches the player, even with the contract, the player stop practicing, blah blah blah. Eventually you have to transfer him.
But again, no publicity is bad publicity. Good for EG i guess.
So if Arsenal found a phenom 19 year old striker who was getting room and board from a team in the Woolwich & Eltham Sunday Football Alliance, and had NO contract they would talk to the coach and make sure it is okay for them to talk with the player?? Would that matter one whit??
Is anyone open to the idea that not having Puma on a contract was marginally exploitative??
You know in some countries it is illegal to have a contract before 18 right. So yah, it is not illegal but it is the wrong thing to do. For example, ManUtd and Arsenal have stolen players from Spain and Italy all the time in the past, Pique, Macheda and the Fabregas. Don't you think ManUtd and Arsenal should talk to Barca first before stealing their players. Those players Barca had trained them since they were 14 and when they are 17-18 Arsenal and ManUtd come in and take them. Same for this case, Puma was under a moral contract. The right thing to do is to respect that. Its not illegal what EG has done (everyone agrees on this) but it is not the right thing to do because you exploit the laws (soccer example) or the cultural concept (Puma example). So yah please stop with the no contract crap, everyone realizes that. But you cant take it out of the context of Korean SC2 environment. If you say about a case in NA, i have no problem. However, If you come to Korea and do business there (as EG plans to do), you got to respect their culture and the system they are running. Simple as that. You cant use your western culture mindset to apply there, its two different cultures. The fact that AG doing this only makes Korea SC2 more self-contained as they have to protect themselves from incidents like this happen again. AG on the other hand states that Korea should be more open about players transfer. They could be open if everyone approaches it on the respectful manner, but if you just come in and steal one of the best of their players and you expect them to be open. What kind of logic is that. EG did a bad move and instead of publicly admitting it they just give a general apologising and then blame other parties. If EG doesnot understand Korean culture and why Coach Lee upset, they should just not do business there.
On July 22 2011 16:38 Lysanias wrote: Respect and honor really are gone it seems. And people actualy defending EG that they were not wrong at all.
It's not about Puma leaving it's on how he leaves, a guy that feeds you and houses you and gives you the opertunity to be a pro gamer deserved a bit more then what he got. Simple thing is Coach Lee would have to let Puma go any way, no contract means Puma is free to go where he pleases. But a correct aproach from EG to Teams TSL would have been the right thing to do and would made for a whole lot less drama.
I wish TSL the best of luck in these hard times, but it seems the core will stay and keep TSL a great team with soon new members.
A guy that feeds you and house you but dont pay you?? But you are expected to work for him and his sponsors..
hmm, this remind me of something, ohh yea the age of slaves!!
You must be really stupid. You are really stupid. But don't worry you aren't alone. Seen like 2000 post like yours. Like said a million times. Puma was allowed to leave, even more Coach Lee let him go. Coach Lee could have played on Puma his honor and shamed him on staying, he probably didn't. Coach Lee is just upset with the complete lack of respect he got from EG. If EG would have contacted Coach Lee and TSL and asked if they could acquire Puma no drama would have occurred. EG would have had Puma. If EG would have contacted Coach Lee/TSL and promised some sort of minor compensation for training Puma for several months and making him the player he is, then EG would have been praised in Korea and by Coach Lee for their honor. And Puma wouldn't receive all this crap over him.
EG did what EG does best. This is not the first time something very controversial happens and they are involved.
But at least they made all the kids happy that think it is cool and though to be a shark businessman. Opinions that will probably be changed when they start paying taxes and get screwed by these businessman.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
You're not going to cheer for a player because he took the more financially rewarding route in his career? Who are you to tell him to turn down more money, in a career where your earning potential is already limited.
If this annoys you, never EVER watch real sports.
I disagree completely. This is actually a great reason to watch "real sports." Because there are plenty of players who defy the norm and do not team hop. These are the players that often have the best fan-player interaction and the largest following within the fans of the teams they play for. Cal Ripken Jr, Tony Gywnn, Derek Jeter, Chipper Jones, Jeff Bagwell (I only follow baseball). These were all all-star players who stuck with their teams through winning and losing etc. These are the players that should be and often are most loved (did you see the ovations that Cal Ripken or Derek Jeter got for their 3000 hit?). Sports do not need to be about money-hungry a-holes. There are plenty of quality professionals who like the money but ALSO love the game.
And those guys were all paid very, very well by their teams. You think they didn't approach other teams or field offers when they could? If so, don't be so naive.
On July 22 2011 17:00 Paradice wrote: Everyone shitting all over Alex Garfield and EG and how this is just unheard of in the Korean scene and blah blah blah...
there's another key, very interesting fact in the OP. Both SangHo and Clide "were approached similarly" by other teams.
Now seeing as they weren't at NASL (and in fact I don't recall seeing them in any foreign tournaments), it's unlikely there were approaches by EG (in fact, almost certainly not, since I'm sure it would have been revealed today if this was the case).
This means other teams are also approaching players directly. Regardless of whether you think this is outrageously apocalyptic or just business as usual, this means that what EG did is in no way an AG- or EG-specific issue, so mindlessly raging against them or their sponsors is retarded. In fact, since SangHo and Clide are contracted and salaried, it means EG is not even "the worst offender" at approaching players directly. Sorry to ruin a perfectly good scapegoat.
And what makes you think it is not EG, because coach Lee did not say its EG. Who else would reveal that kind of information i suppose if it is not coach Lee, Clide and SangHo. I am sorry but coach Lee is a bigger person that you. Enough said. I am pretty sure small minded person like you would have said EG name if it was EG. Btw, nice work on explaining stuff with your small mind.
On July 22 2011 16:28 LittleAtari wrote: I can't believe people want to boycott EG. It would be BM to harass a contracted member of a team with constant offers, but Puma was not under contract. A contract tells your team members that they are solid and wanted. Even if someone is contracted, it is also possible to buy someone out of their contract. This was a decision that Puma made and EG saw an opportunity. They offered him something better than he was getting on his own team. What was he supposed to do? Wait around and maybe he'll make code S? Sit around without a set/stable salary and live off stipends on a team that was making cuts?
A lot of people here are just being unreasonable.
I am not so sure they offered him something better, though. Without a good practice environment he will deteriorate skill-wise rather quickly. If he drops to the level of foreigners, he won't be a contender for major even in (large) foreign events (those have been dominated by players with Korean training).
It's kinda like if an up and coming football player from Europe/South America went to some average MLS club because it paid better at the time. Sure, he'd earn more for a while but he'd have to consider that his early retirement, tbh.
That's an interesting point, but it's largely irrelevant in the context of this discussion. EGs offer was "better" because it's the one Puma ultimately accepted. Puma never signed anything when he was in the United States, and TSL had a chance to make a counter offer when Puma told his coach what was distracting him. If they couldn't give Puma a stronger offer than EG, then that's that. The fact that they didn't is either indicative of the fact that they either couldn't or didn't want to. If the former, then that's unfortunate, but you have to keep your own best interest in mind. If the latter, then who can blame Puma for choosing to leave?
Anyways, I find it amusing that there are people bashing EG over this. What were they supposed to do, call up TSLs coach and say, "hey, we want to take one of your players. That cool?" EG made Puma an offer, it was up to him whether he wanted to accept or decline. He accepted. Whether his former TSL teammates feel betrayed or not is on PUMAS head, not EGs.
On July 22 2011 14:17 Mazeltov wrote: So hard to decide which team I dislike more EG or FXO. All the blatant player poaching and lackluster results is making it hard to pick a most hated.
ALso Rysecake is right the reason the Koreans are jumping ship is because the money is in the foreign tournaments that they KNOW they can dominate. No foreigners (aside from the ones that practice in Korea) will stand a chance against the Koreans that are going to be taking over the foreign tournaments.
Choya (coach/manager of fou) came to FXOboss and proposed the deal to merge the team. FXO didn't steal people. I think if FXO wanted to steal people they would have just chosen all the top players from every team instead of just merging with the entire team... just for your information
His er, dislike of FXO stems from the "lackluster results". Not the merging of FXO and Fou.
he also said "blatant player poaching." i was just addressing this part. i dont really care for the result FXO brings, as everyone knows they did not go to Korea to win GSTL
Oh poor Coach Lee, he wasn't consulted on acquiring a player he decided not to put under contract. Such a poor man Coach Lee is, such a terrible thing has befallen him. He's no saint here, he made a mistake. Then decided to throw Puma under a bus in Korea with his stupid statement playing the victim card to the big bad foreign teams.
Something is fishy in the TSL house. I've never seen a team lose so many players so quickly. Rain, FD, Trickster and now Puma all gone. This speaks more volumes to me about what is actually going on inside TSL then pretty words.
On July 22 2011 17:00 Paradice wrote: Everyone shitting all over Alex Garfield and EG and how this is just unheard of in the Korean scene and blah blah blah...
there's another key, very interesting fact in the OP. Both SangHo and Clide "were approached similarly" by other teams.
Now seeing as they weren't at NASL (and in fact I don't recall seeing them in any foreign tournaments), it's unlikely there were approaches by EG (in fact, almost certainly not, since I'm sure it would have been revealed today if this was the case).
This means other teams are also approaching players directly. Regardless of whether you think this is outrageously apocalyptic or just business as usual, this means that what EG did is in no way an AG- or EG-specific issue, so mindlessly raging against them or their sponsors is retarded. In fact, since SangHo and Clide are contracted and salaried, it means EG is not even "the worst offender" at approaching players directly. Sorry to ruin a perfectly good scapegoat.
And what makes you think it is not EG, because coach Lee did not say its EG. Who else would reveal that kind of information i suppose if it is not coach Lee, Clide and SangHo. I am sorry but coach Lee is a bigger person that you. Enough said. I am pretty sure small minded person like you would have said EG name if it was EG. Btw, nice work on explaining stuff with your small minded.
Do you see the irony of personally attacking someone by calling them small minded because they don't agree with you?
Yes, if it was EG who made the offers to the other two players, I think Coach Lee would have said so. It would have strengthened his case, and he hasn't held back about EG. If you think otherwise, say why, and please be civil.
On July 22 2011 13:03 Duka08 wrote: CLIIIIIIIDE. Serious increase in respect for those two guys; such gentlemanly veterans. It'd be nice to see TSL continue the bit of success they're brewing atm. Aren't they doing well in GSTL? Even after losing three major players now, I feel like SangHo Clide Revival and Alive surely isn't the worst lineup.
You have to understand, Clide is the man who picked Nestea instead of Huk in the group selection, just to avoid having Jinro and Huk on the same group. Then proceeds to crush the group 2-0.
After that event I'm forever a Clide fan and supporter, not only because he's a good player, but also how fucking nice he is.
Not to try to diminish your liking of Clide, but that's not true. He said it himself on the stage, he was going to pick Nestea all along, he was just joking around with the "soooo Jinro, Huk or Nestea?".
On July 22 2011 17:13 VillageBC wrote: Oh poor Coach Lee, he wasn't consulted on acquiring a player he decided not to put under contract. Such a poor man Coach Lee is, such a terrible thing has befallen him. He's no saint here, he made a mistake. Then decided to throw Puma under a bus in Korea with his stupid statement playing the victim card to the big bad foreign teams.
Something is fishy in the TSL house. I've never seen a team lose so many players so quickly. Rain, FD, Trickster and now Puma all gone. This speaks more volumes to me about what is actually going on inside TSL then pretty words.
Did you even read the interview on why FD, Trickster, and Rain left?
FruitDealer and Tester preferred the low pressure environment, whereas the other team members felt it was best to incorporate a more rigid practice regimen
Rain’s dad lives in New York and his dream has always been to go abroad. It was only after he left the team that he signed with Fnatic, so what happened with Rain is different from Puma’s situation. Part of the reason why Rain left originated from some of the issues that arised once our team entered into a “rebuilding” mode
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
Asian culture places alot of emphasis on respect and honor even in 2011. Interested to see how EG responds
On July 22 2011 12:49 StarStruck wrote: I'm not surprised by the conduct of other teams trying to recruit the Koreans. Looks like Puma wasn't even sure about his decision. It went against his own convictions as well.
I know what you're saying, but I wouldn't go putting words in his mouth. I think he may have seemed indecisive about his decision based on Lee's story because he didn't want to cause any distractions for the team while GSTL was still going on. He knew his decision was bad news for TSL and that it would be personally upsetting to Lee and the rest of the team, so there is no sense in causing drama and distractions that would do nothing but hurt the team.
I agree that I think he didn't like the way he and EG went about it, but with the situation with TSL and the opportunity he has in the foreign scene, I think he felt he deserved to go pursue something he thought would be better for him.
On July 22 2011 15:58 thanhbao86 wrote: Man, if I have a pro team, I will prevent this AG guy from getting near my players. He will only brings bad news to the manager of the team. (CS 1.6 now this Puma incident), It explains his styles though. Or as he has said. It is not ethically wrong, it is how we do at EG. Good for you, and your team EG. Hope that model works for you or one day it will bite you in your ass.
This stuff happens a lot in soccer (especially Arsenal). A team approaches the player, even with the contract, the player stop practicing, blah blah blah. Eventually you have to transfer him.
But again, no publicity is bad publicity. Good for EG i guess.
So if Arsenal found a phenom 19 year old striker who was getting room and board from a team in the Woolwich & Eltham Sunday Football Alliance, and had NO contract they would talk to the coach and make sure it is okay for them to talk with the player?? Would that matter one whit??
Is anyone open to the idea that not having Puma on a contract was marginally exploitative??
You know in some countries it is illegal to have a contract before 18 right. So yah, it is not illegal but it is the wrong thing to do. For example, ManUtd and Arsenal have stolen players from Spain and Italy all the time in the past, Pique, Macheda and the Fabregas. Don't you think ManUtd and Arsenal should talk to Barca first before stealing their players. Those players Barca had trained them since they were 14 and when they are 17-18 Arsenal and ManUtd come in and take them. Same for this case, Puma was under a moral contract. The right thing to do is to respect that. Its not illegal what EG has done (everyone agrees on this) but it is not the right thing to do because you exploit the laws (soccer example) or the cultural concept (Puma example). So yah please stop with the no contract crap, everyone realizes that. But you cant take it out of the context of Korean SC2 environment. If you say about a case in NA, i have no problem. However, If you come to Korea and do business there (as EG plans to do), you got to respect their culture and the system they are running. Simple as that. You cant use your western culture mindset to apply there, its two different cultures. The fact that AG doing this only makes Korea SC2 more self-contained as they have to protect themselves from incidents like this happen again. AG on the other hand states that Korea should be more open about players transfer. They could be open if everyone approaches it on the respectful manner, but if you just come in and steal one of the best of their players and you expect them to be open. What kind of logic is that. EG did a bad move and instead of publicly admitting it they just give a general apologising and then blame other parties. If EG doesnot understand Korean culture and why Coach Lee upset, they should just not do business there.
If you honestly believe that Korean business culture revolves around "moral contracts" I advise you not to pursue a career in business in Korea.
Did people miss the point where PuMa said to EG that the conversation with coach lee had gone well and that he was allowed to leave? Why would EG contact him when, from what they heard, everything was fine? I just dont get it..
What a sad story. Poor Coach Lee. Clide has refound a special place in my heart now though! Really hope you guys can pull it together over the next few months and come out stronger than ever.
On July 22 2011 17:36 aderum wrote: Did people miss the point where PuMa said to EG that the conversation with coach lee had gone well and that he was allowed to leave? Why would EG contact him when, from what the heard, everyting was fine? I just dont get it..
On July 22 2011 17:36 aderum wrote: Did people miss the point where PuMa said to EG that the conversation with coach lee had gone well and that he was allowed to leave? Why would EG contact him when, from what the heard, everyting was fine? I just dont get it..
Wait what? Source please.
It was said in WoC that PuMa told EG that the conversation with the coach had gone well and that he was allowed to leave. And then all of a sudden this interview poped up.
Couch Lee even goes so far as to threaten Puma with community hate, then claims to part as friends just to turn around and start all of this by going public with loaded statements in line with "they take our players!"
I think it is pretty sad to shit all over your former player Puma and another team because your team model does not work and fails motivating players to stay. I get the frustration, but why fight this on the back of a player who might not even get signed after this negative publicity.
On July 22 2011 13:25 FLuE wrote: Whatever unspoken "rules" exist in Korea about how they handle players doesn't have to exist everywhere else in the world. The great thing about eSports is that it doesn't have to be about location or nationality. Players can find ways to play together, practice, travel to events, etc. even if they aren't living in the same country. The teams and coaches in Korea have to understand there is great opportunity outside of Korea right now and it is going to be hard to blame players looking to go after those opportunities.
You are going to see more of this in SC2 because the money for SC2 isn't in Korea. The SC2 scene in Europe and NA is really booming and there is money there especially for the talented but 2nd tier Korean players. Puma can stay in Korea and do OK, or he can join EG and travel the world and be a stud and make money while it is there to be made. Now when I say the money is there it might not always be the big GSL payday, but there are so many more smaller tournaments with more spread prize pools that your chances of coming away with something are much greater.
One thing with eSports, it can be a fickle beast. Games can really decline and potentially die at anytime. Right now SC2 seems to be doing well and there is money being put into it, players who are smart will do all they can to earn it while they can because you never know if that well might dry up. I think it is safe to say we'll enjoy SC2 for a long time with the expansions and all, but that doesn't always mean the money will be there just because the game is. Again, I think SC2 is going to really flourish as an eSport but I don't think it will be in Korea.
I respect that a player like Clide stayed, but it is a decision he might regret. Loyalty is overrated because you are really banking on the other side reciprocating it at some point and that can be risky(it happens in sports all the time, one player remains loyal but gets hurt and then gets cut by the team he was loyal to, etc.)
My last point, from interviews and what I can gather about how Korean players are treated I think this could be a good thing. I think Korean players are often talked about not even as people but borderline indentured servants. They have rigid practice schedules, live in tight quarters, have minimal pay.... and all that and you might never even make it to Code S where you can actually make some money. Puma isn't going through all this just because he feels like it. The offer he got had to be much better than his current situation because if it was just marginally better he probably stays. Now this isn't all the teams and I know some players are very comfortable but you hear in the interview they have players on TSL not even on a salary but a stipend? Seriously, you are surprised that players are leaving your team when he admits they are barely holding on to their sponsors, having money problems? Sounds to me like Puma was smart here and saw what was coming and made sure to take care of himself before this thing folded.
QFT. I'm not entirely sure speaking with the coach could have been the best thing to do, either. He is not a bad person, but if you can't pay your players then you should not make them sign contracts... because that forces them into a very difficult choice. It would be difficult to refuse signing a contract, because they must have a major shift in life style (risk losing good practice, find new living quarters, potentially lose close friends). If they sign and don't get payed, they're also screwed (Indentured servantry as you touched on).
Puma did the absolute best thing for himself, and that is truly what matters.
"Clide and SangHo returned the salaries / stipends that they received to provide some additional financial support for the whole team."
"If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns."
"Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. "
Music to my ears~~ down with the Korean scene! Your dominance is coming to an end!
On July 22 2011 18:05 thepuppyassassin wrote: "Clide and SangHo returned the salaries / stipends that they received to provide some additional financial support for the whole team."
"If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns."
"Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. "
Music to my ears~~ down with the Korean scene! Your dominance is coming to an end!
On July 22 2011 16:28 LittleAtari wrote: I can't believe people want to boycott EG. It would be BM to harass a contracted member of a team with constant offers, but Puma was not under contract. A contract tells your team members that they are solid and wanted. Even if someone is contracted, it is also possible to buy someone out of their contract. This was a decision that Puma made and EG saw an opportunity. They offered him something better than he was getting on his own team. What was he supposed to do? Wait around and maybe he'll make code S? Sit around without a set/stable salary and live off stipends on a team that was making cuts?
A lot of people here are just being unreasonable.
I am not so sure they offered him something better, though.
They offered him a salary, a set contract and travel expenses to the major tournaments around the world. Compare that to TSL's offer of food, a bunk-bed and a few GSTL appearances a month.
It seems like a pretty good offer.
How do you know whether his salary doesnt just cover his costs of living (unless he decides to move to the EG house)? I also think TSL would cover travel expenses.
PuMa was a scrub in BW, I do not believe he's some undiscovered talent that shone in SC2. Imo EG won't be able to provide him with proper practice and he'll fade into obscurity.
On July 22 2011 18:05 thepuppyassassin wrote: "Clide and SangHo returned the salaries / stipends that they received to provide some additional financial support for the whole team."
"If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns."
"Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. "
Music to my ears~~ down with the Korean scene! Your dominance is coming to an end!
Stop posting here
#2 without korea all this "esport" thing that is happening right here wouldn't exist, you aware eh?
Starcraft 2 just needs a little bit of time until it's balanced more.. I mean look at the first year or so: how many changes there have been, and still they are continuing to change..... SC2 just isnt balanced yet and thats why so many ppl dont watch it and the fanbase is low - but in time, there'll be more fans and even in korea bw will eventually fully shit to sc2 i think.
Also, im very interested in EG's statement in this
On July 22 2011 18:05 thepuppyassassin wrote: "Clide and SangHo returned the salaries / stipends that they received to provide some additional financial support for the whole team."
"If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns."
"Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. "
Music to my ears~~ down with the Korean scene! Your dominance is coming to an end!
Without the Korean scene the SC2 "esports" would've been a complete joke, another After Hours Gaming League (not dissing AHGL, it's all good, I'm talking about the level of involvement). Koreans strive to be the best. Without them, foreigners wouldn't even have an incentive to really practice.
Wow Clide and Sangho, I think their decision to reimburse TSL with their salary to help the team speaks volumes on that whole trust thing people are getting hung up on. So much respect for both of them.
This was actually a really interesting interview, not just because it goes deeper into the contract situation in Korea, but it also touches upon the struggles of the Korean SC2 game to explode, confirms FD and Tester left because they didn't want to practice hard, and gives a bit more info on Rain's desire to go abroad.
On July 22 2011 12:48 VeryAverage wrote: I know the whole "hurting eSports" thing is overplayed to death, but seriously, this really is.
The best players are in Korea (look how much Huk improved from practicing there). The hardest competition is in Korea. Therefore, the best players should stay in Korea. Yeah, having a foreign scene is cool, but Korea has proven that they will stick with it for years and years, while this foreign scene could be a flash in the pan for all we know.
I hope we don't just start buying up people so we can kill the small and fragile SC2 scene there.
Yet the korean scene barely survives. Why? Because they have bad business sense, it was a foolish decision for one league to own all the rights to SC2 in korea.
I agree with this, judging from the latest talks between kespa and blizzard after the contract is up with gom it looks like kespa may be interested in entering the sc2 scene.
There is no reason to have 1 company provide the only tournament, there should be multiple broadcasted tournaments going on, regardless of popularity there is still a huge talent pool of sc2 players in korea and more than one tournament going on seems more than appropriate.
Regardless of the hate for kespa they did things right with BW fromm a business perspective, and having a kespa like organisation with more leniancy for going to foreign tournaments is what they need in korea IMO. I dont agree with AG at all in saying that if you have an organsation like that that he has to be closed off fromm the rest of the world.
On July 22 2011 16:28 LittleAtari wrote: I can't believe people want to boycott EG. It would be BM to harass a contracted member of a team with constant offers, but Puma was not under contract. A contract tells your team members that they are solid and wanted. Even if someone is contracted, it is also possible to buy someone out of their contract. This was a decision that Puma made and EG saw an opportunity. They offered him something better than he was getting on his own team. What was he supposed to do? Wait around and maybe he'll make code S? Sit around without a set/stable salary and live off stipends on a team that was making cuts?
A lot of people here are just being unreasonable.
I am not so sure they offered him something better, though.
They offered him a salary, a set contract and travel expenses to the major tournaments around the world. Compare that to TSL's offer of food, a bunk-bed and a few GSTL appearances a month.
It seems like a pretty good offer.
How do you know whether his salary doesnt just cover his costs of living (unless he decides to move to the EG house)? I also think TSL would cover travel expenses.
PuMa was a scrub in BW, I do not believe he's some undiscovered talent that shone in SC2. Imo EG won't be able to provide him with proper practice and he'll fade into obscurity.
]
These are exactly my thoughts, in a few months we will be going "puma who"?
Im honestly already over it i was a huge fan for over a week, and now that EG has left a huge decision that could up to a 19 year old that could potentially ruin his bright future instead of contacting the team and doing things right is a huge shame. Obviously puma handeled it poorly but what did EG expect leaving player negotiations (basically) up to an akward 19 year old korean boy.
There is no way EG will beable to provide anything at all similair to TSL practice environment/ coaching for puma in korea.
AG pretty much said puma will be staying in korea and they will be trying to set up a good environment for his improvement, but it sounds like a crock of shit to me. I dont see how they could beyond buying a team house and signing a bunch more korean players.
On July 22 2011 12:48 VeryAverage wrote: I know the whole "hurting eSports" thing is overplayed to death, but seriously, this really is.
The best players are in Korea (look how much Huk improved from practicing there). The hardest competition is in Korea. Therefore, the best players should stay in Korea. Yeah, having a foreign scene is cool, but Korea has proven that they will stick with it for years and years, while this foreign scene could be a flash in the pan for all we know.
I hope we don't just start buying up people so we can kill the small and fragile SC2 scene there.
Yet the korean scene barely survives. Why? Because they have bad business sense, it was a foolish decision for one league to own all the rights to SC2 in korea.
I agree with this, judging from the latest talks between kespa and blizzard after the contract is up with gom it looks like kespa may be interested in entering the sc2 scene.
There is no reason to have 1 company provide the only tournament, there should be multiple broadcasted tournaments going on, regardless of popularity there is still a huge talent pool of sc2 players in korea and more than one tournament going on seems more than appropriate.
Regardless of the hate for kespa they did things right with BW fromm a business perspective, and having a kespa like organisation with more leniancy for going to foreign tournaments is what they need in korea IMO. I dont agree with AG at all in saying that if you have an organsation like that that he has to be closed off fromm the rest of the world.
I agree, though it's not like KeSPA was/is against Korean progamers going abroad. They had plenty of their WC3 progamers compete in non-Korean events, as well as many BW progamers competing in varioud Chinese events. It's just that, besides WCG, there was no significant non-Korean/non-Chinese BW event that actually allowed Korean progamers to participate (because they were so much better and people wanted to have some tournaments that aren't completely dominated by Koreans, which was understandable).
What I get from this interview with Coach Lee: it seems like Coach Lee knew about the Puma's deal with EG after he came back to Korea and felt that Puma already made up his mind so he decided to release him. Puma had already signed with EG since he had no contract with TSL. (Puma = stressed out, not being himself)
What I heard in WoC from the EG manager: it seems like EG contacted Puma personally, Puma is interested in the deal and tells EG that he will talk to Coach Lee himself about the issue. Talks between Coach Lee and Puma accorded before he come back to Korea, EG receive words from Puma that his talk with the coach went very well. Puma is not officially signed with EG yet. (Puma = happy)
Coach Lee stance: EG should have contact him directly, although Puma wasn't officially contracted with TSL, he was still morally contracted with the team (team providing him food, shelter, travel expense, practice partner, etc.), he viewed EG's action as kind of disrespectful. He was disappointed that Puma made such a big decision in a short amount of time [without talking to him first] but respects Puma's decision anyways and releases him. He feels that there need to be a system or organization that protects "foreign teams from stealing players in Korea." (possibly has some power over the players)
EG stance: EG feels that there's no need to contact Coach Lee since Puma wasn't contracted with TSL, if a team wasn't contract with their players and decides to rely on the trust and honor of their players its too bad for them (the team) if their players gets pickup by other (foreign) team since in the Western esport world, all the players were contracted to their teams. Despite all this, Puma and EG hasn't come to an agreement yet. EG feels Korean teams should be more aware of the foreign scene that they should have had contracts with their players in the first place and believes that a self-contained system or model (that restricts and control players) is not the best model for SC2 to grow as a global esport.
Seems to me like there's a miscommunication on both sides and I felt that they should have talk to each other more (privately) before releasing statements. The actual victim is not EG nor TSL but its actual Puma as he will be the one who is mostly affected by this.
The sort of attitude expressed by the TSL coach in this interview, and by Sang-Ho and Clide, is so admirable. I wish there was some way to preserve it but it will become more and more difficult as Esports grows.
On July 22 2011 13:59 ragealot wrote: I feel as though people glossed over the most important part of the interview by praising Clide/Sangho. " If PuMa was placed in Code S, I believe he would not have taken the deal. From the Korean player’s perspective, getting into Code S is hard, and winning the GSL is even harder, thus the door of opportunity is very narrow." Guess what the former two have that Puma doesn't. One worthwhile league is not enough, especially with such a top heavy prize pool.
Especially when you can play in all the foreigner tournaments and crush every single bad player.
You have announced that the team is currently in “rebuilding” mode. I would presume that this event caused some turmoil internally as well. Having been blindsided by the news, we did not know how to react. SangHo and Clide were worried and it came to light that they were also approached similarly in the past.
This seems to read that EG has been trying to poach members of TSL that are under contract too. Am I wrong?
Sangho and Clide man. I've always had mad respect for Sangho in BW, I loved watching his games, he just played very strongly. When the betting scandal hit I was so sad he was implicated (although falsely). It took a real man to give up BW at that time and not just return after being alienated like that. Now with SC2, he's giving up his salary for the benefit of the team. Sangho man, You're a great player and an even better person.
Puma and EG though... Really? Is SC2 really at the point where you will earn enough money from acts like this to compensate for the bad press? I love EG's players, but most certainly dislike the management. (State of the game anyone, like really?). The scene is rapidly growing but its not like progaming suddenly becomes purely about money overnight. Gotta build up the playerbase first imho.
i also really think its a low move to approach the player first and not the team. there are probably other situations in which this occurred but it just seems bad mannered to me. i also think its a good step in to proffesionalization of sc2 to start working with contracts. it's devestating for a team to have players simply walk out on you whenever they please, and it will prevent a lot of teams for establishing a name for themselves. TSL losing their wonderboy like that just might be a fatal blow for them althought i sincerely hope not...
You have announced that the team is currently in “rebuilding” mode. I would presume that this event caused some turmoil internally as well. Having been blindsided by the news, we did not know how to react. SangHo and Clide were worried and it came to light that they were also approached similarly in the past.
This seems to read that EG has been trying to poach members of TSL that are under contract too. Am I wrong?
EG only talked to Koreans who came to NA tournaments in person.
You have announced that the team is currently in “rebuilding” mode. I would presume that this event caused some turmoil internally as well. Having been blindsided by the news, we did not know how to react. SangHo and Clide were worried and it came to light that they were also approached similarly in the past.
This seems to read that EG has been trying to poach members of TSL that are under contract too. Am I wrong?
They weren't under contract at the time. The wording suggests Clide and Sangho were approached even before Puma, and the TSL members just recently drew up contracts after the Puma poaching.
Safe to say EG, or some other team, tried to get Clide and Sangho but they just kept quiet about it.
The fact that some players even paid back parts of their salaries to support the team shows, that honor is still important, at least in some parts of the world. very nice.
You have announced that the team is currently in “rebuilding” mode. I would presume that this event caused some turmoil internally as well. Having been blindsided by the news, we did not know how to react. SangHo and Clide were worried and it came to light that they were also approached similarly in the past.
This seems to read that EG has been trying to poach members of TSL that are under contract too. Am I wrong?
Yes, you're wrong.
All it reads is that foreign teams (non-specific unnamed foreign teams) have approached Clide and SangHo.
If these teams don't realize they're under contract, what's the big deal? They're trying to be the best team they can be. AGarfield said on WoC today his players get contacted a lot, and they tell their managers when it happens. This is a competition-driven business. Teams will do whatever it takes to win, because that's what brings in the limited sponsorship money. They will do what they have to to succeed, and the sooner the Korean teams start realizing this and contracting their players, the better off everyone will be.
i think its a bunch of shit. not respecting him by not talking to him first? why dont u talk to EG instead of going all over twitter about it, and they didnt even sign ur player yet. sure it might not be your responsibility to reach out but 2 wrong dont make a right and going public before even reaching out to EG is just wrong. the guy didnt even know that his own player wasn't signed yet! and he's supposed to be looking out for his player and such a nice coach etc etc as milkis said on WoC, ya man throwing ur player under the bus is real nice.
i think coach lee saw this as an opportunity for publicity for him and his team and just ran with it.
I thought the most pertinent pieces of information in the interview were:
Puma wasn't getting a salary from TSL (only FD, Tester, Clide were). Puma wasn't under contract from TSL, a situation Coach Lee was well aware of. TSL is currently struggling as a team and has recently lost 3 of its top players (FD, Tester, Rain). TSL is currently having a hard time finding sponsors due to poor tournament results.
How anyone could find fault in Puma seeking greener pastures is beyond me! I hold no animus towards TSL, and enjoy watching their players, but its not as if the team's roots go back years and years.
Puma is a professional gamer, which means hes doing this as employment. If I wasn't getting a salary and someone offered me one in my chosen field, I'd certainly accept the offer. I think its hypocritical for Coach Lee to feel sad that another team grabbed Puma when Coach Lee didn't deem Puma good enough to offer him a salary.
On July 22 2011 12:34 GTR wrote: Anything you would like to say to the other teams? I hope that the other teams don’t end up in a similar situation to us; furthermore, I would also like the players to understand some of these implications. It may not be easy to implement, but I hope to see standard agreements to become the norm when it comes to recruiting and having the rights to a player.
I find this part disturbing. Teams should not have rights to a player unless they are willing to give something in return. That means no rights without salaries and player retains complete freedom after a contract ends. Also no open ended contracts.
You can pay someone to work for you or you can command loyalty through personal relationships and a shared vision. But to expect someone to be loyal to an organization and provide almost nothing in return is just unfair.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
As an Asian, I think that culture is major BS. It's always "honor and respect" when the employer asks you to do things like work overtime without pay or not take a pay raise. But then when the employee wants a raise, the employer doesn't care about honor and respect.
What the employer doesn't understand is that honor and respect has to go both ways.
PuMa left because he obviously wasn't treated in a way that he felt was honorable and respectful towards him. I'm sure he is getting a pay upgrade with EG as well as more opportunity to play foreign tournaments.
TSL was artificially handicapping him and the only honorable and respectful thing to do was for PuMa to leave.
If TSL wanted to lock down PuMA then PAY THE MAN. It's like every other sport in the world. If you want to keep an athlete on the team, them pay him extra to sign a contract. Otherwise, tough luck.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
As an Asian, I think that culture is major BS. It's always "honor and respect" when the employer asks you to do things like work overtime without pay or not take a pay raise. But then when the employee wants a raise, the employer doesn't care about honor and respect.
What the employer doesn't understand is that honor and respect has to go both ways.
PuMa left because he obviously wasn't treated in a way that he felt was honorable and respectful towards him. I'm sure he is getting a pay upgrade with EG as well as more opportunity to play foreign tournaments.
TSL was artificially handicapping him and the only honorable and respectful thing to do was for PuMa to leave.
If TSL wanted to lock down PuMA then PAY THE MAN. It's like every other sport in the world. If you want to keep an athlete on the team, them pay him extra to sign a contract. Otherwise, tough luck.
Someone give this guy a medal. My thoughts exactly.
Honour and respect are such easy words to throw around. But when you're working tons of unpaid overtime with nothing in return it borders exploitation. The sad thing is that it's not restricted to the local culture. Japanese/ Koreans/ Chinese who work in large Asian companies within the UK (London especially) basically dont have a life from Monday to Friday (and possible Saturday) no matter what UK legislation says and all that.
I'm glad to see Puma actually make a tough decision and do what he wants to do.
On July 22 2011 18:05 thepuppyassassin wrote: "Clide and SangHo returned the salaries / stipends that they received to provide some additional financial support for the whole team."
"If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns."
"Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. "
Music to my ears~~ down with the Korean scene! Your dominance is coming to an end!
I can only assume some of you weren't around when Esports was still growing. The passion and love for the games were the driving forces back then. There was almost no money or formality. People loved it and pushed it. That is what I get from this TSL ordeal. It's a group of gives doing what they love and trying to make it work. You can go with all you "oh they don't have contracts what morons" thoughts all you want but that isn't how we got here today. That isn't how SC2 became what it is or how CS exploded. Sure the natural evolution is to get professional but it seems obvious the Korean SC2 scene is in the building phase. Don't shit all over it for doing what we have done just because you don't know the hardships of not having a big scene.
On July 22 2011 23:13 Numy wrote: I can only assume some of you weren't around when Esports was still growing. The passion and love for the games were the driving forces back then. There was almost no money or formality. People loved it and pushed it. That is what I get from this TSL ordeal. It's a group of gives doing what they love and trying to make it work. You can go with all you "oh they don't have contracts what morons" thoughts all you want but that isn't how we got here today. That isn't how SC2 became what it is or how CS exploded. Sure the natural evolution is to get professional but it seems obvious the Korean SC2 scene is in the building phase. Don't shit all over it for doing what we have done just because you don't know the hardships of not having a big scene.
Have some heart.
You know you're right. But unfortunately times have changed so much. Amateur clans are almost non-existent, everyone plays for money, there arent any no-money tournaments any more.
Pretty depressing but that is how it is. Players just hop on different teams all the time now. Loyalty doesnt mean much when you get a paycheck after a win, or rather it seems like it's assured that way...
On July 22 2011 18:55 LucyApple wrote: My Interpretation,
What I get from this interview with Coach Lee: it seems like Coach Lee knew about the Puma's deal with EG after he came back to Korea and felt that Puma already made up his mind so he decided to release him. Puma had already signed with EG since he had no contract with TSL. (Puma = stressed out, not being himself)
What I heard in WoC from the EG manager: it seems like EG contacted Puma personally, Puma is interested in the deal and tells EG that he will talk to Coach Lee himself about the issue. Talks between Coach Lee and Puma accorded before he come back to Korea, EG receive words from Puma that his talk with the coach went very well. Puma is not officially signed with EG yet. (Puma = happy)
Coach Lee stance: EG should have contact him directly, although Puma wasn't officially contracted with TSL, he was still morally contracted with the team (team providing him food, shelter, travel expense, practice partner, etc.), he viewed EG's action as kind of disrespectful. He was disappointed that Puma made such a big decision in a short amount of time [without talking to him first] but respects Puma's decision anyways and releases him. He feels that there need to be a system or organization that protects "foreign teams from stealing players in Korea." (possibly has some power over the players)
EG stance: EG feels that there's no need to contact Coach Lee since Puma wasn't contracted with TSL, if a team wasn't contract with their players and decides to rely on the trust and honor of their players its too bad for them (the team) if their players gets pickup by other (foreign) team since in the Western esport world, all the players were contracted to their teams. Despite all this, Puma and EG hasn't come to an agreement yet. EG feels Korean teams should be more aware of the foreign scene that they should have had contracts with their players in the first place and believes that a self-contained system or model (that restricts and control players) is not the best model for SC2 to grow as a global esport.
Seems to me like there's a miscommunication on both sides and I felt that they should have talk to each other more (privately) before releasing statements. The actual victim is not EG nor TSL but its actual Puma as he will be the one who is mostly affected by this.
The funny thing is Alex has no one to blame but himself. This self-contained system you speak of... it's heading there. Without KeSPA involvement might I add. Alex could have saved himself two years to bolster his roster.
I can understand where the Koreans are coming from. I don't think the Korean SC2 pro teams wanted to be governed the same way KeSPA governed them; however, in order to protect their assets and entity policy will have to be more strict. The old structure won't work. What used to be open and voluntarily will become closed-circuit once again. It was only a matter of time.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
As an Asian, I think that culture is major BS. It's always "honor and respect" when the employer asks you to do things like work overtime without pay or not take a pay raise. But then when the employee wants a raise, the employer doesn't care about honor and respect.
What the employer doesn't understand is that honor and respect has to go both ways.
PuMa left because he obviously wasn't treated in a way that he felt was honorable and respectful towards him. I'm sure he is getting a pay upgrade with EG as well as more opportunity to play foreign tournaments.
TSL was artificially handicapping him and the only honorable and respectful thing to do was for PuMa to leave.
If TSL wanted to lock down PuMA then PAY THE MAN. It's like every other sport in the world. If you want to keep an athlete on the team, them pay him extra to sign a contract. Otherwise, tough luck.
Someone give this guy a medal. My thoughts exactly.
Honour and respect are such easy words to throw around. But when you're working tons of unpaid overtime with nothing in return it borders exploitation. The sad thing is that it's not restricted to the local culture. Japanese/ Koreans/ Chinese who work in large Asian companies within the UK (London especially) basically dont have a life from Monday to Friday (and possible Saturday) no matter what UK legislation says and all that.
I'm glad to see Puma actually make a tough decision and do what he wants to do.
It's not just in the UK or Asia, Asian companies specifically Chinese companies that operate in the US regularly exploit their employees. Long work hours, little or no benefits, low pay, and little if any vacation time. They generally only hire Asian workers because they think that Asians are more willing to put up with these type of work conditions. I worked for a chinese company after college and it makes me want to boycott everything coming out of China. People claiming that Asian cultures put an emphasis on honor and respect obviously never worked for an Asian company.
Clide is such a great player he should have left when he had the chance he could make real money and have a better over all team now he's gonna be stuck on a contract on this dieing team. No offense but really just seems like TSl is grasping at whatever they can to keep some semblence of a team if Clide left they don't really have a team. Really seems like he's just mad because his team is falling apart right infront of him which is a majority his fault.
On July 22 2011 23:13 Numy wrote: I can only assume some of you weren't around when Esports was still growing. The passion and love for the games were the driving forces back then. There was almost no money or formality. People loved it and pushed it. That is what I get from this TSL ordeal. It's a group of gives doing what they love and trying to make it work. You can go with all you "oh they don't have contracts what morons" thoughts all you want but that isn't how we got here today. That isn't how SC2 became what it is or how CS exploded. Sure the natural evolution is to get professional but it seems obvious the Korean SC2 scene is in the building phase. Don't shit all over it for doing what we have done just because you don't know the hardships of not having a big scene.
Have some heart.
You know you're right. But unfortunately times have changed so much. Amateur clans are almost non-existent, everyone plays for money, there arent any no-money tournaments any more.
Pretty depressing but that is how it is. Players just hop on different teams all the time now. Loyalty doesnt mean much when you get a paycheck after a win, or rather it seems like it's assured that way...
Even back then (BW days), this shit happened all the time in the International scene. Then again, we were all amateurs with the exception of a few people like Elky, Leggionaire, etc. With that said, almost every player clan hopped one time or another. There are only a few exceptions. Best example of this would be Mondi. However, once KeSPA established itself in Korea. Player moves and trades were done directly through them. The Korean's are relatively new to this because KeSPA was strict as shit. They rule like an iron fist.
Keep it strong Coach Lee! You guys in TSL seems to have a good team chemistry going on now and players backing YOU up with putting their own money into the team. With the high ambitions and talents you have you will get the results you guys deserve, good luck TSL!
On July 22 2011 23:13 Numy wrote: I can only assume some of you weren't around when Esports was still growing. The passion and love for the games were the driving forces back then. There was almost no money or formality. People loved it and pushed it. That is what I get from this TSL ordeal. It's a group of gives doing what they love and trying to make it work. You can go with all you "oh they don't have contracts what morons" thoughts all you want but that isn't how we got here today. That isn't how SC2 became what it is or how CS exploded. Sure the natural evolution is to get professional but it seems obvious the Korean SC2 scene is in the building phase. Don't shit all over it for doing what we have done just because you don't know the hardships of not having a big scene.
Have some heart.
I have great respect for those who put the future of the scene ahead of their own interests and are willing to give away their time and effort freely.
I have no respect for someone who demands this from someone else.
Glad to see Coach Lee talk after he has calmed down. But reading this, it all looks like Puma was hesitant to comunicate while he was still debating with himself. Then, Lee, despite talking about the backlash, fired up the light. Looks like he cared about Puma, as long as he was on the team, when he was out of the team, to hell with the guy. Definetly dont like that position, and to all of you guys who put the blame on EG and say you hate them, and wont be watching, or boycott the sponsors and whatever. Do it, and next step, do a favor to the scene and stop watching and posting in community sites. EG offers players better conditions so they can keep doing what they like, and not live in missery, and you find it bad. That is complete bullshit. And I see no shady acts in Puma's affair. Just a lack of communication, and a buthurt coach putting shit on his oh so loved ex player, and the team that picked him up to give him a better living conditon.
On July 22 2011 18:55 LucyApple wrote: My Interpretation,
What I get from this interview with Coach Lee: it seems like Coach Lee knew about the Puma's deal with EG after he came back to Korea and felt that Puma already made up his mind so he decided to release him. Puma had already signed with EG since he had no contract with TSL. (Puma = stressed out, not being himself)
What I heard in WoC from the EG manager: it seems like EG contacted Puma personally, Puma is interested in the deal and tells EG that he will talk to Coach Lee himself about the issue. Talks between Coach Lee and Puma accorded before he come back to Korea, EG receive words from Puma that his talk with the coach went very well. Puma is not officially signed with EG yet. (Puma = happy)
Coach Lee stance: EG should have contact him directly, although Puma wasn't officially contracted with TSL, he was still morally contracted with the team (team providing him food, shelter, travel expense, practice partner, etc.), he viewed EG's action as kind of disrespectful. He was disappointed that Puma made such a big decision in a short amount of time [without talking to him first] but respects Puma's decision anyways and releases him. He feels that there need to be a system or organization that protects "foreign teams from stealing players in Korea." (possibly has some power over the players)
EG stance: EG feels that there's no need to contact Coach Lee since Puma wasn't contracted with TSL, if a team wasn't contract with their players and decides to rely on the trust and honor of their players its too bad for them (the team) if their players gets pickup by other (foreign) team since in the Western esport world, all the players were contracted to their teams. Despite all this, Puma and EG hasn't come to an agreement yet. EG feels Korean teams should be more aware of the foreign scene that they should have had contracts with their players in the first place and believes that a self-contained system or model (that restricts and control players) is not the best model for SC2 to grow as a global esport.
Seems to me like there's a miscommunication on both sides and I felt that they should have talk to each other more (privately) before releasing statements. The actual victim is not EG nor TSL but its actual Puma as he will be the one who is mostly affected by this.
The funny thing is Alex has no one to blame but himself. This self-contained system you speak of... it's heading there. Without KeSPA involvement might I add. Alex could have saved himself two years to bolster his roster.
I can understand where the Koreans are coming from. I don't think the Korean SC2 pro teams wanted to be governed the same way KeSPA governed them; however, in order to protect their assets and entity policy will have to be more strict. The old structure won't work. What used to be open and voluntarily will become closed-circuit once again. It was only a matter of time.
Well I wasn't involved in BW, but KeSPA is more of a "we own everything" if I understand correctly? I think SC2 only really needs some kind of FIFA organisation, which all the teams sign a 'We will behave like this' kind of thing with. I mean this kind of poaching I feel should be looked down upon(and thankfully it is), and it's just clear that there need to be some written things about it, rather than just rules of being 'nice/curtious'.
On July 22 2011 13:33 whaty0uwant wrote: Feel bad for coach lee. Puma... what a dick move. At least give a months notice or something.
Puma didn't even sign a contract yet.
Wow so that makes it ok? It's called human decency.
Wow... /facepalm.
Human decency? How about this, PuMa was on a team which was falling apart, barely any money left, barely any sponsors. He gets an offer to join a team that can fly him to any tournaments, give him salary and ontop of that give him everything that TSL was already doing (basically, a place to stay at and food). Is it humanly indecent to refuse such an offer huh? If he would stay on the sinking ship aka TSL chances are that he'd end up without a team and nowhere to go...
Wow, i will certainly support Sangho and Clide from now on. What a class act from them, being loyal to their team/clan (TSL certainly has the clan atmosphere) to the point of giving back money to keep them afloat. It is so impressive, it really remembers you what e-sports was about, when the BW foreign pros could train for months just for a shot on a 300 dollars tournament and be happy because they loved the game. Kudos to Clide, Sangho and Coach Lee. Coach Lee seems to be such a kind man... miles away from Alex -business is business so fuck you- Garfield and the EG management.
Even if Puma had a contract with TSL, it would've still been a dick move by EG to approach him directly, they are lucky that esport is still a young industry with no governing body. At least now Korean Teams will wise up now and actually sign contracts with players, which is a good thing for both parties. This interview confirmed all my previous speculations about the state of SC2 team sponsorships in Korea as well.
Wow, must be a difficult time for TSL, hope they pull through this and continue to spread ESPORTS in Korea.
As for Puma, it wasn't cool what he did, but playing in the US and owning white dudes is, IMHO and in his, a better alternative to attempting to get into Code S for the nth time.
But damn, Clide and Killer giving back their salaries for their team? That is incredible altruism and teamwork and dedication. Artosis is gonna have a lot of people gunning for that Clide's No.1 Fan spot now.
Foreign team going as forign teams go and then signs a player from korea seeing big talent that would add a great addition to his team with already large publicity in america.
Finds out hes not on contract goes lol what newbs I can pay that guy so much money and he'd still be worth it.
Korean people don't understand this. Expect everyone to follow the same rules as before.
Just a clase of cultures and expectations. It'll all blow over soon enough. Its as much TSL's fault as EG's but it still means that EG will regain dominance over NA.
Wow, people are talking about Korean culture as if they're the fucking red indian signing over his land for a handful of beads because he has no idea what a contract is.
Permit me to quote myself from page 205 of that monstrosity of a thread:
On July 22 2011 05:23 bonifaceviii wrote: Guys, I know not a lot of you follow market news but this is happening, like, right now.
As RIM engages in layoffs, weathers investor criticism, and struggles to reassert itself in the mobile industry, the company may be facing something of a brain drain: a senior product manager for RIM’s PlayBook tablet, Ryan Bidan, has jumped ship to Samsung Mobile to service as director of product marketing—at least according to his LInkedIn profile.
The move comes barely a month after RIM’s chief marketing office Brain Wallace left the company for Samsung; that defection, in term, followed only a few months after the departure of Keith Pardy, who had headed up RIM’s BlackBerry marketing efforts. At the time, RIM did not announce a replacement, instead indicating co-CEO Jim Balsillie would be taking on more promotional duties.
The move comes after the lackluster launch of the BlackBerry PlayBook, which has so far failed to meet sales expectations and has generally been greeted with half-hearted reviews that the device simply was not ready for market.
Industry watchers speculate RIM may be in for more high-level defections as the company continues to engage in layoffs. Dissatisfaction within the company seem high; RIM recently had to take the unusual step of publicly responding to an open letter, apparently from a high-level RIM exec, outlining eight steps he or she believed would be critical to turning the company around. The author of the letter claimed to be articulating concerns from a “huge percentage” of RIM’s employee base.
When your company is imploding, other companies will come and make offers to your talent. It's just business.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
As an Asian, I think that culture is major BS. It's always "honor and respect" when the employer asks you to do things like work overtime without pay or not take a pay raise. But then when the employee wants a raise, the employer doesn't care about honor and respect.
What the employer doesn't understand is that honor and respect has to go both ways.
PuMa left because he obviously wasn't treated in a way that he felt was honorable and respectful towards him. I'm sure he is getting a pay upgrade with EG as well as more opportunity to play foreign tournaments.
TSL was artificially handicapping him and the only honorable and respectful thing to do was for PuMa to leave.
If TSL wanted to lock down PuMA then PAY THE MAN. It's like every other sport in the world. If you want to keep an athlete on the team, them pay him extra to sign a contract. Otherwise, tough luck.
Someone give this guy a medal. My thoughts exactly.
Honour and respect are such easy words to throw around. But when you're working tons of unpaid overtime with nothing in return it borders exploitation. The sad thing is that it's not restricted to the local culture. Japanese/ Koreans/ Chinese who work in large Asian companies within the UK (London especially) basically dont have a life from Monday to Friday (and possible Saturday) no matter what UK legislation says and all that.
I'm glad to see Puma actually make a tough decision and do what he wants to do.
It's not just in the UK or Asia, Asian companies specifically Chinese companies that operate in the US regularly exploit their employees. Long work hours, little or no benefits, low pay, and little if any vacation time. They generally only hire Asian workers because they think that Asians are more willing to put up with these type of work conditions. I worked for a chinese company after college and it makes me want to boycott everything coming out of China. People claiming that Asian cultures put an emphasis on honor and respect obviously never worked for an Asian company.
On July 23 2011 01:25 bonifaceviii wrote: Wow, people are talking about Korean culture as if they're the fucking red indian signing over his land for a handful of beads because he has no idea what a contract is.
Permit me to quote myself from page 205 of that monstrosity of a thread:
As RIM engages in layoffs, weathers investor criticism, and struggles to reassert itself in the mobile industry, the company may be facing something of a brain drain: a senior product manager for RIM’s PlayBook tablet, Ryan Bidan, has jumped ship to Samsung Mobile to service as director of product marketing—at least according to his LInkedIn profile.
The move comes barely a month after RIM’s chief marketing office Brain Wallace left the company for Samsung; that defection, in term, followed only a few months after the departure of Keith Pardy, who had headed up RIM’s BlackBerry marketing efforts. At the time, RIM did not announce a replacement, instead indicating co-CEO Jim Balsillie would be taking on more promotional duties.
The move comes after the lackluster launch of the BlackBerry PlayBook, which has so far failed to meet sales expectations and has generally been greeted with half-hearted reviews that the device simply was not ready for market.
Industry watchers speculate RIM may be in for more high-level defections as the company continues to engage in layoffs. Dissatisfaction within the company seem high; RIM recently had to take the unusual step of publicly responding to an open letter, apparently from a high-level RIM exec, outlining eight steps he or she believed would be critical to turning the company around. The author of the letter claimed to be articulating concerns from a “huge percentage” of RIM’s employee base.
When your company is imploding, other companies will come and make offers to your talent. It's just business.
So true.
Korea is business savvy, but Korea is only concerned ABOUT Korea. Not saying it's wrong, but that's the way it is. They take care of home first and if anything comes in that potentially changes it, it turns into this...
A major assault against Apple has come from the Korean press, which promotes the Galaxy S as the "iPhone killer." An article about alleged service problems with the iPhone was headlined "Tasting Apple's bitter fruit." After Jobs suggested that government bureaucracy slowed the release of the iPhone 4 here, one paper ran the headline "Jobs lied, didn't he?"
Industry watchers acknowledge that Samsung, one of the nation's most powerful advertisers, might be behind the stories. "It may be true that they released some misleading news," said Kim Ji-hyun, the author of a book on South Korean telecommunications. "But this kind of marketing did work domestically."
Some bloggers have come to Apple's defense, criticizing the negative press coverage. "In this Republic of Samsung, they are trying to drive the whole battle of smart phones as patriots (Galaxy or Korean-brand phone users) vs. traitors (iPhone users)," one wrote.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
yeah, EG should really burn in hell for allowing players to live of what they do all day, fuck them !
To be fair, PuMa wasn't contracted, so why would EG be obligated to contact TSL? For all their concerned, TSL isn't a team but merely a clan. PuMa was a free agent, no?
What really worries me is the bad state of sc2 in korea... i hope that ogn/kespa etc. pick the game in the near future. Otherwise i don't see a way that this situation is getting better for those teams and players in korea.
On July 23 2011 01:43 Keula wrote: How can people blame EG for this? Puma failed to communicate with his team and left by his own will.
Seriously people have too much time otherwise i see no way how this can create so much drama
I imagine that is the point. For all the mockery of Lee's talk concerning "honor and trust", it's extremely hypocritical for this community to bag on Lee for it and not bag on EG for doing the same thing. EG assumed that Puma would inform Lee as quickly as possible, and in the end (most likely) he would decide to accept EG's offer. Instead he broods for 3 days, makes up his mind, and informs Lee that he is leaving. Why exactly was EG so trusting in Puma's word in the first place? Is Puma famous for his binding verbal agreements?
At the very least they should have said something along the lines of "Inform your coach of this offer by x time or we will directly contact him". Then EG would be in a much better position right now: they could legitimately blame Puma for his hesitation and say they put in the effort to make the deal smooth and agreeable for everyone. Now they came off as stunningly naive for an organization that doesn't mind doing "dirty" business for results. Because of the latter, it can be easily interpreted as stupidity instead of naivete.
On July 23 2011 01:57 Finrod1 wrote: What really worries me is the bad state of sc2 in korea... i hope that ogn/kespa etc. pick the game in the near future. Otherwise i don't see a way that this situation is getting better for those teams and players in korea.
I've always suspected that. Stepping on Kespa's toes... probably wasn't a good idea. Doesn't Kespa pretty much represent the sponsors in Korea? Even rumored to have caused the game getting a mature rating when BW is just as violent. Rumors of GSL not doing that well and are just funded by Blizzard.
As for low fan base, definitely nothing to be done. If TL is any indicator, BW fans are heavily entrenched. Despite admission being free, GSL finals are pretty poorly attended.
So if PUMA isn't under contract. Why does EG need to contact him? He has no obligation to that team.
I get the coaches frustration -talented player leaves - spent time developing - wasn't able to secure funding due to economy/lack of overall sc2 fan success - GSL is nice but unless its code S it doesn't pay the bills.
Even if he was under contract, the fact that Puma would have preferred to be on another team already means that it's better for everybody that he is. TSL still have very strong players and should be able to recover from these recent losses of players regardless.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
have to say I agree, EG has done a lot of bad rep in the past they are really BM in the sc2 community. especially if u rememeber the STOG where tyler and incontrol had it out. Ive really lost a lot for EG. They have great players and I would love to cheer for them.. but I cant
Looking back at TSL's old lineup, it seems a bit crazy that the team wasn't more successful.
Clide, Killer, Trickster, FruitDealer, Rain, PuMa, and Alive.....now more than half of that beastly roster is gone. I hope they survive this and return to prominence soon!
On July 23 2011 02:13 purecarnagge wrote: So if PUMA isn't under contract. Why does EG need to contact him? He has no obligation to that team.
I get the coaches frustration -talented player leaves - spent time developing - wasn't able to secure funding due to economy/lack of overall sc2 fan success - GSL is nice but unless its code S it doesn't pay the bills.
you are ignoring a lot here. just because it wasnt legally binded it doesnt mean there shouldnt be respect given to coach lee. Yes legally there is no obligation but in a tightnit community like ours respect goes a long way. I know a lot of players teams and most importantly fans will not forget this lack of respect very easily
On July 23 2011 02:21 Maenander wrote: Having read the interview I respect Puma even more for sticking to his decision despite all the resistance he faced.
id only respect him if he actually signs with EG still, and not go to another team cause he's scared of all the backlash now.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
have to say I agree, EG has done a lot of bad rep in the past they are really BM in the sc2 community. especially if u rememeber the STOG where tyler and incontrol had it out. Ive really lost a lot for EG. They have great players and I would love to cheer for them.. but I cant
lets be fair, they have one great player, who i dont even know is elite anymore since he apparently doesnt practice as much. the rest of eg, for one reason or another, is pretty average.
idk if this is an opinion shared by others, but i hate the idea of buying up good players. i much rather prefer players that teams train and grow on their own, like huk with liquid.
You have announced that the team is currently in “rebuilding” mode. I would presume that this event caused some turmoil internally as well. Having been blindsided by the news, we did not know how to react. SangHo and Clide were worried and it came to light that they were also approached similarly in the past.
This seems to read that EG has been trying to poach members of TSL that are under contract too. Am I wrong?
Or other teams. Everyone wants good players and the Korea teams might not be able to hold on to them. Its the same in my line of work. Other firms "poach" talent attorneys and paralegals if they think they will help out their firm. If you think we dont have contracts or agreements, you are out of your mind.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
have to say I agree, EG has done a lot of bad rep in the past they are really BM in the sc2 community. especially if u rememeber the STOG where tyler and incontrol had it out. Ive really lost a lot for EG. They have great players and I would love to cheer for them.. but I cant
lets be fair, they have one great player, who i dont even know is elite anymore since he apparently doesnt practice as much. the rest of eg, for one reason or another, is pretty average.
idk if this is an opinion shared by others, but i hate the idea of buying up good players. i much rather prefer players that teams train and grow on their own, like huk with liquid.
Perfectly put. They havnt really grown anyone. Theyve all remained average
On July 23 2011 02:13 purecarnagge wrote: So if PUMA isn't under contract. Why does EG need to contact him? He has no obligation to that team.
I get the coaches frustration -talented player leaves - spent time developing - wasn't able to secure funding due to economy/lack of overall sc2 fan success - GSL is nice but unless its code S it doesn't pay the bills.
you are ignoring a lot here. just because it wasnt legally binded it doesnt mean there shouldnt be respect given to coach lee. Yes legally there is no obligation but in a tightnit community like ours respect goes a long way. I know a lot of players teams and most importantly fans will not forget this lack of respect very easily
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
have to say I agree, EG has done a lot of bad rep in the past they are really BM in the sc2 community. especially if u rememeber the STOG where tyler and incontrol had it out. Ive really lost a lot for EG. They have great players and I would love to cheer for them.. but I cant
lets be fair, they have one great player, who i dont even know is elite anymore since he apparently doesnt practice as much. the rest of eg, for one reason or another, is pretty average.
idk if this is an opinion shared by others, but i hate the idea of buying up good players. i much rather prefer players that teams train and grow on their own, like huk with liquid.
Why do you think they are more willing to pick up talented Korean players instead of raising talented homegrown players? The international scene is woefully underdeveloped in terms of an infrastructure that can reliably cultivate talent. Every month we hear about 2-3 new Korean players who are suddenly destroying everything in their path, and outside of it we have...Naniwa? Minigun?
If any other team would of done this everyone would be "oh ye there was probably just misunderstading yeah" but now when it's EG everyone is "motherfu****s I can't believe they didn't contact Lee OMG"
On July 23 2011 02:13 purecarnagge wrote: So if PUMA isn't under contract. Why does EG need to contact him? He has no obligation to that team.
I get the coaches frustration -talented player leaves - spent time developing - wasn't able to secure funding due to economy/lack of overall sc2 fan success - GSL is nice but unless its code S it doesn't pay the bills.
you are ignoring a lot here. just because it wasnt legally binded it doesnt mean there shouldnt be respect given to coach lee. Yes legally there is no obligation but in a tightnit community like ours respect goes a long way. I know a lot of players teams and most importantly fans will not forget this lack of respect very easily
welcome to the world of business
LOL world of business my ass, if you know anything about doing international business, then AG's bullshit about "This is how we do it in the west" is the most retarded statement ever.
It's almost worth a case study in a business class for being an example of how NOT to do international business.
If you want to keep doing business with Koreans, you better fucking respect what they respect. Yes you don't give a shit about
Do you think EG will want to keep doing business in SC2 scene with the Koreans? You bet your ass they would.
TSL is not the only team who don't have contract with their players, that's just how sc2 scene works right now in Korea.
Sure, EG can take advantage of that and burn them once. What about the future? You think Korea teams will want to deal with EG from now on? What kind of impression does your business leave on the Korea teams if you clearly don't give a shit about their hidden rules and respect their values?
We all know how Korea team coaches and players are close. Sure, EG stole a risen star, but next time EG's managers won't even have a CHANCE of getting close to these players Korean teams send out.
You don't think they wouldn't learn from their mistakes, would you?
What's with these people acting like they know about how internation business works?
This is not a one time deal, grab your cash and run the fuck away. If you are in the Sc2 business, you are in a business that have to deal with Koreans.
Do Koreas think this is shady? Of course they do.
Does EG think this is shady? Maybe not.
Does EG want to do more business with Koreans? Of course they do, where else would they steal more players.
Do you think Korean teams would think twice before doing ANYTHING EG related next time?
Of course, do you think they are retarded or something?
What foreigners or EG thinks about how they do international business doesn't matter ( in fact from the reaction of foreigners, EG's actions are not well recieved either).
You are doing business with Koreans, and you better fucking respect their ethics. Saying "this is how we do things you better get used to it LOLOLOL" will not get your second deal done.
On July 23 2011 02:13 purecarnagge wrote: So if PUMA isn't under contract. Why does EG need to contact him? He has no obligation to that team.
I get the coaches frustration -talented player leaves - spent time developing - wasn't able to secure funding due to economy/lack of overall sc2 fan success - GSL is nice but unless its code S it doesn't pay the bills.
you are ignoring a lot here. just because it wasnt legally binded it doesnt mean there shouldnt be respect given to coach lee. Yes legally there is no obligation but in a tightnit community like ours respect goes a long way. I know a lot of players teams and most importantly fans will not forget this lack of respect very easily
Even if EG contacted coach Lee first, they still would have put the same offer on the table. Puma is his own person, TSL in no way owns him.
It's just like if you get a better job offer, do you expect the company with the offer to contact your boss? Or do you owe your current company anything? No, and you should take the better offer. This is what this situation is, and while it sucks for TSL, ultimately it's better for Puma, and that's what we should be focusing on here.
On July 23 2011 03:08 Mioraka wrote: What's with these people acting like they know about how internation business works?
This is not a one time deal, grab your cash and run the fuck away. If you are in the Sc2 business, you are in a business that have to deal with Koreans.
Do Koreas think this is shady? Of course they do.
Does EG think this is shady? Maybe not.
Does EG want to do more business with Koreans? Of course they do, where else would they steal more players.
Do you think Korean teams would think twice before doing ANYTHING EG related next time?
Of course, do you think they are retarded or something?
What foreigners or EG thinks about how they do international business doesn't matter ( in fact from the reaction of foreigners, EG's actions are not well recieved either).
You are doing business with Koreans, and you better fucking respect their ethics. Saying "this is how we do things you better get used to it LOLOLOL" will not get your second deal done.
I´m quoting this because its the truth.
Many of the armchair businessmen here think that this was a good way to do business but no, its a terrible way to do it. Now Korean teams will have contracts and will be less likely to do business to do.
Business transactions are usually mutually beneficial most of the time, so that kind of thing is done with a lot of respect and compromise. In both West East North and Sout.
On July 23 2011 03:08 Mioraka wrote: What's with these people acting like they know about how internation business works?
This is not a one time deal, grab your cash and run the fuck away. If you are in the Sc2 business, you are in a business that have to deal with Koreans.
Do Koreas think this is shady? Of course they do.
Does EG think this is shady? Maybe not.
Does EG want to do more business with Koreans? Of course they do, where else would they steal more players.
Do you think Korean teams would think twice before doing ANYTHING EG related next time?
Of course, do you think they are retarded or something?
What foreigners or EG thinks about how they do international business doesn't matter ( in fact from the reaction of foreigners, EG's actions are not well recieved either).
You are doing business with Koreans, and you better fucking respect their ethics. Saying "this is how we do things you better get used to it LOLOLOL" will not get your second deal done.
Wow never seen this type of "internet tough guy" before, Mr international businessman.
On July 23 2011 03:08 Mioraka wrote: What's with these people acting like they know about how internation business works?
This is not a one time deal, grab your cash and run the fuck away. If you are in the Sc2 business, you are in a business that have to deal with Koreans.
Do Koreas think this is shady? Of course they do.
Does EG think this is shady? Maybe not.
Does EG want to do more business with Koreans? Of course they do, where else would they steal more players.
Do you think Korean teams would think twice before doing ANYTHING EG related next time?
Of course, do you think they are retarded or something?
What foreigners or EG thinks about how they do international business doesn't matter ( in fact from the reaction of foreigners, EG's actions are not well recieved either).
You are doing business with Koreans, and you better fucking respect their ethics. Saying "this is how we do things you better get used to it LOLOLOL" will not get your second deal done.
Wow never seen this type of "internet tough guy" before, Mr international businessman.
Thanks for contributing to the discuss with your valuable input, tool.
I really don't get this argument that Western teams should do things the Korean way.
The SC2 scene is far more global than BW ever was. The roles have been reversed, the Western teams have the money to pay players and Korean team in general don't atm. If anything the Koreans should be doing thing the western way since thats where the game is really taking off.
What happens if SC2 never blows up huge in Korea but they have set up their own way of doing things, all the money is in the west and western teams want korean players? Why should the guys with all the money and bargaining chips have to conform to the Koreans wishes?
More over, EG approached a player, the player was interested, the player spoke to his team. That seems like a fairly normal and above board way of doing things, they didn't sign him to a contract before he spoke to his coach, they didn't force him to do anything, they simply made an offer. Coach Lee released the information to the public without ever giving EG a chance to talk to him directly.
On July 23 2011 03:08 Mioraka wrote: What's with these people acting like they know about how internation business works?
This is not a one time deal, grab your cash and run the fuck away. If you are in the Sc2 business, you are in a business that have to deal with Koreans.
Do Koreas think this is shady? Of course they do.
Does EG think this is shady? Maybe not.
Does EG want to do more business with Koreans? Of course they do, where else would they steal more players.
Do you think Korean teams would think twice before doing ANYTHING EG related next time?
Of course, do you think they are retarded or something?
What foreigners or EG thinks about how they do international business doesn't matter ( in fact from the reaction of foreigners, EG's actions are not well recieved either).
You are doing business with Koreans, and you better fucking respect their ethics. Saying "this is how we do things you better get used to it LOLOLOL" will not get your second deal done.
Wow never seen this type of "internet tough guy" before, Mr international businessman.
On July 23 2011 03:22 emythrel wrote: I really don't the this argument that Western teams should do things the Korean way.
The SC2 scene is far more global than BW ever was. The roles have been reversed, the Western teams have the money to pay players and Korean team in general don't atm. If anything the Koreans should be doing thing the western way since thats where the game is really taking off.
What happens if SC2 never blows up huge in Korea but they have set up their own way of doing things, all the money is in the west and western teams want korean players? Why should the guys with all the money and bargaining chips have to conform to the Koreans wishes?
More over, EG approached a player, the player was interested, the player spoke to his team. That seems like a fairly normal and above board way of doing things, they didn't sign him to a contract before he spoke to his coach, they didn't force him to do anything, they simply made an offer. Coach Lee released the information to the public without ever giving EG a chance to talk to him directly.
Yeah it's far more global.
Yet you still need Korean players to participate, no?
Korea still has the highest quantity of good players, no?
You still want to do business with Koreans, no?
If you want to do business with them, you better respect their values, no?
Besides, it's not like this is some Korea BS that no one from outside respects and understands, sure. Maybe that's some non sense we should change.
But seeing how the entire Korean community + half of the TL thinks EG's deal is shady, I doubt EG is clapping and cheering for a good decision they have made right now.
Besides, can you stop saying how Coach Lee gave EG no chance to talk to him? EG had 10 days, but no, they decided to leave it up to a 19 years old boy who does nothing but play starcraft for his teenage years to talk to his Coach about how he's leaving the team as soon as he blew up.
On July 23 2011 03:08 Mioraka wrote: What's with these people acting like they know about how internation business works?
This is not a one time deal, grab your cash and run the fuck away. If you are in the Sc2 business, you are in a business that have to deal with Koreans.
Do Koreas think this is shady? Of course they do.
Does EG think this is shady? Maybe not.
Does EG want to do more business with Koreans? Of course they do, where else would they steal more players.
Do you think Korean teams would think twice before doing ANYTHING EG related next time?
Of course, do you think they are retarded or something?
What foreigners or EG thinks about how they do international business doesn't matter ( in fact from the reaction of foreigners, EG's actions are not well recieved either).
You are doing business with Koreans, and you better fucking respect their ethics. Saying "this is how we do things you better get used to it LOLOLOL" will not get your second deal done.
Wow never seen this type of "internet tough guy" before, Mr international businessman.
But he is right, if anything the internet ¨though guys¨ are the ones trying to sound hardass by saying that that is the way business are made, which is not really true most of the time.
If you don´t agree at least put some effort in making a point instead of calling somebody with valid points ¨internet though guys¨
On July 23 2011 03:22 emythrel wrote: I really don't get this argument that Western teams should do things the Korean way.
The SC2 scene is far more global than BW ever was. The roles have been reversed, the Western teams have the money to pay players and Korean team in general don't atm. If anything the Koreans should be doing thing the western way since thats where the game is really taking off.
What happens if SC2 never blows up huge in Korea but they have set up their own way of doing things, all the money is in the west and western teams want korean players? Why should the guys with all the money and bargaining chips have to conform to the Koreans wishes?
More over, EG approached a player, the player was interested, the player spoke to his team. That seems like a fairly normal and above board way of doing things, they didn't sign him to a contract before he spoke to his coach, they didn't force him to do anything, they simply made an offer. Coach Lee released the information to the public without ever giving EG a chance to talk to him directly.
First of all, it's not "the Western teams." It's AMERICAN teams. European businesses are not as lassaiz-faire with business as Americans are (take a look at their socialist policies). So I can just turn your question on you: I really don't get this argument that Korean teams should do things the American way.
EG had ample opportunity to talk to Lee directly. That they didn't betrays a lack of common courtesy. Even if eSports doesn't yet have a governing body or worldwide contracts, we should still act like teams and players are connected. Pretending any otherwise is utterly unintuitive and disingenuous, and I suspect everyone arguing for EG knows that. Dressing it up as "good business sense" doesn't negate the coldness of their action.
On July 23 2011 03:27 Mioraka wrote: Yeah it's far more global.
Yet you still need Korean players to participate, no?
Korea still has the highest quantity of good players, no?
You still want to do business with Koreans, no?
If you want to do business with them, you better respect their values, no?
Besides, it's not like this is some Korea BS that no one from outside respects and understands, sure. Maybe that's some non sense we should change.
But seeing how the entire Korean community + half of the TL thinks EG's deal is shady, I doubt EG is clapping and cheering for a good decision they have made right now.
Besides, can you stop saying how Coach Lee gave EG no chance to talk to him? EG had 10 days, but no, they decided to leave it up to a 19 years old boy who does nothing but play starcraft for his teenage years to talk to his Coach about how he's leaving the team as soon as he blew up.
Good decision right there.
It is far more global, why would the rest of the WORLD not want to intermingle with Korea. Makes sense, no?
Korea has some good players, but its not like the SC2 scene is equivalent to their BW scene. They don't have super duper world beating talent that's lightyears ahead of the rest of the world. They have some great players, no question, why not throw them in the mix with the rest of the players out there, no?
Korea only wants to do business with Korea, therefore I don't really want to do business with Korea but I need to find some way into Korea because thats what the sport needs to grow, no?
Korea wants the "west" to value their beliefs, when completely ignoring ours and calling it foul play? It's two different cultures. EG was wrong in not doing the "respectable" thing even if they didn't have to, so TSL was wrong in just assuming the rest of the world is going to comply to what they want, no?
EG probably could care less about whether or not JoeNobody on TL hates them and never ever ever buys a Razer mouse again. Especially once this blows over and PuMa continues to bring EG recognition while we haven't even seen the potential of mingling him with the rest of their team could turn into, no?
On July 23 2011 03:22 emythrel wrote: I really don't the this argument that Western teams should do things the Korean way.
The SC2 scene is far more global than BW ever was. The roles have been reversed, the Western teams have the money to pay players and Korean team in general don't atm. If anything the Koreans should be doing thing the western way since thats where the game is really taking off.
What happens if SC2 never blows up huge in Korea but they have set up their own way of doing things, all the money is in the west and western teams want korean players? Why should the guys with all the money and bargaining chips have to conform to the Koreans wishes?
More over, EG approached a player, the player was interested, the player spoke to his team. That seems like a fairly normal and above board way of doing things, they didn't sign him to a contract before he spoke to his coach, they didn't force him to do anything, they simply made an offer. Coach Lee released the information to the public without ever giving EG a chance to talk to him directly.
Yeah it's far more global.
Yet you still need Korean players to participate, no?
Korea still has the highest quantity of good players, no?
You still want to do business with Koreans, no?
If you want to do business with them, you better respect their values, no?
Besides, it's not like this is some Korea BS that no one from outside respects and understands, sure. Maybe that's some non sense we should change.
But seeing how the entire Korean community + half of the TL thinks EG's deal is shady, I doubt EG is clapping and cheering for a good decision they have made right now.
I don't see how EG disrespected anyone. They appraoched Puma to see if he was interested, if he said no then thats the end of the discussion. He said yes, so they said "here is the general idea of the package we can give you" Puma obviously liked it. They said "What is the best way to do this?" Puma said HE would speak to his coach, Puma could have said that EG should talk to coach Lee but he didn't.
Coach Lee could have asked to speak to EG before going public to find out more about the deal and to check it was the right move for Puma, because he seems to have gotten the impression that EG want Puma only for western events when AG said last night they have been putting stuff in place for a "proper" environment for Korean players, that sounds to me like they are working to secure a house and more players in Korea.
I just personally don't see how what EG did is disrespectful but what Coach Lee has done and said isn't. He has said alot of things in an interview which are pure conjecture and he basically slammed Western teams for not conforming to his ideas about respect and honour but not made any attempt to conform to Western ideas of respect and honour. If I ran a team and wanted a player, the first thing I would do would be to gauge interest before I even thought of speaking to his/her team, if they have no interest then what would be the point in speaking to their team?
I'm never going to be convinced that anyone should conform to another person's standards, I have my own ethics and sense of honour, it no doubt differs from everyone else's. The only thing you can do is hold yourself to your own standards and do things legally, if Puma had been under contract then EG would have had no other option but to speak directly to his team, but he wasn't and he decided that speaking to his team himself was the best option. Those conditions satisfied EG's code of ethics
On July 23 2011 03:22 emythrel wrote: I really don't the this argument that Western teams should do things the Korean way.
The SC2 scene is far more global than BW ever was. The roles have been reversed, the Western teams have the money to pay players and Korean team in general don't atm. If anything the Koreans should be doing thing the western way since thats where the game is really taking off.
What happens if SC2 never blows up huge in Korea but they have set up their own way of doing things, all the money is in the west and western teams want korean players? Why should the guys with all the money and bargaining chips have to conform to the Koreans wishes?
More over, EG approached a player, the player was interested, the player spoke to his team. That seems like a fairly normal and above board way of doing things, they didn't sign him to a contract before he spoke to his coach, they didn't force him to do anything, they simply made an offer. Coach Lee released the information to the public without ever giving EG a chance to talk to him directly.
Yeah it's far more global.
Yet you still need Korean players to participate, no?
Korea still has the highest quantity of good players, no?
You still want to do business with Koreans, no?
If you want to do business with them, you better respect their values, no?
Besides, it's not like this is some Korea BS that no one from outside respects and understands, sure. Maybe that's some non sense we should change.
But seeing how the entire Korean community + half of the TL thinks EG's deal is shady, I doubt EG is clapping and cheering for a good decision they have made right now.
Besides, can you stop saying how Coach Lee gave EG no chance to talk to him? EG had 10 days, but no, they decided to leave it up to a 19 years old boy who does nothing but play starcraft for his teenage years to talk to his Coach about how he's leaving the team as soon as he blew up.
Good decision right there.
I agree with everything you've said, and furthermore, in the end, I think it really doesn't matter what we think of EG's actions. Our opinions are inconsequential. What matters is how EG's actions have been perceived by the Koreans, because they're ultimately the ones who - now, I don't want to say "hold all the power," but, to put it into somewhat crass terms, they have the products we want to buy. And, well, they're not happy. We don't know what the fall-out from this will be, but I don't think it's too far a stretch of the imagination to assume that EG is going to have a very tough time setting up a suitable infrastructure in Korea.
Just my two cents there. And, honestly, if there's one thing that can't be denied, it's the fact that EG has piss-poor PR. Spend less money on getting new players, spend more on hiring someone who can actually clean up the shit. Regardless of whether or not you agree with AG's point or the legality/morality/what-have-you of EG's actions, there is something seriously dumb about attacking Milkis on air and blaming him for your bad PR and then thinking your reputation won't be tarnished in the TL community.
Besides, can you stop saying how Coach Lee gave EG no chance to talk to him? EG had 10 days, but no, they decided to leave it up to a 19 years old boy who does nothing but play starcraft for his teenage years to talk to his Coach about how he's leaving the team as soon as he blew up.
Good decision right there.
EG talked to him and everyone went into uproar mode about this code of ethics and hidden ninja code that the Koreans sign in blood the day they are birthed. Come on. He's a 19 year old boy, sure. Korea is comfortable with him deciding to play SC2 professionally in Korea while being given food and board, yet now that EG has any say in it, this 19 year old "boy" now has no idea what to do or how to do it? Everyones saying EG did this under TSLs nose and never gave TSL a chance to talk to Puma. Maybe if all these anti-AG pro-seclusion of Korea zealots stopped saying EG never gave TSL a chance, no one would even say that TSL never gave EG a chance. IN FACT I've been watching this VERY closely since it broke yesterday, and the sentiment that TSl never gave EG a chance to talk to Puma is one that I have scarecely seen expressed. As if he didn't have the time to mull it over. As if TSL didnt have the chance to match the contract that HE HASNT EVEN SIGNED therefore he's still a free agent legitimately. As if Puma didn't talk to anyone and EG broke into Korea, wrapped him up in rope, and snuck him into the cargo section of their super top secret air craft that they use to swindle Korean players.
Come on.
EDIT
Also, alienating yourselves from the rest of the globe when your own SC2 market is bleek and without major renovations will never even come CLOSE to what was produced for BW. Good decision right there.
This interview and most of the responses in this thread fall under the category of mental diarrhea. All parties pursuing their best interest. Puma is his own person and can make his own decisions. Any talking to the coach beforehand is purely a formality and he's just using that as a point to garner sympathy and rally his team so they don't lose any more players.
On July 22 2011 15:03 Sworn wrote: Ya I agree for the most part that what EG did was absolutely HORRIBLE! Imagine if when Idra was staying in korea if one of the teams just came out of nowhere asked him to play for them and didn't even talk to EG. EG would have been furious losing their star player and it's the same for TSL. I really wish EG would issue an apology at least.
1. EG wants a top level Korean player. 2. Top level Koreans come over to NASL finals. 3. EG hands out cards seeing if anyone is interested. 4. Puma is interested and talks to EG staff, when they find out he is open to the idea of working for them, has no contract and no salary they need to compete with they lay out what they are prepared to offer, Puma is interested but he wants to be the one to talk to his coach rather then EG, EG agrees. 5. Puma talks to his coach, coach isn't impressed and thinks that Puma and EG have gone and signed behind his back. (Please note that EG and Puma haven't signed or agreed to anything yet.) 6. Coach feels disrespected and starts this whole thing with his posts. 7. The standard drama fueled shitfest occurs. 8. EG finds out about all of this. 9. Coach clarifies what he meant / what happened as mis-communications start to get cleared up (hell he even throws Puma a goodbye party) 10. EG speaks out on Lo3, saying they didn't do anything wrong and they followed their potential new players wishs. (Again note that EG and Puma still haven't signed anything still.) 11. Dramallamas continue to frolic. 12. EG opens mouth and inserts foot re: what team liquid is for (while I agree partially with them this sure as hell wasn't the time). 13. Even more shit hits the fan as TL defends one of their own. 14. I eat an orange. 15. I write this post.
So where exactly in this chain of events do you think EG crossed the line and needs to apologize?
This was all basically EG doing their best to recruit some new blood, Puma doing his best to find the best option offered to him, TSL not being able to compete due to their lack of cash flow and a tragic misunderstanding between Puma and Coach Lee which started an epic drawn out shitfest.
I actually agree with this post as a solid summary of events. The only issue left is whether the perceived disrespect by EG damages relationships with Korean teams or organizations such that EG is not able to compete in Korean tournaments.
On July 23 2011 03:22 emythrel wrote: I really don't the this argument that Western teams should do things the Korean way.
The SC2 scene is far more global than BW ever was. The roles have been reversed, the Western teams have the money to pay players and Korean team in general don't atm. If anything the Koreans should be doing thing the western way since thats where the game is really taking off.
What happens if SC2 never blows up huge in Korea but they have set up their own way of doing things, all the money is in the west and western teams want korean players? Why should the guys with all the money and bargaining chips have to conform to the Koreans wishes?
More over, EG approached a player, the player was interested, the player spoke to his team. That seems like a fairly normal and above board way of doing things, they didn't sign him to a contract before he spoke to his coach, they didn't force him to do anything, they simply made an offer. Coach Lee released the information to the public without ever giving EG a chance to talk to him directly.
Yeah it's far more global.
Yet you still need Korean players to participate, no?
Korea still has the highest quantity of good players, no?
You still want to do business with Koreans, no?
If you want to do business with them, you better respect their values, no?
Besides, it's not like this is some Korea BS that no one from outside respects and understands, sure. Maybe that's some non sense we should change.
But seeing how the entire Korean community + half of the TL thinks EG's deal is shady, I doubt EG is clapping and cheering for a good decision they have made right now.
I don't see how EG disrespected anyone. They appraoched Puma to see if he was interested, if he said no then thats the end of the discussion. He said yes, so they said "here is the general idea of the package we can give you" Puma obviously liked it. They said "What is the best way to do this?" Puma said HE would speak to his coach, Puma could have said that EG should talk to coach Lee but he didn't.
Coach Lee could have asked to speak to EG before going public to find out more about the deal and to check it was the right move for Puma, because he seems to have gotten the impression that EG want Puma only for western events when AG said last night they have been putting stuff in place for a "proper" environment for Korean players, that sounds to me like they are working to secure a house and more players in Korea.
I just personally don't see how what EG did is disrespectful but what Coach Lee has done and said isn't. He has said alot of things in an interview which are pure conjecture and he basically slammed Western teams for not conforming to his ideas about respect and honour but not made any attempt to conform to Western ideas of respect and honour. If I ran a team and wanted a player, the first thing I would do would be to gauge interest before I even thought of speaking to his/her team, if they have no interest then what would be the point in speaking to their team?
I'm never going to be convinced that anyone should conform to another person's standards, I have my own ethics and sense of honour, it no doubt differs from everyone else's. The only thing you can do is hold yourself to your own standards and do things legally, if Puma had been under contract then EG would have had no other option but to speak directly to his team, but he wasn't and he decided that speaking to his team himself was the best option. Those conditions satisfied EG's code of ethics
The funny thing about respect is not whether you felt you were disrespecting the object, but rather if the object felt like being disrespected.
If a whole community felt they are disrespected, AG's "I'm being rational here, the Korea business model suck balls." Arguement doesn't not hold.
On July 22 2011 15:03 Sworn wrote: Ya I agree for the most part that what EG did was absolutely HORRIBLE! Imagine if when Idra was staying in korea if one of the teams just came out of nowhere asked him to play for them and didn't even talk to EG. EG would have been furious losing their star player and it's the same for TSL. I really wish EG would issue an apology at least.
1. EG wants a top level Korean player. 2. Top level Koreans come over to NASL finals. 3. EG hands out cards seeing if anyone is interested. 4. Puma is interested and talks to EG staff, when they find out he is open to the idea of working for them, has no contract and no salary they need to compete with they lay out what they are prepared to offer, Puma is interested but he wants to be the one to talk to his coach rather then EG, EG agrees. 5. Puma talks to his coach, coach isn't impressed and thinks that Puma and EG have gone and signed behind his back. (Please note that EG and Puma haven't signed or agreed to anything yet.) 6. Coach feels disrespected and starts this whole thing with his posts. 7. The standard drama fueled shitfest occurs. 8. EG finds out about all of this. 9. Coach clarifies what he meant / what happened as mis-communications start to get cleared up (hell he even throws Puma a goodbye party) 10. EG speaks out on Lo3, saying they didn't do anything wrong and they followed their potential new players wishs. (Again note that EG and Puma still haven't signed anything still.) 11. Dramallamas continue to frolic. 12. EG opens mouth and inserts foot re: what team liquid is for (while I agree partially with them this sure as hell wasn't the time). 13. Even more shit hits the fan as TL defends one of their own. 14. I eat an orange. 15. I write this post.
So where exactly in this chain of events do you think EG crossed the line and needs to apologize?
This was all basically EG doing their best to recruit some new blood, Puma doing his best to find the best option offered to him, TSL not being able to compete due to their lack of cash flow and a tragic misunderstanding between Puma and Coach Lee which started an epic drawn out shitfest.
I actually agree with this post as a solid summary of events. The only issue left is whether the perceived disrespect by EG damages relationships with Korean teams or organizations such that EG is not able to compete in Korean tournaments.
There is more then one Korean tournament?
Also I'm pretty sure EG doesn't care if they get slapped with a temp ban from the GSL.
On July 23 2011 03:22 emythrel wrote: I really don't the this argument that Western teams should do things the Korean way.
The SC2 scene is far more global than BW ever was. The roles have been reversed, the Western teams have the money to pay players and Korean team in general don't atm. If anything the Koreans should be doing thing the western way since thats where the game is really taking off.
What happens if SC2 never blows up huge in Korea but they have set up their own way of doing things, all the money is in the west and western teams want korean players? Why should the guys with all the money and bargaining chips have to conform to the Koreans wishes?
More over, EG approached a player, the player was interested, the player spoke to his team. That seems like a fairly normal and above board way of doing things, they didn't sign him to a contract before he spoke to his coach, they didn't force him to do anything, they simply made an offer. Coach Lee released the information to the public without ever giving EG a chance to talk to him directly.
Yeah it's far more global.
Yet you still need Korean players to participate, no?
Korea still has the highest quantity of good players, no?
You still want to do business with Koreans, no?
If you want to do business with them, you better respect their values, no?
Besides, it's not like this is some Korea BS that no one from outside respects and understands, sure. Maybe that's some non sense we should change.
But seeing how the entire Korean community + half of the TL thinks EG's deal is shady, I doubt EG is clapping and cheering for a good decision they have made right now.
I don't see how EG disrespected anyone. They appraoched Puma to see if he was interested, if he said no then thats the end of the discussion. He said yes, so they said "here is the general idea of the package we can give you" Puma obviously liked it. They said "What is the best way to do this?" Puma said HE would speak to his coach, Puma could have said that EG should talk to coach Lee but he didn't.
Coach Lee could have asked to speak to EG before going public to find out more about the deal and to check it was the right move for Puma, because he seems to have gotten the impression that EG want Puma only for western events when AG said last night they have been putting stuff in place for a "proper" environment for Korean players, that sounds to me like they are working to secure a house and more players in Korea.
I just personally don't see how what EG did is disrespectful but what Coach Lee has done and said isn't. He has said alot of things in an interview which are pure conjecture and he basically slammed Western teams for not conforming to his ideas about respect and honour but not made any attempt to conform to Western ideas of respect and honour. If I ran a team and wanted a player, the first thing I would do would be to gauge interest before I even thought of speaking to his/her team, if they have no interest then what would be the point in speaking to their team?
I'm never going to be convinced that anyone should conform to another person's standards, I have my own ethics and sense of honour, it no doubt differs from everyone else's. The only thing you can do is hold yourself to your own standards and do things legally, if Puma had been under contract then EG would have had no other option but to speak directly to his team, but he wasn't and he decided that speaking to his team himself was the best option. Those conditions satisfied EG's code of ethics
The funny thing about respect is not whether you felt you were disrespecting the object, but rather if the object felt like being disrespected.
If a whole community felt they are disrespected, AG's "I'm being rational here, the Korea business model suck balls." Arguement doesn't not hold.
Arguments hold as long as opinions exist. Saying a whole community feels TSL was disrespected is a hyperbole that doesn't exist in reality (redundant but true). Just because the "vast" majority are expressing this opinion, doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean those who simply are not even posting their opinion feel one way or the other.
Though it's pretty common for people who disapprove and feel upset about something to post in regards to it, as opposed to someone who doesn't feel like it's a big deal and agrees with what happened. There is ALWAYS more negative backlash than positive reinforcement.
On July 23 2011 03:38 Grimsong wrote:Korea wants the "west" to value their beliefs, when completely ignoring ours and calling it foul play? It's two different cultures. EG was wrong in not doing the "respectable" thing even if they didn't have to, so TSL was wrong in just assuming the rest of the world is going to comply to what they want, no?
On July 23 2011 03:39 emythrel wrote:I just personally don't see how what EG did is disrespectful but what Coach Lee has done and said isn't. He has said alot of things in an interview which are pure conjecture and he basically slammed Western teams for not conforming to his ideas about respect and honour but not made any attempt to conform to Western ideas of respect and honour. If I ran a team and wanted a player, the first thing I would do would be to gauge interest before I even thought of speaking to his/her team, if they have no interest then what would be the point in speaking to their team?
EG is doing business with TSL. TSL is not doing business with EG. An example would be like, if you want to do a transaction with someone, you should be respectful to the other person. They can refuse your business.
Puma seeking out EG is slightly different. EG may have handed him a card, but they handed every korean a card. Puma sought EG out. There's not much to blame on EG, except maybe they allowed Puma to talk to the coach first.
Q: There are some rumors that there were salary issues with the players. What are your thoughts on this?
A: While I can’t give you the exact amounts, FruitDealer, Tester and Clide received a monthly salary from the team. Besides those three, the other members were on a stipend basis. After the rebuilding phase, Clide and SangHo returned the salaries / stipends that they received to provide some additional financial support for the whole team. We were very thankful for their gesture. Now that I think about it, our team was fairly quick in providing salaries compared to the others. Starcraft 2 was slow to catch on in Korea. On top of that, back then the economy was in a poor state and the sponsorship endowment was quite low. We were even in danger to losing our main team sponsor.
This is just amazing, shows lots of character and dedication to the team, especially when others were jumping ship. Now I'll have to root for those guys
On July 23 2011 03:22 emythrel wrote: I really don't the this argument that Western teams should do things the Korean way.
The SC2 scene is far more global than BW ever was. The roles have been reversed, the Western teams have the money to pay players and Korean team in general don't atm. If anything the Koreans should be doing thing the western way since thats where the game is really taking off.
What happens if SC2 never blows up huge in Korea but they have set up their own way of doing things, all the money is in the west and western teams want korean players? Why should the guys with all the money and bargaining chips have to conform to the Koreans wishes?
More over, EG approached a player, the player was interested, the player spoke to his team. That seems like a fairly normal and above board way of doing things, they didn't sign him to a contract before he spoke to his coach, they didn't force him to do anything, they simply made an offer. Coach Lee released the information to the public without ever giving EG a chance to talk to him directly.
Yeah it's far more global.
Yet you still need Korean players to participate, no?
Korea still has the highest quantity of good players, no?
You still want to do business with Koreans, no?
If you want to do business with them, you better respect their values, no?
Besides, it's not like this is some Korea BS that no one from outside respects and understands, sure. Maybe that's some non sense we should change.
But seeing how the entire Korean community + half of the TL thinks EG's deal is shady, I doubt EG is clapping and cheering for a good decision they have made right now.
I don't see how EG disrespected anyone. They appraoched Puma to see if he was interested, if he said no then thats the end of the discussion. He said yes, so they said "here is the general idea of the package we can give you" Puma obviously liked it. They said "What is the best way to do this?" Puma said HE would speak to his coach, Puma could have said that EG should talk to coach Lee but he didn't.
Coach Lee could have asked to speak to EG before going public to find out more about the deal and to check it was the right move for Puma, because he seems to have gotten the impression that EG want Puma only for western events when AG said last night they have been putting stuff in place for a "proper" environment for Korean players, that sounds to me like they are working to secure a house and more players in Korea.
I just personally don't see how what EG did is disrespectful but what Coach Lee has done and said isn't. He has said alot of things in an interview which are pure conjecture and he basically slammed Western teams for not conforming to his ideas about respect and honour but not made any attempt to conform to Western ideas of respect and honour. If I ran a team and wanted a player, the first thing I would do would be to gauge interest before I even thought of speaking to his/her team, if they have no interest then what would be the point in speaking to their team?
I'm never going to be convinced that anyone should conform to another person's standards, I have my own ethics and sense of honour, it no doubt differs from everyone else's. The only thing you can do is hold yourself to your own standards and do things legally, if Puma had been under contract then EG would have had no other option but to speak directly to his team, but he wasn't and he decided that speaking to his team himself was the best option. Those conditions satisfied EG's code of ethics
The funny thing about respect is not whether you felt you were disrespecting the object, but rather if the object felt like being disrespected.
If a whole community felt they are disrespected, AG's "I'm being rational here, the Korea business model suck balls." Arguement doesn't not hold.
Exactly, the whole point of understanding cultural differences to attempt to compromise modes of behaviour in order to follow your own moral compass while respecting others.
Judging another different cultures reaction against your own beliefs is somewhat pointless as it does nothing to alleviate the potential damage done regardless of intentions.
It doesn't matter whether EG thinks they have done something wrong or if they have not broken their own code of behaviour. They have damaged relations between themselves and Korean fans and teams.
On July 23 2011 02:13 purecarnagge wrote: So if PUMA isn't under contract. Why does EG need to contact him? He has no obligation to that team.
I get the coaches frustration -talented player leaves - spent time developing - wasn't able to secure funding due to economy/lack of overall sc2 fan success - GSL is nice but unless its code S it doesn't pay the bills.
you are ignoring a lot here. just because it wasnt legally binded it doesnt mean there shouldnt be respect given to coach lee. Yes legally there is no obligation but in a tightnit community like ours respect goes a long way. I know a lot of players teams and most importantly fans will not forget this lack of respect very easily
It would be nice, but its not required. The kid wasn't under contract. If I can make money signing you to a contract, and you aren't under contract then there is no need to go to a coach.
Frankly the coach is failing his team. He's lost over half of his primary roster. Reneg'd on salaries for players, asked them to pay $$ back into the team. He's a poor leader and a bad manager. He should be fired at this point. I'm very surprised the sponsors haven't pulled out from him yet.
On July 22 2011 14:09 pdd wrote: I think Koreans really have a dire need to seek foreign sponsorship. I'm not sure, but it seems like a pretty safe bet that a lot of foreign companies will be very willing to sponsor Korean teams, given the amount of foreign exposure the GSL gets.
Also I think Korean TEAMS (not just GOM) need to start reaching out and marketing to the global community in a more direct way. I believe Wolf said that ZeNEX were starting to do this, by getting English translators etc. They can't just hope that the Korean scene embraces them and have to adapt to where the money is.
I agree. GSL reaches out to nearly all the global Starcraft fans, there has to be some good return on investment in that. Hopefully more get on the ball with some nice translators to help out.
GOMTV is moving to the West. Kespa is moving into China.
On July 23 2011 03:38 Grimsong wrote:Korea wants the "west" to value their beliefs, when completely ignoring ours and calling it foul play? It's two different cultures. EG was wrong in not doing the "respectable" thing even if they didn't have to, so TSL was wrong in just assuming the rest of the world is going to comply to what they want, no?
On July 23 2011 03:39 emythrel wrote:I just personally don't see how what EG did is disrespectful but what Coach Lee has done and said isn't. He has said alot of things in an interview which are pure conjecture and he basically slammed Western teams for not conforming to his ideas about respect and honour but not made any attempt to conform to Western ideas of respect and honour. If I ran a team and wanted a player, the first thing I would do would be to gauge interest before I even thought of speaking to his/her team, if they have no interest then what would be the point in speaking to their team?
EG is doing business with TSL. TSL is not doing business with EG. An example would be like, if you want to do a transaction with someone, you should be respectful to the other person. They can refuse your business.
Puma seeking out EG is slightly different. EG may have handed him a card, but they handed every korean a card. Puma sought EG out. There's not much to blame on EG, except maybe they allowed Puma to talk to the coach first.
EG was not doing business with TSL.
TSL was not doing business with EG.
They did business with Puma. If TSL signed Puma to a contract, then they would have done business with TSL.
The only possibility of TSL doing business with EG, was if TSL was informed directly FIRST about signing a FREE AGENT PLAYER who is not CONTRACTUALLY OBLIGATED to TSL. Then THEY would have taken ADVANTAGE of EG and forced them into a BUYOUT situation more likely than not.
I feel so sorry for TSl, they basically found this guy and made him into a starcraft player. Whats even more annoying is the complete lack of respect that EG showed.
Also, that guy who was on Lo3 last night was an asshole, and did not even let Milkis put across his argument, this I feel was what EG did the whole time, with them not even approaching TSL
Why are people saying Coach Lee needs to respect the West's ways when he didn't initiate this whole mess? That argument just doesn't apply. EG wanted Korean talent and was making moves, the onus was on them to act properly. They made an okay effort, on paper, but they went after a player when he was in his most "vulnerable" environment. Overseas, enjoying foreign fame, etc. Those aren't bad things, but a short and busy trip like that hardly seems like the best time to be making huge life decisions without any of your close friends or family nearby, unless he told Alive or MC or something. Given that Coach Lee didn't find out for a while, I doubt he wanted anyone to know, which also shows he was feeling quite guilty about it.
This has given me a new respect for the TSL team and staff, I will definitely be cheering for them for all future events and I hope everything turns out for the best for them.
On July 23 2011 04:06 Grimsong wrote: EG is not doing business with TSL.
TSL was not doing business with EG.
The only possibility of TSL doing business with EG, was if TSL was informed directly FIRST about signing a FREE AGENT PLAYER who is not CONTRACTUALLY OBLIGATED to TSL. Then THEY would have taken ADVANTAGE of EG and forced them into a BUYOUT situation more likely than not.
They did business with Puma. If TSL signed Puma to a contract, then they would have done business with TSL.
Cut and dry.
What I'm referring to is the reason why we should adhere to Korean customs and not the other way around. It's because we want to do business with them. EG and TSL was a bad example mainly because it was Puma that contacted them. Puma that contacted EG Edit: for clarification
The point is that we should respect how Korea works, and not the other way around.
Like I said at the end, EG isn't at fault. The only thing you can argue is that EG allowed Puma to talk to the coach, instead of a representative.
On July 23 2011 03:51 Highwayman wrote: This interview and most of the responses in this thread fall under the category of mental diarrhea. All parties pursuing their best interest. Puma is his own person and can make his own decisions. Any talking to the coach beforehand is purely a formality and he's just using that as a point to garner sympathy and rally his team so they don't lose any more players.
Man up please.
lol wow you're an idiot... I really can't clearify more than that.
That's how things are done in Korea. If someone came to your homeland and didn't follow the norms that you're used to, you would be pissed as well.
I don't see how EG disrespected anyone. They appraoched Puma to see if he was interested, if he said no then thats the end of the discussion. He said yes, so they said "here is the general idea of the package we can give you" Puma obviously liked it. They said "What is the best way to do this?" Puma said HE would speak to his coach, Puma could have said that EG should talk to coach Lee but he didn't.
Coach Lee could have asked to speak to EG before going public to find out more about the deal and to check it was the right move for Puma, because he seems to have gotten the impression that EG want Puma only for western events when AG said last night they have been putting stuff in place for a "proper" environment for Korean players, that sounds to me like they are working to secure a house and more players in Korea.
I just personally don't see how what EG did is disrespectful but what Coach Lee has done and said isn't. He has said alot of things in an interview which are pure conjecture and he basically slammed Western teams for not conforming to his ideas about respect and honour but not made any attempt to conform to Western ideas of respect and honour. If I ran a team and wanted a player, the first thing I would do would be to gauge interest before I even thought of speaking to his/her team, if they have no interest then what would be the point in speaking to their team?
I'm never going to be convinced that anyone should conform to another person's standards, I have my own ethics and sense of honour, it no doubt differs from everyone else's. The only thing you can do is hold yourself to your own standards and do things legally, if Puma had been under contract then EG would have had no other option but to speak directly to his team, but he wasn't and he decided that speaking to his team himself was the best option. Those conditions satisfied EG's code of ethics
This is not about conforming to anything. The problem I have with this deal is that some people just don't understand the idea of mutual respect. Nobody asked about one party to conform to the other. NONE of this controversy would have sparked if only EG approached the management of TSL first, it's just that simple. What EG did was disrespectful in the eyes of the Koreans. If there was an uproar from the Koreans, then what were they getting all riled up about if it wasn't disrespect? There are cultural differences between the West and the East regarding the relationship between workers, co-workers, bosses, etc. and I don't know if you understand that. Whether or not Puma was under a contract is irrelevant to this discussion. This controversy initiated because of the cultural differences.
On July 23 2011 04:06 pStar wrote: I feel so sorry for TSl, they basically found this guy and made him into a starcraft player. Whats even more annoying is the complete lack of respect that EG showed.
Also, that guy who was on Lo3 last night was an asshole, and did not even let Milkis put across his argument, this I feel was what EG did the whole time, with them not even approaching TSL
ESTRO made this player, he was playing there already when Idra was. Puma would have been able to get into any korean team he wanted.
On July 23 2011 04:06 pStar wrote: I feel so sorry for TSl, they basically found this guy and made him into a starcraft player. Whats even more annoying is the complete lack of respect that EG showed.
Also, that guy who was on Lo3 last night was an asshole, and did not even let Milkis put across his argument, this I feel was what EG did the whole time, with them not even approaching TSL
ESTRO made this player, he was playing there already when Idra was. Puma would have been able to get into any korean team he wanted.
Estro made him into a pretty mediocore BW player TSL made him a top level terran SC2 player
I think you severely underestimate the amount of time and effort coaching has in a player's performance
Korean progame coaches arent like american high school football coaches where you just see them for a 2-3 hour daily practice. they live together and its much more of a father/son relationship than some americans seem to think.
No man, Sir Scoots will be Puma's new dad! They'll toss the ball around during the evenings, give each other man-hugs when appropriate, and have serious talks about life and what it means to become a man.
On July 23 2011 04:41 zarepath wrote: No man, Sir Scoots will be Puma's new dad! They'll toss the ball around during the evenings, give each other man-hugs when appropriate, and have serious talks about life and what it means to become a man.
maybe sirscoots should focus on developing some of the players he already has under contract, because they havent been doing so well for such a major organization.
On July 23 2011 04:41 zarepath wrote: No man, Sir Scoots will be Puma's new dad! They'll toss the ball around during the evenings, give each other man-hugs when appropriate, and have serious talks about life and what it means to become a man.
maybe sirscoots should focus on developing some of the players he already has under contract, because they havent been doing so well for such a major organization.
I'm certain that post was sarcasm in regards to people saying Coach Lee is Daddy Puma playing softball with his boys in the summer.
On July 23 2011 04:06 pStar wrote: I feel so sorry for TSl, they basically found this guy and made him into a starcraft player. Whats even more annoying is the complete lack of respect that EG showed.
Also, that guy who was on Lo3 last night was an asshole, and did not even let Milkis put across his argument, this I feel was what EG did the whole time, with them not even approaching TSL
ESTRO made this player, he was playing there already when Idra was. Puma would have been able to get into any korean team he wanted.
Estro made him into a pretty mediocore BW player TSL made him a top level terran SC2 player
I think you severely underestimate the amount of time and effort coaching has in a player's performance
Korean progame coaches arent like american high school football coaches where you just see them for a 2-3 hour daily practice. they live together and its much more of a father/son relationship than some americans seem to think.
If they wanted to treat him like an asset to the team that they made, they should have treated him like that from the start. You can't just hole your players in for a rebuilding stage, sending them nowhere and not expect good players to get offers for money when you give them nothing.
If you want to keep a player, make it worth their time to stay. It's pretty widely agreed that the BW model sucked, there is no point in defending players getting screwed over in SC2 for their work just because that is how it was in BW.
Additionally, this topic is full of "You have to respect their traditions", ect. Why don't they have to respect ours, though? Puma was on US soil, without a contract, and received an offer. Hell, if a player is going overseas to somewhere that the majority of foreign teams are, maybe you should send a team rep with you?
But then again, what good is a TSL rep good for other then saying no and keeping players unpayed for their work. Having your rep be the guy who makes money off you staying with the team is a terrible decision, and is exactly why EG had to handle this the way they did.
On July 23 2011 04:06 pStar wrote: I feel so sorry for TSl, they basically found this guy and made him into a starcraft player. Whats even more annoying is the complete lack of respect that EG showed.
Also, that guy who was on Lo3 last night was an asshole, and did not even let Milkis put across his argument, this I feel was what EG did the whole time, with them not even approaching TSL
ESTRO made this player, he was playing there already when Idra was. Puma would have been able to get into any korean team he wanted.
Estro made him into a pretty mediocore BW player TSL made him a top level terran SC2 player
I think you severely underestimate the amount of time and effort coaching has in a player's performance
Korean progame coaches arent like american high school football coaches where you just see them for a 2-3 hour daily practice. they live together and its much more of a father/son relationship than some americans seem to think.
If they wanted to treat him like an asset to the team that they made, they should have treated him like that from the start. You can't just hole your players in for a rebuilding stage, sending them nowhere and not expect good players to get offers for money when you give them nothing.
If you want to keep a player, make it worth their time to stay. It's pretty widely agreed that the BW model sucked, there is no point in defending players getting screwed over in SC2 for their work just because that is how it was in BW.
Additionally, this topic is full of "You have to respect their traditions", ect. Why don't they have to respect ours, though? Puma was on US soil, without a contract, and received an offer. Hell, if a player is going overseas to somewhere that the majority of foreign teams are, maybe you should send a team rep with you?
But then again, what good is a TSL rep good for other then saying no and keeping players unpayed for their work. Having your rep be the guy who makes money off you staying with the team is a terrible decision, and is exactly why EG had to handle this the way they did.
Grats to Puma for accepting, you deserve it.
nowhere in my post do i argue any of the shit you just responded to now.
On July 23 2011 04:06 pStar wrote: I feel so sorry for TSl, they basically found this guy and made him into a starcraft player. Whats even more annoying is the complete lack of respect that EG showed.
Also, that guy who was on Lo3 last night was an asshole, and did not even let Milkis put across his argument, this I feel was what EG did the whole time, with them not even approaching TSL
ESTRO made this player, he was playing there already when Idra was. Puma would have been able to get into any korean team he wanted.
Estro made him into a pretty mediocore BW player TSL made him a top level terran SC2 player
I think you severely underestimate the amount of time and effort coaching has in a player's performance
Korean progame coaches arent like american high school football coaches where you just see them for a 2-3 hour daily practice. they live together and its much more of a father/son relationship than some americans seem to think.
If they wanted to treat him like an asset to the team that they made, they should have treated him like that from the start. You can't just hole your players in for a rebuilding stage, sending them nowhere and not expect good players to get offers for money when you give them nothing.
If you want to keep a player, make it worth their time to stay. It's pretty widely agreed that the BW model sucked, there is no point in defending players getting screwed over in SC2 for their work just because that is how it was in BW.
Additionally, this topic is full of "You have to respect their traditions", ect. Why don't they have to respect ours, though? Puma was on US soil, without a contract, and received an offer. Hell, if a player is going overseas to somewhere that the majority of foreign teams are, maybe you should send a team rep with you?
But then again, what good is a TSL rep good for other then saying no and keeping players unpayed for their work. Having your rep be the guy who makes money off you staying with the team is a terrible decision, and is exactly why EG had to handle this the way they did.
Grats to Puma for accepting, you deserve it.
nowhere in my post do i argue any of the shit you just responded to now.
You're trying to say they "made him" and put a lot of effort into molding him as a player.
On July 23 2011 04:06 pStar wrote: I feel so sorry for TSl, they basically found this guy and made him into a starcraft player. Whats even more annoying is the complete lack of respect that EG showed.
Also, that guy who was on Lo3 last night was an asshole, and did not even let Milkis put across his argument, this I feel was what EG did the whole time, with them not even approaching TSL
ESTRO made this player, he was playing there already when Idra was. Puma would have been able to get into any korean team he wanted.
Estro made him into a pretty mediocore BW player TSL made him a top level terran SC2 player
I think you severely underestimate the amount of time and effort coaching has in a player's performance
Korean progame coaches arent like american high school football coaches where you just see them for a 2-3 hour daily practice. they live together and its much more of a father/son relationship than some americans seem to think.
Except that being mediocre in BroodWar is a huge achievement.
On July 23 2011 04:06 pStar wrote: I feel so sorry for TSl, they basically found this guy and made him into a starcraft player. Whats even more annoying is the complete lack of respect that EG showed.
Also, that guy who was on Lo3 last night was an asshole, and did not even let Milkis put across his argument, this I feel was what EG did the whole time, with them not even approaching TSL
ESTRO made this player, he was playing there already when Idra was. Puma would have been able to get into any korean team he wanted.
Estro made him into a pretty mediocore BW player TSL made him a top level terran SC2 player
I think you severely underestimate the amount of time and effort coaching has in a player's performance
Korean progame coaches arent like american high school football coaches where you just see them for a 2-3 hour daily practice. they live together and its much more of a father/son relationship than some americans seem to think.
If they wanted to treat him like an asset to the team that they made, they should have treated him like that from the start. You can't just hole your players in for a rebuilding stage, sending them nowhere and not expect good players to get offers for money when you give them nothing.
If you want to keep a player, make it worth their time to stay. It's pretty widely agreed that the BW model sucked, there is no point in defending players getting screwed over in SC2 for their work just because that is how it was in BW.
Additionally, this topic is full of "You have to respect their traditions", ect. Why don't they have to respect ours, though? Puma was on US soil, without a contract, and received an offer. Hell, if a player is going overseas to somewhere that the majority of foreign teams are, maybe you should send a team rep with you?
But then again, what good is a TSL rep good for other then saying no and keeping players unpayed for their work. Having your rep be the guy who makes money off you staying with the team is a terrible decision, and is exactly why EG had to handle this the way they did.
Grats to Puma for accepting, you deserve it.
nowhere in my post do i argue any of the shit you just responded to now.
You're trying to say they "made him" and put a lot of effort into molding him as a player.
First half of my post is responding to that.
It was a joint effort of Puma's hard work and TSL coaching staff that made him the player he is today. you didnt respond to anything i said.
Everyone saying they're thinking less of EG now is kind of silly.
EG is its players, not just some corporate entity. By not supporting them, you're only hurting the players on it. And the players have done nothing wrong.
I for one don't give two shits about what goes on behind the scenes as long as the players are happy and performing well.
On July 23 2011 04:06 pStar wrote: I feel so sorry for TSl, they basically found this guy and made him into a starcraft player. Whats even more annoying is the complete lack of respect that EG showed.
Also, that guy who was on Lo3 last night was an asshole, and did not even let Milkis put across his argument, this I feel was what EG did the whole time, with them not even approaching TSL
ESTRO made this player, he was playing there already when Idra was. Puma would have been able to get into any korean team he wanted.
Estro made him into a pretty mediocore BW player TSL made him a top level terran SC2 player
I think you severely underestimate the amount of time and effort coaching has in a player's performance
Korean progame coaches arent like american high school football coaches where you just see them for a 2-3 hour daily practice. they live together and its much more of a father/son relationship than some americans seem to think.
If they wanted to treat him like an asset to the team that they made, they should have treated him like that from the start. You can't just hole your players in for a rebuilding stage, sending them nowhere and not expect good players to get offers for money when you give them nothing.
If you want to keep a player, make it worth their time to stay. It's pretty widely agreed that the BW model sucked, there is no point in defending players getting screwed over in SC2 for their work just because that is how it was in BW.
Additionally, this topic is full of "You have to respect their traditions", ect. Why don't they have to respect ours, though? Puma was on US soil, without a contract, and received an offer. Hell, if a player is going overseas to somewhere that the majority of foreign teams are, maybe you should send a team rep with you?
But then again, what good is a TSL rep good for other then saying no and keeping players unpayed for their work. Having your rep be the guy who makes money off you staying with the team is a terrible decision, and is exactly why EG had to handle this the way they did.
Grats to Puma for accepting, you deserve it.
nowhere in my post do i argue any of the shit you just responded to now.
You're trying to say they "made him" and put a lot of effort into molding him as a player.
First half of my post is responding to that.
It was a joint effort of Puma's hard work and TSL coaching staff that made him the player he is today. you didnt respond to anything i said.
My post is responding to "they put the effort in, therefore they should keep him" attitude of your post. But you can pretend you didn't imply that all you want.
If PuMa was placed in Code S, I believe he would not have taken the deal. From the Korean player’s perspective, getting into Code S is hard, and winning the GSL is even harder, thus the door of opportunity is very narrow. Experiencing the foreign Starcraft 2 scene, and seeing first-hand the impact it has on a global level probably made him think that his accomplishment in Korea is small compared to what he is capable of doing in the foreign scene
I find this a little bit funny how every Foreigner wants to get to Korea to compete in the GSL and now we have a Korean who wants to leave to pursue something greater. i wonder if other high end players feel the same way.
On July 23 2011 04:06 pStar wrote: I feel so sorry for TSl, they basically found this guy and made him into a starcraft player. Whats even more annoying is the complete lack of respect that EG showed.
Also, that guy who was on Lo3 last night was an asshole, and did not even let Milkis put across his argument, this I feel was what EG did the whole time, with them not even approaching TSL
ESTRO made this player, he was playing there already when Idra was. Puma would have been able to get into any korean team he wanted.
Estro made him into a pretty mediocore BW player TSL made him a top level terran SC2 player
I think you severely underestimate the amount of time and effort coaching has in a player's performance
Korean progame coaches arent like american high school football coaches where you just see them for a 2-3 hour daily practice. they live together and its much more of a father/son relationship than some americans seem to think.
If they wanted to treat him like an asset to the team that they made, they should have treated him like that from the start. You can't just hole your players in for a rebuilding stage, sending them nowhere and not expect good players to get offers for money when you give them nothing.
If you want to keep a player, make it worth their time to stay. It's pretty widely agreed that the BW model sucked, there is no point in defending players getting screwed over in SC2 for their work just because that is how it was in BW.
Additionally, this topic is full of "You have to respect their traditions", ect. Why don't they have to respect ours, though? Puma was on US soil, without a contract, and received an offer. Hell, if a player is going overseas to somewhere that the majority of foreign teams are, maybe you should send a team rep with you?
But then again, what good is a TSL rep good for other then saying no and keeping players unpayed for their work. Having your rep be the guy who makes money off you staying with the team is a terrible decision, and is exactly why EG had to handle this the way they did.
Grats to Puma for accepting, you deserve it.
nowhere in my post do i argue any of the shit you just responded to now.
You're trying to say they "made him" and put a lot of effort into molding him as a player.
First half of my post is responding to that.
It was a joint effort of Puma's hard work and TSL coaching staff that made him the player he is today. you didnt respond to anything i said.
My post is responding to "they put the effort in, therefore they should keep him" attitude of your post. But you can pretend you didn't imply that all you want.
Thats not my attitude at all. Of course Puma can go wherever he wants but to pretend that hes this natural talent who didnt have any helping hands along the way is absurd.
On July 23 2011 04:38 Condor Hero wrote: Estro made him into a pretty mediocore BW player TSL made him a top level terran SC2 player
Mediocre BW pro = top level sc2 pro. You know who else were mediocre BW players? MC and Nestea. I'm sure Puma has improved while at TSL but saying they made him the player he is is ridiculous.
Why do you think this happened? I think foreign teams approach them due to their fan base. Clide has a lot of foreign fans … about 2 to 3 thousand Twitter followers that consists mostly of foreigners. SangHo does as well. It’s a lot of fans considering they haven’t won a major tournament yet. As for PuMa, I believe the offers came in due to his victory at NASL, but am just disappointed that he made such a big decision in such a short time.
This reply was lol worthy :D
Foreign teams approach kor top players because they give you wins in the #1 rated sc2 tournament under your team brand and in return you give them ... food.
Why do you think this happened? I think foreign teams approach them due to their fan base. Clide has a lot of foreign fans … about 2 to 3 thousand Twitter followers that consists mostly of foreigners. SangHo does as well. It’s a lot of fans considering they haven’t won a major tournament yet. As for PuMa, I believe the offers came in due to his victory at NASL, but am just disappointed that he made such a big decision in such a short time.
This reply was lol worthy :D
Foreign teams approach kor top players because they give you wins in the #1 rated sc2 tournament under your team brand and in return you give them ... food.
Or you give them contracts so they have guaranteed money on a guarantee sponsored team for a guaranteed amount of time. Like EG did.
Instead of housing them in Korea and giving them food, in Korea housed up with your Korean team full of guys in the same position. While not being contracted. And having nothing guaranteed.
So TSL loses Tester, Fruitdealer, Rain, and now Puma. All for various reasons I know, but at some point they have to consider that the way they run their team might have something to do with why certain players are leaving.
TSL seems to think that if they provide room and board and an extremely modest stipend then they should have total loyalty of those players. Where does that loyalty end? At what point is a team taking advantage of the goodwill of players? Some people are loyal to the extreme up to the point it will damage their future and financial well being.
TSL should be putting players under contract. Even if it is just to say, that players have the right to shop for better deals so long as TSL gets right of first refusal or matching. Basing a business relationship on trust and loyalty is damaging and possibly emotionally confusing to young idealistic people as well as seasoned business people trying to find stability. I hope other teams take note as well.
Why do you think this happened? I think foreign teams approach them due to their fan base. Clide has a lot of foreign fans … about 2 to 3 thousand Twitter followers that consists mostly of foreigners. SangHo does as well. It’s a lot of fans considering they haven’t won a major tournament yet. As for PuMa, I believe the offers came in due to his victory at NASL, but am just disappointed that he made such a big decision in such a short time.
This reply was lol worthy :D
Foreign teams approach kor top players because they give you wins in the #1 rated sc2 tournament under your team brand and in return you give them ... food.
Jesus ignorance in posts like these make me want to punch a wall.
You think the team houses dont train their players?? If it was as simple as giving any player food and them winning for you then why does EG have to poach a player who doesnt even speak english??
Criticize the Korean way all you want but the fact of the matter is, it is proven to be successful at training higher level players. Idk about you but as people like Huk, Jinro, and other Koreans makes me love Esports because I want to watch people sacrifice and train to be the best, not just for the easy money.
On July 23 2011 05:34 Aurdon wrote: So TSL loses Tester, Fruitdealer, Rain, and now Puma. All for various reasons I know, but at some point they have to consider that the way they run their team might have something to do with why certain players are leaving.
TSL seems to think that if they provide room and board and an extremely modest stipend then they should have total loyalty of those players. Where does that loyalty end? At what point is a team taking advantage of the goodwill of players? Some people are loyal to the extreme up to the point it will damage their future and financial well being.
TSL should be putting players under contract. Even if it is just to say, that players have the right to shop for better deals so long as TSL gets right of first refusal or matching. Basing a business relationship on trust and loyalty is damaging and possibly emotionally confusing to young idealistic people as well as seasoned business people trying to find stability. I hope other teams take note as well.
if you read the interview, rain, fruitdealer and tester all left under amicible conditions. Fruitdealer and tester specifically left OGS i believe because they didnt want to practice as much. TSL had very loose practice conditions but then why they started losing the coach decided to up the practice schedule so they left.
If TSL is so bad you should ask why do players like Clide and Sangho still stay.
I wonder why there aren't more leagues or big tournaments in Korea, that would solve the problem. Does SC2 lake fanbase in Korea ? Anyway in a player perspective I understand Puma's decision, as his former coach said he can win more money in the foreign tournaments that he would ever won in Korea...
This stupid topic needs to die. So many 'experts' crawling out of the woodwork and sheep jumping on the bandwagon. The fact that Coach Lee even moaned about this originally on a public forum is a disgrace and he should be apologizing for causing this shitfest. If he had a serious gripe with EG's methods he should have contacted them before posting on a forum to seek a resolution. I do believe EG should have contacted TSL about it themselves, but assuming they let PuMa do what he wanted and talk to the Coach himself, if Alex Garfield is to be believed, then I'm not sure if they could have reasonably expected anything like this. Hell, PuMa hasn't even signed for EG yet...
The demands of the community for answers on something which they aren't really even obligated to know anything about is pretty absurd, as is the witch hunt that's going on right now.
On July 23 2011 05:44 FeeL_ThE_RusH wrote: This stupid topic needs to die. So many 'experts' crawling out of the woodwork and sheep jumping on the bandwagon. The fact that Coach Lee even moaned about this originally on a public forum is a disgrace and he should be apologizing for causing this shitfest. If he had a serious gripe with EG's methods he should have contacted them before posting on a forum to seek a resolution. I do believe EG should have contacted TSL about it themselves, but assuming they let PuMa do what he wanted and talk to the Coach himself, if Alex Garfield is to be believed, then I'm not sure if they could have reasonably expected anything like this. Hell, PuMa hasn't even signed for EG yet...
The demands of the community for answers on something which they aren't really even obligated to know anything about is pretty absurd, as is the witch hunt that's going on right now.
Agreed completely unfortunately there is only about 1% of us in the total community
On July 23 2011 05:44 FeeL_ThE_RusH wrote: This stupid topic needs to die. So many 'experts' crawling out of the woodwork and sheep jumping on the bandwagon. The fact that Coach Lee even moaned about this originally on a public forum is a disgrace and he should be apologizing for causing this shitfest. If he had a serious gripe with EG's methods he should have contacted them before posting on a forum to seek a resolution. I do believe EG should have contacted TSL about it themselves, but assuming they let PuMa do what he wanted and talk to the Coach himself, if Alex Garfield is to be believed, then I'm not sure if they could have reasonably expected anything like this. Hell, PuMa hasn't even signed for EG yet...
The demands of the community for answers on something which they aren't really even obligated to know anything about is pretty absurd, as is the witch hunt that's going on right now.
One of the few intelligent posts in this thread full of business and cultural "experts".
On July 23 2011 05:44 FeeL_ThE_RusH wrote: This stupid topic needs to die. So many 'experts' crawling out of the woodwork and sheep jumping on the bandwagon. The fact that Coach Lee even moaned about this originally on a public forum is a disgrace and he should be apologizing for causing this shitfest. If he had a serious gripe with EG's methods he should have contacted them before posting on a forum to seek a resolution. I do believe EG should have contacted TSL about it themselves, but assuming they let PuMa do what he wanted and talk to the Coach himself, if Alex Garfield is to be believed, then I'm not sure if they could have reasonably expected anything like this. Hell, PuMa hasn't even signed for EG yet...
The demands of the community for answers on something which they aren't really even obligated to know anything about is pretty absurd, as is the witch hunt that's going on right now.
Basically this. How was EG remotely in the wrong when Puma explicitly told them: "I want to talk to Coach Lee myself."
The paranoia, entitlement, ignorance, hyperbole, and misguided emotions on this site are getting seriously out of hand. On one post earlier in this thread someone actually suggested that EG was purposefully, single handedly trying to collapse the Korean SC2 scene by buying out their players.
The catastrophically stupid level of thinking that is required to put that idea forward is mind boggling, as is most conspiracy theorist ideas presented in this thread.
EG made an offer to Puma
Instead of EG talking to TSL, Puma asked to talk to TSL himself
Coach Lee got mad at EG for not going over Puma's head.
personally the way i see it is. Mr Lee feelings were hurt. to have someone who he has put so much time and energy and who he cared about personally has just went and threw him under the bus. it hurts i understand and sympathize with him for that.
but after all is said and done. I agree completely with Team EG. and i think it would have been benifical to Mr Lee if had waited to the whole thing was said and done before he lashed out as he has done
On July 23 2011 05:56 integrity wrote: personally the way i see it is. Mr Lee feelings were hurt. to have someone who he has put so much time and energy and who he cared about personally has just went and threw him under the bus. it hurts i understand and sympathize with him for that.
but after all is said and done. I agree completely with Team EG. and i think it would have been benifical to Mr Lee if had waited to the whole thing was said and done before he lashed out as he has done
I'd be more inclined to believe that this was just Lee's last straw. He's lost what, four players to other teams recently? I can see that being brutal, but in no way is EG at fault here, not for wanting to make their team better and certainly not for respecting Puma's decision to speak to his coach personally.
Nice to see the coach is respectable and mature enough not to flame EG and still wish the best for Puma, while respectfully and sadly disagreeing with his and his players actions, despite whether he personally thinks EG is garbage or not. Maybe EG could learn a little bit of this humility, it'd be a really nice small step for me and a lot of other people that will probably give about 2 shits about team EG for a long time coming.
On a sidenote, TSL has a new fanboy. What a bunch of winners <3
On July 23 2011 06:00 Vansetsu wrote: Nice to see the coach is respectable and mature enough not to flame EG and still wish the best for Puma, while respectfully and sadly disagreeing with his and his players actions, despite whether he personally thinks EG is garbage or not. Maybe EG could learn a little bit of this humility, it'd be a really nice small step for me and a lot of other people that will probably give about 2 shits about team EG for a long time coming.
On a sidenote, TSL has a new fanboy. What a bunch of winners <3
Why are you commending him for something that should be default. EG didn't do anything wrong, they weren't doing anything malicious, they made an offer to someone on his team, that person hasn't even accepted it yet.
What humility does EG need to learn? To disrespect their players/potential players wishes and go over their head?
On July 23 2011 06:00 Vansetsu wrote: Nice to see the coach is respectable and mature enough not to flame EG and still wish the best for Puma, while respectfully and sadly disagreeing with his and his players actions, despite whether he personally thinks EG is garbage or not. Maybe EG could learn a little bit of this humility, it'd be a really nice small step for me and a lot of other people that will probably give about 2 shits about team EG for a long time coming.
On a sidenote, TSL has a new fanboy. What a bunch of winners <3
Why are you commending him for something that should be default. EG didn't do anything wrong, they weren't doing anything malicious, they made an offer to someone on his team, that person hasn't even accepted it yet.
What humility does EG need to learn? To disrespect their players/potential players wishes and go over their head?
EG needs to learn that organizations (i.e. teams) exist and consider themselves invested in their players. It's common courtesy to let the team know PROFESSIONALLY, not after the fact. Don't even bring up the word contract.
I'm no business expert or anthropologist but Puma being given the chance to make a lot of money for doing what he loves and travel the world is pretty damn cool in my opinion.
"First of all, I would like to apologize to FruitDealer and Tester for not fulfilling what I’ve promised to do." I dunno how but somehow i was really touched by this statement, as a coach he recognizes his mistakes and it shows how he is really committed to this job. honestly i feel that throughout all this chaos the current members will have better room for their focus... kinda like from chaos comes order! best of lucky TSL <3
On July 23 2011 06:00 Vansetsu wrote: Nice to see the coach is respectable and mature enough not to flame EG and still wish the best for Puma, while respectfully and sadly disagreeing with his and his players actions, despite whether he personally thinks EG is garbage or not. Maybe EG could learn a little bit of this humility, it'd be a really nice small step for me and a lot of other people that will probably give about 2 shits about team EG for a long time coming.
On a sidenote, TSL has a new fanboy. What a bunch of winners <3
Why are you commending him for something that should be default. EG didn't do anything wrong, they weren't doing anything malicious, they made an offer to someone on his team, that person hasn't even accepted it yet.
What humility does EG need to learn? To disrespect their players/potential players wishes and go over their head?
Like others have said, EG has kind of a history of doing seedy stuff, acting hypocritical, ect. Some of their current lineup have repeatedly said and done things that aren't really too bright either. Kind of just the nail in the coffin for some I guess, I personally haven't cared for the team for a few years now. Their SC2 presence hadn't really helped me change my opinion either.
This whole situation wreaked of shit from the start, EG tries to make a deal with the former team when they want a player. It seems that EG was just fishing for interest, Puma expressed interested and wanted to discuss it himself with Mr. Lee first, and then Mr. Lee got pissed that another player wanted to leave and cried about it publicly when the deal isn't even done. EG has nothing to apologize for anyways because Puma wasn't even contracted and it's TSL's own fault for not contracting every one of their players. That has nothing to do with culture, it is pure business, contract your players (even just for room and board) if you want to keep them!!!
At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit.
We are going to put everyone on a contract. Every team member has agreed to sign and no other player has a desire to leave the team.
They're only now requiring their players to sign contracts? No wonder Puma left w/o resistance. If you go out in the rain without an umbrella, you'll get soaked. I've seen lemonade stands with better legal departments.
this really is too bad...well maybe with OGN going to WCG we'll see a SC2 OSL in the near future?? and maybe with this move sc2 will take off in korea..and multiple tournaments will pop up!
On July 23 2011 06:00 Vansetsu wrote: Nice to see the coach is respectable and mature enough not to flame EG and still wish the best for Puma, while respectfully and sadly disagreeing with his and his players actions, despite whether he personally thinks EG is garbage or not. Maybe EG could learn a little bit of this humility, it'd be a really nice small step for me and a lot of other people that will probably give about 2 shits about team EG for a long time coming.
On a sidenote, TSL has a new fanboy. What a bunch of winners <3
Why are you commending him for something that should be default. EG didn't do anything wrong, they weren't doing anything malicious, they made an offer to someone on his team, that person hasn't even accepted it yet.
What humility does EG need to learn? To disrespect their players/potential players wishes and go over their head?
Like others have said, EG has kind of a history of doing seedy stuff, acting hypocritical, ect. Some of their current lineup have repeatedly said and done things that aren't really too bright either. Kind of just the nail in the coffin for some I guess, I personally haven't cared for the team for a few years now. Their SC2 presence hadn't really helped me change my opinion either.
I deemed this transaction as shady at best and that was it until WoC yesterday. Alex Garfield's little "non-accusatory" question for Milkis just did it. If he's so worried about EG's public image being ruined, then he probably should've gone about this entire situation differently.
On July 23 2011 06:00 Vansetsu wrote: Nice to see the coach is respectable and mature enough not to flame EG and still wish the best for Puma, while respectfully and sadly disagreeing with his and his players actions, despite whether he personally thinks EG is garbage or not. Maybe EG could learn a little bit of this humility, it'd be a really nice small step for me and a lot of other people that will probably give about 2 shits about team EG for a long time coming.
On a sidenote, TSL has a new fanboy. What a bunch of winners <3
Why are you commending him for something that should be default. EG didn't do anything wrong, they weren't doing anything malicious, they made an offer to someone on his team, that person hasn't even accepted it yet.
What humility does EG need to learn? To disrespect their players/potential players wishes and go over their head?
Like others have said, EG has kind of a history of doing seedy stuff, acting hypocritical, ect. Some of their current lineup have repeatedly said and done things that aren't really too bright either. Kind of just the nail in the coffin for some I guess, I personally haven't cared for the team for a few years now. Their SC2 presence hadn't really helped me change my opinion either.
Puma explicitly requested that EG not talk to his coach and would rather speak to him himself. Are you confirming that EG, in their effort to learn humility, should ignore their players/potential players requests and go over their head?
Why do you think this happened? I think foreign teams approach them due to their fan base. Clide has a lot of foreign fans … about 2 to 3 thousand Twitter followers that consists mostly of foreigners. SangHo does as well. It’s a lot of fans considering they haven’t won a major tournament yet. As for PuMa, I believe the offers came in due to his victory at NASL, but am just disappointed that he made such a big decision in such a short time.
This reply was lol worthy :D
Foreign teams approach kor top players because they give you wins in the #1 rated sc2 tournament under your team brand and in return you give them ... food.
Jesus ignorance in posts like these make me want to punch a wall.
You think the team houses dont train their players?? If it was as simple as giving any player food and them winning for you then why does EG have to poach a player who doesnt even speak english??
Criticize the Korean way all you want but the fact of the matter is, it is proven to be successful at training higher level players. Idk about you but as people like Huk, Jinro, and other Koreans makes me love Esports because I want to watch people sacrifice and train to be the best, not just for the easy money.
On July 23 2011 05:34 Aurdon wrote: So TSL loses Tester, Fruitdealer, Rain, and now Puma. All for various reasons I know, but at some point they have to consider that the way they run their team might have something to do with why certain players are leaving.
TSL seems to think that if they provide room and board and an extremely modest stipend then they should have total loyalty of those players. Where does that loyalty end? At what point is a team taking advantage of the goodwill of players? Some people are loyal to the extreme up to the point it will damage their future and financial well being.
TSL should be putting players under contract. Even if it is just to say, that players have the right to shop for better deals so long as TSL gets right of first refusal or matching. Basing a business relationship on trust and loyalty is damaging and possibly emotionally confusing to young idealistic people as well as seasoned business people trying to find stability. I hope other teams take note as well.
if you read the interview, rain, fruitdealer and tester all left under amicible conditions. Fruitdealer and tester specifically left OGS i believe because they didnt want to practice as much. TSL had very loose practice conditions but then why they started losing the coach decided to up the practice schedule so they left.
If TSL is so bad you should ask why do players like Clide and Sangho still stay.
You know sometimes you need to read inbetween the lines... Just because they don't want to bash there former team doesn't mean they give 2 cents about them.
When you ask me to give my salary back because I'm winning money in CODE S I have a fundemental problem with my coach/organization. Just an opinion. The organization started paying players too fast, and they didn't get the sponsors that they hoped for. This is on the organization. when you work for someone you expect to be paid when they say they will pay you. Its really that simple.
PUMA got paid. PUMA saw established players not getting paid what was told would be there salary when they asked for it back.
On July 23 2011 05:44 FeeL_ThE_RusH wrote: This stupid topic needs to die. So many 'experts' crawling out of the woodwork and sheep jumping on the bandwagon. The fact that Coach Lee even moaned about this originally on a public forum is a disgrace and he should be apologizing for causing this shitfest. If he had a serious gripe with EG's methods he should have contacted them before posting on a forum to seek a resolution. I do believe EG should have contacted TSL about it themselves, but assuming they let PuMa do what he wanted and talk to the Coach himself, if Alex Garfield is to be believed, then I'm not sure if they could have reasonably expected anything like this. Hell, PuMa hasn't even signed for EG yet...
The demands of the community for answers on something which they aren't really even obligated to know anything about is pretty absurd, as is the witch hunt that's going on right now.
One of the few intelligent posts in this thread full of business and cultural "experts".
If anyone mention "welcome to the world of business".
It's the EG guys and their supporters.
And guess what, they might be doing great business, but I won't buy shit from their sponsor any more.
Of course my opinion doesn't matter, I'm only one person that can vote with my foot.
And EG shouldn't care about my opinion either, keep up their good PR management and continue doing stuff like this.
Oh btw, did the OP contact EG to get their approval yet? Or else why is this on the community news?
Im really glad to read Coach Lee's point of view on all this but im really disappointed that EG hasn't made a real statement about all this yet... the longer they wait only the worst it can be for their image if you ask me..
Why do you think this happened? I think foreign teams approach them due to their fan base. Clide has a lot of foreign fans … about 2 to 3 thousand Twitter followers that consists mostly of foreigners. SangHo does as well. It’s a lot of fans considering they haven’t won a major tournament yet. As for PuMa, I believe the offers came in due to his victory at NASL, but am just disappointed that he made such a big decision in such a short time.
This reply was lol worthy :D
Foreign teams approach kor top players because they give you wins in the #1 rated sc2 tournament under your team brand and in return you give them ... food.
Jesus ignorance in posts like these make me want to punch a wall.
You think the team houses dont train their players?? If it was as simple as giving any player food and them winning for you then why does EG have to poach a player who doesnt even speak english??
Criticize the Korean way all you want but the fact of the matter is, it is proven to be successful at training higher level players. Idk about you but as people like Huk, Jinro, and other Koreans makes me love Esports because I want to watch people sacrifice and train to be the best, not just for the easy money.
On July 23 2011 05:34 Aurdon wrote: So TSL loses Tester, Fruitdealer, Rain, and now Puma. All for various reasons I know, but at some point they have to consider that the way they run their team might have something to do with why certain players are leaving.
TSL seems to think that if they provide room and board and an extremely modest stipend then they should have total loyalty of those players. Where does that loyalty end? At what point is a team taking advantage of the goodwill of players? Some people are loyal to the extreme up to the point it will damage their future and financial well being.
TSL should be putting players under contract. Even if it is just to say, that players have the right to shop for better deals so long as TSL gets right of first refusal or matching. Basing a business relationship on trust and loyalty is damaging and possibly emotionally confusing to young idealistic people as well as seasoned business people trying to find stability. I hope other teams take note as well.
if you read the interview, rain, fruitdealer and tester all left under amicible conditions. Fruitdealer and tester specifically left OGS i believe because they didnt want to practice as much. TSL had very loose practice conditions but then why they started losing the coach decided to up the practice schedule so they left.
If TSL is so bad you should ask why do players like Clide and Sangho still stay.
You know sometimes you need to read inbetween the lines... Just because they don't want to bash there former team doesn't mean they give 2 cents about them.
When you ask me to give my salary back because I'm winning money in CODE S I have a fundemental problem with my coach/organization. Just an opinion. The organization started paying players too fast, and they didn't get the sponsors that they hoped for. This is on the organization. when you work for someone you expect to be paid when they say they will pay you. Its really that simple.
PUMA got paid. PUMA saw established players not getting paid what was told would be there salary when they asked for it back.
if you choose to "read between the lines" you can interpret things anyway you want to.
They're only now requiring their players to sign contracts? No wonder Puma left w/o resistance. If you go out in the rain without an umbrella, you'll get soaked. I've seen lemonade stands with better legal departments.
On the contrary, almost all TSL players have stayed out of either loyalty or just satisfaction, with Tester and Fruitdealer leaving early on with the blessing of the team. Rain was clearly making noises about leaving for a while (his dad in NY, his dream to travel etc) Without EG picking up PuMa, contracts would likely not be necessary for quite a while at least.
Like most disputes, both sides are at fault.
TSL could have done with some protection against this kind of 'poaching'.
EG could have done with... doing it in an ethical way?
Personally, I'm not so annoyed by the approach of EG as the fact that the team spirit of the Korean and foreigner teams will be worth nothing if they follow a purely capitalist approach. There needs to be some loyalty, some trust, and leaving your team should be a last resort if you are unhappy rather than a matter of course.
On July 23 2011 06:00 Vansetsu wrote: Nice to see the coach is respectable and mature enough not to flame EG and still wish the best for Puma, while respectfully and sadly disagreeing with his and his players actions, despite whether he personally thinks EG is garbage or not. Maybe EG could learn a little bit of this humility, it'd be a really nice small step for me and a lot of other people that will probably give about 2 shits about team EG for a long time coming.
On a sidenote, TSL has a new fanboy. What a bunch of winners <3
Why are you commending him for something that should be default. EG didn't do anything wrong, they weren't doing anything malicious, they made an offer to someone on his team, that person hasn't even accepted it yet.
What humility does EG need to learn? To disrespect their players/potential players wishes and go over their head?
Like others have said, EG has kind of a history of doing seedy stuff, acting hypocritical, ect. Some of their current lineup have repeatedly said and done things that aren't really too bright either. Kind of just the nail in the coffin for some I guess, I personally haven't cared for the team for a few years now. Their SC2 presence hadn't really helped me change my opinion either.
I deemed this transaction as shady at best and that was it until WoC yesterday. Alex Garfield's little "non-accusatory" question for Milkis just did it. If he's so worried about EG's public image being ruined, then he probably should've gone about this entire situation differently.
That's where this is just kind of ridiculous--they shouldn't have. Coach Lee on the other hand, should not have publicly scorned them for doing something very normal. The reason this is so stupid is that you would not be mad, this thread wouldn't exist, if Coach Lee wasn't mad about it.
Everyone seems to agree (or if they don't, that's an entirely different argument) that it was a good choice for Puma to leave a team that he had no contract with, no salary with, and no benefits with, for a team that offered him everything he didn't have.
People are mad because Lee tried to make it sound like EG did something wrong, and not say.. Puma, or himself. He even tried to coerce Puma to stay on the team by threatening that he'd get enormous backlash for making the switch. How is that ok but EG respecting Puma's decision to talk to Coach Lee himself instead of letting them talk to him, isn't ok?
On July 23 2011 06:16 phuzi0n wrote: This whole situation wreaked of shit from the start, EG tries to make a deal with the former team when they want a player. It seems that EG was just fishing for interest, Puma expressed interested and wanted to discuss it himself with Mr. Lee first, and then Mr. Lee got pissed that another player wanted to leave and cried about it publicly when the deal isn't even done. EG has nothing to apologize for anyways because Puma wasn't even contracted and it's TSL's own fault for not contracting every one of their players. That has nothing to do with culture, it is pure business, contract your players (even just for room and board) if you want to keep them!!!
Totally agree with this statement. I'm really disappointed with the response the vast majority of the community has put forward; like it or not, the foreign scene has become more lucrative than the Korean scene in regards to SC2. I applaud EG for offering Puma the opportunity to travel and reap greater benefits for his talents. As far as the manner in which this took place, it was fully within their rights as an organization, and given the nature of the aforementioned 'fishing', there was no responsibility to contact the coach; Puma had even told them he would prefer to do so himself. So EG, I applaud you.
On July 23 2011 06:30 JayDee_ wrote: You can't blame a person for wanting a better deal if you don't have that person on contract. TSL's lack of professionalism is showing.
Yeah EG is so professional and this brewed into a shitstorm.
uhhh... btw the game is starcraft and TSL grows good players that wins shit, seems like theyre doing something right.
On July 23 2011 06:27 Fishriot wrote: I get the feeling that Alex Garfield's time on WoC was his statement, as shady and hypocritical as it was...
Explicitly state what was shady and/or hypocritical about what he said on WOC?
it was pretty shady and hypocritical when he attacked a translator for guess what? translating
the whole thing was just a bad idea. you have AG, who should be professional trained to handle PR, given thats his job representing EG. then you have milkis, who represents.... what? if its between EG and TSL then TSL should have sent someone or at least presented their argument to milkis. instead this is like that episode of SOTG where day9 (milkis in this case) lost that debate on balance when he didnt even engage in a debate on balance.
Hope puma fails horrible next tournament. Thankfully EG got players we know will fail like incontrol (sorry hate that guy and his dying love for shit eg)
Will be cheering for EG, to fail.
Clide, best human on earth! CLIIIIIIIIIDE!!
And btw, TSL got a billion times better players then useless EG.
On July 23 2011 06:25 OliverDONG wrote: Im really glad to read Coach Lee's point of view on all this but im really disappointed that EG hasn't made a real statement about all this yet... the longer they wait only the worst it can be for their image if you ask me..
why. the papers as of yet haven't been signed...Puma is still not officially EG yet no need to comment yet
The fact that this is even an issue bugs me. I mean, I feel bad for Coach Lee since he seems like a nice guy and is trying really hard to keep his team together and all, but if you try to do business without contracts like that, you have to watch out for things like this. It's not like Puma rode away from TSL with his middle finger up after EG randomly showed up and gave him free blowies for life. Anyone who is "disgusted" by either of their actions or refuses to cheer for either EG or Puma is being oversensitive. Obviously it was a hard decision for Puma and dealt with factors completely out of TSL's, EG's or Puma's control, such as the state of SC2 and progaming in Korea as opposed to other countries. Sure, EG's methods may not have been 100% agreeable but what can Lee expect when his business model is "yeah you guys can hang out and play starcraft with us, y'know, if you really want", especially when some of these guys are hyped as balls and in this case motherfucking champions.
Wow, he handling it a lot better then others would. If we saw the coach of FXO or Slayers get a player stolen I think we would be seeing a much more heated response.
Are you saying that some other TSL members were approached as well? Yes, I found out through this whole ordeal. When SangHo and Clide were approached by other teams, they told me that they declined the offers due to their respect for TSL and the importance of continuing with the team that they originally started with. They thought it was best not to tell me since they thought it would cause unnecessary distractions and concerns.
So other teams have reached out to ShanHo and Clide, and they didnt go thru Coach Lee. It seems like no one talks to Coach Lee first, no wonder hes pissed.
On July 23 2011 06:00 Vansetsu wrote: Nice to see the coach is respectable and mature enough not to flame EG and still wish the best for Puma, while respectfully and sadly disagreeing with his and his players actions, despite whether he personally thinks EG is garbage or not. Maybe EG could learn a little bit of this humility, it'd be a really nice small step for me and a lot of other people that will probably give about 2 shits about team EG for a long time coming.
On a sidenote, TSL has a new fanboy. What a bunch of winners <3
Why are you commending him for something that should be default. EG didn't do anything wrong, they weren't doing anything malicious, they made an offer to someone on his team, that person hasn't even accepted it yet.
What humility does EG need to learn? To disrespect their players/potential players wishes and go over their head?
Like others have said, EG has kind of a history of doing seedy stuff, acting hypocritical, ect. Some of their current lineup have repeatedly said and done things that aren't really too bright either. Kind of just the nail in the coffin for some I guess, I personally haven't cared for the team for a few years now. Their SC2 presence hadn't really helped me change my opinion either.
Puma explicitly requested that EG not talk to his coach and would rather speak to him himself. Are you confirming that EG, in their effort to learn humility, should ignore their players/potential players requests and go over their head?
...Dude.
First of all, as far as humility is concerned, like I just got done typing, they have a HISTORY of this sort of thing.
Second, it's arguable whether EG should have approached TSL and not Puma first to begin with (as that kind of makes the whole "going over pumas head thing irreverent, and, i don't know, maybe shows some respect to TSL as well?). Regardless, most people think it's a lousy thing to do, TSL is not just a training camp, it is a team. TSL trained a great player, EG bought him out from under TSL. Like I said, it's an arguable way to do business. But most people who feel like I do think it's a pretty dirty thing to do, as TSL looses a friend and a teammate, Puma probably looses the training environment that made him good in the first place, and EG just gets to act like it has some merit for "fielding" a player, of whom they didn't do anything of merit to foster his ability. I personally think on 20 levels that's just bad, but that's just mine an obviously some others opinion.
Anyways, next time you quote me, please read what is written and not what you want to argue about.
Are you saying that some other TSL members were approached as well? Yes, I found out through this whole ordeal. When SangHo and Clide were approached by other teams, they told me that they declined the offers due to their respect for TSL and the importance of continuing with the team that they originally started with. They thought it was best not to tell me since they thought it would cause unnecessary distractions and concerns.
So other teams have reached out to ShanHo and Clide, and they didnt go thru Coach Lee. It seems like no one talks to Coach Lee first, no wonder hes pissed.
That's because no one is supposed to. It can't be that hard to like, critically think about that. You don't go to a coach and say: "Hey I'd like to recruit one of your top players!" before speaking to that player.
If Puma was contracted, that'd be different. And even then, in no circumstance will Coach Lee ever be the first person spoken to about it if at all. It's up to the player, not him. If puma was contracted, AFTER speaking with Puma, they would contact Coach Lee to set up a buyout to fulfill the contract, but Puma wasn't contracted. It's his decision to leave and Coach Lee really shouldn't have a say in it.
People think way too little before posting (not you, in general though). Whenever something like this occurs, lay out the facts objectively to see what's going on.
EG made an offer to Puma. Puma showed interest. Puma requested that he speak to Coach Lee instead of EG. EG let him do that. Puma spoke to Coach Lee. Coach Lee made public statements about what happened. EG is getting backlash for not speaking to Coach Lee. See line 3.
The fact that this is even an issue is mind boggling.
This kid is good enough to be a consistently top placing pro if not one of the best ever ...
... and he was approached by a top foreign team that has more prospects to play professionally.
And they probably offered him a much better deal.
So he took it. Good on him. Kids not under contract. He has the right to look after his own career.
In the U.S. it would be considered odd for anyone to have any kind of a problem with this at all. It would have nothing to do with 'honor' or 'loyalty' here.
As far as I know, the guys in TSL are not his childhood friends from the old gang that formed a pro gaming team. Its business. He got a better deal.
TSL fucked up by not getting that contract. End of story imo.
On July 23 2011 06:16 phuzi0n wrote: This whole situation wreaked of shit from the start, EG tries to make a deal with the former team when they want a player. It seems that EG was just fishing for interest, Puma expressed interested and wanted to discuss it himself with Mr. Lee first, and then Mr. Lee got pissed that another player wanted to leave and cried about it publicly when the deal isn't even done. EG has nothing to apologize for anyways because Puma wasn't even contracted and it's TSL's own fault for not contracting every one of their players. That has nothing to do with culture, it is pure business, contract your players (even just for room and board) if you want to keep them!!!
I am not hating on EG but you should really check EG's history :D in getting members.
I dont quite understand the BW vs SC2 dynamic in Korea. I still follow the JinAir OSL and still pay attention to the Brood War pro scene (though I don't play BW anymore). I just feel like you can follow both games at the same time and it's really unfortunate that the Korean fans haven't quite made SC2 as popular.
On July 23 2011 06:41 Vansetsu wrote: econd, it's arguable whether EG should have approached TSL and not Puma first to begin with (as that kind of makes the whole "going over pumas head thing irreverent, and, i don't know, maybe shows some respect to TSL as well?). Regardless, most people think it's a lousy thing to do, TSL is not just a training camp, it is a team. TSL trained a great player, EG bought him out from under TSL. Like I said, it's an arguable way to do business. But most people who feel like I do think it's a pretty dirty thing to do, as TSL looses a friend and a teammate, Puma probably looses the training environment that made him good in the first place, and EG just gets to act like it has some merit for "fielding" a player, of whom they didn't do anything of merit to foster his ability. I personally think on 20 levels that's just bad, but that's just mine an obviously some others opinion.
That is ridiculous. You do not talk to a team before even fishing to find out if the player is interested in leaving the team for yours. If Mr Lee hadn't came out crying publicly I'm sure EG would have contacted him to try to work out a buyout even though Puma isn't even contracted. Mr Lee shit all over Puma and EG by threatening there would be backlash and then crying about it to create the backlash. Everybody would be excited about this if he had kept his mouth shut and waited for the private talks to happen.
I dont know why people are bashing on EG. They did nothing wrong except tell TSL, which they didnt even need to do. This is just cultural difference. If puma was on contract, EG would definitepy be wrong, but puma wasnt. So stop bashing on EG.
On another note, good luck to TSL. It must be a pretty fragile situation there and I give them my full support.
On July 23 2011 06:39 Craminit wrote: Wow, he handling it a lot better then others would. If we saw the coach of FXO or Slayers get a player stolen I think we would be seeing a much more heated response.
I really don't think it would be heated with FXO. They have previously reached out to players already on team to recruit, and said that it's business. So if the reverse were to happen I'm sure they would be upset as any team would be, but I don't think it would get heated.
Good that they decided to contract all their players. It's a good step forward in pro gaming and I hope other teams follow this example. It's the only way to prevent players from leaving without being financially compensated.
On July 23 2011 06:48 Von wrote: This kid is good enough to be a consistently top placing pro if not one of the best ever ...
... and he was approached by a top foreign team that has more prospects to play professionally.
And they probably offered him a much better deal.
So he took it. Good on him. Kids not under contract. He has the right to look after his own career.
In the U.S. it would be considered odd for anyone to have any kind of a problem with this at all. It would have nothing to do with 'honor' or 'loyalty' here.
As far as I know, the guys in TSL are not his childhood friends from the old gang that formed a pro gaming team. Its business. He got a better deal.
TSL fucked up by not getting that contract. End of story imo.
Whoah Whoah Whoah TSL_Gentleman (that's his real ID, watch more Gretech corp imo) isn't a world class player that has the chance to be the best ever. NASL was only a big deal not because of the player pool but rather because of the prize pool. Puma travelled to the US, realized everyone here sucked, took our trophy, and realized "hey, i think i want to take more trophies from these chubby kids"
The only reason why this is dramatic is because he's a hot commodity after NASL.
Please wait for about 2 months, during which time Puma might have won an ICCup or a Zotac cup. He will be somewhat dominant here in the US, but only comparatively. I honestly think Puma is a B-teamer on TSL, which explains exactly why he wasn't given a contract.
After winning an untaxed 50,000$, yeah it's a big deal for TSL to lose him at this time. And considering EG's best players are Idra and Incontrol, yeah it's a big deal for EG to pick him up.
But if you would please put this in the context of IM_Bomber, who if those two ever played a game? HAHAHAHAHAHAH Bomber could fucking walk up to his booth and make faces in the middle of the god damn fucking game and still go back to his booth and win.
I wholeheartedly wish all people could scout talent as well as the handful that do it correctly <cough>. Coach Lee is one of those people. That's why he :
a) didn't sign puma b) didn't give a shit when he left other than c) wanted to make sure his departure was not well received in the US. Good luck <shrug>
On July 23 2011 06:48 Von wrote: This kid is good enough to be a consistently top placing pro if not one of the best ever ...
... and he was approached by a top foreign team that has more prospects to play professionally.
And they probably offered him a much better deal.
So he took it. Good on him. Kids not under contract. He has the right to look after his own career.
In the U.S. it would be considered odd for anyone to have any kind of a problem with this at all. It would have nothing to do with 'honor' or 'loyalty' here.
As far as I know, the guys in TSL are not his childhood friends from the old gang that formed a pro gaming team. Its business. He got a better deal.
TSL fucked up by not getting that contract. End of story imo.
100% agree. This is a very simple situation and the only people who are getting upset about it are kids who don't have real jobs.
On July 23 2011 06:48 Von wrote: This kid is good enough to be a consistently top placing pro if not one of the best ever ...
... and he was approached by a top foreign team that has more prospects to play professionally.
And they probably offered him a much better deal.
So he took it. Good on him. Kids not under contract. He has the right to look after his own career.
In the U.S. it would be considered odd for anyone to have any kind of a problem with this at all. It would have nothing to do with 'honor' or 'loyalty' here.
As far as I know, the guys in TSL are not his childhood friends from the old gang that formed a pro gaming team. Its business. He got a better deal.
TSL fucked up by not getting that contract. End of story imo.
Whoah Whoah Whoah TSL_Gentleman (that's his real ID, watch more Gretech corp imo) isn't a world class player that has the chance to be the best ever. NASL was only a big deal not because of the player pool but rather because of the prize pool. Puma travelled to the US, realized everyone here sucked, took our trophy, and realized "hey, i think i want to take more trophies from these chubby kids"
The only reason why this is dramatic is because he's a hot commodity after NASL.
Please wait for about 2 months, during which time Puma might have won an ICCup or a Zotac cup. He will be somewhat dominant here in the US, but only comparatively. I honestly think Puma is a B-teamer on TSL, which explains exactly why he wasn't given a contract.
After winning an untaxed 50,000$, yeah it's a big deal for TSL to lose him at this time. And considering EG's best players are Idra and Incontrol, yeah it's a big deal for EG to pick him up.
But if you would please put this in the context of IM_Bomber, who if those two ever played a game? HAHAHAHAHAHAH Bomber could fucking walk up to his booth and make faces in the middle of the god damn fucking game and still go back to his booth and win.
I wholeheartedly wish all people could scout talent as well as the handful that do it correctly <cough>. Coach Lee is one of those people. That's why he :
a) didn't sign puma b) didn't give a shit when he left other than c) wanted to make sure his departure was not well received in the US. Good luck <shrug>
A quick tip, if you're going to post a long-winded, blow hard know-it-all post, at least get the team of your supposed jesus player right, It's ST_Bomber bro. Oh yeah, who did Puma beat at the NASL, do you even know? Probably not.
On July 23 2011 06:41 Vansetsu wrote: econd, it's arguable whether EG should have approached TSL and not Puma first to begin with (as that kind of makes the whole "going over pumas head thing irreverent, and, i don't know, maybe shows some respect to TSL as well?). Regardless, most people think it's a lousy thing to do, TSL is not just a training camp, it is a team. TSL trained a great player, EG bought him out from under TSL. Like I said, it's an arguable way to do business. But most people who feel like I do think it's a pretty dirty thing to do, as TSL looses a friend and a teammate, Puma probably looses the training environment that made him good in the first place, and EG just gets to act like it has some merit for "fielding" a player, of whom they didn't do anything of merit to foster his ability. I personally think on 20 levels that's just bad, but that's just mine an obviously some others opinion.
That is ridiculous. You do not talk to a team before even fishing to find out if the player is interested in leaving the team for yours. If Mr Lee hadn't came out crying publicly I'm sure EG would have contacted him to try to work out a buyout even though Puma isn't even contracted. Mr Lee shit all over Puma and EG by threatening there would be backlash and then crying about it to create the backlash. Everybody would be excited about this if he had kept his mouth shut and waited for the private talks to happen.
Like people have said on both sides of the issue, it is a cultural thing. Mr Lee did not "shit all over Puma and EG" he warned him there might be a korean ,and now, because of it, foreign backlash when they found out how this trade went down.
"Manager Lee noted that "It is disappointing that we have to make a decision like this, but it's extremely objectionable [T/N: displeasing, disgusting, etc] that Evil Geniuses would ignore the coaches completely and directly go talk to the player"
""He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this""
Albeit, that system is at the least a simple contract, but it does not change the fact that this is not the practice for SC2 teams in Korea, and many over there are finding it offensive.
Furthermore, as many people have mentioned, even in the OP of this interview with Mr Lee, the Korean SC2 scene is hard right now with only one major tournament.-- While this may be true, it is the Korean scene that is putting in the work to build strong players. Tournaments results, and even the self evidence of the interest in Korean trained players shows this. Cutting us off from the Korean scene, and/or having the Korean scene loose interest or popularity, greatly influences things over here, and the caliber of high level SC2 everywhere.
I don't know about you, but I would much rather watch a game with the caliber of Bomber vs DRG than of something like KawaiiRice vs Destiny in the near future.
On July 23 2011 06:39 Craminit wrote: Wow, he handling it a lot better then others would. If we saw the coach of FXO or Slayers get a player stolen I think we would be seeing a much more heated response.
bad economy and the small Korean SC2 fan base compared to SC1. Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport.
The monopoly of GomTv is preventing the growth of SC2 in S. Korea. :|
This was news to me. Hard to defend EG when there is a precedent for shady shit like this.
As a member of the CS community i find it bullshit that you guys bring this up now. the reason the team left was because they didn't even know if directv was going to give the compLexity brand back to jason lake, let alone if jason lake could provide the money to allow them to go to events.
bad economy and the small Korean SC2 fan base compared to SC1. Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport.
The monopoly of GomTv is preventing the growth of SC2 in S. Korea. :|
You could not be any more wrong. There is a much bigger problem in Korea atm holding everything back.
On July 23 2011 06:47 Kich wrote: The fact that this is even an issue is mind boggling.
This's what I'm sayin'.
Sounds like this has more to do with Korean culture than anything else.
.
I think it is less a function of Korean culture and more a function of internet culture. Kiddies on the internet love to stir up drama over the most benign and mundane things. Outrage is so much fun after all. All these people saying "I will never buy their sponsor's products or cheer for them" crack me up, because they are such empty threats. These people will forget this incident in a week's time.
...this is just stupid. Puma was not a signed player. EG offered him something that his old team could not. It would have been a horrible decision if Puma let the offer pass. Lee can only blame himself for not contracting his players. There is a reason why all of his top players have left the team. I just cant wrap my brain around people getting all worked up over this. This is a business and the managers and fans need to understand that. Also the players need to be thought of as individuals and not team property. EG didn't "steal" anything from TSL, the player made the decision to leave in order to better his career. I am happy for both Puma and EG and I hope TSL can get back on track and continue to be a competitive starcraft 2 team.
bad economy and the small Korean SC2 fan base compared to SC1. Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport.
The monopoly of GomTv is preventing the growth of SC2 in S. Korea. :|
You could not be any more wrong. There is a much bigger problem in Korea atm holding everything back.
On July 23 2011 06:48 Von wrote: This kid is good enough to be a consistently top placing pro if not one of the best ever ...
... and he was approached by a top foreign team that has more prospects to play professionally.
And they probably offered him a much better deal.
So he took it. Good on him. Kids not under contract. He has the right to look after his own career.
In the U.S. it would be considered odd for anyone to have any kind of a problem with this at all. It would have nothing to do with 'honor' or 'loyalty' here.
As far as I know, the guys in TSL are not his childhood friends from the old gang that formed a pro gaming team. Its business. He got a better deal.
TSL fucked up by not getting that contract. End of story imo.
Whoah Whoah Whoah TSL_Gentleman (that's his real ID, watch more Gretech corp imo) isn't a world class player that has the chance to be the best ever. NASL was only a big deal not because of the player pool but rather because of the prize pool. Puma travelled to the US, realized everyone here sucked, took our trophy, and realized "hey, i think i want to take more trophies from these chubby kids"
The only reason why this is dramatic is because he's a hot commodity after NASL.
Please wait for about 2 months, during which time Puma might have won an ICCup or a Zotac cup. He will be somewhat dominant here in the US, but only comparatively. I honestly think Puma is a B-teamer on TSL, which explains exactly why he wasn't given a contract.
After winning an untaxed 50,000$, yeah it's a big deal for TSL to lose him at this time. And considering EG's best players are Idra and Incontrol, yeah it's a big deal for EG to pick him up.
But if you would please put this in the context of IM_Bomber, who if those two ever played a game? HAHAHAHAHAHAH Bomber could fucking walk up to his booth and make faces in the middle of the god damn fucking game and still go back to his booth and win.
I wholeheartedly wish all people could scout talent as well as the handful that do it correctly <cough>. Coach Lee is one of those people. That's why he :
a) didn't sign puma b) didn't give a shit when he left other than c) wanted to make sure his departure was not well received in the US. Good luck <shrug>
You are an extremely clueless kid, PuMa was easily TSL's ace and Bomber is from ST, just gtfo.
It seems to me that he's not really criticizing EG anymore. Guess hw eas just mad the first time and calmed down by now. Ultimately the problem is that the fan base in Korea for SC2 is pretty small atm (compared to SC1) and that is why sponsors are hard to find. It is only natural that foreign teams with a bigger budget can lure players away. IMO this situation will be solved in a year or two, when SC2 becomes the premier eSports game in Korea as it has already become in the rest of the world...
I am sure you tried to keep him from leaving. What kind of conversation have you two had during this whole process? That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams. I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this, but he was adamant that he would be able to live through this negativity. He felt bad about his decision and told us that he knew a lot about the team (EG) already. Since we are bound to run into each other again in the future, we decided to part ways amicably.
This really gets me into a rage...
There wouldn't have been a fraction of the "negativity" that has occurred if Lee hadn't immediately started giving his sob story about how "the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", and painting EG as some big evil corporation etc. Then he goes on talking about players giving him back their salaries and stipends to seal the sympathy vote.
If you truly care for your players, then you'll be happy for them when they find a better situation for themselves, and grateful to the people who provided it. It makes me wonder if he even believes it himself.
I don't know what makes me more sick, Coach Lee's statements about the situation, or the majority of the communities reaction to it.
On July 23 2011 06:16 phuzi0n wrote: This whole situation wreaked of shit from the start, EG tries to make a deal with the former team when they want a player. It seems that EG was just fishing for interest, Puma expressed interested and wanted to discuss it himself with Mr. Lee first, and then Mr. Lee got pissed that another player wanted to leave and cried about it publicly when the deal isn't even done. EG has nothing to apologize for anyways because Puma wasn't even contracted and it's TSL's own fault for not contracting every one of their players. That has nothing to do with culture, it is pure business, contract your players (even just for room and board) if you want to keep them!!!
I am not hating on EG but you should really check EG's history :D in getting members.
Please do tell us about this history. I'd like to make sure I have all the facts.
On July 23 2011 06:41 Vansetsu wrote: econd, it's arguable whether EG should have approached TSL and not Puma first to begin with (as that kind of makes the whole "going over pumas head thing irreverent, and, i don't know, maybe shows some respect to TSL as well?). Regardless, most people think it's a lousy thing to do, TSL is not just a training camp, it is a team. TSL trained a great player, EG bought him out from under TSL. Like I said, it's an arguable way to do business. But most people who feel like I do think it's a pretty dirty thing to do, as TSL looses a friend and a teammate, Puma probably looses the training environment that made him good in the first place, and EG just gets to act like it has some merit for "fielding" a player, of whom they didn't do anything of merit to foster his ability. I personally think on 20 levels that's just bad, but that's just mine an obviously some others opinion.
That is ridiculous. You do not talk to a team before even fishing to find out if the player is interested in leaving the team for yours. If Mr Lee hadn't came out crying publicly I'm sure EG would have contacted him to try to work out a buyout even though Puma isn't even contracted. Mr Lee shit all over Puma and EG by threatening there would be backlash and then crying about it to create the backlash. Everybody would be excited about this if he had kept his mouth shut and waited for the private talks to happen.
Like people have said on both sides of the issue, it is a cultural thing. Mr Lee did not "shit all over Puma and EG" he warned him there might be a korean ,and now, because of it, foreign backlash when they found out how this trade went down.
"Manager Lee noted that "It is disappointing that we have to make a decision like this, but it's extremely objectionable [T/N: displeasing, disgusting, etc] that Evil Geniuses would ignore the coaches completely and directly go talk to the player"
""He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this""
Albeit, that system is at the least a simple contract, but it does not change the fact that this is not the practice for SC2 teams in Korea, and many over there are finding it offensive.
Furthermore, as many people have mentioned, even in the OP of this interview with Mr Lee, the Korean SC2 scene is hard right now with only one major tournament.-- While this may be true, it is the Korean scene that is putting in the work to build strong players. Tournaments results, and even the self evidence of the interest in Korean trained players shows this. Cutting us off from the Korean scene, and/or having the Korean scene loose interest or popularity, greatly influences things over here, and the caliber of high level SC2 everywhere.
I don't know about you, but I would much rather watch a game with the caliber of Bomber vs DRG than of something like KawaiiRice vs Destiny in the near future.
People can pretend it's a cultural thing all that they want to but it's not, it's is purely business and Mr Lee is bad at business. If you don't want your players leaving, contract them and make sure you do everything you can to make them happy so that they renew their contracts. In SC1 teams knew to do this, why is anyone giving Mr Lee a shred of sympathy for forgetting something that Korean teams already know to do.
He absolutely was shitting on Puma and EG by crying out publicly so early. His comments about possible backlash were a threat not a warning, if he had kept his comments neutral (in which case we wouldn't know about it) then it would have been a warning, but instead he stirred up the backlash he talked about, thus it was a threat he followed through on.
Everyone is just so quick to demonize EG, it's ridiculous. EG gave out cards to all the Korean players, they wanted to recruit a Korean, nothing wrong with that. Out of everyone, Puma was the one who was interested, and not under contract. They made him an attractive offer, he liked it, and he decided he should be the one to bring it up with his team.
So what's the problem? The TSL coach is just upset because they lost all their top players to teams who can actually pay them. What a bastard Puma is for wanting to actually be paid for the hard work he puts in...
TSL needs to focus on fixing TSL, not on crying about how their players are being "stolen", or they are going to fade into obscurity.
Personally, I think they should recruit a foreign player onto their team... that is, if they could afford to pay them.
Looks like coach Lee calmed down after his initial heated response. I don't really see anything wrong with what EG did and find the vocal backlash against them to be unwarranted. It is also interesting hearing about the state of SC2 in Korea right now. Things could be shifting and changing a lot in the next few months.
I am sure you tried to keep him from leaving. What kind of conversation have you two had during this whole process? That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams. I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this, but he was adamant that he would be able to live through this negativity. He felt bad about his decision and told us that he knew a lot about the team (EG) already. Since we are bound to run into each other again in the future, we decided to part ways amicably.
This really gets me into a rage...
There wouldn't have been a fraction of the "negativity" that has occurred if Lee hadn't immediately started giving his sob story about how "the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", and painting EG as some big evil corporation etc. Then he goes on talking about players giving him back their salaries and stipends to seal the sympathy vote.
If you truly care for your players, then you'll be happy for them when they find a better situation for themselves, and grateful to the people who provided it. It makes me wonder if he even believes it himself.
I don't know what makes me more sick, Coach Lee's statements about the situation, or the majority of the communities reaction to it.
I ponder if you would do differently and be all quiet about it, I know I wouldn't, it makes me wonder if you even believe yourself.
On July 23 2011 07:47 itiswhatitis wrote: Everyone is just so quick to demonize EG, it's ridiculous. EG gave out cards to all the Korean players, they wanted to recruit a Korean, nothing wrong with that. Out of everyone, Puma was the one who was interested, and not under contract. They made him an attractive offer, he liked it, and he decided he should be the one to bring it up with his team.
So what's the problem? The TSL coach is just upset because they lost all their top players to teams who can actually pay them. What a bastard Puma is for wanting to actually be paid for the hard work he puts in...
TSL needs to focus on fixing TSL, not on crying about how their players are being "stolen", or they are going to fade into obscurity.
Personally, I think they should recruit a foreign player onto their team... that is, if they could afford to pay them.
It has nothing to do with that, it has to do with common courtesy. TSL is the team that grew Puma to who he is, there is no doubt that Puma indeed has the final word in the decision, however it is simple courtesy to allow the team to know that EG is indeed interested in getting Puma. By not talking to TSL team first, it doesn't allow TSL to counter negotiate with their own player Puma. Its the same thing about other professional sports, like basketball, and football. Teams trade with teams, and its fairly obvious that approaching Puma before, or not w/ any of TSL's management is a pretty big travesty.
Also this will make Korean teams much much more weary about their players, being much more protective of them from foreign team advancements, ESPECIALLY after an ordeal such as this. I believe the coach of TSL just wanted some transparency, and wanted to hear the news from EG's management, and not have to ask his player to find out. This is common business practice, and a form of courtesy.
On July 22 2011 12:48 VeryAverage wrote: I know the whole "hurting eSports" thing is overplayed to death, but seriously, this really is.
The best players are in Korea (look how much Huk improved from practicing there). The hardest competition is in Korea. Therefore, the best players should stay in Korea. Yeah, having a foreign scene is cool, but Korea has proven that they will stick with it for years and years, while this foreign scene could be a flash in the pan for all we know.
I hope we don't just start buying up people so we can kill the small and fragile SC2 scene there.
Yet the korean scene barely survives. Why? Because they have bad business sense, it was a foolish decision for one league to own all the rights to SC2 in korea.
You can blame blizzard for that actually. They gave GOM exclusive broadcasting rights till 2012 ( not sure about the year. Might be 2014) because they had their panties in a knot with their court case with kespa
On July 23 2011 07:47 itiswhatitis wrote: Everyone is just so quick to demonize EG, it's ridiculous. EG gave out cards to all the Korean players, they wanted to recruit a Korean, nothing wrong with that. Out of everyone, Puma was the one who was interested, and not under contract. They made him an attractive offer, he liked it, and he decided he should be the one to bring it up with his team.
So what's the problem? The TSL coach is just upset because they lost all their top players to teams who can actually pay them. What a bastard Puma is for wanting to actually be paid for the hard work he puts in...
TSL needs to focus on fixing TSL, not on crying about how their players are being "stolen", or they are going to fade into obscurity.
Personally, I think they should recruit a foreign player onto their team... that is, if they could afford to pay them.
It has nothing to do with that, it has to do with common courtesy. TSL is the team that grew Puma to who he is, there is no doubt that Puma indeed has the final word in the decision, however it is simple courtesy to allow the team to know that EG is indeed interested in getting Puma. By not talking to TSL team first, it doesn't allow TSL to counter negotiate with their own player Puma. Its the same thing about other professional sports, like basketball, and football. Teams trade with teams, and its fairly obvious that approaching Puma before, or not w/ any of TSL's management is a pretty big travesty.
Also this will make Korean teams much much more weary about their players, being much more protective of them from foreign team advancements, ESPECIALLY after an ordeal such as this. I believe the coach of TSL just wanted some transparency, and wanted to hear the news from EG's management, and not have to ask his player to find out. This is common business practice, and a form of courtesy.
No, it isn't fairly obvious that approaching Puma before TSL management is a big travesty because it isn't. Lee brewed up a hyperbole of the situation and painted a bad picture of EG and that's it.
Explain to us how Lee having to ask Puma about the situation when Puma asked EG to stay out of it because he would do it himself is EG's fault whatsoever. Also, Puma isn't even on EG yet--TSL has all the time in the world to counter-negotiate if they were so inclined but they're not going to. They don't have any money.
Furthermore, if TSL was such an amazing thing to be a part of, why is it that Puma was so eager to leave?
Like, it's no one's fault. Because this isn't an issue. If anything however, the fact that Puma was not incredibly transparent and clear with Lee the moment he made his decision, instead of dodging and evading it for so long, this probably would not have happened.
Lee is outraged that he's losing players and his team is slowly coming apart, he's directing that anger at EG. That's it.
PuMa has his own decision, PuMa has his own life. PuMa was not OWNED by TSL or anyone else. Maybe PuMa WANTS to make a a good salary to play sc2. Maybe PuMa WANTED to change teams??
Don't try to make EG look bad because of the miscomunication issues between the players and coaches.
On July 23 2011 08:23 pyaar wrote: big respect for Clide, SangHo and Coach Lee, not so much for EG and to a lesser degree PuMa.
Seriously, what's wrong with all of you? What fanciful unicorn utopia do you all live in where one team acquiring a player from another team is considered disrespectful?
Where was all of the hate for Sheth or QXC when they left ROOT for money? Why is it alright for that to occur, for FXO to speak only to Sheth or QXC about joining them, without speaking to Catz and Drewbie, and letting Sheth and QXC talk to their teams individually to sort the issue out, but because Puma is Korean and Lee went out of his way to demonize EG this is suddenly a big deal?
Why is that?
Do you recognize the inconsistency in the reaction from the community based on who it's happening to and not the actual issue itself?
TSL's sponsorship (and basically life of the team) depends on results. EG steals their best player, results not as good, TSL is in danger of folding.
If TSL does end up going under I will put all the blame solely on Geoff. I know he doesn't deserve it, but if he wasn't so crap maybe they wouldn't need Puma.
Thank you for posting this, it offers a lot of insight that (cough half the site cough) I should understand before they post their judgments and opinions.
On July 23 2011 08:32 CellTech wrote: So basically from what I read.
TSL's sponsorship (and basically life of the team) depends on results. EG steals their best player, results not as good, TSL is in danger of folding.
If TSL does end up going under I will put all the blame solely on Geoff. I know he doesn't deserve it, but if he wasn't so crap maybe they wouldn't need Puma.
Lol get off your high horse.
Any foreign team able to afford it would take him in a heartbeat.
I don't really have much to say on the matters of Puma leaving TSL. If he feels that leaving TSL is the way to go for him, then all the power to him. I hope to see him more in future tournaments.
Respects to SangHo and Clide for sticking with TSL and even providing financial support by returning their stipends/salaries to help TSL stay put. I really like seeing this kind of character and I hope their dedications and loyalty to the team pays off big in the future.
As for everyone seeing EG as a evil company, EG may have made offers to Korean players, but in the end it is the players that makes the decision. It's not like EG forced PuMa to the team or anything like that. They simply asked, and PuMa responded. If you are truly angry about PuMa leaving TSL, then get mad at PuMa, EG has done nothing wrong.
I don't really understand what people think is keeping Puma on TSL when they don't..pay him. He's good, he's very, very good. And they don't pay him.
I don't understand how the reaction is: "Wow the people that took him are assholes!", when the reality of the situation is the people that he left clearly didn't respect his talent or ability and he left for people who do. Why is that not a good thing for everyone but TSL and why are people caring much for TSL at all at this point?
From what I understand, every great player has left them. This makes four. This isn't an isolated incident, clearly something is going on that would result in four people leaving the team in such a small period of time.
Other players were made offers by "foreign" teams (really, can we stop saying foreign when referring to ourselves in our own country?) in TSL and they didn't accept. They likely didn't accept because their offers weren't very good, otherwise they'd be gone. If they stayed out of some fanciful pride of team loyalty, they aren't taking their career very seriously. The idea is to move up and get better, not sit and stagnate.
On July 23 2011 08:32 CellTech wrote: So basically from what I read.
TSL's sponsorship (and basically life of the team) depends on results. EG steals their best player, results not as good, TSL is in danger of folding.
If TSL does end up going under I will put all the blame solely on Geoff. I know he doesn't deserve it, but if he wasn't so crap maybe they wouldn't need Puma.
Lol get off your high horse.
Any foreign team able to afford it would take him in a heartbeat.
At least he knows he's being irrational about it?
Look, I know intellectually that all parties involved (TSL, EG, and Puma) deserve an equal portion of the blame. This "scandal," so to speak, is just a classic case of miscommunication, IMHO. Knowing this doesn't really stop me from having a knee-jerk reaction to EG, though, especially after AG's PR travesty. Whether or not you agree with AG doesn't really change the fact that what he said on air was absolutely stupid. He knows most of the viewers come from TL, and it was kind of like watching a train wreck at the end. He can certainly speak well, but it was like he didn't have a survival instinct. Hilarious, but not very good for EG's image.
On July 23 2011 08:28 DBOWNIZZ wrote: PuMa has his own decision, PuMa has his own life. PuMa was not OWNED by TSL or anyone else. Maybe PuMa WANTS to make a a good salary to play sc2. Maybe PuMa WANTED to change teams??
Don't try to make EG look bad because of the miscomunication issues between the players and coaches.
On July 23 2011 08:23 pyaar wrote: big respect for Clide, SangHo and Coach Lee, not so much for EG and to a lesser degree PuMa.
Seriously, what's wrong with all of you? What fanciful unicorn utopia do you all live in where one team acquiring a player from another team is considered disrespectful?
Where was all of the hate for Sheth or QXC when they left ROOT for money? Why is it alright for that to occur, for FXO to speak only to Sheth or QXC about joining them, without speaking to Catz and Drewbie, and letting Sheth and QXC talk to their teams individually to sort the issue out, but because Puma is Korean and Lee went out of his way to demonize EG this is suddenly a big deal?
Why is that?
Do you recognize the inconsistency in the reaction from the community based on who it's happening to and not the actual issue itself?
I have a lot of respect for Coach Lee and the remaining players of TSL, especially Clide and SangHo for not telling the coach of their many offered deals and donating their salary to the team. TSL is a great team of players, dedicated to SC2 and e-sports, who want the community to flourish. I wish TSL the best of luck in the future, and hope their problems will be solved.
The question is, why was Coach Lee in charge of negotiations with EG? Does TSL not have a manager/CEO? Just like how Sir Scoots didn't handle negotiations for EG, there's no reason a coach should handle player situations other than play. No wonder he got hosed.
On July 23 2011 08:43 Kich wrote: I don't really understand what people think is keeping Puma on TSL when they don't..pay him. He's good, he's very, very good. And they don't pay him.
I don't understand how the reaction is: "Wow the people that took him are assholes!", when the reality of the situation is the people that he left clearly didn't respect his talent or ability and he left for people who do. Why is that not a good thing for everyone but TSL and why are people caring much for TSL at all at this point?
From what I understand, every great player has left them. This makes four. This isn't an isolated incident, clearly something is going on that would result in four people leaving the team in such a small period of time.
Other players were made offers by "foreign" teams (really, can we stop saying foreign when referring to ourselves in our own country?) in TSL and they didn't accept. They likely didn't accept because their offers weren't very good, otherwise they'd be gone. If they stayed out of some fanciful pride of team loyalty, they aren't taking their career very seriously. The idea is to move up and get better, not sit and stagnate.
Just because he's not getting paid doesn't mean he isn't getting anything.
They give him a free place to live with some of the best SC2 players in the world for practice partners with the sole purpose of getting him better. They give him food to eat, they pay for all of his needs. Just because he doesn't have a monthly salary doesn't mean he doesn't get anything.
TSL is a huge part in why he is where he is. You can say TSL lost some of their best players but that isn't the case. What has FD or Tester done recently? Nothing, them leaving isn't as big of a hit to TSL as PuMa being stolen.
FD and Tester left, but at the same time you have SangHo and Clide giving their salaries back to TSL to help the team. What does that say? Surely if TSL wasn't treating their players right that kind of thing wouldn't happen.
This is why I think it was such a shady move by EG, when you have a team like TSL who is trying to make SC2 in Korea as big as SC1, they are giving a house, practice partners, food, exposure, etc to players like PuMa and EG doesn't even have the courtesy to talk to the team? You don't hand out a card saying "we'd like to sign you" to the player, you talk to the team's management first.
Even if PuMa says that he wants to talk to his team and not EG, it's still EG who contacted the player FIRST. That's shady and not how business should be done. They have a history of doing it in the past and they don't give a shit. At the end of the day they are gonna get PuMa signed and everyone's gonna forget about it until they do something shady again.
Has Puma made a comment on this whole situation yet? Seems to me like the whole ordeal and mis-understanding was caused by him in the first place.
Sounds to me like EG went up to Puma and said "hey we have been working on a format to get some korean players on our team and we'd like to have you be the first would you be interested? You will get salary pay on top of tournament arrangements, if that sounds interesting we'd love to have you"
Then Puma I'm assuming liked the deal and from what I've heard from EG decided it would be best if he (puma) went to talk to his coach about it instead of someone from EG since Puma actually knew the coach.
Seems like the whole ordeal was caused by Puma like i said in the beginning. I would really love to hear is perspective on this whole thing since EG and TSL will obviously both have their bias.
On July 23 2011 08:50 kakaman wrote: The question is, why was Coach Lee in charge of negotiations with EG? Does TSL not have a manager/CEO? Just like how Sir Scoots didn't handle negotiations for EG, there's no reason a coach should handle player situations other than play. No wonder he got hosed.
But EG didn't approach anyone except PuMa. And I think Coach Lee is in charge of that anyways, I think the term Coach is more of a manager in his case. But either way, no one from TSL other than PuMa was approached by EG.
I am sure you tried to keep him from leaving. What kind of conversation have you two had during this whole process? That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams. I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this, but he was adamant that he would be able to live through this negativity. He felt bad about his decision and told us that he knew a lot about the team (EG) already. Since we are bound to run into each other again in the future, we decided to part ways amicably.
This really gets me into a rage...
There wouldn't have been a fraction of the "negativity" that has occurred if Lee hadn't immediately started giving his sob story about how "the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", and painting EG as some big evil corporation etc. Then he goes on talking about players giving him back their salaries and stipends to seal the sympathy vote.
If you truly care for your players, then you'll be happy for them when they find a better situation for themselves, and grateful to the people who provided it. It makes me wonder if he even believes it himself.
I don't know what makes me more sick, Coach Lee's statements about the situation, or the majority of the communities reaction to it.
I ponder if you would do differently and be all quiet about it, I know I wouldn't, it makes me wonder if you even believe yourself.
I'm too cynical to ever find myself in such a situation, so I honestly couldn't tell you. In the end, we're all just armchair analysts who can't do more than speculate (unless you can read minds; I know I can't). I just know that the whole situation reminds me of Fox News with the way so many are positively eating up the spin that was put on this story (Coach Lee's spin, that is), and not thinking critically.
Maybe I would be pissed. Maybe there are even more reasons for him to be pissed than we even know about (I could picture them getting some juicy sponsorship offers after Puma's performance in NASL, which may have even brought them out of the hole [/speculate]), but if I truly cared for the players the way Lee says he does, I would keep my mouth shut so this shitstorm wouldn't consume "the player I raised". His affection seems pretty shallow to me; approximately as deep as his wallet, apparently.
On July 23 2011 08:50 kakaman wrote: The question is, why was Coach Lee in charge of negotiations with EG? Does TSL not have a manager/CEO? Just like how Sir Scoots didn't handle negotiations for EG, there's no reason a coach should handle player situations other than play. No wonder he got hosed.
But EG didn't approach anyone except PuMa. And I think Coach Lee is in charge of that anyways, I think the term Coach is more of a manager in his case. But either way, no one from TSL other than PuMa was approached by EG.
Sure but I think if you had a more saavy leader on the business side, he would try to perhaps draft a contract with Puma (since he still hasn't signed with EG yet), with a buyout clause. At least that way they get something in return rather than going empty handed in the buyout. Coach Lee keeps talking about losing sponsors and the difficulty securing money, I can't imagine a more seasoned businessman getting hosed like this.
I am sure you tried to keep him from leaving. What kind of conversation have you two had during this whole process? That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams. I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this, but he was adamant that he would be able to live through this negativity. He felt bad about his decision and told us that he knew a lot about the team (EG) already. Since we are bound to run into each other again in the future, we decided to part ways amicably.
This really gets me into a rage...
There wouldn't have been a fraction of the "negativity" that has occurred if Lee hadn't immediately started giving his sob story about how "the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", and painting EG as some big evil corporation etc. Then he goes on talking about players giving him back their salaries and stipends to seal the sympathy vote.
If you truly care for your players, then you'll be happy for them when they find a better situation for themselves, and grateful to the people who provided it. It makes me wonder if he even believes it himself.
I don't know what makes me more sick, Coach Lee's statements about the situation, or the majority of the communities reaction to it.
I ponder if you would do differently and be all quiet about it, I know I wouldn't, it makes me wonder if you even believe yourself.
I'm too cynical to ever find myself in such a situation, so I honestly couldn't tell you. In the end, we're all just armchair analysts who can't do more than speculate (unless you can read minds; I know I can't). I just know that the whole situation reminds me of Fox News with the way so many are positively eating up the spin that was put on this story (Coach Lee's spin, that is), and not thinking critically.
Maybe I would be pissed. Maybe there are even more reasons for him to be pissed than we even know about (I could picture them getting some juicy sponsorship offers after Puma's performance in NASL, which may have even brought them out of the hole [/speculate]), but if I truly cared for the players the way Lee says he does, I would keep my mouth shut so this shitstorm wouldn't consume "the player I raised". His affection seems pretty shallow to me; approximately as deep as his wallet, apparently.
Unlike many, I'm going to have reasonable expectations about humans and recognize that they're that - human. It's perfectly reasonable for him to be emotionally upset and a sense of betrayal after Puma leaves. This isn't some cultural analysis - it's a freaking universal understanding of team membership and friendship that is cultivated by participation in a team. And before you go "but no betrayal, there was no contract!" - you don't need a contract to have a relationship, you don't contract any of your friends but it's obvious that you can feel betrayed when friends suddenly ditch you, for instance.
On July 23 2011 08:50 kakaman wrote: The question is, why was Coach Lee in charge of negotiations with EG? Does TSL not have a manager/CEO? Just like how Sir Scoots didn't handle negotiations for EG, there's no reason a coach should handle player situations other than play. No wonder he got hosed.
But EG didn't approach anyone except PuMa. And I think Coach Lee is in charge of that anyways, I think the term Coach is more of a manager in his case. But either way, no one from TSL other than PuMa was approached by EG.
Sure but I think if you had a more saavy leader on the business side, he would try to perhaps draft a contract with Puma (since he still hasn't signed with EG yet), with a buyout clause. At least that way they get something in return rather than going empty handed in the buyout. Coach Lee keeps talking about losing sponsors and the difficulty securing money, I can't imagine a more seasoned businessman getting hosed like this.
Well a lot of it has to do with SC2 in Korea not being near the size of SC1. When you have such a competitor for sponsors in Korea it must be hard. Why would a sponsor want to sponsor an SC2 team over an SC1 team in Korea? It seems most teams are having trouble and that's why you see things like FXO buying out fOu.
On July 23 2011 08:43 Kich wrote: I don't really understand what people think is keeping Puma on TSL when they don't..pay him. He's good, he's very, very good. And they don't pay him.
I don't understand how the reaction is: "Wow the people that took him are assholes!", when the reality of the situation is the people that he left clearly didn't respect his talent or ability and he left for people who do. Why is that not a good thing for everyone but TSL and why are people caring much for TSL at all at this point?
From what I understand, every great player has left them. This makes four. This isn't an isolated incident, clearly something is going on that would result in four people leaving the team in such a small period of time.
Other players were made offers by "foreign" teams (really, can we stop saying foreign when referring to ourselves in our own country?) in TSL and they didn't accept. They likely didn't accept because their offers weren't very good, otherwise they'd be gone. If they stayed out of some fanciful pride of team loyalty, they aren't taking their career very seriously. The idea is to move up and get better, not sit and stagnate.
This is why I think it was such a shady move by EG, when you have a team like TSL who is trying to make SC2 in Korea as big as SC1, they are giving a house, practice partners, food, exposure, etc to players like PuMa and EG doesn't even have the courtesy to talk to the team? You don't hand out a card saying "we'd like to sign you" to the player, you talk to the team's management first.
But that's kind of the issue, you don't talk to the team's management first. If anything, that would actually be insulting. You would all have the exact same reaction if Coach Lee publicly got pissed that they didn't even talk to Puma first.
Because really, that's exactly WHAT you do and that's exactly what has been being done. You approach the player and tell them you'd like to sign them and that player decides what to do.
You don't get a job offer from your own boss from some other company that contacted your boss, you get a job offer directly from that company and you give your 2 weeks and move on.
Like I mentioned before--where was this massive public outcry when Sheth and QXC left ROOT? When FXO did not ask Catz and Drewbie's permission to buy out their players, Sheth and QXC left on their own terms in their own ways. Why is that not objectionable but because wise-old Mister Miyagi is losing his Karate Kid over the exact same thing this is suddenly a huge fucking deal?
On July 23 2011 08:50 kakaman wrote: The question is, why was Coach Lee in charge of negotiations with EG? Does TSL not have a manager/CEO? Just like how Sir Scoots didn't handle negotiations for EG, there's no reason a coach should handle player situations other than play. No wonder he got hosed.
But EG didn't approach anyone except PuMa. And I think Coach Lee is in charge of that anyways, I think the term Coach is more of a manager in his case. But either way, no one from TSL other than PuMa was approached by EG.
You don't approach other people than the player when they have no contract to follow because it's assumed they are able to do what they want without outside permission.
On July 23 2011 07:26 sleepyhorse wrote: ...this is just stupid. Puma was not a signed player. EG offered him something that his old team could not. It would have been a horrible decision if Puma let the offer pass. Lee can only blame himself for not contracting his players. There is a reason why all of his top players have left the team. I just cant wrap my brain around people getting all worked up over this. This is a business and the managers and fans need to understand that. Also the players need to be thought of as individuals and not team property. EG didn't "steal" anything from TSL, the player made the decision to leave in order to better his career. I am happy for both Puma and EG and I hope TSL can get back on track and continue to be a competitive starcraft 2 team.
The reason some people are getting worked up over this is because they don't understand business, TSL included. If you don't have a guy on contract, you should expect him to leave when he is given a better offer. This is how the world is guys, wake up!
Also, TSL needs to stop embarrassing themselves by whining and pointing fingers. They know why they are losing players. If they don't then their demise was inevitable.
On July 23 2011 08:43 Kich wrote: I don't really understand what people think is keeping Puma on TSL when they don't..pay him. He's good, he's very, very good. And they don't pay him.
I don't understand how the reaction is: "Wow the people that took him are assholes!", when the reality of the situation is the people that he left clearly didn't respect his talent or ability and he left for people who do. Why is that not a good thing for everyone but TSL and why are people caring much for TSL at all at this point?
From what I understand, every great player has left them. This makes four. This isn't an isolated incident, clearly something is going on that would result in four people leaving the team in such a small period of time.
Other players were made offers by "foreign" teams (really, can we stop saying foreign when referring to ourselves in our own country?) in TSL and they didn't accept. They likely didn't accept because their offers weren't very good, otherwise they'd be gone. If they stayed out of some fanciful pride of team loyalty, they aren't taking their career very seriously. The idea is to move up and get better, not sit and stagnate.
This is why I think it was such a shady move by EG, when you have a team like TSL who is trying to make SC2 in Korea as big as SC1, they are giving a house, practice partners, food, exposure, etc to players like PuMa and EG doesn't even have the courtesy to talk to the team? You don't hand out a card saying "we'd like to sign you" to the player, you talk to the team's management first.
But that's kind of the issue, you don't talk to the team's management first. If anything, that would actually be insulting. You would all have the exact same reaction if Coach Lee publicly got pissed that they didn't even talk to Puma first.
Because really, that's exactly WHAT you do and that's exactly what has been being done. You approach the player and tell them you'd like to sign them and that player decides what to do.
You don't get a job offer from your own boss from some other company that contacted your boss, you get a job offer directly from that company and you give your 2 weeks and move on.
Like I mentioned before--where was this massive public outcry when Sheth and QXC left ROOT? When FXO did not ask Catz and Drewbie's permission to buy out their players, Sheth and QXC left on their own terms in their own ways. Why is that not objectionable but because wise-old Mister Miyagi is losing his Karate Kid over the exact same thing this is suddenly a huge fucking deal?
Thank you so much for this post. SC2 players are employees of their teams, and their teams are the employer.
On July 23 2011 08:43 Kich wrote: I don't really understand what people think is keeping Puma on TSL when they don't..pay him. He's good, he's very, very good. And they don't pay him.
I don't understand how the reaction is: "Wow the people that took him are assholes!", when the reality of the situation is the people that he left clearly didn't respect his talent or ability and he left for people who do. Why is that not a good thing for everyone but TSL and why are people caring much for TSL at all at this point?
From what I understand, every great player has left them. This makes four. This isn't an isolated incident, clearly something is going on that would result in four people leaving the team in such a small period of time.
Other players were made offers by "foreign" teams (really, can we stop saying foreign when referring to ourselves in our own country?) in TSL and they didn't accept. They likely didn't accept because their offers weren't very good, otherwise they'd be gone. If they stayed out of some fanciful pride of team loyalty, they aren't taking their career very seriously. The idea is to move up and get better, not sit and stagnate.
This is why I think it was such a shady move by EG, when you have a team like TSL who is trying to make SC2 in Korea as big as SC1, they are giving a house, practice partners, food, exposure, etc to players like PuMa and EG doesn't even have the courtesy to talk to the team? You don't hand out a card saying "we'd like to sign you" to the player, you talk to the team's management first.
But that's kind of the issue, you don't talk to the team's management first. If anything, that would actually be insulting. You would all have the exact same reaction if Coach Lee publicly got pissed that they didn't even talk to Puma first.
Because really, that's exactly WHAT you do and that's exactly what has been being done. You approach the player and tell them you'd like to sign them and that player decides what to do.
You don't get a job offer from your own boss from some other company that contacted your boss, you get a job offer directly from that company and you give your 2 weeks and move on.
Like I mentioned before--where was this massive public outcry when Sheth and QXC left ROOT? When FXO did not ask Catz and Drewbie's permission to buy out their players, Sheth and QXC left on their own terms in their own ways. Why is that not objectionable but because wise-old Mister Miyagi is losing his Karate Kid over the exact same thing this is suddenly a huge fucking deal?
Thank you so much for this post. SC2 players are employees of their teams, and their teams are the employer.
Come on guys, really...
I'm sorry, I can't figure out if you were being sarcastic with me or not--because that is accurate. The players are employed by their teams.
I feel bad for TSL and the Korean side of things. The EG handled this in an awful way, Best of luck to TSL and Puma I hope all goes well for them.
I'm sure the Korean SC2 association is going to put a stop to this. I thought they put a stop to pros streaming and I still see pros streaming which is kind of weird.
On July 23 2011 09:36 NuKedUFirst wrote: I feel bad for TSL and the Korean side of things. The EG handled this in an awful way, Best of luck to TSL and Puma I hope all goes well for them.
I'm sure the Korean SC2 association is going to put a stop to this. I thought they put a stop to pros streaming and I still see pros streaming which is kind of weird.
what makes you think they put a stop to pro's streaming? if so thats such bullshit as I love watching the korean pro's stream.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
Yes, they treat one another like extended family. There is more meaning there.
KeSPA is going to have a really hard time turning SC2 around once they get involved. Blizzard handled the product very poorly there.
Before this thread I was thinking about how hard Code B, Code A, etc is and how it'd be neat if there was another big league. What... if... KeSPA helped out (they're kind of cool with Blizzard now sort of >.>)?
KeSPA and GOMTV team up! No seriously someone should tell Blizzard to allow and tell KeSPA to set up a SC2 league or something.
I agree I feel the SC2 scene is too small in Korea with only one major tournament and with BW competing with SC2 but I think they can still coexist (just like two different sports on TV).
I find it hilarious that people are all d'awwing over this terrible "boohoo pity us poor TSL victims" sob story when instead Coach Lee should be apologizing for causing all this controversy cause he was mad and did something incredibly unprofessional. No wonder their team is going down the shitter.
While I think it was very unprofessional and 'a dick move' on the part of EG and PuMa, I understand that money talks and this is how business operates.
I can understand Coach Lee's frustration but in the end, Money is king dude. Sad fact of life.
i don't get why some people are aiming at EG's players, they have nothing to do with it, its the management and the people in charge of the team if anyone is to be blamed for this
I am sure you tried to keep him from leaving. What kind of conversation have you two had during this whole process? That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams. I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this, but he was adamant that he would be able to live through this negativity. He felt bad about his decision and told us that he knew a lot about the team (EG) already. Since we are bound to run into each other again in the future, we decided to part ways amicably.
This really gets me into a rage...
There wouldn't have been a fraction of the "negativity" that has occurred if Lee hadn't immediately started giving his sob story about how "the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", and painting EG as some big evil corporation etc. Then he goes on talking about players giving him back their salaries and stipends to seal the sympathy vote.
If you truly care for your players, then you'll be happy for them when they find a better situation for themselves, and grateful to the people who provided it. It makes me wonder if he even believes it himself.
I don't know what makes me more sick, Coach Lee's statements about the situation, or the majority of the communities reaction to it.
I ponder if you would do differently and be all quiet about it, I know I wouldn't, it makes me wonder if you even believe yourself.
I'm too cynical to ever find myself in such a situation, so I honestly couldn't tell you. In the end, we're all just armchair analysts who can't do more than speculate (unless you can read minds; I know I can't). I just know that the whole situation reminds me of Fox News with the way so many are positively eating up the spin that was put on this story (Coach Lee's spin, that is), and not thinking critically.
Maybe I would be pissed. Maybe there are even more reasons for him to be pissed than we even know about (I could picture them getting some juicy sponsorship offers after Puma's performance in NASL, which may have even brought them out of the hole [/speculate]), but if I truly cared for the players the way Lee says he does, I would keep my mouth shut so this shitstorm wouldn't consume "the player I raised". His affection seems pretty shallow to me; approximately as deep as his wallet, apparently.
Unlike many, I'm going to have reasonable expectations about humans and recognize that they're that - human. It's perfectly reasonable for him to be emotionally upset and a sense of betrayal after Puma leaves. This isn't some cultural analysis - it's a freaking universal understanding of team membership and friendship that is cultivated by participation in a team. And before you go "but no betrayal, there was no contract!" - you don't need a contract to have a relationship, you don't contract any of your friends but it's obvious that you can feel betrayed when friends suddenly ditch you, for instance.
You're assuming an awful lot about human nature. The stories and articles about people giving up opportunities and making sacrifices for their teams and friends make headlines and the Silver Screen because they aren't the norm. For every guy in a platoon that jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, there are a dozen or more that didn't (and likely countless platoons where NOBODY did where everyone just got a body full of shrapnel).
There are too many separate issues regarding this situation, and people are getting them all mixed up. Here are the issues I can come up with, and the conclusion I've personally reached about them:
1. Was it wrong for Puma to leave TSL?
My answer is no. There is nothing wrong with trying to better your own situation. If you find a better job, nobody can blame you for taking it, even if you've been with your current company for years. It's not betrayal, and that has nothing to do with contracts. You can be friends with people without being on the same team.
2. Was EG's method of acquiring Puma dirty or underhanded?
After hearing Alex's explanation of what transpired on his end, I don't think they did anything "wrong". I'm not even sure they made a mistake. They had no way of knowing that Puma would wait so long to talk to Coach Lee about it (I believe it was said that EG approached Puma when he made it to the Ro4, NOT after he won, and he didn't say anything till after GSTL.), and they were NOT obligated to talk to Coach Lee themselves (and perhaps didn't realize that they should have, though I'm not sure on that part). Puma supposedly wanted to break the news to Lee himself, and EG obliged him. If it was a mistake, then lesson learned. They now know for next time. I don't see anything here that screams "Big Evil Corporation nomnomnom!"
3. Was EG's (Alex's) reaction to this publicity correct?
I think everyone agrees that it was handled very poorly. He was late to field a response, and when he finally did, in a medium that was probably the very best possible scenario to make things clear, he digressed to a subject that really should have been saved for another time. He shot himself in the foot on the home stretch of what would have otherwise been as good a recovery as he could have hoped for.
4. Is TSL's situation a sad sad story?
It sure is. Losing players left and right. Having trouble keeping sponsors and quickly running out of money. Your first big tournament result is followed by some unfortunate news. It's like they were finally on an upswing, and they hit a brick wall. It really is tragic, but one thing I know is that the source of their misfortune is not Puma, and it isn't EG. Lee's coaching has been called into question. TSL's skill level may be to blame. Perhaps it's the Korean SC2 scene in general that is the core of their problems. Or maybe a hundred other things that none of us have any clue about. Coach Lee and TSL are doing an excellent job of painting themselves as the victims, and maybe they think they are, but when I see stories of the players giving back their salaries and stipends to help a faltering team, I don't get all warm and fuzzy inside, and I don't see heroes in the making; I see naive kids who don't know the value of themselves and their money, and incompetent adults who have to be bailed out by their charges.
On July 23 2011 10:21 LastDance wrote: I think Blizzard needs to wake up and realise their strict licensing of SC2 in Korea is stunting its growth tremendously.
mad respect to SangHo and Clide.
Agreed. One league (where competition is just huge with only 32 players getting much out of it) is just too little.
Blizzard, KeSPA, and GOMTV need to all team up and work together (KeSPA may be willing to host an SC2 league if Blizzard allows them to and helps sponsor the prize money). No really KeSPA isn't that bad >.>.
I hope that this means everything is calming down as I really don't think that EG are all a bunch of money hungry aholes. This is just a learning experience for Koreans that they need to have agreements in writing because that is the only way to guarantee that you keep a player.
I feel bad that TSL is hurting for money but that is life, things happen, survival of the fittest. I hope TSL can continue to field a team and compete, but they aren't the victims here. Granted from now on I think that all teams will discuss with Korean teams about players, possibly still after talking to the player. EG could've handled the PR a little better, by instead of appearing on WoC and just preparing a statement by the heads of the team to explain their situation calmly.
All-in-all this is a learning experience and everyone will go forward knowing how to deal with these situations in the future to prevent a total meltdown of an excessively excitable community with a great deal of passion ready to burn first and ask questions later. I think what we should take away from this is that cooler heads will prevail and that speaking out of emotion although fun can lead to a total disaster.
In all professional sports you cannot just go to a player of another team and simply ask him to leave his team without working out some sort of deal. i think it is a HUGE mistake that any team doesnt contract its players. People need to start taking eSports seriously.
and i couldn't care less how anyone words what happened, but personally i have lost all respect for Puma and EG because of the underhanded way they handled the situation. and i think Puma will eventually realise how much of a mistake he made.
On July 23 2011 10:45 Herry wrote: In all professional sports you cannot just go to a player of another team and simply ask him to leave his team without working out some sort of deal. i think it is a HUGE mistake that any team doesnt contract its players. People need to start taking eSports seriously.
and i couldn't care less how anyone words what happened, but personally i have lost all respect for Puma and EG because of the underhanded way they handled the situation. and i think Puma will eventually realise how much of a mistake he made.
If I'm not mistaken, on Weapon of Choice EG explained that had Puma been contracted this would have been different. A deal would have been made in that situation.
However, if you've lost all respect for Puma and EG, you'd have to also lose respect for Reign, FXO, Dignitas, Complexity, etc. etc.. Or rather, every single team in existence.
How do you think they got the players they have.
I'd like to point out again that, this is how this goes. When FXO got Sheth and QXC, they didn't speak to ROOT, they let Sheth and QXC speak to ROOT themselves.
Can we mark Sheth, QXC, and FXO on your "no respect" list? Have Sheth and QXC realized the mistakes they've made or are they still on their way to figuring that out?
On July 23 2011 10:45 Herry wrote: In all professional sports you cannot just go to a player of another team and simply ask him to leave his team without working out some sort of deal. i think it is a HUGE mistake that any team doesnt contract its players. People need to start taking eSports seriously.
and i couldn't care less how anyone words what happened, but personally i have lost all respect for Puma and EG because of the underhanded way they handled the situation. and i think Puma will eventually realise how much of a mistake he made.
means no matter what the involved people tell you how things really went, you decide to "loose all respect" for PumA and EG? fair enough
And how do you propose we solve this? Our team’s mission has always been to promote the growth and popularity of Starcraft 2. We have published video tutorials and training videos for beginners, and so far, our first video received about 20,000 hits. We even purchased HD equipments to provide the viewers with quality content.
Funny because i actually translated this myself and i realized how i need to brush up on my korean and it does consume so mcuh time to translate. this translation turn out much better than mine and i now appreciate how much time and work that goes onto translating. anyway, this article gives some insight. i like it GO TSL fighting
I am sure you tried to keep him from leaving. What kind of conversation have you two had during this whole process? That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams. I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this, but he was adamant that he would be able to live through this negativity. He felt bad about his decision and told us that he knew a lot about the team (EG) already. Since we are bound to run into each other again in the future, we decided to part ways amicably.
This really gets me into a rage...
There wouldn't have been a fraction of the "negativity" that has occurred if Lee hadn't immediately started giving his sob story about how "the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", and painting EG as some big evil corporation etc. Then he goes on talking about players giving him back their salaries and stipends to seal the sympathy vote.
If you truly care for your players, then you'll be happy for them when they find a better situation for themselves, and grateful to the people who provided it. It makes me wonder if he even believes it himself.
I don't know what makes me more sick, Coach Lee's statements about the situation, or the majority of the communities reaction to it.
I ponder if you would do differently and be all quiet about it, I know I wouldn't, it makes me wonder if you even believe yourself.
I'm too cynical to ever find myself in such a situation, so I honestly couldn't tell you. In the end, we're all just armchair analysts who can't do more than speculate (unless you can read minds; I know I can't). I just know that the whole situation reminds me of Fox News with the way so many are positively eating up the spin that was put on this story (Coach Lee's spin, that is), and not thinking critically.
Maybe I would be pissed. Maybe there are even more reasons for him to be pissed than we even know about (I could picture them getting some juicy sponsorship offers after Puma's performance in NASL, which may have even brought them out of the hole [/speculate]), but if I truly cared for the players the way Lee says he does, I would keep my mouth shut so this shitstorm wouldn't consume "the player I raised". His affection seems pretty shallow to me; approximately as deep as his wallet, apparently.
Unlike many, I'm going to have reasonable expectations about humans and recognize that they're that - human. It's perfectly reasonable for him to be emotionally upset and a sense of betrayal after Puma leaves. This isn't some cultural analysis - it's a freaking universal understanding of team membership and friendship that is cultivated by participation in a team. And before you go "but no betrayal, there was no contract!" - you don't need a contract to have a relationship, you don't contract any of your friends but it's obvious that you can feel betrayed when friends suddenly ditch you, for instance.
You're assuming an awful lot about human nature. The stories and articles about people giving up opportunities and making sacrifices for their teams and friends make headlines and the Silver Screen because they aren't the norm. For every guy in a platoon that jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, there are a dozen or more that didn't (and likely countless platoons where NOBODY did where everyone just got a body full of shrapnel).
There are too many separate issues regarding this situation, and people are getting them all mixed up. Here are the issues I can come up with, and the conclusion I've personally reached about them:
1. Was it wrong for Puma to leave TSL?
My answer is no. There is nothing wrong with trying to better your own situation. If you find a better job, nobody can blame you for taking it, even if you've been with your current company for years. It's not betrayal, and that has nothing to do with contracts. You can be friends with people without being on the same team.
2. Was EG's method of acquiring Puma dirty or underhanded?
After hearing Alex's explanation of what transpired on his end, I don't think they did anything "wrong". I'm not even sure they made a mistake. They had no way of knowing that Puma would wait so long to talk to Coach Lee about it (I believe it was said that EG approached Puma when he made it to the Ro4, NOT after he won, and he didn't say anything till after GSTL.), and they were NOT obligated to talk to Coach Lee themselves (and perhaps didn't realize that they should have, though I'm not sure on that part). Puma supposedly wanted to break the news to Lee himself, and EG obliged him. If it was a mistake, then lesson learned. They now know for next time. I don't see anything here that screams "Big Evil Corporation nomnomnom!"
3. Was EG's (Alex's) reaction to this publicity correct?
I think everyone agrees that it was handled very poorly. He was late to field a response, and when he finally did, in a medium that was probably the very best possible scenario to make things clear, he digressed to a subject that really should have been saved for another time. He shot himself in the foot on the home stretch of what would have otherwise been as good a recovery as he could have hoped for.
4. Is TSL's situation a sad sad story?
It sure is. Losing players left and right. Having trouble keeping sponsors and quickly running out of money. Your first big tournament result is followed by some unfortunate news. It's like they were finally on an upswing, and they hit a brick wall. It really is tragic, but one thing I know is that the source of their misfortune is not Puma, and it isn't EG. Lee's coaching has been called into question. TSL's skill level may be to blame. Perhaps it's the Korean SC2 scene in general that is the core of their problems. Or maybe a hundred other things that none of us have any clue about. Coach Lee and TSL are doing an excellent job of painting themselves as the victims, and maybe they think they are, but when I see stories of the players giving back their salaries and stipends to help a faltering team, I don't get all warm and fuzzy inside, and I don't see heroes in the making; I see naive kids who don't know the value of themselves and their money, and incompetent adults who have to be bailed out by their charges.
I don't understand the need for drama here Puma leave TSL because he thinks there are more opportunity abroad and ideally you would want a team that is based overseas for this.
He has been the practice partner for the like of Flash but have not had many success in the Korean league then he went to the NASL and see how many people is there to watch and cheer him.
Personally i don't agree with this because it might affect his performance as a player (even MC has said that going abroad to attend many foreign tournament has deteriorate his skill overall due to lack of practice with Koreans.
That being said I wish him the best of luck and more tournament wins to come.
PS. for all of you sour grapes who blame EG players please stop being ignorant , its not EG players decision to recruit Puma.
On July 23 2011 10:21 LastDance wrote: I think Blizzard needs to wake up and realise their strict licensing of SC2 in Korea is stunting its growth tremendously.
mad respect to SangHo and Clide.
Agreed. One league (where competition is just huge with only 32 players getting much out of it) is just too little.
Blizzard, KeSPA, and GOMTV need to all team up and work together (KeSPA may be willing to host an SC2 league if Blizzard allows them to and helps sponsor the prize money). No really KeSPA isn't that bad >.>.
KeSPA would need to change a bit though in terms of how they deal with players, because SC2 pros are not used to, and probably do not want such a strict and controlling overseer. Would KeSPA do that?
Big ups to Clide and SangHo. Down votes to the management at EG.
Also, shouldn't Puma be financially set for at least a little while with his $50K from NASL? Still wish him the best of luck in the future, though. He's an exciting player to watch.
On July 23 2011 10:45 Herry wrote: In all professional sports you cannot just go to a player of another team and simply ask him to leave his team without working out some sort of deal. i think it is a HUGE mistake that any team doesnt contract its players. People need to start taking eSports seriously.
and i couldn't care less how anyone words what happened, but personally i have lost all respect for Puma and EG because of the underhanded way they handled the situation. and i think Puma will eventually realise how much of a mistake he made.
How was it handled 'underhandedly' when Puma didn't even have a contract, that means he had no professional obligation to TSL. Also consider that playing in the NASL was the first time that Puma had played in a foreign tournament, and he didn't have a salary you can see this guy wasn't given the opportunities that he deserved. I say good for him, hopefully his being in EG will give him more chances to prove himself.
Are you serious!? Why is he so disappointed that his player is going to a new team? He should've been supportive OF HIS YOUNG PLAYER, not making him feel bad when the kid's been visibly stressed for days.
e: " SangHo and Clide were worried and it came to light that they were also approached similarly in the past."
wow that is o_O from EG or..? This would be very misleading if it was not from EG.
Puma is just doing what he feels is right. Coach Lee even said Puma thinks he will stand a better chance in the foreign scene. Of course he was distressed, it's that feeling you get when you quit a job that you really don't want to except theres another with more potential hiring.
Anything else about going behind so and so's back, or when you can or cant talk to someone who is not under contract, is just soap opera drama and needs to be ignored as such.
Get a few wins under your belt and the next headline news interview will have everyone saying you made the perfect decision.
Just wanted to say that for all the people linking the Gotfrag article regarding EG signing the former CoL players that it's foolish to bring up old drama like that without really knowing the whole story. I have personally talked with EG's CS team about that whole incident and there were MANY underlying issues which lead them to want to leave CoL regardless of if it were EG signing them or not.
One of EG's CS players even told me that Jason Lake would get drunk at events and berate the players for bad performances if they didn't win, and that he was even a violent drunk and went so far as hitting one of the players while intoxicated. I've been involved in e-sports for a long time and there's always a second side to every story. It benefits TSL's coach to do interviews like this as damage control, and place the blame on the shoulders of EG for Puma leaving when in reality in my experience 99% of the time when someone leaves an organization they were already not happy with it BEFORE they even got an offer from another team. Whether it's internal strife, not liking other players on the team, the coaches habits, the lack of sponsor support or other things Puma must have already been thinking of joining another team before EG's proposal or he likely would've shut them down as the other TSL players did with their offers.
I think the whole portrayal of EG as some sinister organization going behind peoples backs to steal their players is ridiculous as in my experience it's one of maybe 5 organizations in the world who actually honor their contracts, and support their players properly.
On July 23 2011 10:21 LastDance wrote: I think Blizzard needs to wake up and realise their strict licensing of SC2 in Korea is stunting its growth tremendously.
mad respect to SangHo and Clide.
Agreed. One league (where competition is just huge with only 32 players getting much out of it) is just too little.
Blizzard, KeSPA, and GOMTV need to all team up and work together (KeSPA may be willing to host an SC2 league if Blizzard allows them to and helps sponsor the prize money). No really KeSPA isn't that bad >.>.
KeSPA would need to change a bit though in terms of how they deal with players, because SC2 pros are not used to, and probably do not want such a strict and controlling overseer. Would KeSPA do that?
Already did for WC3 years ago. And most SC2 pros are used to it becasue the vast majority of them are former BW progamers/practice partners.
I am sure you tried to keep him from leaving. What kind of conversation have you two had during this whole process? That he shouldn’t leave like this and that this was not an agreement made through the right channels, nor an official trade between two teams. I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this, but he was adamant that he would be able to live through this negativity. He felt bad about his decision and told us that he knew a lot about the team (EG) already. Since we are bound to run into each other again in the future, we decided to part ways amicably.
This really gets me into a rage...
There wouldn't have been a fraction of the "negativity" that has occurred if Lee hadn't immediately started giving his sob story about how "the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", and painting EG as some big evil corporation etc. Then he goes on talking about players giving him back their salaries and stipends to seal the sympathy vote.
If you truly care for your players, then you'll be happy for them when they find a better situation for themselves, and grateful to the people who provided it. It makes me wonder if he even believes it himself.
I don't know what makes me more sick, Coach Lee's statements about the situation, or the majority of the communities reaction to it.
I ponder if you would do differently and be all quiet about it, I know I wouldn't, it makes me wonder if you even believe yourself.
I'm too cynical to ever find myself in such a situation, so I honestly couldn't tell you. In the end, we're all just armchair analysts who can't do more than speculate (unless you can read minds; I know I can't). I just know that the whole situation reminds me of Fox News with the way so many are positively eating up the spin that was put on this story (Coach Lee's spin, that is), and not thinking critically.
Maybe I would be pissed. Maybe there are even more reasons for him to be pissed than we even know about (I could picture them getting some juicy sponsorship offers after Puma's performance in NASL, which may have even brought them out of the hole [/speculate]), but if I truly cared for the players the way Lee says he does, I would keep my mouth shut so this shitstorm wouldn't consume "the player I raised". His affection seems pretty shallow to me; approximately as deep as his wallet, apparently.
Unlike many, I'm going to have reasonable expectations about humans and recognize that they're that - human. It's perfectly reasonable for him to be emotionally upset and a sense of betrayal after Puma leaves. This isn't some cultural analysis - it's a freaking universal understanding of team membership and friendship that is cultivated by participation in a team. And before you go "but no betrayal, there was no contract!" - you don't need a contract to have a relationship, you don't contract any of your friends but it's obvious that you can feel betrayed when friends suddenly ditch you, for instance.
You're assuming an awful lot about human nature. The stories and articles about people giving up opportunities and making sacrifices for their teams and friends make headlines and the Silver Screen because they aren't the norm. For every guy in a platoon that jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, there are a dozen or more that didn't (and likely countless platoons where NOBODY did where everyone just got a body full of shrapnel).
There are too many separate issues regarding this situation, and people are getting them all mixed up. Here are the issues I can come up with, and the conclusion I've personally reached about them:
1. Was it wrong for Puma to leave TSL?
My answer is no. There is nothing wrong with trying to better your own situation. If you find a better job, nobody can blame you for taking it, even if you've been with your current company for years. It's not betrayal, and that has nothing to do with contracts. You can be friends with people without being on the same team.
2. Was EG's method of acquiring Puma dirty or underhanded?
After hearing Alex's explanation of what transpired on his end, I don't think they did anything "wrong". I'm not even sure they made a mistake. They had no way of knowing that Puma would wait so long to talk to Coach Lee about it (I believe it was said that EG approached Puma when he made it to the Ro4, NOT after he won, and he didn't say anything till after GSTL.), and they were NOT obligated to talk to Coach Lee themselves (and perhaps didn't realize that they should have, though I'm not sure on that part). Puma supposedly wanted to break the news to Lee himself, and EG obliged him. If it was a mistake, then lesson learned. They now know for next time. I don't see anything here that screams "Big Evil Corporation nomnomnom!"
3. Was EG's (Alex's) reaction to this publicity correct?
I think everyone agrees that it was handled very poorly. He was late to field a response, and when he finally did, in a medium that was probably the very best possible scenario to make things clear, he digressed to a subject that really should have been saved for another time. He shot himself in the foot on the home stretch of what would have otherwise been as good a recovery as he could have hoped for.
4. Is TSL's situation a sad sad story?
It sure is. Losing players left and right. Having trouble keeping sponsors and quickly running out of money. Your first big tournament result is followed by some unfortunate news. It's like they were finally on an upswing, and they hit a brick wall. It really is tragic, but one thing I know is that the source of their misfortune is not Puma, and it isn't EG. Lee's coaching has been called into question. TSL's skill level may be to blame. Perhaps it's the Korean SC2 scene in general that is the core of their problems. Or maybe a hundred other things that none of us have any clue about. Coach Lee and TSL are doing an excellent job of painting themselves as the victims, and maybe they think they are, but when I see stories of the players giving back their salaries and stipends to help a faltering team, I don't get all warm and fuzzy inside, and I don't see heroes in the making; I see naive kids who don't know the value of themselves and their money, and incompetent adults who have to be bailed out by their charges.
When has lee's coaching been called into question? and why? i think they asked that question in the interview but i think it has to do with the fact that he couldnt fulfill his promise to FD and tester, and i dont really see what he could have done about that. I dont think its actually his coaching ability it has been stated many times that he is a superb coach that has been in the business for quite a long time.
Artosis and Tasteless have also given some background on him a few times in the previous GSTL's seems like hes been in the business for a long time and was a pro player himself whoops.Lee or something i beleive.
It's funny because let's face it, SangHo and Clide are the two TSL members that Tasteless and Artosis both know personally and talk about all the time, it's great that we're hearing this sort of information about them "leak out".
This deepens their story pretty well, and that's what being a fan is about
On July 22 2011 13:59 ragealot wrote: I feel as though people glossed over the most important part of the interview by praising Clide/Sangho. " If PuMa was placed in Code S, I believe he would not have taken the deal. From the Korean player’s perspective, getting into Code S is hard, and winning the GSL is even harder, thus the door of opportunity is very narrow." Guess what the former two have that Puma doesn't. One worthwhile league is not enough, especially with such a top heavy prize pool.
What are you trying to say in this post? Please clarify your point, I don't get it
On July 22 2011 13:59 ragealot wrote: I feel as though people glossed over the most important part of the interview by praising Clide/Sangho. " If PuMa was placed in Code S, I believe he would not have taken the deal. From the Korean player’s perspective, getting into Code S is hard, and winning the GSL is even harder, thus the door of opportunity is very narrow." Guess what the former two have that Puma doesn't. One worthwhile league is not enough, especially with such a top heavy prize pool.
What are you trying to say in this post? Please clarify your point, I don't get it
That the lack of opportunity in Korea helped drive Puma to EG.
On July 22 2011 13:59 ragealot wrote: I feel as though people glossed over the most important part of the interview by praising Clide/Sangho. " If PuMa was placed in Code S, I believe he would not have taken the deal. From the Korean player’s perspective, getting into Code S is hard, and winning the GSL is even harder, thus the door of opportunity is very narrow." Guess what the former two have that Puma doesn't. One worthwhile league is not enough, especially with such a top heavy prize pool.
What are you trying to say in this post? Please clarify your point, I don't get it
That the lack of opportunity in Korea helped drive Puma to EG.
This problem has a lot facets to it.
Blizzards handling of SC2 in Korea Gretechs monopoly KeSPA's negativity towards SC2 Semi-stable success of BW as competition for "Starcraft" fans and funds. etc.
EG saw Puma as an opportunity which they took. The reason they didn't approach the coach was because it would have decreased their chances of acquiring Puma. Contract or no, Puma was on the team TSL, where he was brought up as a player. AG is a great talker and he can spin stuff all he wants by hiding behind his business models, but what EG did was underhanded.
Well, it's PuMa's decision, but I think he really pulled a dick move on his team. Not a very nice move by EG as well, it seems to me as if they purposely tried to avoid the coach.
. Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport.
As long as u keep a game inside 1 country (with 1-2 exceptions), that's not an esport, that's a big lan party. If u want to support SC2 (a global game) as an e-sport, and actually want to get a fanbase, teams in korea have to stop thinking "just Korea". As more and more u will go outside and play NASL MLG etc etc, not only will the skill of the overall planet go up (foreigners playing with kr's) but the fanbase will shoot through the sky and u will be more appreciated.
It's a mentality koreans have to get over, GSL is good now, but in 1 year the rest will be much better...and GSL will slowly turn into a very small competition.
. Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. This needs to be solved in order for Starcraft 2 to flourish as an e-sport.
As long as u keep a game inside 1 country (with 1-2 exceptions), that's not an esport, that's a big lan party. If u want to support SC2 (a global game) as an e-sport, and actually want to get a fanbase, teams in korea have to stop thinking "just Korea". As more and more u will go outside and play NASL MLG etc etc, not only will the skill of the overall planet go up (foreigners playing with kr's) but the fanbase will shoot through the sky and u will be more appreciated.
It's a mentality koreans have to get over, GSL is good now, but in 1 year the rest will be much better...and GSL will slowly turn into a very small competition.
Seriously, do you actually know what you are saying?
BW is doing just fine and its just Korea. So BW is just a big lan pary to you? Seriously, you SC2 kids need to learn history a bit before pulling bullshit like that. I hope SC2 could one day be as big as BW. But saying its is only Esports if it is a global game is so stupid. That is like completely ignoring established BW scene in Korea. SC2 would not be what it is today if the BW scene didnot exist.
If SC2 one day could be as big as BW in Korea, Korean SC2 wont need to go to foreign tournaments to compete. The skill gap (between Kr and foreigners) will just be bigger and GSL at that time will be better than any other foreign tournaments instead of becoming small like you said. Please look at BW and WCG to know.
Posts like yours are not helping so please don't post.
PUMA it sounds like made the right decision. TSL is obviously struggling and had several internal conflicts with many of its big names leaving also they financially can barely support there players just basically paying room and board. I highly doubt they can afford to send players all over the world to different tourneys with out the tourneys themselves paying for it (NASL travel stipend being an example). Puma could stay with TSL and keep trying to get through the soul crushingly difficult code A qualifiers or he could join EG and still try to qualify but have many more opportunity's to showcase his skills at foreign tourneys.
On July 23 2011 19:31 DCWasabi wrote: If you were in Puma's shoes wouldn't you be looking out for your own financial well-being? Not like SC2 is the most stable career.
Especially in Korea, where you make no money unless you can squeeze into code S, which is extremely hard to do because there are 100+ amazing players and only 32 "money spots"
On July 23 2011 19:31 DCWasabi wrote: If you were in Puma's shoes wouldn't you be looking out for your own financial well-being? Not like SC2 is the most stable career.
Especially in Korea, where you make no money unless you can squeeze into code S, which is extremely hard to do because there are 100+ amazing players and only 32 "money spots"
And it's only taken 7 months to weed out the players that really shouldn't have been there.
TSL will live after losing this guy. It was a bigger deal when TesteR and Fruitdealer left to me. PuMa is good, but Fruitdealer and Tester (and CLIIIIIIIIDE) made the team.
No one even knew who PuMa was before the NASL, or even the GSTL.
But now that he won a title everyone starts shittin' bricks. I think this is great for the foreign e-sports and e-sports in general, as now EG has one of the best practice terrans in the world, and that will help their whole team become that much stronger.
On July 23 2011 19:31 DCWasabi wrote: If you were in Puma's shoes wouldn't you be looking out for your own financial well-being? Not like SC2 is the most stable career.
Especially in Korea, where you make no money unless you can squeeze into code S, which is extremely hard to do because there are 100+ amazing players and only 32 "money spots"
Only Semifinalist recieve a decent amount of money.
BW is backed by major SK corporations that hand out salaries to most of the pro gamers. This system is sustainable while a prize money system will fail in the long run, because there is not much to gain for most of the guys.
That is where Gretech and Blizz have fucked up. They could not come to terms with Kespa (SK corporations) and had to get money elsewhere in order to achieve sustainability. SK corporations work together through Kespa and Gretech and Blizz are seen as intruders that are welcome with a wall of silence. Now Gretech and Blizz realize more and more that they need Kespa while already having burned bridges with them.
The best thing would be: Gretech gives up the exklusive rights and becomes a major partner for the cable stations that broadcast BW in SK. Then all governing issues will be handed over to Kespa to get SK corporations on board and allow BW teams to establish SC2 teams or to merge with existing teams. This will give the ordinary pro gamer a salary and make a SC2 pro gaming career worthwhile.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Visited myeg.net for the perhaps third - but definitely last - time in my life. Gathered a list of the sponsors that I can avoid. Its basically the only easy way to even remotely try to keep and stick to your personal principles.
So:
Intel -> Always gone with AMD anyways, no problem Steelseries -> I looove my 5HV2USB headset, but it actually recently broke (no sound in the right ear sometimes, have to smack it around a bit for it to start working) and its only ~1 year old. Guess I will go with a Razer headset next! Monster Energy -> Who the fuck drinks Monster Energy anyway, it taste like shit. Redbull all the way! Kingston HyperX -> Fine, I'll buy Corsair or Crucial then. Bigfoot Networks -> You know what they say: "Big feet = Big dick (aka EG) Ventrilo -> Teamspeak ftw
I'm glad we got to hear a little more about this whole thing from coach Lee some time after. A little look inside the workings of a team is always enlightening as well. Thanks for the post.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Visited myeg.net for the perhaps third - but definitely last - time in my life. Gathered a list of the sponsors that I can avoid. Its basically the only easy way to even remotely try to keep and stick to your personal principles.
So:
Intel -> Always gone with AMD anyways, no problem Steelseries -> I looove my 5HV2USB headset, but it actually recently broke (no sound in the right ear sometimes, have to smack it around a bit for it to start working) and its only ~1 year old. Guess I will go with a Razer headset next! Monster Energy -> Who the fuck drinks Monster Energy anyway, it taste like shit. Redbull all the way! Kingston HyperX -> Fine, I'll buy Corsair or Crucial then. Bigfoot Networks -> You know what they say: "Big feet = Big dick (aka EG) Ventrilo -> Teamspeak ftw
That's overblown hatred right there gents.
Some of those sponsors also sponsor teams like dignitas and fnatic, I suppose you'll be avoiding them too.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Visited myeg.net for the perhaps third - but definitely last - time in my life. Gathered a list of the sponsors that I can avoid. Its basically the only easy way to even remotely try to keep and stick to your personal principles.
So:
Intel -> Always gone with AMD anyways, no problem Steelseries -> I looove my 5HV2USB headset, but it actually recently broke (no sound in the right ear sometimes, have to smack it around a bit for it to start working) and its only ~1 year old. Guess I will go with a Razer headset next! Monster Energy -> Who the fuck drinks Monster Energy anyway, it taste like shit. Redbull all the way! Kingston HyperX -> Fine, I'll buy Corsair or Crucial then. Bigfoot Networks -> You know what they say: "Big feet = Big dick (aka EG) Ventrilo -> Teamspeak ftw
That's overblown hatred right there gents.
Some of those sponsors also sponsor teams like dignitas and fnatic, I suppose you'll be avoiding them too.
Not at all, overblown hatred would be what others have suggested to take their anger and other motions out on the players directly by booing them and stuff like that. What I'm doing is simply use my right as a consumer to stay away from sponsors of a team I do not wish any success. There is no "hatred" - wasn't the main point of everyone that defended EG that "It's only business"? Very well, then I will conduct my personal business with companys not affiliated with EG.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Visited myeg.net for the perhaps third - but definitely last - time in my life. Gathered a list of the sponsors that I can avoid. Its basically the only easy way to even remotely try to keep and stick to your personal principles.
So:
Intel -> Always gone with AMD anyways, no problem Steelseries -> I looove my 5HV2USB headset, but it actually recently broke (no sound in the right ear sometimes, have to smack it around a bit for it to start working) and its only ~1 year old. Guess I will go with a Razer headset next! Monster Energy -> Who the fuck drinks Monster Energy anyway, it taste like shit. Redbull all the way! Kingston HyperX -> Fine, I'll buy Corsair or Crucial then. Bigfoot Networks -> You know what they say: "Big feet = Big dick (aka EG) Ventrilo -> Teamspeak ftw
Dont support companies that support 'esport', awesome idea -_- This kind of posts should be bannable.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Visited myeg.net for the perhaps third - but definitely last - time in my life. Gathered a list of the sponsors that I can avoid. Its basically the only easy way to even remotely try to keep and stick to your personal principles.
So:
Intel -> Always gone with AMD anyways, no problem Steelseries -> I looove my 5HV2USB headset, but it actually recently broke (no sound in the right ear sometimes, have to smack it around a bit for it to start working) and its only ~1 year old. Guess I will go with a Razer headset next! Monster Energy -> Who the fuck drinks Monster Energy anyway, it taste like shit. Redbull all the way! Kingston HyperX -> Fine, I'll buy Corsair or Crucial then. Bigfoot Networks -> You know what they say: "Big feet = Big dick (aka EG) Ventrilo -> Teamspeak ftw
Dont support companies that support 'esport', awesome idea -_- This kind of posts should be bannable.
You think those are the only companies that supports esports? What world are you living in? I always try to buy products from companies that support esports but 1.) There are limits and 2.) If I can buy Razer instead of Steelseries in what way, shape or form would that harm esports? The difference would be that a company that doesn't sponsor a team I dislike would get my money.
i can't believe how much eg hate is in this thread. óo
they offered a good player who was in a financially unstable position (no salary) stability, and the opportunity to play in foreign tournaments. since when is that evil? why exactly should i boycott them now?
I dont understand why there is anything wrong with PuMa joining EG instead of TSL, and why there should be anything wrong with EG contacting PuMa before contacting Mr.Lee?
PuMa does not owe TSL ANYTHING. He has brought them exposure and fans not only in Korea but he also went to NASL flagging the TSL shirt and their sponsors. Also he wasnt payed and didnt have a contract with TSL. The TSL staff and the remaining players should thank PuMa for doing his best for as long as it lasted, and support him moving on to a bigger organisation that will give him a better founding and provide him with beeing able to compete in tournaments outside of Korea.
I think it's bullshit that guys like Milkis seem to have it in their head that EG seem to owe apologies to various korean organizations. They have done nothing wrong and not offended TSL or any other ogranization by starting a partnership with PuMa.
On July 23 2011 22:21 NinMarth wrote: i can't believe how much eg hate is in this thread. óo
they offered a good player who was in a financially unstable position (no salary) stability, and the opportunity to play in foreign tournaments. since when is that evil? why exactly should i boycott them now?
The only problem is that EG was expecting Puma to clear everything with his coach first, and if his coach wanted to talk with EG first then they expected Puma would make that happen. Puma has EG's business card, they COULD'VE talked.
Instead Puma' Coach told him he was fine with it, and then turned around and told the press that he was disgusted that EG didn't talk to him. Screw EG? The Coach could've asked for Puma to wait until he talked to EG, but his coach assumed EG was just assholes, and thus we have this situation.
And now Kespa-like measures are being proposed all over Korea. Screw EG? Or Screw Coach Lee's overeaction and unwilling-ness to contact EG?
On July 23 2011 22:21 NinMarth wrote: i can't believe how much eg hate is in this thread. óo
they offered a good player who was in a financially unstable position (no salary) stability, and the opportunity to play in foreign tournaments. since when is that evil? why exactly should i boycott them now?
The only problem is that EG was expecting Puma to clear everything with his coach first, and if his coach wanted to talk with EG first then they expected Puma would make that happen. Puma has EG's business card, they COULD'VE talked.
Instead Puma' Coach told him he was fine with it, and then turned around and told the press that he was disgusted that EG didn't talk to him. Screw EG? The Coach could've asked for Puma to wait until he talked to EG, but his coach assumed EG was just assholes, and thus we have this situation.
And now Kespa-like measures are being proposed all over Korea. Screw EG? Or Screw Coach Lee's overeaction and unwilling-ness to contact EG?
Are you trolling?
It isn't Coach Lee's responsibility to talk to EG, it should have been EG that approached Coach Lee first.
On July 23 2011 23:33 CanucksJC wrote: It isn't Coach Lee's responsibility to talk to EG, it should have been EG that approached Coach Lee first.
Why would EG need to approach him about a player not under contract? Courtesy? EG had no obligation to speak to anyone other than Puma. While this was another blow for TSL, I don't think any party was actually wronged in any of this.
On July 23 2011 23:33 CanucksJC wrote: It isn't Coach Lee's responsibility to talk to EG, it should have been EG that approached Coach Lee first.
Why would EG need to approach him about a player not under contract? Courtesy? EG had no obligation to speak to anyone other than Puma. While this was another blow for TSL, I don't think any party was actually wronged in any of this.
I agree. I attribute this whole drama to the coach Lee. Puma could have declined. But ultimately Puma wasn't contracted and he isn't receiving a salary from the TSL. EG wants to pay Puma. This is great for Puma, EG and the SC2 as esport.
On July 23 2011 23:33 CanucksJC wrote: It isn't Coach Lee's responsibility to talk to EG, it should have been EG that approached Coach Lee first.
Why would EG need to approach him about a player not under contract? Courtesy? EG had no obligation to speak to anyone other than Puma. While this was another blow for TSL, I don't think any party was actually wronged in any of this.
Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
On July 23 2011 23:33 CanucksJC wrote: It isn't Coach Lee's responsibility to talk to EG, it should have been EG that approached Coach Lee first.
Why would EG need to approach him about a player not under contract? Courtesy? EG had no obligation to speak to anyone other than Puma. While this was another blow for TSL, I don't think any party was actually wronged in any of this.
Uhh..... Even though PuMa wasn't contracted, he was still under TSL. Since he wasn't on a contract, no one was wronged technically, but it was still a dick move by EG. I actually find it very hard to see this from the other side of the argument...
On July 23 2011 23:59 CreamCorn wrote: I agree. I attribute this whole drama to the coach Lee. Puma could have declined. But ultimately Puma wasn't contracted and he isn't receiving a salary from the TSL. EG wants to pay Puma. This is great for Puma, EG and the SC2 as esport.
Well no, now that teams are thinking twice about sending their players internationally. Clide and Killer admitted they have been approached too. Don't you think it's more professional for teams to go after the management instead of the players themselves?
On July 24 2011 00:02 Galaxy613 wrote: But instead of righting the perceived wrong he went to press! I guess it's easier to throw hate around then it is to actually talk calmly.
If you actually read the article and followed TSL's twitter, you would know better than to say something like this... :S
On July 23 2011 23:33 CanucksJC wrote: It isn't Coach Lee's responsibility to talk to EG, it should have been EG that approached Coach Lee first.
Why would EG need to approach him about a player not under contract? Courtesy? EG had no obligation to speak to anyone other than Puma. While this was another blow for TSL, I don't think any party was actually wronged in any of this.
Uhh..... Even though PuMa wasn't contracted, he was still under TSL. Since he wasn't on a contract, no one was wronged technically, but it was still a dick move by EG. I actually find it very hard to see this from the other side of the argument...
I don't see how it's a dick move to reward a good player with a contract and pay him a salary. I think it's a dick move by TSL's head coach to create all this drama over this. It's really unfair to Puma really, who deserves to be contracted for he's a really talented player.
On July 23 2011 23:59 CreamCorn wrote: I agree. I attribute this whole drama to the coach Lee. Puma could have declined. But ultimately Puma wasn't contracted and he isn't receiving a salary from the TSL. EG wants to pay Puma. This is great for Puma, EG and the SC2 as esport.
Well no, now that teams are thinking twice about sending their players internationally. Clide and Killer admitted they have been approached too. Don't you think it's more professional for teams to go after the management instead of the players themselves?
Why should they be afraid to send players overseas?
If Puma was a paid player by TSL and had a contract this wouldn't have happened. You can't really expect to have a top player without having a contract.
Clide and Killer were approached and they didn't even leave Korea? NaDa, MC.. travel a lot and I am sure they have been approached by foreign teams but oGs is probably much better about actually signing and paying their players.
On July 24 2011 00:03 CanucksJC wrote: Uhh..... Even though PuMa wasn't contracted, he was still under TSL. Since he wasn't on a contract, no one was wronged technically, but it was still a dick move by EG. I actually find it very hard to see this from the other side of the argument...
Even though I disagree, I at least get why you disprove of their actions. I think this incident highlights the flaws present in the informal manner in which some teams conduct business and their reliance on unwritten rules, especially given the global nature of the current SC2 scene.
Well no, now that teams are thinking twice about sending their players internationally. Clide and Killer admitted they have been approached too. Don't you think it's more professional for teams to go after the management instead of the players themselves?
I would argue that if a player is good enough for you to send them to an international tournament, it would be foolish to expect them not to be approached by another team if they aren't under contract. The solution is to sign them before sending them, problem avoided.
For the record, I'm not arguing that it couldn't have been handled more cleanly.
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
I'm surprised Team EG, or Puma could of put more thought into this situation.
It could of been easily a joint venture. Puma representing EG/ in foreigners tournaments, and representing TSL in GSL tournaments. Team OGS, and Team liquid work together, why not other teams?
All I know for a foreigner team to acquire a Korean player like this will have a negative backlash on how Korean SC views the foreigner scene in general. Even if it was Pumas decision, and his choice, both sides will have to face negative feedback from the Korean culture.
Like it or not the Koreans made this game what it is. We have to have some type of respect for their efforts for e~sports, as well as common respect for the teams & coaches.
I hope before another situation like this happens, Teams looking for new prospects, players , and coaches can communicate openly, and honestly about where they stand, and what their present and future intentions are.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
Yeah, definitely, its not just about contracts or anything in Asian cultures, its much more about respect in general. AlexG is quite shady despite playing within the rules, i mean i hate to say it, but IMO this hurts the western organization's reputation, sure you can say that they are all not that shady, but korean organizations are going to label and generalize the western community, and with SangHo and Clide coming out with how they were approached by western organizations, korean teams and organizations are much more likely going to be more tough with their team reguations, force contracts, and most likely more of the Koreans to Western teams will happen much less (or untill contracts expire). Also, the KoT debate with Milkis and AlexG.... come on Alex. Its almost the same thing as me asking him "hey dude, you like strawberry ice crream?" and him just saying "well i like fruit flavored ice cream".
So why should western organizations bend to the asian? I still dont get it why you all think of korea in such a highly honored way. Sure it's the "mecca" of SC1 but seriously, the western organizations have way more to offer than korean orgas ... get over it. USA/EU companies have more business budgets than koreans.
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
Unless you want something back from that community at 1 point or another, which they do.
So in conclusion, EG is just not very bright thinking they can snatch like that without it being a ''big deal''.
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
Unless you want something back from that community at 1 point or another, which they do.
So in conclusion, EG is just not very bright thinking they can snatch like that without it being a ''big deal''.
And Korea is not very bright thinking they can keep players with "loyalty and honor".
Not enough players Not enough money Some great talent No strong practice regiment
The team had/has some great talents, but really needs to utilize them more efficiently. Unfortunately they didn't do that sooner. Clide Rain Puma Sangho all would make great mentors to 10-15 younger players. It is unfortunate that they lost the players, but also very weird to me that EG picked up Puma perhaps though for the foreign tournaments though.
I really feel like while Korean gamers will most likely continue to dominate for a long time yet the center for sc2 esports will be in NA and EU not in Korea.
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Asian cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
Unless you want something back from that community at 1 point or another, which they do.
So in conclusion, EG is just not very bright thinking they can snatch like that without it being a ''big deal''.
So are you seriously suggesting that EG will be barred from the Korean SC2 scene over this? Because I rather doubt that. I also doubt such a move would seriously hurt EG.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
Yeah, definitely, its not just about contracts or anything in Asian cultures, its much more about respect in general. AlexG is quite shady despite playing within the rules, i mean i hate to say it, but IMO this hurts the western organization's reputation, sure you can say that they are all not that shady, but korean organizations are going to label and generalize the western community, and with SangHo and Clide coming out with how they were approached by western organizations, korean teams and organizations are much more likely going to be more tough with their team reguations, force contracts, and most likely more of the Koreans to Western teams will happen much less (or untill contracts expire). Also, the KoT debate with Milkis and AlexG.... come on Alex. Its almost the same thing as me asking him "hey dude, you like strawberry ice crream?" and him just saying "well i like fruit flavored ice cream".
So why should western organizations bend to the asian? I still dont get it why you all think of korea in such a highly honored way. Sure it's the "mecca" of SC1 but seriously, the western organizations have way more to offer than korean orgas ... get over it. USA/EU companies have more business budgets than koreans.
Yet Korea got the players and the infrastructure to make these players to what they are. If you want the players you should at least respect the ways they do stuff there.
I don't see why you should have to go to a manager first.
EG: Would we like to sign Puma Coach Lee: I wouldn't like that
...
I think you should always ask the player first whether he is even remotely interested in joining first so you don't go around asking every single korean manager if you can do business.
Edit: @ above poster. If you want their players obviously you don't have to "respect" their culture. Puma could have told EG, please contact my manager first but he didn't!
All these big teams that actually pay their players money and let them travel to various tournaments will be able to sign these koreans(or some sort of col/mvp ogs/sk deal).
To be honest, Coach Lee deserves a lot more respect due to his trust in the players. You don't really see that kind of trust anymore since nearly every player is contracted the moment they joined the team. But it's true that TSL hasn't been showing great results in tournaments as of late. I kind of feel sorry for the coach and how much work he has ahead of him...
On July 24 2011 01:42 ProxyKite wrote: To be honest, Coach Lee deserves a lot more respect due to his trust in the players. You don't really see that kind of trust anymore since nearly every player is contracted the moment they joined the team. But it's true that TSL hasn't been showing great results in tournaments as of late. I kind of feel sorry for the coach and how much work he has ahead of him...
In all situations in life if there isn't a contract in place then it is your own fault. If you develop a product without a patent it doesn't matter how much work you do if someone patent's it first. The same thing with Puma especially after he saw foreign gold. Come to USA, great fans, great money, hella relaxed tournament setting usually (nasl, online/weekend final; MLG weekend; IPL online/weekend final; and same setting for most EU tournaments) also he probably now has a good salary plus you know EG is the team that will send him to every event.
1. Player has no contract 2. Player is offered a contract (but nothing is signed yet) 3. Player tells his coach 4. Shit fest when no contract has been signed 5. WTF ?
On July 22 2011 12:42 Fionn wrote: Clide and Killer get tons of props for sticking with Lee and their team even when teams tried to poach them.
Also glad their top players are gonna get some good contracts. Also now knowing Rain's dad lives in New York makes the whole Rain leaving thing put into a different light.
Shit. They get even more props for giving the money that they earned back to the team to help out. That's a pretty big level of commitment, as well as an incredible awesome thing to do for a team that has helped them out so much.
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
What is the Complexity thing?
It was during the counter-strike 1.6. Complexity's entire Counter-Strike roster was basically poached by EG without any knowledge of Jason Lake
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
I take it that you've never been involved in business. Even on Wall Street, companies are ALWAYS respectful of each other in the public sphere. They don't want to risk poisoning their brand with stupid shit like this. How many fans do you think EG earned with this? Not very fucking many.
But this is Alex Garfield, the guy who ninja'd a whole CS 1.6 team. I don't know why anyone is surprised at that snake's ways, especially when he has the affable but immature SirScoots working for him.
EG also poached Justin Wong (who is/was the best Street Fighter player) from Empire Arcadia. I'm pretty sure this is nothing new to EG. While EG is looking all bad in this discussion, you have to realize that they are only able to steal players because they actually provide a good salary. JWong went from barely making a living (which is upsetting when you're THE best SF player) to making enough so he would not have to worry about his financial needs. I'm sure Puma was in the same situation.
Besides, even if he was on contract with TSL, he'd move to EG as soon as it was over.
EG's manager is a freaking scumbag. Honestly, dealing behind the back of the team manager and poaching players... around the world, it's courtesy to talk to the manager first about signing their player, not stealing their player from under their nose.
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
I take it that you've never been involved in business. Even on Wall Street, companies are ALWAYS respectful of each other in the public sphere. They don't want to risk poisoning their brand with stupid shit like this. How many fans do you think EG earned with this? Not very fucking many.
But this is Alex Garfield, the guy who ninja'd a whole CS 1.6 team. I don't know why anyone is surprised at that snake's ways, especially when he has the affable but immature SirScoots working for him.
Holy uninformed post, clearly you have no idea how the CS 1.6 situation went down and are looking to simply appropriate the event as part of a flimsy argument that suggests that mainstream business isn't cutthroat? WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? Global corporations don't give a shit about ethics or morality when it comes to capitalizing on profit opportunities and new acquisitions. US corporations moving production facilities overseas, avoiding billions of dollars in federal taxes, hell even the Korean company Samsung is famous for pretty much out and out stealing Apple's designs. Do you even know what a hostile takeover is? They happen all the time and entire multi million companies are pieced out and sold at the cost of thousands of jobs, usually in the name of market reduction or simple corporate advancement. Wake up man, businesses are not meant to be friends, they are meant to conduct business.
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
I take it that you've never been involved in business. Even on Wall Street, companies are ALWAYS respectful of each other in the public sphere. They don't want to risk poisoning their brand with stupid shit like this. How many fans do you think EG earned with this? Not very fucking many.
But this is Alex Garfield, the guy who ninja'd a whole CS 1.6 team. I don't know why anyone is surprised at that snake's ways, especially when he has the affable but immature SirScoots working for him.
Holy uninformed post, clearly you have no idea how the CS 1.6 situation went down and are looking to simply appropriate the event as part of a flimsy argument that suggests that mainstream business isn't cutthroat? WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? Global corporations don't give a shit about ethics or morality when it comes to capitalizing on profit opportunities and new acquisitions. US corporations moving production facilities overseas, avoiding billions of dollars in federal taxes, hell even the Korean company Samsung is famous for pretty much out and out stealing Apple's designs. Do you even know what a hostile takeover is? They happen all the time and entire multi million companies are pieced out and sold at the cost of thousands of jobs, usually in the name of market reduction or simple corporate advancement. Wake up man, businesses are not meant to be friends, they are meant to conduct business.
Maybe in your twisted lassaiz-faire Americanism they are, but I see no reason to simply accept that as moral or ethically sound. People are pissed because everybody knows that businesses act immorally. Most countries (read: not America) have government regulation of the private sector to a fairly significant degree.
Mainstream business is cutthroat to a point, but that doesn't change the fact that unethical decisions shouldn't be looked down upon just because they're the standard. I'll also point out that I was talking about the public sphere, not closed-door dealings.
As for your drivel about the CS situation, I'm not even going to honour your defense of EG's management, because it's a well-known fact that they steal players in virtually every game. No idea what that has to do with business being not cutthroat (if anything it suggests the opposite).
This whole nonsense of "businesses are not meant to be friends" stinks of Ayn Rand, and is nothing more than the legitimization of anti-social disorder masquerading under the apathy which permeates American private sector politics. Yeah, corporations do evil and corrupt shit all the time. Guess what? That's bad. Saying 'oh, it's the way business work' does not indemnify you from anyone with a moral compass. So sit the fuck down.
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
I take it that you've never been involved in business. Even on Wall Street, companies are ALWAYS respectful of each other in the public sphere. They don't want to risk poisoning their brand with stupid shit like this. How many fans do you think EG earned with this? Not very fucking many.
But this is Alex Garfield, the guy who ninja'd a whole CS 1.6 team. I don't know why anyone is surprised at that snake's ways, especially when he has the affable but immature SirScoots working for him.
That analogy doesn't really work though. If a company hired an intern (which is roughly what PuMa was at TSL) away from another company, it wouldn't really be treated as a big deal. It certainly wouldn't be newsworthy. Maybe your comparison would be more accurate if EG was actually going out and making public statements against/insulting TSL, but I haven't seen that happen.
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
I take it that you've never been involved in business. Even on Wall Street, companies are ALWAYS respectful of each other in the public sphere. They don't want to risk poisoning their brand with stupid shit like this. How many fans do you think EG earned with this? Not very fucking many.
But this is Alex Garfield, the guy who ninja'd a whole CS 1.6 team. I don't know why anyone is surprised at that snake's ways, especially when he has the affable but immature SirScoots working for him.
Holy uninformed post, clearly you have no idea how the CS 1.6 situation went down and are looking to simply appropriate the event as part of a flimsy argument that suggests that mainstream business isn't cutthroat? WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? Global corporations don't give a shit about ethics or morality when it comes to capitalizing on profit opportunities and new acquisitions. US corporations moving production facilities overseas, avoiding billions of dollars in federal taxes, hell even the Korean company Samsung is famous for pretty much out and out stealing Apple's designs. Do you even know what a hostile takeover is? They happen all the time and entire multi million companies are pieced out and sold at the cost of thousands of jobs, usually in the name of market reduction or simple corporate advancement. Wake up man, businesses are not meant to be friends, they are meant to conduct business.
Maybe in your twisted lassaiz-faire Americanism they are, but I see no reason to simply accept that as moral or ethically sound. People are pissed because everybody knows that businesses act immorally. Most countries (read: not America) have government regulation of the private sector to a fairly significant degree.
Mainstream business is cutthroat to a point, but that doesn't change the fact that unethical decisions shouldn't be looked down upon just because they're the standard. I'll also point out that I was talking about the public sphere, not closed-door dealings.
As for your drivel about the CS situation, I'm not even going to honour your defense of EG's management, because it's a well-known fact that they steal players in virtually every game. No idea what that has to do with business being not cutthroat (if anything it suggests the opposite).
This whole nonsense of "businesses are not meant to be friends" stinks of Ayn Rand, and is nothing more than the legitimization of anti-social disorder masquerading under the apathy which permeates American private sector politics. Yeah, corporations do evil and corrupt shit all the time. Guess what? That's bad. Saying 'oh, it's the way business work' does not indemnify you from anyone with a moral compass. So sit the fuck down.
"I take it that you've never been involved in business. Even on Wall Street, companies are ALWAYS respectful of each other in the public sphere."-hey man you said it, glad you've doubled back.
My point was not that business ethics or a lack thereof is some excuse for the manner in which EG conducted their business, I simply think that using silly analogies to Wall Street and imaginary "standards" does no one any good when it comes to fleshing out the business scene of Sc2 globally. Consider the mere fact that TSL did not have Puma under contract, clearly this indicates that we are dealing with an incredibly isolated and unique case, considering that the vast majority of businesses with any sense slap contracts down on assets ASAP.
As to your discussion of a moral compass, don't you think that recognition of the individual requires at least some consideration? Based on your posts, you consider the team structure in Korea to be some sort of moral authority, one which supersedes the rights of an individual. Whether or not this is actually the case (the creation KESPA in Sc1 seems to suggest no) remains to be seen, and the insistence that contacting PUMA about PUMA's situation is somehow wrong makes no sense within the framework of individual liberty being supreme.
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
I take it that you've never been involved in business. Even on Wall Street, companies are ALWAYS respectful of each other in the public sphere. They don't want to risk poisoning their brand with stupid shit like this. How many fans do you think EG earned with this? Not very fucking many.
But this is Alex Garfield, the guy who ninja'd a whole CS 1.6 team. I don't know why anyone is surprised at that snake's ways, especially when he has the affable but immature SirScoots working for him.
That analogy doesn't really work though. If a company hired an intern (which is roughly what PuMa was at TSL) away from another company, it wouldn't really be treated as a big deal. It certainly wouldn't be newsworthy. Maybe your comparison would be more accurate if EG was actually going out and making public statements against/insulting TSL, but I haven't seen that happen.
Allow me to quote SirScoots' response to the reaction of disgust from various users: "umadbro?"
Can you imagine what would happen if, say, Steve Jobs had said "umadbro?' when people were having technical difficulties with their iPhones? He would have gotten fucking crucified. It's EG's arrogance that pisses people off. Everything about this debacle reeks of arrogance. Calling PuMa an intern is a fundamental misunderstanding of his role. He was treated as a team player. It just so happens that contracts aren't the norm over there at the moment. That makes him a player by Korean standards. You can't lift the organizational structure of American eSports organizations with regard to sc2 and apply it to the vastly different Korean scene. It's dishonest.
On July 24 2011 03:01 DustinQQ wrote: EG's manager is a freaking scumbag. Honestly, dealing behind the back of the team manager and poaching players... around the world, it's courtesy to talk to the manager first about signing their player, not stealing their player from under their nose.
Imagine if this was boxing, and someone approached Don King's boxer (who by the way was not getting paid very much), and offered him more money or a better deal, and the boxer accepted it. The least scumbag of all 3 in that scenario would be the new manager (EG manager equivalent).
I don't see what the big deal is. If you have a valuable player on your team, well have him sign a contract and reward him for his talent. If you can't, other teams will.
Instead TSL's manager started all this drama, which by the way if he cared about Puma he would have kept his mouth shut. But since he didn't have a contract it's the only thing he can do to sabotage Puma's signing with EG.
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
I take it that you've never been involved in business. Even on Wall Street, companies are ALWAYS respectful of each other in the public sphere. They don't want to risk poisoning their brand with stupid shit like this. How many fans do you think EG earned with this? Not very fucking many.
But this is Alex Garfield, the guy who ninja'd a whole CS 1.6 team. I don't know why anyone is surprised at that snake's ways, especially when he has the affable but immature SirScoots working for him.
Wall Street? You say Wall Street cares about what people think of them? Do you not remember quite a few companies putting out fake financial reports to make it seem like the company was doing well meanwhile they're not only doing poorly, but they're broke? I'm sure everyone was fine with losing all of their invested money though.
EG earned EVERY puma fan. I doubt anyone was like man they went out and got a good player who was loosely associated with a team let's not root for them anymore. You also know little about the CS situation, and SirScoots.
Your post is not only inaccurate, but hostile and immature.
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
I take it that you've never been involved in business. Even on Wall Street, companies are ALWAYS respectful of each other in the public sphere. They don't want to risk poisoning their brand with stupid shit like this. How many fans do you think EG earned with this? Not very fucking many.
But this is Alex Garfield, the guy who ninja'd a whole CS 1.6 team. I don't know why anyone is surprised at that snake's ways, especially when he has the affable but immature SirScoots working for him.
Holy uninformed post, clearly you have no idea how the CS 1.6 situation went down and are looking to simply appropriate the event as part of a flimsy argument that suggests that mainstream business isn't cutthroat? WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? Global corporations don't give a shit about ethics or morality when it comes to capitalizing on profit opportunities and new acquisitions. US corporations moving production facilities overseas, avoiding billions of dollars in federal taxes, hell even the Korean company Samsung is famous for pretty much out and out stealing Apple's designs. Do you even know what a hostile takeover is? They happen all the time and entire multi million companies are pieced out and sold at the cost of thousands of jobs, usually in the name of market reduction or simple corporate advancement. Wake up man, businesses are not meant to be friends, they are meant to conduct business.
Maybe in your twisted lassaiz-faire Americanism they are, but I see no reason to simply accept that as moral or ethically sound. People are pissed because everybody knows that businesses act immorally. Most countries (read: not America) have government regulation of the private sector to a fairly significant degree.
Mainstream business is cutthroat to a point, but that doesn't change the fact that unethical decisions shouldn't be looked down upon just because they're the standard. I'll also point out that I was talking about the public sphere, not closed-door dealings.
As for your drivel about the CS situation, I'm not even going to honour your defense of EG's management, because it's a well-known fact that they steal players in virtually every game. No idea what that has to do with business being not cutthroat (if anything it suggests the opposite).
This whole nonsense of "businesses are not meant to be friends" stinks of Ayn Rand, and is nothing more than the legitimization of anti-social disorder masquerading under the apathy which permeates American private sector politics. Yeah, corporations do evil and corrupt shit all the time. Guess what? That's bad. Saying 'oh, it's the way business work' does not indemnify you from anyone with a moral compass. So sit the fuck down.
"I take it that you've never been involved in business. Even on Wall Street, companies are ALWAYS respectful of each other in the public sphere."-hey man you said it, glad you've doubled back.
My point was not that business ethics or a lack thereof is some excuse for the manner in which EG conducted their business, I simply think that using silly analogies to Wall Street and imaginary "standards" does no one any good when it comes to fleshing out the business scene of Sc2 globally. Consider the mere fact that TSL did not have Puma under contract, clearly this indicates that we are dealing with an incredibly isolated and unique case, considering that the vast majority of businesses with any sense slap contracts down on assets ASAP.
As to your discussion of a moral compass, don't you think that recognition of the individual requires at least some consideration? Based on your posts, you consider the team structure in Korea to be some sort of moral authority, one which supersedes the rights of an individual. Whether or not this is actually the case (the creation KESPA in Sc1 seems to suggest no) remains to be seen, and the insistence that contacting PUMA about PUMA's situation is somehow wrong makes no sense within the framework of individual liberty being supreme.
I'm not saying that Puma shouldn't have been allowed to be acquired by EG, or that TSL should have resisted. I would have been equally angry had Lee been approached by EG, with Puma accepting their offer, and refused. I'm angry now because for all of the damage control and loopholes being paraded about, everyone knows that Puma was for all intents and purposes a member of TSL. When he was in NASL, everyone knew him as TSL Puma. If you asked what team he was on, the answer would be "TSL." Again, I'm not saying EG did anything illegal, but they certainly spat in the face of Coach Lee, who at the very least deserved to be approached as professional, because that's just the way businesses on equal footing (I mean in terms of scope, not finances) do things.
I don't think that the team structure needs to supersede the rights of an individual. You're misunderstanding my point. I'm saying that EG handled the situation unprofessionally, because they completely ignored the fact that Puma belonged to, or at least was associated with, a team.
I've said it many times and I'll say it again: pretending that puma was a free agent in the same sense that someone who is teamless is a free agent is disingenuous and not indicative of the way in which most people (including most Koreans, by the look of things) look at teams. EG, assuming they are comprised of human beings, should understand this and act accordingly, and through above-the-table channels. At the very least, EG could have said "we'll be talking to Coach Lee about our intentions for recruiting you before anything happens." But no, that would have required too much, wouldn't it? Stop kidding yourselves.
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
I take it that you've never been involved in business. Even on Wall Street, companies are ALWAYS respectful of each other in the public sphere. They don't want to risk poisoning their brand with stupid shit like this. How many fans do you think EG earned with this? Not very fucking many.
But this is Alex Garfield, the guy who ninja'd a whole CS 1.6 team. I don't know why anyone is surprised at that snake's ways, especially when he has the affable but immature SirScoots working for him.
Wall Street? You say Wall Street cares about what people think of them? Do you not remember quite a few companies putting out fake financial reports to make it seem like the company was doing well meanwhile they're not only doing poorly, but they're broke? I'm sure everyone was fine with losing all of their invested money though.
EG earned EVERY puma fan. I doubt anyone was like man they went out and got a good player who was loosely associated with a team let's not root for them anymore. You also know little about the CS situation, and SirScoots.
Your post is not only inaccurate, but hostile and immature.
I guarantee I know more about Scoots's history than you ever will. EG has a reputation for underhanded tactics and rude management. Do you seriously think this is the first publicity stunt they've bungled?
Your comments about Wall St actually prove my point (falsifying records to ensure a public image, etc).
On July 24 2011 03:34 Shiori wrote:Calling PuMa an intern is a fundamental misunderstanding of his role. He was treated as a team player. It just so happens that contracts aren't the norm over there at the moment. That makes him a player by Korean standards. You can't lift the organizational structure of American eSports organizations with regard to sc2 and apply it to the vastly different Korean scene. It's dishonest.
A team player at a lower tier of pay/benefits. You can change "intern" to "employee" in my earlier statement if you like and it would be just as true. Heck even in my industry it's normal for companies to hire employees away from each other.
I could turn around your statement and say that American teams shouldn't be expected to conform with the Korean way of conducting business. What makes that view any less valid than your own?
On July 24 2011 03:34 Shiori wrote:Calling PuMa an intern is a fundamental misunderstanding of his role. He was treated as a team player. It just so happens that contracts aren't the norm over there at the moment. That makes him a player by Korean standards. You can't lift the organizational structure of American eSports organizations with regard to sc2 and apply it to the vastly different Korean scene. It's dishonest.
A team player at a lower tier of pay/benefits. You can change "intern" to "employee" in my earlier statement if you like and it would be just as true. Heck even in my industry it's normal for companies to hire employees away from each other.
I could turn around your statement and say that American teams shouldn't be expected to conform with the Korean way of conducting business. What makes that view any less valid than your own?
Certainly not, but since Puma is both Korean and belonged to a Korean team, it stands to reason that he, and his team, operate according to Korean standards of respect. I also question the idea that people in the West are accepting of these sorts of actions. Generally speaking, when a business does something "enterprising" like laying off workers and outsourcing to China, while we all acknowledge that this is commonplace in our business world, we pretty much universally condemn it as greedy and immoral.
I'd also like to point out that it's foolish to ignore the personal connection between starcraft players and their coaches. It's not exactly like being a student at a department store and being "hired away" by someone else. Every player playing for a team represents a (often personal) investment of a directed nature. They don't really take resumes.
I tire of this argument as I don't dispute the legality of EG's actions, just their lack of etiquette.
Some of you are so blinded by your support and defense of EG it makes me fucking sick to my stomach.
At this point it doesn't really matter who was contracted or uncontracted. The damage has already been done to the scene. This is so much bigger than this one single incident.
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
I take it that you've never been involved in business. Even on Wall Street, companies are ALWAYS respectful of each other in the public sphere. They don't want to risk poisoning their brand with stupid shit like this. How many fans do you think EG earned with this? Not very fucking many.
But this is Alex Garfield, the guy who ninja'd a whole CS 1.6 team. I don't know why anyone is surprised at that snake's ways, especially when he has the affable but immature SirScoots working for him.
Holy uninformed post, clearly you have no idea how the CS 1.6 situation went down and are looking to simply appropriate the event as part of a flimsy argument that suggests that mainstream business isn't cutthroat? WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? Global corporations don't give a shit about ethics or morality when it comes to capitalizing on profit opportunities and new acquisitions. US corporations moving production facilities overseas, avoiding billions of dollars in federal taxes, hell even the Korean company Samsung is famous for pretty much out and out stealing Apple's designs. Do you even know what a hostile takeover is? They happen all the time and entire multi million companies are pieced out and sold at the cost of thousands of jobs, usually in the name of market reduction or simple corporate advancement. Wake up man, businesses are not meant to be friends, they are meant to conduct business.
Maybe in your twisted lassaiz-faire Americanism they are, but I see no reason to simply accept that as moral or ethically sound. People are pissed because everybody knows that businesses act immorally. Most countries (read: not America) have government regulation of the private sector to a fairly significant degree.
Mainstream business is cutthroat to a point, but that doesn't change the fact that unethical decisions shouldn't be looked down upon just because they're the standard. I'll also point out that I was talking about the public sphere, not closed-door dealings.
As for your drivel about the CS situation, I'm not even going to honour your defense of EG's management, because it's a well-known fact that they steal players in virtually every game. No idea what that has to do with business being not cutthroat (if anything it suggests the opposite).
This whole nonsense of "businesses are not meant to be friends" stinks of Ayn Rand, and is nothing more than the legitimization of anti-social disorder masquerading under the apathy which permeates American private sector politics. Yeah, corporations do evil and corrupt shit all the time. Guess what? That's bad. Saying 'oh, it's the way business work' does not indemnify you from anyone with a moral compass. So sit the fuck down.
"I take it that you've never been involved in business. Even on Wall Street, companies are ALWAYS respectful of each other in the public sphere."-hey man you said it, glad you've doubled back.
My point was not that business ethics or a lack thereof is some excuse for the manner in which EG conducted their business, I simply think that using silly analogies to Wall Street and imaginary "standards" does no one any good when it comes to fleshing out the business scene of Sc2 globally. Consider the mere fact that TSL did not have Puma under contract, clearly this indicates that we are dealing with an incredibly isolated and unique case, considering that the vast majority of businesses with any sense slap contracts down on assets ASAP.
As to your discussion of a moral compass, don't you think that recognition of the individual requires at least some consideration? Based on your posts, you consider the team structure in Korea to be some sort of moral authority, one which supersedes the rights of an individual. Whether or not this is actually the case (the creation KESPA in Sc1 seems to suggest no) remains to be seen, and the insistence that contacting PUMA about PUMA's situation is somehow wrong makes no sense within the framework of individual liberty being supreme.
I'm not saying that Puma shouldn't have been allowed to be acquired by EG, or that TSL should have resisted. I would have been equally angry had Lee been approached by EG, with Puma accepting their offer, and refused. I'm angry now because for all of the damage control and loopholes being paraded about, everyone knows that Puma was for all intents and purposes a member of TSL. When he was in NASL, everyone knew him as TSL Puma. If you asked what team he was on, the answer would be "TSL." Again, I'm not saying EG did anything illegal, but they certainly spat in the face of Coach Lee, who at the very least deserved to be approached as professional, because that's just the way businesses on equal footing (I mean in terms of scope, not finances) do things.
I don't think that the team structure needs to supersede the rights of an individual. You're misunderstanding my point. I'm saying that EG handled the situation unprofessionally, because they completely ignored the fact that Puma belonged to, or at least was associated with, a team.
I've said it many times and I'll say it again: pretending that puma was a free agent in the same sense that someone who is teamless is a free agent is disingenuous and not indicative of the way in which most people (including most Koreans, by the look of things) look at teams. EG, assuming they are comprised of human beings, should understand this and act accordingly, and through above-the-table channels. At the very least, EG could have said "we'll be talking to Coach Lee about our intentions for recruiting you before anything happens." But no, that would have required too much, wouldn't it? Stop kidding yourselves.
It sounds as though there is a very real possibility that they said this to Puma, only for him to suggest that he broach the subject with his coach. The fact of the matter is we have very little concrete evidence regarding exactly how Puma was approached, but if he suggested that he take the lead on discussing the situation with his coach how can one fault EG for catering to his wishes? Furthermore, the nebulous nature of the whole transaction indicates that a reasonable approach is one of forbearance; Puma's perspective on the whole matter woud help a great deal.
On July 24 2011 03:58 PHC wrote: Some of you are so blinded by your support and defense of EG it makes me fucking sick to my stomach.
At this point it doesn't really matter who was contracted or uncontracted. The damage has already been done to the scene. This is so much bigger than this one single incident.
And some of you are blinded by your desire to see the world up in arms over ever tiny thing. I'll admit I rather enjoy the TL posts where someone ascertains a macroscopic perspective on e-sports in general, as though they at once can know the wishes and outlooks of every person involved, but things are not so simple. Like I said before, a little forbearance would do the TL community a world of good, there's a reason why the trope of a guy touting the end of the world on the street corner is a tired one.
On July 24 2011 03:58 PHC wrote: Some of you are so blinded by your support and defense of EG it makes me fucking sick to my stomach.
At this point it doesn't really matter who was contracted or uncontracted. The damage has already been done to the scene. This is so much bigger than this one single incident.
And you're blinded by your wish to demonize EG as the big corporate bad guys. All of this drama boils down to Coach Lee being incredibly unprofessional and whining about all of this on a public forum, which is most definitely not the place for it, this cannot be argued. Sure it would have been courtesy to let TSL know they were interested in their player, and I can't imagine they would have let PuMa sign a contract without letting them know it. Should they have contacted TSL before telling PuMa they were interested in him? Absolutely not. Why should they? TSL have no claim to the player and I'm sure before things would have gone any further they'd at least like to know if the player himself was interested. Also given the reactions they'd received from other Korean teams when they showed interest in players what response could they expect? "Hi Coach, we want to sign PuMa, is that cool?" "No" "Okay, thanks."
It's funny that people actually were fooled by this interview and reinforced this idea that EG are the bullies stealing from poor little TSL in their troubled time, but really the aim of this interview was to distract the retarded denizens of the internet that Coach Lee fucked up more than anyone else. "Boohoo pity us, forget that I'm the cause of this massive,unnecessary shitstorm and pity me instead waaaah". Also this happy-happy-family-TSL illusion that people seem to have, If Coach Lee gave a flying fuck about PuMa he'd never have slung shit allover this huge opportunity of career advancement(whether it was distasteful in his opinion or not), that was a nice little birthday present for PuMa, wasn't it? There's been so much dribble posted on these forums by clueless sheep who for some reason have a righteous fury over something they should not even know about, let alone attempt to have an opinion on.
On July 24 2011 04:14 Klipsys wrote: I don't understand what people are nitpicking about. This was 100% unprofessional on every conceivable level.
EDIT-There isn't a single plausible excuse that anyone from EG or their representatives can rely on. It was ultimately their responsibility to ensure there would be no bad blood, and they failed miserably. This entire situation has set Western esports back about ten steps.
I completely disagree. TSL's coach Lee started the shitstorm before Puma was ever signed, before the deal was even finalized. If anyone was unprofessional in this matter it is TSL's manager.
Put yourself in Puma's shoes. You are in a team who doesn't pay you, or doesn't even have you signed, also the said team is falling apart by hemoraging other top players. A stronger team who's willing to pay you approaches you about the potential contract. Your current manager starts the Internet shitstorm. Would this be in your best interest as a player? If anyone is unprofessional it is coach Lee.
On July 24 2011 03:58 PHC wrote: Some of you are so blinded by your support and defense of EG it makes me fucking sick to my stomach.
At this point it doesn't really matter who was contracted or uncontracted. The damage has already been done to the scene. This is so much bigger than this one single incident.
And you're blinded by your wish to demonize EG as the big corporate bad guys. All of this drama boils down to Coach Lee being incredibly unprofessional and whining about all of this on a public forum, which is most definitely not the place for it, this cannot be argued. Sure it would have been courtesy to let TSL know they were interested in their player, and I can't imagine they would have let PuMa sign a contract without letting them know it. Should they have contacted TSL before telling PuMa they were interested in him? Absolutely not. Why should they? TSL have no claim to the player and I'm sure before things would have gone any further they'd at least like to know if the player himself was interested. Also given the reactions they'd received from other Korean teams when they showed interest in players what response could they expect? "Hi Coach, we want to sign PuMa, is that cool?" "No" "Okay, thanks."
It's funny that people actually were fooled by this interview and reinforced this idea that EG are the bullies stealing from poor little TSL in their troubled time, but really the aim of this interview was to distract the retarded denizens of the internet that Coach Lee fucked up more than anyone else. "Boohoo pity us, forget that I'm the cause of this massive,unnecessary shitstorm and pity me instead waaaah". Also this happy-happy-family-TSL illusion that people seem to have, If Coach Lee gave a flying fuck about PuMa he'd never have slung shit allover this huge opportunity of career advancement(whether it was distasteful in his opinion or not), that was a nice little birthday present for PuMa, wasn't it? There's been so much dribble posted on these forums by clueless sheep who for some reason have a righteous fury over something they should not even know about, let alone attempt to have an opinion on.
holy shit....you are a man of reason. I though I lost hope in this forum but I'm glad they're people like you here. I sometimes want to punch some of these idiotic poster because of what they write up.
On July 24 2011 04:14 Klipsys wrote: I don't understand what people are nitpicking about. This was 100% unprofessional on every conceivable level.
EDIT-There isn't a single plausible excuse that anyone from EG or their representatives can rely on. It was ultimately their responsibility to ensure there would be no bad blood, and they failed miserably. This entire situation has set Western esports back about ten steps.
I completely disagree. TSL's coach Lee started the shitstorm before Puma was ever signed, before the deal was even finalized. If anyone was unprofessional in this matter it is TSL's manager.
Both sides acted unprofessionally, but EG was in the wrong even speaking to a player without informing the team they were interested in him. Without contracts it really comes down to courtesy, which EG clearly doesn't seem to have for TSL (or perhaps the entire Korean scene). What are the odds now that a single person from EG gets invited to GSL? Why would the Korean scene do anything for them now after this? Reading the Translated PlayXP Article, it seems like not a single person who posted agrees with EG or their actions, and most likely, are going to now use this incident to cast a shadow on all Western E-Sports teams.
Let's really up the ante, does anyone think Team Liquid would attempt to do this to anyone in oGs? Like literally not tell Spunky ANYTHING and just take MC or whomever?
I don't really care that EG did this, they exercised a shrewd and competitive business move. It's just upsetting that there is so little respect shown to either side.
Put yourself in Puma's shoes. You are in a team who doesn't pay you, or doesn't even have you signed, also the said team is falling apart by hemoraging other top players. A stronger team who's willing to pay you approaches you about the potential contract. Your current manager starts the Internet shitstorm. Would this be in your best interest as a player? If anyone is unprofessional it is coach Lee.
Sorry but the entire country of Korea seems to disagree with you. Our own ideas about self preservation don't seem to translate there. According to my S.Korean friends, Puma has disgraced himself, and EG is now pretty much despised.
Edit-My friend just messaged my facebook that people in the PC bang are all talking about EG and how they're not going to watch NASL next season because of this. Probably BS but still, they really pissed off people over there with this move.
On July 24 2011 03:58 PHC wrote: Some of you are so blinded by your support and defense of EG it makes me fucking sick to my stomach.
At this point it doesn't really matter who was contracted or uncontracted. The damage has already been done to the scene. This is so much bigger than this one single incident.
Oh god stop being a drama queen. You're almost saying " how dare you pick the opposite side of the argument against me!" It's so immature. It's really odd to see Koreans so upset when they did so little to actually keep their player in the first place and weren't willing to try and be competitive financially for him. If they don't have enough money and simply wish him well that's one thing, but to demand his compliance with a team he has no legal obligation could be viewed as just as selfish as Puma wanting to dictate his own future. Korea needs to understand international business really does involve entirely different people and cultures then themselves.
Then there's one last thing, if Puma knew this would be that big of a deal he should have emphasized that to EG, otherwise they see him as a free agent with no other outside parties that need to be dealt with. It's pretty simple because the only circumstance I see EG really stepping on people's toes legitimately with no defense and excuse is if Puma told them that it would cause a shit storm if they didnt take to the team/coach just to let him understand what they were doing and to keep him involved in the process. That would be a dick move because it would be them ignoring the player's requests before they even signed him.
On July 24 2011 04:14 Klipsys wrote: I don't understand what people are nitpicking about. This was 100% unprofessional on every conceivable level.
EDIT-There isn't a single plausible excuse that anyone from EG or their representatives can rely on. It was ultimately their responsibility to ensure there would be no bad blood, and they failed miserably. This entire situation has set Western esports back about ten steps.
I completely disagree. TSL's coach Lee started the shitstorm before Puma was ever signed, before the deal was even finalized. If anyone was unprofessional in this matter it is TSL's manager.
Both sides acted unprofessionally, but EG was in the wrong even speaking to a player without informing the team they were interested in him. Without contracts it really comes down to courtesy, which EG clearly doesn't seem to have for TSL (or perhaps the entire Korean scene). What are the odds now that a single person from EG gets invited to GSL? Why would the Korean scene do anything for them now after this? Reading the Translated PlayXP Article, it seems like not a single person who posted agrees with EG or their actions, and most likely, are going to now use this incident to cast a shadow on all Western E-Sports teams.
Let's really up the ante, does anyone think Team Liquid would attempt to do this to anyone in oGs? Like literally not tell Spunky ANYTHING and just take MC or whomever?
I don't really care that EG did this, they exercised a shrewd and competitive business move. It's just upsetting that there is so little respect shown to either side.
I don't see a big deal in approaching a player first. It's in players best interest after all..I could care less if coaches and team leadership get offended. TL and oGs are partners so you gave a bad example, while EG and TSL are competitors. People are butthurt for no reason here.
If I ran a team and I knew MC didn't have a contract, of course I would talk to him first. Why would I bother with Spunky at that point? I like Spunky but this is between (me a hypothetical team manager) and MC and it has nothing to do with oGs. Now if MC and oGs had a contract that would be a different story, in this case I would have no choice but to talk to Spunky.
People need to get off this politeness wagon, we're talking about a competitive sport here.
A team recruiters job is to get the best talent. Being super polite doesn't help them accomplish that goal.
On July 24 2011 04:19 FeeL_ThE_RusH wrote: Sure it would have been courtesy to let TSL know they were interested in their player, and I can't imagine they would have let PuMa sign a contract without letting them know it.
On July 24 2011 04:19 FeeL_ThE_RusH wrote: Also given the reactions they'd received from other Korean teams when they showed interest in players what response could they expect? "Hi Coach, we want to sign PuMa, is that cool?" "No" "Okay, thanks."
I believe if EG were to expect that response from TSL but decided to try and sign Puma anyways, they wouldn't have let TSL know. That statement seems to suggest otherwise.
By expecting that response and doing it anyways, implies that EG is doing this without TSL's knowledge and consent. They're doing it without TSL knowing, because TSL wouldn't have let them otherwise.
However, I don't think it was EG's intention to do this behind the coach's back. EG and Puma agreed that Puma will talk to the coach with Puma still unsigned. EG should have sent a representative instead.
Put yourself in Puma's shoes. You are in a team who doesn't pay you, or doesn't even have you signed, also the said team is falling apart by hemoraging other top players. A stronger team who's willing to pay you approaches you about the potential contract. Your current manager starts the Internet shitstorm. Would this be in your best interest as a player? If anyone is unprofessional it is coach Lee.
Sorry but the entire country of Korea seems to disagree with you. Our own ideas about self preservation don't seem to translate there. According to my S.Korean friends, Puma has disgraced himself, and EG is now pretty much despised.
Edit-My friend just messaged my facebook that people in the PC bang are all talking about EG and how they're not going to watch NASL next season because of this. Probably BS but still, they really pissed off people over there with this move.
Again, somehow some people are able to understand the climate of an ENTIRE country, with millions of people, based on opinions of friends and forum posts. Oh lawd.
On July 24 2011 03:58 PHC wrote: Some of you are so blinded by your support and defense of EG it makes me fucking sick to my stomach.
At this point it doesn't really matter who was contracted or uncontracted. The damage has already been done to the scene. This is so much bigger than this one single incident.
And some of you are blinded by your desire to see the world up in arms over ever tiny thing. I'll admit I rather enjoy the TL posts where someone ascertains a macroscopic perspective on e-sports in general, as though they at once can know the wishes and outlooks of every person involved, but things are not so simple. Like I said before, a little forbearance would do the TL community a world of good, there's a reason why the trope of a guy touting the end of the world on the street corner is a tired one.
edit: sorry double post
Pretentiousness aside, the last thing I'm doing is screaming the end of the world telling people to be saved by Jesus. Gimme a break. The 10% that frequented this site before the release SC2 understand that a united Korea when it comes to Starcraft is not something to be scoffed at. Does Korean nationalism make sense? Maybe not in our eyes. But, the fact that Koreans are having an emergency meeting to "prevent foreign teams from stealing their players" is a cause for concern, is it not?
Am I in approval of Coach Lee for lashing out publicly? Fuck no, but it really doesn't matter if you think if EG or TSL is in the "wrong" in the long run. Fact is, to put it bluntly, international esports for SC2 made a ton of progress in one year and this single incident sets it back 8.
What can we hope for? After the two year exclusivity contract with Gretech expires, we can hope that KeSPA/OGN/MBC and Blizzard come to some form of an agreement so SC2 gets more exposure in Korea. But until then, the Korean players will be locked down and the only chance you will see one on a foreign team is if it is wealthy enough for the transfer/loan.
On July 24 2011 04:24 GoldenGun wrote: holy shit....you are a man of reason. I though I lost hope in this forum but I'm glad they're people like you here. I sometimes want to punch some of these idiotic poster because of what they write up.
Instead of wanting to punch me, how about we add to the discussion and give me some perspective. Manner up.
On July 24 2011 03:58 PHC wrote: Some of you are so blinded by your support and defense of EG it makes me fucking sick to my stomach.
At this point it doesn't really matter who was contracted or uncontracted. The damage has already been done to the scene. This is so much bigger than this one single incident.
And some of you are blinded by your desire to see the world up in arms over ever tiny thing. I'll admit I rather enjoy the TL posts where someone ascertains a macroscopic perspective on e-sports in general, as though they at once can know the wishes and outlooks of every person involved, but things are not so simple. Like I said before, a little forbearance would do the TL community a world of good, there's a reason why the trope of a guy touting the end of the world on the street corner is a tired one.
edit: sorry double post
Pretentiousness aside, the last thing I'm doing is screaming the end of the world telling people to be saved by Jesus. Gimme a break. The 10% that frequented this site before the release SC2 understand that a united Korea when it comes to Starcraft is not something to be scoffed at. Does Korean nationalism make sense? Maybe not in our eyes. But, the fact that Koreans are having an emergency meeting to "prevent foreign teams from stealing their players" is a cause for concern, is it not?
Am I in approval of Coach Lee for lashing out publicly? Fuck no, but it really doesn't matter if you think if EG or TSL is in the "wrong" in the long run. Fact is, to put it bluntly, international esports for SC2 made a ton of progress in one year and this single incident sets it back 8.
What can we hope for? After the two year exclusivity contract with Gretech expires, we can hope that KeSPA/OGN/MBC and Blizzard come to some form of an agreement so SC2 gets more exposure in Korea. But until then, the Korean players will be locked down and the only chance you will see one on a foreign team is if it is wealthy enough for the transfer/loan.
The agreement between compLexity and MVP being announced right after the Puma incident suggests that the Korean response to the foreigner scene is anything but united. Take the distinctive separation between the Sc1 and Sc2 scenes. Sure, the Sc1 scene is united in its taking place entirely in Korea, but Sc2 is already far outside those bounds, and the fact that Sc2 is not nearly as popular as Sc1 indicates that national boundaries are hardly a requisite for success. Passionate Sc2 gamers/teams are going to look for opportunity, and the actions of oGs, MVP, and fOu indicate that many frontrunners of the Sc2 scene are willing to look outside the boundaries of SK to find said opportunity.
Put yourself in Puma's shoes. You are in a team who doesn't pay you, or doesn't even have you signed, also the said team is falling apart by hemoraging other top players. A stronger team who's willing to pay you approaches you about the potential contract. Your current manager starts the Internet shitstorm. Would this be in your best interest as a player? If anyone is unprofessional it is coach Lee.
Sorry but the entire country of Korea seems to disagree with you. Our own ideas about self preservation don't seem to translate there. According to my S.Korean friends, Puma has disgraced himself, and EG is now pretty much despised.
Edit-My friend just messaged my facebook that people in the PC bang are all talking about EG and how they're not going to watch NASL next season because of this. Probably BS but still, they really pissed off people over there with this move.
Again, somehow some people are able to understand the climate of an ENTIRE country, with millions of people, based on opinions of friends and forum posts. Oh lawd.
Honestly I don't think any Korean needs to read any forum posts to understand what millions of people think.
Actually, make that what 1.5+ billion would feel. What Puma and EG did would be considered extremely disgraceful not only in Korea, but also China, Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc. He violated the trust he had with an (parent/elder/teacher/mentor), someone who took care of him. This doesn't mean he's restricted from joining another team, but he (and EG) need to show at least a sense and respect and courtesy to the coach.
The "it's just business" or "it's Puma's right" argument comes from Westerners who have a hard time understanding and agreeing with the East Asian thought. Yes, it is Puma's right to leave TSL and sign with EG. But to East Asians, your duty to those who take care of you is more important than individual freedom and rights.
On July 24 2011 05:44 dookudooku wrote: The "it's just business" or "it's Puma's right" argument comes from Westerners who have a hard time understanding and agreeing with the East Asian thought. Yes, it is Puma's right to leave TSL and sign with EG. But to East Asians, your duty to those who take care of you is more important than individual freedom and rights.
I would like to ask you, How long does that duty last? If Puma would have said to his coach "I want to join EG, but I want to carry out my duty for TSL" for how long should he stay on a team before it's acceptable for him to leave? As there was no contract with TSL, for how long should Puma have needed to stay with TSL by this East-Asian sense of duty to his '(parent/elder/teacher/mentor)' ? A month? A year? Rest of his life? What would you consider to be an acceptable timeframe?
--
Also some people are implying that Puma owns something to TSL because they "took care of him" but surely everyone understands that while TSL was providing Puma with great environment to train, Puma himself was providing himself as a training partner to a team helping them grow into what they are today.
Also I find it quite interesting that in a playxp interview Coach Lee tells Puma and I quote article "I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this" and then he himself goes and makes majority of that negative feedback. To me it seems like Coach Lee would make a great Scumbag meme picture with text "Warns that there will be negative feedback - Creates all the negative feedback himself". No respect for that kind of behavior.
Also this meeting that is going to happen, won't really matter much. Sure probably every good player who is active Now will be signed on a contract and maybe it even will mean that they won't be able to participate in International tournaments, who knows. But please do remember that Players are NEVER forced to sign any contract.
Only reason why KESPA was able to force their players into ironclad contracts is the lack of true alternative to South Korean SC:BW scene. There is no SC:BW scene outside South Korea, so SC:BW players had no alternative than to accept whatever bullshit KESPA fed them.
The way I see it, eSports (StarCraft 2) grew to what it was 2010/early 2011 in EU/US without any help from South Korean players. And by that I mean myriad of tournaments we have right now that do just fine without South Korean players. If there would be 0 players coming from GSL to MLG I would still watch it, because I like the game, not South Koreans.
And I for one am Sure that we will grow no matter what South Korea decided to do. I'm sure hope that what happens in South Korea will have absolutely nothing to do with what happens outside South Korea.
Exactly, Coach Lee is really the cause of everything bad that's happened. If he didn't flip out and directly cause all of these problems himself, none of this would have happened. I can't take the whole fatherly figure shit seriously when he went out of his way to purposely: A: Make Puma feel like shit for wanting to better his career, B: Piling on more stress onto Puma, C: Starting a shit storm out of spite for his player that he apparently loved so much.
If he's a fatherly figure, he's certainly an abusive one at that.
Wow, Clide and Killer seem like really good guys after this whole ordeal. I hope that TSL gets its priorities straightened as Lee clearly wants to see something changed.
To be honest this news has been around for a few days and i haven't posted till now because i wanted to be sure in what i think, I really think they should not be approaching players on contract, but as puma was not on contract due to financial situations or "trust" whatever reason this is not wrong by EG and its crazy to see this reaction by the Korean community but i think its for the following i hope!
regarding clide and sangho who i think were on contracts whoever approached them is disgusting!
Hope it doesn't go to more crazy then this, already Koreans and foreign teams going together
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side
They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.
No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.
I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team
I hope you're not talking about coL.cs, because they all have nothing but bad things to say about Jason Lake.
EG should have definitely talked to TSL about the transfer, but everyone is demonizing them as if they're "stealing" players that aren't contracted and would rather be with EG than their team. The only party that's losing out is the one that decided not to contract their players.
On July 24 2011 06:51 UkGracken wrote: To be honest this news has been around for a few days and i haven't posted till now because i wanted to be sure in what i think, I really think they should not be approaching players on contract, but as puma was not on contract due to financial situations or "trust" whatever reason this is not wrong by EG and its crazy to see this reaction by the Korean community but i think its for the following i hope!
regarding clide and sangho who i think were on contracts whoever approached them is disgusting!
Hope it doesn't go to more crazy then this, already Koreans and foreign teams going together
Mmm, no. Approaching players on contract is fine. Persuading them to do something that they don't want to do isn't, but there's nothing wrong with telling a player you're interested in them and giving them an offer. It's up to that player to make the decision, weigh what they're currently being given and what they're currently being offered.
They can then decide what to do after their contract expires, or speak to their team themselves, contact the other team, and see if something between both teams can be done to terminate the contract prematurely.
This is quite a dark time for TSL and Starcraft 2's fanbase towards EG.
I'm hoping they will recover to be the top 3 teams in SC2 and I really hope SC2's fanbase will increase dramatically to make it a lot easier for pro gamers.
On July 24 2011 05:44 dookudooku wrote: The "it's just business" or "it's Puma's right" argument comes from Westerners who have a hard time understanding and agreeing with the East Asian thought. Yes, it is Puma's right to leave TSL and sign with EG. But to East Asians, your duty to those who take care of you is more important than individual freedom and rights.
I would like to ask you, How long does that duty last? If Puma would have said to his coach "I want to join EG, but I want to carry out my duty for TSL" for how long should he stay on a team before it's acceptable for him to leave? As there was no contract with TSL, for how long should Puma have needed to stay with TSL by this East-Asian sense of duty to his '(parent/elder/teacher/mentor)' ? A month? A year? Rest of his life? What would you consider to be an acceptable timeframe?
--
Also some people are implying that Puma owns something to TSL because they "took care of him" but surely everyone understands that while TSL was providing Puma with great environment to train, Puma himself was providing himself as a training partner to a team helping them grow into what they are today.
Also I find it quite interesting that in a playxp interview Coach Lee tells Puma and I quote article "I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this" and then he himself goes and makes majority of that negative feedback. To me it seems like Coach Lee would make a great Scumbag meme picture with text "Warns that there will be negative feedback - Creates all the negative feedback himself". No respect for that kind of behavior.
Also this meeting that is going to happen, won't really matter much. Sure probably every good player who is active Now will be signed on a contract and maybe it even will mean that they won't be able to participate in International tournaments, who knows. But please do remember that Players are NEVER forced to sign any contract.
Only reason why KESPA was able to force their players into ironclad contracts is the lack of true alternative to South Korean SC:BW scene. There is no SC:BW scene outside South Korea, so SC:BW players had no alternative than to accept whatever bullshit KESPA fed them.
The way I see it, eSports (StarCraft 2) grew to what it was 2010/early 2011 in EU/US without any help from South Korean players. And by that I mean myriad of tournaments we have right now that do just fine without South Korean players. If there would be 0 players coming from GSL to MLG I would still watch it, because I like the game, not South Koreans.
And I for one am Sure that we will grow no matter what South Korea decided to do. I'm sure hope that what happens in South Korea will have absolutely nothing to do with what happens outside South Korea.
I'm glad you asked about the timeframe, because it me a chance to explain.
Things aren't so black and white in Asian culture. Western thinking is about freedom, with laws to maintain order. Asians focus more on tradition and judgement.
As an example, as a grown-up, if you do something that your parents look down upon, it's often preferable to lie to your parents rather than hurt their feelings. That doesn't mean honestly isn't important among Asians. And maybe you shouldn't have done what you did (something as simple as going to a bar can be viewed very negatively by parents). But the important thing is to realize what your action means to your parents, think about how they would feel, and respond correctly. It's a very delicate process that forces each individual to think long and hard.
Puma's duty to his coach and TSL DOES NOT mean he can't leave. I even said so in my original post. Duty does that mean you have to follow everything your parent/teacher/elder says. Instead, it's about showing respect and a real, genuine care and concern. I'm sure Puma could have left it a way that without bringing shame. Coach Lee's response suggests that it was the manner in which he left that infuriated him. I think none of us know exactly what happened, so we can't be sure. Maybe the coach is crazy. But something simple as treating the team to a nice dinner makes a big difference.
On July 24 2011 05:44 dookudooku wrote: The "it's just business" or "it's Puma's right" argument comes from Westerners who have a hard time understanding and agreeing with the East Asian thought. Yes, it is Puma's right to leave TSL and sign with EG. But to East Asians, your duty to those who take care of you is more important than individual freedom and rights.
I would like to ask you, How long does that duty last? If Puma would have said to his coach "I want to join EG, but I want to carry out my duty for TSL" for how long should he stay on a team before it's acceptable for him to leave? As there was no contract with TSL, for how long should Puma have needed to stay with TSL by this East-Asian sense of duty to his '(parent/elder/teacher/mentor)' ? A month? A year? Rest of his life? What would you consider to be an acceptable timeframe?
--
Also some people are implying that Puma owns something to TSL because they "took care of him" but surely everyone understands that while TSL was providing Puma with great environment to train, Puma himself was providing himself as a training partner to a team helping them grow into what they are today.
Also I find it quite interesting that in a playxp interview Coach Lee tells Puma and I quote article "I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this" and then he himself goes and makes majority of that negative feedback. To me it seems like Coach Lee would make a great Scumbag meme picture with text "Warns that there will be negative feedback - Creates all the negative feedback himself". No respect for that kind of behavior.
Also this meeting that is going to happen, won't really matter much. Sure probably every good player who is active Now will be signed on a contract and maybe it even will mean that they won't be able to participate in International tournaments, who knows. But please do remember that Players are NEVER forced to sign any contract.
Only reason why KESPA was able to force their players into ironclad contracts is the lack of true alternative to South Korean SC:BW scene. There is no SC:BW scene outside South Korea, so SC:BW players had no alternative than to accept whatever bullshit KESPA fed them.
The way I see it, eSports (StarCraft 2) grew to what it was 2010/early 2011 in EU/US without any help from South Korean players. And by that I mean myriad of tournaments we have right now that do just fine without South Korean players. If there would be 0 players coming from GSL to MLG I would still watch it, because I like the game, not South Koreans.
And I for one am Sure that we will grow no matter what South Korea decided to do. I'm sure hope that what happens in South Korea will have absolutely nothing to do with what happens outside South Korea.
I'm glad you asked about the timeframe.
Things aren't so black and white in Asian culture. Western thinking is about freedom, with laws to maintain order. Asians focus more on tradition and judgement.
As an example, as a grown-up, if you do something that your parents look down upon, it's often preferable to lie to your parents rather than hurt their feelings. That doesn't mean honestly isn't important among Asians. And maybe you shouldn't have done what you did (something as simple as going to a bar can be viewed very negatively by parents). But the important thing is to realize what your action means to your parents, think about how they would feel, and respond correctly. It's a very delicate process that forces each individual to think long and hard.
Puma's duty to his coach and TSL DOES NOT mean he can't leave. I even said so in my original post. Duty DOES NOT mean you have to follow everything your parent/teacher/elder says. Instead, it's about showing respect and a real, genuine care and concern. And following what others say is part of that, but there is NO NUMBER or PERCENTAGE that can be given.
I'm sure Puma could have left it a way that without bringing shame. Coach Lee's response suggests that it was the manner in which he left that infuriated him. I think none of us know exactly what happened, so we can't be sure. Maybe the coach is crazy. But something simple as treating the team to a nice dinner, or a gift, makes a big difference in these situations.
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
Unless you want something back from that community at 1 point or another, which they do.
So in conclusion, EG is just not very bright thinking they can snatch like that without it being a ''big deal''.
Agree... you don't pull a @?!#$%? move cos you can... the future implications are important and even businesses like states have to take that into consideration and do all things diplomatically
On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote: Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
I take it that you've never been involved in business. Even on Wall Street, companies are ALWAYS respectful of each other in the public sphere. They don't want to risk poisoning their brand with stupid shit like this. How many fans do you think EG earned with this? Not very fucking many.
But this is Alex Garfield, the guy who ninja'd a whole CS 1.6 team. I don't know why anyone is surprised at that snake's ways, especially when he has the affable but immature SirScoots working for him.
Wall Street? You say Wall Street cares about what people think of them? Do you not remember quite a few companies putting out fake financial reports to make it seem like the company was doing well meanwhile they're not only doing poorly, but they're broke? I'm sure everyone was fine with losing all of their invested money though.
EG earned EVERY puma fan. I doubt anyone was like man they went out and got a good player who was loosely associated with a team let's not root for them anymore. You also know little about the CS situation, and SirScoots.
Your post is not only inaccurate, but hostile and immature.
I guarantee I know more about Scoots's history than you ever will. EG has a reputation for underhanded tactics and rude management. Do you seriously think this is the first publicity stunt they've bungled?
Your comments about Wall St actually prove my point (falsifying records to ensure a public image, etc).
Sure name what you know about Scoot. Go ahead everything that you know is public knowledge.
How is it underhanded/rude to go for a guy who is underpaid offer him more money to come to his team while he is technically a free agent. Happens in football all the time.
Those companies on Wall Street didn't falsify records to ensure a good public image, they did it to screw people out of money (which btw when people get screwed out of money it winds up looking bad for the company that screwed them).
Glad you're angry for whatever reason, but if a company is too cheap/dumb to have a decent contract with a player, then they need to accept the results. Also from TSL's manager(?) post I don't exactly think the team was being run well.
On July 24 2011 12:14 12oz wrote: i don't really understand all the eg hate. Puma made a decision, eg didn't force him to do anything he didn't want to.
Lol, I agree that Puma was at fault, but if you think EG is innocent, your disillusion. According to your logic, if I offer money to a hitman to kill someone, I did nothing wrong. I didn't force him to kill the person, I just gave him the option. I know my example is an extreme example, but you can't say EG did nothing wrong.
On July 23 2011 10:07 Sylvr wrote: You're assuming an awful lot about human nature. The stories and articles about people giving up opportunities and making sacrifices for their teams and friends make headlines and the Silver Screen because they aren't the norm. For every guy in a platoon that jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, there are a dozen or more that didn't (and likely countless platoons where NOBODY did where everyone just got a body full of shrapnel).
Where do I make a single assumption? My point is that it is reasonable for coach Lee to feel that way because I'm able to actually look at both sides of the situation. I never said "coach Lee is right and EG is evil." In fact, EG's position is also reasonable. The problem here is that people here are unable to properly examine the big picture to get a true perspective of the situation.
The main source of confusion and drama is the misuse and misunderstanding of the term wrong. Both parties occupy reasonable positions because the sense of "wrong" felt here is not legalistic or codified wrong, but a more abstract and personal wrong that derives from each individual's personal ordering of values. So, for example:
On July 23 2011 10:07 Sylvr wrote: 1. Was it wrong for Puma to leave TSL?
My answer is no. There is nothing wrong with trying to better your own situation. If you find a better job, nobody can blame you for taking it, even if you've been with your current company for years. It's not betrayal, and that has nothing to do with contracts. You can be friends with people without being on the same team.
Your personal values would note that "There is nothing wrong with trying to better your own situation." Others would feel that certain values transcend this demand for personal improvement, saying that loyalty comes first. You would argue that is wrong, but others would argue that it is right. The point is that either side can have arguments made to logically support them, making both positions tenable as reasonable ones. EG did not any legal contract or law, but it depends upon each individual's perspective on respect/courtesy regarding teams to influence whether or not they committed that more personal "wrong" in terms of respect.
On July 23 2011 10:07 Sylvr wrote: 4. Is TSL's situation a sad sad story?
It sure is. Losing players left and right. Having trouble keeping sponsors and quickly running out of money. Your first big tournament result is followed by some unfortunate news. It's like they were finally on an upswing, and they hit a brick wall. It really is tragic, but one thing I know is that the source of their misfortune is not Puma, and it isn't EG. Lee's coaching has been called into question. TSL's skill level may be to blame. Perhaps it's the Korean SC2 scene in general that is the core of their problems. Or maybe a hundred other things that none of us have any clue about. Coach Lee and TSL are doing an excellent job of painting themselves as the victims, and maybe they think they are, but when I see stories of the players giving back their salaries and stipends to help a faltering team, I don't get all warm and fuzzy inside, and I don't see heroes in the making; I see naive kids who don't know the value of themselves and their money, and incompetent adults who have to be bailed out by their charges.
You yourself concede that their financial issues may be the product of "maybe a hundred other things that none of us have any clue about," yet you simultaneously go on to condemn their actions as "naive kids who don't know the value of themselves and their money, and incompetent adults"? Really? How can a person be incompetent when you yourself admit to not knowing the source of their troubles? Were hundreds of ordinary Americans incompetent because they were poor in the Great Depression? Before you come back claiming that we don't know if TSL is having problems because of the Scene/economy - that's my point, we don't know, so it would be stupid to judge them for being at fault for a problem that you don't understand.
On July 24 2011 12:14 12oz wrote: i don't really understand all the eg hate. Puma made a decision, eg didn't force him to do anything he didn't want to.
Lol, I agree that Puma was at fault, but if you think EG is innocent, your disillusion. According to your logic, if I offer money to a hitman to kill someone, I did nothing wrong. I didn't force him to kill the person, I just gave him the option. I know my example is an extreme example, but you can't say EG did nothing wrong.
Yeah thats just a terrible example because offering someone money to kill someone is well, wrong. Offering someone money to join your team isn't wrong.
Most of you people are stupid, the goal of these teams is to make money and put together the best team they can. He had no contract why would EG talk to TSL management? Puma mad a decision to make more money and have more exposure...what an idiot....how dare he make a decision that makes him more money and furthers along his career! What a bunch of hypocrites,posting all their garbage, shut up and think before you post. Congrats to Puma and EG, best of luck to TSL. Clearly they need to get their crap together, they have lost 4 of their best players.
lol i think its funny how jealous people are of puma actually getting a contract and getting paid what hes worth. this whole trust and faith with no contract is just some socialist bs that is used cause theres no money to pay there players. gratz to PUMA i hope this changes your the life and the money you make off sc2 can help to provide a better life for you and your family.
On July 24 2011 16:08 originalred04 wrote: Most of you people are stupid, the goal of these teams is to make money and put together the best team they can. He had no contract why would EG talk to TSL management? Puma mad a decision to make more money and have more exposure...what an idiot....how dare he make a decision that makes him more money and furthers along his career! What a bunch of hypocrites,posting all their garbage, shut up and think before you post. Congrats to Puma and EG, best of luck to TSL. Clearly they need to get their crap together, they have lost 4 of their best players.
Oh the irony.
If you are unable to reason out anything less superficial, you should refrain from insulting others.
What people don't realize is that the blame doesn't belong to one party. It's really frustrating when one side is basically saying it's all EG's fault - another side is saying it's all Puma's fault - another side is saying it's all TSL's fault. The reality is, whatever bad happened here is because of all three parties. They obviously could have handled it better. The deal itself is great for EG and good for North American teams in general (Also, Puma is being paid more). I love the deal, but I think it could have definitely been handled better.
To those of you who say I don't know what I'm talking about, that's not really relevant - any time one side is extremely unhappy with a deal, it could have been handled better.
EG poached the player without contacting TSL, that i think its un-ethical so i dont like it one bit. TSL didnt had players on contract, they really fkd up in this point.
Yes PuMa was "free" and he wants to change to EG due to pay or whatever reason but for me its the lack of integrity EG had on not telling TSL they aproached him in order for him to change team.
The outcome, most probably, would have been the same since Puma liked EG proposal.
On July 24 2011 16:08 Sky0 wrote: lol i think its funny how jealous people are of puma actually getting a contract and getting paid what hes worth. this whole trust and faith with no contract is just some socialist bs that is used cause theres no money to pay there players. gratz to PUMA i hope this changes your the life and the money you make off sc2 can help to provide a better life for you and your family.
I'm just sad that so many SC2 fans are so obsessed with business and money.
This is why I'm certain we'll never have a 10 year old e-sport scene in the west. It all turns into a superficial business scheme (that doesn't even work) so fast for so many people and teams involved, and it ends by them scraping for money to pay their contracted players in a year or two.
All business is basically about abusing competition and screwing them over in any legal way you can, and EG are the experts in that, they've a habit of buying their way to the top (see CS). This is partly why it's so ironic hearing AG and sirscoots regularly giving people lessons about e-sports on djwheat's shows because in their eyes they are the veterans. They've been there and done that. They know how it's done. They've been part of every long-term successful and popular e-sport scene in the west... oh wait, there are none.
Why would you support this attitude? Why would you welcome this to Starcraft? Is the short term money gain really for a few people really worth all the irreversible damage done by teams and their managers who want to play the role of big businessmen and bring the WORST side of professional sports everywhere they go, and now to SC2? Because my answer is no.
I mean look at EG, they don't even have have a team house or a centralized practice location (they sure keep talking about it a lot though), in one whole year since release they weren't capable of setting up the infrastructure a professional team should have and all their current players are only getting worse and falling increasingly behind the top - but one thing they're relentlessly active in is poaching top players (Idra, Demuslim, now Puma). Are they the example of good business in e-sports with a long term perspective? Again, no.
Every time a fan brings up "business" (especially the kind of business that EG runs) as something positive, I get this sick feeling in my stomach as well as the urge to post yet another reply on this even though I don't fucking want to.
My god people, business is not about "screwing over competition." The GSL, NASL, TSL, IPL, this site I'm posting on right now, even the actual friggin GAME of starcraft are all only possible in the first place because of businesses. There is nothing "superficial" about making money, its literally the only reason any of this exists.
Any long-term solution for making esports viable will involve needing more money. You think the high production value of the GSL is free? Why are you not posting threads about Artosis "selling out" every time he plugs Gatorade, Pepsi, Intel, LG, etc? You think those companies are supporting esports out of the goodness of their hearts? Because they think Starcraft is a fun game, they shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars?
You call these players "professional" gamers, and I think you need to look up what that word means. It doesn't mean you're good at something, or that you necessarily enjoy it, it means that you make money doing it. Period. It pays the bills.
EG did nothing wrong, Puma did nothing wrong, more money and competition between teams makes for a better scene, not a worse one. If you're worried about "ethics" and "loyalty" go watch a high school or college league. But if you want to see e-sports succeed on a legitimate level you need to realize that money is what makes the whole thing possible, and business is how you make money, and there is nothing "evil" about making money providing people with something they want.
On July 24 2011 23:36 samsonasu wrote: My god people, business is not about "screwing over competition." The GSL, NASL, TSL, IPL, this site I'm posting on right now, even the actual friggin GAME of starcraft are all only possible in the first place because of businesses. There is nothing "superficial" about making money, its literally the only reason any of this exists.
Any long-term solution for making esports viable will involve needing more money. You think the high production value of the GSL is free? Why are you not posting threads about Artosis "selling out" every time he plugs Gatorade, Pepsi, Intel, LG, etc? You think those companies are supporting esports out of the goodness of their hearts? Because they think Starcraft is a fun game, they shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars?
You call these players "professional" gamers, and I think you need to look up what that word means. It doesn't mean you're good at something, or that you necessarily enjoy it, it means that you make money doing it. Period. It pays the bills.
EG did nothing wrong, Puma did nothing wrong, more money and competition between teams makes for a better scene, not a worse one. If you're worried about "ethics" and "loyalty" go watch a high school or college league. But if you want to see e-sports succeed on a legitimate level you need to realize that money is what makes the whole thing possible, and business is how you make money, and there is nothing "evil" about making money providing people with something they want.
Yeah sure, TL exist only because of "money"... No it exist because of the dedication of a number of fan who gave a certain number of things and never asked anything back, like most of the greatest competition back in the days. That now you have enough money for big companies to come to this market, that is another matter, and Talin is right when he says that if we do not care about it, it could destroy many things we loved about the RTS community until now.
I'm just sad that so many SC2 fans are so obsessed with business and money.
It's just sad to see so many SC2 fans oblivious to how e-sports content (or any other sport/entertainment) is provided. The GSL, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. aren't charity organizations where some rich guy buys a studio, production crew, and an army of other employees work out of the goodness of their hearts. Just like the players for EG, TL, FnaticMSI, FXOpen, ST, IM etc. aren't foregoing potential careers/jobs to live in poverty playing video games all day.
It's extremely naive to ignore the fact that almost NOTHING in entertainment/sports is going to be provided unless there are businesses willing to use it as an advertising opportunity. Without this relationship between businesses and (e)sports, there would be no professional level (e)sports. Players and fans of any (e)sport who are fortunate enough to have businesses interested in funding their (e)sport through advertising budgets should be thankful. I assure you that there are fans/players for countless other (e)sports that would die for the opportunity to make a living playing their (e)sport as professionals or have limitless viewing access to the professionals of their sport.
This is an amazing time for esports, SC2 specifically, because big name companies are gambling that their advertising budgets will be productive if used to sponsor this game. What's great is that they methods in which they allocate their money is diversifying (from events and teams, to individual players and community media outlets).
Congrats to Puma and EG, this is a step forward in esports. Special recognition should be given to Puma for realizing the atrocity of the current Korean SC2 scene and getting out. The number of Korean players earning sustainable money playing SC2 is extremely small, especially as a percentage of the total talent pool. I think that once this all settles down, there will be many other players waking up to the fact that they aren't being compensated fairly, especially when compared to the international esports market.
i dont see whats so wrong on EGs site. they asked a player to join their team, said player agrees and its the other teams fault for not having a contract. why would they need to ask the coach in that place? he'd obviously say no, because he doesnt want to lose his best player...
I believe that this is just crash of culture being showed in here. It is understandable in United States to directly contact the players or the "workers" for job opportunity instead of talking to the management they currently work under. It is less of a case in Asia where it is more customary to gain insight on all of the opinions instead of just the person they try to hire.
Nice to see that coach Lee recognised through this that SC2 is starting to grow into a professional scene. He definitely handled this whole mess pretty damn badly. Oh well, water under the bridge. Fruitdealer, Tester and Puma are where they want to be, Coach Lee still has a couple good players under contract and will try his best to rebuild the recently flailing TSL.
Good job acquiring a great player and helping to fulfil a young man's ambition, EG.
People don't know your history, for those who mention that EG took Complexity's roster, thats how complexity came to be. Jason Lake was on a shitty team with shitty players, but he had money, so he went around sniping top tier CS players from other teams to join his because he could offer them a few bucks.
EG should have kept thier Original Canadian CS team that started EG in the first place with Stevenson and Lari, they were the best thing to ever happen to EG.
If players aren't on contract who's fault and problem is that? It's business, it's how shit works in every other major sporting organization. Puma was a FREE AGENT, a team made an offer to a FREE AGENT, that FREE AGENT took the offer.
Could it been done differently, absolutely however if Puma straight up told Alex that it was best for him and him alone to approach Mr. Lee then someone please explain to me how any of this is EG's fault or problem?
On July 24 2011 18:30 holyone wrote: You are right Loodah.
EG poached the player without contacting TSL, that i think its un-ethical so i dont like it one bit. TSL didnt had players on contract, they really fkd up in this point.
Yes PuMa was "free" and he wants to change to EG due to pay or whatever reason but for me its the lack of integrity EG had on not telling TSL they aproached him in order for him to change team.
The outcome, most probably, would have been the same since Puma liked EG proposal.
How do you poach a player that isn't signed under a contract? The way I see it PUMA chose to play under TSL with no contract so it's PUMA's choice for who he wants to play for. Had he been under contract then I would understand your comment as un-ethical.
Shame on EG, What about making a campaign explaining this on the sponsor's facebook pages? It would give a bit of justice down there, don't you think ?
On July 25 2011 02:32 Mackh wrote: Shame on EG, What about making a campaign explaining this on the sponsor's facebook pages? It would give a bit of justice down there, don't you think ?
Why not just go kick Puna in the nuts as well for wanting more money?
Dunno if I need to grow up, maybe But if the sponsors are unaware of what they actually encourage and the image that is resulting, it would be just fair to warn them
On July 25 2011 02:59 Mackh wrote: Dunno if I need to grow up, maybe But if the sponsors are unaware of what they actually encourage and the image that is resulting, it would be just fair to warn them
It'd be a good suggestion to not work with TSL, as any disagreement is going to end up splashed all over websites.
The only thing EG did wrong was trust Puma's version of the conversation with Lee was accurate.
On July 25 2011 01:04 ProBot wrote: People don't know your history, for those who mention that EG took Complexity's roster, thats how complexity came to be. Jason Lake was on a shitty team with shitty players, but he had money, so he went around sniping top tier CS players from other teams to join his because he could offer them a few bucks.
EG should have kept thier Original Canadian CS team that started EG in the first place with Stevenson and Lari, they were the best thing to ever happen to EG.
If players aren't on contract who's fault and problem is that? It's business, it's how shit works in every other major sporting organization. Puma was a FREE AGENT, a team made an offer to a FREE AGENT, that FREE AGENT took the offer.
Could it been done differently, absolutely however if Puma straight up told Alex that it was best for him and him alone to approach Mr. Lee then someone please explain to me how any of this is EG's fault or problem?
I agree with you about the Stevenson/Lari team, the stupidest thing I ever heard Wheat say was some rambling 'could you ever have imagined EG having such an amazing team' like they weren't one of the best performing NA teams with consistently solid LAN results and the best Canadian team for half a decade.
I also don't really get why Col's old roster choosing to go somewhere else makes EG the bad guys over.. Col's old roster for not being grateful to the support Lake gave them.
Sad story indeed But keep it up coach Lee ! TSL is a great team and I hope the best for your team in the future ! Starcraft 2 popularity in growing fast around the world and i'm sure it will transition in korea from sc1 to sc2. I really believe sc2 has an amaizing future in esport, in and outside korea. Best of luck coach Lee ! much love from France <3 (you know, that lil country in Europe ^-^)
On July 24 2011 16:08 Sky0 wrote: lol i think its funny how jealous people are of puma actually getting a contract and getting paid what hes worth. this whole trust and faith with no contract is just some socialist bs that is used cause theres no money to pay there players. gratz to PUMA i hope this changes your the life and the money you make off sc2 can help to provide a better life for you and your family.
I'm just sad that so many SC2 fans are so obsessed with business and money.
This is why I'm certain we'll never have a 10 year old e-sport scene in the west. It all turns into a superficial business scheme (that doesn't even work) so fast for so many people and teams involved, and it ends by them scraping for money to pay their contracted players in a year or two.
All business is basically about abusing competition and screwing them over in any legal way you can, and EG are the experts in that, they've a habit of buying their way to the top (see CS). This is partly why it's so ironic hearing AG and sirscoots regularly giving people lessons about e-sports on djwheat's shows because in their eyes they are the veterans. They've been there and done that. They know how it's done. They've been part of every long-term successful and popular e-sport scene in the west... oh wait, there are none.
Why would you support this attitude? Why would you welcome this to Starcraft? Is the short term money gain really for a few people really worth all the irreversible damage done by teams and their managers who want to play the role of big businessmen and bring the WORST side of professional sports everywhere they go, and now to SC2? Because my answer is no.
I mean look at EG, they don't even have have a team house or a centralized practice location (they sure keep talking about it a lot though), in one whole year since release they weren't capable of setting up the infrastructure a professional team should have and all their current players are only getting worse and falling increasingly behind the top - but one thing they're relentlessly active in is poaching top players (Idra, Demuslim, now Puma). Are they the example of good business in e-sports with a long term perspective? Again, no.
Every time a fan brings up "business" (especially the kind of business that EG runs) as something positive, I get this sick feeling in my stomach as well as the urge to post yet another reply on this even though I don't fucking want to.
Obsessed with business and money? This is their livelihood. They play to eat.
It's ridiculous to think that Puma should say with TSL as a non-contracted player out of good faith when he can be making more money (and thus securing a better future for himself) on EG.
People need to stop acting like TSL is a team run by saints. If he wasn't performing at the level they expected of him then they'd bounce him right out of the house. Korean business isn't any different from American or western business despite whatever picture of honor and respect they try to paint for themselves.
So, many things went wrong with the acquisition of Puma which resulted in all this negative publicity towards EG. All the "hate" EG is receiving isn't fair but a lot of it is justified. There was nothing wrong with EG wanting to acquire Puma since he was under no contract with TSL, but the manner in which EG approached Puma can be seen as shady.
EG approached Puma while at the NASL and by what has been said they clearly mentioned some of the perks in joining EG and what they could offer Puma. This is quite obvious since coach Lee stated that Puma had already made up his mind when they talked. This decision by EG to not contact TSL is what started all this shit storm. It's true that Puma requested that EG not contact TSL about their proposal but, adhering to Puma's request was their second mistake. Sure you want to respect the wishes of the player you want to recruit but EG should have foreseen the reaction of TSL and the community. There's a saying in competitive team sports that goes like "no player is above the team." For a company with so many years in the ESports business, I'm surprised that they didn't contact TSL despite the players request. I would hope with so much experience they would have foreseen the outcome of their actions and did what was best for EG's image (contact TSL first). If Puma didn't like the idea too bad, you put the interest of your business first as Alex stated in WoC. But EG decided to ignore this simple procedure in order to sign Puma without an interference (my own opinion) which resulted in the deal being portrayed as negative.
After coach Lee spoke to Puma about his decision to join EG an article was posted in PlayXp regarding the situation. Milkis translated the article for the TL community on what was going on and EG blamed Milkis for tarnishing EG's image. Later Alex goes on Woc and attacks Milkis implying that it was his fault for the shit storm that followed, questioning him why he didn't get both sides of the story. Sorry Alex but Milkis is not a journalist and goes against what EG said during the EG Masters Cup drama regarding TL (not their business). Oh the sweet irony and hipocracy. Seeing how shady this whole ordeal was, Alex kept attacking Milkis and blaming it on his "journalism." Well guess what Alex, if you would have spoken to TSL in the first place and requested that coach Lee not speak about the possible signing of Puma this fiasco wouldn't have occurred.
After WoC, TLO blogged about the shadyness of the business EG had conducted and called them out. Part of this I'm sure was in part due to the attack on Milkis (this is just me speculating), even though TLO could have worded his blog a little different he was on point of everything he wrote. Many people saw his blog as an attack on EG (due to his wording) but the points he brought up on how EG handled the signing of Puma were all fair.
EG trying to sign Puma was fine. EG not contacting TSL was a naive move by them. It seems like people forget that a lot of the objection concerning Puma's signing originated from EG's approach. To the people saying EG not contacting TSL was fine, well it isn't. Them ignoring TSL started all this drama. The second point people bring up is how Puma wasn't under contract and blamed the coach. Puma being under contract had nothing to do with it, it is apparent that coach Lee was upset because they didn't contact him about the potential signing of Puma and didn't have an opportunity to make a counter offer. I don't care if Alex says that this is how business is done because in reality it isn't. Seeing all these fail sports comparisons just shows how people don't understand the situation and believe the way EG handled the Puma situation was fine.
People comparing the Puma situtation with a free agent in professional sports are clueless on why people objected to the EG approach. Here's the closest one I could think of: soccer youth academies of all the professional soccer clubs. All the youths in soccer academies are registered to a club (much like Puma) and have no contract with the club. At any given time a club could come in a sign a player for free due to his lack of contract. This is all fine, but the potential buyer has to address the club first and then the club talks to the player regarding his future. Once the player and parent club come to an agreement the player leaves and signs for the club that came knocking. If potential buyers don't adhere to this simple procedure there is tension between the parties involved. A simple example was Arsenal's acquisition of Fabregas when he was 16 which resulted in Barca stating that Arsenal stole Fabregas from them (much like coach Lee). Arsenal didn't approach Barca first and resulted in friction between the clubs for years. Fabregas wasn't under contract at the time but was registered with the team and Barca took care of him. To shorten the whole saga in the end Arsenal compensated Barca ( a few millions $) even though Fabregas wasn't under any contract. This exemplifies the importance of simple procedures when signing a player from another team even if not under contract.
In conclusion, there was nothing wrong with EG wanting to sign Puma but the way in which they handled the PR left much to be desired. Since Alex seems to be an expert in business he surely had no idea how to handle this new market called SCII. Sorry Alex but teams can't go around signing players without the teams consent even if they aren't under contract. If starcraft is to grow and be taken seriously teams need to respect each other and conduct business in proper manner so we don't get another situation like this one again. Good luck to all the parties involved, hopefully EG learns from this and move forward. Sorry for the long post, just adding some perspective.
On July 25 2011 05:40 MLQ10 wrote: So, many things went wrong with the acquisition of Puma which resulted in all this negative publicity towards EG. All the "hate" EG is receiving isn't fair but a lot of it is justified. There was nothing wrong with EG wanting to acquire Puma since he was under no contract with TSL, but the manner in which EG approached Puma can be seen as shady.
EG approached Puma while at the NASL and by what has been said they clearly mentioned some of the perks in joining EG and what they could offer Puma. This is quite obvious since coach Lee stated that Puma had already made up his mind when they talked. This decision by EG to not contact TSL is what started all this shit storm. It's true that Puma requested that EG not contact TSL about their proposal but, adhering to Puma's request was their second mistake. Sure you want to respect the wishes of the player you want to recruit but EG should have foreseen the reaction of TSL and the community. There's a saying in competitive team sports that goes like "no player is above the team." For a company with so many years in the ESports business, I'm surprised that they didn't contact TSL despite the players request. I would hope with so much experience they would have foreseen the outcome of their actions and did what was best for EG's image (contact TSL first). If Puma didn't like the idea too bad, you put the interest of your business first as Alex stated in WoC. But EG decided to ignore this simple procedure in order to sign Puma without an interference (my own opinion) which resulted in the deal being portrayed as negative.
After coach Lee spoke to Puma about his decision to join EG an article was posted in PlayXp regarding the situation. Milkis translated the article for the TL community on what was going on and EG blamed Milkis for tarnishing EG's image. Later Alex goes on Woc and attacks Milkis implying that it was his fault for the shit storm that followed, questioning him why he didn't get both sides of the story. Sorry Alex but Milkis is not a journalist and goes against what EG said during the EG Masters Cup drama regarding TL (not their business). Oh the sweet irony and hipocracy. Seeing how shady this whole ordeal was, Alex kept attacking Milkis and blaming it on his "journalism." Well guess what Alex, if you would have spoken to TSL in the first place and requested that coach Lee not speak about the possible signing of Puma this fiasco wouldn't have occurred.
After WoC, TLO blogged about the shadyness of the business EG had conducted and called them out. Part of this I'm sure was in part due to the attack on Milkis (this is just me speculating), even though TLO could have worded his blog a little different he was on point of everything he wrote. Many people saw his blog as an attack on EG (due to his wording) but the points he brought up on how EG handled the signing of Puma were all fair.
EG trying to sign Puma was fine. EG not contacting TSL was a naive move by them. It seems like people forget that a lot of the objection concerning Puma's signing originated from EG's approach. To the people saying EG not contacting TSL was fine, well it isn't. Them ignoring TSL started all this drama. The second point people bring up is how Puma wasn't under contract and blamed the coach. Puma being under contract had nothing to do with it, it is apparent that coach Lee was upset because they didn't contact him about the potential signing of Puma and didn't have an opportunity to make a counter offer. I don't care if Alex says that this is how business is done because in reality it isn't. Seeing all these fail sports comparisons just shows how people don't understand the situation and believe the way EG handled the Puma situation was fine.
People comparing the Puma situtation with a free agent in professional sports are clueless on why people objected to the EG approach. Here's the closest one I could think of: soccer youth academies of all the professional soccer clubs. All the youths in soccer academies are registered to a club (much like Puma) and have no contract with the club. At any given time a club could come in a sign a player for free due to his lack of contract. This is all fine, but the potential buyer has to address the club first and then the club talks to the player regarding his future. Once the player and parent club come to an agreement the player leaves and signs for the club that came knocking. If potential buyers don't adhere to this simple procedure there is tension between the parties involved. A simple example was Arsenal's acquisition of Fabregas when he was 16 which resulted in Barca stating that Arsenal stole Fabregas from them (much like coach Lee). Arsenal didn't approach Barca first and resulted in friction between the clubs for years. Fabregas wasn't under contract at the time but was registered with the team and Barca took care of him. To shorten the whole saga in the end Arsenal compensated Barca ( a few millions $) even though Fabregas wasn't under any contract. This exemplifies the importance of simple procedures when signing a player from another team even if not under contract.
In conclusion, there was nothing wrong with EG wanting to sign Puma but the way in which they handled the PR left much to be desired. Since Alex seems to be an expert in business he surely had no idea how to handle this new market called SCII. Sorry Alex but teams can't go around signing players without the teams consent even if they aren't under contract. If starcraft is to grow and be taken seriously teams need to respect each other and conduct business in proper manner so we don't get another situation like this one again. Good luck to all the parties involved, hopefully EG learns from this and move forward. Sorry for the long post, just adding some perspective.
Yes, you can't freely talk to and sign free agents that have no formal affiliation with a team. That makes sense. The fact people can say that then be upset is just weird.
On July 24 2011 16:08 Sky0 wrote: lol i think its funny how jealous people are of puma actually getting a contract and getting paid what hes worth. this whole trust and faith with no contract is just some socialist bs that is used cause theres no money to pay there players. gratz to PUMA i hope this changes your the life and the money you make off sc2 can help to provide a better life for you and your family.
I'm just sad that so many SC2 fans are so obsessed with business and money.
This is why I'm certain we'll never have a 10 year old e-sport scene in the west. It all turns into a superficial business scheme (that doesn't even work) so fast for so many people and teams involved, and it ends by them scraping for money to pay their contracted players in a year or two.
All business is basically about abusing competition and screwing them over in any legal way you can, and EG are the experts in that, they've a habit of buying their way to the top (see CS). This is partly why it's so ironic hearing AG and sirscoots regularly giving people lessons about e-sports on djwheat's shows because in their eyes they are the veterans. They've been there and done that. They know how it's done. They've been part of every long-term successful and popular e-sport scene in the west... oh wait, there are none.
Why would you support this attitude? Why would you welcome this to Starcraft? Is the short term money gain really for a few people really worth all the irreversible damage done by teams and their managers who want to play the role of big businessmen and bring the WORST side of professional sports everywhere they go, and now to SC2? Because my answer is no.
I mean look at EG, they don't even have have a team house or a centralized practice location (they sure keep talking about it a lot though), in one whole year since release they weren't capable of setting up the infrastructure a professional team should have and all their current players are only getting worse and falling increasingly behind the top - but one thing they're relentlessly active in is poaching top players (Idra, Demuslim, now Puma). Are they the example of good business in e-sports with a long term perspective? Again, no.
Every time a fan brings up "business" (especially the kind of business that EG runs) as something positive, I get this sick feeling in my stomach as well as the urge to post yet another reply on this even though I don't fucking want to.
I like you, you managed to say what I was thinking very well. Agreed. I don't think that dumping tons of money into e-sports is a great idea just as dumping money on anything is bad practice. It's a short term gain sure but I don't like the prospects in the long term.
Also since some people said boycotts or contacting sponsors is silly. I went ahead and contacted Kingston and Intel and received personalized responses from both saying that they have heard about the news and are investigating the matter. This isn't to say that the sponsors will pull from Team EG or even do anything but the fact that the sponsors are at least aware of what their teams are doing and may hold them accountable is refreshing.
On July 24 2011 16:08 Sky0 wrote: lol i think its funny how jealous people are of puma actually getting a contract and getting paid what hes worth. this whole trust and faith with no contract is just some socialist bs that is used cause theres no money to pay there players. gratz to PUMA i hope this changes your the life and the money you make off sc2 can help to provide a better life for you and your family.
I'm just sad that so many SC2 fans are so obsessed with business and money.
This is why I'm certain we'll never have a 10 year old e-sport scene in the west. It all turns into a superficial business scheme (that doesn't even work) so fast for so many people and teams involved, and it ends by them scraping for money to pay their contracted players in a year or two.
All business is basically about abusing competition and screwing them over in any legal way you can, and EG are the experts in that, they've a habit of buying their way to the top (see CS). This is partly why it's so ironic hearing AG and sirscoots regularly giving people lessons about e-sports on djwheat's shows because in their eyes they are the veterans. They've been there and done that. They know how it's done. They've been part of every long-term successful and popular e-sport scene in the west... oh wait, there are none.
Why would you support this attitude? Why would you welcome this to Starcraft? Is the short term money gain really for a few people really worth all the irreversible damage done by teams and their managers who want to play the role of big businessmen and bring the WORST side of professional sports everywhere they go, and now to SC2? Because my answer is no.
I mean look at EG, they don't even have have a team house or a centralized practice location (they sure keep talking about it a lot though), in one whole year since release they weren't capable of setting up the infrastructure a professional team should have and all their current players are only getting worse and falling increasingly behind the top - but one thing they're relentlessly active in is poaching top players (Idra, Demuslim, now Puma). Are they the example of good business in e-sports with a long term perspective? Again, no.
Every time a fan brings up "business" (especially the kind of business that EG runs) as something positive, I get this sick feeling in my stomach as well as the urge to post yet another reply on this even though I don't fucking want to.
I like you, you managed to say what I was thinking very well. Agreed. I don't think that dumping tons of money into e-sports is a great idea just as dumping money on anything is bad practice. It's a short term gain sure but I don't like the prospects in the long term.
Also since some people said boycotts or contacting sponsors is silly. I went ahead and contacted Kingston and Intel and received personalized responses from both saying that they have heard about the news and are investigating the matter. This isn't to say that the sponsors will pull from Team EG or even do anything but the fact that the sponsors are at least aware of what their teams are doing and may hold them accountable is refreshing.
Did you also send emails to any of TSL's sponsors informing them of Coach Lee's misconduct?
most and only important part of the OP is this section
I sense that you are not satisfied with the Korean SC2 pro-gaming scene. If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns. So why didn’t you sign PuMa to a contract beforehand? At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit.
Not sure why its such a hard concept for people to understand. PUMA was free to join any other Korean team without even telling his former team.
On July 25 2011 06:21 purecarnagge wrote: most and only important part of the OP is this section
I sense that you are not satisfied with the Korean SC2 pro-gaming scene. If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns. So why didn’t you sign PuMa to a contract beforehand? At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit.
Not sure why its such a hard concept for people to understand. PUMA was free to join any other Korean team without even telling his former team.
I think people are upset due to a rampant amount of misinformation, and EG making a mistake in letting PuMa talk to Lee instead of EG doing it.
As far as misinformation (AG = Alex Garfield):
1.) PuMa is NOT signed as of yet. AG didn't jump all over PuMa and shove a contract in his face as soon as PuMa won NASL (AG talked to PuMa during the round of 4 anyway, so yeah)
2.) AG did not intentionally refuse to talk to Coach Lee during all of this. AG was handing out cards to a lot of players, basically to open lines of communications in case players were interested in joining EG. PuMa was interested, and PuMa said he wanted to talk to Lee first, before AG. (I believe AG said flat out that if Lee was there at NASL, he would have certainly talked to him first).
3.) In my opinion, this was not a "shady deal" it was just a matter of a team manager approaching a top player, the top player being interested, the player talking to the coach of his team (as a courtesy, really. There's nothing legally binding PuMa to the team) and the coach getting upset and accusing EG of stealing "his" player.
In no way that I can see, did EG "steal" or "poach" a player. Nothing official even happened between EG and PuMa. PuMa hasn't signed anything. EG did fail miserably to provide their side of the argument as a statement after Coach Lee's post, but there was nothing EG could have done to stop Lee from making this statement (besides going against the wishes of PuMa and talking to Coach Lee directly).
Although this all may be false (AG could have lied on WoC) given the evidence this is what I believe to be the actual story, without having the well poisoned by Coach Lee's interview or statement.
On July 25 2011 05:56 Mazeltov wrote: I like you, you managed to say what I was thinking very well. Agreed. I don't think that dumping tons of money into e-sports is a great idea just as dumping money on anything is bad practice. It's a short term gain sure but I don't like the prospects in the long term.
Also since some people said boycotts or contacting sponsors is silly. I went ahead and contacted Kingston and Intel and received personalized responses from both saying that they have heard about the news and are investigating the matter. This isn't to say that the sponsors will pull from Team EG or even do anything but the fact that the sponsors are at least aware of what their teams are doing and may hold them accountable is refreshing.
So what you are saying is that by investing money into esports its going to die, so you went out of your way to try and make sure a team loses its main sponsor?? Man, that is some great logic you have.
On July 25 2011 05:40 MLQ10 wrote: So, many things went wrong with the acquisition of Puma which resulted in all this negative publicity towards EG. All the "hate" EG is receiving isn't fair but a lot of it is justified. There was nothing wrong with EG wanting to acquire Puma since he was under no contract with TSL, but the manner in which EG approached Puma can be seen as shady.
EG approached Puma while at the NASL and by what has been said they clearly mentioned some of the perks in joining EG and what they could offer Puma. This is quite obvious since coach Lee stated that Puma had already made up his mind when they talked. This decision by EG to not contact TSL is what started all this shit storm. It's true that Puma requested that EG not contact TSL about their proposal but, adhering to Puma's request was their second mistake. Sure you want to respect the wishes of the player you want to recruit but EG should have foreseen the reaction of TSL and the community. There's a saying in competitive team sports that goes like "no player is above the team." For a company with so many years in the ESports business, I'm surprised that they didn't contact TSL despite the players request. I would hope with so much experience they would have foreseen the outcome of their actions and did what was best for EG's image (contact TSL first). If Puma didn't like the idea too bad, you put the interest of your business first as Alex stated in WoC. But EG decided to ignore this simple procedure in order to sign Puma without an interference (my own opinion) which resulted in the deal being portrayed as negative.
After coach Lee spoke to Puma about his decision to join EG an article was posted in PlayXp regarding the situation. Milkis translated the article for the TL community on what was going on and EG blamed Milkis for tarnishing EG's image. Later Alex goes on Woc and attacks Milkis implying that it was his fault for the shit storm that followed, questioning him why he didn't get both sides of the story. Sorry Alex but Milkis is not a journalist and goes against what EG said during the EG Masters Cup drama regarding TL (not their business). Oh the sweet irony and hipocracy. Seeing how shady this whole ordeal was, Alex kept attacking Milkis and blaming it on his "journalism." Well guess what Alex, if you would have spoken to TSL in the first place and requested that coach Lee not speak about the possible signing of Puma this fiasco wouldn't have occurred.
After WoC, TLO blogged about the shadyness of the business EG had conducted and called them out. Part of this I'm sure was in part due to the attack on Milkis (this is just me speculating), even though TLO could have worded his blog a little different he was on point of everything he wrote. Many people saw his blog as an attack on EG (due to his wording) but the points he brought up on how EG handled the signing of Puma were all fair.
EG trying to sign Puma was fine. EG not contacting TSL was a naive move by them. It seems like people forget that a lot of the objection concerning Puma's signing originated from EG's approach. To the people saying EG not contacting TSL was fine, well it isn't. Them ignoring TSL started all this drama. The second point people bring up is how Puma wasn't under contract and blamed the coach. Puma being under contract had nothing to do with it, it is apparent that coach Lee was upset because they didn't contact him about the potential signing of Puma and didn't have an opportunity to make a counter offer. I don't care if Alex says that this is how business is done because in reality it isn't. Seeing all these fail sports comparisons just shows how people don't understand the situation and believe the way EG handled the Puma situation was fine.
People comparing the Puma situtation with a free agent in professional sports are clueless on why people objected to the EG approach. Here's the closest one I could think of: soccer youth academies of all the professional soccer clubs. All the youths in soccer academies are registered to a club (much like Puma) and have no contract with the club. At any given time a club could come in a sign a player for free due to his lack of contract. This is all fine, but the potential buyer has to address the club first and then the club talks to the player regarding his future. Once the player and parent club come to an agreement the player leaves and signs for the club that came knocking. If potential buyers don't adhere to this simple procedure there is tension between the parties involved. A simple example was Arsenal's acquisition of Fabregas when he was 16 which resulted in Barca stating that Arsenal stole Fabregas from them (much like coach Lee). Arsenal didn't approach Barca first and resulted in friction between the clubs for years. Fabregas wasn't under contract at the time but was registered with the team and Barca took care of him. To shorten the whole saga in the end Arsenal compensated Barca ( a few millions $) even though Fabregas wasn't under any contract. This exemplifies the importance of simple procedures when signing a player from another team even if not under contract.
In conclusion, there was nothing wrong with EG wanting to sign Puma but the way in which they handled the PR left much to be desired. Since Alex seems to be an expert in business he surely had no idea how to handle this new market called SCII. Sorry Alex but teams can't go around signing players without the teams consent even if they aren't under contract. If starcraft is to grow and be taken seriously teams need to respect each other and conduct business in proper manner so we don't get another situation like this one again. Good luck to all the parties involved, hopefully EG learns from this and move forward. Sorry for the long post, just adding some perspective.
Yes, you can't freely talk to and sign free agents that have no formal affiliation with a team. That makes sense. The fact people can say that then be upset is just weird.
Yeah, it's not like he makes an elaborate comparison to a similar situation in professional football in the preceding paragraph. Did you just skip to the last paragraph without reading anything else or what?
Sorry Alex but teams can't go around signing players without the teams consent even if they aren't under contract. If starcraft is to grow and be taken seriously teams need to respect each other and conduct business in proper manner so we don't get another situation like this one again.
Uh... yeah they certainly can, that's the main purpose of signing players to contracts in any sport in the first place, to make them part of your team.
The only person i see in this deal conducting business improperly is the coach of TSL, by not contracting his players then starting massive drama when his mistake causes him to lose a player.
On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote: I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality.
I can't agree with you. Being part of a team is not just getting paid, it's wearing a name with pride and dedication along with your partners, and I doubt I'm just too naive to still think that in 2011. Unfortunately, I'll have to admit I think PuMa sold-out. He just won what, 10,000$USD? That's a lot of money, right? He could've brought that money back to his team, who obviously played a big part in him getting that opportunity in the first place, invest <somewhat> in the devellopment (whether by providing practice/mentoring to the team or straight up monetarily, like I believe many well-mannered players would do). With his big title win, TSL could've been the next big thing. We know how good Clide and SangHo are. This is just sad.
EG has sunk so low, I can barely see em.. I don't even feel like talking down on their player because most of them are of an above caliber. It just seems to me the mentality that comes with joining a team like EG is 'like wtv, this paycheck says I've got it made!'. Meanwhile, they are all M.I.A. in final brackets and such, even being almost swept out of their own 'EG Master's Cup'. I don't think Scoots has much of a vision for E-Sports growth anymore (can't deny he had it at some point because that's the main intention of 'starting' a team). He seems to ride the tempo where he believes his team dictates the direction E-sports are going and snatching other teams' top players means nothing else to me.
I will now bow out of my argument, understanding that money is the motive.
PuMa doesn't have a contract. (personally I don't know how much he gets payed but its probably not much). I'm not sure why the team is surprised. Players are leaving TSL left and right and coaches and managers still trust them? LMAOOOOOOO
Every time a fan brings up "business" (especially the kind of business that EG runs) as something positive, I get this sick feeling in my stomach as well as the urge to post yet another reply on this even though I don't fucking want to.
You'd probably rather go back to the days when a "big" tournament has a $200 prize fund.
On July 24 2011 16:08 Sky0 wrote: lol i think its funny how jealous people are of puma actually getting a contract and getting paid what hes worth. this whole trust and faith with no contract is just some socialist bs that is used cause theres no money to pay there players. gratz to PUMA i hope this changes your the life and the money you make off sc2 can help to provide a better life for you and your family.
I'm just sad that so many SC2 fans are so obsessed with business and money.
This is why I'm certain we'll never have a 10 year old e-sport scene in the west. It all turns into a superficial business scheme (that doesn't even work) so fast for so many people and teams involved, and it ends by them scraping for money to pay their contracted players in a year or two.
All business is basically about abusing competition and screwing them over in any legal way you can, and EG are the experts in that, they've a habit of buying their way to the top (see CS). This is partly why it's so ironic hearing AG and sirscoots regularly giving people lessons about e-sports on djwheat's shows because in their eyes they are the veterans. They've been there and done that. They know how it's done. They've been part of every long-term successful and popular e-sport scene in the west... oh wait, there are none.
Why would you support this attitude? Why would you welcome this to Starcraft? Is the short term money gain really for a few people really worth all the irreversible damage done by teams and their managers who want to play the role of big businessmen and bring the WORST side of professional sports everywhere they go, and now to SC2? Because my answer is no.
I mean look at EG, they don't even have have a team house or a centralized practice location (they sure keep talking about it a lot though), in one whole year since release they weren't capable of setting up the infrastructure a professional team should have and all their current players are only getting worse and falling increasingly behind the top - but one thing they're relentlessly active in is poaching top players (Idra, Demuslim, now Puma). Are they the example of good business in e-sports with a long term perspective? Again, no.
Every time a fan brings up "business" (especially the kind of business that EG runs) as something positive, I get this sick feeling in my stomach as well as the urge to post yet another reply on this even though I don't fucking want to.
I like you, you managed to say what I was thinking very well. Agreed. I don't think that dumping tons of money into e-sports is a great idea just as dumping money on anything is bad practice. It's a short term gain sure but I don't like the prospects in the long term.
Also since some people said boycotts or contacting sponsors is silly. I went ahead and contacted Kingston and Intel and received personalized responses from both saying that they have heard about the news and are investigating the matter. This isn't to say that the sponsors will pull from Team EG or even do anything but the fact that the sponsors are at least aware of what their teams are doing and may hold them accountable is refreshing.
I can only imagine how Intel dealt with this schmucks email.
"Some guy says a professional gaming team we sponsor stole a Korean player from his respective team." "lolwut?" "yeah he says we should pull our sponsorship" "trollface.jpg"
GTFO with your self-righteous bullshit, I guarantee people laugh at you behind your back while you yell at waitresses for messing up your order.
This interview was quite enlightening into Lee's and TSL's view of how things went down. I think Mr. Lee will have been hurt by this lesson, but he will gain in the end because it will make him aware of two important things: a) finding a way to reach Western sponsors and events is going to be the only way to grow a team in the near future because of the difficulty of getting code S status. b) taking more serious the business side of the team, rather than just creating a good playing environment and finding good players.
Sorry Alex but teams can't go around signing players without the teams consent even if they aren't under contract. If starcraft is to grow and be taken seriously teams need to respect each other and conduct business in proper manner so we don't get another situation like this one again.
Uh... yeah they certainly can, that's the main purpose of signing players to contracts in any sport in the first place, to make them part of your team.
The only person i see in this deal conducting business improperly is the coach of TSL, by not contracting his players then starting massive drama when his mistake causes him to lose a player.
I agree with this.
It's unfortunate to have a player "stolen" from underneath you, but that's the exact reason you get players locked down in contracts.
It's also to keep the teams honest. I mean, sure, EG could (should) have contacted coach Lee, but without a contract, i feel like they weren't required to. I feel like part of it's poor planning on Coach Lee's part. I understand, money is tight. you might not be able to pay out a guaranteed amount of money every month, especially with slipping success, and sponsors pulling funding.
But that's exactly the time you need to implement stricter regiments of training etc, to get those tourney results and get that sponsorship money. Sure, nobody likes to buckle down and be forced to work harder, but sometimes it's required.
TSL can't stay running as the "lax team in Korea." Without results, you just can't stay alive.
Edit:
On July 25 2011 11:42 Remaker12 wrote: There needs to be a official Global Starcraft League that keeps players and team in check if E-Sports is ever going to truly make a profit.
Proper regulation leads to exponential growth.
Unfortunately the SC2 scene doesn't have enough money to create such a thing. We don't need sponsors. We need investors.
I'll agree to this. We need to infuse some kind of money in a circular fashion. We can't keep having sponsors and just giving away all their money in the tournaments. We've got to keep a little off to the side to continue to reinvest into later tourneys, and get the ball really rolling from there. Yes, sponsorships should help, but we need to figure out how to actually derive money from our audience, through commercials or what have you, in order to keep this a self-perpetuating system
After listening to Alex Garfield talk on weapon of choice i felt like vomiting. I hate it when people use technicalities and "its just business" to torch anything that isnt in line with those rules in mind. We live in a world of both business and friendships. And a team built on friendships and loyalty is just as real as a team built on money.
I dont have the solution for what is right or wrong or who is right or wrong. But i miss the days when the greatest part of Starcraft was the game itself. Not the drama, not the hype, not the male soap opera that this has become. Nobody cares my tiny opinion, im nothing. But i used to come to this site because it gave me a break from nonsense and bullshit and i could come here and watch players play BW amazingly and it was worth it even at 5 am with the non english stream lagging like ass and still on the edge of my seat just to see the game itself unfold. Now its just a cesspool of drama and bullshit that doesnt have anything to do with the actual game itself. Maybe people love that. Maybe people think thats "great for esports". But i miss the good old days when the games themselves were all that was important. This whole new nerd soap opera drama garbage is really wrecking it for me.
The "international community" needs to stop patting itself on the back for being loyal to esports for a grand total of 1 year amidst the hype and all the easy money to be made. Ill be interested in seeing how much MLG, IGN, etc care about SC once there isnt any money to be made off of it anymore, be it in a year, 2 years, or 10.
I just came here to see players play well. This soap opera is tiring.
On July 25 2011 12:05 CaptNfantasy wrote: After listening to Alex Garfield talk on weapon of choice i felt like vomiting. I hate it when people use technicalities and "its just business" to torch anything that isnt in line with those rules in mind. We live in a world of both business and friendships. And a team built on friendships and loyalty is just as real as a team built on money.
I dont have the solution for what is right or wrong or who is right or wrong. But i miss the days when the greatest part of Starcraft was the game itself. Not the drama, not the hype, not the male soap opera that this has become. Nobody cares my tiny opinion, im nothing. But i used to come to this site because it gave me a break from nonsense and bullshit and i could come here and watch players play BW amazingly and it was worth it even at 5 am with the non english stream lagging like ass and still on the edge of my seat just to see the game itself unfold. Now its just a cesspool of drama and bullshit that doesnt have anything to do with the actual game itself. Maybe people love that. Maybe people think thats "great for esports". But i miss the good old days when the games themselves were all that was important. This whole new nerd soap opera drama garbage is really wrecking it for me.
The "international community" needs to stop patting itself on the back for being loyal to esports for a grand total of 1 year amidst the hype and all the easy money to be made. Ill be interested in seeing how much MLG, IGN, etc care about SC once there isnt any money to be made off of it anymore, be it in a year, 2 years, or 10.
I just came here to see players play well. This soap opera is tiring.
Not tiring enough to stop you from writing a soap opera contribution of your own. I guess if big words made me vomit I'd be tired too :D
Coach Lee has commented on PlayXP's thread that talked about the EG's point of view with Milkis. This is what he said:
지인에게 연락이 왔는데, 호준이가 먼저 접근했다고 했습니다. 그걸 저에게 전해달라고 했고. 전 호준이가 먼저 그럴 일은 없다고 생각했습니다. 그래서 트위터에 그것은 거짓말이라고 한 것 입니다. 확실히 알았으면 좋겠네요 EG가요. 호준이는 EG에 가게 될 것이며, TSL 선수단은 호준이를 모두 응원합니다. 물론 저도 포함이고요. 호준이도 잘 알고 있습니다. 이제 EG에는 신경안쓰고 6명+ 신입생 선수들과 잘 이끌어 나갈 것 입니다. 오늘 TSL은 가평으로 새로게 시작하고자 워크숍을 갑니다. 잘 다녀 오겠습니다.
Someone that was related to the issue called me and told me that Puma contacted EG first. I thought that was false. That's why I posted on Twitter that it was a lie. I hope EG knows this well. Puma will go to EG and TSL will cheer for Puma. Of course, me included. Puma knows this as well. I won't care about EG anymore but the new 6+ recruits. I'll be heading to workshop. I'll be back.
Also.... 그리고 호준이에게 들은 바, EG에서 시일안에 연락을 저에게 전화를 해도 되겠냐고 물었는데 왜 이렇게 인터뷰를 했는지 이해가 안되네요. And Puma told me that EG wanted to know (or was gonna [sry, not sure what he meant]) call me by Sunday so I do not know why the interview went like this.
아울러 연습실, 한국팀, 동료들등이 없다면 수준높은 연습과 실전경기가 없다면 그들이 원하고, 환호하는 경기가 나올까요? 그건 방식에 있어서 장단점이 있다고 보입니다. In addition, if there were no practice house, Korean team, peers, etc., there will be no high quality practice and games. Will this provide the fans with exciting games they want? I think there are pros and cons to the method.
On July 25 2011 12:16 ssi.bal-listic wrote: Coach Lee has commented on PlayXP's thread that talked about the EG's point of view with Milkis. This is what he said:
지인에게 연락이 왔는데, 호준이가 먼저 접근했다고 했습니다. 그걸 저에게 전해달라고 했고. 전 호준이가 먼저 그럴 일은 없다고 생각했습니다. 그래서 트위터에 그것은 거짓말이라고 한 것 입니다. 확실히 알았으면 좋겠네요 EG가요. 호준이는 EG에 가게 될 것이며, TSL 선수단은 호준이를 모두 응원합니다. 물론 저도 포함이고요. 호준이도 잘 알고 있습니다. 이제 EG에는 신경안쓰고 6명+ 신입생 선수들과 잘 이끌어 나갈 것 입니다. 오늘 TSL은 가평으로 새로게 시작하고자 워크숍을 갑니다. 잘 다녀 오겠습니다.
Someone that was related to the issue called me and told me that Puma contacted EG first. I thought that was false. That's why I posted on Twitter that it was a lie. I hope EG knows this well. Puma will go to EG and TSL will cheer for Puma. Of course, me included. Puma knows this as well. I won't care about EG anymore but the new 6+ recruits. I'll be heading to workshop. I'll be back.
Also.... 그리고 호준이에게 들은 바, EG에서 시일안에 연락을 저에게 전화를 해도 되겠냐고 물었는데 왜 이렇게 인터뷰를 했는지 이해가 안되네요. And Puma told me that EG wanted to know (or was gonna [sry, not sure what he meant]) call me by Sunday so I do not know why the interview went like this.
아울러 연습실, 한국팀, 동료들등이 없다면 수준높은 연습과 실전경기가 없다면 그들이 원하고, 환호하는 경기가 나올까요? 그건 방식에 있어서 장단점이 있다고 보입니다. In addition, if there were no practice house, Korean team, peers, etc., there will be no high quality practice and games. Will this provide the fans with exciting games they want? I think there are pros and cons to the method.
Wow, this shits on so many drama queens' arguments, hilarious. Glad to see that Coach Lee is doing his part to defuse the situation.
그리고 호준이에게 들은 바, EG에서 시일안에 연락을 저에게 전화를 해도 되겠냐고 물었는데 왜 이렇게 인터뷰를 했는지 이해가 안되네요. And Puma told me that EG wanted to know (or was gonna [sry, not sure what he meant]) call me by Sunday so I do not know why the interview went like this.
If you dislike how EG has handled this then A) contact their management, B) Vote with your feet (Don't watch events they run, don't watch their streams) and C) support the sponsors of the team(s) you do like rather then EG's when making purchases.
Visited myeg.net for the perhaps third - but definitely last - time in my life. Gathered a list of the sponsors that I can avoid. Its basically the only easy way to even remotely try to keep and stick to your personal principles.
So:
Intel -> Always gone with AMD anyways, no problem Steelseries -> I looove my 5HV2USB headset, but it actually recently broke (no sound in the right ear sometimes, have to smack it around a bit for it to start working) and its only ~1 year old. Guess I will go with a Razer headset next! Monster Energy -> Who the fuck drinks Monster Energy anyway, it taste like shit. Redbull all the way! Kingston HyperX -> Fine, I'll buy Corsair or Crucial then. Bigfoot Networks -> You know what they say: "Big feet = Big dick (aka EG) Ventrilo -> Teamspeak ftw
Dont support companies that support 'esport', awesome idea -_- This kind of posts should be bannable.
I personally found the "Always gone with AMD anyways," part hilarious...
그리고 호준이에게 들은 바, EG에서 시일안에 연락을 저에게 전화를 해도 되겠냐고 물었는데 왜 이렇게 인터뷰를 했는지 이해가 안되네요. And Puma told me that EG wanted to know (or was gonna [sry, not sure what he meant]) call me by Sunday so I do not know why the interview went like this.
player wasn't under contract. Passionate fans are pissed off... w/e.
I had to sign a contract for my sponsorship in paintball...I wasn't even paid.
Bottom line here is Lee is a bad manager, he's a bad business man. Half of the primary team has defected. He sent a kid who see's an easier way out out of the country on his teams dime without any contract. Many teams have tried to sign koreans or work out arrangements with korean teams before. Also, 2 of his other players had already been approached but never told the manager. Yet, this is the kids fault? Why wouldn't his team tell him if they got other offers while under contract??? Suddenly this is a surprise? In a book its called foreshadowing.
For being a team which has been around for a long time and has been very successful, they sure are n00bs. It couldn't be more obvious how much respect they would lose because of this. EG gets a good korean player, cool, now we want to watch them and support them. Oh wait, they are assholes, let's ignore them.
A team aquiring a non-contracted player should be all in a days work... but somehow they mess it up and now the majority of the community looks down on them.
On July 25 2011 17:18 Tobberoth wrote: For being a team which has been around for a long time and has been very successful, they sure are n00bs. It couldn't be more obvious how much respect they would lose because of this. EG gets a good korean player, cool, now we want to watch them and support them. Oh wait, they are assholes, let's ignore them.
A team aquiring a non-contracted player should be all in a days work... but somehow they mess it up and now the majority of the community looks down on them.
Aaaaannddd there we have it. From: -EG sniped puma right out from under TSL, what assholes! to -EG may not have directly sniped puma yet, but that's obviously what they're planning, what assholes! to -So maybe puma was the one who screwed up, it was EG that put him in that position, what assholes! to -Ok so puma directly told lee that EG wanted to contact him but lee jumped the gun anyways for some reason or another...lol EG sucks.
With most people naturally sticking with the first theory and not bothering to read further. It's a wonder people like garfield manage to not explode whenever things like this happen. Doubly so when it seems like an official teamliquid policy to shit on EG whenever possible.
On July 25 2011 17:18 Tobberoth wrote: For being a team which has been around for a long time and has been very successful, they sure are n00bs. It couldn't be more obvious how much respect they would lose because of this. EG gets a good korean player, cool, now we want to watch them and support them. Oh wait, they are assholes, let's ignore them.
A team aquiring a non-contracted player should be all in a days work... but somehow they mess it up and now the majority of the community looks down on them.
Aaaaannddd there we have it. From: -EG sniped puma right out from under TSL, what assholes! to -EG may not have directly sniped puma yet, but that's obviously what they're planning, what assholes! to -So maybe puma was the one who screwed up, it was EG that put him in that position, what assholes! to -Ok so puma directly told lee that EG wanted to contact him but lee jumped the gun anyways for some reason or another...lol EG sucks.
With most people naturally sticking with the first theory and not bothering to read further. It's a wonder people like garfield manage to not explode whenever things like this happen. Doubly so when it seems like an official teamliquid policy to shit on EG whenever possible.
If EG never approached Puma then they would have said this the first chance they got, why would they agree to the currently believed story if it paints the situation worse than it was. Alex Garfield already gave EG's side of the story and there was no mention of Puma approaching EG first.
Either way they went about it, they still took advantage of the lack of contracts where there should have been contracts to take the star player from a korean team, by offering him piles of money.
EG explained their position in detail on Weapon of Choice. It's worth a listen to if you have the time.
Personally, I feel that there is so much money and so many tournaments outside of Korea, that I like seeing top Korean players take this opportunity to make a better living for themselves. I think that the idea that Korean players should only play on Korean teams is more based on national pride than practicality. There are a lot of Korean players who would like to play in more foreign tournaments but are not able to. The GSL is structured to make players commit fully to it. Puma won $50k at NASL and he will certainly see more winnings like that outside of Korea.
EG has sponsorship dollars that want to be put behind good players...
Korean teams have a ton of players that play for pittances struggling to get results in a single tournament and can't afford to send them to any foreign tourneys.
Don't know where all this approaching business came from, it doesn't really matter IMO who approached who if TSL can't compete with the offer.
Honor systems are cool, but the world isn't full of Don Drapers. If his players weren't signed, a lot of it has to do with not having fix terms to offer.
On July 26 2011 00:50 TerranMeApart wrote: EG explained their position in detail on Weapon of Choice. It's worth a listen to if you have the time.
Personally, I feel that there is so much money and so many tournaments outside of Korea, that I like seeing top Korean players take this opportunity to make a better living for themselves. I think that the idea that Korean players should only play on Korean teams is more based on national pride than practicality. There are a lot of Korean players who would like to play in more foreign tournaments but are not able to. The GSL is structured to make players commit fully to it. Puma won $50k at NASL and he will certainly see more winnings like that outside of Korea.
It's not what they did that is contentious but how they did it, after Puma's big NASL win and without the other team's consent. It might have been a good business decision but from a relations point of view it was very disrespectful to TSL and a step backward for unifying esports. I bet koreans will be more cautious and less trusting of westerners in the future as a result of this.
Whether koreans are paid/treated properly or not is a whole other kettle of fish and doesn't justify EG's actions, whatever their intentions were the way they went about it was wrong (and frankly I highly doubt they had such noble intentions of supporting the player, else they would simply sponsor him like other teams have done).
On July 26 2011 00:48 XenoX101 wrote: If EG never approached Puma then they would have said this the first chance they got, why would they agree to the currently believed story if it paints the situation worse than it was. Alex Garfield already gave EG's side of the story and there was no mention of Puma approaching EG first.
Either way they went about it, they still took advantage of the lack of contracts where there should have been contracts to take the star player from a korean team, by offering him piles of money.
Piles of money? Enlighten us since you seem to know, what exactly did they offer Puma. Do you have contract details? Is it 50k, maybe 100k salary, more?
EG did exactly what any self respecting team should have done. They were looking to recruit, they went to an event and handed out business cards to players. One of the players was interested and came back to EG to see what they might offer him. It's up the players to respect their contracts or as a free agent (such as Puma) look after his interests. Nothing shady about this practice at all. If tl, dignitas, fxo, fnatic, etcetera are looking to bolster their teams and not doing the same I'd question their management. You acquire players by actively going out and scouting them, letting them know you're interested and then you wait for them to come to you.
If Puma (or any player) showed interest in EG's offer that was under contract, this obviously goes a very different direction. Either it's dropped at that moment, or EG goes to TSL and inquires to what the cost of his rights might be.
eSports isn't some world of rainbow pooping unicorns fairytale honour. It's a business, it will be run like a business. With contracts to protect your assets, buyouts to acquire another teams players and free agents going to the highest bidder. Welcome to the real world.
On July 25 2011 17:18 Tobberoth wrote: For being a team which has been around for a long time and has been very successful, they sure are n00bs. It couldn't be more obvious how much respect they would lose because of this. EG gets a good korean player, cool, now we want to watch them and support them. Oh wait, they are assholes, let's ignore them.
A team aquiring a non-contracted player should be all in a days work... but somehow they mess it up and now the majority of the community looks down on them.
Aaaaannddd there we have it. From: -EG sniped puma right out from under TSL, what assholes! to -EG may not have directly sniped puma yet, but that's obviously what they're planning, what assholes! to -So maybe puma was the one who screwed up, it was EG that put him in that position, what assholes! to -Ok so puma directly told lee that EG wanted to contact him but lee jumped the gun anyways for some reason or another...lol EG sucks.
With most people naturally sticking with the first theory and not bothering to read further. It's a wonder people like garfield manage to not explode whenever things like this happen. Doubly so when it seems like an official teamliquid policy to shit on EG whenever possible.
If EG never approached Puma then they would have said this the first chance they got, why would they agree to the currently believed story if it paints the situation worse than it was. Alex Garfield already gave EG's side of the story and there was no mention of Puma approaching EG first.
Either way they went about it, they still took advantage of the lack of contracts where there should have been contracts to take the star player from a korean team, by offering him piles of money.
It sounds like you didn't listen to weapon of choice, or you would have gone with the argument that he explicitly states that he approached puma first. By handing him a card. Listen from about 22 to 35 and that's the entire summary of events from his perspective. He also mentions something about eg looking to develop more than just puma in korea, but I guess that was drowned in the bigger news.
As to the lack of a statement it was stupid of garfield not to immediately post something here along the lines of a simple "puma is not signed to eg" and direct the talk into questions here that he can answer in plaintext; spoken statements just aren't as effective as people generally either don't listen or misunderstand. But while his approach amounted to a simple hello, this forum loves dissecting semantics and saying puma was the one to initiate the conversation would end up sounding like a direct lie in the largely hating atmosphere that tl was already in.
He also disagreed with lee's story, but it took longer for him to talk about how he respects lee and is sure lee is a great guy etc than he took to say lee was wrong. Again the issue with spoken word statements.
Lastly yes, there should have been contracts. Lee's bad for not having any. Eg has sponsors and through them the money to support players that otherwise wouldn't be making anything and just might want to. This makes eg in the wrong how.
There's a couple sayings I think apply after reading this, "Knowledge is Power" and "Look out for number one". Whether it be Starcraft player, Accountant, Hockey Player, Cabinet Maker, whatever-if you excel at something you need to be paid for your skill. Puma felt he would be paid better with EG, there is nothing wrong with that and I applaud his courage for making a change. He wasn't bound by a contract.....
Kind of funny how many people have sympathy for lee when he has basically done and admitted to a terrible job coaching and managing the team. He completely catered to the lazy stars and wasn't sure how to handle new talent, lost most of his sponsors and top players. It is no surprise players would want to jump ship their, and personally it isn't some big character thing to stay around their it is more just hurting your own career.
Also puma wins major tournament and still no contract talks for the team. Eg may not have handled it the best way but for anyone to hold this against puma is foolish.
It's a bit absurd to laud Clide and co. for "not bothering" their coach with the news that they had been approached by foreign teams. That seems like the most important thing you should bring up when you see him next. And honestly, it shows a disgusting lack of transparency from those two bordering on cowardice. This nebulous concept of "loyalty" becomes selfish and domineering when you're insisting your star player go down with the sinking ship.
People overreact and chastise because of their idea of what it is to be loyal. From every single piece of information I've read, it seems that TSL dropped the ball hard here, and the blame rests at the feet of their coach.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PiBVR.jpg)
I hope his new team gets more success in the future.
sign MY contract xD
