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On July 24 2011 00:03 CanucksJC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 23:59 CreamCorn wrote:
I agree. I attribute this whole drama to the coach Lee. Puma could have declined. But ultimately Puma wasn't contracted and he isn't receiving a salary from the TSL. EG wants to pay Puma. This is great for Puma, EG and the SC2 as esport. Well no, now that teams are thinking twice about sending their players internationally. Clide and Killer admitted they have been approached too. Don't you think it's more professional for teams to go after the management instead of the players themselves?
Why should they be afraid to send players overseas?
If Puma was a paid player by TSL and had a contract this wouldn't have happened. You can't really expect to have a top player without having a contract.
Clide and Killer were approached and they didn't even leave Korea? NaDa, MC.. travel a lot and I am sure they have been approached by foreign teams but oGs is probably much better about actually signing and paying their players.
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On July 24 2011 00:03 CanucksJC wrote:
Uhh..... Even though PuMa wasn't contracted, he was still under TSL. Since he wasn't on a contract, no one was wronged technically, but it was still a dick move by EG. I actually find it very hard to see this from the other side of the argument...
Even though I disagree, I at least get why you disprove of their actions. I think this incident highlights the flaws present in the informal manner in which some teams conduct business and their reliance on unwritten rules, especially given the global nature of the current SC2 scene.
Well no, now that teams are thinking twice about sending their players internationally. Clide and Killer admitted they have been approached too. Don't you think it's more professional for teams to go after the management instead of the players themselves?
I would argue that if a player is good enough for you to send them to an international tournament, it would be foolish to expect them not to be approached by another team if they aren't under contract. The solution is to sign them before sending them, problem avoided.
For the record, I'm not arguing that it couldn't have been handled more cleanly.
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more respect for SangHo and Clide for sticking to their team.
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Remember the post when Huk joined TL?
What was the first pic we saw? Him signing a contract.
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On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote:
Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously.
Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
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I'm surprised Team EG, or Puma could of put more thought into this situation.
It could of been easily a joint venture. Puma representing EG/ in foreigners tournaments, and representing TSL in GSL tournaments. Team OGS, and Team liquid work together, why not other teams?
All I know for a foreigner team to acquire a Korean player like this will have a negative backlash on how Korean SC views the foreigner scene in general. Even if it was Pumas decision, and his choice, both sides will have to face negative feedback from the Korean culture.
Like it or not the Koreans made this game what it is. We have to have some type of respect for their efforts for e~sports, as well as common respect for the teams & coaches.
I hope before another situation like this happens, Teams looking for new prospects, players , and coaches can communicate openly, and honestly about where they stand, and what their present and future intentions are.
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On July 22 2011 13:02 LanTAs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 12:50 oxxo wrote:On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote:
I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality. Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this. Yeah, definitely, its not just about contracts or anything in Asian cultures, its much more about respect in general. AlexG is quite shady despite playing within the rules, i mean i hate to say it, but IMO this hurts the western organization's reputation, sure you can say that they are all not that shady, but korean organizations are going to label and generalize the western community, and with SangHo and Clide coming out with how they were approached by western organizations, korean teams and organizations are much more likely going to be more tough with their team reguations, force contracts, and most likely more of the Koreans to Western teams will happen much less (or untill contracts expire). Also, the KoT debate with Milkis and AlexG.... come on Alex. Its almost the same thing as me asking him "hey dude, you like strawberry ice crream?" and him just saying "well i like fruit flavored ice cream".
So why should western organizations bend to the asian?
I still dont get it why you all think of korea in such a highly honored way. Sure it's the "mecca" of SC1 but seriously, the western organizations have way more to offer than korean orgas ... get over it.
USA/EU companies have more business budgets than koreans.
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On July 24 2011 00:25 Dranak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote:
Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously. Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting.
Unless you want something back from that community at 1 point or another, which they do.
So in conclusion, EG is just not very bright thinking they can snatch like that without it being a ''big deal''.
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Very interesting read. Thank you for translating.
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Thanks for the interview, EG definitely won't like this.
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On July 24 2011 00:31 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:25 Dranak wrote:On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote:
Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously. Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Aisan cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting. Unless you want something back from that community at 1 point or another, which they do. So in conclusion, EG is just not very bright thinking they can snatch like that without it being a ''big deal''.
And Korea is not very bright thinking they can keep players with "loyalty and honor".
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Not enough players
Not enough money
Some great talent
No strong practice regiment
The team had/has some great talents, but really needs to utilize them more efficiently. Unfortunately they didn't do that sooner. Clide Rain Puma Sangho all would make great mentors to 10-15 younger players. It is unfortunate that they lost the players, but also very weird to me that EG picked up Puma perhaps though for the foreign tournaments though.
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I really feel like while Korean gamers will most likely continue to dominate for a long time yet the center for sc2 esports will be in NA and EU not in Korea.
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On July 24 2011 00:31 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:25 Dranak wrote:On July 23 2011 23:59 Shiori wrote:
Yes, courtesy. No one is saying EG did anything illegal. We're saying they acted unprofessionally and discourteously. Since PuMa wasn't under contract, they had no professional obligation to TSL. I certainly see why it could be considered rude (and that rudeness is considered a much larger issue in most Asian cultures than most Western ones), but politeness is rarely a virtue in a business setting. Unless you want something back from that community at 1 point or another, which they do. So in conclusion, EG is just not very bright thinking they can snatch like that without it being a ''big deal''.
So are you seriously suggesting that EG will be barred from the Korean SC2 scene over this? Because I rather doubt that. I also doubt such a move would seriously hurt EG.
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On July 24 2011 00:29 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:02 LanTAs wrote:On July 22 2011 12:50 oxxo wrote:On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote:
I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality. Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this. Yeah, definitely, its not just about contracts or anything in Asian cultures, its much more about respect in general. AlexG is quite shady despite playing within the rules, i mean i hate to say it, but IMO this hurts the western organization's reputation, sure you can say that they are all not that shady, but korean organizations are going to label and generalize the western community, and with SangHo and Clide coming out with how they were approached by western organizations, korean teams and organizations are much more likely going to be more tough with their team reguations, force contracts, and most likely more of the Koreans to Western teams will happen much less (or untill contracts expire). Also, the KoT debate with Milkis and AlexG.... come on Alex. Its almost the same thing as me asking him "hey dude, you like strawberry ice crream?" and him just saying "well i like fruit flavored ice cream". So why should western organizations bend to the asian? I still dont get it why you all think of korea in such a highly honored way. Sure it's the "mecca" of SC1 but seriously, the western organizations have way more to offer than korean orgas ... get over it. USA/EU companies have more business budgets than koreans.
Yet Korea got the players and the infrastructure to make these players to what they are.
If you want the players you should at least respect the ways they do stuff there.
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I don't see why you should have to go to a manager first.
EG: Would we like to sign Puma
Coach Lee: I wouldn't like that
...
I think you should always ask the player first whether he is even remotely interested in joining first so you don't go around asking every single korean manager if you can do business.
Edit: @ above poster. If you want their players obviously you don't have to "respect" their culture. Puma could have told EG, please contact my manager first but he didn't!
All these big teams that actually pay their players money and let them travel to various tournaments will be able to sign these koreans(or some sort of col/mvp ogs/sk deal).
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On July 24 2011 01:20 YoYoBallz wrote:
Any Korean team>EG
BUT!!!
Puma > Any Korean Team
Mindfucked.... 
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To be honest, Coach Lee deserves a lot more respect due to his trust in the players. You don't really see that kind of trust anymore since nearly every player is contracted the moment they joined the team. But it's true that TSL hasn't been showing great results in tournaments as of late. I kind of feel sorry for the coach and how much work he has ahead of him...
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Puma didn't have a contract, EG offered him one. He was free to accept it. I really don't see the drama in this.
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EPT
