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My Interpretation,
What I get from this interview with Coach Lee: it seems like Coach Lee knew about the Puma's deal with EG after he came back to Korea and felt that Puma already made up his mind so he decided to release him. Puma had already signed with EG since he had no contract with TSL. (Puma = stressed out, not being himself)
What I heard in WoC from the EG manager: it seems like EG contacted Puma personally, Puma is interested in the deal and tells EG that he will talk to Coach Lee himself about the issue. Talks between Coach Lee and Puma accorded before he come back to Korea, EG receive words from Puma that his talk with the coach went very well. Puma is not officially signed with EG yet. (Puma = happy)
Coach Lee stance: EG should have contact him directly, although Puma wasn't officially contracted with TSL, he was still morally contracted with the team (team providing him food, shelter, travel expense, practice partner, etc.), he viewed EG's action as kind of disrespectful. He was disappointed that Puma made such a big decision in a short amount of time [without talking to him first] but respects Puma's decision anyways and releases him. He feels that there need to be a system or organization that protects "foreign teams from stealing players in Korea." (possibly has some power over the players)
EG stance: EG feels that there's no need to contact Coach Lee since Puma wasn't contracted with TSL, if a team wasn't contract with their players and decides to rely on the trust and honor of their players its too bad for them (the team) if their players gets pickup by other (foreign) team since in the Western esport world, all the players were contracted to their teams. Despite all this, Puma and EG hasn't come to an agreement yet. EG feels Korean teams should be more aware of the foreign scene that they should have had contracts with their players in the first place and believes that a self-contained system or model (that restricts and control players) is not the best model for SC2 to grow as a global esport.
Seems to me like there's a miscommunication on both sides and I felt that they should have talk to each other more (privately) before releasing statements. The actual victim is not EG nor TSL but its actual Puma as he will be the one who is mostly affected by this.
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If TSL has to rely on SangHo and Clides money to stay alive, they won't last much longer, good will and love or not.
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The sort of attitude expressed by the TSL coach in this interview, and by Sang-Ho and Clide, is so admirable. I wish there was some way to preserve it but it will become more and more difficult as Esports grows.
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On July 22 2011 13:59 ragealot wrote:
I feel as though people glossed over the most important part of the interview by praising Clide/Sangho. " If PuMa was placed in Code S, I believe he would not have taken the deal. From the Korean player’s perspective, getting into Code S is hard, and winning the GSL is even harder, thus the door of opportunity is very narrow." Guess what the former two have that Puma doesn't. One worthwhile league is not enough, especially with such a top heavy prize pool.
Especially when you can play in all the foreigner tournaments and crush every single bad player.
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You have announced that the team is currently in “rebuilding” mode. I would presume that this event caused some turmoil internally as well.
Having been blindsided by the news, we did not know how to react. SangHo and Clide were worried and it came to light that they were also approached similarly in the past.
This seems to read that EG has been trying to poach members of TSL that are under contract too. Am I wrong?
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Sangho and Clide man. I've always had mad respect for Sangho in BW, I loved watching his games, he just played very strongly. When the betting scandal hit I was so sad he was implicated (although falsely). It took a real man to give up BW at that time and not just return after being alienated like that. Now with SC2, he's giving up his salary for the benefit of the team. Sangho man, You're a great player and an even better person.
Puma and EG though... Really? Is SC2 really at the point where you will earn enough money from acts like this to compensate for the bad press? I love EG's players, but most certainly dislike the management. (State of the game anyone, like really?). The scene is rapidly growing but its not like progaming suddenly becomes purely about money overnight. Gotta build up the playerbase first imho.
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i also really think its a low move to approach the player first and not the team. there are probably other situations in which this occurred but it just seems bad mannered to me. i also think its a good step in to proffesionalization of sc2 to start working with contracts. it's devestating for a team to have players simply walk out on you whenever they please, and it will prevent a lot of teams for establishing a name for themselves. TSL losing their wonderboy like that just might be a fatal blow for them althought i sincerely hope not...
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On July 22 2011 21:13 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +You have announced that the team is currently in “rebuilding” mode. I would presume that this event caused some turmoil internally as well.
Having been blindsided by the news, we did not know how to react. SangHo and Clide were worried and it came to light that they were also approached similarly in the past. This seems to read that EG has been trying to poach members of TSL that are under contract too. Am I wrong?
EG only talked to Koreans who came to NA tournaments in person.
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On July 22 2011 21:13 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +You have announced that the team is currently in “rebuilding” mode. I would presume that this event caused some turmoil internally as well.
Having been blindsided by the news, we did not know how to react. SangHo and Clide were worried and it came to light that they were also approached similarly in the past. This seems to read that EG has been trying to poach members of TSL that are under contract too. Am I wrong? They weren't under contract at the time. The wording suggests Clide and Sangho were approached even before Puma, and the TSL members just recently drew up contracts after the Puma poaching.
Safe to say EG, or some other team, tried to get Clide and Sangho but they just kept quiet about it.
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The fact that some players even paid back parts of their salaries to support the team shows, that honor is still important, at least in some parts of the world. very nice.
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On July 22 2011 21:13 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +You have announced that the team is currently in “rebuilding” mode. I would presume that this event caused some turmoil internally as well.
Having been blindsided by the news, we did not know how to react. SangHo and Clide were worried and it came to light that they were also approached similarly in the past. This seems to read that EG has been trying to poach members of TSL that are under contract too. Am I wrong?
Yes, you're wrong.
All it reads is that foreign teams (non-specific unnamed foreign teams) have approached Clide and SangHo.
If these teams don't realize they're under contract, what's the big deal? They're trying to be the best team they can be. AGarfield said on WoC today his players get contacted a lot, and they tell their managers when it happens. This is a competition-driven business. Teams will do whatever it takes to win, because that's what brings in the limited sponsorship money. They will do what they have to to succeed, and the sooner the Korean teams start realizing this and contracting their players, the better off everyone will be.
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i think its a bunch of shit. not respecting him by not talking to him first? why dont u talk to EG instead of going all over twitter about it, and they didnt even sign ur player yet. sure it might not be your responsibility to reach out but 2 wrong dont make a right and going public before even reaching out to EG is just wrong. the guy didnt even know that his own player wasn't signed yet! and he's supposed to be looking out for his player and such a nice coach etc etc as milkis said on WoC, ya man throwing ur player under the bus is real nice.
i think coach lee saw this as an opportunity for publicity for him and his team and just ran with it.
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I thought the most pertinent pieces of information in the interview were:
Puma wasn't getting a salary from TSL (only FD, Tester, Clide were).
Puma wasn't under contract from TSL, a situation Coach Lee was well aware of.
TSL is currently struggling as a team and has recently lost 3 of its top players (FD, Tester, Rain).
TSL is currently having a hard time finding sponsors due to poor tournament results.
How anyone could find fault in Puma seeking greener pastures is beyond me! I hold no animus towards TSL, and enjoy watching their players, but its not as if the team's roots go back years and years.
Puma is a professional gamer, which means hes doing this as employment. If I wasn't getting a salary and someone offered me one in my chosen field, I'd certainly accept the offer. I think its hypocritical for Coach Lee to feel sad that another team grabbed Puma when Coach Lee didn't deem Puma good enough to offer him a salary.
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On July 22 2011 12:34 GTR wrote:
Anything you would like to say to the other teams?
I hope that the other teams don’t end up in a similar situation to us; furthermore, I would also like the players to understand some of these implications. It may not be easy to implement, but I hope to see standard agreements to become the norm when it comes to recruiting and having the rights to a player.
I find this part disturbing. Teams should not have rights to a player unless they are willing to give something in return. That means no rights without salaries and player retains complete freedom after a contract ends. Also no open ended contracts.
You can pay someone to work for you or you can command loyalty through personal relationships and a shared vision. But to expect someone to be loyal to an organization and provide almost nothing in return is just unfair.
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On July 22 2011 12:50 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote:
I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality. Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.
As an Asian, I think that culture is major BS. It's always "honor and respect" when the employer asks you to do things like work overtime without pay or not take a pay raise. But then when the employee wants a raise, the employer doesn't care about honor and respect.
What the employer doesn't understand is that honor and respect has to go both ways.
PuMa left because he obviously wasn't treated in a way that he felt was honorable and respectful towards him. I'm sure he is getting a pay upgrade with EG as well as more opportunity to play foreign tournaments.
TSL was artificially handicapping him and the only honorable and respectful thing to do was for PuMa to leave.
If TSL wanted to lock down PuMA then PAY THE MAN. It's like every other sport in the world. If you want to keep an athlete on the team, them pay him extra to sign a contract. Otherwise, tough luck.
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Good read. Thank for the interview!
Interesting to hear that Rains dad lives in New York didn't know that before  . Makes much more sense why he wanted to join a foreign team.
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Coach Lee seems like a good guy. It's too bad this didn't happen in a more up-front manner.
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On July 22 2011 22:41 DukeEsquire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 12:50 oxxo wrote:On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote:
I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality. Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this. As an Asian, I think that culture is major BS. It's always "honor and respect" when the employer asks you to do things like work overtime without pay or not take a pay raise. But then when the employee wants a raise, the employer doesn't care about honor and respect. What the employer doesn't understand is that honor and respect has to go both ways. PuMa left because he obviously wasn't treated in a way that he felt was honorable and respectful towards him. I'm sure he is getting a pay upgrade with EG as well as more opportunity to play foreign tournaments. TSL was artificially handicapping him and the only honorable and respectful thing to do was for PuMa to leave. If TSL wanted to lock down PuMA then PAY THE MAN. It's like every other sport in the world. If you want to keep an athlete on the team, them pay him extra to sign a contract. Otherwise, tough luck.
Someone give this guy a medal. My thoughts exactly.
Honour and respect are such easy words to throw around. But when you're working tons of unpaid overtime with nothing in return it borders exploitation. The sad thing is that it's not restricted to the local culture. Japanese/ Koreans/ Chinese who work in large Asian companies within the UK (London especially) basically dont have a life from Monday to Friday (and possible Saturday) no matter what UK legislation says and all that.
I'm glad to see Puma actually make a tough decision and do what he wants to do.
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TSL is doing their best to promote Esport in Korea
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EPT
