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On July 22 2011 17:02 thanhbao86 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 16:10 IslandLife wrote:On July 22 2011 15:58 thanhbao86 wrote:
Man, if I have a pro team, I will prevent this AG guy from getting near my players. He will only brings bad news to the manager of the team. (CS 1.6 now this Puma incident), It explains his styles though. Or as he has said. It is not ethically wrong, it is how we do at EG. Good for you, and your team EG. Hope that model works for you or one day it will bite you in your ass.
This stuff happens a lot in soccer (especially Arsenal). A team approaches the player, even with the contract, the player stop practicing, blah blah blah. Eventually you have to transfer him.
But again, no publicity is bad publicity. Good for EG i guess. So if Arsenal found a phenom 19 year old striker who was getting room and board from a team in the Woolwich & Eltham Sunday Football Alliance, and had NO contract they would talk to the coach and make sure it is okay for them to talk with the player?? Would that matter one whit?? Is anyone open to the idea that not having Puma on a contract was marginally exploitative?? You know in some countries it is illegal to have a contract before 18 right. So yah, it is not illegal but it is the wrong thing to do. For example, ManUtd and Arsenal have stolen players from Spain and Italy all the time in the past, Pique, Macheda and the Fabregas. Don't you think ManUtd and Arsenal should talk to Barca first before stealing their players. Those players Barca had trained them since they were 14 and when they are 17-18 Arsenal and ManUtd come in and take them. Same for this case, Puma was under a moral contract. The right thing to do is to respect that. Its not illegal what EG has done (everyone agrees on this) but it is not the right thing to do because you exploit the laws (soccer example) or the cultural concept (Puma example). So yah please stop with the no contract crap, everyone realizes that. But you cant take it out of the context of Korean SC2 environment. If you say about a case in NA, i have no problem. However, If you come to Korea and do business there (as EG plans to do), you got to respect their culture and the system they are running. Simple as that. You cant use your western culture mindset to apply there, its two different cultures. The fact that AG doing this only makes Korea SC2 more self-contained as they have to protect themselves from incidents like this happen again. AG on the other hand states that Korea should be more open about players transfer. They could be open if everyone approaches it on the respectful manner, but if you just come in and steal one of the best of their players and you expect them to be open. What kind of logic is that. EG did a bad move and instead of publicly admitting it they just give a general apologising and then blame other parties. If EG doesnot understand Korean culture and why Coach Lee upset, they should just not do business there.
If you honestly believe that Korean business culture revolves around "moral contracts" I advise you not to pursue a career in business in Korea.
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Did people miss the point where PuMa said to EG that the conversation with coach lee had gone well and that he was allowed to leave? Why would EG contact him when, from what they heard, everything was fine? I just dont get it..
Edit: spelling..
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If you can't beat them, buy them?
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What a sad story. Poor Coach Lee. Clide has refound a special place in my heart now though! Really hope you guys can pull it together over the next few months and come out stronger than ever.
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On July 22 2011 17:36 aderum wrote:
Did people miss the point where PuMa said to EG that the conversation with coach lee had gone well and that he was allowed to leave? Why would EG contact him when, from what the heard, everyting was fine? I just dont get it..
Wait what? Source please.
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On July 22 2011 17:41 jorge_the_awesome wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 17:36 aderum wrote:
Did people miss the point where PuMa said to EG that the conversation with coach lee had gone well and that he was allowed to leave? Why would EG contact him when, from what the heard, everyting was fine? I just dont get it.. Wait what? Source please.
It was said in WoC that PuMa told EG that the conversation with the coach had gone well and that he was allowed to leave. And then all of a sudden this interview poped up.
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Couch Lee even goes so far as to threaten Puma with community hate, then claims to part as friends just to turn around and start all of this by going public with loaded statements in line with "they take our players!"
I think it is pretty sad to shit all over your former player Puma and another team because your team model does not work and fails motivating players to stay. I get the frustration, but why fight this on the back of a player who might not even get signed after this negative publicity.
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On July 22 2011 13:25 FLuE wrote:
Whatever unspoken "rules" exist in Korea about how they handle players doesn't have to exist everywhere else in the world. The great thing about eSports is that it doesn't have to be about location or nationality. Players can find ways to play together, practice, travel to events, etc. even if they aren't living in the same country. The teams and coaches in Korea have to understand there is great opportunity outside of Korea right now and it is going to be hard to blame players looking to go after those opportunities.
You are going to see more of this in SC2 because the money for SC2 isn't in Korea. The SC2 scene in Europe and NA is really booming and there is money there especially for the talented but 2nd tier Korean players. Puma can stay in Korea and do OK, or he can join EG and travel the world and be a stud and make money while it is there to be made. Now when I say the money is there it might not always be the big GSL payday, but there are so many more smaller tournaments with more spread prize pools that your chances of coming away with something are much greater.
One thing with eSports, it can be a fickle beast. Games can really decline and potentially die at anytime. Right now SC2 seems to be doing well and there is money being put into it, players who are smart will do all they can to earn it while they can because you never know if that well might dry up. I think it is safe to say we'll enjoy SC2 for a long time with the expansions and all, but that doesn't always mean the money will be there just because the game is. Again, I think SC2 is going to really flourish as an eSport but I don't think it will be in Korea.
I respect that a player like Clide stayed, but it is a decision he might regret. Loyalty is overrated because you are really banking on the other side reciprocating it at some point and that can be risky(it happens in sports all the time, one player remains loyal but gets hurt and then gets cut by the team he was loyal to, etc.)
My last point, from interviews and what I can gather about how Korean players are treated I think this could be a good thing. I think Korean players are often talked about not even as people but borderline indentured servants. They have rigid practice schedules, live in tight quarters, have minimal pay.... and all that and you might never even make it to Code S where you can actually make some money. Puma isn't going through all this just because he feels like it. The offer he got had to be much better than his current situation because if it was just marginally better he probably stays. Now this isn't all the teams and I know some players are very comfortable but you hear in the interview they have players on TSL not even on a salary but a stipend? Seriously, you are surprised that players are leaving your team when he admits they are barely holding on to their sponsors, having money problems? Sounds to me like Puma was smart here and saw what was coming and made sure to take care of himself before this thing folded.
QFT. I'm not entirely sure speaking with the coach could have been the best thing to do, either. He is not a bad person, but if you can't pay your players then you should not make them sign contracts... because that forces them into a very difficult choice. It would be difficult to refuse signing a contract, because they must have a major shift in life style (risk losing good practice, find new living quarters, potentially lose close friends). If they sign and don't get payed, they're also screwed (Indentured servantry as you touched on).
Puma did the absolute best thing for himself, and that is truly what matters.
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"Clide and SangHo returned the salaries / stipends that they received to provide some additional financial support for the whole team."
"If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns."
"Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. "
Music to my ears~~ down with the Korean scene! Your dominance is coming to an end!
User was temp banned for this post.
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i hope TSL pulls through, CLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE!!! shall fullfill the prophecy of tastosis <.<
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On July 22 2011 18:05 thepuppyassassin wrote:
"Clide and SangHo returned the salaries / stipends that they received to provide some additional financial support for the whole team."
"If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns."
"Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. "
Music to my ears~~ down with the Korean scene! Your dominance is coming to an end!
Stop posting here
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On July 22 2011 16:59 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 16:55 maybenexttime wrote:On July 22 2011 16:28 LittleAtari wrote:
I can't believe people want to boycott EG. It would be BM to harass a contracted member of a team with constant offers, but Puma was not under contract. A contract tells your team members that they are solid and wanted. Even if someone is contracted, it is also possible to buy someone out of their contract. This was a decision that Puma made and EG saw an opportunity. They offered him something better than he was getting on his own team. What was he supposed to do? Wait around and maybe he'll make code S? Sit around without a set/stable salary and live off stipends on a team that was making cuts?
A lot of people here are just being unreasonable. I am not so sure they offered him something better, though. They offered him a salary, a set contract and travel expenses to the major tournaments around the world. Compare that to TSL's offer of food, a bunk-bed and a few GSTL appearances a month. It seems like a pretty good offer.
How do you know whether his salary doesnt just cover his costs of living (unless he decides to move to the EG house)? I also think TSL would cover travel expenses.
PuMa was a scrub in BW, I do not believe he's some undiscovered talent that shone in SC2. Imo EG won't be able to provide him with proper practice and he'll fade into obscurity.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On July 22 2011 18:15 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 18:05 thepuppyassassin wrote:
"Clide and SangHo returned the salaries / stipends that they received to provide some additional financial support for the whole team."
"If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns."
"Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. "
Music to my ears~~ down with the Korean scene! Your dominance is coming to an end! Stop posting here
#2
without korea all this "esport" thing that is happening right here wouldn't exist, you aware eh?
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Starcraft 2 just needs a little bit of time until it's balanced more.. I mean look at the first year or so: how many changes there have been, and still they are continuing to change..... SC2 just isnt balanced yet and thats why so many ppl dont watch it and the fanbase is low - but in time, there'll be more fans and even in korea bw will eventually fully shit to sc2 i think.
Also, im very interested in EG's statement in this 
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On July 22 2011 18:05 thepuppyassassin wrote:
"Clide and SangHo returned the salaries / stipends that they received to provide some additional financial support for the whole team."
"If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns."
"Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. "
Music to my ears~~ down with the Korean scene! Your dominance is coming to an end!
Without the Korean scene the SC2 "esports" would've been a complete joke, another After Hours Gaming League (not dissing AHGL, it's all good, I'm talking about the level of involvement). Koreans strive to be the best. Without them, foreigners wouldn't even have an incentive to really practice.
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United Kingdom38156 Posts
Wow Clide and Sangho, I think their decision to reimburse TSL with their salary to help the team speaks volumes on that whole trust thing people are getting hung up on. So much respect for both of them.
This was actually a really interesting interview, not just because it goes deeper into the contract situation in Korea, but it also touches upon the struggles of the Korean SC2 game to explode, confirms FD and Tester left because they didn't want to practice hard, and gives a bit more info on Rain's desire to go abroad.
Best of luck to Coach Lee and TSL for the future!
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On July 22 2011 12:53 MrDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 12:48 VeryAverage wrote:
I know the whole "hurting eSports" thing is overplayed to death, but seriously, this really is.
The best players are in Korea (look how much Huk improved from practicing there). The hardest competition is in Korea. Therefore, the best players should stay in Korea. Yeah, having a foreign scene is cool, but Korea has proven that they will stick with it for years and years, while this foreign scene could be a flash in the pan for all we know.
I hope we don't just start buying up people so we can kill the small and fragile SC2 scene there.
Yet the korean scene barely survives. Why? Because they have bad business sense, it was a foolish decision for one league to own all the rights to SC2 in korea.
I agree with this, judging from the latest talks between kespa and blizzard after the contract is up with gom it looks like kespa may be interested in entering the sc2 scene.
There is no reason to have 1 company provide the only tournament, there should be multiple broadcasted tournaments going on, regardless of popularity there is still a huge talent pool of sc2 players in korea and more than one tournament going on seems more than appropriate.
Regardless of the hate for kespa they did things right with BW fromm a business perspective, and having a kespa like organisation with more leniancy for going to foreign tournaments is what they need in korea IMO. I dont agree with AG at all in saying that if you have an organsation like that that he has to be closed off fromm the rest of the world.
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On July 22 2011 18:23 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 16:59 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 16:55 maybenexttime wrote:On July 22 2011 16:28 LittleAtari wrote:
I can't believe people want to boycott EG. It would be BM to harass a contracted member of a team with constant offers, but Puma was not under contract. A contract tells your team members that they are solid and wanted. Even if someone is contracted, it is also possible to buy someone out of their contract. This was a decision that Puma made and EG saw an opportunity. They offered him something better than he was getting on his own team. What was he supposed to do? Wait around and maybe he'll make code S? Sit around without a set/stable salary and live off stipends on a team that was making cuts?
A lot of people here are just being unreasonable. I am not so sure they offered him something better, though. They offered him a salary, a set contract and travel expenses to the major tournaments around the world. Compare that to TSL's offer of food, a bunk-bed and a few GSTL appearances a month. It seems like a pretty good offer. How do you know whether his salary doesnt just cover his costs of living (unless he decides to move to the EG house)? I also think TSL would cover travel expenses. PuMa was a scrub in BW, I do not believe he's some undiscovered talent that shone in SC2. Imo EG won't be able to provide him with proper practice and he'll fade into obscurity. ]
These are exactly my thoughts, in a few months we will be going "puma who"?
Im honestly already over it i was a huge fan for over a week, and now that EG has left a huge decision that could up to a 19 year old that could potentially ruin his bright future instead of contacting the team and doing things right is a huge shame. Obviously puma handeled it poorly but what did EG expect leaving player negotiations (basically) up to an akward 19 year old korean boy.
There is no way EG will beable to provide anything at all similair to TSL practice environment/ coaching for puma in korea.
AG pretty much said puma will be staying in korea and they will be trying to set up a good environment for his improvement, but it sounds like a crock of shit to me.
I dont see how they could beyond buying a team house and signing a bunch more korean players.
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On July 22 2011 18:40 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 12:53 MrDudeMan wrote:On July 22 2011 12:48 VeryAverage wrote:
I know the whole "hurting eSports" thing is overplayed to death, but seriously, this really is.
The best players are in Korea (look how much Huk improved from practicing there). The hardest competition is in Korea. Therefore, the best players should stay in Korea. Yeah, having a foreign scene is cool, but Korea has proven that they will stick with it for years and years, while this foreign scene could be a flash in the pan for all we know.
I hope we don't just start buying up people so we can kill the small and fragile SC2 scene there.
Yet the korean scene barely survives. Why? Because they have bad business sense, it was a foolish decision for one league to own all the rights to SC2 in korea. I agree with this, judging from the latest talks between kespa and blizzard after the contract is up with gom it looks like kespa may be interested in entering the sc2 scene. There is no reason to have 1 company provide the only tournament, there should be multiple broadcasted tournaments going on, regardless of popularity there is still a huge talent pool of sc2 players in korea and more than one tournament going on seems more than appropriate. Regardless of the hate for kespa they did things right with BW fromm a business perspective, and having a kespa like organisation with more leniancy for going to foreign tournaments is what they need in korea IMO. I dont agree with AG at all in saying that if you have an organsation like that that he has to be closed off fromm the rest of the world.
I agree, though it's not like KeSPA was/is against Korean progamers going abroad. They had plenty of their WC3 progamers compete in non-Korean events, as well as many BW progamers competing in varioud Chinese events. It's just that, besides WCG, there was no significant non-Korean/non-Chinese BW event that actually allowed Korean progamers to participate (because they were so much better and people wanted to have some tournaments that aren't completely dominated by Koreans, which was understandable).
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I'm sure if EG would have spoken to coach lee first he would have agreed to let PuMa go.
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EPT
