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On July 22 2011 18:05 thepuppyassassin wrote:
"Clide and SangHo returned the salaries / stipends that they received to provide some additional financial support for the whole team."
"If I said I was satisfied I would be lying. The difficulty in getting placed in the GSL and the fact that we have no other leagues are some of my concerns."
"Very few professional Korean SC2 players currently “enjoy” playing Starcraft 2 due to the small fan base. "
Music to my ears~~ down with the Korean scene! Your dominance is coming to an end!
User was temp banned for this post.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=821#16432
jesus only 2 days, give him 14 make him think before speaks here on tl.
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Interesting interview and I hope TSL keeps going as a team and there are no more major problems, they have some great players.
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I can only assume some of you weren't around when Esports was still growing. The passion and love for the games were the driving forces back then. There was almost no money or formality. People loved it and pushed it. That is what I get from this TSL ordeal. It's a group of gives doing what they love and trying to make it work. You can go with all you "oh they don't have contracts what morons" thoughts all you want but that isn't how we got here today. That isn't how SC2 became what it is or how CS exploded. Sure the natural evolution is to get professional but it seems obvious the Korean SC2 scene is in the building phase. Don't shit all over it for doing what we have done just because you don't know the hardships of not having a big scene.
Have some heart.
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On July 22 2011 23:13 Numy wrote:
I can only assume some of you weren't around when Esports was still growing. The passion and love for the games were the driving forces back then. There was almost no money or formality. People loved it and pushed it. That is what I get from this TSL ordeal. It's a group of gives doing what they love and trying to make it work. You can go with all you "oh they don't have contracts what morons" thoughts all you want but that isn't how we got here today. That isn't how SC2 became what it is or how CS exploded. Sure the natural evolution is to get professional but it seems obvious the Korean SC2 scene is in the building phase. Don't shit all over it for doing what we have done just because you don't know the hardships of not having a big scene.
Have some heart.
You know you're right. But unfortunately times have changed so much. Amateur clans are almost non-existent, everyone plays for money, there arent any no-money tournaments any more.
Pretty depressing but that is how it is. Players just hop on different teams all the time now. Loyalty doesnt mean much when you get a paycheck after a win, or rather it seems like it's assured that way...
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On July 22 2011 18:55 LucyApple wrote:
My Interpretation,
What I get from this interview with Coach Lee: it seems like Coach Lee knew about the Puma's deal with EG after he came back to Korea and felt that Puma already made up his mind so he decided to release him. Puma had already signed with EG since he had no contract with TSL. (Puma = stressed out, not being himself)
What I heard in WoC from the EG manager: it seems like EG contacted Puma personally, Puma is interested in the deal and tells EG that he will talk to Coach Lee himself about the issue. Talks between Coach Lee and Puma accorded before he come back to Korea, EG receive words from Puma that his talk with the coach went very well. Puma is not officially signed with EG yet. (Puma = happy)
Coach Lee stance: EG should have contact him directly, although Puma wasn't officially contracted with TSL, he was still morally contracted with the team (team providing him food, shelter, travel expense, practice partner, etc.), he viewed EG's action as kind of disrespectful. He was disappointed that Puma made such a big decision in a short amount of time [without talking to him first] but respects Puma's decision anyways and releases him. He feels that there need to be a system or organization that protects "foreign teams from stealing players in Korea." (possibly has some power over the players)
EG stance: EG feels that there's no need to contact Coach Lee since Puma wasn't contracted with TSL, if a team wasn't contract with their players and decides to rely on the trust and honor of their players its too bad for them (the team) if their players gets pickup by other (foreign) team since in the Western esport world, all the players were contracted to their teams. Despite all this, Puma and EG hasn't come to an agreement yet. EG feels Korean teams should be more aware of the foreign scene that they should have had contracts with their players in the first place and believes that a self-contained system or model (that restricts and control players) is not the best model for SC2 to grow as a global esport.
Seems to me like there's a miscommunication on both sides and I felt that they should have talk to each other more (privately) before releasing statements. The actual victim is not EG nor TSL but its actual Puma as he will be the one who is mostly affected by this.
The funny thing is Alex has no one to blame but himself. This self-contained system you speak of... it's heading there. Without KeSPA involvement might I add. Alex could have saved himself two years to bolster his roster.
I can understand where the Koreans are coming from. I don't think the Korean SC2 pro teams wanted to be governed the same way KeSPA governed them; however, in order to protect their assets and entity policy will have to be more strict. The old structure won't work. What used to be open and voluntarily will become closed-circuit once again. It was only a matter of time.
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On July 22 2011 22:56 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 22:41 DukeEsquire wrote:On July 22 2011 12:50 oxxo wrote:On July 22 2011 12:41 Vinx wrote:
I may be a just an asshole but when I got to this part "At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit." I just went... .r u kidding, its the 2011.... that whole part about honor and respect is kinda gone... i'm sad about it too but still know its a reality. Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this. As an Asian, I think that culture is major BS. It's always "honor and respect" when the employer asks you to do things like work overtime without pay or not take a pay raise. But then when the employee wants a raise, the employer doesn't care about honor and respect. What the employer doesn't understand is that honor and respect has to go both ways. PuMa left because he obviously wasn't treated in a way that he felt was honorable and respectful towards him. I'm sure he is getting a pay upgrade with EG as well as more opportunity to play foreign tournaments. TSL was artificially handicapping him and the only honorable and respectful thing to do was for PuMa to leave. If TSL wanted to lock down PuMA then PAY THE MAN. It's like every other sport in the world. If you want to keep an athlete on the team, them pay him extra to sign a contract. Otherwise, tough luck. Someone give this guy a medal. My thoughts exactly. Honour and respect are such easy words to throw around. But when you're working tons of unpaid overtime with nothing in return it borders exploitation. The sad thing is that it's not restricted to the local culture. Japanese/ Koreans/ Chinese who work in large Asian companies within the UK (London especially) basically dont have a life from Monday to Friday (and possible Saturday) no matter what UK legislation says and all that. I'm glad to see Puma actually make a tough decision and do what he wants to do.
It's not just in the UK or Asia, Asian companies specifically Chinese companies that operate in the US regularly exploit their employees. Long work hours, little or no benefits, low pay, and little if any vacation time. They generally only hire Asian workers because they think that Asians are more willing to put up with these type of work conditions. I worked for a chinese company after college and it makes me want to boycott everything coming out of China. People claiming that Asian cultures put an emphasis on honor and respect obviously never worked for an Asian company.
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Really insightful interview, but so sad that starcraft 2 has still to catch on in korea.
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Clide is such a great player he should have left when he had the chance he could make real money and have a better over all team now he's gonna be stuck on a contract on this dieing team. No offense but really just seems like TSl is grasping at whatever they can to keep some semblence of a team if Clide left they don't really have a team. Really seems like he's just mad because his team is falling apart right infront of him which is a majority his fault.
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On July 22 2011 23:18 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 23:13 Numy wrote:
I can only assume some of you weren't around when Esports was still growing. The passion and love for the games were the driving forces back then. There was almost no money or formality. People loved it and pushed it. That is what I get from this TSL ordeal. It's a group of gives doing what they love and trying to make it work. You can go with all you "oh they don't have contracts what morons" thoughts all you want but that isn't how we got here today. That isn't how SC2 became what it is or how CS exploded. Sure the natural evolution is to get professional but it seems obvious the Korean SC2 scene is in the building phase. Don't shit all over it for doing what we have done just because you don't know the hardships of not having a big scene.
Have some heart. You know you're right. But unfortunately times have changed so much. Amateur clans are almost non-existent, everyone plays for money, there arent any no-money tournaments any more. Pretty depressing but that is how it is. Players just hop on different teams all the time now. Loyalty doesnt mean much when you get a paycheck after a win, or rather it seems like it's assured that way...
Even back then (BW days), this shit happened all the time in the International scene. Then again, we were all amateurs with the exception of a few people like Elky, Leggionaire, etc. With that said, almost every player clan hopped one time or another. There are only a few exceptions. Best example of this would be Mondi. However, once KeSPA established itself in Korea. Player moves and trades were done directly through them. The Korean's are relatively new to this because KeSPA was strict as shit. They rule like an iron fist.
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Keep it strong Coach Lee! You guys in TSL seems to have a good team chemistry going on now and players backing YOU up with putting their own money into the team. With the high ambitions and talents you have you will get the results you guys deserve, good luck TSL!
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On July 22 2011 23:13 Numy wrote:
I can only assume some of you weren't around when Esports was still growing. The passion and love for the games were the driving forces back then. There was almost no money or formality. People loved it and pushed it. That is what I get from this TSL ordeal. It's a group of gives doing what they love and trying to make it work. You can go with all you "oh they don't have contracts what morons" thoughts all you want but that isn't how we got here today. That isn't how SC2 became what it is or how CS exploded. Sure the natural evolution is to get professional but it seems obvious the Korean SC2 scene is in the building phase. Don't shit all over it for doing what we have done just because you don't know the hardships of not having a big scene.
Have some heart.
I have great respect for those who put the future of the scene ahead of their own interests and are willing to give away their time and effort freely.
I have no respect for someone who demands this from someone else.
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Glad to see Coach Lee talk after he has calmed down. But reading this, it all looks like Puma was hesitant to comunicate while he was still debating with himself.
Then, Lee, despite talking about the backlash, fired up the light. Looks like he cared about Puma, as long as he was on the team, when he was out of the team, to hell with the guy.
Definetly dont like that position, and to all of you guys who put the blame on EG and say you hate them, and wont be watching, or boycott the sponsors and whatever.
Do it, and next step, do a favor to the scene and stop watching and posting in community sites. EG offers players better conditions so they can keep doing what they like, and not live in missery, and you find it bad. That is complete bullshit. And I see no shady acts in Puma's affair.
Just a lack of communication, and a buthurt coach putting shit on his oh so loved ex player, and the team that picked him up to give him a better living conditon.
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On July 22 2011 23:24 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 18:55 LucyApple wrote:
My Interpretation,
What I get from this interview with Coach Lee: it seems like Coach Lee knew about the Puma's deal with EG after he came back to Korea and felt that Puma already made up his mind so he decided to release him. Puma had already signed with EG since he had no contract with TSL. (Puma = stressed out, not being himself)
What I heard in WoC from the EG manager: it seems like EG contacted Puma personally, Puma is interested in the deal and tells EG that he will talk to Coach Lee himself about the issue. Talks between Coach Lee and Puma accorded before he come back to Korea, EG receive words from Puma that his talk with the coach went very well. Puma is not officially signed with EG yet. (Puma = happy)
Coach Lee stance: EG should have contact him directly, although Puma wasn't officially contracted with TSL, he was still morally contracted with the team (team providing him food, shelter, travel expense, practice partner, etc.), he viewed EG's action as kind of disrespectful. He was disappointed that Puma made such a big decision in a short amount of time [without talking to him first] but respects Puma's decision anyways and releases him. He feels that there need to be a system or organization that protects "foreign teams from stealing players in Korea." (possibly has some power over the players)
EG stance: EG feels that there's no need to contact Coach Lee since Puma wasn't contracted with TSL, if a team wasn't contract with their players and decides to rely on the trust and honor of their players its too bad for them (the team) if their players gets pickup by other (foreign) team since in the Western esport world, all the players were contracted to their teams. Despite all this, Puma and EG hasn't come to an agreement yet. EG feels Korean teams should be more aware of the foreign scene that they should have had contracts with their players in the first place and believes that a self-contained system or model (that restricts and control players) is not the best model for SC2 to grow as a global esport.
Seems to me like there's a miscommunication on both sides and I felt that they should have talk to each other more (privately) before releasing statements. The actual victim is not EG nor TSL but its actual Puma as he will be the one who is mostly affected by this. The funny thing is Alex has no one to blame but himself. This self-contained system you speak of... it's heading there. Without KeSPA involvement might I add. Alex could have saved himself two years to bolster his roster. I can understand where the Koreans are coming from. I don't think the Korean SC2 pro teams wanted to be governed the same way KeSPA governed them; however, in order to protect their assets and entity policy will have to be more strict. The old structure won't work. What used to be open and voluntarily will become closed-circuit once again. It was only a matter of time.
Well I wasn't involved in BW, but KeSPA is more of a "we own everything" if I understand correctly? I think SC2 only really needs some kind of FIFA organisation, which all the teams sign a 'We will behave like this' kind of thing with. I mean this kind of poaching I feel should be looked down upon(and thankfully it is), and it's just clear that there need to be some written things about it, rather than just rules of being 'nice/curtious'.
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Wow, will be supporting TSL more and more especially Clide and SangHo! They definitely deserve some respect there!!
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On July 22 2011 14:49 whaty0uwant wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:38 -Frog- wrote:On July 22 2011 13:33 whaty0uwant wrote:
Feel bad for coach lee. Puma... what a dick move. At least give a months notice or something. Puma didn't even sign a contract yet. Wow so that makes it ok? It's called human decency. Wow... /facepalm.
Human decency? How about this, PuMa was on a team which was falling apart, barely any money left, barely any sponsors. He gets an offer to join a team that can fly him to any tournaments, give him salary and ontop of that give him everything that TSL was already doing (basically, a place to stay at and food). Is it humanly indecent to refuse such an offer huh? If he would stay on the sinking ship aka TSL chances are that he'd end up without a team and nowhere to go...
I can't believe ppl fault PuMa for his decision.
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Wow, i will certainly support Sangho and Clide from now on. What a class act from them, being loyal to their team/clan (TSL certainly has the clan atmosphere) to the point of giving back money to keep them afloat. It is so impressive, it really remembers you what e-sports was about, when the BW foreign pros could train for months just for a shot on a 300 dollars tournament and be happy because they loved the game. Kudos to Clide, Sangho and Coach Lee. Coach Lee seems to be such a kind man... miles away from Alex -business is business so fuck you- Garfield and the EG management.
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Good luck coach. Keep up the passion!
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Even if Puma had a contract with TSL, it would've still been a dick move by EG to approach him directly, they are lucky that esport is still a young industry with no governing body. At least now Korean Teams will wise up now and actually sign contracts with players, which is a good thing for both parties. This interview confirmed all my previous speculations about the state of SC2 team sponsorships in Korea as well.
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Wow, must be a difficult time for TSL, hope they pull through this and continue to spread ESPORTS in Korea.
As for Puma, it wasn't cool what he did, but playing in the US and owning white dudes is, IMHO and in his, a better alternative to attempting to get into Code S for the nth time.
But damn, Clide and Killer giving back their salaries for their team? That is incredible altruism and teamwork and dedication. Artosis is gonna have a lot of people gunning for that Clide's No.1 Fan spot now. 
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Foreign team going as forign teams go and then signs a player from korea seeing big talent that would add a great addition to his team with already large publicity in america.
Finds out hes not on contract goes lol what newbs I can pay that guy so much money and he'd still be worth it.
Korean people don't understand this. Expect everyone to follow the same rules as before.
Just a clase of cultures and expectations. It'll all blow over soon enough. Its as much TSL's fault as EG's but it still means that EG will regain dominance over NA.
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EPT
