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On July 23 2011 02:30 Carkis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:13 purecarnagge wrote:
So if PUMA isn't under contract. Why does EG need to contact him? He has no obligation to that team.
I get the coaches frustration
-talented player leaves
- spent time developing
- wasn't able to secure funding due to economy/lack of overall sc2 fan success
- GSL is nice but unless its code S it doesn't pay the bills. you are ignoring a lot here. just because it wasnt legally binded it doesnt mean there shouldnt be respect given to coach lee. Yes legally there is no obligation but in a tightnit community like ours respect goes a long way. I know a lot of players teams and most importantly fans will not forget this lack of respect very easily
welcome to the world of business
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United States15275 Posts
On July 23 2011 02:35 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:27 Carkis wrote:On July 22 2011 12:42 mols0n wrote:On July 22 2011 12:37 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 12:34 Emporio wrote:Holy crap dude, where's EG's statement in this? Biased as shit. + Show Spoiler +jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily. No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting. I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team have to say I agree, EG has done a lot of bad rep in the past they are really BM in the sc2 community. especially if u rememeber the STOG where tyler and incontrol had it out. Ive really lost a lot for EG. They have great players and I would love to cheer for them.. but I cant lets be fair, they have one great player, who i dont even know is elite anymore since he apparently doesnt practice as much. the rest of eg, for one reason or another, is pretty average. idk if this is an opinion shared by others, but i hate the idea of buying up good players. i much rather prefer players that teams train and grow on their own, like huk with liquid.
Why do you think they are more willing to pick up talented Korean players instead of raising talented homegrown players? The international scene is woefully underdeveloped in terms of an infrastructure that can reliably cultivate talent. Every month we hear about 2-3 new Korean players who are suddenly destroying everything in their path, and outside of it we have...Naniwa? Minigun?
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If any other team would of done this everyone would be "oh ye there was probably just misunderstading yeah" but now when it's EG everyone is "motherfu****s I can't believe they didn't contact Lee OMG"
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On July 23 2011 02:42 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:30 Carkis wrote:On July 23 2011 02:13 purecarnagge wrote:
So if PUMA isn't under contract. Why does EG need to contact him? He has no obligation to that team.
I get the coaches frustration
-talented player leaves
- spent time developing
- wasn't able to secure funding due to economy/lack of overall sc2 fan success
- GSL is nice but unless its code S it doesn't pay the bills. you are ignoring a lot here. just because it wasnt legally binded it doesnt mean there shouldnt be respect given to coach lee. Yes legally there is no obligation but in a tightnit community like ours respect goes a long way. I know a lot of players teams and most importantly fans will not forget this lack of respect very easily welcome to the world of business
LOL world of business my ass, if you know anything about doing international business, then AG's bullshit about "This is how we do it in the west" is the most retarded statement ever.
It's almost worth a case study in a business class for being an example of how NOT to do international business.
If you want to keep doing business with Koreans, you better fucking respect what they respect. Yes you don't give a shit about
Do you think EG will want to keep doing business in SC2 scene with the Koreans? You bet your ass they would.
TSL is not the only team who don't have contract with their players, that's just how sc2 scene works right now in Korea.
Sure, EG can take advantage of that and burn them once. What about the future? You think Korea teams will want to deal with EG from now on? What kind of impression does your business leave on the Korea teams if you clearly don't give a shit about their hidden rules and respect their values?
We all know how Korea team coaches and players are close. Sure, EG stole a risen star, but next time EG's managers won't even have a CHANCE of getting close to these players Korean teams send out.
You don't think they wouldn't learn from their mistakes, would you?
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What's with these people acting like they know about how internation business works?
This is not a one time deal, grab your cash and run the fuck away. If you are in the Sc2 business, you are in a business that have to deal with Koreans.
Do Koreas think this is shady? Of course they do.
Does EG think this is shady? Maybe not.
Does EG want to do more business with Koreans? Of course they do, where else would they steal more players.
Do you think Korean teams would think twice before doing ANYTHING EG related next time?
Of course, do you think they are retarded or something?
What foreigners or EG thinks about how they do international business doesn't matter ( in fact from the reaction of foreigners, EG's actions are not well recieved either).
You are doing business with Koreans, and you better fucking respect their ethics. Saying "this is how we do things you better get used to it LOLOLOL" will not get your second deal done.
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On July 23 2011 02:30 Carkis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:13 purecarnagge wrote:
So if PUMA isn't under contract. Why does EG need to contact him? He has no obligation to that team.
I get the coaches frustration
-talented player leaves
- spent time developing
- wasn't able to secure funding due to economy/lack of overall sc2 fan success
- GSL is nice but unless its code S it doesn't pay the bills. you are ignoring a lot here. just because it wasnt legally binded it doesnt mean there shouldnt be respect given to coach lee. Yes legally there is no obligation but in a tightnit community like ours respect goes a long way. I know a lot of players teams and most importantly fans will not forget this lack of respect very easily
Even if EG contacted coach Lee first, they still would have put the same offer on the table. Puma is his own person, TSL in no way owns him.
It's just like if you get a better job offer, do you expect the company with the offer to contact your boss? Or do you owe your current company anything? No, and you should take the better offer. This is what this situation is, and while it sucks for TSL, ultimately it's better for Puma, and that's what we should be focusing on here.
^and why can't Mioraka write in paragraphs? ;_;
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On July 23 2011 03:08 Mioraka wrote:
What's with these people acting like they know about how internation business works?
This is not a one time deal, grab your cash and run the fuck away. If you are in the Sc2 business, you are in a business that have to deal with Koreans.
Do Koreas think this is shady? Of course they do.
Does EG think this is shady? Maybe not.
Does EG want to do more business with Koreans? Of course they do, where else would they steal more players.
Do you think Korean teams would think twice before doing ANYTHING EG related next time?
Of course, do you think they are retarded or something?
What foreigners or EG thinks about how they do international business doesn't matter ( in fact from the reaction of foreigners, EG's actions are not well recieved either).
You are doing business with Koreans, and you better fucking respect their ethics. Saying "this is how we do things you better get used to it LOLOLOL" will not get your second deal done.
I´m quoting this because its the truth.
Many of the armchair businessmen here think that this was a good way to do business but no, its a terrible way to do it. Now Korean teams will have contracts and will be less likely to do business to do.
Business transactions are usually mutually beneficial most of the time, so that kind of thing is done with a lot of respect and compromise. In both West East North and Sout.
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On July 23 2011 03:08 Mioraka wrote:
What's with these people acting like they know about how internation business works?
This is not a one time deal, grab your cash and run the fuck away. If you are in the Sc2 business, you are in a business that have to deal with Koreans.
Do Koreas think this is shady? Of course they do.
Does EG think this is shady? Maybe not.
Does EG want to do more business with Koreans? Of course they do, where else would they steal more players.
Do you think Korean teams would think twice before doing ANYTHING EG related next time?
Of course, do you think they are retarded or something?
What foreigners or EG thinks about how they do international business doesn't matter ( in fact from the reaction of foreigners, EG's actions are not well recieved either).
You are doing business with Koreans, and you better fucking respect their ethics. Saying "this is how we do things you better get used to it LOLOLOL" will not get your second deal done.
Wow never seen this type of "internet tough guy" before, Mr international businessman.
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On July 23 2011 03:18 Steamroller wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 03:08 Mioraka wrote:
What's with these people acting like they know about how internation business works?
This is not a one time deal, grab your cash and run the fuck away. If you are in the Sc2 business, you are in a business that have to deal with Koreans.
Do Koreas think this is shady? Of course they do.
Does EG think this is shady? Maybe not.
Does EG want to do more business with Koreans? Of course they do, where else would they steal more players.
Do you think Korean teams would think twice before doing ANYTHING EG related next time?
Of course, do you think they are retarded or something?
What foreigners or EG thinks about how they do international business doesn't matter ( in fact from the reaction of foreigners, EG's actions are not well recieved either).
You are doing business with Koreans, and you better fucking respect their ethics. Saying "this is how we do things you better get used to it LOLOLOL" will not get your second deal done. Wow never seen this type of "internet tough guy" before, Mr international businessman.
Thanks for contributing to the discuss with your valuable input, tool.
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I really don't get this argument that Western teams should do things the Korean way.
The SC2 scene is far more global than BW ever was. The roles have been reversed, the Western teams have the money to pay players and Korean team in general don't atm. If anything the Koreans should be doing thing the western way since thats where the game is really taking off.
What happens if SC2 never blows up huge in Korea but they have set up their own way of doing things, all the money is in the west and western teams want korean players? Why should the guys with all the money and bargaining chips have to conform to the Koreans wishes?
More over, EG approached a player, the player was interested, the player spoke to his team. That seems like a fairly normal and above board way of doing things, they didn't sign him to a contract before he spoke to his coach, they didn't force him to do anything, they simply made an offer. Coach Lee released the information to the public without ever giving EG a chance to talk to him directly.
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On July 23 2011 03:18 Steamroller wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 03:08 Mioraka wrote:
What's with these people acting like they know about how internation business works?
This is not a one time deal, grab your cash and run the fuck away. If you are in the Sc2 business, you are in a business that have to deal with Koreans.
Do Koreas think this is shady? Of course they do.
Does EG think this is shady? Maybe not.
Does EG want to do more business with Koreans? Of course they do, where else would they steal more players.
Do you think Korean teams would think twice before doing ANYTHING EG related next time?
Of course, do you think they are retarded or something?
What foreigners or EG thinks about how they do international business doesn't matter ( in fact from the reaction of foreigners, EG's actions are not well recieved either).
You are doing business with Koreans, and you better fucking respect their ethics. Saying "this is how we do things you better get used to it LOLOLOL" will not get your second deal done. Wow never seen this type of "internet tough guy" before, Mr international businessman.
stop trolling, his points were very good
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On July 23 2011 03:22 emythrel wrote:
I really don't the this argument that Western teams should do things the Korean way.
The SC2 scene is far more global than BW ever was. The roles have been reversed, the Western teams have the money to pay players and Korean team in general don't atm. If anything the Koreans should be doing thing the western way since thats where the game is really taking off.
What happens if SC2 never blows up huge in Korea but they have set up their own way of doing things, all the money is in the west and western teams want korean players? Why should the guys with all the money and bargaining chips have to conform to the Koreans wishes?
More over, EG approached a player, the player was interested, the player spoke to his team. That seems like a fairly normal and above board way of doing things, they didn't sign him to a contract before he spoke to his coach, they didn't force him to do anything, they simply made an offer. Coach Lee released the information to the public without ever giving EG a chance to talk to him directly.
Yeah it's far more global.
Yet you still need Korean players to participate, no?
Korea still has the highest quantity of good players, no?
You still want to do business with Koreans, no?
If you want to do business with them, you better respect their values, no?
Besides, it's not like this is some Korea BS that no one from outside respects and understands, sure. Maybe that's some non sense we should change.
But seeing how the entire Korean community + half of the TL thinks EG's deal is shady, I doubt EG is clapping and cheering for a good decision they have made right now.
Besides, can you stop saying how Coach Lee gave EG no chance to talk to him? EG had 10 days, but no, they decided to leave it up to a 19 years old boy who does nothing but play starcraft for his teenage years to talk to his Coach about how he's leaving the team as soon as he blew up.
Good decision right there.
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On July 23 2011 03:18 Steamroller wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 03:08 Mioraka wrote:
What's with these people acting like they know about how internation business works?
This is not a one time deal, grab your cash and run the fuck away. If you are in the Sc2 business, you are in a business that have to deal with Koreans.
Do Koreas think this is shady? Of course they do.
Does EG think this is shady? Maybe not.
Does EG want to do more business with Koreans? Of course they do, where else would they steal more players.
Do you think Korean teams would think twice before doing ANYTHING EG related next time?
Of course, do you think they are retarded or something?
What foreigners or EG thinks about how they do international business doesn't matter ( in fact from the reaction of foreigners, EG's actions are not well recieved either).
You are doing business with Koreans, and you better fucking respect their ethics. Saying "this is how we do things you better get used to it LOLOLOL" will not get your second deal done. Wow never seen this type of "internet tough guy" before, Mr international businessman.
But he is right, if anything the internet ¨though guys¨ are the ones trying to sound hardass by saying that that is the way business are made, which is not really true most of the time.
If you don´t agree at least put some effort in making a point instead of calling somebody with valid points ¨internet though guys¨
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On July 23 2011 03:22 emythrel wrote:
I really don't get this argument that Western teams should do things the Korean way.
The SC2 scene is far more global than BW ever was. The roles have been reversed, the Western teams have the money to pay players and Korean team in general don't atm. If anything the Koreans should be doing thing the western way since thats where the game is really taking off.
What happens if SC2 never blows up huge in Korea but they have set up their own way of doing things, all the money is in the west and western teams want korean players? Why should the guys with all the money and bargaining chips have to conform to the Koreans wishes?
More over, EG approached a player, the player was interested, the player spoke to his team. That seems like a fairly normal and above board way of doing things, they didn't sign him to a contract before he spoke to his coach, they didn't force him to do anything, they simply made an offer. Coach Lee released the information to the public without ever giving EG a chance to talk to him directly.
First of all, it's not "the Western teams." It's AMERICAN teams. European businesses are not as lassaiz-faire with business as Americans are (take a look at their socialist policies). So I can just turn your question on you: I really don't get this argument that Korean teams should do things the
American way.
EG had ample opportunity to talk to Lee directly. That they didn't betrays a lack of common courtesy. Even if eSports doesn't yet have a governing body or worldwide contracts, we should still act like teams and players are connected. Pretending any otherwise is utterly unintuitive and disingenuous, and I suspect everyone arguing for EG knows that. Dressing it up as "good business sense" doesn't negate the coldness of their action.
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On July 23 2011 03:27 Mioraka wrote:
Yeah it's far more global.
Yet you still need Korean players to participate, no?
Korea still has the highest quantity of good players, no?
You still want to do business with Koreans, no?
If you want to do business with them, you better respect their values, no?
Besides, it's not like this is some Korea BS that no one from outside respects and understands, sure. Maybe that's some non sense we should change.
But seeing how the entire Korean community + half of the TL thinks EG's deal is shady, I doubt EG is clapping and cheering for a good decision they have made right now.
Besides, can you stop saying how Coach Lee gave EG no chance to talk to him? EG had 10 days, but no, they decided to leave it up to a 19 years old boy who does nothing but play starcraft for his teenage years to talk to his Coach about how he's leaving the team as soon as he blew up.
Good decision right there.
It is far more global, why would the rest of the WORLD not want to intermingle with Korea. Makes sense, no?
Korea has some good players, but its not like the SC2 scene is equivalent to their BW scene. They don't have super duper world beating talent that's lightyears ahead of the rest of the world. They have some great players, no question, why not throw them in the mix with the rest of the players out there, no?
Korea only wants to do business with Korea, therefore I don't really want to do business with Korea but I need to find some way into Korea because thats what the sport needs to grow, no?
Korea wants the "west" to value their beliefs, when completely ignoring ours and calling it foul play? It's two different cultures. EG was wrong in not doing the "respectable" thing even if they didn't have to, so TSL was wrong in just assuming the rest of the world is going to comply to what they want, no?
EG probably could care less about whether or not JoeNobody on TL hates them and never ever ever buys a Razer mouse again. Especially once this blows over and PuMa continues to bring EG recognition while we haven't even seen the potential of mingling him with the rest of their team could turn into, no?
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On July 23 2011 03:27 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 03:22 emythrel wrote:
I really don't the this argument that Western teams should do things the Korean way.
The SC2 scene is far more global than BW ever was. The roles have been reversed, the Western teams have the money to pay players and Korean team in general don't atm. If anything the Koreans should be doing thing the western way since thats where the game is really taking off.
What happens if SC2 never blows up huge in Korea but they have set up their own way of doing things, all the money is in the west and western teams want korean players? Why should the guys with all the money and bargaining chips have to conform to the Koreans wishes?
More over, EG approached a player, the player was interested, the player spoke to his team. That seems like a fairly normal and above board way of doing things, they didn't sign him to a contract before he spoke to his coach, they didn't force him to do anything, they simply made an offer. Coach Lee released the information to the public without ever giving EG a chance to talk to him directly. Yeah it's far more global. Yet you still need Korean players to participate, no? Korea still has the highest quantity of good players, no? You still want to do business with Koreans, no? If you want to do business with them, you better respect their values, no? Besides, it's not like this is some Korea BS that no one from outside respects and understands, sure. Maybe that's some non sense we should change. But seeing how the entire Korean community + half of the TL thinks EG's deal is shady, I doubt EG is clapping and cheering for a good decision they have made right now.
I don't see how EG disrespected anyone. They appraoched Puma to see if he was interested, if he said no then thats the end of the discussion. He said yes, so they said "here is the general idea of the package we can give you" Puma obviously liked it. They said "What is the best way to do this?" Puma said HE would speak to his coach, Puma could have said that EG should talk to coach Lee but he didn't.
Coach Lee could have asked to speak to EG before going public to find out more about the deal and to check it was the right move for Puma, because he seems to have gotten the impression that EG want Puma only for western events when AG said last night they have been putting stuff in place for a "proper" environment for Korean players, that sounds to me like they are working to secure a house and more players in Korea.
I just personally don't see how what EG did is disrespectful but what Coach Lee has done and said isn't. He has said alot of things in an interview which are pure conjecture and he basically slammed Western teams for not conforming to his ideas about respect and honour but not made any attempt to conform to Western ideas of respect and honour. If I ran a team and wanted a player, the first thing I would do would be to gauge interest before I even thought of speaking to his/her team, if they have no interest then what would be the point in speaking to their team?
I'm never going to be convinced that anyone should conform to another person's standards, I have my own ethics and sense of honour, it no doubt differs from everyone else's. The only thing you can do is hold yourself to your own standards and do things legally, if Puma had been under contract then EG would have had no other option but to speak directly to his team, but he wasn't and he decided that speaking to his team himself was the best option. Those conditions satisfied EG's code of ethics
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Where can I watch this TSL training video -_-
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Clide and SangHo returned the salaries / stipends that they received to provide some additional financial support for the whole team.
So fucking baller. +1 respect.
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On July 23 2011 03:27 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 03:22 emythrel wrote:
I really don't the this argument that Western teams should do things the Korean way.
The SC2 scene is far more global than BW ever was. The roles have been reversed, the Western teams have the money to pay players and Korean team in general don't atm. If anything the Koreans should be doing thing the western way since thats where the game is really taking off.
What happens if SC2 never blows up huge in Korea but they have set up their own way of doing things, all the money is in the west and western teams want korean players? Why should the guys with all the money and bargaining chips have to conform to the Koreans wishes?
More over, EG approached a player, the player was interested, the player spoke to his team. That seems like a fairly normal and above board way of doing things, they didn't sign him to a contract before he spoke to his coach, they didn't force him to do anything, they simply made an offer. Coach Lee released the information to the public without ever giving EG a chance to talk to him directly. Yeah it's far more global. Yet you still need Korean players to participate, no? Korea still has the highest quantity of good players, no? You still want to do business with Koreans, no? If you want to do business with them, you better respect their values, no? Besides, it's not like this is some Korea BS that no one from outside respects and understands, sure. Maybe that's some non sense we should change. But seeing how the entire Korean community + half of the TL thinks EG's deal is shady, I doubt EG is clapping and cheering for a good decision they have made right now. Besides, can you stop saying how Coach Lee gave EG no chance to talk to him? EG had 10 days, but no, they decided to leave it up to a 19 years old boy who does nothing but play starcraft for his teenage years to talk to his Coach about how he's leaving the team as soon as he blew up. Good decision right there.
I agree with everything you've said, and furthermore, in the end, I think it really doesn't matter what we think of EG's actions. Our opinions are inconsequential. What matters is how EG's actions have been perceived by the Koreans, because they're ultimately the ones who - now, I don't want to say "hold all the power," but, to put it into somewhat crass terms, they have the products we want to buy. And, well, they're not happy. We don't know what the fall-out from this will be, but I don't think it's too far a stretch of the imagination to assume that EG is going to have a very tough time setting up a suitable infrastructure in Korea.
Just my two cents there. And, honestly, if there's one thing that can't be denied, it's the fact that EG has piss-poor PR. Spend less money on getting new players, spend more on hiring someone who can actually clean up the shit. Regardless of whether or not you agree with AG's point or the legality/morality/what-have-you of EG's actions, there is something seriously dumb about attacking Milkis on air and blaming him for your bad PR and then thinking your reputation won't be tarnished in the TL community.
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On July 23 2011 03:27 Mioraka wrote:
Besides, can you stop saying how Coach Lee gave EG no chance to talk to him? EG had 10 days, but no, they decided to leave it up to a 19 years old boy who does nothing but play starcraft for his teenage years to talk to his Coach about how he's leaving the team as soon as he blew up.
Good decision right there.
EG talked to him and everyone went into uproar mode about this code of ethics and hidden ninja code that the Koreans sign in blood the day they are birthed. Come on. He's a 19 year old boy, sure. Korea is comfortable with him deciding to play SC2 professionally in Korea while being given food and board, yet now that EG has any say in it, this 19 year old "boy" now has no idea what to do or how to do it? Everyones saying EG did this under TSLs nose and never gave TSL a chance to talk to Puma. Maybe if all these anti-AG pro-seclusion of Korea zealots stopped saying EG never gave TSL a chance, no one would even say that TSL never gave EG a chance. IN FACT I've been watching this VERY closely since it broke yesterday, and the sentiment that TSl never gave EG a chance to talk to Puma is one that I have scarecely seen expressed. As if he didn't have the time to mull it over. As if TSL didnt have the chance to match the contract that HE HASNT EVEN SIGNED therefore he's still a free agent legitimately. As if Puma didn't talk to anyone and EG broke into Korea, wrapped him up in rope, and snuck him into the cargo section of their super top secret air craft that they use to swindle Korean players.
Come on.
EDIT
Also, alienating yourselves from the rest of the globe when your own SC2 market is bleek and without major renovations will never even come CLOSE to what was produced for BW. Good decision right there.
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EPT
