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Puma leaves TSL for EG - Page 225

Forum Index > SC2 General
7189 CommentsPost a Reply
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MonsieurGrimm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada2441 Posts
July 21 2011 20:17 GMT
#4481
On July 22 2011 05:14 awha wrote:
I am sorry if this has been answered already, but has any official statement been released by EG?

most of the information coming out of EG recently has been about Necrons and Orks lol. To my knowledge, no official statement has been made yet
"60% of the time, it works - every time" - Brian Fantana on Double Reactors All The Way // "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt
BeefyKnight
Profile Joined November 2010
United States127 Posts
July 21 2011 20:17 GMT
#4482
If you were a player would you want teams to come to you with better offers? Or would you rather they went and asked your manager first so he could say "No, leave my top players alone." EG is looking out for the PLAYER here. You know, the person that MATTERS in this situation. Every one saying EG was un-ethical need to re-evaluate their ethics.
seoul_kiM
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States545 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-21 20:18:04
July 21 2011 20:17 GMT
#4483
On July 22 2011 05:14 chatuka wrote:
I don't think Puma will find practice partners in kOrea to play for in SC2. unless he changes his name. I agree, that EG will be affected by backlash by the Korean SC2 scene. Honestly, i don't even think this is that great of a move by EG. Until EG start raising their homegrown talent or recruit amazing foreign talents spanning the globe. One Korean person, who is a hot name, will not Change the fortunes of EG. they need to competely overhaul their roster. Or change the practice routine and Nutrition and diet of team members. Organic food and distilled water. Air filters of Hepa quality..
That will start improving the mind of these pro gamers.


SK could have picked up a up-and-coming counter-strike player in Sweden but instead they decided to take Delpan from fnatic without any permission and then went on to win Dreamhack then ICSC 8 and other teams still practice against SK all the time.
oGs.MC: Repair IMBAAAAAAAAAAa
nihlon
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden5581 Posts
July 21 2011 20:17 GMT
#4484
On July 22 2011 05:14 chatuka wrote:
I don't think Puma will find practice partners in kOrea to play for in SC2. unless he changes his name. I agree, that EG will be affected by backlash by the Korean SC2 scene. Honestly, i don't even think this is that great of a move by EG. Until EG start raising their homegrown talent or recruit amazing foreign talents spanning the globe. One Korean person, who is a hot name, will not Change the fortunes of EG. they need to competely overhaul their roster. Or change the practice routine and Nutrition and diet of team members. Organic food and distilled water. Air filters of Hepa quality..
That will start improving the mind of these pro gamers.


I very much doubt he won't have practise partners.
Banelings are too cute to blow up
ShampooSuicide
Profile Joined June 2010
United States58 Posts
July 21 2011 20:18 GMT
#4485
Puma i think will have practice partners still easily. He has friends and other people. MC at NASL interviews was saying how he was friends with Puma for like 8 years or something? They had meet in school years ago? I don't think everyone will suddenly stop being his friends because he didn't get along with his team very well. I don't think MC would stop practicing with his friend because he wanted a different deal that might be better for him personally. I am sure there are others beside MC that would stay friend with him as well and practice.
[Atomic]Peace
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States451 Posts
July 21 2011 20:18 GMT
#4486
On July 22 2011 05:15 JWD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 05:08 Shamrock_ wrote:
In the business world conduct like this is so thoroughly frowned upon that other companies may not even work with you. I can absolutely understand TSL's problem with it and I think EG should've seen this coming.

It is? I'm curious what exactly you mean.

I don't know that much about standard employment practices but I am pretty sure it's regular in the U.S. to set up a second job before you quit your first, and give your two weeks' notice/notify your employer of the other job only once you have that job set up. My understanding is that it's mostly NCCs that prevent companies from approaching other companies' employees with job offers, not business ethics.

I can think of a couple examples to support this understanding: college football coaches being hired away by NFL teams before announcing that they've left their colleges, low-level execs at companies being courted for CEO-ships at other companies...

What examples are you thinking of when you say that this conduct is "frowned upon"?

JWD is correct here. Businesses make offers to employees of other businesses all the time in the US. The most professional thing to do is to bring the offer to your current employer and see if they can match it, but employees are by no means obligated to do that.
☢
Antoine
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States7481 Posts
July 21 2011 20:19 GMT
#4487
On July 22 2011 05:12 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 05:10 dacthehork wrote:
On July 22 2011 05:08 Shamrock_ wrote:
In the business world conduct like this is so thoroughly frowned upon that other companies may not even work with you. I can absolutely understand TSL's problem with it and I think EG should've seen this coming.

Exactly this is a pretty big mark against EG. It's completely legal, but ethics wise it's pretty nutty to expect no backlash off poaching talent from other companies/teams.

Yet again, as far as we know Puma wanted off TSL for a while and approached EG at NASL, we simply do not have the full story yet (especially considering that Mr. Lee basically acused EG and Puma of out and out lying). Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.

xeris said in this very thread that an eg guy was approaching players an nasl.
On July 22 2011 05:14 dsousa wrote:
This is ridiculous.

Puma is a free man and if he messed up or sucked, TSL could have and would have dropped him. Since they can drop him at anytime, he is also free to leave at any time for greener pastures.

puma did almost nothing in terms of visible results for tsl for a long, long, long time, and yet was not dropped. why speculate that he would be dropped out of nowhere if his results returned to that?
ModeratorFlash Sea Action Snow Midas | TheStC Ret Tyler MC | RIP 우정호
ronpaul012
Profile Joined March 2011
United States769 Posts
July 21 2011 20:19 GMT
#4488
On July 22 2011 05:15 JWD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 05:08 Shamrock_ wrote:
In the business world conduct like this is so thoroughly frowned upon that other companies may not even work with you. I can absolutely understand TSL's problem with it and I think EG should've seen this coming.

It is? I'm curious what exactly you mean.

I don't know that much about standard employment practices but I am pretty sure it's regular in the U.S. to set up a second job before you quit your first, and give your two weeks' notice/notify your employer of the other job only once you have that job set up. My understanding is that it's mostly NCCs that prevent companies from approaching other companies' employees with job offers, not business ethics.

I can think of a couple examples to support this understanding: college football coaches being hired away by NFL teams before announcing that they've left their colleges, low-level execs at companies being courted for CEO-ships at other companies...

What examples are you thinking of when you say that this conduct is "frowned upon"?


A few things. First of all most of the time the employee is the one that searches out for a new job, very rarely does the other business offer the person a job without applying. The other thing I think that tsl is annoyed at was where it happened. They talked to him during nasl, not through an email. Its like showing up at a somebodies job, while they're working and saying hey, you should come work for us. Does it happen sometimes? Sure. Does that mean its professional? Well that comes down to your personal point of view.
I'm a gooner.
awha
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark1358 Posts
July 21 2011 20:20 GMT
#4489
On July 22 2011 05:17 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 05:14 awha wrote:
I am sorry if this has been answered already, but has any official statement been released by EG?

most of the information coming out of EG recently has been about Necrons and Orks lol. To my knowledge, no official statement has been made yet


Yeah, I have been reading the correct information then
Thanks for the input though!
Domination
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1177 Posts
July 21 2011 20:20 GMT
#4490
All I know is that I have a tough time believing that EG is just an innocent little flower targeted by drama llamas when something always seems to happen involving either their team or their players on a bi-weekly basis.
Eurekastreet
Profile Joined November 2010
1308 Posts
July 21 2011 20:20 GMT
#4491
On July 22 2011 05:02 seoul_kiM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 04:58 JoeSchmoe wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:47 farnham wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:45 Xeris wrote:
Differences:

- SK presumably negotiated this deal directly with oGs since there wasn't really any outcry (one can only assume oGs would have made a big deal if SK went behind their backs).

- Rain left TSL team weeks before he joined Fnatic. He expressly said in the article about him leaving TSL that he wanted to join a foreign team and play foreign events, so it wasn't a big surprise.

- fOu and FXO had been working together and built a nice relationship, so the FXO acquisition of fOu isn't really a big shocker

In this case however, PuMa was obviously still a member of TSL. EG had full knowledge that he was on the team, and decided to negotiate a deal with him anyways.

yeah but this does not mean anything legally and TSL is responsible for this fact. if they had a employment contract or something it would be binding. TSl chose not to do that and they are facing the consequences


Why do people arguing about the legality of this action when it is completely an ethical issue? Huge dick move by EG and now half the koreans feel disrespected by foreigners. "Oh but who cares about what the koreans think?" The coach is not exactly going to spread tales of greatness about EG. This event has a completely negative impact on the foreigner scene because of one team. Horrible team for Puma to join regardless especially when Incontrol spent his SoTG days lobbying how koreans were elitists with too much pride. Now they recruit a player who is actually skilled. Irony much.


Your argument is full of holes.
- Incontrol isn't EG management and he doesn't decide who joins the organization.
- Ethics and business don't exactly go hand-in-hand. It's 2011 and we're in the middle of a recession. Ethics went out the door before the Robber Barons.



-Wrong, he made them recruit Puma so they can get a skincare and body lotion as their next big sponsor and both Puma and Anna and that blonde chick can cover themselves in oil on the main stage during the NASL season 2 finals match breaks while he bench presses 700 tons of steel because after the epic Eminem cover, that's obviously what us nerds want to see. This is gonna change everything.
-Did you just try and advocate some kind of "but Mooooom he did it first " way of life ?
"2 cannons, it's not one cannons" - White-Ra
-Frog-
Profile Joined February 2009
United States514 Posts
July 21 2011 20:21 GMT
#4492
On July 22 2011 05:18 [Atomic]Peace wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 05:15 JWD wrote:
On July 22 2011 05:08 Shamrock_ wrote:
In the business world conduct like this is so thoroughly frowned upon that other companies may not even work with you. I can absolutely understand TSL's problem with it and I think EG should've seen this coming.

It is? I'm curious what exactly you mean.

I don't know that much about standard employment practices but I am pretty sure it's regular in the U.S. to set up a second job before you quit your first, and give your two weeks' notice/notify your employer of the other job only once you have that job set up. My understanding is that it's mostly NCCs that prevent companies from approaching other companies' employees with job offers, not business ethics.

I can think of a couple examples to support this understanding: college football coaches being hired away by NFL teams before announcing that they've left their colleges, low-level execs at companies being courted for CEO-ships at other companies...

What examples are you thinking of when you say that this conduct is "frowned upon"?

JWD is correct here. Businesses make offers to employees of other businesses all the time in the US. The most professional thing to do is to bring the offer to your current employer and see if they can match it, but employees are by no means obligated to do that.


It seems to me that's exactly what happened. But some more details are definitely needed (like if Puma had already signed a contract when he informed Lee of his decision to leave TSL).
powered by coffee, driven by hate.
PHC
Profile Joined March 2011
United States472 Posts
July 21 2011 20:22 GMT
#4493
On another note, some esports fans are showing their true colors:

Aikepah Austin Welch
@OrangeMilkis I would call him unemployed because he wasn't getting paid from TSL
26 minutes ago

Aikepah Austin Welch
@OrangeMilkis It wouldn't be an issue if Koreans grew up and stopped crying just because TSL lost all of their players to teams that pay.
5 minutes ago

Wooju Lee
@Aikepah Can you stop tweeting me culturally insensitive nonsense? Thanks.
4 minutes ago via web

Aikepah Austin Welch
@OrangeMilkis If koreans want to be stupid little fucktards that need to grow up, then no, I wont stop, especially since you are one of them
2 minutes ago

Yuck, can we stop with posts like these...? Holy shit. Disgusting to think he's a part of our community.
[Atomic]Peace
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States451 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-21 20:24:35
July 21 2011 20:22 GMT
#4494
On July 22 2011 05:19 ronpaul012 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 05:15 JWD wrote:
On July 22 2011 05:08 Shamrock_ wrote:
In the business world conduct like this is so thoroughly frowned upon that other companies may not even work with you. I can absolutely understand TSL's problem with it and I think EG should've seen this coming.

It is? I'm curious what exactly you mean.

I don't know that much about standard employment practices but I am pretty sure it's regular in the U.S. to set up a second job before you quit your first, and give your two weeks' notice/notify your employer of the other job only once you have that job set up. My understanding is that it's mostly NCCs that prevent companies from approaching other companies' employees with job offers, not business ethics.

I can think of a couple examples to support this understanding: college football coaches being hired away by NFL teams before announcing that they've left their colleges, low-level execs at companies being courted for CEO-ships at other companies...

What examples are you thinking of when you say that this conduct is "frowned upon"?


A few things. First of all most of the time the employee is the one that searches out for a new job, very rarely does the other business offer the person a job without applying. The other thing I think that tsl is annoyed at was where it happened. They talked to him during nasl, not through an email. Its like showing up at a somebodies job, while they're working and saying hey, you should come work for us. Does it happen sometimes? Sure. Does that mean its professional? Well that comes down to your personal point of view.

This is a massive overgeneralization and wrong in the case of top Starcraft talent (a sellers market). People with Puma's level of skill are hard to find and thus buyers seek them out. Do you think Idra would have to lift a finger in order to find a new job if he moved from EG? I agree with your point about doing it at the tournament, that is a little unprofessional. But you have to weigh that against the fact that EG wouldn't have been able to talk to Puma face to face after he went back to Korea.
☢
Bigpet
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany533 Posts
July 21 2011 20:22 GMT
#4495
On July 22 2011 05:17 BeefyKnight wrote:
If you were a player would you want teams to come to you with better offers? Or would you rather they went and asked your manager first so he could say "No, leave my top players alone." EG is looking out for the PLAYER here. You know, the person that MATTERS in this situation. Every one saying EG was un-ethical need to re-evaluate their ethics.


Yeah, fuck the coach. Nobody cares about some random looser who probably puts his life-blood into making puma the player that he is today.
I'm NOT the caster with a similar nick
seoul_kiM
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States545 Posts
July 21 2011 20:22 GMT
#4496
On July 22 2011 05:20 Eurekastreet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 05:02 seoul_kiM wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:58 JoeSchmoe wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:47 farnham wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:45 Xeris wrote:
Differences:

- SK presumably negotiated this deal directly with oGs since there wasn't really any outcry (one can only assume oGs would have made a big deal if SK went behind their backs).

- Rain left TSL team weeks before he joined Fnatic. He expressly said in the article about him leaving TSL that he wanted to join a foreign team and play foreign events, so it wasn't a big surprise.

- fOu and FXO had been working together and built a nice relationship, so the FXO acquisition of fOu isn't really a big shocker

In this case however, PuMa was obviously still a member of TSL. EG had full knowledge that he was on the team, and decided to negotiate a deal with him anyways.

yeah but this does not mean anything legally and TSL is responsible for this fact. if they had a employment contract or something it would be binding. TSl chose not to do that and they are facing the consequences


Why do people arguing about the legality of this action when it is completely an ethical issue? Huge dick move by EG and now half the koreans feel disrespected by foreigners. "Oh but who cares about what the koreans think?" The coach is not exactly going to spread tales of greatness about EG. This event has a completely negative impact on the foreigner scene because of one team. Horrible team for Puma to join regardless especially when Incontrol spent his SoTG days lobbying how koreans were elitists with too much pride. Now they recruit a player who is actually skilled. Irony much.


Your argument is full of holes.
- Incontrol isn't EG management and he doesn't decide who joins the organization.
- Ethics and business don't exactly go hand-in-hand. It's 2011 and we're in the middle of a recession. Ethics went out the door before the Robber Barons.



-Wrong, he made them recruit Puma so they can get a skincare and body lotion as their next big sponsor and both Puma and Anna and that blonde chick can cover themselves in oil on the main stage during the NASL season 2 finals match breaks while he bench presses 700 tons of steel because after the epic Eminem cover, that's obviously what us nerds want to see. This is gonna change everything.
-Did you just try and advocate some kind of "but Mooooom he did it first " way of life ?


No. I'm saying that business culture has moved waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of line from ethics and values and people shouldn't expect that from businesses whether they are Korean or American. Just look at Samsung and Hyundai.
oGs.MC: Repair IMBAAAAAAAAAAa
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
July 21 2011 20:23 GMT
#4497
Guys, I know not a lot of you follow market news but this is happening, like, right now.

All the marketing executives of Research in Motion are getting sniped by Samsung (a KOREAN company).
As RIM engages in layoffs, weathers investor criticism, and struggles to reassert itself in the mobile industry, the company may be facing something of a brain drain: a senior product manager for RIM’s PlayBook tablet, Ryan Bidan, has jumped ship to Samsung Mobile to service as director of product marketing—at least according to his LInkedIn profile.

The move comes barely a month after RIM’s chief marketing office Brain Wallace left the company for Samsung; that defection, in term, followed only a few months after the departure of Keith Pardy, who had headed up RIM’s BlackBerry marketing efforts. At the time, RIM did not announce a replacement, instead indicating co-CEO Jim Balsillie would be taking on more promotional duties.

The move comes after the lackluster launch of the BlackBerry PlayBook, which has so far failed to meet sales expectations and has generally been greeted with half-hearted reviews that the device simply was not ready for market.

Industry watchers speculate RIM may be in for more high-level defections as the company continues to engage in layoffs. Dissatisfaction within the company seem high; RIM recently had to take the unusual step of publicly responding to an open letter, apparently from a high-level RIM exec, outlining eight steps he or she believed would be critical to turning the company around. The author of the letter claimed to be articulating concerns from a “huge percentage” of RIM’s employee base.

When your company is imploding, other companies will come and make offers to your talent. It's just business.
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
chatuka
Profile Joined July 2011
1351 Posts
July 21 2011 20:23 GMT
#4498
On July 22 2011 05:20 Domination wrote:
All I know is that I have a tough time believing that EG is just an innocent little flower targeted by drama llamas when something always seems to happen involving either their team or their players on a bi-weekly basis.


You should see the relationship of Corporations and how corrupt they are. this little talent grab is nothing. It's a measly mosquito. While GM or Apple is like a big dinosaur ready to feed or hunt on an empty stomach. you have a lot to learn about business.
vrok
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden2541 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-21 20:25:10
July 21 2011 20:24 GMT
#4499
On July 22 2011 05:22 PHC wrote:
On another note, some esports fans are showing their true colors:

Aikepah Austin Welch
@OrangeMilkis I would call him unemployed because he wasn't getting paid from TSL
26 minutes ago

Aikepah Austin Welch
@OrangeMilkis It wouldn't be an issue if Koreans grew up and stopped crying just because TSL lost all of their players to teams that pay.
5 minutes ago

Wooju Lee
@Aikepah Can you stop tweeting me culturally insensitive nonsense? Thanks.
4 minutes ago via web

Aikepah Austin Welch
@OrangeMilkis If koreans want to be stupid little fucktards that need to grow up, then no, I wont stop, especially since you are one of them
2 minutes ago

Yuck, can we stop with posts like these...? Holy shit. Disgusting to think he's a part of our community.

Can we stop using lameass Twitter and stick to TL where people just get banned for saying stupid shit? That would be even better.
"Starcraft 2 very easy game" - White-Ra
BoxersGosuGarden
Profile Joined April 2011
Philippines155 Posts
July 21 2011 20:24 GMT
#4500
On July 22 2011 05:19 Antoine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 05:12 farvacola wrote:
On July 22 2011 05:10 dacthehork wrote:
On July 22 2011 05:08 Shamrock_ wrote:
In the business world conduct like this is so thoroughly frowned upon that other companies may not even work with you. I can absolutely understand TSL's problem with it and I think EG should've seen this coming.

Exactly this is a pretty big mark against EG. It's completely legal, but ethics wise it's pretty nutty to expect no backlash off poaching talent from other companies/teams.

Yet again, as far as we know Puma wanted off TSL for a while and approached EG at NASL, we simply do not have the full story yet (especially considering that Mr. Lee basically acused EG and Puma of out and out lying). Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.

xeris said in this very thread that an eg guy was approaching players an nasl.
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 05:14 dsousa wrote:
This is ridiculous.

Puma is a free man and if he messed up or sucked, TSL could have and would have dropped him. Since they can drop him at anytime, he is also free to leave at any time for greener pastures.

puma did almost nothing in terms of visible results for tsl for a long, long, long time, and yet was not dropped. why speculate that he would be dropped out of nowhere if his results returned to that?

that's true. also why did EG pick up PuMa right after winning NASL and not before that? and I would bet that EG won't treat PuMa the same when he starts slumping since they are recruiting just recent winners. ninja recruiting players right after winning a major tournament seems underhanded to me.
zerg sad
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