On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote: The people defending EG don't get it. Sure there was no contract, but it's not the way things are done in Korean culture. The Coach fully said that if EG contacted him first, he would have gladly negotiated something to let Puma join EG because he wants what is best for Puma, but EG went behind their backs so he feels there is a lack of respect, and doesn't believe e-sports should be like this. A player signing should be more professional, instead of relying on a legal loophole to sign players without any repercussion.
If he really wanted what is best for puma, he would not be upset about this at all. Puma got a great deal out of this, as did EG, the only party that suffered was TSL. Also, just because it is korean culture does not make it superior. Its kind of ironic how people talk about the trust and faith that korea is supposedly built on, yet you are not free to state an anonymous opinion on the internet.
On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote: The people defending EG don't get it. Sure there was no contract, but it's not the way things are done in Korean culture. The Coach fully said that if EG contacted him first, he would have gladly negotiated something to let Puma join EG because he wants what is best for Puma, but EG went behind their backs so he feels there is a lack of respect, and doesn't believe e-sports should be like this. A player signing should be more professional, instead of relying on a legal loophole to sign players without any repercussion.
TSL would have asked for a transaction fee. to make up for the time and money training Puma. Since there was NO contract, EG made a move to get Puma, which Puma will get paid probably middle class salary in Korean standards. Which means Puma must have been poor.
really, it's not a big deal. TSL will be fine. there are plenty of Korean recruits out there that can help the TSL GSTL competitions.
On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote: The people defending EG don't get it. Sure there was no contract, but it's not the way things are done in Korean culture. The Coach fully said that if EG contacted him first, he would have gladly negotiated something to let Puma join EG because he wants what is best for Puma, but EG went behind their backs so he feels there is a lack of respect, and doesn't believe e-sports should be like this. A player signing should be more professional, instead of relying on a legal loophole to sign players without any repercussion.
Again, an insistence that this is somehow an affront to the culture of Korea as a whole points to a tenuous grasp of cultural ethics in general. KESPA, the genesis of the Sc1 scene, and the business climate of Korea in general all suggest that you good sir are the one who doesn't get it.
Coach Lee is a good person. I for one think he is making a big deal about it because he cares about players, their teams and esports.
If all this was true about EG making a private deal with Puma without consulting TSL, then that is a pretty douche thing to do. TSL housed, fed and cared for Puma for 10 months and Puma just ditched them.
Anyway, I'd definitely like to see EG's side of the story. There's always usually an explanation for these kinds of things.
On July 22 2011 05:02 chatuka wrote: Puma thought short term. Everybody knows that. It's probably the right move. I mean he didn't even have enough money for skin care. He must have been a poor boy.
On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote: The people defending EG don't get it. Sure there was no contract, but it's not the way things are done in Korean culture. The Coach fully said that if EG contacted him first, he would have gladly negotiated something to let Puma join EG because he wants what is best for Puma, but EG went behind their backs so he feels there is a lack of respect, and doesn't believe e-sports should be like this. A player signing should be more professional, instead of relying on a legal loophole to sign players without any repercussion.
Contracts aren't the way things are done in korea? You are joking right? Apparently the entire bw scene and kpop industry which are infamous for their tough contracts are not korean culture? So many people with no knowledge of business or korean business blowing smoke out of their ass.
On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote: The people defending EG don't get it. Sure there was no contract, but it's not the way things are done in Korean culture. The Coach fully said that if EG contacted him first, he would have gladly negotiated something to let Puma join EG because he wants what is best for Puma, but EG went behind their backs so he feels there is a lack of respect, and doesn't believe e-sports should be like this. A player signing should be more professional, instead of relying on a legal loophole to sign players without any repercussion.
Why do Western teams have to adjust to Korean culture? Why shouldn't TSL feel obligated to comply with the way Western esports is run? After all, they allowed PuMa to participate in a non-Korean tournament, too. Let's face it: Right now, Western esports clans are managed in a more professional way than the Korean ones. Contracts are an absolute must and the industry standard since half a decade.
I think the hidden story is that its moving away from korean scene being better than the foreign scene. Many have speculated stuff like this happening, but its interesting to see it finally happen. But now korean owners/managers against foreign owners/managers might get really intense. I hope they dont draw a line trying to keep all the players just to one side.
On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote: The people defending EG don't get it. Sure there was no contract, but it's not the way things are done in Korean culture.
Wrong, please back this up if you actually believe the Korean culture doesn't use contracts.
On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote: The Coach fully said that if EG contacted him first, he would have gladly negotiated something to let Puma join EG because he wants what is best for Puma
...Right, he would have helped EG snag one of his top players because they asked nicely. Sure.
On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote: A player signing should be more professional, instead of relying on a legal loophole to sign players without any repercussion.
I agree player signing should be more professional, TSL should have actually signed Puma on if they cared about keeping him. Also what "legal loophole" do you feel was used here?
Puma had no contract, there was no legal anything involved here.
On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote: The people defending EG don't get it. Sure there was no contract, but it's not the way things are done in Korean culture. The Coach fully said that if EG contacted him first, he would have gladly negotiated something to let Puma join EG because he wants what is best for Puma, but EG went behind their backs so he feels there is a lack of respect, and doesn't believe e-sports should be like this. A player signing should be more professional, instead of relying on a legal loophole to sign players without any repercussion.
The people attacking EG don't get it. Puma is able to make his own decision, and that is how it should be. If Puma wanted to leave TSL for the same reasons others have he now has a safe way to do it. If he wanted something comparable he would have brought it up to management himself. EG probably just threw the offer out there and left Puma with the decision. No one has the full story yet. EG may have even asked Puma to notify the coach for negotiations. There is a language barrier here, and translators were at the event. EG might not have the budget/(whatever else) to have a reliable translator to talk to every player they want to scope out.
On July 22 2011 05:04 K3Nyy wrote: Coach Lee is a good person. I for one think he is making a big deal about it because he cares about players, their teams and esports.
If all this was true about EG making a private deal with Puma without consulting TSL, then that is a pretty douche thing to do. TSL housed, fed and cared for Puma for 10 months and Puma just ditched them.
Anyway, I'd definitely like to see EG's side of the story. There's always usually an explanation for these kinds of things.
Puma (despite what his name might state) is not some stray cat that was alone on the streets before TSL. He was always someone who was seen to have a great deal of potential. Do not act like he owes everything to TSL. You also seem to forget that he is trying to make a living off of SC2. I don't know about you, but I would rather go with the team that is actually paying me, then the team that simply houses me (not to mention EG is doing both).
On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote: The people defending EG don't get it. Sure there was no contract, but it's not the way things are done in Korean culture. The Coach fully said that if EG contacted him first, he would have gladly negotiated something to let Puma join EG because he wants what is best for Puma, but EG went behind their backs so he feels there is a lack of respect, and doesn't believe e-sports should be like this. A player signing should be more professional, instead of relying on a legal loophole to sign players without any repercussion.
If he really wanted what is best for puma, he would not be upset about this at all. Puma got a great deal out of this, as did EG, the only party that suffered was TSL. Also, just because it is korean culture does not make it superior. Its kind of ironic how people talk about the trust and faith that korea is supposedly built on, yet you are not free to state an anonymous opinion on the internet.
as many people already stated
this is bull. korean companies conclude contracts just as in any other nation
On July 22 2011 05:00 RubiksCube wrote: "run on trust and faith instead of contracts"
That guy makes it sound as if contracts would be bad.
"run on trust and faith instead of contracts" also means that a player does not have any security how long his stay in a teamhouse may last, so it would be better for both sides if contracts were made mandatory. Team gets security that the player doesn't leave for the first check-waving team, Player gets security on how long his "career" in the team is gonna go on regardless of results.
I totally agree. Contracts mean more security. He had no contract, so the team should have no power over him. We need power for G7 and a transfer market.
On July 21 2011 15:28 DelRax wrote: "... to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments."
Does this mean he'll remain in Korea, rather than heading to the EG house? I really hope so, for his sake. Players practice with their teams and friends, eg. Byun practicing with MKP, SC, etc. But if Puma's in America, he can't, lag doesn't allow for a stable training environment. The only decent team mate he could practice with would be Idra, and even then, lower than what was on offer in Korea.
Considering EG is known for having flexible contracts there's not a doubt in my mind PuMa will stay in Korea....
If that is the case then he made a really poor decision, he gave up practice partners and a team house for more money, im sure TSL would have been willing to pay him more so that he wouldnt leave, maybe they couldnt match EG's salary but they could still offer him more i assume.
On July 22 2011 05:00 RubiksCube wrote: "run on trust and faith instead of contracts"
That guy makes it sound as if contracts would be bad.
"run on trust and faith instead of contracts" also means that a player does not have any security how long his stay in a teamhouse may last, so it would be better for both sides if contracts were made mandatory. Team gets security that the player doesn't leave for the first check-waving team, Player gets security on how long his "career" in the team is gonna go on regardless of results.
It is bad, at least in korea SC2. Korean teams don't let go of their players just because they perform poorly. Once they join the team, they become a part of the family. I remember TheWind specifying that recruitment was crucial because they need to find players who are committed and once it's done, he's there to stay regardless. Unless you set your team house on fire, no one's going to give you the leg. When's the last time you heard a player got kicked out because he was performing poorly? Now with contracts, players will no longer have the freedom to do what they want. Rain couldn't leave TSL to explore the foreign scene. It's a lot of unnecessary overhead and new constraints because of the actions of one team.
On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote: The people defending EG don't get it. Sure there was no contract, but it's not the way things are done in Korean culture. The Coach fully said that if EG contacted him first, he would have gladly negotiated something to let Puma join EG because he wants what is best for Puma, but EG went behind their backs so he feels there is a lack of respect, and doesn't believe e-sports should be like this. A player signing should be more professional, instead of relying on a legal loophole to sign players without any repercussion.
Why do Western teams have to adjust to Korean culture? Why shouldn't TSL feel obligated to comply with the way Western esports is run? After all, they allowed PuMa to participate in a non-Korean tournament, too. Let's face it: Right now, Western esports clans are managed in a more professional way than the Korean ones. Contracts are an absolute must and the industry standard since half a decade.
stop talking. Korean scene is majorly more professional, and contracts will become mandatory after this event. Korean scene has training facilities / team houses / and actually produces good players instead of buying them.
The biggest surprise will be expecting PuMa to do well at all after being probably blacklisted from any korean practice partners. The environment that produced him is no longer there, he won't be allowed in basically any training house in Korea. It will be interesting to see how he will train / get better from here.
Also, since the players in Korea are not under contract, won't the players expect what EG pulled to happen to DRG, MVP, etc. when they come to Anaheim next week? Is it safe to say that the majority if not all of Korea lost a ton of trust in foreign teams?
In the business world conduct like this is so thoroughly frowned upon that other companies may not even work with you. I can absolutely understand TSL's problem with it and I think EG should've seen this coming.
On July 22 2011 05:04 dacthehork wrote: It was completely legal, but on a PR / not scummy test it fails. Going to NASL event and trying to poach players is pretty messed up. Although I'm sure a lot of teams are looking to poach EG players.. oh wait.
Especially trying to negotiate with contracted players like Sen etc.
What is this talk about poaching? How teams are supposed to hire players if they can't talk to then? Sure about players who actually have a contract you must discuss their release with the team, but isn't logical to ask the player first if he wants to join ?
Of course it is expected that teams don't disturb players still playing the tournament.
Don't worry guys, the korean teams will just take revenge by sending more koreans to foreign tournies and taking all the foreign money. Time for IM to unleash Nestea!...or I can dream about that!
EPT
