|
On July 22 2011 04:43 [Atomic]Peace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:31 Soap wrote:On July 22 2011 04:26 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On July 22 2011 04:23 JWD wrote:On July 22 2011 04:22 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On July 22 2011 04:19 LegendaryZ wrote:
I'm concerned about the effects this event is going to have. Some people seem to believe that this kind of thing is somehow positive for eSports and will help it grow because players will have more power to guarantee themselves better conditions. I disagree with this and believe that it may very well negatively affect the eSports scene.
Up until this point, the Starcraft 2 scene has largely been run on trust and cooperation. This is what has allowed for the relative lack of regulation within teams and across leagues. EG in this instance has essentially abused that trust and taken advantage of it by poaching a player at a foreign event. You can certainly fault TSL for lacking foresight and not mandating a contract, but this type of naivete is pretty much what many people praised about the SC2 scene. We like to bash KeSPA for its heavy regulations and control over players, but that's exactly what people faulting TSL are arguing should be the norm while at the same time not wanting such a regulatory body to come into fruition.
I'm afraid that a KeSPA-like organization or at least that type of atmosphere is going to be created in response to this, effectively forcing players into contracts and heavily regulating their freedoms in an effort for teams to ensure the protection of their investments. While what EG has done here isn't necessarily wrong, it can't be denied that they've effectively "changed the game" as far as the way teams and players interact goes and the statement that Manager Lee made about measures being put into place in order to prevent this from happening in the future is an immediate indicator of that. The sweet and innocent SC2 scene that we've known so far has all of a sudden become serious business with all of the atmosphere of distrust that comes with it.
It may make the scene more legitimate and closer to the real sports leagues that we see today, but I wonder if that's what we really want for SC2. After all, KeSPA was undeniably an effective organization whose methods, while somewhat ruthless, are tried and true in the business sense (EG would have never been able to pull this on one of their teams or players). Honestly though, when you consider this, don't we want teams to be a little bit more naive and trusting if only for the sake of the players? KeSPA2 will only happen in the players themselves accept it. And I think they wont, given the treatment of players under KeSPA. What's your basis for this statement (I'm legitimately curious; not a knock)? I haven't ever heard that KeSPA was created or ever promulgated rules with the consent of the players. My understanding is that KeSPA is an organization founded and controlled by the Korean government and the team sponsors, not the players. There are two major differences between BW and SC2: (1) the players know how bad KeSPA worked out for them and they might resist it this time and (2) the players have two secondary markets with at least as much money (US and Europe). BW players got kind of screwed because you had to stay in Korea and put up with KeSPA in order to have a career. But in SC2 you can have a career in US and Europe. KeSPA worked wonderfully to the players, in comparison to the current SC2 scene. The top BW salary is 10x more than of TSL, and that's from a 13 years old game. B-teamers don't make money on either game anyway. The fact that top BW salaries are what they are is due to BWs popularity, not due to KeSPA. In fact, KeSPA is probably holding the salaries down. If top players were allowed to have agents I'm guessing they could negotiate for higher salaries.
They are allowed to negotiate. They can't threaten with switching teams because of the ridiculous penalties, but an unsatisfied player does no good for the team.
|
Go EG! Nice pick up. Without a contract it was perfectly within the bounds to do what they did. Courtesy means nothing in the NFL and the likes talks between teams doesn't even take place a large portion of the time without the player already having discussed with both sides. THIS IS KILLING E-SPORTS IJIJNH:!!!JRO:IJ@ RJI!!!
...not go EG on expanding your roster with more big name big game players and expect this to be the first of many as other Koreans find out its easy to do this. They will see those dollar signs and come from far and wide lol. And on another note I don't believe this is a bad move on Puma's part for training with the calibar of players all over the world and EG's new training house I see this as a way for him to expand his horizons. Korea is not the mecha its made out to be anymore not with players like Morrow, Thorzain, and Naniwa out there proving there worth game in and game out. Puma I believe is gonna grow more from this than being cramping the TSL house.
|
Lol I don't see why this is such a shitstorm.
Good for Puma. He deserves more money and now he's getting it.
Good for EG. They are getting a sick player, and a terran player when they only had 1 terran before.
People are saying "now you will need to sign a contract to be a pro" like it's the end of the world. I can't believe players in Korea were playing largely without contracts for this long. Obviously you need a contract it's standard in every industry.
I think there's nothing wrong with contacting the player directly. In fact, that's how I think it should be done. That's who they are making a deal with, and it's the player's choice so why would you go through the team? Who cares what established sports do? They aren't exactly famous for looking out for player interests.
|
Honestly, I don't think its that big of a deal.
+ Show Spoiler +Holy shit, PuMa is on EG!
|
On July 22 2011 04:47 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:45 Xeris wrote:
Differences:
- SK presumably negotiated this deal directly with oGs since there wasn't really any outcry (one can only assume oGs would have made a big deal if SK went behind their backs).
- Rain left TSL team weeks before he joined Fnatic. He expressly said in the article about him leaving TSL that he wanted to join a foreign team and play foreign events, so it wasn't a big surprise.
- fOu and FXO had been working together and built a nice relationship, so the FXO acquisition of fOu isn't really a big shocker
In this case however, PuMa was obviously still a member of TSL. EG had full knowledge that he was on the team, and decided to negotiate a deal with him anyways. yeah but this does not mean anything legally and TSL is responsible for this fact. if they had a employment contract or something it would be binding. TSl chose not to do that and they are facing the consequences
Why do people arguing about the legality of this action when it is completely an ethical issue? Huge dick move by EG and now half the koreans feel disrespected by foreigners. "Oh but who cares about what the koreans think?" The coach is not exactly going to spread tales of greatness about EG. This event has a completely negative impact on the foreigner scene because of one team. Horrible team for Puma to join regardless especially when Incontrol spent his SoTG days lobbying how koreans were elitists with too much pride. Now they recruit a player who is actually skilled. Irony much.
|
On July 22 2011 04:57 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:43 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On July 22 2011 04:31 Soap wrote:On July 22 2011 04:26 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On July 22 2011 04:23 JWD wrote:On July 22 2011 04:22 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On July 22 2011 04:19 LegendaryZ wrote:
I'm concerned about the effects this event is going to have. Some people seem to believe that this kind of thing is somehow positive for eSports and will help it grow because players will have more power to guarantee themselves better conditions. I disagree with this and believe that it may very well negatively affect the eSports scene.
Up until this point, the Starcraft 2 scene has largely been run on trust and cooperation. This is what has allowed for the relative lack of regulation within teams and across leagues. EG in this instance has essentially abused that trust and taken advantage of it by poaching a player at a foreign event. You can certainly fault TSL for lacking foresight and not mandating a contract, but this type of naivete is pretty much what many people praised about the SC2 scene. We like to bash KeSPA for its heavy regulations and control over players, but that's exactly what people faulting TSL are arguing should be the norm while at the same time not wanting such a regulatory body to come into fruition.
I'm afraid that a KeSPA-like organization or at least that type of atmosphere is going to be created in response to this, effectively forcing players into contracts and heavily regulating their freedoms in an effort for teams to ensure the protection of their investments. While what EG has done here isn't necessarily wrong, it can't be denied that they've effectively "changed the game" as far as the way teams and players interact goes and the statement that Manager Lee made about measures being put into place in order to prevent this from happening in the future is an immediate indicator of that. The sweet and innocent SC2 scene that we've known so far has all of a sudden become serious business with all of the atmosphere of distrust that comes with it.
It may make the scene more legitimate and closer to the real sports leagues that we see today, but I wonder if that's what we really want for SC2. After all, KeSPA was undeniably an effective organization whose methods, while somewhat ruthless, are tried and true in the business sense (EG would have never been able to pull this on one of their teams or players). Honestly though, when you consider this, don't we want teams to be a little bit more naive and trusting if only for the sake of the players? KeSPA2 will only happen in the players themselves accept it. And I think they wont, given the treatment of players under KeSPA. What's your basis for this statement (I'm legitimately curious; not a knock)? I haven't ever heard that KeSPA was created or ever promulgated rules with the consent of the players. My understanding is that KeSPA is an organization founded and controlled by the Korean government and the team sponsors, not the players. There are two major differences between BW and SC2: (1) the players know how bad KeSPA worked out for them and they might resist it this time and (2) the players have two secondary markets with at least as much money (US and Europe). BW players got kind of screwed because you had to stay in Korea and put up with KeSPA in order to have a career. But in SC2 you can have a career in US and Europe. KeSPA worked wonderfully to the players, in comparison to the current SC2 scene. The top BW salary is 10x more than of TSL, and that's from a 13 years old game. B-teamers don't make money on either game anyway. The fact that top BW salaries are what they are is due to BWs popularity, not due to KeSPA. In fact, KeSPA is probably holding the salaries down. If top players were allowed to have agents I'm guessing they could negotiate for higher salaries. They are allowed to negotiate. They can't threaten with switching teams because of the ridiculous penalties, but an unsatisfied player does no good for the team.
If you can't switch teams it is not a negotiation, it is a farce. Imagine trying to negotiate for a salary if you weren't allowed to switch employers.
|
On July 22 2011 04:55 Tripc897 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:48 Sqq wrote:On July 22 2011 04:47 caelym wrote:On July 22 2011 04:36 legaton wrote:
Liquid - oGs: partnership. Everyone is happy about it.
SK Gaming - oGs: sponsorship for Nada and MC in foreign tournaments. Everyones happy about it
Fanatic - Rain: recruitment of a new player. Some critics against Rain for leaving GSL so abruptly. No critics to Fanatic.
FXO - Fou : buy-out after friendly negotiation. Everyone is happy about it.
EG - TSL/Puma: recruitment of a player behind his team's back, lies about Puma contacting them first. TSL/Korean community is pissed off.
People can claim "that's how capitalism work" all they want. Doesn't change the fact it is a shitty argument. Fanatic, Liquid, FXO, Sk Gaming are all pro structures working under free market conditions (aka capitalism). They had no problem negotiating their way through koreans team and players and founding acceptable agreements for all parties involved. What EG did just shows they have a short-sighted management and poor PR.
EG's PR has got to be one of the worst. I think a big part of it is their holier-than-thou/community-is-full-of-whiny-bitches/come-at-me-bro attitude. They really need to work on improving their community relations, but after each incident as like and ITG, it becomes a PR nightmare, and it seems like they don't learn from past mistakes. Mind I ask what the ITG incident was ? ITG incident is the Inside the game incident, where it resulted in Incontrol leaving state of the game, and EG's "Cover-up" and "lying" about the real reason Incontrol left
theres also the cs incident. Where col had a cs team for 5+ yrs(jason put the team together by picking up players from different small teams) col joined cgs(a televised league)...when cgs failed jason had to get back the sponsors he had 2 yrs ago(before cgs was around)...eg swooped in and offered the players a deal that they had to agree to by x date. Jason was in the middle of talking to sponsors and wanted the players to give him more time. Due to the deadline eg gave the col players they couldnt wait and a team jason built from nothing to the best na team was stolen from him....and a week or so later jason got a creative sponsorship.
|
On July 21 2011 15:06 Psi-Kick wrote:
If he joins EG... I'll be so disappointed. He'll never reach his full potential.
This, if he say moves to the states to go practice in the EG house he may help others develop their skill but he will be playing with significantly worse players and his skill will for sure drop.
Bye Puma im dissapointed in you for throwing away your chances at true stardom for a bit of money.
Im way more dissapointed at EG for how they handeled it though.
|
"run on trust and faith instead of contracts"
That guy makes it sound as if contracts would be bad.
"run on trust and faith instead of contracts" also means that a player does not have any security how long his stay in a teamhouse may last, so it would be better for both sides if contracts were made mandatory. Team gets security that the player doesn't leave for the first check-waving team, Player gets security on how long his "career" in the team is gonna go on regardless of results.
|
On July 22 2011 04:47 forgottendreams wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:44 Thorrissey wrote:
EG=The New York Yankees of Starcraft? That analogy might hold when the team has more then two good players, as much as I like demuslim he doesn't look the same anymore after the arm break and time off.
You're right....but I was more referring to the part where they let other teams raise, train, and support players then come swooping in with a pile of cash and big sponsors 
|
The people defending EG don't get it. Sure there was no contract, but it's not the way things are done in Korean culture. The Coach fully said that if EG contacted him first, he would have gladly negotiated something to let Puma join EG because he wants what is best for Puma, but EG went behind their backs so he feels there is a lack of respect, and doesn't believe e-sports should be like this. A player signing should be more professional, instead of relying on a legal loophole to sign players without any repercussion.
|
On July 22 2011 04:42 chatuka wrote:
I think we live in a bubble. The real world is a world of harsh cruelties and treason. This episode is like
comparing a family member who went to another country for a better life (Puma). And you guys are like comparing this situation as though EG kidnapped him and left a ransom note for TSL. Really, EG aren't geniuses, they just did what was in their best interest. They need to make a lot more moves, hopefully backed by Rich Corporations. I hope Samsung and Hyundai start Sponsoring SC2 teams as well for Korea. Sony for Japanese SC2 players.
You can't get money out of the equation for sure, but that doesn't mean that the side putting the biggest amount of cash on the table is the side that's doing things the right way. It might be ok in some cases - even in this one it could, it's hard to judge based on the lack of info - but even so, in your example, you leave the TSL coach out of the equation...even though he doesn't have the exposure of Puma, it doesn't mean he was ill intentioned by the absence of contract (?) and/or wasn't hurt by the move. Some other players in TSL might not have contracts either due to the korean e-sports business habits or for some other reason(s) but still might be happy about their situation, and now the whole team might suffer from Puma's unexpected move whereas if the coaches had been warned earlier, they might have had time to find a substitute for him or modify his contract so that he felt like staying. If tomorrow a team puts a lot of money on the table for Idra, Puma and DeMuslim to leave EG and buys them without going through their management, you wouldn't hear about EG SC2 for a while, it might even disappear and I'm sure some people might get pissed about it - rightfully. I guess US players got contracts to avoid that but one country business habit is not the next one, once again, does it mean that the guy with the biggest cash offer is the one that's right ?
It'd be nice to have both sides of the story to make an opinion about what's happened but it seems someone made a mistake here.
|
Puma thought short term. Everybody knows that. It's probably the right move. I mean he didn't even have enough money for skin care. He must have been a poor boy.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On July 22 2011 04:58 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:47 farnham wrote:On July 22 2011 04:45 Xeris wrote:
Differences:
- SK presumably negotiated this deal directly with oGs since there wasn't really any outcry (one can only assume oGs would have made a big deal if SK went behind their backs).
- Rain left TSL team weeks before he joined Fnatic. He expressly said in the article about him leaving TSL that he wanted to join a foreign team and play foreign events, so it wasn't a big surprise.
- fOu and FXO had been working together and built a nice relationship, so the FXO acquisition of fOu isn't really a big shocker
In this case however, PuMa was obviously still a member of TSL. EG had full knowledge that he was on the team, and decided to negotiate a deal with him anyways. yeah but this does not mean anything legally and TSL is responsible for this fact. if they had a employment contract or something it would be binding. TSl chose not to do that and they are facing the consequences Why do people arguing about the legality of this action when it is completely an ethical issue? Huge dick move by EG and now half the koreans feel disrespected by foreigners. "Oh but who cares about what the koreans think?" The coach is not exactly going to spread tales of greatness about EG. This event has a completely negative impact on the foreigner scene because of one team. Horrible team for Puma to join regardless especially when Incontrol spent his SoTG days lobbying how koreans were elitists with too much pride. Now they recruit a player who is actually skilled. Irony much.
Your argument is full of holes.
- Incontrol isn't EG management and he doesn't decide who joins the organization.
- Ethics and business don't exactly go hand-in-hand. It's 2011 and we're in the middle of a recession. Ethics went out the door before the Robber Barons.
|
On July 22 2011 04:58 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:47 farnham wrote:On July 22 2011 04:45 Xeris wrote:
Differences:
- SK presumably negotiated this deal directly with oGs since there wasn't really any outcry (one can only assume oGs would have made a big deal if SK went behind their backs).
- Rain left TSL team weeks before he joined Fnatic. He expressly said in the article about him leaving TSL that he wanted to join a foreign team and play foreign events, so it wasn't a big surprise.
- fOu and FXO had been working together and built a nice relationship, so the FXO acquisition of fOu isn't really a big shocker
In this case however, PuMa was obviously still a member of TSL. EG had full knowledge that he was on the team, and decided to negotiate a deal with him anyways. yeah but this does not mean anything legally and TSL is responsible for this fact. if they had a employment contract or something it would be binding. TSl chose not to do that and they are facing the consequences Why do people arguing about the legality of this action when it is completely an ethical issue? Huge dick move by EG and now half the koreans feel disrespected by foreigners. "Oh but who cares about what the koreans think?" The coach is not exactly going to spread tales of greatness about EG. This event has a completely negative impact on the foreigner scene because of one team. Horrible team for Puma to join regardless especially when Incontrol spent his SoTG days lobbying how koreans were elitists with too much pride. Now they recruit a player who is actually skilled. Irony much.
if anything this will improve the situations of the players as the teams will realize that they will need contracts to bind their players
|
On July 22 2011 05:02 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:58 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 22 2011 04:47 farnham wrote:On July 22 2011 04:45 Xeris wrote:
Differences:
- SK presumably negotiated this deal directly with oGs since there wasn't really any outcry (one can only assume oGs would have made a big deal if SK went behind their backs).
- Rain left TSL team weeks before he joined Fnatic. He expressly said in the article about him leaving TSL that he wanted to join a foreign team and play foreign events, so it wasn't a big surprise.
- fOu and FXO had been working together and built a nice relationship, so the FXO acquisition of fOu isn't really a big shocker
In this case however, PuMa was obviously still a member of TSL. EG had full knowledge that he was on the team, and decided to negotiate a deal with him anyways. yeah but this does not mean anything legally and TSL is responsible for this fact. if they had a employment contract or something it would be binding. TSl chose not to do that and they are facing the consequences Why do people arguing about the legality of this action when it is completely an ethical issue? Huge dick move by EG and now half the koreans feel disrespected by foreigners. "Oh but who cares about what the koreans think?" The coach is not exactly going to spread tales of greatness about EG. This event has a completely negative impact on the foreigner scene because of one team. Horrible team for Puma to join regardless especially when Incontrol spent his SoTG days lobbying how koreans were elitists with too much pride. Now they recruit a player who is actually skilled. Irony much. if anything this will improve the situations of the players as the teams will realize that they will need contracts to bind their players
or players will sign shitty contracts because they arent use to it and be fucked for x years?
|
On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote:
The people defending EG don't get it. Sure there was no contract, but it's not the way things are done in Korean culture. The Coach fully said that if EG contacted him first, he would have gladly negotiated something to let Puma join EG because he wants what is best for Puma, but EG went behind their backs so he feels there is a lack of respect, and doesn't believe e-sports should be like this. A player signing should be more professional, instead of relying on a legal loophole to sign players without any repercussion.
Legal loophole?
I think we have different definitions of loophole...
|
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee
Kind of annoying to see people call Puma "unemployed" as if he wasn't a part of TSL because there was no written contract. Come on...
9 minutes ago
@DerekStaley It's definitely a different paradigm, for sure. I don't think the SC2 scene in Korea can support real contracts though
5 minutes ago
@DerekStaley I think Korean SC2 teams avoided contracts cause they can't offer players much and they wanted to avoid BW style contracts
5 minutes ago
Also, this entire thing would have never been an issue if EG talked to TSL first... This entire thing would have been seen positively then.
1 minute ago
informal benefits where the managers take money out of their own pockets and go into debt to support their players, yup. @scaeon
57 seconds ago
BTW, Milkis, I hope you don't mind me copy-pasting your tweets to get the discussion going. You a unique insight on the Korean SC2 scene.
|
On July 22 2011 04:59 [Atomic]Peace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:57 Soap wrote:On July 22 2011 04:43 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On July 22 2011 04:31 Soap wrote:On July 22 2011 04:26 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On July 22 2011 04:23 JWD wrote:On July 22 2011 04:22 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On July 22 2011 04:19 LegendaryZ wrote:
I'm concerned about the effects this event is going to have. Some people seem to believe that this kind of thing is somehow positive for eSports and will help it grow because players will have more power to guarantee themselves better conditions. I disagree with this and believe that it may very well negatively affect the eSports scene.
Up until this point, the Starcraft 2 scene has largely been run on trust and cooperation. This is what has allowed for the relative lack of regulation within teams and across leagues. EG in this instance has essentially abused that trust and taken advantage of it by poaching a player at a foreign event. You can certainly fault TSL for lacking foresight and not mandating a contract, but this type of naivete is pretty much what many people praised about the SC2 scene. We like to bash KeSPA for its heavy regulations and control over players, but that's exactly what people faulting TSL are arguing should be the norm while at the same time not wanting such a regulatory body to come into fruition.
I'm afraid that a KeSPA-like organization or at least that type of atmosphere is going to be created in response to this, effectively forcing players into contracts and heavily regulating their freedoms in an effort for teams to ensure the protection of their investments. While what EG has done here isn't necessarily wrong, it can't be denied that they've effectively "changed the game" as far as the way teams and players interact goes and the statement that Manager Lee made about measures being put into place in order to prevent this from happening in the future is an immediate indicator of that. The sweet and innocent SC2 scene that we've known so far has all of a sudden become serious business with all of the atmosphere of distrust that comes with it.
It may make the scene more legitimate and closer to the real sports leagues that we see today, but I wonder if that's what we really want for SC2. After all, KeSPA was undeniably an effective organization whose methods, while somewhat ruthless, are tried and true in the business sense (EG would have never been able to pull this on one of their teams or players). Honestly though, when you consider this, don't we want teams to be a little bit more naive and trusting if only for the sake of the players? KeSPA2 will only happen in the players themselves accept it. And I think they wont, given the treatment of players under KeSPA. What's your basis for this statement (I'm legitimately curious; not a knock)? I haven't ever heard that KeSPA was created or ever promulgated rules with the consent of the players. My understanding is that KeSPA is an organization founded and controlled by the Korean government and the team sponsors, not the players. There are two major differences between BW and SC2: (1) the players know how bad KeSPA worked out for them and they might resist it this time and (2) the players have two secondary markets with at least as much money (US and Europe). BW players got kind of screwed because you had to stay in Korea and put up with KeSPA in order to have a career. But in SC2 you can have a career in US and Europe. KeSPA worked wonderfully to the players, in comparison to the current SC2 scene. The top BW salary is 10x more than of TSL, and that's from a 13 years old game. B-teamers don't make money on either game anyway. The fact that top BW salaries are what they are is due to BWs popularity, not due to KeSPA. In fact, KeSPA is probably holding the salaries down. If top players were allowed to have agents I'm guessing they could negotiate for higher salaries. They are allowed to negotiate. They can't threaten with switching teams because of the ridiculous penalties, but an unsatisfied player does no good for the team. If you can't switch teams it is not a negotiation, it is a farce. Imagine trying to negotiate for a salary if you weren't allowed to switch employers.
Of course it is, else why KT pays $300k an year or so to Flash?
|
It was completely legal, but on a PR / not scummy test it fails. Going to NASL event and trying to poach players is pretty messed up. Although I'm sure a lot of teams are looking to poach EG players.. oh wait.
Especially trying to negotiate with contracted players like Sen etc. There must be way better ways of going about it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
