Puma leaves TSL for EG - Page 221

DueSs

United States765 Posts

July 21 2011 19:52 GMT

#4401

lol, ive just wasted so much time on this thread. This is NOT as big of a deal as the repetitive full circle arguing this thread would have you believe.

IamPryda

United States1186 Posts

July 21 2011 19:52 GMT

#4402

Anyone who thinks this is a good thing for esports or even the foreign scence is wrong. up untill now sc2 has been working towards an environment where NA,Europe, and Korea all were working together but this move by EG will lead to some mistrust and fears of more player poaching. A comparable situation between the NHL and Russia super league exist for those of u who follow hockey and it has lead to several players under contract being stolen by each other. I think in the end Puma did a dishonorable thing but it is EG who is in the wrong because u cant really blame a young kid for taking a bunch of money and free housing to live in America.

Grimsong

United States252 Posts

July 21 2011 19:54 GMT

#4403

On July 22 2011 04:46 [Atomic]Peace wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's the teams not the players that need to tread lightly. Idra's ridiculous viewership (and consequently his income) due to his stream has nothing to do with EG and everything to do with Idra. Another example of a guy who makes tons of money off of his stream is Destiny and he doesn't even have a team. Teams have gotten away with screwing over players in the past, but only because the players are too timid to ask for what they are work. Example: no one on EG besides Gubby had a salary until Idra came along and has the balls to ask for a real one. Sure the teams still do have a lot of resources, but that it quickly changing. You couldn't make a salary off of streaming online a few years ago and now you can.

Yes and no. The players need to tread lightly as well because the more shake ups they cause in teams because of contract (or in this case, not having a contract) issues. The more teams feel the sting, the more inclined they will be to protecting themselves. People have to consider that we're talking about E-Sports here, not the NFL. Economical resources are limited, as it generates a very limited and specific niche.

I agree, players could easily start pushing their desires more, but on the flip side, teams can simply stop going with guys who don't comply and won't sign contracts. Hell, if teams like EG came together and said our guys are only going to play in this league we're all going to create, then they could regulate the market entirely with the players. Only allow their players to be streamed on streams they support. Only participate in events they sponsor. Things of that nature.

It's a very complex situation that you can dive into for layers and layers. Quite interesting, in fact.

Clbull

United Kingdom1439 Posts

July 21 2011 19:54 GMT

#4404

On July 21 2011 23:20 Sandro wrote:

Show nested quote +

Korean teams being wary of sending their players to participate in foreign events just might though.

I think that will just harm esports in Korea more than anything. Think about it this way:

Yes, 86% of the prize money in the NASL did go to South Korean players, but many Korean players signed up because big amounts of money were in those tournaments compared to say..... the GSL where you have to go through a set of fucking hard qualifiers and win Code A in order to get a chance at winning an amount of money that wasn't minuscule.
If Korean teams suddenly stopped sending their players to foreign tournaments then I think it would provoke a lot of the players to simply leave the team, like what Rain, Trickster and Fruitdealer did with TSL. Because to put it bluntly, there isn't much money (In terms of team salaries) or competition (in terms of Blizzard moronically giving Gretech a two year exclusivity deal on broadcasting Starcraft II matches) in Korea's Starcraft II scene at all.
The IPL has proven that restricting invites and qualifiers to North America and Europe can still make the league strong. It's not like the NASL, Dreamhack tournaments or MLG would be dependent on Korean entrants and would go downhill if Korean teams refused to send their players to foreign events over the PuMa issue..
In the space of a year, North America already has much more money in its Starcraft II scene than South Korea does.
Starcraft II hasn't taken off in South Korea to the extent that Brood War did several years ago.

Whitewing

United States7483 Posts

July 21 2011 19:54 GMT

#4405

So wait, Korean gaming culture dictates that you have to do these things a certain way, but they are shocked when a non-Korean team doesn't apply the same standards?

Numy

South Africa35471 Posts

July 21 2011 19:54 GMT

#4406

On July 22 2011 04:47 farnham wrote:

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yeah but this does not mean anything legally and TSL is responsible for this fact. if they had a employment contract or something it would be binding. TSl chose not to do that and they are facing the consequences

I'm not quire sure why you keep bring this up. We know he had no contract and wasn't legally bound to TSL. Still doesn't change the fact that many of us think EG shouldn't have talked to Puma DURING NASL and instead notified TSL they were going to talk to him. A lot of guys talk about growing the scene together but when people actively go against this principle of cooperation it just doesn't sit right.

insaneMicro

Germany761 Posts

July 21 2011 19:54 GMT

#4407

Wow this thread is still going strong I see~
Anyhow, the indignation on the Korean side of this argument continues to baffle me. They seem to regard PuMa signing a contract w/ a foreign team as BM on EG's side. Maybe they feel like they should have been informed earlier?

cellblock

Sweden206 Posts

July 21 2011 19:54 GMT

#4408

Lmfao, why do you all whine at EG? Its Pumas decision, he is the Judas. He was not forced, it was his will. Nearly the same thing happens all the time in football. When players have 6 months or less left of their contracts, other clubs can "steal" them for free. Money money money is what rules peoples minds. Maybe Puma liked America from his recent NASL and wanted to live there, and tour and see the world? What do we know, nothing at all.

[Atomic]Peace

United States451 Posts

July 21 2011 19:55 GMT

#4409

On July 22 2011 04:52 IamPryda wrote:
Anyone who thinks this is a good thing for esports or even the foreign scence is wrong. up untill now sc2 has been working towards an environment where NA,Europe, and Korea all were working together but this move by EG will lead to some mistrust and fears of more player poaching. A comparable situation between the NHL and Russia super league exist for those of u who follow hockey and it has lead to several players under contract being stolen by each other. I think in the end Puma did a dishonorable thing but it is EG who is in the wrong because u cant really blame a young kid for taking a bunch of money and free housing to live in America.

This will result in more young kids getting free housing and a salary. That is not a bad thing. Honor doesn't pay the bills and it is a bad excuse for Korean teams not providing their players with appropriate compensation.

Tripc897

11 Posts

July 21 2011 19:55 GMT

#4410

On July 22 2011 04:48 Sqq wrote:

Show nested quote +

Mind I ask what the ITG incident was ?

ITG incident is the Inside the game incident, where it resulted in Incontrol leaving state of the game, and EG's "Cover-up" and "lying" about the real reason Incontrol left

Executor1

1353 Posts

July 21 2011 19:55 GMT

#4411

That is truely despicable on EG's part. They basically just stole Puma away from TSL. With promises of more money (wich is fine) but its the stealing part i find despicable THE TEAM should be contacted about aquiring a player not some sneaky backdoor approach where you go to the player and just offer them X dollars.

Is this even a good decision for puma? is he going to be moving to the US?

moonmeh

Korea (South)105 Posts

July 21 2011 19:55 GMT

#4412

Maybe it's because I lived a lot of my life outside Korea but I am really fucking confused to the hate Puma is recieving. I mean I know my culture has bad habit of jumping the gun and start witch hunts but this is ridiculous. We have comments pretty scary comments like "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this" being made which sounds pretty damn xenophobic.

I don't understand this guilt tripping of Puma saying hey, I gave you shelter and stuff so stay with us til the end of time. If he isn't under any legal contract to stay of course he will want to choose a better deal. So many of my countrymen are just acting like if they would favour blind loyalty over improvement of one's situation.

Yes EG could have handled this with more tact but honestly the team right now does not deserve the hate it is recieving, I'm sad to say with the say Koreans are reacting even with the coaches, players and casters with one side of the story we aren't really giving the best of impressions of our ability to be the SC2 hotspot.

Giwoon

Korea (South)431 Posts

July 21 2011 19:55 GMT

#4413

EGPUMA!!!!!!
and wowowow all the koreans on playXP are like 'oh my god...'

and are there any video interviews on this?!

chatuka

1351 Posts

July 21 2011 19:55 GMT

#4414

On July 22 2011 04:49 farvacola wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 22 2011 04:43 [Atomic]Peace wrote:

On July 22 2011 04:31 Soap wrote:

On July 22 2011 04:26 [Atomic]Peace wrote:

On July 22 2011 04:23 JWD wrote:

On July 22 2011 04:22 [Atomic]Peace wrote:

On July 22 2011 04:19 LegendaryZ wrote:
I'm concerned about the effects this event is going to have. Some people seem to believe that this kind of thing is somehow positive for eSports and will help it grow because players will have more power to guarantee themselves better conditions. I disagree with this and believe that it may very well negatively affect the eSports scene.

Up until this point, the Starcraft 2 scene has largely been run on trust and cooperation. This is what has allowed for the relative lack of regulation within teams and across leagues. EG in this instance has essentially abused that trust and taken advantage of it by poaching a player at a foreign event. You can certainly fault TSL for lacking foresight and not mandating a contract, but this type of naivete is pretty much what many people praised about the SC2 scene. We like to bash KeSPA for its heavy regulations and control over players, but that's exactly what people faulting TSL are arguing should be the norm while at the same time not wanting such a regulatory body to come into fruition.

I'm afraid that a KeSPA-like organization or at least that type of atmosphere is going to be created in response to this, effectively forcing players into contracts and heavily regulating their freedoms in an effort for teams to ensure the protection of their investments. While what EG has done here isn't necessarily wrong, it can't be denied that they've effectively "changed the game" as far as the way teams and players interact goes and the statement that Manager Lee made about measures being put into place in order to prevent this from happening in the future is an immediate indicator of that. The sweet and innocent SC2 scene that we've known so far has all of a sudden become serious business with all of the atmosphere of distrust that comes with it.

It may make the scene more legitimate and closer to the real sports leagues that we see today, but I wonder if that's what we really want for SC2. After all, KeSPA was undeniably an effective organization whose methods, while somewhat ruthless, are tried and true in the business sense (EG would have never been able to pull this on one of their teams or players). Honestly though, when you consider this, don't we want teams to be a little bit more naive and trusting if only for the sake of the players?

KeSPA2 will only happen in the players themselves accept it. And I think they wont, given the treatment of players under KeSPA.

What's your basis for this statement (I'm legitimately curious; not a knock)? I haven't ever heard that KeSPA was created or ever promulgated rules with the consent of the players. My understanding is that KeSPA is an organization founded and controlled by the Korean government and the team sponsors, not the players.

There are two major differences between BW and SC2: (1) the players know how bad KeSPA worked out for them and they might resist it this time and (2) the players have two secondary markets with at least as much money (US and Europe). BW players got kind of screwed because you had to stay in Korea and put up with KeSPA in order to have a career. But in SC2 you can have a career in US and Europe.

KeSPA worked wonderfully to the players, in comparison to the current SC2 scene. The top BW salary is 10x more than of TSL, and that's from a 13 years old game. B-teamers don't make money on either game anyway.

The fact that top BW salaries are what they are is due to BWs popularity, not due to KeSPA. In fact, KeSPA is probably holding the salaries down. If top players were allowed to have agents I'm guessing they could negotiate for higher salaries.

This is a rather important point that many have ignored in lieu of simply considering TSL the victim here. In every team sports example presented, players have AGENTS, legally savvy individuals who represent them and allow them to negotiate with teams on an even level. The fact that players do not have agents speaks to the compromised position they put themselves in when signing with a team; its one versus a whole organization, one with members who no doubt are quite well versed in the practices of KESPA and related authorities. I'd like to see what Puma himself has to say, especially considering that the team manager effectively called him and EG liars for insisting that Puma initiated the conversation.

it's called throwing a red herring..

Red herring's were distractiontechniques of throwing fish into the streets to throw off the scent of a theft. in the old days. TSL got what they deserved. they will be just fine in one year. I guarantee it..

Obviously, SC2 is not as organized as MLB, NBA, NFL. where there are CBA, trade deadlines. Rule violations with soliciting an opposing team, or collusion to raise prices, lower salary caps. All implemented by the Collective bargaining agreement between the Owners and the Player's union.

Eventually, when SC2 grows and grows, players will realize a union will need to form. The owners wil hire a commisioner or Comiscar. and a legal agreement will provide the framework for the rules and regulations of the E-sport in discussion.

This is not a big power move by EG as you nitties are claiming it to be. It's just a move to strengthen EG. It won't affect the outcome of EG's status in SC2 that much. Nor will TSL go down the toilet. Since there is a deep Farm system in United nations of South Korea to recruit from..

KeyHunt

United States218 Posts

July 21 2011 19:56 GMT

#4415

Going to provide my opinion for what it's worth. Legally, what EG supposedly did was perfectly fine. The player was not signed to a contract, the player supposedly openly wanted something else, case closed.

Now, that does not make it right. I am a firm believer in mutual respect. Especially for Korean teams who have shown a ton of respect so far to foreign players, and being INCREDIBLY open to working together with us in the past and currently. However, I also believe EG believes in those same values..so I most certainly think this story is missing something. People need to realize that often in gaming there are many things that are left unsaid and many things that get lost in translation ( not Korean translation either ). They might have approached him just to see if he was at all interested, and he took that as an offer and went to his management..and then this all went down. Or, maybe someone made an offer that wasn't supposed to..to the player without management knowing..or maybe, EG just made him an offer with no intention of ever talking to TSL...but the point is we do not know and cannot make good judgment calls on it without hearing both sides.

So, I have no problem with criticizing EG or anyone else for that matter for doing things I believe are wrong...BUT..shall we at least wait to get their side of the story before getting the pitchforks? I think they deserve that.

Love you all for being so passionate about any issue like this in days like these though either way. No matter what the issue to show this much passion really shows how far we have come.

seoul_kiM

United States545 Posts

July 21 2011 19:56 GMT

#4416

On July 22 2011 04:36 legaton wrote:
Liquid - oGs: partnership. Everyone is happy about it.

SK Gaming - oGs: sponsorship for Nada and MC in foreign tournaments. Everyones happy about it

Fanatic - Rain: recruitment of a new player. Some critics against Rain for leaving GSL so abruptly. No critics to Fanatic.

FXO - Fou : buy-out after friendly negotiation. Everyone is happy about it.

EG - TSL/Puma: recruitment of a player behind his team's back, lies about Puma contacting them first. TSL/Korean community is pissed off.

People can claim "that's how capitalism work" all they want. Doesn't change the fact it is a shitty argument. Fanatic, Liquid, FXO, Sk Gaming are all pro structures working under free market conditions (aka capitalism). They had no problem negotiating their way through koreans team and players and founding acceptable agreements for all parties involved. What EG did just shows they have a short-sighted management and poor PR.

How is capitalism being the root of business practices a "shitty argument"? I don't think EG wants partnerships but rather it wants its own players. They went about everything legally and the fault is on TSL for not having a legally binging contract. A partnership for EG wasn't acceptable and they didn't need to go to the organization but rather simply ask Puma himself. Puma brought his talents to South Beach. Your opinion has many holes in it and is logically fallacious, it's also full of folly.

[Atomic]Peace

United States451 Posts

July 21 2011 19:56 GMT

#4417

On July 22 2011 04:54 Grimsong wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 22 2011 04:46 [Atomic]Peace wrote:

On July 22 2011 04:32 LegendaryZ wrote:

On July 22 2011 04:22 [Atomic]Peace wrote:
KeSPA2 will only happen in the players themselves accept it. And I think they wont, given the treatment of players under KeSPA.

When teams start mandating contracts in order to join their team to protect their investment in their players, you're effectively forcing players to accept contracts to play the game professionally. Teams that don't control their players will simply put themselves at risk of having these players get poached by other teams so everyone's going to start doing it if only to prevent themselves from being made fools of like in this instance. The players themselves have little choice in the matter because it's the teams that hold the money, resources, and opportunities.

Do you think KeSPA grew up out of the ground overnight and started ruling their players with an iron fist from the start? It was a natural evolution of the type of business mindset that we're seeing here. While initially, players will be empowered by it, all of that change very quickly change once teams realize that they need to protect their own interests.

This is not to say that it WILL happen, but we're certainly starting down the path where this becomes a very real possibility if we don't tread lightly.

Agreed. It's a classic company versus organized labor type situation.

Sqq

Norway2023 Posts

July 21 2011 19:56 GMT

#4418

Sorry to break your beautiful fairy tale dream, but eSPORTS does involve a lot of money now. Thats why you see in any other sports that players are tied down by very hard set contracts. If a team then wants a player you need to buy them out.

Puma ? wasn't even contracted so I can't really understand where you are comming from. EG gave this kid a chance to go to more tournaments, to earn a living doing what he loves. What EG is doing for the kid will open so many more doors for him than what TSL was doing for him ? Puma only followed what was in his best interested and thats something everyone would have done.

Ownos

United States2147 Posts

July 21 2011 19:56 GMT

#4419

On July 22 2011 04:32 PHC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yes, I did.

thirnaz adam
@SirScoots you have yo be the biggest fucking joke of all time within esports; such a sad character you are.
10 hours ago

ZinZio Zach
@SirScoots Your response to @thirnaz just goes to show how professional EG has become..
3 hours ago

The fact that he's not addressing the issue and is replying to hateful comments with "umadbro?" with millions of SC fans around the world watching and hundreds of Korean progaming careers are affected because of his behavior....

LOL

I'll need to echo my first response in this thread: Lol EG always with the bad manner

Man! Everyone forgets about Reign's acquisition of Phoenix. Poor Phoenix.

Ome

Canada157 Posts

July 21 2011 19:56 GMT

#4420

While it's true that some players have been signed from the NHL and KHL (Radulov being the biggest name recently) they have come to an agreement with each other to respect the contracts of each league in the future, and if a player wants to break their contract and move to another league they must do certain things agreed by both leagues.

Unfortunately, no current governing bodies like the NHL or KHL exist for SC2.

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