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On July 22 2011 05:06 ronpaul012 wrote:
I think the hidden story is that its moving away from korean scene being better than the foreign scene. Many have speculated stuff like this happening, but its interesting to see it finally happen. But now korean owners/managers against foreign owners/managers might get really intense. I hope they dont draw a line trying to keep all the players just to one side.
The Korean scene is important. They seem to be the most dedicated to promote and actively raise the standard of RTS Level. What needs to happen is that big behemoths like China, Russia, and Japan start upping their investment in SC2 so that youngsters have a Financial Incentive to become Great at RTS games.
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On July 22 2011 05:08 Shamrock_ wrote:
In the business world conduct like this is so thoroughly frowned upon that other companies may not even work with you. I can absolutely understand TSL's problem with it and I think EG should've seen this coming.
Exactly this is a pretty big mark against EG. It's completely legal, but ethics wise it's pretty nutty to expect no backlash off poaching talent from other companies/teams.
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On July 22 2011 05:02 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:58 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 22 2011 04:47 farnham wrote:On July 22 2011 04:45 Xeris wrote:
Differences:
- SK presumably negotiated this deal directly with oGs since there wasn't really any outcry (one can only assume oGs would have made a big deal if SK went behind their backs).
- Rain left TSL team weeks before he joined Fnatic. He expressly said in the article about him leaving TSL that he wanted to join a foreign team and play foreign events, so it wasn't a big surprise.
- fOu and FXO had been working together and built a nice relationship, so the FXO acquisition of fOu isn't really a big shocker
In this case however, PuMa was obviously still a member of TSL. EG had full knowledge that he was on the team, and decided to negotiate a deal with him anyways. yeah but this does not mean anything legally and TSL is responsible for this fact. if they had a employment contract or something it would be binding. TSl chose not to do that and they are facing the consequences Why do people arguing about the legality of this action when it is completely an ethical issue? Huge dick move by EG and now half the koreans feel disrespected by foreigners. "Oh but who cares about what the koreans think?" The coach is not exactly going to spread tales of greatness about EG. This event has a completely negative impact on the foreigner scene because of one team. Horrible team for Puma to join regardless especially when Incontrol spent his SoTG days lobbying how koreans were elitists with too much pride. Now they recruit a player who is actually skilled. Irony much. if anything this will improve the situations of the players as the teams will realize that they will need contracts to bind their players
it's funny how you claim it will "improve" the situation when both the coaches and players themselves are pissed that they have to enforce contracts.
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so what does this mean for puma? is he going to be living on his own in korea now or coming to live in EG house ?
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On July 22 2011 05:10 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:08 Shamrock_ wrote:
In the business world conduct like this is so thoroughly frowned upon that other companies may not even work with you. I can absolutely understand TSL's problem with it and I think EG should've seen this coming. Exactly this is a pretty big mark against EG. It's completely legal, but ethics wise it's pretty nutty to expect no backlash off poaching talent from other companies/teams.
Yet again, as far as we know Puma wanted off TSL for a while and approached EG at NASL, we simply do not have the full story yet (especially considering that Mr. Lee basically acused EG and Puma of out and out lying). Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.
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On July 22 2011 05:06 D.Devil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote:
The people defending EG don't get it. Sure there was no contract, but it's not the way things are done in Korean culture. The Coach fully said that if EG contacted him first, he would have gladly negotiated something to let Puma join EG because he wants what is best for Puma, but EG went behind their backs so he feels there is a lack of respect, and doesn't believe e-sports should be like this. A player signing should be more professional, instead of relying on a legal loophole to sign players without any repercussion. Why do Western teams have to adjust to Korean culture? Why shouldn't TSL feel obligated to comply with the way Western esports is run? After all, they allowed PuMa to participate in a non-Korean tournament, too. Let's face it: Right now, Western esports clans are managed in a more professional way than the Korean ones. Contracts are an absolute must and the industry standard since half a decade.
Because Puma is Korean and so is TSL...
Wouldn't you expect people to respect your culture and so on if people from foreign countries would be in Germany???
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The TSL coach and Jason Lake should get together and share their stories. This isn't the first time EG has done something like this.
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"Also, this entire thing would have never been an issue if EG talked to TSL first... This entire thing would have been seen positively then." from @OrangeMilkis' twitter
I hope this doesn't negatively affect future foreigner/Korean relations. I don't think what EG did was "wrong" but could have been "more right" as Milkis pointed out. Also, understand Coach Lee's frustration as this was his player and this is the fourth player his team has lost in the last couple of months. Maybe there will be some kind of apology and reconciliation to make everyone feel better about the mess. Really no one did wrong in this situation but it could have been handled better.
Either way can't wait to see how E.G. benefits from having one of the best Terrans in the world!
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Hmmm..... I wonder if puma will be in EG house and also i hope that this does not cause animosity towards the two scenes
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This is ridiculous.
Puma is a free man and if he messed up or sucked, TSL could have and would have dropped him. Since they can drop him at anytime, he is also free to leave at any time for greener pastures.
I've been on both sides of this. TSL is upset to lose him because he is great and going to get better, but TSL bennefits from extremely cheap access to talent because they don't pay or contract players.
They can't have it both ways!!!! If you want to secure your players..... PAY THEM.... get them under contract!
The teams and managers have no right to complain about players. Players are the cheapest talent available. I can't hire a decent HTML designer for less than 50k per year..... and TSL cry's that they can't HOLD a superstar SC2 player for giving him computer access?
Go PUMA!
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I am sorry if this has been answered already, but has any official statement been released by EG?
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I don't think Puma will find practice partners in kOrea to play for in SC2. unless he changes his name. I agree, that EG will be affected by backlash by the Korean SC2 scene. Honestly, i don't even think this is that great of a move by EG. Until EG start raising their homegrown talent or recruit amazing foreign talents spanning the globe. One Korean person, who is a hot name, will not Change the fortunes of EG. they need to competely overhaul their roster. Or change the practice routine and Nutrition and diet of team members. Organic food and distilled water. Air filters of Hepa quality..
That will start improving the mind of these pro gamers.
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Its like Messi running around with no contract...HELLO!!!...ofc someone is gonna sign him. Puma gets paid a good salary and gets to go to all the tournaments! Financial security does alot for a player! TSL is just dumb as hell not to give him a contract. As far as I understand from Artosis in the last SoTG all the high end players DO have contracts allready...and again...good faith doesnt put food on the table..an actual contract does! So screw the goodie 2 shoes..go live under a bridge without work...see how you like it.
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I'm trying not to make generalizations about the Korean scene, but I'm getting a real 'good ol' boy' feeling from Coach Lee's comments. Like he's not mad about losing a player, but about losing the absolute power he had over his players. These players can't leave Korea unless they have sponsorship. Do you think any Korean would not sign a contract that had a clause requiring them to go through the team? Of course they'd sign it; they have no idea of their value until they join a team. Do you think the teams would then let them join a foreign team? Not very many.
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Well, there's always WoC in about three hours, maybe we could get this straighten out then.
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United States12607 Posts
On July 22 2011 05:08 Shamrock_ wrote:
In the business world conduct like this is so thoroughly frowned upon that other companies may not even work with you. I can absolutely understand TSL's problem with it and I think EG should've seen this coming.
It is? I'm curious what exactly you mean.
I don't know that much about standard employment practices but I am pretty sure it's regular in the U.S. to set up a second job before you quit your first, and give your two weeks' notice/notify your employer of the other job only once you have that job set up. My understanding is that it's mostly NCCs that prevent companies from approaching other companies' employees with job offers, not business ethics.
I can think of a couple examples to support this understanding: college football coaches being hired away by NFL teams before announcing that they've left their colleges, low-level execs at companies being courted for CEO-ships at other companies...
What examples are you thinking of when you say that this conduct is "frowned upon"?
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On July 22 2011 05:14 Jerubaal wrote:
I'm trying not to make generalizations about the Korean scene, but I'm getting a real 'good ol' boy' feeling from Coach Lee's comments. Like he's not mad about losing a player, but about losing the absolute power he had over his players. These players can't leave Korea unless they have sponsorship. Do you think any Korean would not sign a contract that had a clause requiring them to go through the team? Of course they'd sign it; they have no idea of their value until they join a team. Do you think the teams would then let them join a foreign team? Not very many.
What makes you think this...?
On July 22 2011 05:15 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:08 Shamrock_ wrote:
In the business world conduct like this is so thoroughly frowned upon that other companies may not even work with you. I can absolutely understand TSL's problem with it and I think EG should've seen this coming. It is? I'm curious what exactly you mean. I don't know that much about standard employment practices but I am pretty sure it's regular in the U.S. to set up a second job before you quit your first, and give your two weeks' notice/notify your employer of the other job only once you have that job set up. My understanding is that it's mostly NCCs that prevent companies from approaching other companies' employees with job offers, not business ethics. I can think of a couple examples to support this understanding: college football coaches being hired away by NFL teams before announcing that they've left their colleges, low-level execs at companies being courted for CEO-ships at other companies... What examples are you thinking of when you say that this conduct is "frowned upon"?
I know that headhunters are the bane of any workplace. I've had to deal with a few, and they always come across as "hush hush, don't tell anyone, but we can get you a better deal".
Also, I work in the engineering field, and I know that whenever some group tries to take a co-worker, and the bosses find out, they then alienate that group and ask all their contacts to do so. It's pretty risky to jump ship if your original workplace may find out that you got headhunted.
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On July 22 2011 05:04 MrDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote:
The people defending EG don't get it. Sure there was no contract, but it's not the way things are done in Korean culture. The Coach fully said that if EG contacted him first, he would have gladly negotiated something to let Puma join EG because he wants what is best for Puma, but EG went behind their backs so he feels there is a lack of respect, and doesn't believe e-sports should be like this. A player signing should be more professional, instead of relying on a legal loophole to sign players without any repercussion. If he really wanted what is best for puma, he would not be upset about this at all. Puma got a great deal out of this, as did EG, the only party that suffered was TSL. Also, just because it is korean culture does not make it superior. Its kind of ironic how people talk about the trust and faith that korea is supposedly built on, yet you are not free to state an anonymous opinion on the internet.
In terms of developing as a player this is certainly not what is best for puma. If its just about money for puma then that sucks, he must be fairly poor. TSL probably would have been able to offer him more money.
I dont have any conformation on this but people are saying that he will stil be staying in korea, assuming this is the case then this is definitely not what is best for puma, sure he will have money but he will lose all the practice partners and a coach that helped make him great in the first place.
Its really sad actually, before i thought puma will do great things but i cant see him going that far with EG, sure maybe in the next few months he will win a few more things but his skill will slowly degrade and he wont have a chance in any tournaments where other top koreans show up , without a practice house/ skilled practice partners and coaches.
Its not like EG is still planning to set up a house in korea and even if puma did move to pheonix to the practice house its not like he would gain much from it, he hardly speaks english so he wouldnt beable to discuss strategies very well and EG has far far less skilled players then TSL so maybe he would help the EG players but he wouldnt be helping himself.
Regardless of EG pulling a douchebag move, this still isn the right play for puma beyond the fact that he is probably poor and EG offered him some average salary that he would take in a minute.
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On July 22 2011 05:03 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:59 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On July 22 2011 04:57 Soap wrote:On July 22 2011 04:43 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On July 22 2011 04:31 Soap wrote:On July 22 2011 04:26 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On July 22 2011 04:23 JWD wrote:On July 22 2011 04:22 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On July 22 2011 04:19 LegendaryZ wrote:
I'm concerned about the effects this event is going to have. Some people seem to believe that this kind of thing is somehow positive for eSports and will help it grow because players will have more power to guarantee themselves better conditions. I disagree with this and believe that it may very well negatively affect the eSports scene.
Up until this point, the Starcraft 2 scene has largely been run on trust and cooperation. This is what has allowed for the relative lack of regulation within teams and across leagues. EG in this instance has essentially abused that trust and taken advantage of it by poaching a player at a foreign event. You can certainly fault TSL for lacking foresight and not mandating a contract, but this type of naivete is pretty much what many people praised about the SC2 scene. We like to bash KeSPA for its heavy regulations and control over players, but that's exactly what people faulting TSL are arguing should be the norm while at the same time not wanting such a regulatory body to come into fruition.
I'm afraid that a KeSPA-like organization or at least that type of atmosphere is going to be created in response to this, effectively forcing players into contracts and heavily regulating their freedoms in an effort for teams to ensure the protection of their investments. While what EG has done here isn't necessarily wrong, it can't be denied that they've effectively "changed the game" as far as the way teams and players interact goes and the statement that Manager Lee made about measures being put into place in order to prevent this from happening in the future is an immediate indicator of that. The sweet and innocent SC2 scene that we've known so far has all of a sudden become serious business with all of the atmosphere of distrust that comes with it.
It may make the scene more legitimate and closer to the real sports leagues that we see today, but I wonder if that's what we really want for SC2. After all, KeSPA was undeniably an effective organization whose methods, while somewhat ruthless, are tried and true in the business sense (EG would have never been able to pull this on one of their teams or players). Honestly though, when you consider this, don't we want teams to be a little bit more naive and trusting if only for the sake of the players? KeSPA2 will only happen in the players themselves accept it. And I think they wont, given the treatment of players under KeSPA. What's your basis for this statement (I'm legitimately curious; not a knock)? I haven't ever heard that KeSPA was created or ever promulgated rules with the consent of the players. My understanding is that KeSPA is an organization founded and controlled by the Korean government and the team sponsors, not the players. There are two major differences between BW and SC2: (1) the players know how bad KeSPA worked out for them and they might resist it this time and (2) the players have two secondary markets with at least as much money (US and Europe). BW players got kind of screwed because you had to stay in Korea and put up with KeSPA in order to have a career. But in SC2 you can have a career in US and Europe. KeSPA worked wonderfully to the players, in comparison to the current SC2 scene. The top BW salary is 10x more than of TSL, and that's from a 13 years old game. B-teamers don't make money on either game anyway. The fact that top BW salaries are what they are is due to BWs popularity, not due to KeSPA. In fact, KeSPA is probably holding the salaries down. If top players were allowed to have agents I'm guessing they could negotiate for higher salaries. They are allowed to negotiate. They can't threaten with switching teams because of the ridiculous penalties, but an unsatisfied player does no good for the team. If you can't switch teams it is not a negotiation, it is a farce. Imagine trying to negotiate for a salary if you weren't allowed to switch employers. Of course it is, else why KT pays $300k an year or so to Flash?
Flash is worth more in a free market. Not being allowed to switch teams is an extremely disadvantageous negotiating position and unless the corporations that run Starcraft in Korea are stupid (hint: they're not), the negotiation was resolved favorably for the corporations. Therefore, Flash at $300K is a BARGIN.
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On July 22 2011 05:04 MrDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:00 SkimGuy wrote:
The people defending EG don't get it. Sure there was no contract, but it's not the way things are done in Korean culture. The Coach fully said that if EG contacted him first, he would have gladly negotiated something to let Puma join EG because he wants what is best for Puma, but EG went behind their backs so he feels there is a lack of respect, and doesn't believe e-sports should be like this. A player signing should be more professional, instead of relying on a legal loophole to sign players without any repercussion. If he really wanted what is best for puma, he would not be upset about this at all. Puma got a great deal out of this, as did EG, the only party that suffered was TSL. Also, just because it is korean culture does not make it superior. Its kind of ironic how people talk about the trust and faith that korea is supposedly built on, yet you are not free to state an anonymous opinion on the internet.
You pretty much failed to understand Lee's comments. This is the difference between a person running away from home and sending a letter to his parents a week later, or just being honest with them in the first place. Why shouldn't he be upset?
And what are these anonymous opinions people aren't free to state on the internet? That's utterly wrong and ridiculous. If you're referring to the SlayerS_Jessica/Eve thing, it's 100% clear people can say whatever they want on the internet until they are putting the lives of others at risk, for which there is already a serious precedent. It's no different than yelling "fire" in a theater. Listen to Artosis talk about that on SotG if you don't believe it-it's around the 30 minute mark where they discuss Major first.
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EPT
