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EchoZ
Japan5041 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:49 DeSam wrote: agreed, like the FXO move, that was a good business move I don't think teams can be easily bought though. FXO's case was different because Choya's team (fOu) had financial difficulties and seeked help from FXO, which FXO then bought. Teams like SlayerS and oGs are pretty well funded with sponsors, so its highly unlikely that sales of team takes place often. | ||
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stormchaser
Canada1009 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:44 Shinobi1982 wrote: In the west, if a player is not contracted he is basically a free agent. In Korea one does not just walk up to a player and offer him/her a deal without speaking with his team manager first (or the one responsible for player "transfers"), it's a matter of respect. Westerner simply do not care about such things if a player is not contracted. Now if EG acquired a NA or EU player, I understand their position. BUT, if you are acquiring a player from Korea, you have to play by their "rules". So imo it's dirty business. I'll still be rooting for PuMa but I hope "Kespa 2.0" handles this issue so in future such things can be avoided. Tell me where these rules you speak of are listed. If your reasoning is cultural differences, then clearly you don't understand what is happening for all 3 parties involved. Puma gains money and joins a great team that obviously supports him, which had influenced him to make the switch. No one forced him. EG gains a great player, has more presence in the korean world of esports, and has much more potential as a team now. They also support a great player who is good enough to make such an ambitious risk. TSL is currently nagging about the decision, but this is their problem, no one elses. It is natural for a team to get upset over losing a top player, but they should realise this is about support and money. That is what sports are in general. One can not simply own a player as if it were a permanent asset. Players like Puma are not a commodity. That is one messed up way of thinking if you believe this means Puma and EG are doing, ''dirty business''. That is disgusting. | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:47 tooPrime wrote: I believe on Fruitdealer and Trickster had salaries and no one else. Also if you reread my post I said that they are bad mouthing Puma and EG right now my calling this out when they really should have just given Puma a contract a long time ago. The way I see they went to player and said we will offer you more money and the chance to actually make more money (via foreign tournaments) if you join our team. TSL could have after Puma told them offerered him more money but they were either unwilling or unable to and so he went where was best for him. I dont understand this theory that players are slaves to the team they play for, if Puma wanted to have better benefits more power to him and if EG wanted to upgrade there roster by picking up a top level Korean Terran than good for them as well. | ||
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Bitters
Canada303 Posts
Puma is on TSL, goes and dominates NASL. Is approached by EG about joining a foreign team, he decides he wants to go this route. Puma tells TSL the news, they can: A) Tell him no, you are under contract and cannot leave the team B) Tell him yes, we will release you from your contractual obligations C) Can't tell him anything, because they don't have him under contract If "A", then this news doesn't occur. If "B", then TSL opted not to enforce their contract and have no reason to complain about Puma leaving, and EG could be seen in a negative light for trying to poach a contracted player. If "C", then TSL would be upset and complain about the situation because they did not have the intelligence or foresight to contract their "professional" players on a "professional" team. With these teams being involved with money, salaries, sponsors, there is no reason to think they do not need contracts. With the response from TSL (complaining and finger pointing), it seems "C" is the likely scenario. I have no idea how someone can blame EG for doing what's right by them. If you have a star player not under contract, you do what you can to get him under contract. You don't need to talk to TSL, they are his team, not his "agent" (since he likely doesn't have an agent, Puma would represent himself then). When professional sports players are unrestricted free agents (not under contract) you don't need to deal with the team they were on, you deal with the agent. And if Puma was under contract ("B"), then TSL should give its head a shake for not enforcing there own stipulations and then complaining about Puma joining a team after they green-lighted his release. Edit: And for those saying "but in Korea, you do this with manner, talk to the team, etc."... Sorry, but an American team making an offer at NASL (on American soil in an American based tournament) to someone playing a Global e-sport, should not be expected to follow a single countries rules. If they do, then they are going out of their way to be exceptionally inclusive, but I don't see how this should be the standard. | ||
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oogieogie
United States3657 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:51 MrCon wrote: He just won 50k thanks to TSL, I don't know if he has a salary or not but this prize money is still here because TSL invested in him. It's not a salary but can be considered as a salary. Hope he'll at least pay TSL for plane ticket + money invested to send him to NASL... Now in a few months he'll have no chance to win anything because he'll lose too much in skill practicing in USA, so I hope his salary worth it. I'm conflicted about this. One one hand it's good for Puma (at least in the short run), and it's good for him to have more stability (I think). On the other hand, it seems to be a real dick move from EG (but I'll wait for more details to judge) its impossible to play in other regions for laddering -_-. | ||
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Grimsong
United States252 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:49 DeSam wrote: agreed, like the FXO move, that was a good business move How is that a good business move? Absorbing all of a team - even the fat? That is a terrible business decision. Team wants a specific part of the team, or parts, that's what they should be targetting. The excess players who come along in that deal aren't what they want to pay for. So why pay for them? Not to mention the added complexities of buying a whole team to merge, as opposed to the 1-2 players that the team actually wants. I know what people are trying to say here. But the world is alot bigger than that. | ||
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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:45 Rinrun wrote: Now how can you be sure that he was paid inadequately? I'd like to see some sources. Also on the topic of "badmouthing" that happened after the fact, not before. Considering that there have been many players leaving TSL recently, they are either not getting payed well or are getting treated poorly. I don't see any other reason why so many players would be leaving. Also, if EG is willing to pay $X for Puma, then he is worth $X. If TSL isn't paying him that, then they aren't paying him what he is worth. | ||
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jonathan1
United States395 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:42 stormchaser wrote: Agreed. Why should they. Do I see a wall of rules this team must follow? Nope. Exactly. If I were a team manager, I'd be stealing as many koreans and taking them over the west as possible. They are good at the game, why would any smart manager not do this? It's good for all involved. If TSL is mad about the decision, they shold've taken care of such an AAA player better. Yea man coaches and managers are transparent. Hey! Lets do this, everytime a Korean comes to a foreign event lets drag him to one side when he goes to the toilet and offer him a contract. A contract far better than his current one. "Hey MVP and DRG your teams are paying you $1k per month? We'll give you $5k". Then tell his management after he signs it! Nothing wrong at all ! | ||
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:51 MrCon wrote: He just won 50k thanks to TSL, I don't know if he has a salary or not but this prize money is still here because TSL invested in him. It's not a salary but can be considered as a salary. Hope he'll at least pay TSL for plane ticket + money invested to send him to NASL... Now in a few months he'll have no chance to win anything because he'll lose too much in skill practicing in USA, so I hope his salary worth it. I'm conflicted about this. One one hand it's good for Puma (at least in the short run), and it's good for him to have more stability (I think). On the other hand, it seems to be a real dick move from EG (but I'll wait for more details to judge) On July 21 2011 23:51 MrCon wrote: He just won 50k thanks to TSL, I don't know if he has a salary or not but this prize money is still here because TSL invested in him. It's not a salary but can be considered as a salary. Hope he'll at least pay TSL for plane ticket + money invested to send him to NASL... Analogous to a sunk cost. Irrelevant to the separate decision of changing teams - the topic of conversation. On July 21 2011 23:51 MrCon wrote: Now in a few months he'll have no chance to win anything because he'll lose too much in skill practicing in USA, so I hope his salary worth it. Care to evidence: - That he'll be moving overseas, and that if he isn't the large amount of practice partners isn't enough (watch any krn progamer stream.. they have lists of pros they practice with not from their own team). - That he'll deteriorate to the point of not being able to crush foreigner tournaments and not be able to make huge sums of money if he does move overseas. | ||
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tooPrime
United States245 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:51 Rinrun wrote: You believe, that's not concrete. Also, bad mouthing right now- did they bad mouth him before or after he left? As I have said earlier in this thread, I want some concrete evidence to whether puma was or was not under contract with TSL. If he was under contract then how could he leave TSL? Sheth also said on twitter he was a free agent. I said "believe" because I don't have the official documents with me good sir, but it's what people in the know have said in the past on various podcasts etc. Also, right now means after he left. | ||
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:53 Dante08 wrote: Yea man coaches and managers are transparent. Hey! Lets do this, everytime a Korean comes to a foreign event lets drag him to one side when he goes to the toilet and offer him a contract. A contract far better than his current one. "Hey MVP and DRG your teams are paying you $1k per month? We'll give you $5k". Then tell his management after he signs it! Nothing wrong at all ! What's wrong with this? | ||
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rastaban
United States2294 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:52 Bitters wrote: I can't really understand this thread, maybe someone can help me out. Puma is on TSL, goes and dominates NASL. Is approached by EG about joining a foreign team, he decides he wants to go this route. Puma tells TSL the news, they can: A) Tell him no, you are under contract and cannot leave the team B) Tell him yes, we will release you from your contractual obligations C) Can't tell him anything, because they don't have him under contract If "A", then this news doesn't occur. If "B", then TSL opted not to enforce their contract and have no reason to complain about Puma leaving, and EG could be seen in a negative light for trying to poach a contracted player. If "C", then TSL would be upset and complain about the situation because they did not have the intelligence or foresight to contract their "professional" players on a "professional" team. With these teams being involved with money, salaries, sponsors, there is no reason to think they do not need contracts. With the response from TSL (complaining and finger pointing), it seems "C" is the likely scenario. I have no idea how someone can blame EG for doing what's right by them. If you have a star player not under contract, you do what you can to get him under contract. You don't need to talk to TSL, they are his team, not his "agent" (since he likely doesn't have an agent, Puma would represent himself then). When professional sports players are unrestricted free agents (not under contract) you don't need to deal with the team they were on, you deal with the agent. And if Puma was under contract ("B"), then TSL should give its head a shake for not enforcing there own stipulations and then complaining about Puma joining a team after they green-lighted his release. I think that about sums it, these are my thoughts exactly. Congrats to EG for this pickup, just like in business if you don't treat your employees right they will move on. | ||
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Proko
United States1022 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:53 Dante08 wrote: Yea man coaches and managers are transparent. Hey! Lets do this, everytime a Korean comes to a foreign event lets drag him to one side when he goes to the toilet and offer him a contract. A contract far better than his current one. "Hey MVP and DRG your teams are paying you $1k per month? We'll give you $5k". Then tell his management after he signs it! Nothing wrong at all ! You're silly. It's called bidding and contracts. It's not the like the players are being kidnapped when nobody is looking. How long ago were NASL finals? This deal took awhile to finalize. | ||
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Arcanne
United States1519 Posts
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:51 EchoZ wrote: I don't think teams can be easily bought though. FXO's case was different because Choya's team (fOu) had financial difficulties and seeked help from FXO, which FXO then bought. Teams like SlayerS and oGs are pretty well funded with sponsors, so its highly unlikely that sales of team takes place often. EVERY korean sc2 team has financial difficulties lol | ||
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Woshie
Australia90 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:53 Dante08 wrote: Yea man coaches and managers are transparent. Hey! Lets do this, everytime a Korean comes to a foreign event lets drag him to one side when he goes to the toilet and offer him a contract. A contract far better than his current one. "Hey MVP and DRG your teams are paying you $1k per month? We'll give you $5k". Then tell his management when after he signs it! No reason to tell them right? I think you fail to grasp something fundemental. It isn't up to EG or any other team Korean or Western to sort that out. It is up to the player who has received the offer. Hell the player could even say "I would like to put this through my management" or "please deal with the team if they so chose" or even shock horror "No thank you I'm happy where I'm at the moment" | ||
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Motion
Germany183 Posts
Don't know how to feel at this one. Lee seems to miss Kespa :/ | ||
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denzelz
United States604 Posts
You have Puma who just came from SC1 and doesn't know a thing about SC2. Sure, he might have gotten far on his own with pure talent, but TSL got a RISK and saw his POTENTIAL. So they housed him, fed him, and provided him practice partners for him to get better. When now, finally, he got good enough to win a major event, he gets up and leave for another team? I don't want to say if the decision is right or wrong, but you have to be able to see why Coach Lee is so upset. | ||
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jiveturkey
United States18 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:12 RogerChillingworth wrote: You =/= everyone else. Don't make extrapolations based on the sample size [of you]. It's obviously all relative. Not to mention the huge cultural divide you're overlooking. An older guy such as Scoots (or whoever/however many were involved in this decision making process), who is in a position of responsibility and power, should know better. End of story, end of thread. If what has been revealed is correct, it's clear EG cares about the interests of EG, and those interests alone. Not admirable. Not good for E-SPORTS. Not setting a good example. Two thumbs way down. There are better ways to go about finding top players. If the contract was indeed mind blistering, sitting down with the coach and player and doing things correctly would have yielded the same results--the TSL manager would still have been upset, but at least things were done professionally and respectfully. Rofl, i like how you decide when the thread ends. I never said that everyone is the same as me. But you are the one assuming that 19 year-old adults are not able to make these type of decisions. That is a blanket statement as well. 19 years is 19 years, whether that's in Korea, Afghanistan, or the UK. Cultural divides are irrelevant. At 19 years of age, a mind is fully capable of making this type of decision. That's not an opinion, it's a fact based on the extent of the development of the brain at that age. Sure, there are different levels of maturity, but even given immaturity, that does not imply that a person does not have the ability to make a tough decision at that age. I don't know enough about Korea, but I would assume that someone could choose a dangerous line of work or join the military at that age. The reason they would be able to at 19, is because they are capable of handling and adjusting to it. And a 19 year-old is definitely capable of choosing to play on a different video game team. EG did no wrong here, just as TSL (who also have a position of power relative to Puma) did no wrong by initially asking Puma to be on their team. Of course EG cares about the interests of EG, that's the world we live in. Fortunately, the interests usually coincide. EG wants a better player to make them more money, and Puma wants more money. So it's a mutually beneficial arrangement. This is how the market system works. It is not bad for e-sports, it's exactly how you create a competitive environment. It is not the responsibility of EG to talk with TSL management. They have no interest in TSL. They have interest in Puma. It is Puma's responsibility to talk with TSL, since that is who he had a contract with. EG does not have anything to do with TSL. And it would make things significantly harder for EG when you involve a party which has interest in stopping the mutually beneficial agreement between Puma and EG. It makes no sense for them to talk with TSL. | ||
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