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On July 21 2011 21:29 jenzebubble wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 21:26 Jonas  wrote:Really good for EG, Really good for Puma, Really bad for TSL, Really good for foreign eSports That's really all there is to say on the topic.Also: I'm fucking pumped. hahha How is this good for foreign esports? It's good for foreigner teams, but foreigner players may find themselves quickly out of work. If you're EG and you have the money to put together a package that is attractive to Puma, why aren't you floating said package to 3-4 other Koreans right now? If you're complexity or sixjax, don't you have to do the same to keep up?
Practice more.
If koreans can stay at a high level while outside of korea, then it means that foreigners are not practicing enough to earn their pay.
If it turns out korean's CAN'T keep their skill level outside of korea, then foreigner esports will die regardless.
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On July 21 2011 21:28 DJFaqU wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
"There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this" Silly manager. There is a system: it's called a contract and every sport that wants to be taken seriously employs it.
they probably did have a contract. if i were to guess, it was either 1) had very little time left on it and 2) TSL knew they weren't gonna be able to keep him anyways, so might as well let him opt out
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I wake up and read this news...
Why do I have a feeling this is only 1 part of the story like always. And I went through the damn thread... I feel bad for TSL, another loss.
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SC2, where the talent gets bought out and lost.
EG, working together to help destroy SC2.
YAY, I have new SC2 and EG slogans!
Side note, I will go out of my way to avoid ALL corporations sponsoring EG. ALL OF THEM!
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On July 21 2011 21:30 Shableh wrote:
This is very reminiscent of back in the CSS days, where Complexity was having a hard time, and Jason Lake was using up all of his own money, and doing all that he could for his css players, EG poaches them right from under Jason's nose.
Don't like the very opportunistic grab by EG on this one, especially since it really only benefits them from this. Sure it will be great for PuMa to get some foreigner tournaments for himself, but his skill is just going to drop off from not having any teammates over there living with him. Plus I don't know how well he actually speaks English... but having ONE Korean on a team has really got to set a strong language barrier.
IMO it's way too opportunistic for EG to do that
After the CGS fell a part there was a lot of uncertainty for the teams involved. At one point they didn't even own the rights to the names that they had prior to joining the CGS. EG was not invited to participate and spent their time picking up all the sponsors that had been dropped by teams that chose to compete in the CGS. When the CGS died EG had all the sponsors and all the money. A lot of the players, being young kids, had bought cars and had leases in nice townhouses. They, the former coL CS team, went for the stability EG could offer them in the post CGS world. fRoD and Jason Lake both have huge personalities, alphas to be sure. There was a fair bit of friction prior to CGS folding, add in financial uncertainty and I think you can see why the CS team jumped ship.
Did it suck for complexity? Yep. Did they feel betrayed? You betcha. Is there still some bad blood between to two organizations? Uh huh. Was there anything dirty about what EG did? Nope.
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On July 21 2011 21:21 Cartel wrote:
Some very on point comments by the people who are against the EG signing. Yes Puma owes something to TSL. Yes EG was very unethical for approaching Puma on their own.
Lets put it this way.
Imagine you are there, at NASL, the final event. And you know for a fact that PUMA is contracted to TSL, who spent their own money to fly him over there, and due to his success they must have spent a lot of money investing in him (team house, food, equipment, coaching, player connections, practice partners, salary etc..), and you as a team (EG) approaches him quietly to say "hey, would you like to come join our team? Lets talk about it more. Here's our number, call us" - behind the backs of the team coach. That my friends, is damn DIIIRTY.
I'm sorry. That's hardly dirty. There isn't a team in the world that wouldn't want Puma. EG just had the balls and funding to ask him, straight-up.
As much as TSL has done for Puma, at the end of the day Puma was just another contract employee. You make living in a team house with 10 other guys sound glamorous. A waiter in a decent restaurant makes more money than the average pro-gamer.
Puma owes TSL his gratitude and respect, but that's about it. He does not have to be loyal to them forever. And you need to give credit to Puma. At the end of the day he was the one putting in the time and hard work to get to the point that a foreigner team was willing to offer him an new opportunity.
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Also, taken from Clide's twitter :
@clidekj Hankyujong
Dirty Cash
4 hours ago via web
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Pff who's left in TSL now? 4 of their top players left ze team o.o
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I have absolutely no idea why anyone would criticize EG over this. Either Puma didn't have a meaningful contract with TSL or he had one and it sucked. He was offered the choice to leave and play for another team and he chose to do so. How is that "shady" behavior from EG? Who cares if they approached the player directly or not - it's TSL's fault if they wrote a poor contract with their star player. What does EG owe to TSL? If this move bothers you somehow (not that I see why it would) then you should be criticizing Puma, not the team that simply made him a better offer.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
On July 21 2011 21:29 Sbrubbles wrote:
What's really dirty is TSL not paying PuMa enough to stay in Korea.
If they really invested a lot in him (financially), then they really should have hired a better lawyer to draft the player contracts.
It only appears dirty if you look at it from the foreign scene perspective, which has more money than both sense & talent at the moment. It could be possible TSL do not have the financial means to pay their players the type of money EG has and were relying on the success and marketability of players like PuMa to keep them from folding.
After hearing that the fOu team were worrying about how to actually feed themselves before FXO bought them it puts the poaching of players in a different light tbh.
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On July 21 2011 15:25 confusedcrib wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 15:12 Ruscour wrote:On July 21 2011 15:10 Flowjo wrote:
Sigh, EG just train Incontrol to be the next champ of......... oh , makes sense why they got Puma lol their team in an honest perspective has all tier 2 players execpt Idra DeMuslim is okay. Axslav flies under the radar but he's okay. EG's main failures are iNcontroL and Machine, have they ever actually done well in anything...ever? I have no idea where you got this from. Let me look something up for you: Demuslim: Winner IEM Europe, Warcraft 3 background Axslav: 4th Place IPL, War3 background iNcontroL: 4th Place MLG Dallas, 1st place WCG USA 2007 Machine: 4th Place SC reddit invitational, 6th Place MLG Dallas, 2008 4th place WCG USA No idea why I just spent so much time disproving a random flamer, but as you can see, if anything, Machine and iNcontroL have posted better results then Demuslim and Axslav, which you were apparently very ignorant to. As for the Puma acquisition, I really hope that that is not TSL's official stance, EG has every right to court Puma without going through the coaches, it's not like they own him.
Especially as it was wasted time. LOL are you actually quoting 4 year old BW achievements as things that Inc and Machine have achieved? In that case go look up what Demuslim won whilst playing War3, he has won online cups in Europe tooat SC2 and had many more better place finishes.
The only thing that Inc and Machine have done is finish high in 1, 16 man double elim tournament in over a year and not even consistenly produced, Inc wil be out of NASL and MLG before the end of the year IMO and Machine too.
The unusual format of MLG protects players and Inc wasn't even good enough to get into the top 16 after all of last years MLG's, he was ranked 18th and got a free pass as jinro and Huk didnt come back. He may well be lucky again because of the format and the fact that Koreans who have come previously will probably not come to each one allowing the free ranking points they get for starting in the top 16 to inflate their positions.
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On July 21 2011 21:32 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 21:29 jenzebubble wrote:On July 21 2011 21:26 Jonas wrote:Really good for EG, Really good for Puma, Really bad for TSL, Really good for foreign eSports That's really all there is to say on the topic.Also: I'm fucking pumped. hahha How is this good for foreign esports? It's good for foreigner teams, but foreigner players may find themselves quickly out of work. If you're EG and you have the money to put together a package that is attractive to Puma, why aren't you floating said package to 3-4 other Koreans right now? If you're complexity or sixjax, don't you have to do the same to keep up? Practice more. If koreans can stay at a high level while outside of korea, then it means that foreigners are not practicing enough to earn their pay. If it turns out korean's CAN'T keep their skill level outside of korea, then foreigner esports will die regardless.
agreed. players who work less hard might lose their spots? that's great cause that's how the world works.
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On July 21 2011 21:34 starmeat_ wrote:
SC2, where the talent gets bought out and lost.
EG, working together to help destroy SC2.
YAY, I have new SC2 and EG slogans!
Side note, I will go out of my way to avoid ALL corporations sponsoring EG. ALL OF THEM!
Silly boy.. Who are you?
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 21 2011 21:21 Cartel wrote:
Some very on point comments by the people who are against the EG signing. Yes Puma owes something to TSL. Yes EG was very unethical for approaching Puma on their own.
Lets put it this way.
Imagine you are there, at NASL, the final event. And you know for a fact that PUMA is contracted to TSL, who spent their own money to fly him over there, and due to his success they must have spent a lot of money investing in him (team house, food, equipment, coaching, player connections, practice partners, salary etc..), and you as a team (EG) approaches him quietly to say "hey, would you like to come join our team? Lets talk about it more. Here's our number, call us" - behind the backs of the team coach. That my friends, is damn DIIIRTY.
Imagine you are a TSL player playing an EG player in that very same tournament and the EG player decides to "bring" some units to your base. Does the TSL player let him in? Or kill him without mercy or die trying. Serious what do you think this is? This is competition and business mixed together if you don't like someone doing something, you do something about it, or you shut up and take it. The fact of the matter is that Puma was an underrated and most likely under-payed ScBw progamer (before he was on TSL), and it was HIS decision to leave. EG and TSL have no obligations towards each other and they don't even have to pretend to like each other.
If anything the manager of TSL is a little butt-hurt because his team isn't as successful as many would have thought by now. Puma owes TSL for what exactly? He's been as much of their success as anyone except FruitDealer (who has done nothing lately). What exactly is EG supposed to do in that situation. Call the TSL manager and tell him you are offering his player more money and more opportunities? Yeah I'm sure that would go over well. Instead they had Puma go home and talk about with his team. Probably the right call since Puma knows them better and actually speaks Korean.
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On July 21 2011 21:29 Cheebah wrote:
... I can't imagine his reaction when he'll reach the top of the NA ladder and realize how mediocre the skill level is compared to korea... or when he'll realize he can maintain a >90% win ratio in practice games in EG's house...
Some people don't play the game because it's fun. If he was offered a higher sum of money, accepted it, then there are a couple things that could be going on.
1. Something is going on under the covers of TSL that no one knows about, and PUMA IS RUNNING AWAY FROM IT (cute, right?).
2. It seems like he's leaving Korea, no? Don't you think he would've considered what accepting the EG contract actually meant? Leaving home? Going to a country, not knowing the language that they speak at all? Leaving his former friends and teammates behind?
On the bright side, Puma would be good for the team, and maybe he just wants to play IdrA really bad and stomp him, like every other Korean wants to (lol). The experience he'd share with everyone from EG would be extraordinary.
But what's really bugging me right now is what Sir Scoots is saying on his twitter. I'm not trying to advertise twitter atm, but he's accusing people of not fact checking. This is completely different from the idea that Puma plays or doesn't play for EG now, mind you.
brb, taking a 6 hour nap, letting all this blow over...
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Puma skill level is going to get worse. He is good because he has good teamate. Who is he going to train with? InControl? Axslav? Idra ( the only one with dcent skill...). Lol.
EG jsut made a dick move, congrats. And they were talking yesterday with the SK manager, hahaha.
A loose/loose situation, imho. EG goodwill going down, Puma's skill going to fall, and TSL is angry.
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On July 21 2011 21:34 starmeat_ wrote:
SC2, where the talent gets bought out and lost.
EG, working together to help destroy SC2.
YAY, I have new SC2 and EG slogans!
Side note, I will go out of my way to avoid ALL corporations sponsoring EG. ALL OF THEM!
Not that i agree or disagree with your whole "avoid all corporations!" mentality but if you're really that gungho about it, just start a damn petition or send emails to the corporations about your displeasure. boycotts are always so stupid ):
have fun avoiding your intel chips.
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LOL at people judging the deal based completely on Western standards of morality and considering other standards of morality invalid.
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On July 21 2011 21:32 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 21:29 jenzebubble wrote:On July 21 2011 21:26 Jonas wrote:Really good for EG, Really good for Puma, Really bad for TSL, Really good for foreign eSports That's really all there is to say on the topic.Also: I'm fucking pumped. hahha How is this good for foreign esports? It's good for foreigner teams, but foreigner players may find themselves quickly out of work. If you're EG and you have the money to put together a package that is attractive to Puma, why aren't you floating said package to 3-4 other Koreans right now? If you're complexity or sixjax, don't you have to do the same to keep up? Practice more. If koreans can stay at a high level while outside of korea, then it means that foreigners are not practicing enough to earn their pay. If it turns out korean's CAN'T keep their skill level outside of korea, then foreigner esports will die regardless.
I see this logic all the time. It's not as simple as practicing more. The infrastructure just does not exist, at the moment, outside of Korea. You realize the players that we are all talking about in two years, are no names now, right? Korean ladder is much harder. Playing on the Korean ladder forces you to be a better player. Top professionals with access to NA/EU and KR all have said that. Sure there will be outliers, but the bulk of professionals in SC2 will be from Korea for the foreseeable future. CatZ argument, about needing to invest in the development of NA players, would fit in nicely here.
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I think you're all forgetting the thing here...EVERYONE keeps saying "This is great for Puma, but..."
WHY BUT!?
Isn't what Puma wants the most important thing here? HE choose to do what HE thought was best, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS x.X;
This community is freaking awful....
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EPT
