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On July 08 2011 10:13 shaman6ix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:56 mordk wrote:On July 08 2011 09:38 Hnnngg wrote:On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation. On July 08 2011 09:38 j4ckd4v13z wrote:On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings. ^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ? You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama) You both miss the point. MC didn't mean to insult idra. His idea was to ignite the crowd with some sillyness. Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you", considering the context?? Hahahahaha that's just crazy. It's the same reason he high fives the crowd and dances in a chair in the middle of the stage. Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show. He also gave the finger to HuK in previous MLG's without the slightest provoking. The context makes it an insult. MC's stunts = Showmanship Idra's gestures = Just bad blood. It's a HUGE difference. It's like comparing scoring a goal and celebrating by waving your shirt with scoring a goal and celebrating by screaming it in the face of the receiving goalkeeper. The latter is fined and penalized, very harshly in some leagues. And yeah, I agree Idra gets lots of attention with these things, I just fail to see how that is attractive to anyone except for WWE fans, and I wouldn't like SC2 to go the WWE way, we'll have players setting up scenarios and such things "for the show". That'd be terrible. don't try to hard, you'll not convince them anyway. once they put their zerg and/or nationalistic mask on, everything is pointless
Facepalm is pointless.
Fuck. Seriously.
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On July 08 2011 10:07 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:56 mordk wrote:On July 08 2011 09:38 Hnnngg wrote:On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation. On July 08 2011 09:38 j4ckd4v13z wrote:On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings. ^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ? You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama) You both miss the point. MC didn't mean to insult idra. His idea was to ignite the crowd with some sillyness. Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you"?? Hahahahaha that's just crazy. It's the same reason he high fives the crowd and dances in a chair in the middle of the stage. Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show. He also gave the finger to HuK in previous MLG's without the slightest provoking. MC's stunts = Showmanship Idra's gestures = Just bad blood. It's a HUGE difference. It's like comparing scoring a goal and celebrating by waving your shirt with scoring a goal and celebrating by screaming it in the face of the receiving goalkeeper. The latter is fined and penalized, very harshly in some leagues. And yeah, I agree Idra gets lots of attention with these things, I just fail to see how that is attractive to anyone except for WWE fans, and I wouldn't like SC2 to go the WWE way, we'll have players setting up scenarios and such things "for the show". That'd be terrible. The problem is that you terribly generalize the situation. Human motives can be very complex, as can be human personality. Very often personalities and motives are incomparably more complex than what we think they are. "Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show." This is complete bullshit. Stuff like this is contextual and situational. There are so many different possibilities, different situations, different ways of expressing it, so many different meanings that giving the finger can have, so many different meanings that can have a very positive overtone. Yet, here you are, telling us that giving the finger has this ONE and ONLY meaning that just applies to any situation. THANK YOU for establishing THE DEFINITION of THE MEANING of GIVING THE FINGER. I guess it will help everyone, particularly in extinguishing sensless disagreements about personal interpretations, and this utterly unbearable idea of applying intelligence instead of iron rules and definitions to solve such problems. THANK YOU <3 !!!
No I didn't, read again, I edited that part  . Just like you say, it's contextual. The context in which it happened makes it bad.
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oh dear. please do not censor starcraft 2. the bm and all that jazz brings out the competitiveness and rivalry in sc2. i am glad that most of TL thinks that BM is okay.
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Oh, someone edited something so I guess I will as well.
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NO!
Let the viewers and fans decide if they like or dislike certain behaviour. Not the organisations!
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Breaking contracts = Bad, and should be fined
Players refusing to censor themselves, and saying whatever they want = good and should be encouraged
I am personalty of the belief that if someone is so emotionally and mentally immature that a word can offend then then they need to get a grip on reality, and grow up.
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I don't care which sport you play, you'll almost always have BM between players. Difference is they mouth it near each other on the pitch/field/court, they don't typ it out for all their fans to see. If you would fine NFL players for the words in a huddle you'd probably have a bankrupt league in no time 
Let it be while it lasts, if this game will actually be as big as people hope (not expect); the censor will follow soon enough. Thats the downside of popularity, you gotta conform to more people - and people are represented by organisations sad enough.
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It seems the op is taking things out of their environment and context. All of the examples of idra using bm are in game. Have you ever been near anything NFL? This would be like fining playes for swearing during a game. Players don't get fined for what they say to each other. There is some serious nasty that comes out. I can't count the amount of times i've seen a swear word shown on tv. No you can't hear it but anybody who knows how to see knows exactly what is being said.
This would be different is Idras bm crossed over into the public realm. does he swear at the fans? Is he flipping off fans? He is a fierce competitor and lets his emotions get the better of him. That doesn't mean he should be fined for things that occur in game or related to the game. Where do you draw the line. there are a lot of examples of bm, some are more offensive depending on which culture you come from as well. So should there be different rules depending on where the tournament is held or where the players are from? Are players in the same tourney allowed to exhibit different bm if they are from different countries? Is an early gg a finable offense. An early gg is much worse in some players minds than any string of obscentites that you could string together.
There just isn't a place for it yet.
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On July 08 2011 10:34 bigbadgreen wrote:
It seems the op is taking things out of their environment and context. All of the examples of idra using bm are in game. Have you ever been near anything NFL? This would be like fining playes for swearing during a game. Players don't get fined for what they say to each other. There is some serious nasty that comes out. I can't count the amount of times i've seen a swear word shown on tv. No you can't hear it but anybody who knows how to see knows exactly what is being said.
This would be different is Idras bm crossed over into the public realm. does he swear at the fans? Is he flipping off fans? He is a fierce competitor and lets his emotions get the better of him. That doesn't mean he should be fined for things that occur in game or related to the game. Where do you draw the line. there are a lot of examples of bm, some are more offensive depending on which culture you come from as well. So should there be different rules depending on where the tournament is held or where the players are from? Are players in the same tourney allowed to exhibit different bm if they are from different countries? Is an early gg a finable offense. An early gg is much worse in some players minds than any string of obscentites that you could string together.
There just isn't a place for it yet.
An early GG is definitely much worse than the BM, doesn't mean Idra's BM is not bad.
Actually, saying Idra is a fierce competitor is a travesty. A fierce competitor would never GG like idra does. DRG/MMA/MVP are fierce competitors, who will fight to the last second.
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On July 08 2011 10:37 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 10:34 bigbadgreen wrote:
It seems the op is taking things out of their environment and context. All of the examples of idra using bm are in game. Have you ever been near anything NFL? This would be like fining playes for swearing during a game. Players don't get fined for what they say to each other. There is some serious nasty that comes out. I can't count the amount of times i've seen a swear word shown on tv. No you can't hear it but anybody who knows how to see knows exactly what is being said.
This would be different is Idras bm crossed over into the public realm. does he swear at the fans? Is he flipping off fans? He is a fierce competitor and lets his emotions get the better of him. That doesn't mean he should be fined for things that occur in game or related to the game. Where do you draw the line. there are a lot of examples of bm, some are more offensive depending on which culture you come from as well. So should there be different rules depending on where the tournament is held or where the players are from? Are players in the same tourney allowed to exhibit different bm if they are from different countries? Is an early gg a finable offense. An early gg is much worse in some players minds than any string of obscentites that you could string together.
There just isn't a place for it yet. An early GG is definitely much worse than the BM, doesn't mean Idra's BM is not bad. Actually, saying Idra is a fierce competitor is a travesty. A fierce competitor would never GG like idra does. DRG/MMA/MVP are fierce competitors, who will fight to the last second.
you left out boxer, he'll continue to fight as long as he has 1 scv and 400 minerals. ^,.^;;
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There's a difference in BM and just trash/smack talk to get in your opponents heads, look at every professional sporting event out there everyone and there mother is talking smack trying to get other people thrown off their games. Dont get me wrong there are people who take it to far and penalties ensue.
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Can someone explain what ta hell is the point of this discussion? The companies and teams are the ones who arbitrate what's acceptable behavior and what isn't based on their perception of the market's sensibilities. Who cares what some random people on forums deem "bad for ESPORTS." Don't worry, people vote with their money and eyes.
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On July 08 2011 10:34 bigbadgreen wrote:
It seems the op is taking things out of their environment and context. All of the examples of idra using bm are in game. Have you ever been near anything NFL? This would be like fining playes for swearing during a game. Players don't get fined for what they say to each other. There is some serious nasty that comes out. I can't count the amount of times i've seen a swear word shown on tv. No you can't hear it but anybody who knows how to see knows exactly what is being said.
There's an obvious difference, anything said in chat between players is also shown on the stream, for everyone to see.
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I love BM so much it makes me happy in the pants.
I'd hate to have to watch an inferior e-sport just to get my BM fix if all BM was removed from SC2.
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Yay fantastic thread.
Another person who thinks sucking the fun out of the game will actually make it bigger, sigh.
Not how it works, random people arent going to think "well i dont get it but these people seem serious and no nonsense so i might get interested." It needs to be fun, have personalities, rivalries and some trash talking to spark peoples interest.
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I referee soccer games, and if a player tells me or another player to "fuck off", that's one of the easiest red cards i can throw. They are using abusive language? They're don't need to be around the game anymore.
I do think gaming leagues should hold their players to a professional etiquette; these are the players we look up to. In a similar manner to any other sport, I wouldn't want a pro athlete in baseball/football swearing and getting away with it "because it is funny/entertaining" or "encourages rivalry". Do the yankees-redsox publicly swear and act bad mannered at eachother? No. And when they do, they're fined/suspended however deemed fit. Bottom line for me is, these players are putting themselves out in public. They should act like the adults they are, and respect their opponents like they do their best friends/family.
PS- there's plenty of BM on ladders. If you want your fill of it, go play there
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On July 08 2011 11:03 RedBack wrote:
Yay fantastic thread.
Another person who thinks sucking the fun out of the game will actually make it bigger, sigh.
Not how it works, random people arent going to think "well i dont get it but these people seem serious and no nonsense so i might get interested." It needs to be fun, have personalities, rivalries and some trash talking to spark peoples interest.
I don't see how people equate personality, rivalry, and some trash talking to BM. I'm not saying players should just be mindless playing husks. There's a huge difference between what you're referencing and actually insulting another competitor directly, or insulting the crowd.
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Not really, sure there are lines you shouldnt cross with things you say.
But to think outlawing bm and this sort of stuff is going to make any difference to growing anything is ridiculous. No more people are going to become interested if it becomes more 'proffesional" whatever that actually means.
All you will do is dilute the experience for people who already enjoy it. When the game becomes so big that major media are reporting everything the players say, maybe then you can start worrying about bm.
Sure a big time sport has to be moderated heavily because its beeing watched and scrutinised by everyone. But never forget its the spats, fights etc that happen once in a while that have people taling about it at work the next day.
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On July 08 2011 10:31 Loxley wrote:I don't care which sport you play, you'll almost always have BM between players. Difference is they mouth it near each other on the pitch/field/court, they don't typ it out for all their fans to see. If you would fine NFL players for the words in a huddle you'd probably have a bankrupt league in no time Let it be while it lasts, if this game will actually be as big as people hope (not expect); the censor will follow soon enough. Thats the downside of popularity, you gotta conform to more people - and people are represented by organisations sad enough.
The video of IdrA flipping MC off from MLG has 88,000 views. The FINALS of the very same tournament has 44,000 views.
People love BM, I'm sorry that you don't and that you're under the delusion that the majority of people don't, but the view count speaks for itself. The finals of MLG was AWESOME... there was no reason for a SC2 fan to skip those games. Twice as many people watched IdrA throw the finger to MC than people watched MMA vs Losira.... That's a big deal.
Advertisers want viewers. BM brings viewers.
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BM is part of the game. Also I believe it was in some NASL cast where incontrol was talking about the language people use. A lot of the words gamers use have a bad connotation but they dont really mean it. Racist comments and bad words are just a part of a gamers life and the game. If you dont like it, maybe you should turn on the mature language filter, which blizzard actually defaults as the option I believe.
Also, Idra's BM gives him SOOO much attention. He is crazy good yes, but his name is mentioned more than Nestea in a regular sc2 chat. Look at his fan club, Posts- 16650 Views- 3082958. Whether or not he does BM on purpose, hes getting all the attention.
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EPT
