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Personally, I enjoy the quality of games, I enjoy the stories they create by playing, not by talking trash. Players like BoxeR, MooN or Grubby are what can make e-sports great. Great manners, respect for opponents, intelligence and insane SKILL. These are the players that should be graced, not the likes of Idra, who just whines, and to top it off, just loses.
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
-Examples of paragons of gaming, which should be replicated by every other gaming: Boxer, White-Ra, Moon, Grubby
-Examples of players with showmanship, who make healthy FUN: MC, Keen, Firebathero in BW.
-Examples of players with terrible attitude, who should be fined and shut up: Idra, Lalush.
I actually don't understand why people like this whole "drama" thing so much. Drama is generated by the games, the clash of skill, the great level in gameplay. A "sport" that relies on "drama" to be successful can only be considered amateurish at best, look at WWE for a direct reference.
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On July 08 2011 09:13 alexanderzero wrote:
I think pro gamers should BM all they want on ladder, or in real life or whatever. However, I feel like SC2's audience might be diminished by people cussing each other out in-game during a tournament. It's only going to take a prudish parent seeing that one time to tell their kid they can't watch pro SC2 any more.
Then their little shit shouldn't be watching SC2 if the parents can handle them hearing some fucking words.
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On July 08 2011 08:22 bkrow wrote:
I honestly do not understand what this proves!? There is no point in proving THAT IT HAPPENS because obviously it does.
But how on earth is this possibly a good thing for this players reputation, or any sponsors associated with him? It quite simply isn't. So yes - swearing happens in other sports but it is certainly not a positive thing
Neither player was fined.
In the latter case, Charles Barkley went on to do a famous set of 'I am not a role model' commercials for Nike, his largest sponsor.
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On July 08 2011 09:18 Sernen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:14 Hnnngg wrote:On July 08 2011 09:13 alexanderzero wrote:
I think pro gamers should BM all they want on ladder, or in real life or whatever. However, I feel like SC2's audience might be diminished by people cussing each other out in-game during a tournament. It's only going to take a prudish parent seeing that one time to tell their kid they can't watch pro SC2 any more. Kids shouldn't be watching, this game is rated T for teen. Well, someone could make an all christian league where you hold prayer groups for players and viewers before and/or after each match, I'm sure kids would LOVE that. Naturally any type of BM or foul language would be outlawed in this league, failing to not follow the guidelines would a result in the player being quickly banished to hell, where he would burn for all eternity for his terrible crimes against humanity.
Yes. The community DEFINETELY needs to care most about that kind of parents and audience ! So much so, as to even adjust rules for people who devote their lifes to e-sports, just for them. Yes, for they are the rightful ones, their wisdom shines so brightly, so much so that they even understand the disastrous consequences of situations in which a kid hears a curse word, they also understand what wonders manifest when they manage to protect the kid from a foul language !
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I don't like BM but I don't see any valid reason to stop it other than my dislike. I don't have a right to not be offended so I voted pro.
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On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation.
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On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
^ This is just stupid.
-MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited
- How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ?
You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama)
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On July 08 2011 00:32 coL.drewbie wrote:
players aren't allowed to chat in game, I got in trouble for chatting with HuK at MLG Dallas when we were playing a seeding match and bnet was lagging really hard.
Really? That's stupid. Then HuK should get in trouble for chatting in game. MLG Dallas was so awful though. We had to pause for about 5-7 minutes then 5 or 6 more times after that. When the game resumed, I honestly forgot what was actually going on in the game.
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Tiger Woods is the ultimate counter example. His portrayal in the media from 1996 until November 2009 was completely false. Every comment, every interview was crafted and unrealistic. The only real Tiger was the guy playing on the course. Professionalism is complete inhuman shit, the only reason you could possibly justify it is the money. As a fan, no way do I ever want to give up the raw unedited candidness we have now for trite public relation platitudes.
My question is why should the players adjust? This is not TV this is the internet, always one copy and paste from "2girls1cup". We are the highly sought after male 18-35 spectrum, advertisers and media should endulge us, not the other way around. Do you love Tyler's "Stride, if you don't give a shit", comment, I do.
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BM is half the reason people watch players like Idra and the old firebathero before he went to Ace and lost his soul  ......without bm starcraft wouldn't be starcraft. Yes, Idra typing "fuck off" in the middle of an mlg match with tens of thousands of viewer might be going too far, but that doesn't mean bm is a bad thing. Watching pros do ceremonies, MC bm everybody he plays, and things like the smiley face cruncher typed to Idra in TSL3 makes watching SC2 so much more fun.
If we're going with the NFL connection, Idra is alot like thet Jets, and yes, there are alot of people who hate the Jets, but the Jets and their trash talking doesn't hurt the NFL at all, in fact it helps increase views.
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On July 08 2011 09:38 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation.
On July 08 2011 09:38 j4ckd4v13z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings. ^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ? You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama)
You both miss the point. MC didn't mean to insult idra. His idea was to ignite the crowd with some sillyness. Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you", considering the context?? Hahahahaha that's just crazy. It's the same reason he high fives the crowd and dances in a chair in the middle of the stage.
Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show. He also gave the finger to HuK in previous MLG's without the slightest provoking. The context makes it an insult.
MC's stunts = Showmanship
Idra's gestures = Just bad blood.
It's a HUGE difference. It's like comparing scoring a goal and celebrating by waving your shirt with scoring a goal and celebrating by screaming it in the face of the receiving goalkeeper. The latter is fined and penalized, very harshly in some leagues.
And yeah, I agree Idra gets lots of attention with these things, I just fail to see how that is attractive to anyone except for WWE fans, and I wouldn't like SC2 to go the WWE way, we'll have players setting up scenarios and such things "for the show". That'd be terrible.
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On July 08 2011 09:38 j4ckd4v13z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings. ^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ? You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama)
Yes ! Another brilliant visionarie ! Thank you, we need personal definitions to be imposed on us, this is enlightening !
Now I finally realize that throat slashing gesture is all right but middle finger is not ! I will no longer have to care about any context, situation, meaning and all that bothersome stuff, for I have YOUR WORD. Throat slashing is fine, middle finger is just wrong and if anyone will ever disagree with me about that, he/she will be wrong, for these are completely different things and carry different meanings.
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apparently you can't make a case in a place where people interpret the throat-slushing motion as 'decapitation' and 'im going to kill you'
who knew?
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On July 08 2011 09:56 mordk wrote:
Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you"??
Don't take IdrA's gesture literally then, he could've meant "Leave me alone"
Sure he doesn't do "creative" gestures but that goes with his "i don't give a shit" attitude. A lot of people clearly like this.
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Your poll is misleading. Just because I think that players shouldn't be fined for what they say doesn't mean I'm "pro" bm, it just means I'm not against it.
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In addition to the arguments of the OP (though they might be listed somewhere in the long list of comments, I confess I didn't take the time to read them all), I feel that it must be said that BM, while certainly inciting drama, detracts from esports' chances of becoming mainstream by reinforcing the stereotype of the "angry nerd in his mom's basement."
I personally am ambivalent regarding Idra's behavior, there are both obvious pros and cons. However, For the sake of the growth of esports, I agree with the OP that maturity and professionalism need to be injected into esports so they will meet the expectations of the non-gaming public who will compare them to more mainstream sports.
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On July 08 2011 09:56 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:38 Hnnngg wrote:On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation. Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:38 j4ckd4v13z wrote:On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings. ^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ? You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama) You both miss the point. MC didn't mean to insult idra. His idea was to ignite the crowd with some sillyness. Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you", considering the context?? Hahahahaha that's just crazy. It's the same reason he high fives the crowd and dances in a chair in the middle of the stage. Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show. He also gave the finger to HuK in previous MLG's without the slightest provoking. The context makes it an insult. MC's stunts = Showmanship Idra's gestures = Just bad blood. It's a HUGE difference. It's like comparing scoring a goal and celebrating by waving your shirt with scoring a goal and celebrating by screaming it in the face of the receiving goalkeeper. The latter is fined and penalized, very harshly in some leagues. And yeah, I agree Idra gets lots of attention with these things, I just fail to see how that is attractive to anyone except for WWE fans, and I wouldn't like SC2 to go the WWE way, we'll have players setting up scenarios and such things "for the show". That'd be terrible.
"Who the hell in their right mind takes the middle finger as a literal "Fuck you"."
Either take things literally or not, you can't do both.
And MC is taking it to WWE standards, throat slashes? Come on, cheesy as shit WWE bullcrap. Kamehameha from MMA? Woooooow. Completely fake and unrealistic, the only thing they're missing is tanned and oiled bodies with a douchey haircut. The difference is that IdrA is real, he doesn't do things for show. MC and MMA are showing off their fake bullcrap, Idra acts like a human being and not a cartoon.
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On July 08 2011 09:56 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:38 Hnnngg wrote:On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation. Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:38 j4ckd4v13z wrote:On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings. ^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ? You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama) You both miss the point. MC didn't mean to insult idra. His idea was to ignite the crowd with some sillyness. Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you"?? Hahahahaha that's just crazy. It's the same reason he high fives the crowd and dances in a chair in the middle of the stage. Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show. He also gave the finger to HuK in previous MLG's without the slightest provoking. MC's stunts = Showmanship Idra's gestures = Just bad blood. It's a HUGE difference. It's like comparing scoring a goal and celebrating by waving your shirt with scoring a goal and celebrating by screaming it in the face of the receiving goalkeeper. The latter is fined and penalized, very harshly in some leagues. And yeah, I agree Idra gets lots of attention with these things, I just fail to see how that is attractive to anyone except for WWE fans, and I wouldn't like SC2 to go the WWE way, we'll have players setting up scenarios and such things "for the show". That'd be terrible.
The problem is that you terribly generalize the situation. Human motives can be very complex, as can be human personality. Very often personalities and motives are incomparably more complex than what we think they are.
"Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show."
This is complete bullshit. Stuff like this is contextual and situational. There are so many different possibilities, different situations, different ways of expressing it, so many different meanings that giving the finger can have, so many different meanings that can have a very positive overtone.
Yet, here you are, telling us that giving the finger has this ONE and ONLY meaning that just applies to any situation.
THANK YOU for establishing THE DEFINITION of THE MEANING of GIVING THE FINGER. I guess it will help everyone, particularly in extinguishing sensless disagreements about personal interpretations, and this utterly unbearable idea of applying intelligence instead of iron rules and definitions to solve such problems. THANK YOU <3 !!!
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On July 08 2011 09:56 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:38 Hnnngg wrote:On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation. Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:38 j4ckd4v13z wrote:On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings. ^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ? You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama) You both miss the point. MC didn't mean to insult idra. His idea was to ignite the crowd with some sillyness. Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you", considering the context?? Hahahahaha that's just crazy. It's the same reason he high fives the crowd and dances in a chair in the middle of the stage. Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show. He also gave the finger to HuK in previous MLG's without the slightest provoking. The context makes it an insult. MC's stunts = Showmanship Idra's gestures = Just bad blood. It's a HUGE difference. It's like comparing scoring a goal and celebrating by waving your shirt with scoring a goal and celebrating by screaming it in the face of the receiving goalkeeper. The latter is fined and penalized, very harshly in some leagues. And yeah, I agree Idra gets lots of attention with these things, I just fail to see how that is attractive to anyone except for WWE fans, and I wouldn't like SC2 to go the WWE way, we'll have players setting up scenarios and such things "for the show". That'd be terrible.
don't try to hard, you'll not convince them anyway. once they put their zerg and/or nationalistic mask on, everything is pointless
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On July 08 2011 10:04 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:56 mordk wrote:On July 08 2011 09:38 Hnnngg wrote:On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation. On July 08 2011 09:38 j4ckd4v13z wrote:On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote:
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings. ^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ? You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama) You both miss the point. MC didn't mean to insult idra. His idea was to ignite the crowd with some sillyness. Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you", considering the context?? Hahahahaha that's just crazy. It's the same reason he high fives the crowd and dances in a chair in the middle of the stage. Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show. He also gave the finger to HuK in previous MLG's without the slightest provoking. The context makes it an insult. MC's stunts = Showmanship Idra's gestures = Just bad blood. It's a HUGE difference. It's like comparing scoring a goal and celebrating by waving your shirt with scoring a goal and celebrating by screaming it in the face of the receiving goalkeeper. The latter is fined and penalized, very harshly in some leagues. And yeah, I agree Idra gets lots of attention with these things, I just fail to see how that is attractive to anyone except for WWE fans, and I wouldn't like SC2 to go the WWE way, we'll have players setting up scenarios and such things "for the show". That'd be terrible. "Who the hell in their right mind takes the middle finger as a literal "Fuck you"." Either take things literally or not, you can't do both. And MC is taking it to WWE standards, throat slashes? Come on, cheesy as shit WWE bullcrap. Kamehameha from MMA? Woooooow. Completely fake and unrealistic, the only thing they're missing is tanned and oiled bodies with a douchey haircut. The difference is that IdrA is real, he doesn't do things for show. MC and MMA are showing off their fake bullcrap, Idra acts like a human being and not a cartoon.
Idra acts like a cartoon of a player you mean, quitting in the middle of the game and destroying both the observer's possibility of watching a possible comeback and the competition itself. If MC and MMA show off their fake bullcrap, they at least do so outside of the game. THE GAME AND SKILL IS WHAT MATTERS (Or what should matter, at least), Idra makes his "efame" by being a dick inside and outside of the game, and doesn't even deliver quality games anymore (for the most part, sometimes he actually does).
I don't care if players do goofy stuff to light up the crowd if they give their best when they play, play it until the very end and show incredible skill, it makes it funnier. When a player starts insulting other players outside of the game to vent his own frustration, it's just bad.
About the gestures, it's the context that makes the gesture. If I'm joking around with my friend and he lashes up his middle finger, it doesn't matter at all. If an unknown individual flashes his middle finger after being clowned out in the middle of a gaming competition, it's a different thing. "Throat slashing" in that context is just ridiculous nonsense, Idra's face and gesture say a different thing, I could be wrong in this case though, but the point stands.
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EPT
