On July 08 2011 07:23 Doodsmack wrote: Your suggestion that teams and other organizations should go straight to court when they have a problem is kind of silly. We all know that lawsuits take a very long time to go to trial, are very expensive, and 9 times out of 10 result in settlement anyway. Not to mention the bad blood and scare tactics that they entail. You propose an extreme and highly impractical solution to the stated problem of the lack of professionalism in esports. I think you should be a little more reasonable.
He did not say that should be the absolute first response; he said that this must be an option and in the case of SK and Fnatic may be the only remaining solution. If the money involved in esports and particularly player contracts increase as they probably will then legal avenues must be considered in all cases. It's simply logical and there really is nothing to argue about. The OP is talking about taking a hard line against actions that bring the league, player or sponsors into disrepute. Court should be the very last FINAL option, but it should be an option.
On July 08 2011 07:15 aFF.TEEN wrote: Reading stuff like this makes me lose faith in humanity. Professsionalism is a bullshit concept.
What have you proven with your post? Maybe add a 'why' or a 'how' or even just more than your one liner that you pressed the enter key in between to make it sort of look like a decent post. How is professionalism a bullshit concept!? Maybe in a world where we all sit in our basements rocking out for 12 hours playing LoL - sure then professionalism is total bs. But how about when there are sponsors involved? Or leagues trying to obtain extra funding? There are mainstream sponsors that will not associate themselves with negative activity.
There are usually two points of view - those who feel that this is esports, we are unique and deal with it - and then there is the "if we want to go mainstream we have to shape up." Luckily there is a happy medium; there are ways to be "BM" without being a complete dick; i.e. MMA's ceremony at MLG was not overtly rude but merely a crowd pleasing taunt.
There is always a "bad boy" in any sport; so i don't particularly care, but it's when that behaviour becomes allowable and is then reproduced by other players that it becomes a problem. If you break the rules, you suffer the consequences. And all the examples of swearing or BM in other sports is pretty hilarious; congratulations - you proved that they have happened - but none of those situations actually cast that sport in a positive light?
cant agree with this more. i like to see ceremonies, i want to hear players honest opinions of other players even when their very negative but i dont want to hear simple "fuck you"s it degrades the competition.
that said i sware alot, every day. but i know when to not sware in front of my family in public or when im doing work or in other scenarios when adults should know not to. when someone represents themselves only you can do whatever, when you represent other people you should not make them look bad.
Think about it this way... In RL sports, there is still a fair share of trash talk, and what we would call "BM", but that hasn't stopped the industries from becoming exceedingly successful. In fact, there are moments where these acts actually bring in more viewers (ie. fights in hockey, dirty play in soccer) I don't think there is a huge problem in terms of "disrespect" and "BM" in sc2, and e-sports in general. It is the player's decision as to how to act, and their responsibility to take whatever consequence ensues.
On July 08 2011 07:31 TheGreenBee wrote: I want real emotions, real personalities, and real interview answers from pro players, not some $$ forced PC bullshit.
you don't get it, do you? real personalities that attract the crowds and bring tons of entairtenment to the scene are those of the koreans for example (watch MC). Idra's is real as well but at the same time highly immature - it's just something that is plain negative, it has no positive side to it at all. would you pay to watch a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormons? I wouldn't. I would pay however to watch MC's entertaining ceremonies.
Anything that scares sponsors away from ESPORTS can be seen as hurting ESPORTS as a whole. If a sponsor gives a team money, only to have said team's star player randomly up and leave with little to no consequence, I can totally understand that company never investing in ESPORTS again. Other companies would probably be dubious about the prospect as well.
Then the article just jumps in to BM. They point out that it's not allowed in traditional sports, but they fail to provide any reasons. I'm no expert, but the two main reasons I can think of for traditional sports don't seem to apply to ESPORTS.
-It's not illegal to tell someone to go suck a bag of dicks. It is however very illegal to broadcast someone talking about a bag of dicks live on national television. That's a big part of why traditional sports have such hefty fines regarding player language, because their broadcasting partners get slammed with fines from the government at the slightest slip-up. Or nip slip. Or whatever. When SC2 is on prime time TV, maybe we can start talking about this seriously.
-Traditional sports involve highly athletic people (read: testosterone) and tend to include physical contact, some of which is painful. If some guy who's fouled you repeatedly and gotten away with it decides to pelvic thrust in your direction after scoring, it's not that unexpected for him to get punched in the face. In ESPORTS, the testosterone levels are lower, and players often aren't even in the same country as each other. The chance of BM turning into physical violence are almost zero. I'm sure it's happened, but I've certainly never heard about it at a tournament.
I'm ok with people BMing. I'll think less of them for it, and sponsors may look elsewhere, but if they want to do it I don't see any reason to censor them. Also, tournaments would be stupid to try to cut down on drama, drama is the most talked about part of any LAN.
On July 08 2011 07:31 TheGreenBee wrote: I want real emotions, real personalities, and real interview answers from pro players, not some $$ forced PC bullshit.
you don't get it, do you? real personalities that attract the crowds and bring tons of entairtenment to the scene are those of the koreans for example (watch MC). Idra's is real as well but at the same time highly immature - it's just something that is plain negative, it has no positive side to it at all. would you pay to watch a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormons? I wouldn't. I would pay however to watch MC's entertaining ceremonies.
So what are we arguing about? I don't see a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormones, where do we need to crack down?
One guy said, "Fuck off" and now the world is imploding? Just say, "Please don't do that." and if you have to keep warning him, then consider penalizing him. You say it's a plain negative, yet this guy has one of the largest fan followings in Starcraft 2 right now(granted, his fans can be pretty obnoxious).
So, give the players a warning, like they do now, and go on with your day, people aren't spewing cuss words and slurs all day long, it's not taking away from the competition or the sport.
On July 08 2011 07:31 TheGreenBee wrote: I want real emotions, real personalities, and real interview answers from pro players, not some $$ forced PC bullshit.
you don't get it, do you? real personalities that attract the crowds and bring tons of entairtenment to the scene are those of the koreans for example (watch MC). Idra's is real as well but at the same time highly immature - it's just something that is plain negative, it has no positive side to it at all. would you pay to watch a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormons? I wouldn't. I would pay however to watch MC's entertaining ceremonies.
Most people found MC's ceremony to be highly cheesy and dumb, if you read the LR thread.
You don't go up to a competitor in a public setting (idra was sitting in the crowd with his girlfriend) and taunt them, and expect "MANNERZ" back.
no, IdrA should have just ignored HuK speaking. saying fuck off is supremely idiotic and unprofessional. If IdrA wants to bm on ladder or his stream, good for his 'jackass' persona. But don't bring that shit to TL, MLG, TSL etc.
and people keep comparing IdrA to MC, the difference between them is simple MC says "He's good/great, but i'm better" IdrA says "he's trash, its gonna be a walkover win" and then proceeds to get destroyed (yay cruncher)
On July 08 2011 07:31 TheGreenBee wrote: I want real emotions, real personalities, and real interview answers from pro players, not some $$ forced PC bullshit.
you don't get it, do you? real personalities that attract the crowds and bring tons of entairtenment to the scene are those of the koreans for example (watch MC). Idra's is real as well but at the same time highly immature - it's just something that is plain negative, it has no positive side to it at all. would you pay to watch a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormons? I wouldn't. I would pay however to watch MC's entertaining ceremonies.
.... egging someone on when you know they'll have a "fiery" response is entertaining? sure sure. it's still called provoking.
also they are "friendly" with each other apparently from one of the fan club messages somewhere that I read (idra just goes along with it, MC just does all those ceremonies (although BM) for the fans.)
On July 08 2011 07:31 TheGreenBee wrote: I want real emotions, real personalities, and real interview answers from pro players, not some $$ forced PC bullshit.
you don't get it, do you? real personalities that attract the crowds and bring tons of entairtenment to the scene are those of the koreans for example (watch MC). Idra's is real as well but at the same time highly immature - it's just something that is plain negative, it has no positive side to it at all. would you pay to watch a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormons? I wouldn't. I would pay however to watch MC's entertaining ceremonies.
You'd pay to watch someone they just beat, stand in front of them waving their thumps up and down repeatedly and you'd call it entertaining? Watching MC do that stupid ceremony, desperately waiting for IdrA to look at him was one of the most juvenile and immature things I've ever seen.
On July 08 2011 07:31 TheGreenBee wrote: I want real emotions, real personalities, and real interview answers from pro players, not some $$ forced PC bullshit.
you don't get it, do you? real personalities that attract the crowds and bring tons of entairtenment to the scene are those of the koreans for example (watch MC). Idra's is real as well but at the same time highly immature - it's just something that is plain negative, it has no positive side to it at all. would you pay to watch a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormons? I wouldn't. I would pay however to watch MC's entertaining ceremonies.
MC's ceremonies are real? kidding me right? they remind me of WWE and how much of a joke those people are.
Again.. I want real emotions, personalities, and answers! Good or Bad! no staged crap like MC! or PC stuff.
This whole subject is moot. The question of whether they punish certain behavior is in the discretion of teams or the competitive organizations. If they deem it to be in their interest to punish people for being rude of whatever, they'll do it.
I don't understand the point of writing yet another "X is bad for ESPORTS" thread. It doesn't concern anybody other than the organizations.
On July 08 2011 00:34 RipxDark wrote: Everyone knows that the NFL is a joke when it comes to fining people. Even they can a flag or a penalty for spiking the baller or celebrating with more than just yourself. MMA should be fined for doing a kamehameha after winning or fine MC for doing the throat slit. We don't want to go down that path
WHy does everyone only compare NFL, the ONLY league where this does not work as well.
Because you brought it up to prove your point, and ignored the fact that in virtually every major professional team league (including the NFL) players are constantly swearing, it's just that the people behind the cameras know this and make an active effort (i.e., not showing the faces of angry players) to make sure it's not broadcast on air?
I agree that BM'ing is unprofessional and if we are trying to put up a professional look we need to have higher standards or maturity (to show that we are adults and not 13 years olds) but IMO I think it should not necessarily be a league standard (though if they decided to they need to make that clear) but more so on the sponsor side of things. If a sponsor does not want to be associated with childish behavior they need to make that clear to the team they are sponsoring as they are seen as a extension/representation of the company.
In the end I think it would be better for ESPORTS growth to be more professional but I also see the point of staying true to character (within the realms of being mature adults) so I say leave it to the sponsors.
On July 08 2011 00:34 RipxDark wrote: Everyone knows that the NFL is a joke when it comes to fining people. Even they can a flag or a penalty for spiking the baller or celebrating with more than just yourself. MMA should be fined for doing a kamehameha after winning or fine MC for doing the throat slit. We don't want to go down that path
WHy does everyone only compare NFL, the ONLY league where this does not work as well.
Because you brought it up to prove your point, and ignored the fact that in virtually every major professional team league (including the NFL) players are constantly swearing, it's just that the people behind the cameras know this and make an active effort (i.e., not showing the faces of angry players) to make sure it's not broadcast on air?
I honestly do not understand what this proves!? There is no point in proving THAT IT HAPPENS because obviously it does.
But how on earth is this possibly a good thing for this players reputation, or any sponsors associated with him? It quite simply isn't. So yes - swearing happens in other sports but it is certainly not a positive thing
On July 08 2011 00:36 Stiluz wrote: I despise actions of trying to excert your own sense of "morality" (e.g. profanity) on others and try to call if professionalism. I want the players to be themselves and I don't care for people forcing this form of "professionalism". A sport or competition can be professional while at the same time maintaining some real humanity and emotions, just look football (european football that is). The bickering between Wenger and Dalgish (sp?) included a lot of profanity. I guess the limit is when the players direct insults at the audience (Rooney swearing at the camera, though it was later explained he was just pissed at the camera guy). Personally, I don't want to see the SC2 scene be devoid of emotions and if things like the BM between Huk and Idra is how they show their emotions for example, that's a great thing.
This!
I didn't mind when I saw a post that asked for profanity filters in the streams because everyone should be able to choose whatever they want to watch but giving pro's a fine for cussing?
IdrA and HuK are destroying ESPORTS from the inside out! This explains why they have so few fans, and why no one would ever tune in to a game for the sole reason that one of them is playing in it. I knew it all along.
On July 08 2011 00:34 RipxDark wrote: Everyone knows that the NFL is a joke when it comes to fining people. Even they can a flag or a penalty for spiking the baller or celebrating with more than just yourself. MMA should be fined for doing a kamehameha after winning or fine MC for doing the throat slit. We don't want to go down that path
WHy does everyone only compare NFL, the ONLY league where this does not work as well.
Because you brought it up to prove your point, and ignored the fact that in virtually every major professional team league (including the NFL) players are constantly swearing, it's just that the people behind the cameras know this and make an active effort (i.e., not showing the faces of angry players) to make sure it's not broadcast on air?
I honestly do not understand what this proves!? There is no point in proving THAT IT HAPPENS because obviously it does.
But how on earth is this possibly a good thing for this players reputation, or any sponsors associated with him? It quite simply isn't. So yes - swearing happens in other sports but it is certainly not a positive thing
Why does a player's reputation matter to you? If someone wants to ruin their reputation, let him. If he starts to push away fans / gets kicked off of teams / stop gettings sponsors, then too bad for him. It's his power to exercise.. and what he makes of it
EPT
