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I am fine with a lot of things that spice up a match and add a certain flair to it, like rivalries and the likes. I am also totally fine with ceremonies and celebration gestures and with provocative interviews.
But I think that there are still certain lines that shouln't be crossed, if things get too personal for instance, if they happen frequently or if they humilate an opponent outside of the context of the game.
Other than that, I think it is good that the OP has brought up this discussion, since it might help the organizers of leagues to decide where "BM" starts and when it should be fined and what is accepted by the gaming community.
I for example think that racist comments should lead to a severe punishment.
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On July 08 2011 06:20 desrow wrote:Here's what the OP PM'd me
My reponse:When I post in the teamliquid forums I don't post as a pro-gamer. I post as a citizen of the starcraft 2 community. Your article is all about stirring shit up and creating fake drama. we need people like idra what we dont need is has been writers who are looking for glory His PMShow nested quote +Original Message From mki:
I'm not going to bring this into a public forum war but you made me chuckle:
He's quoting my post 1 page back
Just consider yourself lucky that I cared enough to call you out. Your article is just a notch higher than "this article is crap i won't even bother post a comment".
I could just as easily say --- your play is just a notch higher that I noticed it a little bit. But the fact of the matter is. I couldn't give a rats ass that you responded to my article. You're not THAT amazing of a player. Just better than most but not as good as the vast majority of pro's.
What a douche bag hahaha. Its pretty funny how he complains about BM and is now bm'ing people in the thread! I think hes trolling us guys :>
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On July 08 2011 00:30 mki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 00:29 rackdude wrote:
Then it's gonna be like the NFL and you'll get fined for dancing... The NFL is the only example where this rule goes overboard. The rest of the leagues do fine. Look at soccer. Players have extensive celebrations and so what. They only get fined when they really do something dumb like pretend to snort cocaine on the sideline... To the comment right above. That's the point - it's my opinion. Whether they make use of it or not is up to them. I'm not going to be two-sided about an opinion......
actually soccer is pretty bad too
i remember Messi getting fined for showing words written on his undershirt during a celebration...dedicated to his mother (or someone close)
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On July 08 2011 06:45 Trowa127 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 06:20 desrow wrote:Here's what the OP PM'd me
My reponse:When I post in the teamliquid forums I don't post as a pro-gamer. I post as a citizen of the starcraft 2 community. Your article is all about stirring shit up and creating fake drama. we need people like idra what we dont need is has been writers who are looking for glory His PMOriginal Message From mki:
I'm not going to bring this into a public forum war but you made me chuckle:
He's quoting my post 1 page back
Just consider yourself lucky that I cared enough to call you out. Your article is just a notch higher than "this article is crap i won't even bother post a comment".
I could just as easily say --- your play is just a notch higher that I noticed it a little bit. But the fact of the matter is. I couldn't give a rats ass that you responded to my article. You're not THAT amazing of a player. Just better than most but not as good as the vast majority of pro's. What a douche bag hahaha. Its pretty funny how he complains about BM and is now bm'ing people in the thread! I think hes trolling us guys :>
i kinda felt it was more douchey to respond just to tell someone their article is trash.. i mean isnt THAT bm? aside from the 'he started it argument' .. you should really avoid PM'ing ppl you dont want to have a legit conversation with lol -
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For those of you who work, would you start cursing during an important meeting, or while talking to your clients?
A lot of people seem to think that we can't view good games unless we can still see their personalities. That seems fine, and is even great, but if a gamer's personality consists of cursing, what personality do they really have to offer?
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There should be a poll in the OP: People who agree with you and people who disagree. I'd be curious to see if there are many people here who would actually want to see BM disappear.
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On July 08 2011 06:45 3 Lions wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 00:30 mki wrote:On July 08 2011 00:29 rackdude wrote:
Then it's gonna be like the NFL and you'll get fined for dancing... The NFL is the only example where this rule goes overboard. The rest of the leagues do fine. Look at soccer. Players have extensive celebrations and so what. They only get fined when they really do something dumb like pretend to snort cocaine on the sideline... To the comment right above. That's the point - it's my opinion. Whether they make use of it or not is up to them. I'm not going to be two-sided about an opinion...... actually soccer is pretty bad too i remember Messi getting fined for showing words written on his undershirt during a celebration...dedicated to his mother (or someone close)
That was not really about BM.
More about silly football rules and sponsors
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On July 08 2011 05:28 mki wrote:
You guys are giving a ton of examples where BM happens in other sports. However the point is - all those sports look down upon that - we're the only one that encourages it. So don't say that BM is good because they do it in traditional sports.
Everyone trash talks, most analysts actually think it's entertaining until someone call's someone else a fag or something and offends a group of people and they all have to be PC about it. Refs dont really care if people trash talk as long as they dont do it to them for example. It's irrelevant and doesn't have much to do with why esports will succeed or fail imo.
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Can a mod close this thread....its clearly a troll -_-
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On July 08 2011 06:27 mki wrote:
The whole point of PMing you wasn't to bring it into a public forum war. I'm glad that you're so noble as to post as a citizen of the entire SC2 community and not as a pro. I'm not a writer looking for glory - I'm an editor who is looking to get my opinion known and start a discussion. I accomplished that.
You don't know me at all - don't go out saying I'm looking to create fake drama. I've worked at many top organizations and I'm sure that most if not all will vouch for me that I love and am more passionate about e-sports than most. I don't stir shit up, I speak my mind, put it on paper and I try to start discussions to see what the community wants.
Your post saying "You're lucky I responded or lucky to call you out" had elitism written all over it. So please don't say that you didn't post as a pro because it had "i'm better than you" implied.
oh come on man, you bothered replying to.. desrow? desrow is a nobody who thinks he's a proffesional player. I have tried to watch his stream multiple times and all i see and hear is a whiny untalented player who complains about lag, often ragequits and is also extremely disrespectful to his viewers. honestly, i dont know why his stream is even 'featured' and why someone would sit and watch this mess for more than 5 minutes. plus, we all know kids, that revealing personal conversations is always a sign of maturity and professionalism. not.
on topic: finally!! a guy who speaks the truth. what you people seem to not understand is that this opinion isnt claiming that idra's behaviour is bad for esports as it is (hell its even funny seeing him ragequitting like a 12yo all the time and all the brainwashed zerg minions in these forums going: ''well clearly idra is a genius of epic proportions, he is so experienced that he knows he cant possibly win that game so he leaves''. someday maybe they'll figure out that he's just a sore loser but thats another topic). Idra's behaviour is bad if you want e-sports to go M A I N S T R E A M. Big corporations will never support e-sports imo when they see a guy like idra have fans - they will just refuse to see this community from a serious perspective.
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Reading stuff like this makes me lose faith in humanity.
Professsionalism is a bullshit concept.
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Your suggestion that teams and other organizations should go straight to court when they have a problem is kind of silly. We all know that lawsuits take a very long time to go to trial, are very expensive, and 9 times out of 10 result in settlement anyway. Not to mention the bad blood and scare tactics that they entail. You propose an extreme and highly impractical solution to the stated problem of the lack of professionalism in esports. I think you should be a little more reasonable.
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My opinion:
where BM is okay with me
(1) outside the game
(2) right at the start of the game
because both heat the atmosphere up immensely
and makes the game more enjoyable,
since people know how much pride is on the line.
where BM is not okay
(1) during the game
(2) at the end of the game
because
(1) play the game, don't distract with unimportant stuff
(2) either you are winning, then you are kicking at somebody who's already on the floor
or you are losing and then you are just flaming because of your own incompetence.
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I want real emotions, real personalities, and real interview answers from pro players, not some $$ forced PC bullshit.
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On July 08 2011 00:29 enecateReAP wrote:
I think you're being very bias in this.
You say that the decision is up to MLG yet you say we MUST crack down on it?
You're not giving MLG or ESL the decision, you're TELLING THEM what they're 'supposed' to do.
That's how an essay is written...
You state something as a fact (though it must be debatable, obviously), give evidence, and explain why it's important to go with your side.
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My biggest issue with the article outside of the fact that you tried to mesh two different topics that don't have anything to do with each other(which i believe was brought up) is the comparison to esports vs traditional sports.
The key is that 100years ago when the "traditional" sports(nfl,nhl,mlb,nba etc) were in their infancy people(fans) were different. There was no twitter, tmz or social media blasting the "traditional" sports legends acting a fool. The bottom line is now days when someone goes on tilt there is damn sure some film or video of it. The sad thing is the same things would happen back in the day but people weren't bloodthirsty for it.
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I'm one of those people who don't really care about trivial things like name calling, BM whatever. There's too many real problems in this world to waste time with silly things like that. However, some people just plain don't like it and to each his own I guess.
For me though, because I wouldn't care about it happening in any other sport I certainly don't care if it happens in Starcraft2. If anything it adds to the entertainment. Whether you're pro or anti BM you can't deny that and that's why I watch SC2 in the first place, entertainment.
I've never been a big fan of censorship no matter what form it takes. I want truth not good manners.
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Australia8532 Posts
On July 08 2011 07:23 Doodsmack wrote:
Your suggestion that teams and other organizations should go straight to court when they have a problem is kind of silly. We all know that lawsuits take a very long time to go to trial, are very expensive, and 9 times out of 10 result in settlement anyway. Not to mention the bad blood and scare tactics that they entail. You propose an extreme and highly impractical solution to the stated problem of the lack of professionalism in esports. I think you should be a little more reasonable.
He did not say that should be the absolute first response; he said that this must be an option and in the case of SK and Fnatic may be the only remaining solution. If the money involved in esports and particularly player contracts increase as they probably will then legal avenues must be considered in all cases. It's simply logical and there really is nothing to argue about. The OP is talking about taking a hard line against actions that bring the league, player or sponsors into disrepute. Court should be the very last FINAL option, but it should be an option.
On July 08 2011 07:15 aFF.TEEN wrote:
Reading stuff like this makes me lose faith in humanity.
Professsionalism is a bullshit concept.
What have you proven with your post? Maybe add a 'why' or a 'how' or even just more than your one liner that you pressed the enter key in between to make it sort of look like a decent post. How is professionalism a bullshit concept!? Maybe in a world where we all sit in our basements rocking out for 12 hours playing LoL - sure then professionalism is total bs. But how about when there are sponsors involved? Or leagues trying to obtain extra funding? There are mainstream sponsors that will not associate themselves with negative activity.
There are usually two points of view - those who feel that this is esports, we are unique and deal with it - and then there is the "if we want to go mainstream we have to shape up." Luckily there is a happy medium; there are ways to be "BM" without being a complete dick; i.e. MMA's ceremony at MLG was not overtly rude but merely a crowd pleasing taunt.
There is always a "bad boy" in any sport; so i don't particularly care, but it's when that behaviour becomes allowable and is then reproduced by other players that it becomes a problem. If you break the rules, you suffer the consequences. And all the examples of swearing or BM in other sports is pretty hilarious; congratulations - you proved that they have happened - but none of those situations actually cast that sport in a positive light?
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On July 08 2011 07:31 TALegion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 00:29 enecateReAP wrote:
I think you're being very bias in this.
You say that the decision is up to MLG yet you say we MUST crack down on it?
You're not giving MLG or ESL the decision, you're TELLING THEM what they're 'supposed' to do.
That's how an essay is written... You state something as a fact (though it must be debatable, obviously), give evidence, and explain why it's important to go with your side.
I feel like he missed some key steps in the process. It was essentially the usual argument that's starting to get annoying. Real sports do it, eSports should do it too.
I like the personalities within Starcraft, situations like the ones mentioned in the OP are rare and add to the some story and emotion to events. If players were dropping F-bombs and trash talking each other in most of their games, it would become problematic, but as of now, it's a non-issue in my opinion.
Why should we crack down on this? I'm still missing this key component.
I think it's handled fine as it is.
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Hi, I signed up just to tell you that I disagree. There is no major governing body for Starcraft like there is for basketball and football (NBA and NFL) if individual tournaments started imposing these silly rules they would only be hurting themselves. Quite frankly, I love the raw emotion of the players, like MMA and MC taunting IdrA. It's what makes it so enjoyable for me.
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EPT
