This is an article I wrote for myMYM.com - the editor and chief and I have came to the conclusion that it would be more beneficial to actually contribute to TL.net rather then just post a stupid link to the article. Having said that you can read the original article on this page here or just read it below! http://www.mymym.com/en/article/1204.html
Every sport has had issues with bad manners and professionalism in their communities. Often times we don't realize that this is all around us in everyday life, and that it's not only electronic sports athletes hidden behind their firewall who exhibit bad manners. However there is a major difference on how society and these other traditional sports deal and react to the lack of professionalism; this is where our problem lies within electronic sports.
Recently we saw a very loud transfer deal go south when SK Gaming reportedly signed Fnatic superstar Marcus "Delpan" Larsson. Fnatic denied being even contacted and all of the sudden a giant battle (the war has been on-going) started regarding the terms of the contract, which team had the right to Delpan and what Fnatic did in the past with Rasmus "Gux" Stahl. Fnatic accused SK Gaming of going behind their back instead of trying to legitimately buy Delpan out of a contract, bring up the issue of the validity of such contracts in electronic sports. The community's reaction was luckily very negative to this whole ordeal, but not many have found a good overall solution. There is only one good solution which will end such matters once and for all, and unfortunately it is very harsh. Fnatic should immediately sue SK Gaming for the maximum amount possible. Furthermore, rather than fine Delpan 2,500 EURO, they should fine him the maximum fee they possibly could. In the future, if that fee is 2,500 EURO, they should change their contract to make such a fee 10,000 EURO. In addition to all this, all contracts MUST BE notarized by a qualified lawyer. If such harsh action would be taken, all organizations around the world will know that a change has come and that we can't steal each other's players anymore. This is how this matter is taken care of in every traditional sports league around the world, and until organizations take a hard blow for such negative actions, they will continue with said negative actions.
Professionalism isn't an issue limited to two organizations or one game however. It's not just Counter-Strike 1.6, SK Gaming and Fnatic who constantly fight with each other. One of the biggest games to hit the electronic sports scene ever also is plagued by this issue. StarCraft II, although has not struggled as much with contract negotiations yet, definitely has issues with players being bad mannered and often times racist or inappropriate. Although being bad mannered and disrespectful is a great way to gain a mental advantage above your opponent, it is also considered by most leagues whether in traditional or electronic sports, illegal. And again, there is a very notable difference in how we deal with these issues. Bad manners (or BM) in StarCraft II are taken with a shrug and divide the community into those that love a player and those that hate him/her. This includes private and public BM. However there is a major difference in professional sports. Bad manners in traditional sports are very private and hidden. If bad manners or disrespect are noted by an official, there are always fines imposed in traditional sports! The same needs to become true for electronic sports. We cannot afford to allow our players to publicly tell someone to "Fuck off" in chat. Such actions need to be met with consequences. If it happens in private by the side, away from officials, then that is a matter we can't control; however publicly we need to denounce such occurences.
The biggest example of such BM is arguably Greg 'EG.IdrA' Fields. For years he had divided the community into lovers and haters. Many of his fans argue that he is gaining a mental edge. Many of his haters just say he is unprofessional and rude. However the final world should come from event organizers such as Major League Gaming and the Electronic Sports League. Such leagues MUST forbid such public disrespect and fine IdrA. A message needs to be sent. EG manager SirScoots has often been quoted on Twitter and elsewhere to be against the word "rape". I personally don't think that the word "rape" is holding electronic sports back in this situation. I think it's the event organizers who refuse to punish individual players in their events who are at fault here. Terrell Owens gets fined for celebrating too much in the National Football League; can you imagine how much he would get fined for telling someone to "Fuck off" in public?!
What needs to change:
Event organizers need to start doing their part and really crack down on what professional gaming is and isn't - especially from professional e-athletes. If, for example, EG.IdrA tells Liquid'HuK to "fuck off", he MUST be fined considerably so that it doesn't happen again. In addition to this, organizations must start to truly take care of matters by legal avenues. Signing contracts isn't enough; contracts must be enforced and notarized. If there is a breach and a settlement can't be made, the situation should go to court immediately. Until we make these changes we will be behind traditional sports for ages to come.
To grant kudo's where they are deserved it should be noted that the Electronic Sports League has fined teams in the past for delaying events. Recently, in the last season of the Intel Extreme Masters, Ukrainian side Natus Vincere was fined 20% from their overall prize winnings for being late to a match. Although this definitely sent a message, it needs to be done consistently rather than to just one team. The rule needs to become an enforced rule on a regular basis, rather than one episode of punishments.
Although an article, this is also a plea to event organizers and organizations like to modify some rules and regulations to help the growth of electronic sports. A fine on a to player might be negative in the short term, however in the long term it will build a more professional world for all of electronic sports. We're all in this together, and it is in the best interest of all of us for event organizers and organizations which support teams to encourage positive action.+ Show Spoiler +
I'll be sure to include the why's in my next article - I thought it was implied.
The overall image of e-sports goes down when players swear in public chat. MLG allows certain age groups under legal age to watch the game in public and then you have IdrA who is supported by companies like Intel saying Fuck Off. You don't see Intel, say fuck off. Also, you don't see professional athletes say this (and once they do they are fined, heavily).
We can't afford it because e-sports already has a negative image in public view since it's a "virtual sport". Just look at how many people laugh at the fact of playing games on a computer for a living. The swearing doesn't help us gain fans.
On July 08 2011 00:23 Dararr wrote: I'm trying to find where you explain WHY they MUST fine people for BM
as long as there are rules stating that you may receive a penalty / fine for X, you must comply. failure to do so will lead to _________. honestly i think the level of professionalism in the foreign scene has not matured yet. take a look at korea. progamers are NOT allowed to chat in game. only a 'gl hf' and 'gg' is allowed at the start or end of the game. other than that, they can chat all they want in the lobby because it will not be televised. hopefully one day, such rules will be applied to any streamed tournaments in the foreign scene that way, no more BM issues or fines etc.
You say that the decision is up to MLG yet you say we MUST crack down on it? You're not giving MLG or ESL the decision, you're TELLING THEM what they're 'supposed' to do.
On July 08 2011 00:29 rackdude wrote: Then it's gonna be like the NFL and you'll get fined for dancing...
The NFL is the only example where this rule goes overboard. The rest of the leagues do fine. Look at soccer. Players have extensive celebrations and so what. They only get fined when they really do something dumb like pretend to snort cocaine on the sideline...
To the comment right above. That's the point - it's my opinion. Whether they make use of it or not is up to them. I'm not going to be two-sided about an opinion......
players aren't allowed to chat in game, I got in trouble for chatting with HuK at MLG Dallas when we were playing a seeding match and bnet was lagging really hard.
I am really afraid of a situation where every league absolutely forbids any chat in game and BM on stage. For me the great enjoyment out of a tournament like MLG is watching the players interact outside of the game itself (outside of trying to win).
I would prefer what we have now to a place where you get disqualified/fined for chatting ingame.
On July 08 2011 00:29 rackdude wrote: Then it's gonna be like the NFL and you'll get fined for dancing...
The NFL is the only example where this rule goes overboard. The rest of the leagues do fine. Look at soccer. Players have extensive celebrations and so what. They only get fined when they really do something dumb like pretend to snort cocaine on the sideline...
To the comment right above. That's the point - it's my opinion. Whether they make use of it or not is up to them. I'm not going to be two-sided about an opinion......
In soccer you can also tell a player of the opposing team to fuck off without getting a penalty (wordplay), so what's your point? A lot this professionalism talk is nonsense and will only make sc2 boring.
Everyone knows that the NFL is a joke when it comes to fining people. Even they can a flag or a penalty for spiking the baller or celebrating with more than just yourself. MMA should be fined for doing a kamehameha after winning or fine MC for doing the throat slit. We don't want to go down that path
On July 08 2011 00:29 rackdude wrote: Then it's gonna be like the NFL and you'll get fined for dancing...
The NFL is the only example where this rule goes overboard. The rest of the leagues do fine. Look at soccer. Players have extensive celebrations and so what. They only get fined when they really do something dumb like pretend to snort cocaine on the sideline...
To the comment right above. That's the point - it's my opinion. Whether they make use of it or not is up to them. I'm not going to be two-sided about an opinion......
In soccer you can also tell a player of the opposing team to fuck off without getting a penalty (wordplay), so what's your point? A lot this professionalism talk is nonsense and will only make sc2 boring.
If you tell a player to "fuck off" and a referee hears it they have the right to notify FIFA and fine you. That's an actual rule. Also, they can call a foul if they so see fit. (An indirect foul)
On July 08 2011 00:34 RipxDark wrote: Everyone knows that the NFL is a joke when it comes to fining people. Even they can a flag or a penalty for spiking the baller or celebrating with more than just yourself. MMA should be fined for doing a kamehameha after winning or fine MC for doing the throat slit. We don't want to go down that path
WHy does everyone only compare NFL, the ONLY league where this does not work as well.
I despise actions of trying to excert your own sense of "morality" (e.g. profanity) on others and try to call if professionalism. I want the players to be themselves and I don't care for people forcing this form of "professionalism". A sport or competition can be professional while at the same time maintaining some real humanity and emotions, just look football (european football that is). The bickering between Wenger and Dalgish (sp?) included a lot of profanity. I guess the limit is when the players direct insults at the audience (Rooney swearing at the camera, though it was later explained he was just pissed at the camera guy). Personally, I don't want to see the SC2 scene be devoid of emotions and if things like the BM between Huk and Idra is how they show their emotions for example, that's a great thing.
Why does e-sports have to copy from anything else? It can't and never will be football or soccer or baseball, why can we just embrace the culture it does have and enjoy that?
On July 08 2011 00:35 mki wrote: WHy does everyone only compare NFL, the ONLY league where this does not work as well.
Because thats the end game.
One example I have is take a look at Nascar, for the past couple years they have simply backed off from trying to control the drivers ontrack actions, post race is where they limit what people get away with. I think that model would fit far better in e-sports, if people want to show emotion during a game its fine.
And if the f-word gets you upset I would not ever be near the field of any sporting event, you will hear far worse.
On July 08 2011 00:34 RipxDark wrote: Everyone knows that the NFL is a joke when it comes to fining people. Even they can a flag or a penalty for spiking the baller or celebrating with more than just yourself. MMA should be fined for doing a kamehameha after winning or fine MC for doing the throat slit. We don't want to go down that path
WHy does everyone only compare NFL, the ONLY league where this does not work as well.
Because that is the only other sport that I watch.
There is a reason why professional sportmen don't act like 12 year old BM children when they are national TV. I dont want esport to go the way of WWE in terms of sportmanship and attitude/culture, even then it's all scripted(if that can be some sort of justification). BM will only make people look down on the players for lack of maturity, also who would respect or sponsor assholes? Having a personality is fine, but do it outside in game chat where not everyone can see you act like a douche. There is a difference between being a professional and being whatever you are online between your friends or random games where you smurf.
Also behind the back player deals and transfer are still a big issue even in football today, it's a shame that this is happen here as well but not surprising at all. Only legislation or an unified esport league administration can do something about this.
edit: its not about copying professional sport, it's about how to act in actual society as a paid professional worker, and necessary to get esport more popular and accepted. Otherwise it will forever be a niche industry that is laughed at for having kids doing kids things playing video games for a living.
On July 08 2011 00:36 Stiluz wrote: I despise actions of trying to excert your own sense of "morality" (e.g. profanity) on others and try to call if professionalism. I want the players to be themselves and I don't care for people forcing this form of "professionalism". A sport or competition can be professional while at the same time maintaining some real humanity and emotions, just look football (european football that is). The bickering between Wenger and Dalgish (sp?) included a lot of profanity. I guess the limit is when the players direct insults at the audience (Rooney swearing at the camera, though it was later explained he was just pissed at the camera guy). Personally, I don't want to see the SC2 scene be devoid of emotions and if things like the BM between Huk and Idra is how they show their emotions for example, that's a great thing.
I stated in my article that such emotions outside of the game can be used, just as they are used outside of games in sports. However when its under competition control it should be discouraged. Emotions are always good and I agree however at least for the overall appearance to the GENERAL public such BM should be discouraged. If players want to swear at each other outside of the event hall in front of fans go for it.
I don't know whats more unprofessional: a little swear word, telling the opponent to play and not talk, or bragging about a win (5 minutes ago) in your face...
probably both.
But: we are all happy for that (including MLG) as this creates drama
Nonsense. Players have personalities, and Idra is probably one of the prime examples of that. Banning out personalities will only cause e-sports to diminish. I do not watch e-sports to watch robots play a game, I watch to see people play. People that I can like, people that I can hate, but not robots.
People like Idra are needed for e-sports, just as much as manner legends like White-Ra. His very fanclub is the proof of it, it's bigger than any other fanclub, and the vast majority of posts is from sincere fans. The game of sports, and especially the game of e-sports, where currently the distance between players and audience is very small, becomes much better with personality. Naturally, there is a limit, but I think that limit is already being handled well enough.
Personalities define the players, and currently the western e-sports scene. Forcing a rule like the one above, will limit personalities and cause a stalemate, which in the end, will cause a negative impact.
Why must we always copy sports and such? They are completly different organisation and the way they are played is drasticly different. If I tell someone to "fuck off" in front of someone who is trying to focus or just made a bad move, his anger may slip and result in an unwanted, violent situation. However, even if I am at a lan, the insults the player receives reads them, he doesnt hear them and the player standing up, walking around the rable to attack the person who just insulted him without no one stopping him is very unlikely. The probability of him insulting him back, via chat, is much more probable.
You also say swearing is not helping us gaining any supporters but having a plain, dull scene without any rivalty will kill it for sure.
Even if MLG, for exemple, decided to punish a player like IdrA for his badmanners by banning him for the following event. Then IdrA would be mad, the viewers would be mad, the sponsors would be mad (because less views), his team would be mad and so on. Punishing a player from a major event based off badmanners will make very few people happy compared to the number of people who will disapprove.
I think you should write two articles. One about contract issues and one about in-game manners. The way you tried to combine the two issues diluted the power of each argument.
In regards to the infamous IdrA/Huk MLG incident, if you think IdrA should have been fined then Huk should have been as well. Huk was taunting IdrA and wanted to get a response. In most sports leagues both players involved in this kind of incident would be penalized.
This is an important issue that the community needs to work out. It remains to be seen whether bad manner really reduce the appeal of e-sports.
I have a feeling many haven't read this sentence in the article:
If it happens in private by the side, away from officials, then that is a matter we can't control; however publicly we need to denounce such occurences.
I am in no way saying get rid of emotions. But not on our version of "national TV" meaning streams.
On July 08 2011 00:41 Jeramus wrote: I think you should write two articles. One about contract issues and one about in-game manners. The way you tried to combine the two issues diluted the power of each argument.
In regards to the infamous IdrA/Huk MLG incident, if you think IdrA should have been fined then Huk should have been as well. Huk was taunting IdrA and wanted to get a response. In most sports leagues both players involved in this kind of incident would be penalized.
This is an important issue that the community needs to work out. It remains to be seen whether bad manner really reduce the appeal of e-sports.
Noted, thanks And thanks to all of you discussing this. In the end, the point is to start a discussion and see what the community wants.
On July 08 2011 00:29 rackdude wrote: Then it's gonna be like the NFL and you'll get fined for dancing...
The NFL is the only example where this rule goes overboard. The rest of the leagues do fine. Look at soccer. Players have extensive celebrations and so what. They only get fined when they really do something dumb like pretend to snort cocaine on the sideline...
To the comment right above. That's the point - it's my opinion. Whether they make use of it or not is up to them. I'm not going to be two-sided about an opinion......
Has someone ever actually pretended to snort cocaine on the sideline before? If not where did you get such an idea. Although I think it would be a lot more fun if IdrA started dancing after all his victories.
If it happens in private by the side, away from officials, then that is a matter we can't control; however publicly we need to denounce such occurences.
I am in no way saying get rid of emotions. But not on our version of "national TV" meaning streams.
Im fine with all the trash talk but guys like Idra takes it seriously and literally cuss. I dont want to watch players cussing in brodcasted games.eventually this lacks professionalism
On July 08 2011 00:43 mki wrote: I have a feeling many haven't read this sentence in the article:
If it happens in private by the side, away from officials, then that is a matter we can't control; however publicly we need to denounce such occurences.
I am in no way saying get rid of emotions. But not on our version of "national TV" meaning streams.
So the idea is to be fake? To appeal to who?
General public that watch MLG when it gets posted on reddit. Parents of young gamers so they support the game. Huge corporate sponsors. BUt mostly the general public so people will find more of a reason to not laugh at us.
You're right, bm is bringing down ESPORTS from the top down. It's all over folks, pro players care enough about the game to express their emotions in expletive.
I feel those more educated about eSports (or the affect of such events on sports and the like) would be better suited for writing something like this...
On July 08 2011 00:36 Stiluz wrote: I despise actions of trying to excert your own sense of "morality" (e.g. profanity) on others and try to call if professionalism. I want the players to be themselves and I don't care for people forcing this form of "professionalism". A sport or competition can be professional while at the same time maintaining some real humanity and emotions, just look football (european football that is). The bickering between Wenger and Dalgish (sp?) included a lot of profanity. I guess the limit is when the players direct insults at the audience (Rooney swearing at the camera, though it was later explained he was just pissed at the camera guy). Personally, I don't want to see the SC2 scene be devoid of emotions and if things like the BM between Huk and Idra is how they show their emotions for example, that's a great thing.
I stated in my article that such emotions outside of the game can be used, just as they are used outside of games in sports. However when its under competition control it should be discouraged. Emotions are always good and I agree however at least for the overall appearance to the GENERAL public such BM should be discouraged. If players want to swear at each other outside of the event hall in front of fans go for it.
I am still trying to find a valid argument for the fining of offensive language. The age group that e-sports is targeting generally doesn't disapprove. MLG doesn't lose audience when IdrA flips someone off. Quite the contrary.
Personally I think that people are putting way too much thought into professionalism and should really take a step back to remind themselves that it's just a game. Don't get me wrong it is important to act professional but the community loves drama way too much and should just enjoy the game more.
Give me a break. I agree on penalties for games that are just purely rude and careless by the players such as being late for a match, no one gains from that and there is nothing contributory to the concept of E-Sports.
But repressing people's personalities, their quirks and traits is pointless. Believe it or not, E-Sports is not a professional sport if we take the strict meaning and compare it to Baseball or Football, it can have its flexibilities and these sort of things just add flavor outside of the game and laughs.
Your article did not convince me. I root for and against players specifically because of their mannerisms and egos. I like when Kevin Garnett yells cuss words during the game, I hate when Kobe Bryant has that smug smirk, I thought it was amazingly funny when Zinedine Zidane headbutted that dude in the World Cup, I think it's awesome when HuK or Idra talk shit to each other or to other players, and I like how Incontrol is so manner. I want to see the true person. Not some fake forced appreciation for other players.
If you take away their ability to display their egos they become faceless, uniform, boring. And e-sports would suffer. The reason SC2 is gaining popularity is because we get to see personality in a way that we didn't get to see in BW, with that advent of streaming.
On July 08 2011 00:43 GentleDrill wrote: Why are you taking the model from physical sports and not Brood War?
Posted like a guy who doesnt even know how strict Kespa is or how SC2 in Korea follow the same rules, we are talking about in game chat and conduct here. You can smack talk and swear as much as you want away from the camera and microphones. Ceremonies are also fine, but ever wonder why Koreans don't do the middle finger even though they know what it means? Also try get big sponsors to buy into kids talking like douchebags on national tv playing video games. Being a pro is different from playing against randoms on Bnet.
On July 08 2011 00:45 mki wrote:General public that watch MLG when it gets posted on reddit. Parents of young gamers so they support the game. Huge corporate sponsors. BUt mostly the general public so people will find more of a reason to not laugh at us.
I just disagree that people showing emotion would turn people away. If we have a bunch of robot pros how is that interesting? What makes any sport exciting is individual flair combined with skill, imo.
The rivalries that have formed based on BM are now very raw and easy to build hype over and it gets eyes to the screen. The focus should be on getting gamers to care about e-sports first not about making sure some random parent gets upset over idra showing emotion during a game.
Does it actually matter ? Every example I see people give is generally just a bit of banter, words are words so what. Teams are the only people that should judge there players.
People get far far too worked up over words, 99.9% of the things idra says are really not anything anyone should care about. Most of us are adults or young adults we should be quite comfortable with some words, as far as I have seen I have yet to ever see any bad sportsman ship in anything SC2 related.
Look at john mcenroe...he has been made famous by his on court antics and is more famous for it than his actual tennis achievement's, he has even been in films as himself to play the bad man of tennis role.
In football I repeatedly see players swearing at each other and at officials, guess what, nothing happens, and yet it's the most popular sport in the UK, I don't think saying "fuck off" is killing esports.
No one said that if they are fined for this they will stop doing it. Look how strict other sports are - players still show BM, however since at least in the public it is discouraged the public has a better view on the competition. What I mean is that PUBLICLY as a sport we should discourage this, whether or not it happens is up to the players but at least people coming into the sport will know that theoretically we don't stand for this.
As a competitive soccer player I know that I swear a lot on the soccer field. I get penalized for it and so what, I continue to do it.
Don't think this is entirely needed, most leagues and tournies discourage players from bm-ing, even talking in game. This would just open up more controversy over the types of bm players get fined for (well, is Cruncher's bm?) it wouldn't be able to enforce it with complete equality and I don't think it has a place in esports.
We are not there yet! we have a long way to go before this is even any sort of an issue, right now we are still way to small and kind of a niche community that don't really need these constrictions. I only se it as the player letting some personality in to the game.
move to blogs? thats a very general topic..... besides that, i totally agree....professional sports needs professional behaviour. idra is one of the most unprofessionals ever. esports always wants to be recognized as a professional sport and not as a freetime activity for kids. but with ppl acting like kids it never will get there. the only sport i know where its common to act like a kid and BM all the time is boxing. a sport where ppl hit each other until their brains become MUD. so do you want to have a prof. sport like football or baseball where ppl treat their enemies with respect. or do you want a sport with ppl like idra making this sport look like a bunch of kids or boxers with mud brains? fine the childish unprofessionals!!!!
I liked what you had to say about Delpan. I'm a huge fan of cs and Delpan is pretty amazing with the awp.... When you sign a contract you should #1 read it and #2 abide by it. If you can't abide by it then either don't sign it or talk with whomever is involved and see if something can be worked out.
A lot of this has to do with people being inexperienced with real life and not understanding the gravity of a contract.
As far as banning BM i think you're way off base. I've never been BM in game or in RL.. I'm pretty reserved, however, the BM in sc2 is extremely entertaining. It creates rivalries and turns games that I would have cared less about into the premier match of the night..
I play terran so PvZ is a useless matchup for me to watch. I really have no interest in it, but add in IdrA vs Cruncher BM and suddenly it's the #1 match of the week for me to watch.
You can't tell me HuK wasn't provoking idra in the slightest there in that incident? Not to say this is the only case of supposed Idra BM.
"LOLOL U REALIZE MOST OF THE ARMY WAS HALLUC, JUST SAYING BRO"
I would expect nothing less than "Fuck off". I agree, it's not professional to BM other players or directly swear / insult them, but it is also highly unprofessional to gloat and/or provoke somebody after they lose a game like that.
I honestly don't think Pro-Gamers earn enough money to be fined for such "offences". Perhaps another form of discipline is to be used. I.e 200 hours of community service, aka coaching to bronze leaguers, lol.
Firstly, not to sound like an idrA fan boy, but every time he's bad mannered, it's normally due - he doesn't just come out with it on a whim.
Also, in a sport where success of tourneys is often directly related to the players playing in it, I think fining/banning players for being BM can be detrimental. Take IdrA again for example: his stream gets 20k viewers when it goes up, when he plays a match, undoubtedly the tourney match being streamed gets more viewers as a result of him playing. You ban him from the tournament, there are less viewers of the tournament, and eSports suffer. I think this is why eSports is individual. Say Wayne Rooney gets a 3 match ban, Manchester United do not suffer greatly in people watching/contributing to their games simply because he's not on the field - there are plenty more players on the roster to watch.
Not only that, but in sports where bad manners are penalised, they tend to be physical - punishments are incurred to stop the situation escalating. If I played professional snooker, and I told my opponent to fuck off after snookering me, chances are I won't be penalised for it - it will be made a big deal, but the referee is not going to get security in on me!
You're stating things and assuming the reader agrees. Saying things like 'Such leagues MUST forbid such public disrespect and fine IdrA' without giving any other reason than that sports do it, which isn't a compelling argument for me at all. Besides, surely you would want HuK fined just as much? He's obviously provoking Idra and is just as much BM, not that I mind. I'm an idra fan myself, I think his matches and rivalries are very fun to follow.
There are issues on both sides (players and organizers) imho.
The lack of profesionnalism from some players stems from their lack of maturity. Sorry but a guy like Idra doesn't have a "personality" he's just an immature disrespectful prick. People need to understand that there's a difference between entertainment and actual BM. Sure, these insults and middle fingers may please teenagers who love trash, but that's it. I'm pretty certain we won't be able to have mainstream esports if it's viewed as a bunch of kids insulting each other.
I just don't see why harsh language is different in e-sports when compared to NFL or NBA, its just so much more harsh on the field/court. Its not even close.
On July 08 2011 00:57 Chibithor wrote: You're stating things and assuming the reader agrees. Saying things like 'Such leagues MUST forbid such public disrespect and fine IdrA' without giving any other reason than that sports do it, which isn't a compelling argument for me at all. Besides, surely you would want HuK fined just as much? He's obviously provoking Idra and is just as much BM, not that I mind. I'm an idra fan myself, I think his matches and rivalries are very fun to follow.
It's my opinion. I'm going to be one-sided about my opinion man...
I think we should just call it "Competitive Gaming" because using the word "Sports" just causes a ton of people to want to argue that video games aren't sports, and distracts people from being able to just enjoy the content.
On July 08 2011 01:00 Zzoram wrote: I think we should just call it "Competitive Gaming" because using the word "Sports" just causes a ton of people to want to argue that video games aren't sports, and distracts people from being able to just enjoy the content.
An interesting thought - a topic for another discussion though I'm thinking :p
On July 08 2011 01:00 Zzoram wrote: I think we should just call it "Competitive Gaming" because using the word "Sports" just causes a ton of people to want to argue that video games aren't sports, and distracts people from being able to just enjoy the content.
I doubt it'd change much. People will always go at the deep-end.
On July 08 2011 00:59 mki wrote:It's my opinion. I'm going to be one-sided about my opinion man...
I think you just need to spell out who its hurting, when that went down twitter and TL went insane with comments about it, that draws attention to what was going on, attention is good and what e-sports needs to grow.
On July 08 2011 00:56 SecondChance wrote: You can't tell me HuK wasn't provoking idra in the slightest there in that incident? Not to say this is the only case of supposed Idra BM.
"LOLOL U REALIZE MOST OF THE ARMY WAS HALLUC, JUST SAYING BRO"
I would expect nothing less than "Fuck off". I agree, it's not professional to BM other players or directly swear / insult them, but it is also highly unprofessional to gloat and/or provoke somebody after they lose a game like that.
I honestly don't think Pro-Gamers earn enough money to be fined for such "offences". Perhaps another form of discipline is to be used. I.e 200 hours of community service, aka coaching to bronze leaguers, lol.
/shrug
I read a post shortly after the Huk Vs IdrA thing where someone linked the tournament rules which said that BMing like that was grounds for forfeiting the match in which case huk would have been forced a forfeit for being the first to talk.
So the rule was on the books, but nobody enforced it.
On July 08 2011 00:50 Cerneo wrote: General public that watch MLG when it gets posted on reddit. Parents of young gamers so they support the game. Huge corporate sponsors. BUt mostly the general public so people will find more of a reason to not laugh at us.
Kids are sitting home watching 16 and pregnant and the jersey shore. I think they can handle seeing the word 'fuck'.
On July 08 2011 00:42 Sated wrote: I have no problem with BM. It makes things entertaining. It adds spice to the match-ups. If it wasn't for this sort of BM, games like Cruncher vs. Idra wouldn't be as exciting because 9/10 times Idra is going to beat him quite easily (based on ladder games). But, because of certain smiley-faces, I love seeing them play - it adds a little edge.
I like rivalries also, but they don't require in game/event taunting or BM. This isn't WWE. There are rivalries and conflicting personalities in every sport without (public) in game provocation. I believe much of the cruncher/idra drama around tsl3 started earlier with an interview...(BM in interviews etc is, imho acceptable as being part of the personality of the player).
There's bm'ing in all sports and even the classiest athletes in the classiest sports like Tiger Woods have been caught swearing on camera after a bad drive. Lebron James BM'ed the entire public and the other team during last year's playoffs.
In the end, this BM'ing is an integral part of the game. It makes for a good game with some drama behind it. And when the Huk vs Idra incident happened, it created a rivalry that would make ever Huk vs Idra match interesting in the future. The quite elaborate celebrations that MC or other Korean players have creates a good environment for entertainment when you watch the GSTL or GSL matches.
However, there are limits to BM'ing and I don't think anyone has really crossed that line yet. Racist remarks, harsh remarks on sexuality, physical offenses (although Huk vs. TLO wrestling was great), and other more extreme things that wouldn't even be called "bad manners".
On July 08 2011 01:02 starcraft911 wrote: Kids are sitting home watching 16 and pregnant and the jersey shore. I think they can handle seeing the word 'fuck'.
Agreed.
I don't see anyone who would be chased away from SC2 due to BM being a fan anyway.
On July 08 2011 01:05 seoul_kiM wrote: There's bm'ing in all sports and even the classiest athletes in the classiest sports like Tiger Woods have been caught swearing on camera after a bad drive. Lebron James BM'ed the entire public and the other team during last year's playoffs.
In the end, this BM'ing is an integral part of the game. It makes for a good game with some drama behind it. And when the Huk vs Idra incident happened, it created a rivalry that would make ever Huk vs Idra match interesting in the future. The quite elaborate celebrations that MC or other Korean players have creates a good environment for entertainment when you watch the GSTL or GSL matches.
However, there are limits to BM'ing and I don't think anyone has really crossed that line yet. Racist remarks, harsh remarks on sexuality, physical offenses (although Huk vs. TLO wrestling was great), and other more extreme things that wouldn't even be called "bad manners".
The good think I've seen is coL dropping Destiny for the racism etc. I liked to see that coL was encouraging enforcing a ban on racism. Even though they didn't state it's for "racism" it seemed like that was one part of the contract he didn't want to adhere to.
Controversies always happen with teams; nothing we say will change that. Professional Athletes/Gamers are human in the end; nothing we say will change that (and tournaments are already cracking down on BM).
"HEY GUYS. E-Sports is awesome and all, but I feel the need to point out this really obscure/trivial/obvious issue that MAY DESTROY E-SPORTS (OMG). Because I care about it and want it to grow!"
Honestly, the BM in esports is what makes it sooo much more entertaining. Why are IdrA match viewer counts so much higher then others? Its because the dude causes drama, period. Don't get me wrong I can't stand the guy, but I'll definately tune into a Idra/HuK Idra/MC game over other GM matches.
Besides.. as much as I hate to admit it, the truth is BM and online gaming go hand in hand. While the Starcraft community is an improvement, but there is still quite a bit of it.
The good think I've seen is coL dropping Destiny for the racism etc. I liked to see that coL was encouraging enforcing a ban on racism.[/QUOTE]
This is quite false, the night before Destiny and coL parted ways Cruncher was in skype with Destiny and Catz being just as offensive. Destiny and coL had other issues it was not due to what was on his stream.
On July 08 2011 00:42 Sated wrote: I have no problem with BM. It makes things entertaining. It adds spice to the match-ups. If it wasn't for this sort of BM, games like Cruncher vs. Idra wouldn't be as exciting because 9/10 times Idra is going to beat him quite easily (based on ladder games). But, because of certain smiley-faces, I love seeing them play - it adds a little edge.
I like rivalries also, but they don't require in game/event taunting or BM. This isn't WWE. There are rivalries and conflicting personalities in every sport without (public) in game provocation. I believe much of the cruncher/idra drama around tsl3 started earlier with an interview...(BM in interviews etc is, imho acceptable as being part of the personality of the player).
Can you please name a few "rivalries and conflicting personalities in every sport without (public) in game provocation?"
I can't think of any off the top of my head unless you mean the kind of marketing rivalries they create out of thin air or "make up". example would be saying GSP and (insert fighter here) have bad blood when the only thing GSP has said in any interview is that he doesn't talk trash and he does his talking in the octagon.... but CLEARLY there is bad blood... right?
There is a reason the people at the UFC try to get the fighters to talk big and bad and that's because it sells. You want esports to grow faster leave it in.
Read the last line guys - my plea is more to event organizers than to the players. I'm sure that even with fines and rules in place that BM will continue - AND THAT'S OK! But organizers should enforce their rules and fine players just to keep the public image up.
Sure the NHL allows BM, however they do fine their players when things get out of hand. And look - emotion has not disappeared, players continue to do it.
I hope you realize that NFL/NBA players DO swear ALL THE TIME during games, at each other and even at refs. That's why the sound cuts out sometimes - to avoid broadcasting swears. Maybe they need a delay to take away comments like this, but it's really not that big of a deal. People swear. Get over it.
On July 08 2011 01:10 mki wrote: Read the last line guys - my plea is more to event organizers than to the players. I'm sure that even with fines and rules in place that BM will continue - AND THAT'S OK! But organizers should enforce their rules and fine players just to keep the public image up.
Sure the NHL allows BM, however they do fine their players when things get out of hand. And look - emotion has not disappeared, players continue to do it.
On July 08 2011 01:05 seoul_kiM wrote: There's bm'ing in all sports and even the classiest athletes in the classiest sports like Tiger Woods have been caught swearing on camera after a bad drive. Lebron James BM'ed the entire public and the other team during last year's playoffs.
In the end, this BM'ing is an integral part of the game. It makes for a good game with some drama behind it. And when the Huk vs Idra incident happened, it created a rivalry that would make ever Huk vs Idra match interesting in the future. The quite elaborate celebrations that MC or other Korean players have creates a good environment for entertainment when you watch the GSTL or GSL matches.
However, there are limits to BM'ing and I don't think anyone has really crossed that line yet. Racist remarks, harsh remarks on sexuality, physical offenses (although Huk vs. TLO wrestling was great), and other more extreme things that wouldn't even be called "bad manners".
The good think I've seen is coL dropping Destiny for the racism etc. I liked to see that coL was encouraging enforcing a ban on racism. Even though they didn't state it's for "racism" it seemed like that was one part of the contract he didn't want to adhere to.
wtf are you talking about? I know exacly 0 racist players, and I definitely have heard about Destiny.
On topic tho, I don't agree that bm hurts ESPORTS (see? I gave exactly as many arguments as you have) and I don't like the "they MUST" approach.
On July 08 2011 01:11 lolsixtynine wrote: I hope you realize that NFL/NBA players DO swear ALL THE TIME during games, at each other and even at refs. That's why the sound cuts out sometimes - to avoid broadcasting swears. Maybe they need a delay to take away comments like this, but it's really not that big of a deal. People swear. Get over it.
Yes. they avoid broadcasting swears. That's kind of the entire point of my article. I said I'm fine with it away from a public setting!
On July 08 2011 01:10 mki wrote: But organizers should enforce their rules and fine players just to keep the public image up.
Duhhhhhhhhhh.
They're already doing that; most players (including IdrA) stay relatively tame during public matches. Most BM is on the ladder anyways, in which case it's out of their hands.
Professionalism required = yes. Making every player behave the same way = no. I don't really like to watch bots play the game. It's OK for them to show their personality. All sports players talk trash during games, I don't see why SC2 pros have to be mutes during games.
Even if there was a problem with the BM, fines are not the solution. Fines will just make the event organizers seem more greedy if anything, it's not like these guys are making disgusting amounts of money like professional sports. And we shouldn't base esports off of real sports, they're very different things.
On July 08 2011 00:43 GentleDrill wrote: Why are you taking the model from physical sports and not Brood War?
Posted like a guy who doesnt even know how strict Kespa is or how SC2 in Korea follow the same rules, we are talking about in game chat and conduct here. You can smack talk and swear as much as you want away from the camera and microphones. Ceremonies are also fine, but ever wonder why Koreans don't do the middle finger even though they know what it means? Also try get big sponsors to buy into kids talking like douchebags on national tv playing video games. Being a pro is different from playing against randoms on Bnet.
I actually am aware of Kespa's notorious strictness. I also wasn't even necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with any of what he said in my post.
My point was just that it's silly to make parallels to physical sports when there's already a pretty well-established model that's much closer to the issue at hand. Especially when they actually already enforce alot of what he's talking about.
Personality and BM is what makes starcraft so interesting. Rivalries fuels some interesting matches and if you were to remove that you would kill all the fun.
I always think that people arguing about BM and how it relates to "professionalism" and of course the "growth of ESPORTS" are overdoing it. ESPORTS is a niche and I'm fine with that. I'd hate nothing more than IdrA only delivering bland and inoffensive statements that always sound the same after every match. It would take out a lot of entertainment value, only to gain "professionalism" by some arbitrary definition. Players should be allowed to display all the emotion and personality they want.
The NFL's rules against showboating are stupid and lame. The MC and MMA "ceremonies" were great crowd pleasers. And the BW fans have kindly showed us Firebathero. Wow that guy... haha... Yeah, I miss the NFL touchdown dancing. Fucking NFL... Anyways, that aside...
The NBA on the other hand, the players do get warned for ACTUAL bad behavior on the court. Sometimes ejected out of the game or suspended for several games. Probably nothing verbal as that's usually not heard by the viewers, but stuff like blatantly elbowing someone as they shoot.
These kinds of things are enforced on the court. Pretty sure NBA doesn't care what the players do off of it.
On July 08 2011 00:37 bubblegumbo wrote: There is a reason why professional sportmen don't act like 12 year old BM children when they are national TV. I dont want esport to go the way of WWE in terms of sportmanship and attitude/culture, even then it's all scripted(if that can be some sort of justification). BM will only make people look down on the players for lack of maturity, also who would respect or sponsor assholes? Having a personality is fine, but do it outside in game chat where not everyone can see you act like a douche. There is a difference between being a professional and being whatever you are online between your friends or random games where you smurf.
Also behind the back player deals and transfer are still a big issue even in football today, it's a shame that this is happen here as well but not surprising at all. Only legislation or an unified esport league administration can do something about this.
edit: its not about copying professional sport, it's about how to act in actual society as a paid professional worker, and necessary to get esport more popular and accepted. Otherwise it will forever be a niche industry that is laughed at for having kids doing kids things playing video games for a living.
Laughed at is correct. When I played WoW and the WoW arena tournaments were going on, the players were mocked for their childish behavior and people dismissed the whole thing. They didn't seem turned off at the idea of the actual competition... it just gave this image of snot nosed brats fighting over a video game and therefore people/viewers didn't want to be associated with it.
Yay, another "killing esports" thread, only slightly disguised.
Trashtalking and profanity has it's place in e-sports, just like it has in regular sport. I love it so much every time IdrA shows some real emotions, every time MC is cocky on stage, every time people do ceremonies etc. Don't go censoring that shit because "it's not professional".
On July 08 2011 00:37 bubblegumbo wrote: There is a reason why professional sportmen don't act like 12 year old BM children when they are national TV.
Most sports often do though, even football, and that's good.
Yay, another "killing esports" thread, only slightly disguised.
Trashtalking and profanity has it's place in e-sports, just like it has in regular sport. I love it so much every time IdrA shows some real emotions, every time MC is cocky on stage, every time people do ceremonies etc. Don't go censoring that shit because "it's not professional".
On July 08 2011 00:37 bubblegumbo wrote: There is a reason why professional sportmen don't act like 12 year old BM children when they are national TV.
Most sports often do though, even football, and that's good.
OK, I'm about to open up a new thread about this. Nowhere do I state that BM has NO PLACE in e-sports. I put in my article that yes, I do see that emotions should be present in e-sports. However they should not be broadcast in public eye on stream. Do you see a player say FUCK YOU on camera? No - you only hear about it later from news outlets.
On July 08 2011 01:14 Cerneo wrote: That makes even less sense though because the organizers want higher viewer counts and the way to build that is with drama and hype imo.
Wrong. Regardless of whatever convoluted market appeal it has, ALL tournament organizers make it clear in their terms of agreement that participants are not to start talking smack.
I don't remember any player being actually fined, but there have been a few cases where a player was barred from competing from excessive BM.
It's just rather silly thinking that they're going to encourage that shit.
GSL appeals to a much different audience then most other leagues. Eastern culture in general is much more formal and manner then western culture. BM is a big issue over there, here its much more accepted, and even encouraged as it makes things about 10x as entertaining.
On July 08 2011 01:10 mki wrote:Read the last line guys - my plea is more to event organizers than to the players.
That makes even less sense though because the organizers want higher viewer counts and the way to build that is with drama and hype imo.
Look at GSL
... and that's exactly what they are doing. drama and hype. GSL are also making these videos, where one person challanges a whole team or something like that.
and have you ever seen the GSTL? dancing Zerglings, mule dropping and making fun of the other team after a win. It's not BM, but it is drama.
I really feel like the first and second part of your article are unrelated, so I guess I'll start by saying I agree with most of the contract dispute issues. Not being legally inclined I really don't know for sure what they can do to make them binding, but it is obviously bad for competitive gaming if stuff like this happens.
Moving on to part 2, the BM issue, I try to respect the sports comparisons as much as I can, it's an easy trap that all of us fall into. But in reality I think making competitive gaming (esports) more like traditional sports is a mistake. It's funny but with all of that kotaku business in the last couple of days, a really great article was born at iplaywinner (a FGC fan site) which basically explains how I feel about this post. Not that it's trash like the Kotaku one was, but that it's really not worth catering to the non player or non gamer, the reality is 'normal' people don't give a shit, and the only way they are ever going to is if the material is presented in a way that best represents it and not some watered down hybrid of traditional American television and competitive gaming.
Lastly I'd just like to add, that guys like Ocho Cinco who the NFL is fining all this money because of their 'bm'. That dude makes a LOT of money compared to the size of those fines, so much that he isn't bothered by them, proven by the fact that he hasn't stopped. Now the NFL could increase the fine if they wanted to, but the truth is, they know some fans love it, and some fans hate it, and both of these sets of fans WATCH IT. So they fine him a minuscule (by his standards) amount so they can take both sides, and reap all the benefits, does esports really need this to grow? Mabye that type of player, yes, but the fake punishment, not so much.
These people upset about BM need to realize that when a little smack talk goes down at MLG people get goosebumps, get excited, and get their friends to watch it because it is entertaining. Yes there is a line drawn, but I'm reminded of a certain recent parody blog about killing esports everytime I read these new threads about professionalism on a daily basis. This topic presented no new argument, this has been said time and time again in countless threads before. Old argument is old.
Honestly, it doesn't matter, if E-Sports requires a dictatorial stance to "succeed" as you see it, then it will do it on it's own. Let it do it on it's own, don't complain that your 10 year old can't see a grown man talk trash to another grown man. In sports this kind of shit happens ALL the time, don't even compare as if people swearing on tv DOESN'T generate revenue for ESPN. Them fining a player is a publicity act to appease conservative types such as yourself, and then they reshow what the person did for weeks on end over and over again to get ratings, and generate hype for the next match from the player.
If, for example, EG.IdrA tells Liquid'HuK to "fuck off", he MUST be fined considerably so that it doesn't happen again.
And this article's lack of knowledge is astounding. You AREN'T supposed to say anything other than gl hf gg whatever in your matches. Instead HuK broke those rules first and was trash talking Idra, HE was the one being BM by taunting him. Your fanboy-love is blinding you.
Smack talking is part of the game, just like how fighting on the field is part of football. You can try to regulate it and seem more professional but it's never going to go away and the drama helps the sport.
:|
It's really sad when you see commentators freak the fuck out when some player types 3 words during the game. It's really not a big deal.
On July 08 2011 01:19 mki wrote: OK, I'm about to open up a new thread about this. Nowhere do I state that BM has NO PLACE in e-sports. I put in my article that yes, I do see that emotions should be present in e-sports. However they should not be broadcast in public eye on stream. Do you see a player say FUCK YOU on camera? No - you only hear about it later from news outlets.
What's your argument here?
"BM has a place in E-Sports. Emotions are a good thing!" "But they shouldn't be broadcasted."
On July 08 2011 01:19 mki wrote: OK, I'm about to open up a new thread about this. Nowhere do I state that BM has NO PLACE in e-sports. I put in my article that yes, I do see that emotions should be present in e-sports. However they should not be broadcast in public eye on stream. Do you see a player say FUCK YOU on camera? No - you only hear about it later from news outlets.
What's your argument here?
"BM has a place in E-Sports. Emotions are a good thing!" "But they shouldn't be broadcasted."
On July 08 2011 01:14 Cerneo wrote: That makes even less sense though because the organizers want higher viewer counts and the way to build that is with drama and hype imo.
Wrong. Regardless of whatever convoluted market appeal it has, ALL tournament organizers make it clear in their terms of agreement that participants are not to start talking smack.
I don't remember any player being actually fined, but there have been a few cases where a player was barred from competing from excessive BM.
It's just rather silly thinking that they're going to encourage that shit.
Then why did MLG have a video of the Idra/MC showdown on a vod moments after it went down?
On July 08 2011 01:03 Pants10 wrote: What about sports where BM is a major selling point, like hockey?
It depends I guess. I don't think esports is in that position though. Some of the SC2 BM has been pretty funny though. And none of it IMO is worth groaning over. You should see some of the stuff in other competitive games. It makes you feel embarrassed.
On July 08 2011 01:10 mki wrote: Read the last line guys - my plea is more to event organizers than to the players. I'm sure that even with fines and rules in place that BM will continue - AND THAT'S OK! But organizers should enforce their rules and fine players just to keep the public image up.
Sure the NHL allows BM, however they do fine their players when things get out of hand. And look - emotion has not disappeared, players continue to do it.
You're pretty delusional.
The average NBA player (including the guys who dont play and sit on the bench rubbing one out all day) make $92,199 a week. When they get fined $20,000 which is roughly one days work do you think they really give a fuck? That scene they just made put them on the front page of the paper and/or got their name out there more. $20,000 was effectively their marketing fee and if you know anything about advertising, that's pretty cheap.
They make (on average) almost as much as I do in a year in a single week. When you're pulling 4.8 million a year a $20,000 fine is like joe schmoe with a $100k salary being fined $400.
You seem to think SC2 players make a decent amount of money which is simply not true in the current state of the game. MOST players who play sc2 make ZERO (0) income off of it because in order to get paid you need to place in the money spots... Those who do place in money can be seen in the Tournament Roundup and I'm not sure where a total prize winnings are, but I'd be surprised to see anyone over $120k.
2nd source is an article saying that the fines in the NBA don't do shit because even a big fine of $100k is < 1/250th of the players total salary just from playing the game. This doesn't include endorsements and advertising and whatever else they might be working on. Trying to compare an established sport to sc2 is pretty dumb.
On July 08 2011 01:10 mki wrote: Read the last line guys - my plea is more to event organizers than to the players. I'm sure that even with fines and rules in place that BM will continue - AND THAT'S OK! But organizers should enforce their rules and fine players just to keep the public image up.
Sure the NHL allows BM, however they do fine their players when things get out of hand. And look - emotion has not disappeared, players continue to do it.
You're pretty delusional.
The average NBA player (including the guys who dont play and sit on the bench rubbing one out all day) make $92,199 a week. When they get fined $20,000 which is roughly one days work do you think they really give a fuck? That scene they just made put them on the front page of the paper and/or got their name out there more. $20,000 was effectively their marketing fee and if you know anything about advertising, that's pretty cheap.
They make (on average) almost as much as I do in a year in a single week. When you're pulling 4.8 million a year a $20,000 fine is like joe schmoe with a $100k salary being fined $400.
You seem to think SC2 players make a decent amount of money which is simply not true in the current state of the game. MOST players who play sc2 make ZERO (0) income off of it because in order to get paid you need to place in the money spots... Those who do place in money can be seen in the Tournament Roundup and I'm not sure where a total prize winnings are, but I'd be surprised to see anyone over $120k.
2nd source is an article saying that the fines in the NBA don't do shit because even a big fine of $100k is < 1/250th of the players total salary just from playing the game. This doesn't include endorsements and advertising and whatever else they might be working on. Trying to compare an established sport to sc2 is pretty dumb.
The only place I talked about specific figures was with Counter-Strike 1.6.
I never talked about how much SC2 players should be fined for BM so I don't know where you assume I think that SC2 players make a "decent amount of money". But congratulations on passing your reading comprehension test. Having said this:
Pro SC2 players should still be fined a certain fee (I don't know what it should be) from time to time for public BM.
The bit about the contracts was interesting. That's the kind of professionalism I am interested in.
The bit about how BM is ruining ESPORTS, though...nah. Drama creates interest, IdrA telling HuK to fuck off (and HuK even messaging him was against the rules and pretty bm itself) is not going to dissuade any potential fans. There's no one we have to prove ourselves to, we don't have to become boring fucks to be mainstream.
I can't see how some relatively harmless BM is going to seriously hinder e-sports in general. I can't imagine a bunch of corporate big-wigs sitting around deciding if they want to sponsor EG, and one guy says "remember he said 'fuck off' that one time?" And everyone gasps, faints, jumps out windows, and ultimately decide not to sponsor the team.
Players like IdrA bring a lot of polarization to the scene, which generates content and attention for the scene, which is what sponsors love. Bad language isn't going to delegitimize the scene, but I can see cracking down and punishing players making some scenes too stiff. The leading reason why people liked the Homestory Cup (according to the TL poll) was because of the casual environment. If, at an MLG, some official came up to IdrA and wagged a finger at him after he flipped off MC, that would make a lot of people uncomfortable and ruin a great moment in the sport.
On July 08 2011 00:08 mki wrote: To grant kudo's where they are deserved it should be noted that the Electronic Sports League has fined teams in the past for delaying events. Recently, in the last season of the Intel Extreme Masters, Ukrainian side Natus Vincere was fined 20% from their overall prize winnings for being late to a match. Although this definitely sent a message, it needs to be done consistently rather than to just one team. The rule needs to become an enforced rule on a regular basis, rather than one episode of punishments.
Although an article, this is also a plea to event organizers and organizations like to modify some rules and regulations to help the growth of electronic sports. A fine on a to player might be negative in the short term, however in the long term it will build a more professional world for all of electronic sports. We're all in this together, and it is in the best interest of all of us for event organizers and organizations which support teams to encourage positive action.+ Show Spoiler +
Yea, kudo's to the organization that kicked out Naniwa for being late to games and turned around and changed rules to be able to get TLO to play.
ESL is not the best example, they just focus on minor things.
Complete ban on talking and somehow it works and is one of the most watched.
It's like saying that sex with a condom feels good, but sex without a condom feels better.
GSL's success is entirely due to them having the best player pool bar none. When players like MC have done throat cuts and breaking things over his knee it charged the crowd and people became a fan of his. Nestea and MC both have the same amount of GSL wins but MC has way more fans because he plays to them.
If we want esports to be taken seriously, we can't have people telling each other to fuck off in game chat. It's fine when it's such a selective niche market, but if/when it goes mainstream, it will suddenly not be tolerable.
You can argue all day with whether or not you think swear words are bad or whether or not drama is fun. I happen to enjoy them both quite a bit.
But that doesn't blind me to the fact that while I appreciate the lulz in these things, the real world does not.
People like IdrA are why ESPORTS have a reputation of only being for angry nerds.. Lets face it, if we want SC2 to grow and be mainstream, we need to attract the real sponsors! Not the companies selling keyboards and whatnot under the assumption that we're all nerds who need to shell out money for their junk.
I for one don't think becoming like the NFL should be the goal for the foreseeable future...the NFL had some intense growing pains before it became the pathetic prima donna league it is now (albeit profitable).
Esports will go through the same thing. You cannot hinder the scene by erasing its most marketable asset...the players' personalities. Handicapping the biggest draw would be BAD BUSINESS. Once Esports is raking in millions and families are starting to watch it on TV, then yea, a filter should be put in place. Until then, don't stunt it's growth with all the PCness.
On July 08 2011 01:14 Cerneo wrote: That makes even less sense though because the organizers want higher viewer counts and the way to build that is with drama and hype imo.
Wrong. Regardless of whatever convoluted market appeal it has, ALL tournament organizers make it clear in their terms of agreement that participants are not to start talking smack.
I don't remember any player being actually fined, but there have been a few cases where a player was barred from competing from excessive BM.
It's just rather silly thinking that they're going to encourage that shit.
Then why did MLG have a video of the Idra/MC showdown on a vod moments after it went down?
Because most people wouldn't consider that BM? Just some grandstanding. Some butthurt Idra fans would say it's BM, because he did the throat-slash-thumbs-down-"you're going down next, bro" gestures.
On July 08 2011 01:10 mki wrote: Read the last line guys - my plea is more to event organizers than to the players. I'm sure that even with fines and rules in place that BM will continue - AND THAT'S OK! But organizers should enforce their rules and fine players just to keep the public image up.
Sure the NHL allows BM, however they do fine their players when things get out of hand. And look - emotion has not disappeared, players continue to do it.
You're pretty delusional.
The average NBA player (including the guys who dont play and sit on the bench rubbing one out all day) make $92,199 a week. When they get fined $20,000 which is roughly one days work do you think they really give a fuck? That scene they just made put them on the front page of the paper and/or got their name out there more. $20,000 was effectively their marketing fee and if you know anything about advertising, that's pretty cheap.
They make (on average) almost as much as I do in a year in a single week. When you're pulling 4.8 million a year a $20,000 fine is like joe schmoe with a $100k salary being fined $400.
You seem to think SC2 players make a decent amount of money which is simply not true in the current state of the game. MOST players who play sc2 make ZERO (0) income off of it because in order to get paid you need to place in the money spots... Those who do place in money can be seen in the Tournament Roundup and I'm not sure where a total prize winnings are, but I'd be surprised to see anyone over $120k.
2nd source is an article saying that the fines in the NBA don't do shit because even a big fine of $100k is < 1/250th of the players total salary just from playing the game. This doesn't include endorsements and advertising and whatever else they might be working on. Trying to compare an established sport to sc2 is pretty dumb.
You're pretty delusional to think players/people like throwing money down the drain in any % of their income. No one likes a $400 dollar speeding ticket no matter how much you make.
i like the drama. Don't change it. im sorry if the F word offends people but. I guess there balls are just gonna have to drop a bit more and take it like a man.
On July 08 2011 01:35 mki wrote: Statements like this really make me sad about the overall maturity of our community.
"OMG. I don't like this. Everyone must not like this. If people in E-Sports are like that, EVERYONE WILL NOT LIKE E-SPORTS. MUST. WRITE. ARTICLE. NOW. And save E-SPORTS!"
On July 08 2011 01:35 mki wrote: Statements like this really make me sad about the overall maturity of our community.
"OMG. I don't like this. Everyone must not like this. If people in E-Sports are like that, EVERYONE WILL NOT LIKE E-SPORTS. MUST. WRITE. ARTICLE. NOW. And save E-SPORTS!"
On July 08 2011 01:37 VPCursed wrote: i like the drama. Don't change it. im sorry if the F word offends people but. I guess there balls are just gonna have to drop a bit more and take it like a man.
People should stop being offended by Forcefields, they are here to stay.
On July 08 2011 01:39 mki wrote: Exactly my point.
Then you're just blowing steam at nothing. We might have a problem if church nuns and our mothers ever become the core demographic, but as it stands most gamers don't really give a shit about that.
On July 08 2011 01:36 Ownos wrote:Because most people wouldn't consider that BM? Just some grandstanding. Some butthurt Idra fans would say it's BM, because he did the throat-slash-thumbs-down-"you're going down next, bro" gestures.
Was talking about Idra then giving him the finger.
Whatever the case, thats equally BM and imo, does nothing but add emotion and hype to the games and get the fans/casters fired up and thats a good thing.
Fun and entertainment is what gaming is all about and the idea of professionalising the industry repulses me. I believe it's pretty much perfect as is and I see no need to change, BM in the SC2 scene has never been anything serious, it's all a joke and part of our ~culture~ really. I'm not saying we are defined by BM or anything but it's certainly a small contributing factor that makes it interesting/amusing.
Wow, appreciate the writeup of the article, but in reality it lacks a ton of content to make a correlation between BM, SC2, and "esports". I don't think its necessarily fair to just accuse one person of being BM and how hes damaging the community and not talking about the people that provoke that BM, tell me, what are you going to do towards that? Is that not BM?
This is a good post from reddit I found from empath75:
The only reason that BM hasn't affected sponsorship is that the stakes are so low and nobody in the mainstream media is paying attention. All it will take is one article in the NYTimes about Intel sponsoring homophobic players, and pros calling people 'fags' in chat will stop cold, if they want to keep a sponsorship. And it will happen, eventually. It's an easy article to write, and will get plenty of attention for the first reporter that does it.
On July 08 2011 01:10 mki wrote: Read the last line guys - my plea is more to event organizers than to the players. I'm sure that even with fines and rules in place that BM will continue - AND THAT'S OK! But organizers should enforce their rules and fine players just to keep the public image up.
Sure the NHL allows BM, however they do fine their players when things get out of hand. And look - emotion has not disappeared, players continue to do it.
You're pretty delusional.
The average NBA player (including the guys who dont play and sit on the bench rubbing one out all day) make $92,199 a week. When they get fined $20,000 which is roughly one days work do you think they really give a fuck? That scene they just made put them on the front page of the paper and/or got their name out there more. $20,000 was effectively their marketing fee and if you know anything about advertising, that's pretty cheap.
They make (on average) almost as much as I do in a year in a single week. When you're pulling 4.8 million a year a $20,000 fine is like joe schmoe with a $100k salary being fined $400.
You seem to think SC2 players make a decent amount of money which is simply not true in the current state of the game. MOST players who play sc2 make ZERO (0) income off of it because in order to get paid you need to place in the money spots... Those who do place in money can be seen in the Tournament Roundup and I'm not sure where a total prize winnings are, but I'd be surprised to see anyone over $120k.
2nd source is an article saying that the fines in the NBA don't do shit because even a big fine of $100k is < 1/250th of the players total salary just from playing the game. This doesn't include endorsements and advertising and whatever else they might be working on. Trying to compare an established sport to sc2 is pretty dumb.
The only place I talked about specific figures was with Counter-Strike 1.6.
I never talked about how much SC2 players should be fined for BM so I don't know where you assume I think that SC2 players make a "decent amount of money". But congratulations on passing your reading comprehension test. Having said this:
Pro SC2 players should still be fined a certain fee (I don't know what it should be) from time to time for public BM.
So should i pm you my paypal so you can send me money for bming me? My reading comprehension is fine.
You're looking at fining a player who makes anywhere from $0 to $120,000 annually. I'm just wondering who you cannot see the inherent problems with this. Someone who makes $0 can be a total shit head because they can't be fined and someone who makes mid level $$ has to watch his mouth because he needs that money to pay his rent... It just seems like you're policing something that doesn't need to be policed and I'm getting the impression you're the only one who sees censorship in this scenario as a good thing.
Not only do the fans like seeing a little color to their games, but organizers get more views as a result. The only hope you have in pushing this through is if the people who buy ad slots are against it, but if you look at the sponsors for most of professional gaming outside of KR it's mostly gaming gear that will welcome a decent amount of BM.
On July 08 2011 00:08 mki wrote: To grant kudo's where they are deserved it should be noted that the Electronic Sports League has fined teams in the past for delaying events. Recently, in the last season of the Intel Extreme Masters, Ukrainian side Natus Vincere was fined 20% from their overall prize winnings for being late to a match. Although this definitely sent a message, it needs to be done consistently rather than to just one team. The rule needs to become an enforced rule on a regular basis, rather than one episode of punishments.
Although an article, this is also a plea to event organizers and organizations like to modify some rules and regulations to help the growth of electronic sports. A fine on a to player might be negative in the short term, however in the long term it will build a more professional world for all of electronic sports. We're all in this together, and it is in the best interest of all of us for event organizers and organizations which support teams to encourage positive action.+ Show Spoiler +
Yea, kudo's to the organization that kicked out Naniwa for being late to games and turned around and changed rules to be able to get TLO to play.
ESL is not the best example, they just focus on minor things.
They kicked out NaNiWa from EPS when they allowed him to play an EPS match outside of Germany and he said "he doesn't feel like doing so" . Thats what he got a lot of penalty points from and in addition to his already given penalty points he got kicked out of EPS.
While I agree on the contract stuff (each team should take care of its players and itself), I disagree on your position on manners in non-esports.
Take soccer, one of the worlds most popular sports, which also happens to be the sport with the worst manners possible. Punching eachother in the face, kicking, spitting, pretending like all this never happened to fool the ref, etc. A simply ' fuck you' is nothing compared to this.
Consider this and there little else to conclude that the BM in starcraft just adds to the drama and makes it more enjoyable (the last part of this sentence is my opinion).
I watched a show on HBO last weekend. It had two heavyweight boxers, who were about to fight for the belt, sitting down together face-to-face. It wasn't a show promoting good feelings, it was a show for these two to trash talk each other. One of the guys actually went as far as making shirts that had the heads of the of the other guy's family (his brothers are boxers too) on pikes.
I find that when you're spectating a sport that sets, specifically, two people (teams are not as immediately relatable) to compete against each other, a grudge builds loyalty and incredible interest.
The only reason that BM hasn't affected sponsorship is that the stakes are so low and nobody in the mainstream media is paying attention. All it will take is one article in the NYTimes about Intel sponsoring homophobic players, and pros calling people 'fags' in chat will stop cold, if they want to keep a sponsorship. And it will happen, eventually. It's an easy article to write, and will get plenty of attention for the first reporter that does it.
Not really considering many major athletes have said or done far worse and still have insane amounts of endorsements. Sponsors care about ROI, if its good enough that will ignore what a person does, if its not lolTigerWoods, they won't.
On July 08 2011 01:44 Morphs wrote: While I agree on the contract stuff (each team should take care of its players and itself), I disagree on your position on manners in non-esports.
Take soccer, one of the worlds most popular sports, which also happens to be the sport with the worst manners possible. Punching eachother in the face, kicking, spitting, pretending like all this never happened to fool the ref, etc. A simply ' fuck you' is nothing compared to this.
Consider this and there little else to conclude that the BM in starcraft just adds to the drama and makes it more enjoyable (the last part of this sentence is my opinion).
Whenever anything like this happens and is caught by the referee it is punished in soccer. Sure sometimes the ref doesn't catch it, but like I stated in the article the same can be true at LANs where two players also BM each other and the ref doesn't notice.
What I'm saying is - if they can, they punish it in soccer which isn't the case in esports.
Im fine with talking and taunting in chat, but they do need to curb the swearing. I personally have no problem with a good "Fuck You," but if some kids mom sees that and doesnt let him watch from then on, I kinda have a problem with that.
The only reason that BM hasn't affected sponsorship is that the stakes are so low and nobody in the mainstream media is paying attention. All it will take is one article in the NYTimes about Intel sponsoring homophobic players, and pros calling people 'fags' in chat will stop cold, if they want to keep a sponsorship. And it will happen, eventually. It's an easy article to write, and will get plenty of attention for the first reporter that does it.
"I need an argument. Ooooo I know! I'll go look it up on Reddit, surely someone will agree with me and have an informed opinion that will legitimize my entire argument!"
And honestly it's a dumb opinion to have. Unless IdrA has been cheating on 12 hookers or abusing zerglings, no one in the right mind is going to start getting all butthurt about a couple of swear words.
On July 08 2011 01:36 maliceee wrote: I for one don't think becoming like the NFL should be the goal for the foreseeable future...the NFL had some intense growing pains before it became the pathetic prima donna league it is now (albeit profitable).
Esports will go through the same thing. You cannot hinder the scene by erasing its most marketable asset...the players' personalities. Handicapping the biggest draw would be BAD BUSINESS. Once Esports is raking in millions and families are starting to watch it on TV, then yea, a filter should be put in place. Until then, don't stunt it's growth with all the PCness.
100% nailed it. Couldn't agree more with this. We simply aren't at that point yet.
On July 08 2011 01:35 mki wrote: Statements like this really make me sad about the overall maturity of our community.
"OMG. I don't like this. Everyone must not like this. If people in E-Sports are like that, EVERYONE WILL NOT LIKE E-SPORTS. MUST. WRITE. ARTICLE. NOW. And save E-SPORTS!"
Exactly my point.
Oh get off your high horse.
The last thing we need are more "bad words are killing ESPORTS" articles, I haven't witnessed anything that suggests it to be true.
You use IdrA as an example and act like he is being a detriment to his team while ignoring the fact that EG have probably the most stacked sponsor lineup of any team outside of Korea. Clearly his actions aren't scaring sponsors away.
And as has already been pointed out, MLG plugged the hell out of a video they uploaded of IdrA flipping MC off. You think their sponsors care about that?
I was on board with the article through the first few examples, players messing around with contracts is something that could definitely scare off sponsors, but some bad words?
On July 08 2011 01:34 Fiendish wrote: professionalism sucks, is no fun, and is not what most people that like esports care about
Statements like this really make me sad about the overall maturity of our community.
Firstly, your not some paragon of maturity to judge other people. Secondly, why must we be %100 serious about esports? Sure to people who have jobs in esports its important to treat it seriously since its your career, but to the general viewer esports is a hobby. They watch it to be entertained, and they are fans of players because of their personalities. If the viewers really are against bad manner, then idra wouldn't have the largest fan club in TL, and his stream wouldn't get 20k viewers as soon as he starts talking. The bm is part of what makes esports exciting, taking that away from it is detrimental.
On July 08 2011 01:44 mki wrote: This is a good post from reddit I found from empath75:
The only reason that BM hasn't affected sponsorship is that the stakes are so low and nobody in the mainstream media is paying attention. All it will take is one article in the NYTimes about Intel sponsoring homophobic players, and pros calling people 'fags' in chat will stop cold, if they want to keep a sponsorship. And it will happen, eventually. It's an easy article to write, and will get plenty of attention for the first reporter that does it.
Not really considering many major athletes have said or done far worse and still have insane amounts of endorsements. Sponsors care about ROI, if its good enough that will ignore what a person does, if its not lolTigerWoods, they won't.
I don't think I agree. Name me a professional athelete that was caught on tape calling people fags, and sponsors didn't care about it.
The only reason that BM hasn't affected sponsorship is that the stakes are so low and nobody in the mainstream media is paying attention. All it will take is one article in the NYTimes about Intel sponsoring homophobic players, and pros calling people 'fags' in chat will stop cold, if they want to keep a sponsorship. And it will happen, eventually. It's an easy article to write, and will get plenty of attention for the first reporter that does it.
"I need an argument. Ooooo I know! I'll go look it up on Reddit, surely someone will agree with me and have an informed opinion that will legitimize my entire argument!"
And honestly it's a dumb opinion to have. Unless IdrA has been cheating on 12 hookers or abusing zerglings, no one in the right mind is going to start getting all butthurt about a couple of swear words.
You're taking the whole thing out of proportion.
What is it, do you have a personal vendetta? I wasn't looking for an argument it was a post I found while looking through reddit which didn't have any relation to any post that someone had posted before. Stop assuming things.
On July 08 2011 01:52 mki wrote: What is it, do you have a personal vendetta? I wasn't looking for an argument it was a post I found while looking through reddit which didn't have any relation to any post that someone had posted before. Stop assuming things.
Ok. Whatever. Sorry I hurt your feelings there pal. Point is, this whole "bad words will kill E-Sports" prediction is as probable as the 2012 apocalypse.
On July 08 2011 01:44 mki wrote: This is a good post from reddit I found from empath75:
The only reason that BM hasn't affected sponsorship is that the stakes are so low and nobody in the mainstream media is paying attention. All it will take is one article in the NYTimes about Intel sponsoring homophobic players, and pros calling people 'fags' in chat will stop cold, if they want to keep a sponsorship. And it will happen, eventually. It's an easy article to write, and will get plenty of attention for the first reporter that does it.
Not really considering many major athletes have said or done far worse and still have insane amounts of endorsements. Sponsors care about ROI, if its good enough that will ignore what a person does, if its not lolTigerWoods, they won't.
I don't think I agree. Name me a professional athelete that was caught on tape calling people fags, and sponsors didn't care about it.
Kevin Garnett.
and I imagine if I looked, quite a few nba players. ever set remotely courtside like under row 15? It sounds pretty much exactly what 10 guys playing on a street court sounds like.
The only reason that BM hasn't affected sponsorship is that the stakes are so low and nobody in the mainstream media is paying attention. All it will take is one article in the NYTimes about Intel sponsoring homophobic players, and pros calling people 'fags' in chat will stop cold, if they want to keep a sponsorship. And it will happen, eventually. It's an easy article to write, and will get plenty of attention for the first reporter that does it.
That's why Michael Vick got his endorsement back with Nike and just won sportsman of the year.... yea i see what you mean.... no really.....
That's the problem about calling it eSports, truth is, as many of you have stated already, that you simply can't compare it to football, soccer or anything like that.
Professionalism is required even if we're talking about a niche "sport", and I think that has helped SC2 get more attention from outsiders (including sponsors and stuff) which is just great for the community in general, but I'd hate if SC2 turns into a whole bunch of regulations and guys in suits deciding to fine people for whatever reason they find appropiate... this is not the NFL, we have the option to just create our own thing with it, take the good parts of other organization systems and just bypass the other stupid irrelevant things.
BM is actually quite entertaining, it doesn't really get to the point of being hurtful, and it helps giving the players a more defined personality, one of the things I don't really love about eSports is the fact that you're just watching an interaction between two players through a computer/console, we don't get a face or anything apart from a random nickname, in order to get to know players we've had interviews and stuff to remind us that these aren't just events happening on a computer, but BM helps reinforce that in some cases, extending an otherwise more robot-like personality, that's why MC's throat slice, IdrA's "fuck off", Cruncher's "" really hyped things up, because all those things make you go deeper than just the computer interaction and see two humans duking it out in eSports, which is awesome.
Let the players build up their personalities by doing stuff like that instead of fining them and make them look all the same...
Michael Vick went to jail and had to go through hell to get all that shit back. Also, that award was given to him as an example to others for him to be an inspiration on how to turn your life around.
It's simple business, and you're letting your quest for a moral high ground get in the way of logic.
What's true is that if teams and events want to attract sponsors their players can't be BM'ing left and right. However, as long as the sponsors don't care it's fair game. This is not about some little kid's mom forbidding him from watching MLG because some guy said a nasty swear word.
Fact is, "Fuck off" once in a blue moon does not warrant causing a shit-storm. If it becomes a habit then MLG and EG will need to crack down, but I won't be surprised if EG already had a chat with IdrA about this.
Yet another one of these ridiculous articles about "Wahh! You hurt ESPORTS!"..
Honestly, who do you think the "General public" is made up of? Nuns and parents who refuse to let their children go to public school because it's a bad influence on them? The F bomb isn't anything new to anyone, and those who get offended by the occasional use of it need to get off their high horse. I could understand this if idra talked like this: + Show Spoiler +
"Good Fucking Luck you Fucking piece of Shit good for nothing son of a Bitch!"
The BM between players is what brings in viewers, which is what companies pitch to sponsors, which is what sponsors want to see. VIEWERS. Saying that we need to put an end to the one of the biggest draws in ESPORTS is just silly in my opinion.
If it happens in private by the side, away from officials, then that is a matter we can't control; however publicly we need to denounce such occurences.
I am in no way saying get rid of emotions. But not on our version of "national TV" meaning streams.
Where else can we find these emotions? If all the players desperately try to hide their real emotions in interviews or right after the game and all that, where will the honest emotions shine through?
It doesn't matter if they do it behind closed doors, becuase it's just that, behind closed doors. We want to see their emotions and feel empathy. Laugh with them, feel down with them, cheer for them.
You say it's BM to say "Fuck off", to me it'd be more BM to act really happy right in front of the losing guy when you just won. Am I saying that people should stop their ceremonies after games and just not smile at all? No, because that's what we want to see.
You're not speaking of anything "professional", you're speaking of emotionless, boring crap.
On July 08 2011 01:44 mki wrote: This is a good post from reddit I found from empath75:
The only reason that BM hasn't affected sponsorship is that the stakes are so low and nobody in the mainstream media is paying attention. All it will take is one article in the NYTimes about Intel sponsoring homophobic players, and pros calling people 'fags' in chat will stop cold, if they want to keep a sponsorship. And it will happen, eventually. It's an easy article to write, and will get plenty of attention for the first reporter that does it.
Not really considering many major athletes have said or done far worse and still have insane amounts of endorsements. Sponsors care about ROI, if its good enough that will ignore what a person does, if its not lolTigerWoods, they won't.
I don't think I agree. Name me a professional athelete that was caught on tape calling people fags, and sponsors didn't care about it.
Kevin Garnett.
and I imagine if I looked, quite a few nba players. ever set remotely courtside like under row 15? It sounds pretty much exactly what 10 guys playing on a street court sounds like.
I tried to look up the player/incident you're referencing, and all I found was vague and questionable video clips. It's not really the same as a clear and written statement displayed to the entire audience.
On July 08 2011 01:59 mki wrote: Michael Vick went to jail and had to go through hell to get all that shit back. Also, that award was given to him as an example to others for him to be an inspiration on how to turn your life around.
It's all PR. Nike endorsed him because he is good and hits a large audience. Bottom line.
On July 08 2011 01:44 mki wrote: This is a good post from reddit I found from empath75:
The only reason that BM hasn't affected sponsorship is that the stakes are so low and nobody in the mainstream media is paying attention. All it will take is one article in the NYTimes about Intel sponsoring homophobic players, and pros calling people 'fags' in chat will stop cold, if they want to keep a sponsorship. And it will happen, eventually. It's an easy article to write, and will get plenty of attention for the first reporter that does it.
Not really considering many major athletes have said or done far worse and still have insane amounts of endorsements. Sponsors care about ROI, if its good enough that will ignore what a person does, if its not lolTigerWoods, they won't.
I don't think I agree. Name me a professional athelete that was caught on tape calling people fags, and sponsors didn't care about it.
Quick google search indicates that he was not dropped by any sponsors as a consequence of this. Did the sponsors care? Not all that much, apparently.
Honestly if you take away the HuK v Idra Drama, the bad stream (which MLG would hope you forgot) and Naniwa being the winner, what do you remember about MLG Dallas?
My question is: Where has anyone seen BM turn someone away from watching a specific event or future events?
I severely doubt someone sane would stop watching an event or proceed to boycott others because of BM. TBH its the opposite, IdrA's games draw more crowds (love him or hate him) to games because they want to watch him and are emotionally involved in the games.
Long story short, there is no proof that BM is turning away people from e-sports so we should let whats doing well continue to do well. Don't fix what isn't broken
On July 08 2011 02:02 Slusher wrote: Honestly if you take away the HuK v Idra Drama, the bad stream (which MLG would hope you forgot) and Naniwa being the winner, what do you remember about MLG Dallas?
On July 08 2011 01:44 mki wrote: This is a good post from reddit I found from empath75:
The only reason that BM hasn't affected sponsorship is that the stakes are so low and nobody in the mainstream media is paying attention. All it will take is one article in the NYTimes about Intel sponsoring homophobic players, and pros calling people 'fags' in chat will stop cold, if they want to keep a sponsorship. And it will happen, eventually. It's an easy article to write, and will get plenty of attention for the first reporter that does it.
Not really considering many major athletes have said or done far worse and still have insane amounts of endorsements. Sponsors care about ROI, if its good enough that will ignore what a person does, if its not lolTigerWoods, they won't.
I don't think I agree. Name me a professional athelete that was caught on tape calling people fags, and sponsors didn't care about it.
On July 08 2011 01:44 Slusher wrote: I don't know about you but I fucking can't get enough of traditional sports players saying they are just going to take it game by game.
and that upcoming game against the team that knocked them out of the playoffs last year. Going to prepare hard just like any other week.
can't forget the upcoming game against the cream puff opponent, "Important not to look ahead to the following week until we get there"
oh man professionalism is so mesmerizing.
Yeah, man. Bad publicity is good publicity. It gets your name out! Free advertising! Seems to work well for the LA Lakers after acting like retards when they got swept. Lebron James is just rolling in the publicity. Clearly no one gave a shit about the Mavs. They need to elbow people more.
On July 08 2011 01:44 Slusher wrote: I don't know about you but I fucking can't get enough of traditional sports players saying they are just going to take it game by game.
and that upcoming game against the team that knocked them out of the playoffs last year. Going to prepare hard just like any other week.
can't forget the upcoming game against the cream puff opponent, "Important not to look ahead to the following week until we get there"
oh man professionalism is so mesmerizing.
Yeah, man. Bad publicity is good publicity. It gets your name out! Free advertising! Seems to work well for the LA Lakers after acting like retards when they got swept. Lebron James is just rolling in the publicity. Clearly no one gave a shit about the Mavs. They need to elbow people more.
Are you posting from some fantasy world where Mark Cuban doesn't exist?
I don't know if anyone said this, but you do realize, in the Huk/Idra chat, that Huk started the chat with BM, and idra only retorted back to it, I guess if you did realize that you wouldn't write a whole paragraph on how MLG and other organizations should punish IDRA.
On July 08 2011 02:02 Slusher wrote: Honestly if you take away the HuK v Idra Drama, the bad stream (which MLG would hope you forgot) and Naniwa being the winner, what do you remember about MLG Dallas?
iNcontroL having about 40 supply hiding in the corner of TLO's base. That was hilarious.
On July 08 2011 01:44 Slusher wrote: I don't know about you but I fucking can't get enough of traditional sports players saying they are just going to take it game by game.
and that upcoming game against the team that knocked them out of the playoffs last year. Going to prepare hard just like any other week.
can't forget the upcoming game against the cream puff opponent, "Important not to look ahead to the following week until we get there"
oh man professionalism is so mesmerizing.
Yeah, man. Bad publicity is good publicity. It gets your name out! Free advertising! Seems to work well for the LA Lakers after acting like retards when they got swept. Lebron James is just rolling in the publicity. Clearly no one gave a shit about the Mavs. They need to elbow people more.
Are you posting from some fantasy world where Mark Cuban doesn't exist?
Yeah, Mark Cuban defending his team is BM. I'm starting to think people's definition of BM is a bit loose...
I think BM is definitely something to keep an eye on.. but probably doesn't need a bunch of regulations at this point...
personally I don't think any of the examples listed in the original article would drive anyone away from the scene.... now destiny and his words , on the other hand...
I think if the sponsorship dollars and audience get bigger this will happen naturally, but no need to 'clamp down' at this point.. the community is vocal enough to let people know when they have crossed the line (again, see destiny)
On July 08 2011 02:03 darcevader88 wrote: swearing being this huge negative thing is the biggest joke of a society where murder is in the #1 selling video game
It's like in TF2 "family servers" where you'll get kicked if you say "fuck" in the heat of the moment but it's perfectly fine to stab people in the back and immolate people alive.
I can't really explain my position much as I'm pretty much in a grey area. I was mostly fine with Idra being childish until he didn't GG to Boxer... Seriously, you have to GG to Boxer... But saying "fuck off" to Huk is fine, though I really like Huk, I don't think it's that bad.
On July 08 2011 02:11 Motat wrote: I don't know if anyone said this, but you do realize, in the Huk/Idra chat, that Huk started the chat with BM, and idra only retorted back to it, I guess if you did realize that you wouldn't write a whole paragraph on how MLG and other organizations should punish IDRA.
"u realize" "most of that army"
is BM now? OK I think I need to exit this thread now haha
On July 08 2011 00:38 Hardigan wrote: I don't know whats more unprofessional: a little swear word, telling the opponent to play and not talk, or bragging about a win (5 minutes ago) in your face...
probably both.
But: we are all happy for that (including MLG) as this creates drama
Yeah really off-put when OP tries to tie in IdrA's BM in his post but shows a picture of HuK BMing the shit out of IdrA in the deciding match of the series.
On July 08 2011 02:11 Motat wrote: I don't know if anyone said this, but you do realize, in the Huk/Idra chat, that Huk started the chat with BM, and idra only retorted back to it, I guess if you did realize that you wouldn't write a whole paragraph on how MLG and other organizations should punish IDRA.
"u realize" "most of that army"
is BM now? OK I think I need to exit this thread now haha
You should probally read MLG's rule book. Talking in a game outside of sportsman like conduct, "gg gl hf," is soposed to be an elimination. So yes in this venue its BM. In fact its always been BM to rub your win in your opponents face. Look at CombatEx.
On July 08 2011 02:11 Motat wrote: I don't know if anyone said this, but you do realize, in the Huk/Idra chat, that Huk started the chat with BM, and idra only retorted back to it, I guess if you did realize that you wouldn't write a whole paragraph on how MLG and other organizations should punish IDRA.
"u realize" "most of that army"
is BM now? OK I think I need to exit this thread now haha
Rubbing your previous win in an opponents face while a game is ongoing seems pretty BM to me. Not that I care though.
Yay, another "killing esports" thread, only slightly disguised.
Trashtalking and profanity has it's place in e-sports, just like it has in regular sport. I love it so much every time IdrA shows some real emotions, every time MC is cocky on stage, every time people do ceremonies etc. Don't go censoring that shit because "it's not professional".
On July 08 2011 00:37 bubblegumbo wrote: There is a reason why professional sportmen don't act like 12 year old BM children when they are national TV.
Most sports often do though, even football, and that's good.
OK, I'm about to open up a new thread about this. Nowhere do I state that BM has NO PLACE in e-sports. I put in my article that yes, I do see that emotions should be present in e-sports. However they should not be broadcast in public eye on stream. Do you see a player say FUCK YOU on camera? No - you only hear about it later from news outlets.
I am definitely of the same opinion as the OP. Thanks for writing that great article since you basically sum up my thoughts on that issue. What I define as BM in e-sports is literally the lack of manners, esp insulting other people (didnt your parents teach you not to insult anyone?). I dont care if a player doesnt type "gg" after a lost game but you must never insult other people. ESPECIALLY not when you talk about someone in a cast to many thousand viewers (as I think Idra did with Cruncher on NASL).
i hope there is/will be tournaments where they don't censor anything. or have a clean version and then a explicit version for us to decide what version to watch. i just don't think bm destroys the growth of e-sports. it seems though that tournaments are going towards the "bm is bad" side.
Didn't we have this discussion like 10 times already?
This isn't the NFL, this isn't some Golf-event where swearing is frowned upon. We're just a couple of nerds playing a computergame and the best of us get payed for it because there is a minute demographic that watches them. People need to diverge from the notion of e-sports being huge and mainstream, it's not going to happen.
Such leagues MUST forbid such public disrespect and fine IdrA. A message needs to be sent
Biggest bullshit ive ever read... and stop comparing pro gamers with football pro's who have millions of fans watching and get paid millions for it aswell.
Bm makes character, and what exactly gets viewers ? Guys like Destiny, Idra, Rivals, bm, drama etc,
A good example would something like: Huk vs Idra or some simular BM game would/has automatically get 5x more viewers than a normal mannered game between kiwikaki vs Tyler.
Nobody besides the ultimate koreans have the same fanbase as Idra, and Destiny is also a good example seeing that he isnt even in the top players NA list yet his fanbase is one of the biggest.
So, this idea makes no sense at all, this is Esports... not Nba, not Nfl, not the eu cup or something that millions of kids and adults watch every day live. This is a computergame and the competitive scene (which is quite small today, compared to sc1) would only grow if it included more Bm and interesting 'storylines' kinda like the same reason WWE has any viewers at all. Sportsmanship in Esports makes no difference at all.
And also, to be fair, there is a difference between IdrA and Deezer/combatx.
Loosing a viewer here and there because they saw a curse word when watching MLG streamed is better than literally killing the most fun part about tournys.
However there is a major difference in professional sports. Bad manners in traditional sports are very private and hidden. If bad manners or disrespect are noted by an official, there are always fines imposed in traditional sports!
Really? I don't watch a lot of international sports, but I have a hard time believing that athletes on the other side of the pond don't talk shit to each other. Trash talk is very common here in the States and the players don't get fined (unless it's for something outrageous). Why should e-sports be any different. I only think players should get fined if thing turn violent.
I think you are confusing the definitions of professionalism and manner. Professionalism in sports actually includes "bad manners". It increases competition between the competitors and can drive higher interest in the matches and the players.
Your criticism of Idra is not his lack of professionalism but his use of offensive language. Let me remind you that SC2 is a T rated game. Let me also remind you that Huk is the one who violated the rules and drew a response from Idra. Your comparison between between pro sports and esports consequences is also flawed. Bad manner on the field of play is not met with a fine; it is met with a penalty. Only extreme examples of BM are met with actual fines. In the SC2 esports I have watched, there has not been an example of BM worthy of a fine.
You seem to think that trash talk / BM never occurs on camera or is promoted by professional sports but what about the ufc? Do you realize how many fights are hyped up with trash talk before the event? People love rivalries and the attention they bring far outweighs the small minority of people who will be offended by a little trash talk.
Wow. I can't believe most of the replies to the OP are so stupid. A lot of you guys can't seem to see the difference between "drawing a line" and "what the line is". Organizations should draw a clear line or else their fines will be on a personal/daily basis. What is that line? That's for the organization to decide isn't it? This has NOTHING to do with morality... It has EVERYTHING to do with providing entertainment media. I'm sure all organizations would be adverse to players shouting racial slurs. We can all agree on that. We can all agree that a line needs to be drawn.
Go ahead and start shouting specifics on what should and what shouldn't allowed. That's a cool story bro. Go ahead and argue about it as well for no reason. This is not what this article was about. It's about a certain consistency in rules and punishments that organizations should enforce.
Great article mki. I'm glad you're not afraid to speak about the real issues instead of the usual fluff articles these forum warriors are used to.
The rest of you that started treating mki like one of your parents, stomping your feet and crying that you want to stay up past your bedtime: You should be ashamed of yourself.
The people who watch the streams don't give a shit about the swearing and professionalism, if anything it makes the matches more tense and hypes up events.
Capitalising "MUST" and using the imperative doesn't make the point any more valid, it's just annoying to read.
The sponsors want the attention and the attention is where the BM is at.
On July 08 2011 02:30 willoc wrote: The rest of you that started treating mki like one of your parents, stomping your feet and crying that you want to stay up past your bedtime: You should be ashamed of yourself.
I sincerely apologize for not posting "you wrote a fan-fucking-tastic article." I didn't know that we were supposed to be giving him warm fuzzies all around, completely my fault.
Rhere is a difference between being a popular nerd with a personality as opposed to a dumb prick that acts like a 12year old BM racist white kid in front of thousands of people, including your potential sponsors and family. Using Kobe and Kevin Garnet as examples is just stupid, they are famous already and can almost get away with anything as long as the media don't catch them( in those example links, they weren't and Garnett's case it was off the record as well). Those of you using Kobe as an example forgot why he had make a big public apology for a while ago, or Tiger Woods? Yes they were in danger of losing sponsorships then and it was very well covered, and they had to cover their ass by apologizing. In the end public figures need to act with some level of decency.
Don't give nerds a bad name, there are plenty of great progamers out there like Boxer and Jaedong who are well-loved despite being very normal and well mannered. Some of you need to grow up and see how people would react to you if you act like the way you do in Battlenet at work or in front of many people. Being a progamer is a job, not a joke.
Totally agreed with the article and surprised how many posts nitpick/disagree with it. There's a reason professional sport is so strict on BM and it's not about imposing morals. Simply, if you want eSports to attract sponsors that target the younger demographics you need a scene where typing 'fuck off' at your opponent in game chat is unacceptable and punished.
On July 08 2011 02:30 willoc wrote: The rest of you that started treating mki like one of your parents, stomping your feet and crying that you want to stay up past your bedtime: You should be ashamed of yourself.
I sincerely apologize for not posting "you wrote a fan-fucking-tastic article." I didn't know that we were supposed to be giving him warm fuzzies all around, completely my fault.
T_T?
You're admitting that you were acting like a child or are you failing to read the sentence you just quoted?
The only reason that BM hasn't affected sponsorship is that the stakes are so low and nobody in the mainstream media is paying attention. All it will take is one article in the NYTimes about Intel sponsoring homophobic players, and pros calling people 'fags' in chat will stop cold, if they want to keep a sponsorship. And it will happen, eventually. It's an easy article to write, and will get plenty of attention for the first reporter that does it.
"I need an argument. Ooooo I know! I'll go look it up on Reddit, surely someone will agree with me and have an informed opinion that will legitimize my entire argument!"
And honestly it's a dumb opinion to have. Unless IdrA has been cheating on 12 hookers or abusing zerglings, no one in the right mind is going to start getting all butthurt about a couple of swear words.
You're taking the whole thing out of proportion.
What is it, do you have a personal vendetta? I wasn't looking for an argument it was a post I found while looking through reddit which didn't have any relation to any post that someone had posted before. Stop assuming things.
I think his issue, and probably the issue many people are having, is that your article doesn't do a good job of explaining your reasoning behind your thesis. I think that you assume that your point is obvious and therefore doesn't need explanation, but as is obvious from most of the replies here that is not true. If you don't argue the concept of censoring and professionalism itself, all you are doing is stating your opinion. But just stating your opinion is not your goal here. Your goal here is to inspire people to take action or see things your way (see: argument or persuasive article), hence, saying things like, "it's my opinion therefore it's biased" is not enough. You need to provide evidence, make more claims than your initial thesis, and most of all define and develop your idea.
You never explain why "unprofessionalism" is bad. Trust me, you don't. I'm looking at the article right now. There is not one sentence dedicated to explaining why this is so. Not one.
You say that BM and actions of the like should be denounced when possible, and mention that "the community's reaction was luckily very negative to this whole ordeal..." regarding the contracts issue. This is obviously an example of your stances on these issues and what you approve/disapprove of. But once again you do not tell me why this is the "right" stance to have on this.
You complain that major organizations do not take BM seriously enough and that traditional/"professional" sports keep manners hidden or private. You say that Starcraft is not currently like that, and that " The same needs to become true for electronic sports." .. Why? Stop telling me what I NEED to do, what MUST be done, and what SHOULD be true without telling me why. I KNOW that you want things a certain way, but you have to prove that your way is superior in some way and way. Maybe it's inferior, but argue that. You don't argue anything, simply state your views. You definitely have the right to state your views, but you cannot expect people to see things your way without arguing morally, logically, etc.
For example, I think that BM at this point in Starcraft 2 is helping it. From reading through several forums I have seen evidence of it igniting passion in spectators (positive or negative). I do not believe Starcraft's current audience is easily offended, and therefore companies who sponsor Starcraft will continue to do so and do not incur much more risk doing so. I think that censorship in general is a dumb idea because I believe it falls on the viewers/recipients to decide what is acceptable or not. No sweeping generalization will ever please everyone, but to think that popular opinion (which is what defines "acceptable") sets the standards for the filters that decide what information I get to receive is absurd in my opinion.
You don't offer evidence to dispute the logical or philosophical parts that constitute my opinion (notice, not argument). I am willing to bet that anyone who reads your article (your target audience as stated at the end) and has the power to do anything about it will be testing your argument against their logic, their philosophy, and their biases. If you don't challenge their views, how do you expect to change them?
So then the issue becomes, why did you write the article in the first place? It is likely not going to achieve your goal, you did not develop any novel ,or any, ideas, and you're apparently not swaying even the casual readers of this forum. The response you're receiving isn't about you. It is about the article. People will argue about anything, but in order to have a good discussion you need to have a clear way of presenting information/arguments to one another. I know that you have this idea in your head, but all we get to see is the information placed in front of us. There is only so much that we can deduce without risking misinterpretation or wild assumptions. People are angry because you have chosen a stance that is not popular without taking the time or effort to actually say anything. People have the same reaction to those who tell everyone they're going to hell on the train (I live in NYC) because they're not of the same religion, people who say that being gay is wrong using the argument "Marriage is sacred," and the list goes on and on. These are perfectly valid opinions, but don't expect me to accept them without any discussion or evidence. Let us at least rationalize for a bit.
I repeat myself, but this is because I think this is important for both you and whoever else decides to write up their opinion in an "article." If you're attempting to sway beliefs, you have to argue properly (as in using evidence, clear flows of logic, anything else I mentioned before - and more!). Bad writing (which is what this is) does not contribute much to more to E-Sports than the traffic it brings to random threads on TeamLiquid. I would even go so far as to argue that bad writing and articles such as these are BAD FOR E-SPORTS (hahaha, I said it), but that would require more thought, effort, research and most of all time which I do not have as I have to go get my passport application handed in.
In case this wasn't clear (since I'm kind of all over the place), I claim that people are reacting on the quality of your writing rather than your opinion (since it isn't developed at all in the article). Therefore expect people to not take it seriously, and for people to react negatively when you add in bits and pieces of your argument as you respond to posts. You should not develop your idea in your replies, they should be fairly clear from the "get-go."
I look forward to seeing more "high quality" opinionated articles from people in the future. Gotta go!
I don't mind BM as it brings a lot of entertainment to the sport. We shouldn't change the spirit of the game to suit traditional sports. Or else it won't be the lovely E-Sports we have today. Fining people for saying fuck off won't bring new people to the sports.
On July 08 2011 00:57 Chibithor wrote: You're stating things and assuming the reader agrees. Saying things like 'Such leagues MUST forbid such public disrespect and fine IdrA' without giving any other reason than that sports do it, which isn't a compelling argument for me at all. Besides, surely you would want HuK fined just as much? He's obviously provoking Idra and is just as much BM, not that I mind. I'm an idra fan myself, I think his matches and rivalries are very fun to follow.
It's my opinion. I'm going to be one-sided about my opinion man...
You didn't justify your opinion in any way though, and that was my problem. I could just say this blog is wrong and leave it that, too.
I have a pretty big problem with you article. You cite many example of things happening in-game, such as idra and huk at mlg Dallas. Its fine to not be happy with the language yourself, and if they continued saying that stuff in a post game interview it would be one thing. However; if your going to count sc2 tournaments at the same level as a professional football, or any sport for that matter, then you need to understand limitations.
By that I mean that in game trash talk and cursing between players is allowed, in fact its encouraged in most sports. You don't see a nfl player getting fined because he says "fuck you" after a dirty hit. You see them getting fined when talking to the media, or showboating after a touchdown excessively. But if the players have passion in game, and they leave it on the field, or in this case, in the game, then it should be allowed.
I'm not one for encouraging random drama, but yeah it pumps me the hell up when I see ndamukong suh celebrate after a big sack. Now, after the game if he's still talking about it even though it was just a 2nd and 4 in the middle of the 2nd, thats when I have a problem. If huk wants to laugh at idra, and get idra on tilt, then let him. I have a problem if after the games are done they're still saying fuck huk. Instead Idra just claims huk can't beat him in a real game. Thats professional.
Overall, there's no argument that there needs to be a solid level of professionalism, however I disagree with where you were drawing the line.
p.s. just re-read the op and finishing with this: your completely wrong about the fact that referees punish players based on words. They only do it based on actions 90% of the time. Look at 2006 world cup, Zidane headbutts and gets kicked out. Guy who called his mother and sister a whore doesn't. Any hockey game, no penalties for yelling at each other, hit him and your going in the box. Football, after the play and before trash talk all the time. If you hit a player after the play though, thats a penalty.
I just think that they should either use the language filter for Tournament games, or they should at least have warnings for the streams that wont use a filter. Kids can watch so easily and it isn't a great example for them. My mom works in a school and when kids are already telling teachers to "Fuck Off!" at like 8 years old, there's a problem, no?
I don't have a problem with the BM to be honest. Like everyone said, it brings out true emotion and creates some drama. I just think that the streams should be more careful and try to hide it, or at least put out a warning, so parents will know if their kids should be allowed to watch.
Also, i know many people like to watch IdrA for his BM, but I'm pretty sure his number of fans would drop greatly if he wasn't such an amazing player. Who would follow a bad SC2 player who just gets pissed at everyone? His BM is kinda more of a bonus in my opinion.
It might be a cultural thing, but I really don't understand people who justify players behaving like an ass, or even worse, encourage it. I don't understand them on a very basic level.
So one player types "fuck off" to the other in chat (or rl), and there's this spectator, a fan, that goes "wow, this is sooo much more fun now, there's now this whole storyline between those two which makes my experience so much better" in his head. To me, this kind of attitude is weird and completely nonsensical.
It's like a giant mental erection of sorts induced by years of being mindfucked by the western entertainment media which is utter trash for the most part, driven by trash principles - drama sells, sex sells, awful humor sells, stereotypes sell, basically everything that's fucked up... yup, it sells. That's the only explanation I can come up with.
The weirdest (and somewhat amusing) thing about it is the sheer abuse of words. You can literally translate things from the "media language" to what they actually mean. So you have things like:
- He has a big personality. (he behaves like an asshole) - He's boring. (he's a nice guy that may or may not be actually boring) - The two of them have a storyline going. (two personalities guys continuously behaving like assholes in front of each other and the crowd) - He shows emotion. (the emotion is usually hate or anger - others don't really matter) - He is very competitive. (he's just a sore loser and not necessarily more competitive than the rest). - He is honest, he tells it like it is. (his arguments are obnoxiously disrespectful and he may or may not actually be honest - or right)
It's a whole bloody process of spinning behaviors and habits that are inherently socially wrong into something that's actually positive. You actually can see all of the above examples in this very thread.
One of the most painful things to read for me lately (related to this issue at least) were the comments in the State of the Game thread about how all the hosts now are "boring". If you could bring any people of choice on a podcast, you still wouldn't have the collective strength of personality and passion for the game that Tyler, Day9 and Artosis have, but there are people who actually don't see that.
To each his own, I guess. At least I'll always have the Korean scene.
On July 08 2011 02:35 Scarecrow wrote: Totally agreed with the article and surprised how many posts nitpick/disagree with it. There's a reason professional sport is so strict on BM and it's not about imposing morals. Simply, if you want eSports to attract sponsors that target the younger demographics you need a scene where typing 'fuck off' at your opponent in game chat is unacceptable and punished.
What? How young of an audience do you think companies who sponsor esports would target? The game is rated T and the majority of people it would appeal to most likely has no problem with swear words aside from those on the internet who for whatever reason have this idea that swearing is going to kill esports. Do you honestly believe the people who get offended at "fuck off" wouldn't have a problem with humans being killed / blown up / ripped apart by various aliens?
Bad manner on the field of play is not met with a fine; it is met with a penalty. Only extreme examples of BM are met with actual fines. In the SC2 esports I have watched, there has not been an example of BM worthy of a fine.
Wrong, football fines players all the time for on-field antics, Basketball does it too. Baseball is the one that doesn't really go that path.
I'm not sure why foreign tournaments allow in game chat at all. Huk was just as much in fault as idra, you can't be like "Oh did you see how badly i destroyed you that last game and how u left cus i fooled u LOLOLOLL" and not expect a response like idra's.
This article is ridiculous. The difference between major sports and Starcraft 2 is that if say Wayne Rooney gets fined 100 grand for swearing into a camera, thats not even a dent in his bank balance. Do you honestly want to fine players who scrape by just because they are dedicated to e-sports?
The best example I can think of is the Haye/Klitchsko fight on Saturday. It was one of the highest grossing boxing events of all time, the crowd was huge, I personally watched it in a pub where everyone was going insane, and did you see the back and forth before that fight? I think you need to keep your opinions to yourself. Not everyone (or even most people) buy into the stuff you are saying.
On July 08 2011 02:41 ronpaul012 wrote: p.s. just re-read the op and finishing with this: your completely wrong about the fact that referees punish players based on words. They only do it based on actions 90% of the time. Look at 2006 world cup, Zidane headbutts and gets kicked out. Guy who called his mother and sister a whore doesn't. Any hockey game, no penalties for yelling at each other, hit him and your going in the box. Football, after the play and before trash talk all the time. If you hit a player after the play though, thats a penalty.
Indeed. The kind of shit football players say to each other before plays is, to put it lightly, very mean.
I wasn't aware saying "fuck off" after being taunted by your opponent automatically made you the worst mannered person in esports. Your article is an editorial that presents itself like an essay. It is a rant disguised as an argument. It is full of trite, meaningless one-liners and unsubstantiated claims. I would be surprised if you convinced a single person that you were right if they didn't already agree with you. I postponed a shit to read your article and write this response and I regret it.
ronpaul012, I agree that most of the time its the retaliating player that gets the penalty, but if they have evidence of what was said, the player in question will get fined AFTER the game.
Can u imagine what would happen if players would be running to refs crying "he said this to me, n he said that". It would be a mess.
Also, if the referee would have heard Materazzi (vs Zidane), he would have gotten kicked out too, no doubt. But yeah, Refs are human and they dont always catch these things...
Anyways, back to SC2, the difference with hockey/soccer/football players saying stuff during a game is that it usually isnt broadcasted to the whole arena and audience. But in SC2, its right there on the screen for everyone to see.
I dont want to the BM to stop, it absolutely makes games and future rematches more exciting, but I think that because its shown to everyone (instead of being just between the 2 players) its a little bit in the wrong. A language filter would be a small solution here so atleast the words FUCK YOU dont pop out lol
interesting how people can never imagine and accept to treat people fairly online just like how they'd treat someone in real life. why is the tolerance level different when online? only because it stays anonymous? you wouldn't do the thing in real life and doing it online is acceptable.
people's reactions and manners stay the same despite being online or offline. it's just basic manners. swearing at people were never a form of basic manners.
and by the way, drogba was SERIOUSLY punished after swearing in front of the camera after the champions league game last year (or was it 2 years ago)...
On July 08 2011 02:46 Trowa127 wrote: Do you honestly want to fine players who scrape by just because they are dedicated to e-sports?
Ha, this one I haven't heard before. "Dedicated to e-sports".
No, nobody wants to fine people dedicated to e-sports. The OP talks about fining people who are obnoxious in public and major live events.
People who have given up other life oppurtunities such as going to university or getting jobs to be proffessional starcraft 2 players. Don't you think that is dedication?
eSports is not entirely the same as NFL or other sports. Some things are exceptional, like smack talk/ trash talk. If someone is raging and demolishs their booth, yeah I would see that as a fine. Or someone physically hits someone or threatens them in game, then yeah. But smack talk and lol stuff is not extreme enough to constitute a rule. eSports needs some drama, even if its just pretend. It's both entertaining and meaningful in a way.
Wow, this is a terrible thread. Do you think anyone wants to fucking watch terrible censored mainstream television? No, we want to watch starcraft. We're on the fucking internet dude.
If you want stuffy "professional" puritan broadcasts, maybe you should start watching local church get-togethers.
I don't understand how that is the "biggest example" of being bad mannered, you lose a game find out you shouldn't of lost, then someone points it out and laughs. Would make me upset as well, but then again, wasn't the nicest way to respond either.
The only reason that BM hasn't affected sponsorship is that the stakes are so low and nobody in the mainstream media is paying attention. All it will take is one article in the NYTimes about Intel sponsoring homophobic players, and pros calling people 'fags' in chat will stop cold, if they want to keep a sponsorship. And it will happen, eventually. It's an easy article to write, and will get plenty of attention for the first reporter that does it.
"I need an argument. Ooooo I know! I'll go look it up on Reddit, surely someone will agree with me and have an informed opinion that will legitimize my entire argument!"
And honestly it's a dumb opinion to have. Unless IdrA has been cheating on 12 hookers or abusing zerglings, no one in the right mind is going to start getting all butthurt about a couple of swear words.
You're taking the whole thing out of proportion.
What is it, do you have a personal vendetta? I wasn't looking for an argument it was a post I found while looking through reddit which didn't have any relation to any post that someone had posted before. Stop assuming things.
I think his issue, and probably the issue many people are having, is that your article doesn't do a good job of explaining your reasoning behind your thesis. I think that you assume that your point is obvious and therefore doesn't need explanation, but as is obvious from most of the replies here that is not true. If you don't argue the concept of censoring and professionalism itself, all you are doing is stating your opinion. But just stating your opinion is not your goal here. Your goal here is to inspire people to take action or see things your way (see: argument or persuasive article), hence, saying things like, "it's my opinion therefore it's biased" is not enough. You need to provide evidence, make more claims than your initial thesis, and most of all define and develop your idea.
You never explain why "unprofessionalism" is bad. Trust me, you don't. I'm looking at the article right now. There is not one sentence dedicated to explaining why this is so. Not one.
You say that BM and actions of the like should be denounced when possible, and mention that "the community's reaction was luckily very negative to this whole ordeal..." regarding the contracts issue. This is obviously an example of your stances on these issues and what you approve/disapprove of. But once again you do not tell me why this is the "right" stance to have on this.
You complain that major organizations do not take BM seriously enough and that traditional/"professional" sports keep manners hidden or private. You say that Starcraft is not currently like that, and that " The same needs to become true for electronic sports." .. Why? Stop telling me what I NEED to do, what MUST be done, and what SHOULD be true without telling me why. I KNOW that you want things a certain way, but you have to prove that your way is superior in some way and way. Maybe it's inferior, but argue that. You don't argue anything, simply state your views. You definitely have the right to state your views, but you cannot expect people to see things your way without arguing morally, logically, etc.
For example, I think that BM at this point in Starcraft 2 is helping it. From reading through several forums I have seen evidence of it igniting passion in spectators (positive or negative). I do not believe Starcraft's current audience is easily offended, and therefore companies who sponsor Starcraft will continue to do so and do not incur much more risk doing so. I think that censorship in general is a dumb idea because I believe it falls on the viewers/recipients to decide what is acceptable or not. No sweeping generalization will ever please everyone, but to think that popular opinion (which is what defines "acceptable") sets the standards for the filters that decide what information I get to receive is absurd in my opinion.
You don't offer evidence to dispute the logical or philosophical parts that constitute my opinion (notice, not argument). I am willing to bet that anyone who reads your article (your target audience as stated at the end) and has the power to do anything about it will be testing your argument against their logic, their philosophy, and their biases. If you don't challenge their views, how do you expect to change them?
So then the issue becomes, why did you write the article in the first place? It is likely not going to achieve your goal, you did not develop any novel ,or any, ideas, and you're apparently not swaying even the casual readers of this forum. The response you're receiving isn't about you. It is about the article. People will argue about anything, but in order to have a good discussion you need to have a clear way of presenting information/arguments to one another. I know that you have this idea in your head, but all we get to see is the information placed in front of us. There is only so much that we can deduce without risking misinterpretation or wild assumptions. People are angry because you have chosen a stance that is not popular without taking the time or effort to actually say anything. People have the same reaction to those who tell everyone they're going to hell on the train (I live in NYC) because they're not of the same religion, people who say that being gay is wrong using the argument "Marriage is sacred," and the list goes on and on. These are perfectly valid opinions, but don't expect me to accept them without any discussion or evidence. Let us at least rationalize for a bit.
I repeat myself, but this is because I think this is important for both you and whoever else decides to write up their opinion in an "article." If you're attempting to sway beliefs, you have to argue properly (as in using evidence, clear flows of logic, anything else I mentioned before - and more!). Bad writing (which is what this is) does not contribute much to more to E-Sports than the traffic it brings to random threads on TeamLiquid. I would even go so far as to argue that bad writing and articles such as these are BAD FOR E-SPORTS (hahaha, I said it), but that would require more thought, effort, research and most of all time which I do not have as I have to go get my passport application handed in.
In case this wasn't clear (since I'm kind of all over the place), I claim that people are reacting on the quality of your writing rather than your opinion (since it isn't developed at all in the article). Therefore expect people to not take it seriously, and for people to react negatively when you add in bits and pieces of your argument as you respond to posts. You should not develop your idea in your replies, they should be fairly clear from the "get-go."
I look forward to seeing more "high quality" opinionated articles from people in the future. Gotta go!
Hey, thanks for the constructive criticism. I'll definitely save this in a notepad somewhere as you have some great points on how I could improve as a write overall :D Thanks again - (no sarcasm)
It might be a cultural thing, but I really don't understand people who justify players behaving like an ass, or even worse, encourage it. I don't understand them on a very basic level.
So one player types "fuck off" to the other in chat (or rl), and there's this spectator, a fan, that goes "wow, this is sooo much more fun now, there's now this whole storyline between those two which makes my experience so much better" in his head. To me, this kind of attitude is weird and completely nonsensical.
It's like a giant mental erection of sorts induced by years of being mindfucked by the western entertainment media which is utter trash for the most part, driven by trash principles - drama sells, sex sells, awful humor sells, stereotypes sell, basically everything that's fucked up... yup, it sells. That's the only explanation I can come up with.
The weirdest (and somewhat amusing) thing about it is the sheer abuse of words. You can literally translate things from the "media language" to what they actually mean. So you have things like:
- He has a big personality. (he behaves like an asshole) - He's boring. (he's a nice guy that may or may not be actually boring) - The two of them have a storyline going. (two personalities guys continuously behaving like assholes in front of each other and the crowd) - He shows emotion. (the emotion is usually hate or anger - others don't really matter) - He is very competitive. (he's just a sore loser and not necessarily more competitive than the rest). - He is honest, he tells it like it is. (his arguments are obnoxiously disrespectful and he may or may not actually be honest - or right)
It's a whole bloody process of spinning behaviors and habits that are inherently socially wrong into something that's actually positive. You actually can see all of the above examples in this very thread.
One of the most painful things to read for me lately (related to this issue at least) were the comments in the State of the Game thread about how all the hosts now are "boring". If you could bring any people of choice on a podcast, you still wouldn't have the collective strength of personality and passion for the game that Tyler, Day9 and Artosis have, but there are people who actually don't see that.
To each his own, I guess. At least I'll always have the Korean scene.
Whats so weird about it? Confrontations like that create a story line for the game. It does make the game more interesting because it leaves the viewer wanting to see how the game will end. And more invested in the ending. As far as your words go its not really an abuse of meanings. Having a nice guy is boring, because they are just like everyone else (except sheth of course <3). However someone like idra or MC is much more entertaining to watch, because they are different, they bring something new to the game (their personality), whether its good or bad its up to you. Really you state that words are being abused, then go on to abuse their definitions yourself.
"leagues MUST forbid such public disrespect and fine IdrA."
Only the BM was on Huks part. In-game chatting is against the rules (fine him?!?!), and it was particularly bad manned as Huk was sore-winner gloating. This is a really dumb article.
Man, this guy is still butthurt 4 months after IdrA/Huk. Huk bm'ed, broke MLG rules. Idra responded with bm, broke MLG rules. Would you like both to have been disqualified??
The only reason that BM hasn't affected sponsorship is that the stakes are so low and nobody in the mainstream media is paying attention. All it will take is one article in the NYTimes about Intel sponsoring homophobic players, and pros calling people 'fags' in chat will stop cold, if they want to keep a sponsorship. And it will happen, eventually. It's an easy article to write, and will get plenty of attention for the first reporter that does it.
"I need an argument. Ooooo I know! I'll go look it up on Reddit, surely someone will agree with me and have an informed opinion that will legitimize my entire argument!"
And honestly it's a dumb opinion to have. Unless IdrA has been cheating on 12 hookers or abusing zerglings, no one in the right mind is going to start getting all butthurt about a couple of swear words.
You're taking the whole thing out of proportion.
What is it, do you have a personal vendetta? I wasn't looking for an argument it was a post I found while looking through reddit which didn't have any relation to any post that someone had posted before. Stop assuming things.
I think his issue, and probably the issue many people are having, is that your article doesn't do a good job of explaining your reasoning behind your thesis. I think that you assume that your point is obvious and therefore doesn't need explanation, but as is obvious from most of the replies here that is not true. If you don't argue the concept of censoring and professionalism itself, all you are doing is stating your opinion. But just stating your opinion is not your goal here. Your goal here is to inspire people to take action or see things your way (see: argument or persuasive article), hence, saying things like, "it's my opinion therefore it's biased" is not enough. You need to provide evidence, make more claims than your initial thesis, and most of all define and develop your idea.
You never explain why "unprofessionalism" is bad. Trust me, you don't. I'm looking at the article right now. There is not one sentence dedicated to explaining why this is so. Not one.
You say that BM and actions of the like should be denounced when possible, and mention that "the community's reaction was luckily very negative to this whole ordeal..." regarding the contracts issue. This is obviously an example of your stances on these issues and what you approve/disapprove of. But once again you do not tell me why this is the "right" stance to have on this.
You complain that major organizations do not take BM seriously enough and that traditional/"professional" sports keep manners hidden or private. You say that Starcraft is not currently like that, and that " The same needs to become true for electronic sports." .. Why? Stop telling me what I NEED to do, what MUST be done, and what SHOULD be true without telling me why. I KNOW that you want things a certain way, but you have to prove that your way is superior in some way and way. Maybe it's inferior, but argue that. You don't argue anything, simply state your views. You definitely have the right to state your views, but you cannot expect people to see things your way without arguing morally, logically, etc.
For example, I think that BM at this point in Starcraft 2 is helping it. From reading through several forums I have seen evidence of it igniting passion in spectators (positive or negative). I do not believe Starcraft's current audience is easily offended, and therefore companies who sponsor Starcraft will continue to do so and do not incur much more risk doing so. I think that censorship in general is a dumb idea because I believe it falls on the viewers/recipients to decide what is acceptable or not. No sweeping generalization will ever please everyone, but to think that popular opinion (which is what defines "acceptable") sets the standards for the filters that decide what information I get to receive is absurd in my opinion.
You don't offer evidence to dispute the logical or philosophical parts that constitute my opinion (notice, not argument). I am willing to bet that anyone who reads your article (your target audience as stated at the end) and has the power to do anything about it will be testing your argument against their logic, their philosophy, and their biases. If you don't challenge their views, how do you expect to change them?
So then the issue becomes, why did you write the article in the first place? It is likely not going to achieve your goal, you did not develop any novel ,or any, ideas, and you're apparently not swaying even the casual readers of this forum. The response you're receiving isn't about you. It is about the article. People will argue about anything, but in order to have a good discussion you need to have a clear way of presenting information/arguments to one another. I know that you have this idea in your head, but all we get to see is the information placed in front of us. There is only so much that we can deduce without risking misinterpretation or wild assumptions. People are angry because you have chosen a stance that is not popular without taking the time or effort to actually say anything. People have the same reaction to those who tell everyone they're going to hell on the train (I live in NYC) because they're not of the same religion, people who say that being gay is wrong using the argument "Marriage is sacred," and the list goes on and on. These are perfectly valid opinions, but don't expect me to accept them without any discussion or evidence. Let us at least rationalize for a bit.
I repeat myself, but this is because I think this is important for both you and whoever else decides to write up their opinion in an "article." If you're attempting to sway beliefs, you have to argue properly (as in using evidence, clear flows of logic, anything else I mentioned before - and more!). Bad writing (which is what this is) does not contribute much to more to E-Sports than the traffic it brings to random threads on TeamLiquid. I would even go so far as to argue that bad writing and articles such as these are BAD FOR E-SPORTS (hahaha, I said it), but that would require more thought, effort, research and most of all time which I do not have as I have to go get my passport application handed in.
In case this wasn't clear (since I'm kind of all over the place), I claim that people are reacting on the quality of your writing rather than your opinion (since it isn't developed at all in the article). Therefore expect people to not take it seriously, and for people to react negatively when you add in bits and pieces of your argument as you respond to posts. You should not develop your idea in your replies, they should be fairly clear from the "get-go."
I look forward to seeing more "high quality" opinionated articles from people in the future. Gotta go!
I don't want this response to get buried and forgotten because it clearly articulates what people expect from an article calling for action of some sort from tournament organizers. If people are going to insist on claiming that certain things are "BAD FOR E-SPORTS," I want something more than opinion. Give me facts, statistics, and projected outcomes based on sourced datum.
On July 08 2011 02:46 Trowa127 wrote: Do you honestly want to fine players who scrape by just because they are dedicated to e-sports?
Ha, this one I haven't heard before. "Dedicated to e-sports".
No, nobody wants to fine people dedicated to e-sports. The OP talks about fining people who are obnoxious in public and major live events.
People who have given up other life oppurtunities such as going to university or getting jobs to be proffessional starcraft 2 players. Don't you think that is dedication?
Progaming is an opportunity and they're dedicated to their own careers. Dedication to e-sports is something different. You make it sound like e-sports will suffer if players who are being obnoxious are punished for it. It won't.
Besides, this is not some "BM tax" we're talking about. It's just a threat of a fine that will do its thing - every sane person will just avoid getting fined and nobody will have to pay anything.
The Huk-Idra ss is out of context and I don't exactly agree with what you say, I think the drama that comes from the bm far outweighs the "public appeal" that we lose.
After all, I watch esports to be entertained, not because I want it to become the new Soccer.
A language filter would be a small solution here so atleast the words FUCK YOU dont pop out lol
.. or a 'warning' to the viewers of the stream, like 16+ or whatever. that way if youre offended by "Fuck You" just dont watch that stream.
But this is a game where it's common to see human beings being corroded by acid, various types of animal being burnt alive and nuclear weapons being used. Who on earth would be fine with the terrible, terrible deaths that go on in every game but be upset by someone saying fuck?
Bad manners in traditional sports are very private and hidden
Like in cricket? Or football, where players like Wayne Rooney say fuck to TV cameras? These sports make ESPORTS look like nothing and they have plenty of BM but they certainly have no troubles in attracting sponsors. But you're right. Maybe we do need to force nerds to sit quietly at their computers every game, can't be showing any passion in ESPORTS, can we?
On July 08 2011 00:08 mki wrote: Furthermore, rather than fine Delpan 2,500 EURO, they should fine him the maximum fee they possibly could. In the future, if that fee is 2,500 EURO, they should change their contract to make such a fee 10,000 EURO. In addition to all this, all contracts MUST BE notarized by a qualified lawyer. If such harsh action would be taken, all organizations around the world will know that a change has come and that we can't steal each other's players anymore. This is how this matter is taken care of in every traditional sports league around the world, and until organizations take a hard blow for such negative actions, they will continue with said negative actions.
Also, how would this work considering the players freedom of employment?
Look at all sports, they have their drama and unprofesionalism. It makes them interesting. Hell, I know people who only follow soccer for the drama, they dont care what the scores are, just the drama.
for me it look like op thinks that when esport take all bad elements of other sports and try to be football its is professional. this word is so dam overused. everyone use this word if they want to say: "to be professional they must act like i want them to act, wear the clothes i want them to wear and say what i want to hear"
BTW its very interesting that sc2 is one of the only underground scene i saw who wants to be mainstream at all cost. Normally people of new coming sport fight to be different and dont get the bad sites of the mainstream sports. Here the people fight to sell it as fast as possible. Did you ever think about that, when you reach your goal and sc2 is as "professional" as other sports, people will stop watching it?
Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Hes allowed to curse all he wants on his rap albums, but not at an nba game during a live interview. Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
On July 08 2011 03:13 Jibba wrote:
Everyone knows Michael Jordan called Kwame Brown a 'little faggot.' Kevin Garnett told Charlie V he looked like a cancer patient and no one batted an eye.
No one cared.
Nobody batted an eye? Are you joking? This was the lead story on Sportscenter for like a week after it happened, with cancer groups/patients, nba players, coaches, fans, and analysts speaking out against Garnett. There was a HUGE backlash for him saying this. Just like Kobe cant call somebody a fucking faggot without the gay community speaking out.
Your definition of professionalism is arbitrary and completely disconnected from reality in every major sport.
People get fined for insulting certain people (usually officials) or doing it in a certain way (using 'faggot' or something like a throat slash.) They rarely get fined for trash talking and I'm not sure where you've gotten the idea that they do.
Everyone knows Michael Jordan called Kwame Brown a 'little faggot.' Kevin Garnett told Charlie V he looked like a cancer patient and no one batted an eye (from the NBA, obviously the media went nuts.)
Btw, players like Idra are being INVITED to these tournaments, they're not qualifying for most of them. Which speaks volumes that these companies understand telling someone to "fuck off" = money in the bank in esports. So good luck bud.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Hes allowed to curse all he wants on his rap albums, but not at an nba game during a live interview. Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
Shaq was fined for swearing while criticizing the refs. He wasn't fined when he accidentally swore the second time. Mark Cuban just swore on TV and didn't get fined.
It might be a cultural thing, but I really don't understand people who justify players behaving like an ass, or even worse, encourage it. I don't understand them on a very basic level.
So one player types "fuck off" to the other in chat (or rl), and there's this spectator, a fan, that goes "wow, this is sooo much more fun now, there's now this whole storyline between those two which makes my experience so much better" in his head. To me, this kind of attitude is weird and completely nonsensical.
It's like a giant mental erection of sorts induced by years of being mindfucked by the western entertainment media which is utter trash for the most part, driven by trash principles - drama sells, sex sells, awful humor sells, stereotypes sell, basically everything that's fucked up... yup, it sells. That's the only explanation I can come up with.
The weirdest (and somewhat amusing) thing about it is the sheer abuse of words. You can literally translate things from the "media language" to what they actually mean. So you have things like:
- He has a big personality. (he behaves like an asshole) - He's boring. (he's a nice guy that may or may not be actually boring) - The two of them have a storyline going. (two personalities guys continuously behaving like assholes in front of each other and the crowd) - He shows emotion. (the emotion is usually hate or anger - others don't really matter) - He is very competitive. (he's just a sore loser and not necessarily more competitive than the rest). - He is honest, he tells it like it is. (his arguments are obnoxiously disrespectful and he may or may not actually be honest - or right)
It's a whole bloody process of spinning behaviors and habits that are inherently socially wrong into something that's actually positive. You actually can see all of the above examples in this very thread.
One of the most painful things to read for me lately (related to this issue at least) were the comments in the State of the Game thread about how all the hosts now are "boring". If you could bring any people of choice on a podcast, you still wouldn't have the collective strength of personality and passion for the game that Tyler, Day9 and Artosis have, but there are people who actually don't see that.
To each his own, I guess. At least I'll always have the Korean scene.
Whats so weird about it? Confrontations like that create a story line for the game. It does make the game more interesting because it leaves the viewer wanting to see how the game will end. And more invested in the ending. As far as your words go its not really an abuse of meanings. Having a nice guy is boring, because they are just like everyone else (except sheth of course <3). However someone like idra or MC is much more entertaining to watch, because they are different, they bring something new to the game (their personality), whether its good or bad its up to you. Really you state that words are being abused, then go on to abuse their definitions yourself.
It's weird that you need some sort of an external motivation to want to see the outcome of a game. Isn't the point of being a Starcraft fan to watch Starcraft, because watching (and playing) it is inherently fun? Besides, not every storyline and rivalry needs BM at all. Are you saying Flash and Jaedong don't have "a storyline"? Boxer and Yellow? MMA and DongRaeGu? I love rivalries, I just hate artificial, fake ones (like Idra and Huk, literally all their mutual games bar 1 were awful).
Secondly, how are nice guys boring? They can have interesting things to say. They can have a genuine good sense of humor. In Starcraft, they can be fantastic players and smart and articulate enough to talk about the game, strategies, etc. Do you require someone to stir up drama in order to be entertained? You asked me what's weird - well, that would be weird.
Um "nice guys are all the same"... I don't even know how to respond that. I honestly don't.
Oh, and as for words and definitions, are you implying that the term "personality" does, in fact, relate to how obnoxious a person is? English isn't my first language, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean that in any context.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
I'd argue that the NBA and E-Sports in general have very different target audiences. The NBA fines players for swearing in public and when they're caught on camera because their audience is, in a generalized sense, everyone. They try to appeal to all demographics, young and old. Look at the playoff commercials where they show the legends of the past, such as Larry Bird and Jordan, along side the new faces of the NBA, Durant and Lebron. Because of this wide demographic spread they have to censor it for public consumption.
Presently, E-Sports is a niche market that appeals to a small target market that sponsors and tournament organizers recognize. This market, known generally as "gamers," is usually not insulted when they see BM because they're accustomed to it. In addition, some of the biggest draws to these tournaments beyond hype is the drama and storylines. IdrA vs MC at Dreamhack in an epic rematch is one small example.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Hes allowed to curse all he wants on his rap albums, but not at an nba game during a live interview. Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
Shaq was fined for swearing while criticizing the refs. He wasn't fined when he accidentally swore the second time. Mark Cuban just swore on TV and didn't get fined.
So youre saying an NBA player did get fined for swearing? And Mark Cuban has been fined millions of dollars for saying and doing stuff he isnt supposed to be doing as an NBA owner, just because it doesnt happen once doesnt mean it hasnt happened a dozen other times.
It might be a cultural thing, but I really don't understand people who justify players behaving like an ass, or even worse, encourage it. I don't understand them on a very basic level.
So one player types "fuck off" to the other in chat (or rl), and there's this spectator, a fan, that goes "wow, this is sooo much more fun now, there's now this whole storyline between those two which makes my experience so much better" in his head. To me, this kind of attitude is weird and completely nonsensical.
It's like a giant mental erection of sorts induced by years of being mindfucked by the western entertainment media which is utter trash for the most part, driven by trash principles - drama sells, sex sells, awful humor sells, stereotypes sell, basically everything that's fucked up... yup, it sells. That's the only explanation I can come up with.
The weirdest (and somewhat amusing) thing about it is the sheer abuse of words. You can literally translate things from the "media language" to what they actually mean. So you have things like:
- He has a big personality. (he behaves like an asshole) - He's boring. (he's a nice guy that may or may not be actually boring) - The two of them have a storyline going. (two personalities guys continuously behaving like assholes in front of each other and the crowd) - He shows emotion. (the emotion is usually hate or anger - others don't really matter) - He is very competitive. (he's just a sore loser and not necessarily more competitive than the rest). - He is honest, he tells it like it is. (his arguments are obnoxiously disrespectful and he may or may not actually be honest - or right)
It's a whole bloody process of spinning behaviors and habits that are inherently socially wrong into something that's actually positive. You actually can see all of the above examples in this very thread.
One of the most painful things to read for me lately (related to this issue at least) were the comments in the State of the Game thread about how all the hosts now are "boring". If you could bring any people of choice on a podcast, you still wouldn't have the collective strength of personality and passion for the game that Tyler, Day9 and Artosis have, but there are people who actually don't see that.
To each his own, I guess. At least I'll always have the Korean scene.
Whats so weird about it? Confrontations like that create a story line for the game. It does make the game more interesting because it leaves the viewer wanting to see how the game will end. And more invested in the ending. As far as your words go its not really an abuse of meanings. Having a nice guy is boring, because they are just like everyone else (except sheth of course <3). However someone like idra or MC is much more entertaining to watch, because they are different, they bring something new to the game (their personality), whether its good or bad its up to you. Really you state that words are being abused, then go on to abuse their definitions yourself.
It's weird that you need some sort of an external motivation to want to see the outcome of a game. Isn't the point of being a Starcraft fan to watch Starcraft, because watching (and playing) it is inherently fun? Besides, not every storyline and rivalry needs BM at all. Are you saying Flash and Jaedong don't have "a storyline"? Boxer and Yellow? MMA and DongRaeGu? I love rivalries, I just hate artificial, fake ones (like Idra and Huk, literally all their mutual games bar 1 were awful).
Secondly, how are nice guys boring? They can have interesting things to say. They can have a genuine good sense of humor. In Starcraft, they can be fantastic players and smart and articulate enough to talk about the game, strategies, etc. Do you require someone to stir up drama in order to be entertained? You asked me what's weird - well, that would be weird.
Um "nice guys are all the same"... I don't even know how to respond that. I honestly don't.
Oh, and as for words and definitions, are you implying that the term "personality" does, in fact, relate to how obnoxious a person is? English isn't my first language, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean that in any context.
Do you watch real sports at ALL?
Zidane was amazing. Mike Tyson was amazing. Everyone hating Lebron was amazing. The Detroit-Colorado fight was amazing. Yes, Pete Sampras was boring as hell and Andre Agassi was interesting. You might think that mentality is wrong, but there's countless examples that show the general public completely disagrees with you.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Hes allowed to curse all he wants on his rap albums, but not at an nba game during a live interview. Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
Shaq was fined for swearing while criticizing the refs. He wasn't fined when he accidentally swore the second time. Mark Cuban just swore on TV and didn't get fined.
So youre saying an NBA player did get fined for swearing? And Mark Cuban has been fined millions of dollars for saying and doing stuff he isnt supposed to be doing as an NBA owner, just because it doesnt happen once doesnt mean it hasnt happened a dozen other times.
He got fined for swearing about the refs. He wasn't fined when he was swearing at something else. Plenty of players have been caught swearing and haven't been fined. The NBA is simply ultra protective of their terrible refs.
Nobody batted an eye? Are you joking? This was the lead story on Sportscenter for like a week after it happened, with cancer groups/patients, nba players, coaches, fans, and analysts speaking out against Garnett. There was a HUGE backlash for him saying this. Just like Kobe cant call somebody a fucking faggot without the gay community speaking out.
There was a politically correct backlash that actually represented very little to him, simply because it seemed like "the right thing to do." He didn't lose sponsors. Most of his fans didn't care. The NBA didn't care. Sportscenter just finds stupid shit to run on like they always do, because that's how they get ratings.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Hes allowed to curse all he wants on his rap albums, but not at an nba game during a live interview. Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
Everyone knows Michael Jordan called Kwame Brown a 'little faggot.' Kevin Garnett told Charlie V he looked like a cancer patient and no one batted an eye.
No one cared.
Nobody batted an eye? Are you joking? This was the lead story on Sportscenter for like a week after it happened, with cancer groups/patients, nba players, coaches, fans, and analysts speaking out against Garnett. There was a HUGE backlash for him saying this. Just like Kobe cant call somebody a fucking faggot without the gay community speaking out.
The players get fined a infinitesimal percentage of their salary, a slap on the wrist, but in the end they are icons in their respective sports. At the end of the day, they go onto the court and do what they do best and the general public loves them for that. All the players who you mentioned have legions of fans still and while you make out their "punishments" to be so terrible, it was probably nothing to them and they could care less.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
I'd argue that the NBA and E-Sports in general have very different target audiences. The NBA fines players for swearing in public and when they're caught on camera because their audience is, in a generalized sense, everyone. They try to appeal to all demographics, young and old. Look at the playoff commercials where they show the legends of the past, such as Larry Bird and Jordan, along side the new faces of the NBA, Durant and Lebron. Because of this wide demographic spread they have to censor it for public consumption.
Presently, E-Sports is a niche market that appeals to a small target market that sponsors and tournament organizers recognize. This market, known generally as "gamers," is usually not insulted when they see BM because they're accustomed to it. In addition, some of the biggest draws to these tournaments beyond hype is the drama and storylines. IdrA vs MC at Dreamhack in an epic rematch is one small example.
Presently yes, it is a niche market, but have you seen how many posts there are on TL about trying to get esports to grow? How can you appeal to the same larger demographic that the NBA does if you allow players to act however they want and say whatever they want? Just because were used to BM doesnt mean everybody is going to think its OK. I mean if you play pickup basketball games regularly youve more than likely heard a few curse words thrown around, and probably said a few yourself, but that doesnt mean thats what should be aired on ABC during a professional game.
this is the first impression i got from watching foreign casts as sc2 got released. it bothered me in the beginning how american casters constantly joked around, said unneeded things, carry on jokes for a long period of time (i'm talking tastosis).
then i realized its just a cultural difference. i felt the same thing as a child, when i went up on the stage as a elementary school kid, i'd bow 90 degrees to my principle and shake his hand as he handed me a reward, another kid that went after me didn't even look at him, didn't shake and didn't bow. that actually ticked me off so much because its BM. i only realized its not BM but just the way it is.
compared to korean casters, american casters do lack professionalism (constant jokes) but thats what foreigners want, foreigners want idra like players, they want brock lesnar of sc2.
foreign casters are like your friends, as if they're watching with you. korean casters are presenters, they present what is going on to you.
but this only applies to esports or sc2. look at any other professional sport and they're all professional about it.
with that said i honestly don't care about BM and professionalism at the moment, esport is at its infant stages. when it gets big enough where a single word can offend a large group of people and at the same time be presentable to a mass demography, i'm sure rules will be applied.
People are so focused on spoken(typed) manners but does anyone ever create huge things about manner mules or dropping a nexus in someones base after they win?
Why is this so important? I just can't see it. Sure, there's something called crossing the line when you bm, but I love seeing progamers interact and BM just hypes up a series a lot (Idra vs MC anyone?)
Why would you wanna FINE a player for HUGE amounts when I would say most players are already struggling to make a living of the game?
E-sports is a modern sport, and do not need to be exactly like traditional sports.
A lot of people in this thread are saying "there's shit talk in a lot of sports so it's fine". What the fuck? I for one don't want esports to become like some of these real sports, you know, like football (soccer) where half the enthusiasts and supporters are retarded and/or alcohoolic douchebags. I want esports to stay classy and respectable. I don't want esports to become lowbrow entertainment like all these popular sports. But if it's already too late, then tell me and I'll go away.
I feel that at the end of the day, a lot of people on TL are just here for the drama, the trash talk and the immature behavior and that's it. I guess we're all just human beings after all. Shortsighted and dumb human beings.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
I'd argue that the NBA and E-Sports in general have very different target audiences. The NBA fines players for swearing in public and when they're caught on camera because their audience is, in a generalized sense, everyone. They try to appeal to all demographics, young and old. Look at the playoff commercials where they show the legends of the past, such as Larry Bird and Jordan, along side the new faces of the NBA, Durant and Lebron. Because of this wide demographic spread they have to censor it for public consumption.
Presently, E-Sports is a niche market that appeals to a small target market that sponsors and tournament organizers recognize. This market, known generally as "gamers," is usually not insulted when they see BM because they're accustomed to it. In addition, some of the biggest draws to these tournaments beyond hype is the drama and storylines. IdrA vs MC at Dreamhack in an epic rematch is one small example.
Presently yes, it is a niche market, but have you seen how many posts there are on TL about trying to get esports to grow? How can you appeal to the same larger demographic that the NBA does if you allow players to act however they want and say whatever they want? Just because were used to BM doesnt mean everybody is going to think its OK. I mean if you play pickup basketball games regularly youve more than likely heard a few curse words thrown around, and probably said a few yourself, but that doesnt mean thats what should be aired on ABC during a professional game.
Starcraft isn't being shown on ABC and the swearing isn't detracting from its chances of being on ABC. It will ALWAYS (read: ALWAYS) be a niche market and if it every ends up on American television, it will be somewhere like Spike or G4 where they really won't care nor will the FCC. Even in this bizarre little fantasy world where ABC cares enough about Starcraft to put it on television, they aren't going to have reservations simply because people swear at each other. They'll filter it or have a delayed blur, just like they do with real sports.
To the people who think BM hurts SC2's chances to "make it big," have a look at what streams and players get the most attention and why those players have a rabid following. If corporate sponsors want them to change, they'll simply ask them to. They're not going to pass them up, however, just because of past BM. That's absurd and in all likely they'll prefer it, because that's what gets people's attention. All the evidence we currently have points to the fact that BM is helpful to ESPORTS.
But the truth of the e-sports scene is as follows. We don't have multiple millions of viewers, viewers don't include entire families or alot of adults. E-sports is powered by mostly young adults. Eventhough respect makes for more friendly competition, small "BM" interactions if anything PROMOTES e-sports. People like drama, for example, most tv shows are drama, and shower it's audience in character development around drama.
Me personally, two players in a heated battle for pride makes the game more interesting.
No one is saying, start shit talking, but fining players for little controversial biased statements should definetly not be something the e-sports hosts need to look at cracking down on.
It's just absurd to think that idra would be fined for telling someone to fuck off.
In my professional opinion, there is no manner issue within the e-sports scene. Little things arise here and there, but should not be seen as a threat.
National Sports like the NFL have millions of fans, millions in revenue, they have a much larger audience and responsibility because most players are idolized. They're in a unique position of esteem and most would say alot of the celebration fines are over the top. But to promote a healthier less hostile environment it's crucial to limit tauting, because those types of acts cause hostility within the fans.
Now here's my last point. How many people wanted to stab idra or cruncher or huk, or anyone playing SC2 or CSS because they taunted their opponent. Next to none. How many people wanted to get revenge for being taunted at their home field after losing a game? ALOT MORE! (prime example Riot in Vancouver after the Cup was lost and there was little to no taunting)
Sports have loyal fans to certain teams. E-sports do not, all fans love the game itself and have favorites but not a feeling of ownership over their favorites like in pro sports.
I don't agree with OP at all, I think IdrA's BM is great for SC2, he is a profile in SC2 and I think that without IdrA's BM style we would lose gamers. We can't be korean robots, how fun would that be?
On July 08 2011 03:28 burster wrote: People are so focused on spoken(typed) manners but does anyone ever create huge things about manner mules or dropping a nexus in someones base after they win?
Actions speak louder than words I feel.
The reason is sponsors and political correctness. A sponsor doesn't care if a player like MC bangs on a booth, but it will care if MC says offensive words.
On July 08 2011 03:30 AlBundy wrote: A lot of people in this thread are saying "there's shit talk in a lot of sports so it's fine". What the fuck? I for one don't want esports to become like some of these real sports, you know, like football (soccer) where half the enthusiasts and supporters are retarded and/or alcohoolic douchebags. I want esports to stay classy and respectable. I don't want esports to become lowbrow entertainment like all these popular sports. But if it's already too late, then tell me and I'll go away.
It is, dude, abandon all hope and leave Starcraft forever.
This is essentially the same thing that came up in the Casting Language Standards thread. I feel the eSports because of the nature of the game itself having a rating are different from regular sports in that there is an age expectation when it comes to the audience.
I don't think there should be any kind of severe penalties for little slips like this, they happen quite rarely anyways. Besides, MLG already has rules regarding chat and they do warn players for chatting.
SC2 should be catered towards gamers, not the general public. NFL/NBA is huuuge, so ofcourse they'll be sure not to do anything considered 'deviant'. I think what makes the current ESports-scene so wonderful and colorful, is the variety that there is. The amount of BM in progames if you look at it overall (of all the major tournaments/leagues in how many games you really think there occurred BM?), I think it's almost nill percent. But it definitely adds something to the equation. It builds a storyline, and DJWheat knows how important that is.
If the ESports-scene follows the route that established major sport broadcast follow, it will alienate the public that made ESports possible in the first place, namely us gamers.
One more note; you have to consider that ESports is far more international than NFL or NBA, so what's considered as BM isn't always clear because of cultural differences.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Hes allowed to curse all he wants on his rap albums, but not at an nba game during a live interview. Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
Everyone knows Michael Jordan called Kwame Brown a 'little faggot.' Kevin Garnett told Charlie V he looked like a cancer patient and no one batted an eye.
No one cared.
Nobody batted an eye? Are you joking? This was the lead story on Sportscenter for like a week after it happened, with cancer groups/patients, nba players, coaches, fans, and analysts speaking out against Garnett. There was a HUGE backlash for him saying this. Just like Kobe cant call somebody a fucking faggot without the gay community speaking out.
Ok I agree with the post above mine where NBA and E-sports have different target audiences and it's tough to compare. I'm a fan and participant to both sides and I can easily say that NBA players are looked upon as bigger and global role models than E-sports players. For any sports league such as the NBA, NFL, and MLB, in the past several years they have been leagues of image(always trying to look better to the public not matter how much it hurts the sport). So they are less tolerable when players step out of line. Fact Check *Kobe got fined 100,000 *Charlie accused Kevin of calling him a cancer patient(but never actually did)
Also as gamers I think BM and trash talk are part of the culture and community. Most of the time gamers are not having face to face interactions. They're sitting behind a screen knocking down mtn dews and hammering down some cheetos. You don't know what the other person looks like, where they live, or what they do......and I doubt any of us would care either. This opens up the mindset that you aren't liable for what you say, and there are no consequences if you do. I would to see someone in this post stand up and say that they have played 1.6, sc, sc2, call of duty, madden, fifa, or any other ocmpetitve video game where they have found a clean enviorment without trash talking bm kids. It's part of the mindset and culture.
Not saying it's right though, just not point to monitor it or censor it in useless amatuer level competition.
For E-sports to progress they do have to monitor some of the bigger names, tournaments, etc. I don't think fines are proper because pay outs aren't actually that big if people want to compare them to professional athletes. Just penalize them from playing or participating in tournaments for BM.
I think BM keeps Esports interesting. It helps make rivalaries and spark competition. The Huk/Idra rivalary was born through Idras and Huks BM toward each other. I think MLG or any other organization would be stupid to fine theese players as they bring viewers along with the Drama.
On July 08 2011 03:30 AlBundy wrote: A lot of people in this thread are saying "there's shit talk in a lot of sports so it's fine". What the fuck? I for one don't want esports to become like some of these real sports, you know, like football (soccer) where half the enthusiasts and supporters are retarded and/or alcohoolic douchebags. I want esports to stay classy and respectable. I don't want esports to become lowbrow entertainment like all these popular sports. But if it's already too late, then tell me and I'll go away.
I feel that at the end of the day, a lot of people on TL are just here for the drama, the trash talk and the immature behavior and that's it. I guess we're all just human beings after all. Shortsighted and dumb human beings.
Stop sounding like you're superior or any better than any of us. When Idra and MC BM each other and create drama, they are creating a hype that creates a spectator's sensation that gets you pumped to watch the game. I'm surprised that you know the entire football enthusiast community and have found that exactly "half" of them are retarded or alcoholic douche-bags. A sport is a sport to those who are playing it but it's also a spectator's game for those who watch it for entertainment and people like drama. From the days of Ancient Greece, Drama has entertained the minds of Emperors, Kings, citizens, and the homeless. We aren't dumb for loving something that startles our emotional senses, it's what makes us...us.
On July 08 2011 03:30 AlBundy wrote: A lot of people in this thread are saying "there's shit talk in a lot of sports so it's fine". What the fuck? I for one don't want esports to become like some of these real sports, you know, like football (soccer) where half the enthusiasts and supporters are retarded and/or alcohoolic douchebags. I want esports to stay classy and respectable. I don't want esports to become lowbrow entertainment like all these popular sports. But if it's already too late, then tell me and I'll go away.
It is, dude, abandon all hope and leave Starcraft forever.
Still waiting for a perma ban from another thread but alas... Anyway it seems that the only way to make esports mainstream is to dumb it down so here we go. I guess Idra is fighting the good fight.
All tournaments should ban ingame chat (aside from pp) and require gg's. I'm not being sarcastic.
Imo, this is the ideal solution for people who actually like watching Starcraft and not soap operas. Players can show their personality outside of tournament games, in interviews or whatnot.
On July 08 2011 03:11 Helios.Star wrote: Apparently nobody hear watches NBA games, or they would have remembered how much trouble Shaq got in, and how much he got fined, after he cursed on live tv. After the interviewer reminded him he was on live TV he said "I dont give a fuck". Or how about during this years playoffs when Kobe called the ref a fucking faggot (it wasnt even audible, you could only read his lips), didnt he get fined like $50,000? Why shouldnt esports be held to the same standards?
I'd argue that the NBA and E-Sports in general have very different target audiences. The NBA fines players for swearing in public and when they're caught on camera because their audience is, in a generalized sense, everyone. They try to appeal to all demographics, young and old. Look at the playoff commercials where they show the legends of the past, such as Larry Bird and Jordan, along side the new faces of the NBA, Durant and Lebron. Because of this wide demographic spread they have to censor it for public consumption.
Presently, E-Sports is a niche market that appeals to a small target market that sponsors and tournament organizers recognize. This market, known generally as "gamers," is usually not insulted when they see BM because they're accustomed to it. In addition, some of the biggest draws to these tournaments beyond hype is the drama and storylines. IdrA vs MC at Dreamhack in an epic rematch is one small example.
Presently yes, it is a niche market, but have you seen how many posts there are on TL about trying to get esports to grow? How can you appeal to the same larger demographic that the NBA does if you allow players to act however they want and say whatever they want? Just because were used to BM doesnt mean everybody is going to think its OK. I mean if you play pickup basketball games regularly youve more than likely heard a few curse words thrown around, and probably said a few yourself, but that doesnt mean thats what should be aired on ABC during a professional game.
The thing is, in complete honesty from a business perspective E-Sports will not appeal to the same demographic as ANY professional sport. It will grow and quite largely at that as more tournaments become widely available and reach new viewer bases, possibly even on console systems through XBox Live or PSN.
I guess from my viewpoint is that at the current state of E-Sports in general and the growth it is experiencing expectations across the board will change. A lot of that growth is due to new games but coincidentally also the personalities that come with them. Good or Bad we need the characters that bring viewers in because that is what sponsors are drawn to right now. Will E-Sports ever get so big to the point where Sponsors start demanding certain things from teams or players? Time will tell I suppose. But look at some of the most popular streams, Destiny and IdrA, or tournaments games, IdrA vs MMA/MC. They get the most viewers because that is what the target market is interested in at the moment, drama and the potential for something fantastic. Until that trend changes, these pleas for "professionalism" and "manners" will meet ardent refusal.
On July 08 2011 03:38 Enervate wrote: All tournaments should ban ingame chat (aside from pp) and require gg's. I'm not being sarcastic.
Imo, this is the ideal solution for people who actually like watching Starcraft and not soap operas. Players can show their personality outside of tournament games, in interviews or whatnot.
I dunno, I actually like to see some player interaction in chat, it can be interesting. Like SeleCT and Naniwa joking around at Dallas, or even the Huk and IdrA thing. It happens pretty rarely so it's not a big deal, like once or twice at every MLG there will be something "controversial" in chat, but it's never a big deal in my opinion. As long as warning are given out to make sure it doesn't happen in every other game, I'm fine with it.
On July 08 2011 03:30 AlBundy wrote: A lot of people in this thread are saying "there's shit talk in a lot of sports so it's fine". What the fuck? I for one don't want esports to become like some of these real sports, you know, like football (soccer) where half the enthusiasts and supporters are retarded and/or alcohoolic douchebags. I want esports to stay classy and respectable. I don't want esports to become lowbrow entertainment like all these popular sports. But if it's already too late, then tell me and I'll go away.
It is, dude, abandon all hope and leave Starcraft forever.
The irony of you being called AlBundy made me chuckle a little. For those that don't know him, Al Bundy was the stereotypical chauvanist pig / douche type in a sitcom. I'll stop the nostalgic derail now
I think a bit of strategic BM adds an element of rivalry to the scene and polarises people which makes great viewing.
as long as the "unprofessionalism" stays focused on the game and doesn't stretch out to comments/threats about a person's family or well being, I'll view it more as entertainment value than being unprofessional
I don't care much about this particular issue, but it does annoy me that the OP singled out Idra here. I don't think Idra ever BM's in big LAN tournaments unless he's provoked (at least that I've seen, lately), so I doubt he'd have much of a problem, whether they add in fines or not.
It's pretty clear that Huk was baiting him here, taunting him after a loss. You can't ignore it just because he didn't use "fuck."
On July 08 2011 03:30 AlBundy wrote: A lot of people in this thread are saying "there's shit talk in a lot of sports so it's fine". What the fuck? I for one don't want esports to become like some of these real sports, you know, like football (soccer) where half the enthusiasts and supporters are retarded and/or alcohoolic douchebags. I want esports to stay classy and respectable. I don't want esports to become lowbrow entertainment like all these popular sports. But if it's already too late, then tell me and I'll go away.
I feel that at the end of the day, a lot of people on TL are just here for the drama, the trash talk and the immature behavior and that's it. I guess we're all just human beings after all. Shortsighted and dumb human beings.
Stop sounding like you're superior or any better than any of us. When Idra and MC BM each other and create drama, they are creating a hype that creates a spectator's sensation that gets you pumped to watch the game. I'm surprised that you know the entire football enthusiast community and have found that exactly "half" of them are retarded or alcoholic douche-bags. A sport is a sport to those who are playing it but it's also a spectator's game for those who watch it for entertainment and people like drama. From the days of Ancient Greece, Drama has entertained the minds of Emperors, Kings, citizens, and the homeless. We aren't dumb for loving something that startles our emotional senses, it's what makes us...us.
Yeah, Idra flipping off a fellow competitor is totally similar to ancient greece theatre. Sure. Euripides ain't got nuthin on ma boi Grack.
Such leagues MUST forbid such public disrespect and fine IdrA. A message needs to be sent. EG manager SirScoots has often been quoted on Twitter and elsewhere to be against the word "rape". I personally don't think that the word "rape" is holding electronic sports back in this situation
First, its not about Idra. Its about overall rules, punishment, different expressions, different perspectives, tolerance and the well being of the community.
Second, what the fuck is wrong with you to compare e-sports to "real life" sports in this way ? There are similarities but the culture, traditions, atmosphere and context is very different from that in e-sports. What makes you think that the same rules should be applied to real life sports and e-sports ?
Its very sad that people writing articles such as THIS one, include such flawed and, dare I say, ignorant, black&white, narrow views.
Strict rules, punishment and harshness is NOT the solution. Where does this lead you ? You want fucking Pavlov`s dogs community ? A community where no one crosses the line which people like you try to define and establish as borderline of law ?
Please tell me, where the fuck is tolerance ? Has it not occured to you, that in your, oh so passionate and fierce conviction to be the good guys, you are disregarding and mocking tolerance ?
Not all share your views about some curse words or your definitions of unacceptable "bad manner", not to mention your solutions to the problems which are created by your interpretation of the situation. Who the fuck do you think you are to define the borderline for EVERYONE ? Like this ?
Can`t you understand or acknowledge that there are other points of view and you are NOT an oracle to attack and discredit these points of view ?
I really doubt you have bad intentions. Probably a very good ones. I don`t think you do this intentionally, probably completele unintentionally. However, you miss the point. People like you - people who want to justify strict punishment and define strict rules - you are control freaks and if you succed with your plans - you ruin the spirit of this community. You stab e-sports right in the heart. You kill life in e-sports. You launch the iron words of your strict definitions and you impose them on others and in this, you tarnish and mock the beauty of our diversity.
Truly, so coincidental that these are people with some kind of authority that always want stricter rules, more harsh punishments - such a coincidence. It just so happens, that stricter rules and harsh punishments always greatly increase the value of authority and recognition because those who have authority are the ones who mostly define the interpretation and application of these rules. They become the important ones. They become the indispensable ones. They become the saviors who save us from the chaos, injustice, lack of professionalism or whatever they claim is a great threat. Such a coincidence.
What is really sad in this story and basicly in most other stories, is that so many people support that because they respond to similar desires. Control. Control brings peace and succes, it also "saves people" from their "sinful/egoistic natures" and "stupidity" or so they believe, at least partially.
Why can't the TL user base look at threads like these and say "Oh man, I sure am tired of arguing this topic to death like we have for the past few months." Like any rational person would. You're not changing anyone's mind and it's annoying to be such trollbait.
On July 08 2011 03:30 AlBundy wrote: A lot of people in this thread are saying "there's shit talk in a lot of sports so it's fine". What the fuck? I for one don't want esports to become like some of these real sports, you know, like football (soccer) where half the enthusiasts and supporters are retarded and/or alcohoolic douchebags. I want esports to stay classy and respectable. I don't want esports to become lowbrow entertainment like all these popular sports. But if it's already too late, then tell me and I'll go away.
I feel that at the end of the day, a lot of people on TL are just here for the drama, the trash talk and the immature behavior and that's it. I guess we're all just human beings after all. Shortsighted and dumb human beings.
Stop sounding like you're superior or any better than any of us. When Idra and MC BM each other and create drama, they are creating a hype that creates a spectator's sensation that gets you pumped to watch the game. I'm surprised that you know the entire football enthusiast community and have found that exactly "half" of them are retarded or alcoholic douche-bags. A sport is a sport to those who are playing it but it's also a spectator's game for those who watch it for entertainment and people like drama. From the days of Ancient Greece, Drama has entertained the minds of Emperors, Kings, citizens, and the homeless. We aren't dumb for loving something that startles our emotional senses, it's what makes us...us.
Yeah, Idra flipping off a fellow competitor is totally similar to ancient greece theatre. Sure. Euripides ain't got nuthin on ma boi Grack.
Maybe not Euripides, but definitely Shakespeare. Shakespeare was lower-brow than anything IdrA's pulled out of his leather Gracket.
On July 08 2011 03:56 MattBarry wrote: Why can't the TL user base look at threads like these and say "Oh man, I sure am tired of arguing this topic to death like we have for the past few months." Like any rational person would. You're not changing anyone's mind and it's annoying to be such trollbait.
Truthfully everytime i read a thread about Bad manner i just sort of roll my eyes.
On July 08 2011 03:30 AlBundy wrote: A lot of people in this thread are saying "there's shit talk in a lot of sports so it's fine". What the fuck? I for one don't want esports to become like some of these real sports, you know, like football (soccer) where half the enthusiasts and supporters are retarded and/or alcohoolic douchebags. I want esports to stay classy and respectable. I don't want esports to become lowbrow entertainment like all these popular sports.
And I suppose half the enthusiasts and supporters of esports are sociophobic virgins and/or unemployed basement dwellers.
Just let things be what they are and drop the pretension.
I think looking at team competion in general is the wrong approach when looking at conduct (though players are signed to teams and some leagues are team formatted, it is a competition 1 vs 1) and look more towards sports for instance like boxing or tennis, John Mcenroe for instance. His behavior is outlandish depending on calls and helped more people to become aware of tennis. Granted also there are incredibly different crowds associated with such sports it adds drama and excitement and actually bring viewers in. Boxing, after a knockout there are emotions exibited by the boxer that also alows the crowd to connect with someone on a personal. These types of interactions bridge the gap between spectators and competitors.
The showing up on time part is great, but the part about the chatting during games, and the bm are not. In sports, one of the biggest parts is each players personality. If you think that making the players all be the same person just with a different playstyle, the gaming industry will never grow, because people won't be able to connect with any of the players. People need emotion to attach on to a player, whether they like the nice guy or the bad boy or the showman it doesn't matter, but each player needs to have their own personality or no one will show up to watch that player play the game.
If you think they don't talk shit in major leagues like the NFL you are insane. Idra saying fuck off once in a match and you get all upset? Think of how many time it's being yelled at each other in a NFL game. Fining a player for saying the word fuck would only hurt the players and not really benefit us.
On July 08 2011 03:30 AlBundy wrote: A lot of people in this thread are saying "there's shit talk in a lot of sports so it's fine". What the fuck? I for one don't want esports to become like some of these real sports, you know, like football (soccer) where half the enthusiasts and supporters are retarded and/or alcohoolic douchebags. I want esports to stay classy and respectable. I don't want esports to become lowbrow entertainment like all these popular sports. But if it's already too late, then tell me and I'll go away.
I feel that at the end of the day, a lot of people on TL are just here for the drama, the trash talk and the immature behavior and that's it. I guess we're all just human beings after all. Shortsighted and dumb human beings.
Stop sounding like you're superior or any better than any of us. When Idra and MC BM each other and create drama, they are creating a hype that creates a spectator's sensation that gets you pumped to watch the game. I'm surprised that you know the entire football enthusiast community and have found that exactly "half" of them are retarded or alcoholic douche-bags. A sport is a sport to those who are playing it but it's also a spectator's game for those who watch it for entertainment and people like drama. From the days of Ancient Greece, Drama has entertained the minds of Emperors, Kings, citizens, and the homeless. We aren't dumb for loving something that startles our emotional senses, it's what makes us...us.
Yeah, Idra flipping off a fellow competitor is totally similar to ancient greece theatre. Sure. Euripides ain't got nuthin on ma boi Grack.
If you want e-sports to stay "classy and respectable", as you put it, then learn to appreciate unique perspectives that people have, learn to accept diversity and stop imposing your goddamn vision on everyone else, stop disregarding anyone who disagrees with your vision of greatness. Maybe your vision is not perfect, maybe far from it and arguing about your personal vision of e-sports and what it should be, and what is wrong with it - does not support e-sports, I assure you. It supports divisions and conflicts, mostly about trivial and unimportant or about misconceptions and petty desires of the human ego.
What works towards what is good for e-sports are not fucking visionaries with their judgements of what is, and what should be and what shouldn`t be and why who have to convince others to their opinion, as if they would fucking melt if they didn`t try to do this.
What really works towards what is good for e-sports is understanding, coherence and unity within the community - unity based on what naturally unites us - the genuinely shared passion, shared interests, shared enthusiasm.
Aren't players not supposed to chat during the game anyways unless for pp or to pause/fix something/bathroom? And idra only typed after his opponent did
On July 08 2011 04:07 Jakkerr wrote: boohoo sum1 said a bad word in public and I was able to read it fine him!
sigh.. I really don't get why this is a problem, ever.
I think it is probably a US problem (dunno about Canada/South America). I don't think European audiences are as sensitive about these things - I mean, we don't have censorship in our TV shows and nobody cares or sees a reason for it.
Finnish television doesn't beep/edit out bad words. It's the parents' responsibility to not let their kids watch it if they don't want their kids exposed. mki just tell your kids not to watch Starcraft so we can enjoy uncencored content.
The problem with the idea of this article is that every player isn't making a living off SC2 when at these events, and any person can join.(In the instant of MLG of course) Now when you talk about a CONSIDERABLE fine for something like this, it's ridiculous, people wouldn't be able to afford it, and it doesn't actually change the sport in any considerable way. If you decided to impose large fines on high school and university team players who swore, they couldn't do shit to pay, that's the same demographic (in general) you'd be hitting with such a fine/fee.
If you have to you could ban from events, give forfeits, etc. But you can't fucking fine people who most the time don't have the income to pay it.
One of the main reasons players get fined ( really sporting organizations) for bad language and sometimes mannerisms is because of the FCC and its governing over the broadcasting of the sport. For example, on the PGA tour, a a player swears and get heard on camera, they incur a ~$5,000 fine (these are so frequent and generally unimportant that these are unannounced) and is used to cover the penalty the PGA needs to pay the broadcaster who in which needs to pay the FCC for the violation of their terms and conditions. If Starcraft is not hindered by such, I see no practical way why a Starcraft would need to be fined, I mean, who would the money go to first of all? No one is governing the game's behavior (like the FCC and broadcasted sporting events).
On July 08 2011 03:56 MattBarry wrote: Why can't the TL user base look at threads like these and say "Oh man, I sure am tired of arguing this topic to death like we have for the past few months." Like any rational person would. You're not changing anyone's mind and it's annoying to be such trollbait.
Truthfully everytime i read a thread about Bad manner i just sort of roll my eyes.
This one was no exception
Its like someone opened a Starbucks right beside a Starbucks.
I disagree. But then again, i don't give a shit about eSports...i just want to have great tournaments that are entertaining. I believe that it's doable even with some BM.
I am not a psychic; I cannot see the future. However, I do see a future I no longer like to be apart of with eSports if we continue down this path of overall disrespect and bad manner. To me, the leagues shouldn't HAVE to create rules and enforce them with an iron fist. Being well mannered to each other should be something that should have been taught to you by your parents or people in your community and you should have enough respect for yourself and our community to enforce yourself. Don't like losing? Get over it. No one like's losing. It's a fact of life.
To me, as a manager, a sponsor, and as a person with a little common fucking sense..I will not support anyone that is not able to execute a little self-discipline and professionalism to others in his/her own community.
( That is also not a poke at Idra; or anyone in specific for that matter. I don't necessarily agree with Idra, and the way he acts..but he is getting better so I can at least appreciate that. Hopefully, he will continue to do so. )
I logged in to personally tell you your article is stupid and to fuck off. I'm tired of people complaining about BM in esports. Let's just suck all the fun out of shit.
On July 08 2011 04:22 CheckSix Gaming wrote: I am not a psychic; I cannot see the future. However, I do see a future I no longer like to be apart of with eSports if we continue down this path of overall disrespect and bad manner. To me, the leagues shouldn't HAVE to create rules and enforce them with an iron fist. Being well mannered to each other should be something that should have been taught to you by your parents or people in your community and you should have enough respect for yourself and our community to enforce yourself. Don't like losing? Get over it. No one like's losing. It's a fact of life.
To me, as a manager, a sponsor, and as a person with a little common fucking sense..I will not support anyone that is not able to execute a little self-discipline and professionalism to others in his/her own community.
( That is also not a poke at Idra; or anyone in specific for that matter. I don't necessarily agree with Idra, and the way he acts..but he is getting better so I can at least appreciate that. Hopefully, he will continue to do so. )
We shouldn't have to have laws that prohibit rape, robbery, and murder but....we do need it.
If you think that players BM'ing has a whole lot to do with how they were brought up, I think you got it all wrong. It's about having a competitive nature and feeling an instinctive burst of emotion when you win or lose that takes over a person's rationality. Not many players BM on a regular basis to everyone they meet which would indicate a psychological connection between the general familial education of a player.
Many players BM before and during games...not really after they lose. Idra didn't flip MC off after he lost...he did it during one of MCs funny "BMish" ceremonies and it created hype and drama that came from high levels emotions from both players.
This isn't a parochial private school...it's an online competitive computer game...
The other extreme is the Kespa control of BW. A player can only say a select few things, mainly gg to end a game. They have to type p a specific number of times to request a pause in game and are disqualified if the pause is found to be for insufficient reason (i.e. something other than a hardware problem or other serious issue). This sounds pretty good at first, but then you get things like players being disqualified for trivial things like typing the incorrect number of p's. While this sounds like a ridiculous extreme, you have to be very careful in drawing lines regarding this sort of thing and enforcing them. Allowing special cases makes for extra responsibility on the refs and possibility of abuse.
In addition, Kespa was the governing body for all of pro BW. In SC2 MLG, GSL, NASL, etc. would likely all have their own rules making for an even more confusing scene and more possible mistakes. The huge variety of map versions is an example of how this can become troublesome.
The idea behind outlawing BM in games can be argued based on freedom of speech or professionalism, but really the implementation is extremely complicated. Even if you could show that censorship of this sort of behavior was a must for the growth of the community, how could it possibly be done?
Every once in a while someone remarks on a difference between esports and pro physical sports, and then attributes that to be a cause in a lack of popularity of esports. Just like people who say that esports should use real names rather than nicknames. People here have no sense of proportion on what's important and what isn't.
On July 08 2011 04:09 desrow wrote: MYM is not very good at writing wait MYM is not very good at anything anymore. miss MYM with moon and good writers
I have heard that I'm not a good writer but it has always been constructive criticism and helped me improve (like a few posts already here). Your post is just:
"I've been around for a while back in the glory days everyone look at me". If you are going to critique especially in a way you did, at least give something constructive to not look like a complete asshole. It's one community we are part of - I wrote the article to stimulate discussion and that was accomplished. Your post didn't stimulate anything but "MYM sucks".
On July 08 2011 00:23 Dararr wrote: I'm trying to find where you explain WHY they MUST fine people for BM
I totally agree. Why does esports have to become the same as the NBA where everybody who opens their mouth gets fined a ridiculous amount of money? There's a difference between players and teams violating their contracts and people being who they are. I find it funny how you give an example on Idras "BM" when in fact Huk was the one violating MLG's rules for in game chatting. Though I don't mind these things at all. If anything it makes esports more interesting. I am not interested in a shallow version of esports where everbody is nice and everything is huge and fine and dandy and stuff.
The only reason that BM hasn't affected sponsorship is that the stakes are so low and nobody in the mainstream media is paying attention. All it will take is one article in the NYTimes about Intel sponsoring homophobic players, and pros calling people 'fags' in chat will stop cold, if they want to keep a sponsorship. And it will happen, eventually. It's an easy article to write, and will get plenty of attention for the first reporter that does it.
"I need an argument. Ooooo I know! I'll go look it up on Reddit, surely someone will agree with me and have an informed opinion that will legitimize my entire argument!"
And honestly it's a dumb opinion to have. Unless IdrA has been cheating on 12 hookers or abusing zerglings, no one in the right mind is going to start getting all butthurt about a couple of swear words.
You're taking the whole thing out of proportion.
What is it, do you have a personal vendetta? I wasn't looking for an argument it was a post I found while looking through reddit which didn't have any relation to any post that someone had posted before. Stop assuming things.
I think his issue, and probably the issue many people are having, is that your article doesn't do a good job of explaining your reasoning behind your thesis. I think that you assume that your point is obvious and therefore doesn't need explanation, but as is obvious from most of the replies here that is not true. If you don't argue the concept of censoring and professionalism itself, all you are doing is stating your opinion. But just stating your opinion is not your goal here. Your goal here is to inspire people to take action or see things your way (see: argument or persuasive article), hence, saying things like, "it's my opinion therefore it's biased" is not enough. You need to provide evidence, make more claims than your initial thesis, and most of all define and develop your idea.
You never explain why "unprofessionalism" is bad. Trust me, you don't. I'm looking at the article right now. There is not one sentence dedicated to explaining why this is so. Not one.
You say that BM and actions of the like should be denounced when possible, and mention that "the community's reaction was luckily very negative to this whole ordeal..." regarding the contracts issue. This is obviously an example of your stances on these issues and what you approve/disapprove of. But once again you do not tell me why this is the "right" stance to have on this.
You complain that major organizations do not take BM seriously enough and that traditional/"professional" sports keep manners hidden or private. You say that Starcraft is not currently like that, and that " The same needs to become true for electronic sports." .. Why? Stop telling me what I NEED to do, what MUST be done, and what SHOULD be true without telling me why. I KNOW that you want things a certain way, but you have to prove that your way is superior in some way and way. Maybe it's inferior, but argue that. You don't argue anything, simply state your views. You definitely have the right to state your views, but you cannot expect people to see things your way without arguing morally, logically, etc.
For example, I think that BM at this point in Starcraft 2 is helping it. From reading through several forums I have seen evidence of it igniting passion in spectators (positive or negative). I do not believe Starcraft's current audience is easily offended, and therefore companies who sponsor Starcraft will continue to do so and do not incur much more risk doing so. I think that censorship in general is a dumb idea because I believe it falls on the viewers/recipients to decide what is acceptable or not. No sweeping generalization will ever please everyone, but to think that popular opinion (which is what defines "acceptable") sets the standards for the filters that decide what information I get to receive is absurd in my opinion.
You don't offer evidence to dispute the logical or philosophical parts that constitute my opinion (notice, not argument). I am willing to bet that anyone who reads your article (your target audience as stated at the end) and has the power to do anything about it will be testing your argument against their logic, their philosophy, and their biases. If you don't challenge their views, how do you expect to change them?
So then the issue becomes, why did you write the article in the first place? It is likely not going to achieve your goal, you did not develop any novel ,or any, ideas, and you're apparently not swaying even the casual readers of this forum. The response you're receiving isn't about you. It is about the article. People will argue about anything, but in order to have a good discussion you need to have a clear way of presenting information/arguments to one another. I know that you have this idea in your head, but all we get to see is the information placed in front of us. There is only so much that we can deduce without risking misinterpretation or wild assumptions. People are angry because you have chosen a stance that is not popular without taking the time or effort to actually say anything. People have the same reaction to those who tell everyone they're going to hell on the train (I live in NYC) because they're not of the same religion, people who say that being gay is wrong using the argument "Marriage is sacred," and the list goes on and on. These are perfectly valid opinions, but don't expect me to accept them without any discussion or evidence. Let us at least rationalize for a bit.
I repeat myself, but this is because I think this is important for both you and whoever else decides to write up their opinion in an "article." If you're attempting to sway beliefs, you have to argue properly (as in using evidence, clear flows of logic, anything else I mentioned before - and more!). Bad writing (which is what this is) does not contribute much to more to E-Sports than the traffic it brings to random threads on TeamLiquid. I would even go so far as to argue that bad writing and articles such as these are BAD FOR E-SPORTS (hahaha, I said it), but that would require more thought, effort, research and most of all time which I do not have as I have to go get my passport application handed in.
In case this wasn't clear (since I'm kind of all over the place), I claim that people are reacting on the quality of your writing rather than your opinion (since it isn't developed at all in the article). Therefore expect people to not take it seriously, and for people to react negatively when you add in bits and pieces of your argument as you respond to posts. You should not develop your idea in your replies, they should be fairly clear from the "get-go."
I look forward to seeing more "high quality" opinionated articles from people in the future. Gotta go!
Hey, thanks for the constructive criticism. I'll definitely save this in a notepad somewhere as you have some great points on how I could improve as a write overall :D Thanks again - (no sarcasm)
In the meantime, do you mind to explain your reasoning, as in WHY we should enforce the measures you proposed?
On July 08 2011 04:22 CheckSix Gaming wrote: I am not a psychic; I cannot see the future. However, I do see a future I no longer like to be apart of with eSports if we continue down this path of overall disrespect and bad manner. To me, the leagues shouldn't HAVE to create rules and enforce them with an iron fist. Being well mannered to each other should be something that should have been taught to you by your parents or people in your community and you should have enough respect for yourself and our community to enforce yourself. Don't like losing? Get over it. No one like's losing. It's a fact of life.
To me, as a manager, a sponsor, and as a person with a little common fucking sense..I will not support anyone that is not able to execute a little self-discipline and professionalism to others in his/her own community.
( That is also not a poke at Idra; or anyone in specific for that matter. I don't necessarily agree with Idra, and the way he acts..but he is getting better so I can at least appreciate that. Hopefully, he will continue to do so. )
We shouldn't have to have laws that prohibit rape, robbery, and murder but....we do need it.
If you think that players BM'ing has a whole lot to do with how they were brought up, I think you got it all wrong. It's about having a competitive nature and feeling an instinctive burst of emotion when you win or lose that takes over a person's rationality. Not many players BM on a regular basis to everyone they meet which would indicate a psychological connection between the general familial education of a player.
Many players BM before and during games...not really after they lose. Idra didn't flip MC off after he lost...he did it during one of MCs funny "BMish" ceremonies and it created hype and drama that came from high levels emotions from both players.
This isn't a parochial private school...it's an online competitive computer game...
"A sudden burst of emotion when you win or lose that takes over a person's rationality." Exactly! It's something that you should be able to control..plain and simple. Like I said, losing is apart of life and you should be able to control a simple set of emotions after it. I feel extremely bad for you if you can't control those simple set of emotions..when there are much more emotion provoking things in life than losing..whether it be a small "clan war" or a giant tournament.
The idra moment where he flips off MC after MC "bm's" him is a completely separate occasion. That was nothing more than them playing to the masses. Not to mention, his response was warranted for the action. However, on MOST cases that is not true and you know it.
Also, I love how you use "online competitive computer game" as a derogatory statement like that's a bad thing. Yes, this is a computer game. However, there are plenty of people who treat this as a lot more than just a computer game. People in the community who actually give a shit, are not going to continue to use the excuse "uhhh..it's just a computer game". We need to get over that and start realizing that we CAN find a fine line in between "It's just a computer game" and it actually being a bit more than JUST that. If you simply don't care and just watch the game to see who crashes and burn's first..fine..but at least be honest with yourself and admit that.
If anyone has played any sort of competitive sport you know that 98% of the 'BM' doesnt get caught.
There are people in sports that do it on purpose (ocho) for the attention.
I had the privilege to play professional paintball and despite the harsh reffing, there was tons that slipped through the cracks. Characters make things entertaining, regardless if they are polite or not, and thats life.
not to disrespect of TL or anything, but HuK did started the conversation (in game) which is not supposed to happen. and by judging at that specific situation, basically Huk was taunting idra and idra replied with a 'fck off'. totally natural human response lol.
I have no idea how you are using IdrA as an example, when outside maybe once or twice, he is one of the most professional players at LAN tourneys.
If MLG seriously fined him for something as trivial as telling huk to fuck off, then I would personally stop watching, and would make it a goal to get others to do so as well to make a point.
On July 08 2011 04:48 BurningSera wrote: not to disrespect of TL or anything, but HuK did started the conversation (in game) which is not supposed to happen. and by judging at that specific situation, basically Huk was taunting idra and idra replied with a 'fck off'. totally natural human response lol.
No you have a point, but people are unrealistically expecting IdrA to respond with something like "oh, that was rather silly, well played"
"A sudden burst of emotion when you win or lose that takes over a person's rationality." Exactly! It's something that you should be able to control..plain and simple. Like I said, losing is apart of life and if you should be able to control a simple set of emotions after it. I feel extremely bad for you if you can't control those simple set of emotions..when there are much more emotion provoking things in life than losing..whether it be a small "clan war" or a giant tournament.
The idra moment where he flips off MC after MC "bm's" him is a completely separate occasion. That was nothing more than them playing to the masses. Not to mention, his response was warranted for the action. However, on MOST cases that is not true and you know it.
Also, I love how you use "online competitive computer game" as a derogatory statement like that's a bad thing. Yes, this is a computer game. However, there are plenty of people who treat this as a lot more than just a computer game. People in the community who actually give a shit, are not going to continue to use the excuse "uhhh..it's just a computer game". We need to get over that and start realizing that we CAN find a fine line in between "It's just a computer game" and it actually being a bit more than JUST that. If you simply don't care and just watch the game to see who crashes and burn's first..fine..but at least be honest with yourself and admit that.
Its extremely hypocritical of you to claim that people should not feel bad about losing, but then also state that we should take this more seriously then a game. Perhaps losing effects people more then it effects you because they are more passionate about the game, you probably know better then I do the amount of practice players put in. You say it yourself that people treat this as more then a computer game.
On July 08 2011 04:48 BurningSera wrote: not to disrespect of TL or anything, but HuK did started the conversation (in game) which is not supposed to happen. and by judging at that specific situation, basically Huk was taunting idra and idra replied with a 'fck off'. totally natural human response lol.
No you have a point, but people are unrealistically expecting IdrA to respond with something like "oh, that was rather silly, well played"
You both are incorrect. First off, it's my opinion both players were wrong in that circumstance. I also believe ( please correct me if I am wrong MLG/EG/TL ) but both were warned for their actions as well.
"A sudden burst of emotion when you win or lose that takes over a person's rationality." Exactly! It's something that you should be able to control..plain and simple. Like I said, losing is apart of life and if you should be able to control a simple set of emotions after it. I feel extremely bad for you if you can't control those simple set of emotions..when there are much more emotion provoking things in life than losing..whether it be a small "clan war" or a giant tournament.
The idra moment where he flips off MC after MC "bm's" him is a completely separate occasion. That was nothing more than them playing to the masses. Not to mention, his response was warranted for the action. However, on MOST cases that is not true and you know it.
Also, I love how you use "online competitive computer game" as a derogatory statement like that's a bad thing. Yes, this is a computer game. However, there are plenty of people who treat this as a lot more than just a computer game. People in the community who actually give a shit, are not going to continue to use the excuse "uhhh..it's just a computer game". We need to get over that and start realizing that we CAN find a fine line in between "It's just a computer game" and it actually being a bit more than JUST that. If you simply don't care and just watch the game to see who crashes and burn's first..fine..but at least be honest with yourself and admit that.
Its extremely hypocritical of you to claim that people should not feel bad about losing, but then also state that we should take this more seriously then a game. Perhaps losing effects people more then it effects you because they are more passionate about the game, you probably know better then I do the amount of practice players put in. You say it yourself that people treat this as more then a computer game.
There has to be a line between taking something seriously, and being able to control yourself and your emotions. I played youth baseball when I was younger...and was extremely competitive in it and loved it. However, when my team lost I did not tell the coach to go kill himself. Did I think that? Sure! haha.
Look everyone, I'm not saying all people should be robots here like people seem to be implying. I wish people would stop making this about polar opposites and instead understand that BOTH can co-exist and we don't have to have BM in order to keep things interesting. If you are honestly here just for the BM, then you don't truly like the game and should PROBABLY just go watch Nascar or something and wait for the crashes.
On July 08 2011 04:22 CheckSix Gaming wrote: I am not a psychic; I cannot see the future. However, I do see a future I no longer like to be apart of with eSports if we continue down this path of overall disrespect and bad manner. To me, the leagues shouldn't HAVE to create rules and enforce them with an iron fist. Being well mannered to each other should be something that should have been taught to you by your parents or people in your community and you should have enough respect for yourself and our community to enforce yourself. Don't like losing? Get over it. No one like's losing. It's a fact of life.
To me, as a manager, a sponsor, and as a person with a little common fucking sense..I will not support anyone that is not able to execute a little self-discipline and professionalism to others in his/her own community.
( That is also not a poke at Idra; or anyone in specific for that matter. I don't necessarily agree with Idra, and the way he acts..but he is getting better so I can at least appreciate that. Hopefully, he will continue to do so. )
We shouldn't have to have laws that prohibit rape, robbery, and murder but....we do need it.
If you think that players BM'ing has a whole lot to do with how they were brought up, I think you got it all wrong. It's about having a competitive nature and feeling an instinctive burst of emotion when you win or lose that takes over a person's rationality. Not many players BM on a regular basis to everyone they meet which would indicate a psychological connection between the general familial education of a player.
Many players BM before and during games...not really after they lose. Idra didn't flip MC off after he lost...he did it during one of MCs funny "BMish" ceremonies and it created hype and drama that came from high levels emotions from both players.
This isn't a parochial private school...it's an online competitive computer game...
"A sudden burst of emotion when you win or lose that takes over a person's rationality." Exactly! It's something that you should be able to control..plain and simple. Like I said, losing is apart of life and you should be able to control a simple set of emotions after it. I feel extremely bad for you if you can't control those simple set of emotions..when there are much more emotion provoking things in life than losing..whether it be a small "clan war" or a giant tournament.
The idra moment where he flips off MC after MC "bm's" him is a completely separate occasion. That was nothing more than them playing to the masses. Not to mention, his response was warranted for the action. However, on MOST cases that is not true and you know it.
Also, I love how you use "online competitive computer game" as a derogatory statement like that's a bad thing. Yes, this is a computer game. However, there are plenty of people who treat this as a lot more than just a computer game. People in the community who actually give a shit, are not going to continue to use the excuse "uhhh..it's just a computer game". We need to get over that and start realizing that we CAN find a fine line in between "It's just a computer game" and it actually being a bit more than JUST that. If you simply don't care and just watch the game to see who crashes and burn's first..fine..but at least be honest with yourself and admit that.
I don't know why a player needs to control his happiness after winning or showing some frustration or anger when they lose. They practice for hours each day and with all that investment, any normal human being would be frustrated when they lose.
You can't just label something that falls so obviously into the BM category as a separate occasion because it also falls under the "entertaining" category. It was a clear BM that was hilarious and created a lot of hype for the upcoming series.
I didn't use it as a bad thing. I was just saying it's different from a parochial private school. I don't know where you got that I was saying it was a derogatory thing? I've played CS competitively for many years now and I have the same passion that I think you have for esports as well. CS, SC2, etc is what it is: a competitive online computer game. It's different from professional sports, different from a totalitarian regime, and is unique in its own sense.
As you can see, people in the community who "give a shit" (the forum-goers here), think that BM'ing isn't a Capital Crime or a Deadly Sin, and that it just creates a more entertaining atmosphere.
It's impossible to find a fine line between those two. If you can, you should just say what it is and stop beating around the bush. There are aspects of esports that allude to the games being just games and aspects of esports that point to the games being more than just games. It's a gray area that the community has been trying to balance and find for years now on hltv.org forums, sk-gaming forums, teamliquid forums, and many other gaming forums.
Instead of me being honest with myself, you should look at what you're saying and then see what the rest of the community has been saying.
On July 08 2011 01:44 Slusher wrote: I don't know about you but I fucking can't get enough of traditional sports players saying they are just going to take it game by game.
and that upcoming game against the team that knocked them out of the playoffs last year. Going to prepare hard just like any other week.
can't forget the upcoming game against the cream puff opponent, "Important not to look ahead to the following week until we get there"
oh man professionalism is so mesmerizing.
Yeah, man. Bad publicity is good publicity. It gets your name out! Free advertising! Seems to work well for the LA Lakers after acting like retards when they got swept. Lebron James is just rolling in the publicity. Clearly no one gave a shit about the Mavs. They need to elbow people more.
Are you posting from some fantasy world where Mark Cuban doesn't exist?
Yeah, Mark Cuban defending his team is BM. I'm starting to think people's definition of BM is a bit loose...
And Kobe punching a chair? C'mon people...
...Mark Cuban does way more than defend his team. Pointing at a player's mom and saying her son is a thug would qualify as BM.
You're worried about the immaturity of esports fans? Have you EVER been to an NFL game? Have you EVER been to an SEC football game? How about a champions league game? you are deluding yourself if you think the most successful sports are full of robots and robot fans who never say bad things. BM should be discouraged. Personalities should not.
Why do people watch sports? The athleticism, the excitement, and the character of the players.
1) Athleticism = Skill
There's enough of that already ready. Foreign scene is behind the Korean scene in practicing, but that's actively being changed.
2) Excitement = well....excitement
Yeah, enough of that
3) Character of the players = BM, Drama, etc. etc.
You know why people like players doing duck walks and shaking their asses in the end zone? Because it's hilarious. They universally hate the refs whenever the refs call an unsportsmanlike penalty on them. I don't know of one friend who's like "Oh, yeah, that fucker totally deserved the fine for pointing his fingers to the sky." Which, by the way, is a legit way to get a penalty called on you for celebration in the NFL.
Other sports? I'm sure there are equivalents, but I'm only fully aware of the NFL bullshittery. Everyone likes being on the field and maybe hearing the back and forth between a really fired up linebacker and wide receiver. Boxing makes most of its hype at the weigh ins and pre-fight interviews, where the boxers and trainers usually have a few words exchanged.
I guarantee to fining Idra for saying "fuck off" in game chat is only counterproductive. Right now that's the only place we really get player interaction. And outside of the game, if we start fining for ceremonies and taunts, then you're just getting way too prudish.
I promise you guys, ESPORTS will not die because someone cursed in game. If it does, then I'll buy you all a car.
This is ridiculous. The BM of equivalent to saying "fuck off" in any physical sport would be pushing someone else or punching them in the face. People cuss all the time in sports on the field or court without getting fined. If you don't know that... well now you do, and if you think otherwise you are wrong, very wrong. Huk was the one that was more BM in that exchange anyway, he was the one that directly broke MLGs rules without being punished. Idra is on the receiving end of more BM than any other player in the scene, he also undoubtedly has the biggest following of any player outside of Korea. To fine him or any other player for their conduct would be silly unless there is any physical altercations between players, then you could have an argument.
On July 08 2011 04:48 BurningSera wrote: not to disrespect of TL or anything, but HuK did started the conversation (in game) which is not supposed to happen. and by judging at that specific situation, basically Huk was taunting idra and idra replied with a 'fck off'. totally natural human response lol.
No you have a point, but people are unrealistically expecting IdrA to respond with something like "oh, that was rather silly, well played"
You both are incorrect. First off, it's my opinion both players were wrong in that circumstance. I also believe ( please correct me if I am wrong MLG/EG/TL ) but both were warned for their actions as well.
"A sudden burst of emotion when you win or lose that takes over a person's rationality." Exactly! It's something that you should be able to control..plain and simple. Like I said, losing is apart of life and if you should be able to control a simple set of emotions after it. I feel extremely bad for you if you can't control those simple set of emotions..when there are much more emotion provoking things in life than losing..whether it be a small "clan war" or a giant tournament.
The idra moment where he flips off MC after MC "bm's" him is a completely separate occasion. That was nothing more than them playing to the masses. Not to mention, his response was warranted for the action. However, on MOST cases that is not true and you know it.
Also, I love how you use "online competitive computer game" as a derogatory statement like that's a bad thing. Yes, this is a computer game. However, there are plenty of people who treat this as a lot more than just a computer game. People in the community who actually give a shit, are not going to continue to use the excuse "uhhh..it's just a computer game". We need to get over that and start realizing that we CAN find a fine line in between "It's just a computer game" and it actually being a bit more than JUST that. If you simply don't care and just watch the game to see who crashes and burn's first..fine..but at least be honest with yourself and admit that.
Its extremely hypocritical of you to claim that people should not feel bad about losing, but then also state that we should take this more seriously then a game. Perhaps losing effects people more then it effects you because they are more passionate about the game, you probably know better then I do the amount of practice players put in. You say it yourself that people treat this as more then a computer game.
There has to be a line between taking something seriously, and being able to control yourself and your emotions. I played youth baseball when I was younger...and was extremely competitive in it and loved it. However, when my team lost I did not tell the coach to go kill himself. Did I think that? Sure! haha.
Look everyone, I'm not saying all people should be robots here like people seem to be implying. I wish people would stop making this about polar opposites and instead understand that BOTH can co-exist and we don't have to have BM in order to keep things interesting. If you are honestly here just for the BM, then you don't truly like the game and should PROBABLY just go watch Nascar or something and wait for the crashes.
See dude, your point is so hypocritical. You say that we don't need BM to keep it interesting but then right before that you say that BOTH can co-exist. Refine your point before you present it man, it's just confusing me now. If you think co-exist is possible, you're on the same page as me but I don't think you are. I think that BM and professionalism can co-exist but it's a very gray area. You want the players to get rid of BM altogether and say that if you like BM at all, you don't like SC2 and should go watch Nascar. BM keeps it interesting and many people love drama. If House didn't have the romance and drama next to the medical genius of Dr. House, would people be as interested? Of course not. The drama that comes from BM is a side gesture that enhances the hype and interest of people of important matches.
On July 08 2011 04:48 BurningSera wrote: not to disrespect of TL or anything, but HuK did started the conversation (in game) which is not supposed to happen. and by judging at that specific situation, basically Huk was taunting idra and idra replied with a 'fck off'. totally natural human response lol.
No you have a point, but people are unrealistically expecting IdrA to respond with something like "oh, that was rather silly, well played"
You both are incorrect. First off, it's my opinion both players were wrong in that circumstance. I also believe ( please correct me if I am wrong MLG/EG/TL ) but both were warned for their actions as well.
"A sudden burst of emotion when you win or lose that takes over a person's rationality." Exactly! It's something that you should be able to control..plain and simple. Like I said, losing is apart of life and if you should be able to control a simple set of emotions after it. I feel extremely bad for you if you can't control those simple set of emotions..when there are much more emotion provoking things in life than losing..whether it be a small "clan war" or a giant tournament.
The idra moment where he flips off MC after MC "bm's" him is a completely separate occasion. That was nothing more than them playing to the masses. Not to mention, his response was warranted for the action. However, on MOST cases that is not true and you know it.
Also, I love how you use "online competitive computer game" as a derogatory statement like that's a bad thing. Yes, this is a computer game. However, there are plenty of people who treat this as a lot more than just a computer game. People in the community who actually give a shit, are not going to continue to use the excuse "uhhh..it's just a computer game". We need to get over that and start realizing that we CAN find a fine line in between "It's just a computer game" and it actually being a bit more than JUST that. If you simply don't care and just watch the game to see who crashes and burn's first..fine..but at least be honest with yourself and admit that.
Its extremely hypocritical of you to claim that people should not feel bad about losing, but then also state that we should take this more seriously then a game. Perhaps losing effects people more then it effects you because they are more passionate about the game, you probably know better then I do the amount of practice players put in. You say it yourself that people treat this as more then a computer game.
There has to be a line between taking something seriously, and being able to control yourself and your emotions. I played youth baseball when I was younger...and was extremely competitive in it and loved it. However, when my team lost I did not tell the coach to go kill himself. Did I think that? Sure! haha.
Look everyone, I'm not saying all people should be robots here like people seem to be implying. I wish people would stop making this about polar opposites and instead understand that BOTH can co-exist and we don't have to have BM in order to keep things interesting. If you are honestly here just for the BM, then you don't truly like the game and should PROBABLY just go watch Nascar or something and wait for the crashes.
See dude, your point is so hypocritical. You say that we don't need BM to keep it interesting but then right before that you say that BOTH can co-exist. Refine your point before you present it man, it's just confusing me now. If you think co-exist is possible, you're on the same page as me but I don't think you are. I think that BM and professionalism can co-exist but it's a very gray area. You want the players to get rid of BM altogether and say that if you like BM at all, you don't like SC2 and should go watch Nascar. BM keeps it interesting and many people love drama. If House didn't have the romance and drama next to the medical genius of Dr. House, would people be as interested? Of course not. The drama that comes from BM is a side gesture that enhances the hype and interest of people of important matches.
What I meant by both can co-exist is that it can still be interesting, without people being BM to each other. I think I thoroughly explained that in my comment right before saying that I am not saying we all need to be robots. You're telling me that the BM makes it interesting and I am telling you that I don't need the players I watch to call another player an asshole in order for it to be interesting..the games can stand on their own merit. They don't need "drama" to spice things up. Once again, I also feel like if you truly need that drama to be interested you are not here for the games, you're here to see the chaos.
EDIT: You also said you were from CS as well, right? Well, how much "BM" was there in high level CS? Not a lot. Rivalries were developed, there was still a bit of drama..and some amazing matches were played. You do not have to have BM in order to have great matches and interesting content.
Anyone who thinks that BM and controversy harm e-sports is deluded quite frankly. Taking into consideration target markets, age ranges, and the general nature of a community that revolves around internet communication, it would seem obvious that drama, abrasive personalities, and outrageous behavior are all contributing to the current success of e-sports. The scene thrives on opposition, on the excitement that comes with seeing a foul-mouthed player come up against a "good" guy. There are examples everywhere. Look at players like Idra and MC. They present themselves as incredibly unique players who combine attitude with skill, occasionally celebrating with ceremonies and losing with anger. The end result? Huge fanbases for both, and the reason is clear.
You guys are giving a ton of examples where BM happens in other sports. However the point is - all those sports look down upon that - we're the only one that encourages it. So don't say that BM is good because they do it in traditional sports.
On July 08 2011 05:28 mki wrote: You guys are giving a ton of examples where BM happens in other sports. However the point is - all those sports look down upon that - we're the only one that encourages it. So don't say that BM is good because they do it in traditional sports.
Why do you keep makings shit up now? :X
Nobody "encourages" it. We just don't care in most cases because it is super trivial.
Do you think if Destiny played in a MLG and called insulted someones sexuality or race, people would not be upset?
There is a MASSIVE difference between saying fuck off to someone and calling someone a faggot.
On July 08 2011 05:28 mki wrote: You guys are giving a ton of examples where BM happens in other sports. However the point is - all those sports look down upon that - we're the only one that encourages it. So don't say that BM is good because they do it in traditional sports.
Just a bit of advice, stop using the term BM! In the article you state that we should frown on bm, then go on to give an awful example when it comes to defining what bm is. I think everyone here agrees that there is a certain line that shouldn't be crossed, what your trying to do is determine where that line is. The only problem is you make no mention of said line, instead you just state "BM" as if everyones idea of bm is the same.
On July 08 2011 05:28 mki wrote: You guys are giving a ton of examples where BM happens in other sports. However the point is - all those sports look down upon that - we're the only one that encourages it. So don't say that BM is good because they do it in traditional sports.
Either way, it is definitely worth mentioning that e-sports is so incredibly different from athletic competition, so much so that these comparisons are useless no matter which side one takes. The standards of e-sport professionalism should reflect their user base, complete with trolls and wk's. To adhere to some arbitrary standard decided upon by organizations like the NBA or NFL seems the utmost of conformist stupidity. All in all, the character of e-sports is yet to be fully fleshed out, but this seems like a conservative morality play that most gamers would scoff at.
Let me guess! The original poster also condemned Tasteless' sex joke during a GSL airing because it is "killing esports" and not professional too? -_- Seriously you guys would kill most of the fun of esports, and the connection gamers have to the scene and personalities if you guys had your way with it. I would considerably lose a huge amount of interest if this were to happen.
Idra does more good and growth for the scene the way he is and you want to fine him for cursing?! That's absurd considering how this scene is still growing, and how much (lack of) money the majority of pro players make.
The sponsors knows the demographics and how our gaming culture is, so why change the program into something it is not like some boring square golf tournament? It'll just do more harm if all of sudden our scene, our casters and our players started became "total professionals". Tastosis wouldn't be the same, some memorable MLG events wouldn't have happened, these dumb but sometimes entertaining ceremonies, good manner players looking even more good manner compared to the bad manner players, the drama and stories that keeps viewers attention etc. etc. This game and the sponsors are targetting preteens to their late 20's so I don't think the sponsors are too worried about "BM".
On July 08 2011 05:28 mki wrote: You guys are giving a ton of examples where BM happens in other sports. However the point is - all those sports look down upon that - we're the only one that encourages it. So don't say that BM is good because they do it in traditional sports.
Why do you keep makings shit up now? :X
Nobody "encourages" it. We just don't care in most cases because it is super trivial.
Do you think if Destiny played in a MLG and called insulted someones sexuality or race, people would not be upset?
There is a MASSIVE difference between saying fuck off to someone and calling someone a faggot.
Are you kidding me? I can find at least 10 quotes where people ENCOURAGE it where they say - it's what makes e-sports fun...and "I like seeing it". Read the thread man.
On July 08 2011 04:48 BurningSera wrote: not to disrespect of TL or anything, but HuK did started the conversation (in game) which is not supposed to happen. and by judging at that specific situation, basically Huk was taunting idra and idra replied with a 'fck off'. totally natural human response lol.
No you have a point, but people are unrealistically expecting IdrA to respond with something like "oh, that was rather silly, well played"
You both are incorrect. First off, it's my opinion both players were wrong in that circumstance. I also believe ( please correct me if I am wrong MLG/EG/TL ) but both were warned for their actions as well.
"A sudden burst of emotion when you win or lose that takes over a person's rationality." Exactly! It's something that you should be able to control..plain and simple. Like I said, losing is apart of life and if you should be able to control a simple set of emotions after it. I feel extremely bad for you if you can't control those simple set of emotions..when there are much more emotion provoking things in life than losing..whether it be a small "clan war" or a giant tournament.
The idra moment where he flips off MC after MC "bm's" him is a completely separate occasion. That was nothing more than them playing to the masses. Not to mention, his response was warranted for the action. However, on MOST cases that is not true and you know it.
Also, I love how you use "online competitive computer game" as a derogatory statement like that's a bad thing. Yes, this is a computer game. However, there are plenty of people who treat this as a lot more than just a computer game. People in the community who actually give a shit, are not going to continue to use the excuse "uhhh..it's just a computer game". We need to get over that and start realizing that we CAN find a fine line in between "It's just a computer game" and it actually being a bit more than JUST that. If you simply don't care and just watch the game to see who crashes and burn's first..fine..but at least be honest with yourself and admit that.
Its extremely hypocritical of you to claim that people should not feel bad about losing, but then also state that we should take this more seriously then a game. Perhaps losing effects people more then it effects you because they are more passionate about the game, you probably know better then I do the amount of practice players put in. You say it yourself that people treat this as more then a computer game.
There has to be a line between taking something seriously, and being able to control yourself and your emotions. I played youth baseball when I was younger...and was extremely competitive in it and loved it. However, when my team lost I did not tell the coach to go kill himself. Did I think that? Sure! haha.
Look everyone, I'm not saying all people should be robots here like people seem to be implying. I wish people would stop making this about polar opposites and instead understand that BOTH can co-exist and we don't have to have BM in order to keep things interesting. If you are honestly here just for the BM, then you don't truly like the game and should PROBABLY just go watch Nascar or something and wait for the crashes.
See dude, your point is so hypocritical. You say that we don't need BM to keep it interesting but then right before that you say that BOTH can co-exist. Refine your point before you present it man, it's just confusing me now. If you think co-exist is possible, you're on the same page as me but I don't think you are. I think that BM and professionalism can co-exist but it's a very gray area. You want the players to get rid of BM altogether and say that if you like BM at all, you don't like SC2 and should go watch Nascar. BM keeps it interesting and many people love drama. If House didn't have the romance and drama next to the medical genius of Dr. House, would people be as interested? Of course not. The drama that comes from BM is a side gesture that enhances the hype and interest of people of important matches.
What I meant by both can co-exist is that it can still be interesting, without people being BM to each other. I think I thoroughly explained that in my comment right before saying that I am not saying we all need to be robots. You're telling me that the BM makes it interesting and I am telling you that I don't need the players I watch to call another player an asshole in order for it to be interesting..the games can stand on their own merit. They don't need "drama" to spice things up. Once again, I also feel like if you truly need that drama to be interested you are not here for the games, you're here to see the chaos.
EDIT: You also said you were from CS as well, right? Well, how much "BM" was there in high level CS? Not a lot. Rivalries were developed, there was still a bit of drama..and some amazing matches were played. You do not have to have BM in order to have great matches and interesting content.
Between teams and players there's plenty of BM in CS. Even recently during DreamHack, Na'Vi Ceh9 exploded after beating SK-Gaming in just 1 round. So I don't think you know what you're talking about in term of counter-strike. Wall-e from SK has been recorded talking trash about the entire EG line-up previously. And Spawn has been video-taped talking shit about fnatic.f0rest back in the day. There are plenty of other examples even among American teams, that you clearly have no idea about.
Your logic that BM leads to chaos is confusing to me...The players might not need drama to spice things up but people watching like it...heck even other pro's like a little bit of drama from BM spicing up big spotlight matches.
You're right, you don't need to call another player an asshole but MC's "BMish" ceremonies and little witty "BM" comments like "Are you angry?" are great for the spectators in creating a sense of excitement and anticipation.
What you're saying is on the lines of, if you need the drama behind the medical intentions of Dr. House, you aren't here for the medicine, you're here for the chaos. How does that make sense?
Esports has a whole entire side to it called "SPECTATING" and for esports spectating is a huge part of it and with drama comes more spectators. Do you really think 10,000 people would be writing "OOOOOOOOOOO MC VS IDRA" if that type of BM didn't happen. It created an increased popularity for the match-up and it's good for the game.
I'm not saying BM is essential for the game but I don't think it's a bad thing. You're saying get rid of it. I'm saying it's already here and it isn't bad at all so we shouldn't worry about it.
What chaos are you talking about? I don't see EG dropping Idra, MC being banned from events, battle.net geting lulzsec'ed, or the rapture ensuing....
I don't think that anybody who would be honestly offended by the shit that gets said by gamers would be interested in esports, anyway. If the demographic we're going after is 16-24 year old guys (just watch the ads during MLG), then this whole idea of professionalism is stupid.
I don't know much about SK, Fnatic, and Delphan, but in that example my main concern would be for the player's rights, not any team's supposed right to a player. And in the case of simple BM, I think it's better the way it is. esports came from the internet after all, so it ought to show it's run by the ideals of young people who aren't stupid enough to fine or punish players who already make less money than salaried physical athletes over some simple words. Again, in this case let the rights be with the player.
Listen OP, I'm gonna be frank with you: You're out of touch, and you're contradicting yourself. BM is not hurting e-sports. We are not going to get a ton of new people watching streams and tournaments by having everyone act like a robot. Sure, I agree that there should definitely be some limits, but the idea that BM in and of itself should be outlawed is absolutely absurd. Take the great UCLA vs USC(two colleges with football teams for anyone not sport savvy) rivalry for example. This rivalry is built on bragging rights and beating the other team into submission. I can guarantee you the fans in the crowds aren't shouting "Effectively outplay the other team in a sportsman-like fashion team!". I don't think that would go over well as a chant. I'd also like to take offense to the fact that in tons of your responses in this thread you don't actually address what people are saying, you just tell them they're wrong. Look at the top of this page for example "so don't say that bm is good because they do it in traditional sports". This SCREAMS elitism. You're trying to dictate the responses. Why even make a thread if you aren't going to allow for any discussion? Even in your OP you are trying to dictate what MUST happen as though you have some intrinsic knowledge of what will give E-sports billions of viewers. I hate to break it to you, but I have literally never heard of your website before this page, and I think that indicates that you may not be the person to say what NEEDS to happen in e-sports. I don't mean that in a "who the f--- are you?" way, I mean it in the context that you guys aren't MLG or GSL. Now for the contradictions. A page or two ago you referred to a person as a "complete asshole" for responding to this thread in a way you disliked. Really? Aren't you the guy against BM? It's very clear that there's some dissonance between what you're saying and the way you conduct yourself.
but people watch him play for hours on end. Why? Because of his personality. IdrA would have thousands less fans if he didn't show his "BM"; which isn't actually BM, in my opinion, as I would classify BM as actively trying to anger your opponent as opposed to IdrA who is just very honest about his opinions of other players. In SoTG ep 40 or 41 IdrA talks about why he flipped off the MLG interviewer after his loss. There's nothing wrong with that, he was provoked, he's a human being.
But, I digress. The point is, would one watch MLG/DH/GSL/Whatever if it was just plain replays being streamed? No, the tournament would lose at least 95% of its viewers. The personalities of commentators make the event what it is. Whether it's pure entertainment, such as TB or analytical mastery with IdrA or a combination of the two such as Tastosis, the game is based on the personalities and the amazing things that happen when like minded individuals meet over an interest. In that interest, yes, it's similiar to sports. But this will be a very different scene for a long time, perhaps infinitely. Perhaps when we see SC10 broadcasted on main TV channels and progaming teams advertise on everyday products, maybe it will be toned down. But for now, stop trying to change a wonderful thing, emotion.
P.S. No offence to any, i'm just trying to state my opinion and I don't have time to change this to cater to those that seek to be or are easily offended.
On July 08 2011 04:09 desrow wrote: MYM is not very good at writing wait MYM is not very good at anything anymore. miss MYM with moon and good writers
I have heard that I'm not a good writer but it has always been constructive criticism and helped me improve (like a few posts already here). Your post is just:
"I've been around for a while back in the glory days everyone look at me". If you are going to critique especially in a way you did, at least give something constructive to not look like a complete asshole. It's one community we are part of - I wrote the article to stimulate discussion and that was accomplished. Your post didn't stimulate anything but "MYM sucks".
Quality post.
Just consider yourself lucky that I cared enough to call you out. Your article is just a notch higher than "this article is crap i won't even bother post a comment".
On July 08 2011 05:47 Helio-s wrote: Listen OP, I'm gonna be frank with you: You're out of touch, and you're contradicting yourself. BM is not hurting e-sports. We are not going to get a ton of new people watching streams and tournaments by having everyone act like a robot. Sure, I agree that there should definitely be some limits, but the idea that BM in and of itself should be outlawed is absolutely absurd. Take the great UCLA vs USC(two colleges with football teams for anyone not sport savvy) rivalry for example. This rivalry is built on bragging rights and beating the other team into submission. I can guarantee you the fans in the crowds aren't shouting "Effectively outplay the other team in a sportsman-like fashion team!". I don't think that would go over well as a chant. I'd also like to take offense to the fact that in tons of your responses in this thread you don't actually address what people are saying, you just tell them they're wrong. Look at the top of this page for example "so don't say that bm is good because they do it in traditional sports". This SCREAMS elitism. You're trying to dictate the responses. Why even make a thread if you aren't going to allow for any discussion? Even in your OP you are trying to dictate what MUST happen as though you have some intrinsic knowledge of what will give E-sports billions of viewers. I hate to break it to you, but I have literally never heard of your website before this page, and I think that indicates that you may not be the person to say what NEEDS to happen in e-sports. I don't mean that in a "who the f--- are you?" way, I mean it in the context that you guys aren't MLG or GSL. Now for the contradictions. A page or two ago you referred to a person as a "complete asshole" for responding to this thread in a way you disliked. Really? Aren't you the guy against BM? It's very clear that there's some dissonance between what you're saying and the way you conduct yourself.
I'm in no way an example for the entire community to follow. Don't compare me to someone who has the viewership of IdrA. Also - the entire point was anti-BM in a public setting from professional players. Don't even use the argument, lead by example. This article was a suggestion (and yes a strong push towards my opinion), but a suggestion nonetheless.
I called him an asshole not because I didn't like his opinion. I called him an asshole because his post brought nothing to the thread yet he still found it necessary to place it there. It only brought negativity without contributing anything else.
On July 08 2011 02:45 Red Rain wrote: Bad manner on the field of play is not met with a fine; it is met with a penalty. Only extreme examples of BM are met with actual fines. In the SC2 esports I have watched, there has not been an example of BM worthy of a fine.
Wrong, football fines players all the time for on-field antics, Basketball does it too. Baseball is the one that doesn't really go that path.
Incorrect. Play celebrations and trash talking occur in every single game in football and basketball. The vast vast majority receive neither a penalty nor a fine. Excessive cases receive a penalty and only a tiny portion receive any kind of fine. I would be surprised if fines given for such antics outnumbered the fines given for illegal hits and uniform violations.
You again tell me I can't do something. Especially infuriating due to the fact that you're saying I can't hold you responsible for breaking the views you're promoting in the very same thread. Just because his post was negative doesn't mean it didn't bring anything, and you still called him an asshole. I'm afraid I've just added MYM to my blocksite list due to your actions and this article. I don't want to turn this into a flamewar so may I just suggest you consider trying to open your mind.
On July 08 2011 05:57 Helio-s wrote: You again tell me I can't do something. Especially infuriating due to the fact that you're saying I can't hold you responsible for breaking the views you're promoting in the very same thread. Just because his post was negative doesn't mean it didn't bring anything, and you still called him an asshole. I'm afraid I've just added MYM to my blocksite list due to your actions and this article. I don't want to turn this into a flamewar so may I just suggest you consider trying to open your mind.
Participating teams should fine the event coordinators when they get repeat internet problems and crappy equipment that barely run the games. Road goes both ways... if the event coordinators can't provide the services agreed to in the contracts they also should be held liable.
On July 08 2011 03:06 zz_ wrote: The Huk-Idra ss is out of context and I don't exactly agree with what you say, I think the drama that comes from the bm far outweighs the "public appeal" that we lose.
After all, I watch esports to be entertained, not because I want it to become the new Soccer.
My problem with this article is how seriously it is taking the idea of "esports." Yes, its a great source of entertainment, but of the issues that must be addressed to taking it more mainstream, is the greatest problem the bad-manner? Even the thought of gaming in mainstream culture brings up negative stigma.
And then there is another problem with the much-mentioned lack of precision in "manner." Are you proposing to regulate them in ladder as well, because the parallel there would be to prevent players in any sport to cuss in practice. And the singular image of a cuss in tourney represents a mutual breaking of rules, as well as significant backstory. So in terms of in-game in-tournament bad manner, there is not much (unless you count GG as necessary, at which point you would have to make every basketball player shake hands after every game- which is not, and will not be true)
Being polite is never bad. However, were I to make a change to competitive gaming, the manner would be one of my least favorite things to change. In fact the bad manner draws many people in.
I just have the nagging feeling this BM is not professional thing is one step on the road to players receiving "media training" and have to watch their words to a degree that their personality cannot manifest itself any longer and everyone just comes across like a politically correct zombie while actually not really saying anything.
I watch in pain when in soccer a player gets interviewed and you see the poor fuckwit struggle to find words that are publicly acceptable whilst through all that u see the shimmering ghost of a human being begging for the interview to be over so he can act normal again.
So when someone writes an article pins the subject of solid contracts and using bad words in a broadcasted game together and jams it under the name of professionalism. I for one would like a bit of a crowbar separation between the two. Because the first is about having things etched in stone and making good solid business deals and the second is about keeping up appearances and not saying anything offensive because it might anger consumer gods. And when people try not to say anything offensive, they're less than two steps away from not saying anything at all. (Illustrated by Chill's neutral TSL broadcast after getting flack that he was racist towards the Koreans some TSL games)
How do you not say anything offensive on the internet anyways ?
On July 08 2011 00:36 Stiluz wrote: I despise actions of trying to excert your own sense of "morality" (e.g. profanity) on others and try to call if professionalism. I want the players to be themselves and I don't care for people forcing this form of "professionalism". A sport or competition can be professional while at the same time maintaining some real humanity and emotions, just look football (european football that is). The bickering between Wenger and Dalgish (sp?) included a lot of profanity. I guess the limit is when the players direct insults at the audience (Rooney swearing at the camera, though it was later explained he was just pissed at the camera guy). Personally, I don't want to see the SC2 scene be devoid of emotions and if things like the BM between Huk and Idra is how they show their emotions for example, that's a great thing.
Profanity should not be excepted in any kind of professional conversation or public setting. That is my morality, but it also many other peoples. If there is a chance to alienate and offend someone in a public or professional setting you should not do that thing.
This article is incredibly stupid and short sighted. You can't compare a "fuck off" response in a game to fine-able offenses in professional sports. I've NEVER seen someone get fined in the NBA or NFL for trash talk... EVER! Sure if it gets physical or disrupts the game they may get fouls but the offenses that actually incur fines are pretty severe.
That article states that a player was given a $50k fine for a helmet-to-helmet hit in a game. Something that can cause another player serious harm. The $50k fine may seem like a lot to someone like me but he makes $3M+ a year. I mean if you want to say that an eSports player physically harming another player gets fine a little over 1.6% of their base yearly salary I guess I could get behind that but saying people should be fined for regular BM is a statement that lacks intelligence.
The issue with player stealing is indeed an issue of professionalism, but it's up to the teams to make sure their contracts are solid enough that they can take legal action if a situation such as player poaching arises. That's not really on the tournament organizations to regulate though, that just means that more teams are going to have to operate on a higher level, I think that EG is doing a great job of setting an example for where that should go for most teams.
Here's what the OP PM'd me My reponse: When I post in the teamliquid forums I don't post as a pro-gamer. I post as a citizen of the starcraft 2 community. Your article is all about stirring shit up and creating fake drama. we need people like idra what we dont need is has been writers who are looking for glory
His PM
Original Message From mki: I'm not going to bring this into a public forum war but you made me chuckle:
He's quoting my post 1 page back Just consider yourself lucky that I cared enough to call you out. Your article is just a notch higher than "this article is crap i won't even bother post a comment".
I could just as easily say --- your play is just a notch higher that I noticed it a little bit. But the fact of the matter is. I couldn't give a rats ass that you responded to my article. You're not THAT amazing of a player. Just better than most but not as good as the vast majority of pro's.
The whole point of PMing you wasn't to bring it into a public forum war. I'm glad that you're so noble as to post as a citizen of the entire SC2 community and not as a pro. I'm not a writer looking for glory - I'm an editor who is looking to get my opinion known and start a discussion. I accomplished that.
You don't know me at all - don't go out saying I'm looking to create fake drama. I've worked at many top organizations and I'm sure that most if not all will vouch for me that I love and am more passionate about e-sports than most. I don't stir shit up, I speak my mind, put it on paper and I try to start discussions to see what the community wants.
Your post saying "You're lucky I responded or lucky to call you out" had elitism written all over it. So please don't say that you didn't post as a pro because it had "i'm better than you" implied.
On July 08 2011 06:20 desrow wrote: Here's what the OP PM'd me My reponse: When I post in the teamliquid forums I don't post as a pro-gamer. I post as a citizen of the starcraft 2 community. Your article is all about stirring shit up and creating fake drama. we need people like idra what we dont need is has been writers who are looking for glory
His PM
Original Message From mki: I'm not going to bring this into a public forum war but you made me chuckle:
He's quoting my post 1 page back Just consider yourself lucky that I cared enough to call you out. Your article is just a notch higher than "this article is crap i won't even bother post a comment".
I could just as easily say --- your play is just a notch higher that I noticed it a little bit. But the fact of the matter is. I couldn't give a rats ass that you responded to my article. You're not THAT amazing of a player. Just better than most but not as good as the vast majority of pro's.
mki should be fined there for saying "rats ass" and BMing
Good thing it was in private and only posted publicly by someone else. Otherwise I'd have a hefty fine on my head.
This is one of the ways in which sports differentiate between e-sports.
e-sports will always be a niche market just like wrestling (a comparison that has been made several times). You are beating a dead horse. You want Fnatic to make an example out of SK, when Fnatic already dealt under the table before.
As for your comments regarding IdrA's BM and his fans arguing he does it for a 'mental advantage.' That's absurb, especially given the example you provided i.e. the Huk SS. You can argue HuK put IdrA on tilt. Not the other way around. IdrA rages and always has. If he had it his way he would win every single game he played. The guy ALWAYS builds himself up before playing. That's outside of the game though and a different beast.
He will always talk the talk, but his nerves still get to him ingame, which allows him to make terrible decisions and hence we get the inflammatory comments. Heat of the moment so to speak. The only mental advantage the guy has is he's been down every road before and has a lot of experience. Not the fact he makes ridiculous comments sometimes.
On July 08 2011 00:36 Stiluz wrote: I despise actions of trying to excert your own sense of "morality" (e.g. profanity) on others and try to call if professionalism. I want the players to be themselves and I don't care for people forcing this form of "professionalism". A sport or competition can be professional while at the same time maintaining some real humanity and emotions, just look football (european football that is). The bickering between Wenger and Dalgish (sp?) included a lot of profanity. I guess the limit is when the players direct insults at the audience (Rooney swearing at the camera, though it was later explained he was just pissed at the camera guy). Personally, I don't want to see the SC2 scene be devoid of emotions and if things like the BM between Huk and Idra is how they show their emotions for example, that's a great thing.
Profanity should not be excepted in any kind of professional conversation or public setting. That is my morality, but it also many other peoples. If there is a chance to alienate and offend someone in a public or professional setting you should not do that thing.
Can't please everyone, so the best course of action is to attract the small group that nitpicks everything. Good thinking.
On July 08 2011 06:20 desrow wrote: Here's what the OP PM'd me My reponse: When I post in the teamliquid forums I don't post as a pro-gamer. I post as a citizen of the starcraft 2 community. Your article is all about stirring shit up and creating fake drama. we need people like idra what we dont need is has been writers who are looking for glory
Original Message From mki: I'm not going to bring this into a public forum war but you made me chuckle:
He's quoting my post 1 page back Just consider yourself lucky that I cared enough to call you out. Your article is just a notch higher than "this article is crap i won't even bother post a comment".
I could just as easily say --- your play is just a notch higher that I noticed it a little bit. But the fact of the matter is. I couldn't give a rats ass that you responded to my article. You're not THAT amazing of a player. Just better than most but not as good as the vast majority of pro's.
On July 08 2011 06:20 desrow wrote: Here's what the OP PM'd me My reponse: When I post in the teamliquid forums I don't post as a pro-gamer. I post as a citizen of the starcraft 2 community. Your article is all about stirring shit up and creating fake drama. we need people like idra what we dont need is has been writers who are looking for glory
Original Message From mki: I'm not going to bring this into a public forum war but you made me chuckle:
He's quoting my post 1 page back Just consider yourself lucky that I cared enough to call you out. Your article is just a notch higher than "this article is crap i won't even bother post a comment".
I could just as easily say --- your play is just a notch higher that I noticed it a little bit. But the fact of the matter is. I couldn't give a rats ass that you responded to my article. You're not THAT amazing of a player. Just better than most but not as good as the vast majority of pro's.
It's a PM, why are you bringing it up in the thread...
On July 08 2011 06:27 mki wrote: I don't stir shit up, I speak my mind, put it on paper and I try to start discussions to see what the community wants.
That wasn't in private and you used profanity, should you be fined for that too? No, because no one cares if people cuss or not publicly. As I stated in an earlier post, as long as it's not excessive, no one will think twice about it.
On July 08 2011 06:27 mki wrote: I don't stir shit up, I speak my mind, put it on paper and I try to start discussions to see what the community wants.
That wasn't in private and you used profanity, should you be fined for that too? No, because no one cares if people cuss or not publicly. As I stated in an earlier post, as long as it's not excessive, no one will think twice about it.
I didn't A) do it in a public event B) I'm not a pro player to be looked up to.
Stop using me as an example - I am in no way a professional player competing in MLG events and other events around the world that tens of thousands of people watch.
This always has to do with the maturity of the audience as well. If things like swearing in the game that is casted on the main stage and is viewed by thousands of people doesn't get addressed in any way and the significant part of the viewership takes it just fine, than it has to do about us as well.
This prooves that we are either haven't grown up enough to understand what is fine to do and what is not or we are just plain dumb and deserve what the rest of the world thinks about us.
Also i'd recommened everyone who thinks that the only way to "intercat outside of thr game" is to curse each other - check out BW korean scene, which looks much more professional when it comes to both: the quality of the games and player's behaviour and despite that having a ton of developed story lines, fun celebrations and entertaining shows.
P.S. I really hope IEM will take measures if such kind of supidity occurs during that event
Well for me it was a worthwhile discussion even though a lot of people got way to heated about it. It's great to see such passion. The majority of posters (so far as I can see) like BM. So what can I say... Of course my opinion will be different however I respect the opinion of 17 pages of TL'ers. Night TL.net
aside from all the pretentiousness in saying the OP is wrong for even posting what i thought was a fine approach to suggesting ways of keeping the BM out of professional E-sports.
i mean seriously, all you who are defending BM.. just look at the words BAD MANNERED = i dont want that = im going to take less interest and take less seriously
PROFESSIONAL = being at the apex of skill and competition while maintaining bearing
i mean.. cmon.. kids stop saying 'fuck off' and 'fuck you faggot' if you want i really dont care, because thats all it does, is makes you look like an angry 12 year old kid with an advanced expletive vocabulary.. grats on learning those swear words little jonny
but in PROFESSIONAL e-sports i expect to see professionals acting professional.. they are the example of how to act and where to go in gaming, so do we really want them teaching "FUCK OFF" when they do bad?
(shh or simply a lack of response is a great way to deny chatting in game... not matter how much you want them to fuck off -- if huk was wrong so be it, idra didnt need to jump in the boat with him)
On July 08 2011 06:39 mki wrote: Well for me it was a worthwhile discussion even though a lot of people got way to heated about it. It's great to see such passion. The majority of posters (so far as I can see) like BM. So what can I say... Of course my opinion will be different however I respect the opinion of 17 pages of TL'ers. Night TL.net
i think its just that many ppl like to use mediums like the internet to essentially argue and deny anyone elses point of view , no matter the logic
I once started a thread about what players are doing at the 6m mark, to which many replied, "the 6m mark doesnt exist you newb" essentially .. lol
I am fine with a lot of things that spice up a match and add a certain flair to it, like rivalries and the likes. I am also totally fine with ceremonies and celebration gestures and with provocative interviews.
But I think that there are still certain lines that shouln't be crossed, if things get too personal for instance, if they happen frequently or if they humilate an opponent outside of the context of the game.
Other than that, I think it is good that the OP has brought up this discussion, since it might help the organizers of leagues to decide where "BM" starts and when it should be fined and what is accepted by the gaming community.
I for example think that racist comments should lead to a severe punishment.
On July 08 2011 06:20 desrow wrote: Here's what the OP PM'd me My reponse: When I post in the teamliquid forums I don't post as a pro-gamer. I post as a citizen of the starcraft 2 community. Your article is all about stirring shit up and creating fake drama. we need people like idra what we dont need is has been writers who are looking for glory
Original Message From mki: I'm not going to bring this into a public forum war but you made me chuckle:
He's quoting my post 1 page back Just consider yourself lucky that I cared enough to call you out. Your article is just a notch higher than "this article is crap i won't even bother post a comment".
I could just as easily say --- your play is just a notch higher that I noticed it a little bit. But the fact of the matter is. I couldn't give a rats ass that you responded to my article. You're not THAT amazing of a player. Just better than most but not as good as the vast majority of pro's.
What a douche bag hahaha. Its pretty funny how he complains about BM and is now bm'ing people in the thread! I think hes trolling us guys :>
On July 08 2011 00:29 rackdude wrote: Then it's gonna be like the NFL and you'll get fined for dancing...
The NFL is the only example where this rule goes overboard. The rest of the leagues do fine. Look at soccer. Players have extensive celebrations and so what. They only get fined when they really do something dumb like pretend to snort cocaine on the sideline...
To the comment right above. That's the point - it's my opinion. Whether they make use of it or not is up to them. I'm not going to be two-sided about an opinion......
actually soccer is pretty bad too i remember Messi getting fined for showing words written on his undershirt during a celebration...dedicated to his mother (or someone close)
On July 08 2011 06:20 desrow wrote: Here's what the OP PM'd me My reponse: When I post in the teamliquid forums I don't post as a pro-gamer. I post as a citizen of the starcraft 2 community. Your article is all about stirring shit up and creating fake drama. we need people like idra what we dont need is has been writers who are looking for glory
His PM
Original Message From mki: I'm not going to bring this into a public forum war but you made me chuckle:
He's quoting my post 1 page back Just consider yourself lucky that I cared enough to call you out. Your article is just a notch higher than "this article is crap i won't even bother post a comment".
I could just as easily say --- your play is just a notch higher that I noticed it a little bit. But the fact of the matter is. I couldn't give a rats ass that you responded to my article. You're not THAT amazing of a player. Just better than most but not as good as the vast majority of pro's.
What a douche bag hahaha. Its pretty funny how he complains about BM and is now bm'ing people in the thread! I think hes trolling us guys :>
i kinda felt it was more douchey to respond just to tell someone their article is trash.. i mean isnt THAT bm? aside from the 'he started it argument' .. you should really avoid PM'ing ppl you dont want to have a legit conversation with lol -
For those of you who work, would you start cursing during an important meeting, or while talking to your clients?
A lot of people seem to think that we can't view good games unless we can still see their personalities. That seems fine, and is even great, but if a gamer's personality consists of cursing, what personality do they really have to offer?
There should be a poll in the OP: People who agree with you and people who disagree. I'd be curious to see if there are many people here who would actually want to see BM disappear.
On July 08 2011 00:29 rackdude wrote: Then it's gonna be like the NFL and you'll get fined for dancing...
The NFL is the only example where this rule goes overboard. The rest of the leagues do fine. Look at soccer. Players have extensive celebrations and so what. They only get fined when they really do something dumb like pretend to snort cocaine on the sideline...
To the comment right above. That's the point - it's my opinion. Whether they make use of it or not is up to them. I'm not going to be two-sided about an opinion......
actually soccer is pretty bad too i remember Messi getting fined for showing words written on his undershirt during a celebration...dedicated to his mother (or someone close)
That was not really about BM. More about silly football rules and sponsors
On July 08 2011 05:28 mki wrote: You guys are giving a ton of examples where BM happens in other sports. However the point is - all those sports look down upon that - we're the only one that encourages it. So don't say that BM is good because they do it in traditional sports.
Everyone trash talks, most analysts actually think it's entertaining until someone call's someone else a fag or something and offends a group of people and they all have to be PC about it. Refs dont really care if people trash talk as long as they dont do it to them for example. It's irrelevant and doesn't have much to do with why esports will succeed or fail imo.
On July 08 2011 06:27 mki wrote: The whole point of PMing you wasn't to bring it into a public forum war. I'm glad that you're so noble as to post as a citizen of the entire SC2 community and not as a pro. I'm not a writer looking for glory - I'm an editor who is looking to get my opinion known and start a discussion. I accomplished that.
You don't know me at all - don't go out saying I'm looking to create fake drama. I've worked at many top organizations and I'm sure that most if not all will vouch for me that I love and am more passionate about e-sports than most. I don't stir shit up, I speak my mind, put it on paper and I try to start discussions to see what the community wants.
Your post saying "You're lucky I responded or lucky to call you out" had elitism written all over it. So please don't say that you didn't post as a pro because it had "i'm better than you" implied.
oh come on man, you bothered replying to.. desrow? desrow is a nobody who thinks he's a proffesional player. I have tried to watch his stream multiple times and all i see and hear is a whiny untalented player who complains about lag, often ragequits and is also extremely disrespectful to his viewers. honestly, i dont know why his stream is even 'featured' and why someone would sit and watch this mess for more than 5 minutes. plus, we all know kids, that revealing personal conversations is always a sign of maturity and professionalism. not.
on topic: finally!! a guy who speaks the truth. what you people seem to not understand is that this opinion isnt claiming that idra's behaviour is bad for esports as it is (hell its even funny seeing him ragequitting like a 12yo all the time and all the brainwashed zerg minions in these forums going: ''well clearly idra is a genius of epic proportions, he is so experienced that he knows he cant possibly win that game so he leaves''. someday maybe they'll figure out that he's just a sore loser but thats another topic). Idra's behaviour is bad if you want e-sports to go M A I N S T R E A M. Big corporations will never support e-sports imo when they see a guy like idra have fans - they will just refuse to see this community from a serious perspective.
Your suggestion that teams and other organizations should go straight to court when they have a problem is kind of silly. We all know that lawsuits take a very long time to go to trial, are very expensive, and 9 times out of 10 result in settlement anyway. Not to mention the bad blood and scare tactics that they entail. You propose an extreme and highly impractical solution to the stated problem of the lack of professionalism in esports. I think you should be a little more reasonable.
where BM is okay with me (1) outside the game (2) right at the start of the game because both heat the atmosphere up immensely and makes the game more enjoyable, since people know how much pride is on the line.
where BM is not okay (1) during the game (2) at the end of the game because (1) play the game, don't distract with unimportant stuff (2) either you are winning, then you are kicking at somebody who's already on the floor or you are losing and then you are just flaming because of your own incompetence.
On July 08 2011 00:29 enecateReAP wrote: I think you're being very bias in this.
You say that the decision is up to MLG yet you say we MUST crack down on it? You're not giving MLG or ESL the decision, you're TELLING THEM what they're 'supposed' to do.
That's how an essay is written... You state something as a fact (though it must be debatable, obviously), give evidence, and explain why it's important to go with your side.
My biggest issue with the article outside of the fact that you tried to mesh two different topics that don't have anything to do with each other(which i believe was brought up) is the comparison to esports vs traditional sports.
The key is that 100years ago when the "traditional" sports(nfl,nhl,mlb,nba etc) were in their infancy people(fans) were different. There was no twitter, tmz or social media blasting the "traditional" sports legends acting a fool. The bottom line is now days when someone goes on tilt there is damn sure some film or video of it. The sad thing is the same things would happen back in the day but people weren't bloodthirsty for it.
I'm one of those people who don't really care about trivial things like name calling, BM whatever. There's too many real problems in this world to waste time with silly things like that. However, some people just plain don't like it and to each his own I guess.
For me though, because I wouldn't care about it happening in any other sport I certainly don't care if it happens in Starcraft2. If anything it adds to the entertainment. Whether you're pro or anti BM you can't deny that and that's why I watch SC2 in the first place, entertainment.
I've never been a big fan of censorship no matter what form it takes. I want truth not good manners.
On July 08 2011 07:23 Doodsmack wrote: Your suggestion that teams and other organizations should go straight to court when they have a problem is kind of silly. We all know that lawsuits take a very long time to go to trial, are very expensive, and 9 times out of 10 result in settlement anyway. Not to mention the bad blood and scare tactics that they entail. You propose an extreme and highly impractical solution to the stated problem of the lack of professionalism in esports. I think you should be a little more reasonable.
He did not say that should be the absolute first response; he said that this must be an option and in the case of SK and Fnatic may be the only remaining solution. If the money involved in esports and particularly player contracts increase as they probably will then legal avenues must be considered in all cases. It's simply logical and there really is nothing to argue about. The OP is talking about taking a hard line against actions that bring the league, player or sponsors into disrepute. Court should be the very last FINAL option, but it should be an option.
On July 08 2011 07:15 aFF.TEEN wrote: Reading stuff like this makes me lose faith in humanity. Professsionalism is a bullshit concept.
What have you proven with your post? Maybe add a 'why' or a 'how' or even just more than your one liner that you pressed the enter key in between to make it sort of look like a decent post. How is professionalism a bullshit concept!? Maybe in a world where we all sit in our basements rocking out for 12 hours playing LoL - sure then professionalism is total bs. But how about when there are sponsors involved? Or leagues trying to obtain extra funding? There are mainstream sponsors that will not associate themselves with negative activity.
There are usually two points of view - those who feel that this is esports, we are unique and deal with it - and then there is the "if we want to go mainstream we have to shape up." Luckily there is a happy medium; there are ways to be "BM" without being a complete dick; i.e. MMA's ceremony at MLG was not overtly rude but merely a crowd pleasing taunt.
There is always a "bad boy" in any sport; so i don't particularly care, but it's when that behaviour becomes allowable and is then reproduced by other players that it becomes a problem. If you break the rules, you suffer the consequences. And all the examples of swearing or BM in other sports is pretty hilarious; congratulations - you proved that they have happened - but none of those situations actually cast that sport in a positive light?
On July 08 2011 00:29 enecateReAP wrote: I think you're being very bias in this.
You say that the decision is up to MLG yet you say we MUST crack down on it? You're not giving MLG or ESL the decision, you're TELLING THEM what they're 'supposed' to do.
That's how an essay is written... You state something as a fact (though it must be debatable, obviously), give evidence, and explain why it's important to go with your side.
I feel like he missed some key steps in the process. It was essentially the usual argument that's starting to get annoying. Real sports do it, eSports should do it too.
I like the personalities within Starcraft, situations like the ones mentioned in the OP are rare and add to the some story and emotion to events. If players were dropping F-bombs and trash talking each other in most of their games, it would become problematic, but as of now, it's a non-issue in my opinion.
Why should we crack down on this? I'm still missing this key component.
Hi, I signed up just to tell you that I disagree. There is no major governing body for Starcraft like there is for basketball and football (NBA and NFL) if individual tournaments started imposing these silly rules they would only be hurting themselves. Quite frankly, I love the raw emotion of the players, like MMA and MC taunting IdrA. It's what makes it so enjoyable for me.
On July 08 2011 07:23 Doodsmack wrote: Your suggestion that teams and other organizations should go straight to court when they have a problem is kind of silly. We all know that lawsuits take a very long time to go to trial, are very expensive, and 9 times out of 10 result in settlement anyway. Not to mention the bad blood and scare tactics that they entail. You propose an extreme and highly impractical solution to the stated problem of the lack of professionalism in esports. I think you should be a little more reasonable.
He did not say that should be the absolute first response; he said that this must be an option and in the case of SK and Fnatic may be the only remaining solution. If the money involved in esports and particularly player contracts increase as they probably will then legal avenues must be considered in all cases. It's simply logical and there really is nothing to argue about. The OP is talking about taking a hard line against actions that bring the league, player or sponsors into disrepute. Court should be the very last FINAL option, but it should be an option.
On July 08 2011 07:15 aFF.TEEN wrote: Reading stuff like this makes me lose faith in humanity. Professsionalism is a bullshit concept.
What have you proven with your post? Maybe add a 'why' or a 'how' or even just more than your one liner that you pressed the enter key in between to make it sort of look like a decent post. How is professionalism a bullshit concept!? Maybe in a world where we all sit in our basements rocking out for 12 hours playing LoL - sure then professionalism is total bs. But how about when there are sponsors involved? Or leagues trying to obtain extra funding? There are mainstream sponsors that will not associate themselves with negative activity.
There are usually two points of view - those who feel that this is esports, we are unique and deal with it - and then there is the "if we want to go mainstream we have to shape up." Luckily there is a happy medium; there are ways to be "BM" without being a complete dick; i.e. MMA's ceremony at MLG was not overtly rude but merely a crowd pleasing taunt.
There is always a "bad boy" in any sport; so i don't particularly care, but it's when that behaviour becomes allowable and is then reproduced by other players that it becomes a problem. If you break the rules, you suffer the consequences. And all the examples of swearing or BM in other sports is pretty hilarious; congratulations - you proved that they have happened - but none of those situations actually cast that sport in a positive light?
cant agree with this more. i like to see ceremonies, i want to hear players honest opinions of other players even when their very negative but i dont want to hear simple "fuck you"s it degrades the competition.
that said i sware alot, every day. but i know when to not sware in front of my family in public or when im doing work or in other scenarios when adults should know not to. when someone represents themselves only you can do whatever, when you represent other people you should not make them look bad.
Think about it this way... In RL sports, there is still a fair share of trash talk, and what we would call "BM", but that hasn't stopped the industries from becoming exceedingly successful. In fact, there are moments where these acts actually bring in more viewers (ie. fights in hockey, dirty play in soccer) I don't think there is a huge problem in terms of "disrespect" and "BM" in sc2, and e-sports in general. It is the player's decision as to how to act, and their responsibility to take whatever consequence ensues.
On July 08 2011 07:31 TheGreenBee wrote: I want real emotions, real personalities, and real interview answers from pro players, not some $$ forced PC bullshit.
you don't get it, do you? real personalities that attract the crowds and bring tons of entairtenment to the scene are those of the koreans for example (watch MC). Idra's is real as well but at the same time highly immature - it's just something that is plain negative, it has no positive side to it at all. would you pay to watch a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormons? I wouldn't. I would pay however to watch MC's entertaining ceremonies.
Anything that scares sponsors away from ESPORTS can be seen as hurting ESPORTS as a whole. If a sponsor gives a team money, only to have said team's star player randomly up and leave with little to no consequence, I can totally understand that company never investing in ESPORTS again. Other companies would probably be dubious about the prospect as well.
Then the article just jumps in to BM. They point out that it's not allowed in traditional sports, but they fail to provide any reasons. I'm no expert, but the two main reasons I can think of for traditional sports don't seem to apply to ESPORTS.
-It's not illegal to tell someone to go suck a bag of dicks. It is however very illegal to broadcast someone talking about a bag of dicks live on national television. That's a big part of why traditional sports have such hefty fines regarding player language, because their broadcasting partners get slammed with fines from the government at the slightest slip-up. Or nip slip. Or whatever. When SC2 is on prime time TV, maybe we can start talking about this seriously.
-Traditional sports involve highly athletic people (read: testosterone) and tend to include physical contact, some of which is painful. If some guy who's fouled you repeatedly and gotten away with it decides to pelvic thrust in your direction after scoring, it's not that unexpected for him to get punched in the face. In ESPORTS, the testosterone levels are lower, and players often aren't even in the same country as each other. The chance of BM turning into physical violence are almost zero. I'm sure it's happened, but I've certainly never heard about it at a tournament.
I'm ok with people BMing. I'll think less of them for it, and sponsors may look elsewhere, but if they want to do it I don't see any reason to censor them. Also, tournaments would be stupid to try to cut down on drama, drama is the most talked about part of any LAN.
On July 08 2011 07:31 TheGreenBee wrote: I want real emotions, real personalities, and real interview answers from pro players, not some $$ forced PC bullshit.
you don't get it, do you? real personalities that attract the crowds and bring tons of entairtenment to the scene are those of the koreans for example (watch MC). Idra's is real as well but at the same time highly immature - it's just something that is plain negative, it has no positive side to it at all. would you pay to watch a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormons? I wouldn't. I would pay however to watch MC's entertaining ceremonies.
So what are we arguing about? I don't see a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormones, where do we need to crack down?
One guy said, "Fuck off" and now the world is imploding? Just say, "Please don't do that." and if you have to keep warning him, then consider penalizing him. You say it's a plain negative, yet this guy has one of the largest fan followings in Starcraft 2 right now(granted, his fans can be pretty obnoxious).
So, give the players a warning, like they do now, and go on with your day, people aren't spewing cuss words and slurs all day long, it's not taking away from the competition or the sport.
On July 08 2011 07:31 TheGreenBee wrote: I want real emotions, real personalities, and real interview answers from pro players, not some $$ forced PC bullshit.
you don't get it, do you? real personalities that attract the crowds and bring tons of entairtenment to the scene are those of the koreans for example (watch MC). Idra's is real as well but at the same time highly immature - it's just something that is plain negative, it has no positive side to it at all. would you pay to watch a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormons? I wouldn't. I would pay however to watch MC's entertaining ceremonies.
Most people found MC's ceremony to be highly cheesy and dumb, if you read the LR thread.
You don't go up to a competitor in a public setting (idra was sitting in the crowd with his girlfriend) and taunt them, and expect "MANNERZ" back.
no, IdrA should have just ignored HuK speaking. saying fuck off is supremely idiotic and unprofessional. If IdrA wants to bm on ladder or his stream, good for his 'jackass' persona. But don't bring that shit to TL, MLG, TSL etc.
and people keep comparing IdrA to MC, the difference between them is simple MC says "He's good/great, but i'm better" IdrA says "he's trash, its gonna be a walkover win" and then proceeds to get destroyed (yay cruncher)
On July 08 2011 07:31 TheGreenBee wrote: I want real emotions, real personalities, and real interview answers from pro players, not some $$ forced PC bullshit.
you don't get it, do you? real personalities that attract the crowds and bring tons of entairtenment to the scene are those of the koreans for example (watch MC). Idra's is real as well but at the same time highly immature - it's just something that is plain negative, it has no positive side to it at all. would you pay to watch a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormons? I wouldn't. I would pay however to watch MC's entertaining ceremonies.
.... egging someone on when you know they'll have a "fiery" response is entertaining? sure sure. it's still called provoking.
also they are "friendly" with each other apparently from one of the fan club messages somewhere that I read (idra just goes along with it, MC just does all those ceremonies (although BM) for the fans.)
On July 08 2011 07:31 TheGreenBee wrote: I want real emotions, real personalities, and real interview answers from pro players, not some $$ forced PC bullshit.
you don't get it, do you? real personalities that attract the crowds and bring tons of entairtenment to the scene are those of the koreans for example (watch MC). Idra's is real as well but at the same time highly immature - it's just something that is plain negative, it has no positive side to it at all. would you pay to watch a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormons? I wouldn't. I would pay however to watch MC's entertaining ceremonies.
You'd pay to watch someone they just beat, stand in front of them waving their thumps up and down repeatedly and you'd call it entertaining? Watching MC do that stupid ceremony, desperately waiting for IdrA to look at him was one of the most juvenile and immature things I've ever seen.
On July 08 2011 07:31 TheGreenBee wrote: I want real emotions, real personalities, and real interview answers from pro players, not some $$ forced PC bullshit.
you don't get it, do you? real personalities that attract the crowds and bring tons of entairtenment to the scene are those of the koreans for example (watch MC). Idra's is real as well but at the same time highly immature - it's just something that is plain negative, it has no positive side to it at all. would you pay to watch a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormons? I wouldn't. I would pay however to watch MC's entertaining ceremonies.
MC's ceremonies are real? kidding me right? they remind me of WWE and how much of a joke those people are.
Again.. I want real emotions, personalities, and answers! Good or Bad! no staged crap like MC! or PC stuff.
This whole subject is moot. The question of whether they punish certain behavior is in the discretion of teams or the competitive organizations. If they deem it to be in their interest to punish people for being rude of whatever, they'll do it.
I don't understand the point of writing yet another "X is bad for ESPORTS" thread. It doesn't concern anybody other than the organizations.
On July 08 2011 00:34 RipxDark wrote: Everyone knows that the NFL is a joke when it comes to fining people. Even they can a flag or a penalty for spiking the baller or celebrating with more than just yourself. MMA should be fined for doing a kamehameha after winning or fine MC for doing the throat slit. We don't want to go down that path
WHy does everyone only compare NFL, the ONLY league where this does not work as well.
Because you brought it up to prove your point, and ignored the fact that in virtually every major professional team league (including the NFL) players are constantly swearing, it's just that the people behind the cameras know this and make an active effort (i.e., not showing the faces of angry players) to make sure it's not broadcast on air?
I agree that BM'ing is unprofessional and if we are trying to put up a professional look we need to have higher standards or maturity (to show that we are adults and not 13 years olds) but IMO I think it should not necessarily be a league standard (though if they decided to they need to make that clear) but more so on the sponsor side of things. If a sponsor does not want to be associated with childish behavior they need to make that clear to the team they are sponsoring as they are seen as a extension/representation of the company.
In the end I think it would be better for ESPORTS growth to be more professional but I also see the point of staying true to character (within the realms of being mature adults) so I say leave it to the sponsors.
On July 08 2011 00:34 RipxDark wrote: Everyone knows that the NFL is a joke when it comes to fining people. Even they can a flag or a penalty for spiking the baller or celebrating with more than just yourself. MMA should be fined for doing a kamehameha after winning or fine MC for doing the throat slit. We don't want to go down that path
WHy does everyone only compare NFL, the ONLY league where this does not work as well.
Because you brought it up to prove your point, and ignored the fact that in virtually every major professional team league (including the NFL) players are constantly swearing, it's just that the people behind the cameras know this and make an active effort (i.e., not showing the faces of angry players) to make sure it's not broadcast on air?
I honestly do not understand what this proves!? There is no point in proving THAT IT HAPPENS because obviously it does.
But how on earth is this possibly a good thing for this players reputation, or any sponsors associated with him? It quite simply isn't. So yes - swearing happens in other sports but it is certainly not a positive thing
On July 08 2011 00:36 Stiluz wrote: I despise actions of trying to excert your own sense of "morality" (e.g. profanity) on others and try to call if professionalism. I want the players to be themselves and I don't care for people forcing this form of "professionalism". A sport or competition can be professional while at the same time maintaining some real humanity and emotions, just look football (european football that is). The bickering between Wenger and Dalgish (sp?) included a lot of profanity. I guess the limit is when the players direct insults at the audience (Rooney swearing at the camera, though it was later explained he was just pissed at the camera guy). Personally, I don't want to see the SC2 scene be devoid of emotions and if things like the BM between Huk and Idra is how they show their emotions for example, that's a great thing.
This!
I didn't mind when I saw a post that asked for profanity filters in the streams because everyone should be able to choose whatever they want to watch but giving pro's a fine for cussing?
IdrA and HuK are destroying ESPORTS from the inside out! This explains why they have so few fans, and why no one would ever tune in to a game for the sole reason that one of them is playing in it. I knew it all along.
On July 08 2011 00:34 RipxDark wrote: Everyone knows that the NFL is a joke when it comes to fining people. Even they can a flag or a penalty for spiking the baller or celebrating with more than just yourself. MMA should be fined for doing a kamehameha after winning or fine MC for doing the throat slit. We don't want to go down that path
WHy does everyone only compare NFL, the ONLY league where this does not work as well.
Because you brought it up to prove your point, and ignored the fact that in virtually every major professional team league (including the NFL) players are constantly swearing, it's just that the people behind the cameras know this and make an active effort (i.e., not showing the faces of angry players) to make sure it's not broadcast on air?
I honestly do not understand what this proves!? There is no point in proving THAT IT HAPPENS because obviously it does.
But how on earth is this possibly a good thing for this players reputation, or any sponsors associated with him? It quite simply isn't. So yes - swearing happens in other sports but it is certainly not a positive thing
Why does a player's reputation matter to you? If someone wants to ruin their reputation, let him. If he starts to push away fans / gets kicked off of teams / stop gettings sponsors, then too bad for him. It's his power to exercise.. and what he makes of it
On July 08 2011 00:34 RipxDark wrote: Everyone knows that the NFL is a joke when it comes to fining people. Even they can a flag or a penalty for spiking the baller or celebrating with more than just yourself. MMA should be fined for doing a kamehameha after winning or fine MC for doing the throat slit. We don't want to go down that path
WHy does everyone only compare NFL, the ONLY league where this does not work as well.
Because you brought it up to prove your point, and ignored the fact that in virtually every major professional team league (including the NFL) players are constantly swearing, it's just that the people behind the cameras know this and make an active effort (i.e., not showing the faces of angry players) to make sure it's not broadcast on air?
I honestly do not understand what this proves!? There is no point in proving THAT IT HAPPENS because obviously it does.
But how on earth is this possibly a good thing for this players reputation, or any sponsors associated with him? It quite simply isn't. So yes - swearing happens in other sports but it is certainly not a positive thing
The onus is on you to prove that it's detrimental.
I used to be of the opinion that unprofessional attitudes such as Idra's were not a good thing. However, I can't help but look at how things actually turn out. Sure, it is true that if all pro-gamers acted like Idra, most would do it really distastefully and it would just be a big pile of shit.
However, that is simply not how things have turned out. We have a lot of very professionally done events. These events have massive turn outs (MLG, Dreamhack, etc). There are a lot of really mannered and nice players, and there are also a few who are not so much.
We can theorize "if this" "if that" all we want, but what we have right now is very good. There is a lot of interest and excitement brought to the games from these personalities, and there are not too many of them. I agree that if there were too many, it would be shitty. But there aren't. We are doing just fine, and the professional SC2 scene is continuing to grow.
It's funny hearing forum-goers saying "Huk shouldn't come to the events" or "These Pros shouldn't participate b/c of BM". LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL It's like the critics of Kobe Bryant saying he shouldn't play basketball anymore because he talks smack.
You are trying to turn Starcraft 2 Into the NFL. One of the reasons I play and love Starcraft 2, Is because like other sports it takes hours on end of practice, but at its heart it is still a care free and laid back game to play. If you take all the fun out of Esports by throwing fines on everything that players do you will see a drastic decline in players. This Sport is still growing and needs people like Idra. The reason being if you don't draw an emotional reaction from people the community and its' players will stagnate and grow tired of the same old stuff. One thing Idra does extremely well is to draw emotions out of people, If its not, "Dude!! your never gonna guess what Idra did to bm this kid after his all in cheese!!!! , its 'Dude would that kid just shut up!!! I mean he QQ's about everything!!" For prof of this why don't you look at how many stream viewers he has on any given day. He is rarely if ever second to people who even stream on a daily basis like Destiny. For this I salute Idra, Thanks for keeping it fresh and real in the Sc2 Community man! Don't get me wrong, I want to see Esports become huge just like the rest of you, but lets not forget where we come from it should always be about the fun.
The best part about tournaments are the storylines (imo). Storylines most often originate in some sort of drama or BM, like for example HuK/IdrA at MLG etc, makes the tournament so much more interesting. If it were just a lot of pro players meeting up and being completely friendly and no conflict or "storyline" arises, the Tourney is generally less entertaining for the viewers, like it or not.
Would TSL3 be nearly as entertaining if it didn't have the epic storyline of Thorzain, a complete underdog, taking on every top player in NA/EU (+ MC & FD, think those were the only koreans he played?)? No.
Would the last game of IdrA vs CrunCher be nearly as interesting if it was just Cruncher sixgating and IdrA typing out gg? Not at all.
Although I do to some extent agree that saying fuck off etc in chat shouldn't go ENTIRELY unpunished, that's not how it goes in other sports at least. I don't follow football much, but I heard something about Wayne rooney saying something nasty to the camera and getting banned for a few months from some league (yay, i'm great at football T_T).
Oh well, at least BM is punished on the TL forums. IdrA, anyone?
On July 08 2011 06:06 turdburgler wrote: article is 1 sided and takes stuff out of context
pretty bm if you ask me
Yes. I think it should be banned. It cannot remain this way, it is bad for e-sports. People who write such articles should be fined. I believe bad manner of this kind should be punished harshly, it needs to be eradicated, like any other kind of BM. Oh wait..
On July 08 2011 07:31 TheGreenBee wrote: I want real emotions, real personalities, and real interview answers from pro players, not some $$ forced PC bullshit.
you don't get it, do you? real personalities that attract the crowds and bring tons of entairtenment to the scene are those of the koreans for example (watch MC). Idra's is real as well but at the same time highly immature - it's just something that is plain negative, it has no positive side to it at all. would you pay to watch a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormons? I wouldn't. I would pay however to watch MC's entertaining ceremonies.
So what are we arguing about? I don't see a bunch of teenagers fighting over nothing due to their excessive hormones, where do we need to crack down?
One guy said, "Fuck off" and now the world is imploding? Just say, "Please don't do that." and if you have to keep warning him, then consider penalizing him. You say it's a plain negative, yet this guy has one of the largest fan followings in Starcraft 2 right now(granted, his fans can be pretty obnoxious).
So, give the players a warning, like they do now, and go on with your day, people aren't spewing cuss words and slurs all day long, it's not taking away from the competition or the sport.
who said the world is imploding? im just stating my opinion as everyone else does - that's the purpose of these forums. the fact though that idra has a large fan following makes me really really sad - especially when you think that the only reason for that is that he's carrying their zerg tears to exposure.
On July 08 2011 07:58 SafeAsCheese wrote:
Most people found MC's ceremony to be highly cheesy and dumb, if you read the LR thread.
you got to factor in some aspects if you want to be accurate. we all know unfortunately that nationalism sometimes gets in the way in that kind of situations (unjustified so, if you ask me). xenophobic and/or nationalistic people will support 'the american guy' whatever he does/says. also, as others have stated as well, the TL community is pretty zerg heavy so they will ofc protect they messiah when it was clear even to someone who doesn't know who these two people were that idra was severely outclassed because nerves got to him once more making him look like a 15yo. i am not saying he necessarily had to response to MC's taunt. if he found it cheesy or anything he could have just ignored him.
On July 08 2011 07:58 SafeAsCheese wrote:
You don't go up to a competitor in a public setting (idra was sitting in the crowd with his girlfriend) and taunt them, and expect "MANNERZ" back.
oh noes!! what a bad guy MC is!! I didn't expect MANNERS back, you dont get my point! I like BM, it's just that idra has no effing class - he's just plain negative and stupid. in my opinion that is.
On July 08 2011 08:01 zhurai wrote:
.... egging someone on when you know they'll have a "fiery" response is entertaining? sure sure. it's still called provoking.
also they are "friendly" with each other apparently from one of the fan club messages somewhere that I read (idra just goes along with it, MC just does all those ceremonies (although BM) for the fans.)
provoking adds to the drama. which is good. drama and personalities are good. but no one gets entertained by plain negativity. there has to a fun aspect to it imo.
On July 08 2011 08:08 walklightwhat wrote:
You'd pay to watch someone they just beat, stand in front of them waving their thumps up and down repeatedly and you'd call it entertaining? Watching MC do that stupid ceremony, desperately waiting for IdrA to look at him was one of the most juvenile and immature things I've ever seen.
well, the hundreds of people that where there live found it highly entairtening, why wouldn't I? On another note, no one cheered when idra gave him.. 'the finger' (wow didn't see that coming).
also: ''desperately waiting for idrA to look at him'' ... LOL what? could you be any more biased? do you play zerg.. by the way? or maybe you don't like koreans? just saying.. well thank god idra responded highly maturely and saved the whole show at the last minute.
On July 08 2011 08:11 TheGreenBee wrote:
MC's ceremonies are real? kidding me right? they remind me of WWE and how much of a joke those people are.
Again.. I want real emotions, personalities, and answers! Good or Bad! no staged crap like MC! or PC stuff.
I didn't say his ceremony was real, i said his personality is real. just as idra's personality is real. I just find that idra is severely outclassed when it comes to the entertainment value they bring to the audience - and also the level of professionalism with which they approach the (e)sport. I know, i know who gives a flying f**k for professionalism in e-sports. Once more, im talking about the case where we want e-sports to grow mainstream.
On July 08 2011 07:23 Doodsmack wrote: Your suggestion that teams and other organizations should go straight to court when they have a problem is kind of silly. We all know that lawsuits take a very long time to go to trial, are very expensive, and 9 times out of 10 result in settlement anyway. Not to mention the bad blood and scare tactics that they entail. You propose an extreme and highly impractical solution to the stated problem of the lack of professionalism in esports. I think you should be a little more reasonable.
He did not say that should be the absolute first response; he said that this must be an option and in the case of SK and Fnatic may be the only remaining solution. If the money involved in esports and particularly player contracts increase as they probably will then legal avenues must be considered in all cases. It's simply logical and there really is nothing to argue about. The OP is talking about taking a hard line against actions that bring the league, player or sponsors into disrepute. Court should be the very last FINAL option, but it should be an option.
Lets look at the two times the author mentioned lawsuits. First he claimed that there is only one good solution that will end the Delpan issue once and for all - a lawsuit. Does he know exactly what communication has occurred between the two teams, any negotiations they have attempted, etc? Does he know exactly how much money is involved and whether it's financially viable for the organization to go through with a lawsuit? No, because he's an outsider. He is jumping to a conclusion based on incomplete information, under the assumption that lawsuits are "harsh" measures that can end issues like this "once and for all." This suggests that a lawsuit shouldn't just be a last resort, it should be an option kept at the ready any time an issue might be hard to resolve.
Second he says that if a league like MLG fines a player and that player refuses and then a settlement can't be reached, "the situation should go to court immediately." Don't you think players would be wary of competing in MLG if the league started sueing them? Would the fine imposed by MLG be an amount of money worth absorbing the cost of a lawsuit for? Here again the author is making a bold statement without considering all the factors. Frankly it doesn't seem like he knows much about lawsuits. He is suggesting they should be used in situations where they actually would be impractical. He didn't just say that lawsuits "should be an option" as you claim. He suggested that they be actively used in order to make statements.
I think pro gamers should BM all they want on ladder, or in real life or whatever. However, I feel like SC2's audience might be diminished by people cussing each other out in-game during a tournament. It's only going to take a prudish parent seeing that one time to tell their kid they can't watch pro SC2 any more.
I think the poll points to the thought that a lot of people don't want SC2 turning into some police state where some quite enjoyable BM for the viewers causes the players to be fined or DQ'd. Stop trying to change part of what makes SC2 fun.
On July 08 2011 09:13 alexanderzero wrote: I think pro gamers should BM all they want on ladder, or in real life or whatever. However, I feel like SC2's audience might be diminished by people cussing each other out in-game during a tournament. It's only going to take a prudish parent seeing that one time to tell their kid they can't watch pro SC2 any more.
Kids shouldn't be watching, this game is rated T for teen.
I'm so sick and tired of everyone trying to make esports just like the NFL or any other sport out there. This is a video game ladies and gentlemen a video game. We will talk shit we will curse and we will have fun. End of story
On July 08 2011 09:13 alexanderzero wrote: I think pro gamers should BM all they want on ladder, or in real life or whatever. However, I feel like SC2's audience might be diminished by people cussing each other out in-game during a tournament. It's only going to take a prudish parent seeing that one time to tell their kid they can't watch pro SC2 any more.
Kids shouldn't be watching, this game is rated T for teen.
Well, someone could make an all christian league where you hold prayer groups for players and viewers before and/or after each match, I'm sure kids would LOVE that.
Naturally any type of BM or foul language would be outlawed in this league, failing to not follow the guidelines would a result in the player being quickly banished to hell, where he would burn for all eternity for his terrible crimes against humanity.
I think it's ok. I don't really enjoy watching it, but if other people do then it beings in more people, which in the long run is good. As long as it doesn't reach point the people where it's "I only watch SC2 to see what xxxx says", good games and good production should come first
When thats happening in Esports I'll care for regulation, until then cry me a river.
Pretty much.
But there are always fucking control freaks, fucking visionaries who know better than everyone else, those who want to establish fucking rules about everything because they believe it cannot go well without being under strict control - oh and so it happens that their fucking interprations and definitions are so much better than anyone`s else that they can provide the exact rules that shall be used to control what needs to be controled !
And they are so kind, so benevolent, so willing to contribute to the community, that they are even willing to provide these rules and explain how they should be applied, and also why !!! Awesome !!! Thank you ! Thank you ! Thank you ! Thank you !
Oh thank you ! You truly are our saviors ! You deserve recognition, oh the selfless ones, we owe you ! Without people like you we would all be doomed. If not people like you, bad manners would eventually destroy our souls and the community would rot in disrespectful, disastrously harmful expressions ! Now e-sports community at least has a chance !
Who knows, one day you might even lead us to a manifestation of a beautiful, perfectly mannered community where no one dares to ever say anything that might even appear disrespectful, where everyone, no exceptions, will always "gg" after every single game, where no one will ever badmouth about anyone, where everyone will respect the rules at all times, for they are, indeed, perfect and they serve us better than relying on any fallible intelligence, tact, situational discernment, tolerance, understanding or anything of that kind. Then you would be truly able to say that you brought happiness to everyone ! THANK YOU ! God bless you for using your miracolous insight, vision and understanding for the benefit of all !
Personally, I enjoy the quality of games, I enjoy the stories they create by playing, not by talking trash. Players like BoxeR, MooN or Grubby are what can make e-sports great. Great manners, respect for opponents, intelligence and insane SKILL. These are the players that should be graced, not the likes of Idra, who just whines, and to top it off, just loses.
I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
-Examples of paragons of gaming, which should be replicated by every other gaming: Boxer, White-Ra, Moon, Grubby
-Examples of players with showmanship, who make healthy FUN: MC, Keen, Firebathero in BW.
-Examples of players with terrible attitude, who should be fined and shut up: Idra, Lalush.
I actually don't understand why people like this whole "drama" thing so much. Drama is generated by the games, the clash of skill, the great level in gameplay. A "sport" that relies on "drama" to be successful can only be considered amateurish at best, look at WWE for a direct reference.
On July 08 2011 09:13 alexanderzero wrote: I think pro gamers should BM all they want on ladder, or in real life or whatever. However, I feel like SC2's audience might be diminished by people cussing each other out in-game during a tournament. It's only going to take a prudish parent seeing that one time to tell their kid they can't watch pro SC2 any more.
Then their little shit shouldn't be watching SC2 if the parents can handle them hearing some fucking words.
On July 08 2011 08:22 bkrow wrote: I honestly do not understand what this proves!? There is no point in proving THAT IT HAPPENS because obviously it does.
But how on earth is this possibly a good thing for this players reputation, or any sponsors associated with him? It quite simply isn't. So yes - swearing happens in other sports but it is certainly not a positive thing
Neither player was fined.
In the latter case, Charles Barkley went on to do a famous set of 'I am not a role model' commercials for Nike, his largest sponsor.
On July 08 2011 09:13 alexanderzero wrote: I think pro gamers should BM all they want on ladder, or in real life or whatever. However, I feel like SC2's audience might be diminished by people cussing each other out in-game during a tournament. It's only going to take a prudish parent seeing that one time to tell their kid they can't watch pro SC2 any more.
Kids shouldn't be watching, this game is rated T for teen.
Well, someone could make an all christian league where you hold prayer groups for players and viewers before and/or after each match, I'm sure kids would LOVE that.
Naturally any type of BM or foul language would be outlawed in this league, failing to not follow the guidelines would a result in the player being quickly banished to hell, where he would burn for all eternity for his terrible crimes against humanity.
Yes. The community DEFINETELY needs to care most about that kind of parents and audience ! So much so, as to even adjust rules for people who devote their lifes to e-sports, just for them. Yes, for they are the rightful ones, their wisdom shines so brightly, so much so that they even understand the disastrous consequences of situations in which a kid hears a curse word, they also understand what wonders manifest when they manage to protect the kid from a foul language !
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation.
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ?
You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama)
On July 08 2011 00:32 coL.drewbie wrote: players aren't allowed to chat in game, I got in trouble for chatting with HuK at MLG Dallas when we were playing a seeding match and bnet was lagging really hard.
Really? That's stupid. Then HuK should get in trouble for chatting in game. MLG Dallas was so awful though. We had to pause for about 5-7 minutes then 5 or 6 more times after that. When the game resumed, I honestly forgot what was actually going on in the game.
Tiger Woods is the ultimate counter example. His portrayal in the media from 1996 until November 2009 was completely false. Every comment, every interview was crafted and unrealistic. The only real Tiger was the guy playing on the course. Professionalism is complete inhuman shit, the only reason you could possibly justify it is the money. As a fan, no way do I ever want to give up the raw unedited candidness we have now for trite public relation platitudes.
My question is why should the players adjust? This is not TV this is the internet, always one copy and paste from "2girls1cup". We are the highly sought after male 18-35 spectrum, advertisers and media should endulge us, not the other way around. Do you love Tyler's "Stride, if you don't give a shit", comment, I do.
BM is half the reason people watch players like Idra and the old firebathero before he went to Ace and lost his soul ......without bm starcraft wouldn't be starcraft. Yes, Idra typing "fuck off" in the middle of an mlg match with tens of thousands of viewer might be going too far, but that doesn't mean bm is a bad thing. Watching pros do ceremonies, MC bm everybody he plays, and things like the smiley face cruncher typed to Idra in TSL3 makes watching SC2 so much more fun.
If we're going with the NFL connection, Idra is alot like thet Jets, and yes, there are alot of people who hate the Jets, but the Jets and their trash talking doesn't hurt the NFL at all, in fact it helps increase views.
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation.
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ?
You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama)
You both miss the point. MC didn't mean to insult idra. His idea was to ignite the crowd with some sillyness. Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you", considering the context?? Hahahahaha that's just crazy. It's the same reason he high fives the crowd and dances in a chair in the middle of the stage.
Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show. He also gave the finger to HuK in previous MLG's without the slightest provoking. The context makes it an insult.
MC's stunts = Showmanship Idra's gestures = Just bad blood.
It's a HUGE difference. It's like comparing scoring a goal and celebrating by waving your shirt with scoring a goal and celebrating by screaming it in the face of the receiving goalkeeper. The latter is fined and penalized, very harshly in some leagues.
And yeah, I agree Idra gets lots of attention with these things, I just fail to see how that is attractive to anyone except for WWE fans, and I wouldn't like SC2 to go the WWE way, we'll have players setting up scenarios and such things "for the show". That'd be terrible.
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ?
You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama)
Yes ! Another brilliant visionarie ! Thank you, we need personal definitions to be imposed on us, this is enlightening !
Now I finally realize that throat slashing gesture is all right but middle finger is not ! I will no longer have to care about any context, situation, meaning and all that bothersome stuff, for I have YOUR WORD. Throat slashing is fine, middle finger is just wrong and if anyone will ever disagree with me about that, he/she will be wrong, for these are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Your poll is misleading. Just because I think that players shouldn't be fined for what they say doesn't mean I'm "pro" bm, it just means I'm not against it.
In addition to the arguments of the OP (though they might be listed somewhere in the long list of comments, I confess I didn't take the time to read them all), I feel that it must be said that BM, while certainly inciting drama, detracts from esports' chances of becoming mainstream by reinforcing the stereotype of the "angry nerd in his mom's basement."
I personally am ambivalent regarding Idra's behavior, there are both obvious pros and cons. However, For the sake of the growth of esports, I agree with the OP that maturity and professionalism need to be injected into esports so they will meet the expectations of the non-gaming public who will compare them to more mainstream sports.
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation.
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ?
You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama)
You both miss the point. MC didn't mean to insult idra. His idea was to ignite the crowd with some sillyness. Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you", considering the context?? Hahahahaha that's just crazy. It's the same reason he high fives the crowd and dances in a chair in the middle of the stage.
Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show. He also gave the finger to HuK in previous MLG's without the slightest provoking. The context makes it an insult.
MC's stunts = Showmanship Idra's gestures = Just bad blood.
It's a HUGE difference. It's like comparing scoring a goal and celebrating by waving your shirt with scoring a goal and celebrating by screaming it in the face of the receiving goalkeeper. The latter is fined and penalized, very harshly in some leagues.
And yeah, I agree Idra gets lots of attention with these things, I just fail to see how that is attractive to anyone except for WWE fans, and I wouldn't like SC2 to go the WWE way, we'll have players setting up scenarios and such things "for the show". That'd be terrible.
"Who the hell in their right mind takes the middle finger as a literal "Fuck you"."
Either take things literally or not, you can't do both.
And MC is taking it to WWE standards, throat slashes? Come on, cheesy as shit WWE bullcrap. Kamehameha from MMA? Woooooow. Completely fake and unrealistic, the only thing they're missing is tanned and oiled bodies with a douchey haircut. The difference is that IdrA is real, he doesn't do things for show. MC and MMA are showing off their fake bullcrap, Idra acts like a human being and not a cartoon.
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation.
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ?
You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama)
You both miss the point. MC didn't mean to insult idra. His idea was to ignite the crowd with some sillyness. Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you"?? Hahahahaha that's just crazy. It's the same reason he high fives the crowd and dances in a chair in the middle of the stage.
Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show. He also gave the finger to HuK in previous MLG's without the slightest provoking.
MC's stunts = Showmanship Idra's gestures = Just bad blood.
It's a HUGE difference. It's like comparing scoring a goal and celebrating by waving your shirt with scoring a goal and celebrating by screaming it in the face of the receiving goalkeeper. The latter is fined and penalized, very harshly in some leagues.
And yeah, I agree Idra gets lots of attention with these things, I just fail to see how that is attractive to anyone except for WWE fans, and I wouldn't like SC2 to go the WWE way, we'll have players setting up scenarios and such things "for the show". That'd be terrible.
The problem is that you terribly generalize the situation. Human motives can be very complex, as can be human personality. Very often personalities and motives are incomparably more complex than what we think they are.
"Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show."
This is complete bullshit. Stuff like this is contextual and situational. There are so many different possibilities, different situations, different ways of expressing it, so many different meanings that giving the finger can have, so many different meanings that can have a very positive overtone.
Yet, here you are, telling us that giving the finger has this ONE and ONLY meaning that just applies to any situation.
THANK YOU for establishing THE DEFINITION of THE MEANING of GIVING THE FINGER. I guess it will help everyone, particularly in extinguishing sensless disagreements about personal interpretations, and this utterly unbearable idea of applying intelligence instead of iron rules and definitions to solve such problems. THANK YOU <3 !!!
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation.
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ?
You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama)
You both miss the point. MC didn't mean to insult idra. His idea was to ignite the crowd with some sillyness. Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you", considering the context?? Hahahahaha that's just crazy. It's the same reason he high fives the crowd and dances in a chair in the middle of the stage.
Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show. He also gave the finger to HuK in previous MLG's without the slightest provoking. The context makes it an insult.
MC's stunts = Showmanship Idra's gestures = Just bad blood.
It's a HUGE difference. It's like comparing scoring a goal and celebrating by waving your shirt with scoring a goal and celebrating by screaming it in the face of the receiving goalkeeper. The latter is fined and penalized, very harshly in some leagues.
And yeah, I agree Idra gets lots of attention with these things, I just fail to see how that is attractive to anyone except for WWE fans, and I wouldn't like SC2 to go the WWE way, we'll have players setting up scenarios and such things "for the show". That'd be terrible.
don't try to hard, you'll not convince them anyway. once they put their zerg and/or nationalistic mask on, everything is pointless
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation.
On July 08 2011 09:38 j4ckd4v13z wrote:
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ?
You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama)
You both miss the point. MC didn't mean to insult idra. His idea was to ignite the crowd with some sillyness. Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you", considering the context?? Hahahahaha that's just crazy. It's the same reason he high fives the crowd and dances in a chair in the middle of the stage.
Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show. He also gave the finger to HuK in previous MLG's without the slightest provoking. The context makes it an insult.
MC's stunts = Showmanship Idra's gestures = Just bad blood.
It's a HUGE difference. It's like comparing scoring a goal and celebrating by waving your shirt with scoring a goal and celebrating by screaming it in the face of the receiving goalkeeper. The latter is fined and penalized, very harshly in some leagues.
And yeah, I agree Idra gets lots of attention with these things, I just fail to see how that is attractive to anyone except for WWE fans, and I wouldn't like SC2 to go the WWE way, we'll have players setting up scenarios and such things "for the show". That'd be terrible.
"Who the hell in their right mind takes the middle finger as a literal "Fuck you"."
Either take things literally or not, you can't do both.
And MC is taking it to WWE standards, throat slashes? Come on, cheesy as shit WWE bullcrap. Kamehameha from MMA? Woooooow. Completely fake and unrealistic, the only thing they're missing is tanned and oiled bodies with a douchey haircut. The difference is that IdrA is real, he doesn't do things for show. MC and MMA are showing off their fake bullcrap, Idra acts like a human being and not a cartoon.
Idra acts like a cartoon of a player you mean, quitting in the middle of the game and destroying both the observer's possibility of watching a possible comeback and the competition itself. If MC and MMA show off their fake bullcrap, they at least do so outside of the game. THE GAME AND SKILL IS WHAT MATTERS (Or what should matter, at least), Idra makes his "efame" by being a dick inside and outside of the game, and doesn't even deliver quality games anymore (for the most part, sometimes he actually does).
I don't care if players do goofy stuff to light up the crowd if they give their best when they play, play it until the very end and show incredible skill, it makes it funnier. When a player starts insulting other players outside of the game to vent his own frustration, it's just bad.
About the gestures, it's the context that makes the gesture. If I'm joking around with my friend and he lashes up his middle finger, it doesn't matter at all. If an unknown individual flashes his middle finger after being clowned out in the middle of a gaming competition, it's a different thing. "Throat slashing" in that context is just ridiculous nonsense, Idra's face and gesture say a different thing, I could be wrong in this case though, but the point stands.
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation.
On July 08 2011 09:38 j4ckd4v13z wrote:
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ?
You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama)
You both miss the point. MC didn't mean to insult idra. His idea was to ignite the crowd with some sillyness. Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you", considering the context?? Hahahahaha that's just crazy. It's the same reason he high fives the crowd and dances in a chair in the middle of the stage.
Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show. He also gave the finger to HuK in previous MLG's without the slightest provoking. The context makes it an insult.
MC's stunts = Showmanship Idra's gestures = Just bad blood.
It's a HUGE difference. It's like comparing scoring a goal and celebrating by waving your shirt with scoring a goal and celebrating by screaming it in the face of the receiving goalkeeper. The latter is fined and penalized, very harshly in some leagues.
And yeah, I agree Idra gets lots of attention with these things, I just fail to see how that is attractive to anyone except for WWE fans, and I wouldn't like SC2 to go the WWE way, we'll have players setting up scenarios and such things "for the show". That'd be terrible.
don't try to hard, you'll not convince them anyway. once they put their zerg and/or nationalistic mask on, everything is pointless
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
Yes, an extended digit is far worse than exsanguination or decapitation.
On July 08 2011 09:38 j4ckd4v13z wrote:
On July 08 2011 09:26 mordk wrote: I think the showmanship of people like MC is absolutely fine. Throat slashing gesture is just a joke. Giving your opponent the middle finger is just wrong. They are completely different things and carry different meanings.
^ This is just stupid. -MC was the one provoking IdrA, he wouldn't have flipped him off without being baited - How is giving the finger (Fuck off) more dirty than throat slashing (I'm going to kill you) ?
You also mentioned it would be a good idea to fine the "dirty" players, yet ironically idra gets the most attention (at least out of the foreigners so is helping esports with his drama)
You both miss the point. MC didn't mean to insult idra. His idea was to ignite the crowd with some sillyness. Who the hell in their right mind takes that gesture as a literal "I'm about to decapitate you"?? Hahahahaha that's just crazy. It's the same reason he high fives the crowd and dances in a chair in the middle of the stage.
Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show. He also gave the finger to HuK in previous MLG's without the slightest provoking.
MC's stunts = Showmanship Idra's gestures = Just bad blood.
It's a HUGE difference. It's like comparing scoring a goal and celebrating by waving your shirt with scoring a goal and celebrating by screaming it in the face of the receiving goalkeeper. The latter is fined and penalized, very harshly in some leagues.
And yeah, I agree Idra gets lots of attention with these things, I just fail to see how that is attractive to anyone except for WWE fans, and I wouldn't like SC2 to go the WWE way, we'll have players setting up scenarios and such things "for the show". That'd be terrible.
The problem is that you terribly generalize the situation. Human motives can be very complex, as can be human personality. Very often personalities and motives are incomparably more complex than what we think they are.
"Meanwhile, giving the finger is just meant to insult someone, not to make a show."
This is complete bullshit. Stuff like this is contextual and situational. There are so many different possibilities, different situations, different ways of expressing it, so many different meanings that giving the finger can have, so many different meanings that can have a very positive overtone.
Yet, here you are, telling us that giving the finger has this ONE and ONLY meaning that just applies to any situation.
THANK YOU for establishing THE DEFINITION of THE MEANING of GIVING THE FINGER. I guess it will help everyone, particularly in extinguishing sensless disagreements about personal interpretations, and this utterly unbearable idea of applying intelligence instead of iron rules and definitions to solve such problems. THANK YOU <3 !!!
No I didn't, read again, I edited that part . Just like you say, it's contextual. The context in which it happened makes it bad.
oh dear. please do not censor starcraft 2. the bm and all that jazz brings out the competitiveness and rivalry in sc2. i am glad that most of TL thinks that BM is okay.
Breaking contracts = Bad, and should be fined Players refusing to censor themselves, and saying whatever they want = good and should be encouraged
I am personalty of the belief that if someone is so emotionally and mentally immature that a word can offend then then they need to get a grip on reality, and grow up.
I don't care which sport you play, you'll almost always have BM between players. Difference is they mouth it near each other on the pitch/field/court, they don't typ it out for all their fans to see. If you would fine NFL players for the words in a huddle you'd probably have a bankrupt league in no time
Let it be while it lasts, if this game will actually be as big as people hope (not expect); the censor will follow soon enough. Thats the downside of popularity, you gotta conform to more people - and people are represented by organisations sad enough.
It seems the op is taking things out of their environment and context. All of the examples of idra using bm are in game. Have you ever been near anything NFL? This would be like fining playes for swearing during a game. Players don't get fined for what they say to each other. There is some serious nasty that comes out. I can't count the amount of times i've seen a swear word shown on tv. No you can't hear it but anybody who knows how to see knows exactly what is being said.
This would be different is Idras bm crossed over into the public realm. does he swear at the fans? Is he flipping off fans? He is a fierce competitor and lets his emotions get the better of him. That doesn't mean he should be fined for things that occur in game or related to the game. Where do you draw the line. there are a lot of examples of bm, some are more offensive depending on which culture you come from as well. So should there be different rules depending on where the tournament is held or where the players are from? Are players in the same tourney allowed to exhibit different bm if they are from different countries? Is an early gg a finable offense. An early gg is much worse in some players minds than any string of obscentites that you could string together.
On July 08 2011 10:34 bigbadgreen wrote: It seems the op is taking things out of their environment and context. All of the examples of idra using bm are in game. Have you ever been near anything NFL? This would be like fining playes for swearing during a game. Players don't get fined for what they say to each other. There is some serious nasty that comes out. I can't count the amount of times i've seen a swear word shown on tv. No you can't hear it but anybody who knows how to see knows exactly what is being said.
This would be different is Idras bm crossed over into the public realm. does he swear at the fans? Is he flipping off fans? He is a fierce competitor and lets his emotions get the better of him. That doesn't mean he should be fined for things that occur in game or related to the game. Where do you draw the line. there are a lot of examples of bm, some are more offensive depending on which culture you come from as well. So should there be different rules depending on where the tournament is held or where the players are from? Are players in the same tourney allowed to exhibit different bm if they are from different countries? Is an early gg a finable offense. An early gg is much worse in some players minds than any string of obscentites that you could string together.
There just isn't a place for it yet.
An early GG is definitely much worse than the BM, doesn't mean Idra's BM is not bad.
Actually, saying Idra is a fierce competitor is a travesty. A fierce competitor would never GG like idra does. DRG/MMA/MVP are fierce competitors, who will fight to the last second.
On July 08 2011 10:34 bigbadgreen wrote: It seems the op is taking things out of their environment and context. All of the examples of idra using bm are in game. Have you ever been near anything NFL? This would be like fining playes for swearing during a game. Players don't get fined for what they say to each other. There is some serious nasty that comes out. I can't count the amount of times i've seen a swear word shown on tv. No you can't hear it but anybody who knows how to see knows exactly what is being said.
This would be different is Idras bm crossed over into the public realm. does he swear at the fans? Is he flipping off fans? He is a fierce competitor and lets his emotions get the better of him. That doesn't mean he should be fined for things that occur in game or related to the game. Where do you draw the line. there are a lot of examples of bm, some are more offensive depending on which culture you come from as well. So should there be different rules depending on where the tournament is held or where the players are from? Are players in the same tourney allowed to exhibit different bm if they are from different countries? Is an early gg a finable offense. An early gg is much worse in some players minds than any string of obscentites that you could string together.
There just isn't a place for it yet.
An early GG is definitely much worse than the BM, doesn't mean Idra's BM is not bad.
Actually, saying Idra is a fierce competitor is a travesty. A fierce competitor would never GG like idra does. DRG/MMA/MVP are fierce competitors, who will fight to the last second.
you left out boxer, he'll continue to fight as long as he has 1 scv and 400 minerals. ^,.^;;
There's a difference in BM and just trash/smack talk to get in your opponents heads, look at every professional sporting event out there everyone and there mother is talking smack trying to get other people thrown off their games. Dont get me wrong there are people who take it to far and penalties ensue.
Can someone explain what ta hell is the point of this discussion? The companies and teams are the ones who arbitrate what's acceptable behavior and what isn't based on their perception of the market's sensibilities. Who cares what some random people on forums deem "bad for ESPORTS." Don't worry, people vote with their money and eyes.
On July 08 2011 10:34 bigbadgreen wrote: It seems the op is taking things out of their environment and context. All of the examples of idra using bm are in game. Have you ever been near anything NFL? This would be like fining playes for swearing during a game. Players don't get fined for what they say to each other. There is some serious nasty that comes out. I can't count the amount of times i've seen a swear word shown on tv. No you can't hear it but anybody who knows how to see knows exactly what is being said.
There's an obvious difference, anything said in chat between players is also shown on the stream, for everyone to see.
Another person who thinks sucking the fun out of the game will actually make it bigger, sigh.
Not how it works, random people arent going to think "well i dont get it but these people seem serious and no nonsense so i might get interested." It needs to be fun, have personalities, rivalries and some trash talking to spark peoples interest.
I referee soccer games, and if a player tells me or another player to "fuck off", that's one of the easiest red cards i can throw. They are using abusive language? They're don't need to be around the game anymore.
I do think gaming leagues should hold their players to a professional etiquette; these are the players we look up to. In a similar manner to any other sport, I wouldn't want a pro athlete in baseball/football swearing and getting away with it "because it is funny/entertaining" or "encourages rivalry". Do the yankees-redsox publicly swear and act bad mannered at eachother? No. And when they do, they're fined/suspended however deemed fit. Bottom line for me is, these players are putting themselves out in public. They should act like the adults they are, and respect their opponents like they do their best friends/family.
PS- there's plenty of BM on ladders. If you want your fill of it, go play there
On July 08 2011 11:03 RedBack wrote: Yay fantastic thread.
Another person who thinks sucking the fun out of the game will actually make it bigger, sigh.
Not how it works, random people arent going to think "well i dont get it but these people seem serious and no nonsense so i might get interested." It needs to be fun, have personalities, rivalries and some trash talking to spark peoples interest.
I don't see how people equate personality, rivalry, and some trash talking to BM. I'm not saying players should just be mindless playing husks. There's a huge difference between what you're referencing and actually insulting another competitor directly, or insulting the crowd.
Not really, sure there are lines you shouldnt cross with things you say.
But to think outlawing bm and this sort of stuff is going to make any difference to growing anything is ridiculous. No more people are going to become interested if it becomes more 'proffesional" whatever that actually means. All you will do is dilute the experience for people who already enjoy it. When the game becomes so big that major media are reporting everything the players say, maybe then you can start worrying about bm.
Sure a big time sport has to be moderated heavily because its beeing watched and scrutinised by everyone. But never forget its the spats, fights etc that happen once in a while that have people taling about it at work the next day.
On July 08 2011 10:31 Loxley wrote: I don't care which sport you play, you'll almost always have BM between players. Difference is they mouth it near each other on the pitch/field/court, they don't typ it out for all their fans to see. If you would fine NFL players for the words in a huddle you'd probably have a bankrupt league in no time
Let it be while it lasts, if this game will actually be as big as people hope (not expect); the censor will follow soon enough. Thats the downside of popularity, you gotta conform to more people - and people are represented by organisations sad enough.
The video of IdrA flipping MC off from MLG has 88,000 views. The FINALS of the very same tournament has 44,000 views.
People love BM, I'm sorry that you don't and that you're under the delusion that the majority of people don't, but the view count speaks for itself. The finals of MLG was AWESOME... there was no reason for a SC2 fan to skip those games. Twice as many people watched IdrA throw the finger to MC than people watched MMA vs Losira.... That's a big deal.
BM is part of the game. Also I believe it was in some NASL cast where incontrol was talking about the language people use. A lot of the words gamers use have a bad connotation but they dont really mean it. Racist comments and bad words are just a part of a gamers life and the game. If you dont like it, maybe you should turn on the mature language filter, which blizzard actually defaults as the option I believe.
Also, Idra's BM gives him SOOO much attention. He is crazy good yes, but his name is mentioned more than Nestea in a regular sc2 chat. Look at his fan club, Posts- 16650 Views- 3082958. Whether or not he does BM on purpose, hes getting all the attention.
This is our culture, this is who we are. If the GENERAL public don't like it then deal it with it. I want esports to grow aswell but not into this professional bullshit with fines for simple BM. Yes this does exist in regular sports but that is no reason for us to imitate it. One of the reason i like to watch esports is because the drama and emotions come through. I like the cheer for people not robots. This is just fucking censorship.
I do believe MLG casts with all the blood effects on which makes MLG technically teen (i believe thats what its called in NA) rated by whatever the board of game ratings is called in NA. And personally I disagree with the OP as I for one don't want e-sports to turn into golf, where the players are so dry they have no personalities. I can sort of understand not wanting a player to say "Fuck off" but what can you do about it that won't kill the character in pro sc2? Do you list all the swears they can't use in the rules? In that case what if a player uses another language or a regional swear? Or does it become where you can only say certain things like gg when the game is over and pp when you want a pause and anything else is penalized? What about on stage gestures whether they hadoukens or single finger salutes?
I hate to break it to you but e-sports will not become respected as a real sport in the eyes of anyone who looks down on it already. And sucking the life out of the spectacle in the hopes of winning over such people is a fruitless and destructive battle.
I can't believe all the people who claim they watch Starcraft to see the personalities and the BM. Does no one watch it for the action and the strategy anymore? Is there no beauty in seeing a perfectly executed flank or suspense in not knowing who's going to come out ahead?
If you want to watch two people trash talk each other and get your kicks out of that, go watch Jerry Springer or Maury.
Professionalism is relative. It is very common in software development to wear jeans and t-shirts to work. Hell, even Steve Jobs wears jeans and blouses to keynote speeches. It's completely professional to have Spotify playing music in the background (via headphones) while you write code. But in some other fields professionalism means suits and tight etiquette.
On July 08 2011 13:23 Greentellon wrote: Professionalism is relative. It is very common in software development to wear jeans and t-shirts to work. Hell, even Steve Jobs wears jeans and blouses to keynote speeches. It's completely professional to have Spotify playing music in the background (via headphones) while you write code. But in some other fields professionalism means suits and tight etiquette.
Professionalism is relative.
Maybe so, but even among those professions, there is a level of professionalism that is expected. While the attire may differ, the basic respect given to the bosses and leaders of the company are all expected among the professions. Also, basic respect should be given to the clients of the company. So, while professionalism is somewhat relative, there are certain aspects that are universal.
On July 08 2011 13:23 Greentellon wrote: Professionalism is relative. It is very common in software development to wear jeans and t-shirts to work. Hell, even Steve Jobs wears jeans and blouses to keynote speeches. It's completely professional to have Spotify playing music in the background (via headphones) while you write code. But in some other fields professionalism means suits and tight etiquette.
Professionalism is relative.
Maybe so, but even among those professions, there is a level of professionalism that is expected. While the attire may differ, the basic respect given to the bosses and leaders of the company are all expected among the professions. Also, basic respect should be given to the clients of the company. So, while professionalism is somewhat relative, there are certain aspects that are universal.
I don't see any problems with professionalism of SC2 for example. It's entertainment, and people like MC get that fact. What they do isn't not unprofessional, it's part of the job. It's sh*t like MC's ceremonies that attracts people to esports so things like that should be part of it. Entertainment, I say.
On July 08 2011 13:19 Supafly wrote: I can't believe all the people who claim they watch Starcraft to see the personalities and the BM. Does no one watch it for the action and the strategy anymore? Is there no beauty in seeing a perfectly executed flank or suspense in not knowing who's going to come out ahead?
If you want to watch two people trash talk each other and get your kicks out of that, go watch Jerry Springer or Maury.
No one watches JUST for that, but those little things make the games a little more interesting when there is a grudge on the line
On July 08 2011 13:23 Greentellon wrote: Professionalism is relative. It is very common in software development to wear jeans and t-shirts to work. Hell, even Steve Jobs wears jeans and blouses to keynote speeches. It's completely professional to have Spotify playing music in the background (via headphones) while you write code. But in some other fields professionalism means suits and tight etiquette.
Professionalism is relative.
Maybe so, but even among those professions, there is a level of professionalism that is expected. While the attire may differ, the basic respect given to the bosses and leaders of the company are all expected among the professions. Also, basic respect should be given to the clients of the company. So, while professionalism is somewhat relative, there are certain aspects that are universal.
I don't see any problems with professionalism of SC2 for example. It's entertainment, and people like MC get that fact. What they do isn't not unprofessional, it's part of the job. It's sh*t like MC's ceremonies that attracts people to esports so things like that should be part of it. Entertainment, I say.
Note, I didn't say anything about the level of professionalism in SC2. The base level of professionalism that I was speaking of that permeates most occupations falls a bit above Idra's "fuck you", in my humble opinion. When you expose an audience, and yes, like you said, Starcraft is entertainment, so there is definitely an audience. When you proclaim to the audience, and in some cases, the world, an offensive statement, there needs to be limits on what you say. Movies have ratings. TV has limits on what they can say. Entertainers on the street can't just take off their clothes and run around claiming, "Well, it's entertainment".
On July 08 2011 13:23 Greentellon wrote: Professionalism is relative. It is very common in software development to wear jeans and t-shirts to work. Hell, even Steve Jobs wears jeans and blouses to keynote speeches. It's completely professional to have Spotify playing music in the background (via headphones) while you write code. But in some other fields professionalism means suits and tight etiquette.
Professionalism is relative.
Maybe so, but even among those professions, there is a level of professionalism that is expected. While the attire may differ, the basic respect given to the bosses and leaders of the company are all expected among the professions. Also, basic respect should be given to the clients of the company. So, while professionalism is somewhat relative, there are certain aspects that are universal.
I don't see any problems with professionalism of SC2 for example. It's entertainment, and people like MC get that fact. What they do isn't not unprofessional, it's part of the job. It's sh*t like MC's ceremonies that attracts people to esports so things like that should be part of it. Entertainment, I say.
Note, I didn't say anything about the level of professionalism in SC2. The base level of professionalism that I was speaking of that permeates most occupations falls a bit above Idra's "fuck you", in my humble opinion. When you expose an audience, and yes, like you said, Starcraft is entertainment, so there is definitely an audience. When you proclaim to the audience, and in some cases, the world, an offensive statement, there needs to be limits on what you say. Movies have ratings. TV has limits on what they can say. Entertainers on the street can't just take off their clothes and run around claiming, "Well, it's entertainment".
Of course I know there is a certain degree of professionalism that is required in the work life (in our culture). If you don't have anything to say about the current topic (SC2/eSports professionalism) I guess that ends our discussion.
On July 08 2011 13:23 Greentellon wrote: Professionalism is relative. It is very common in software development to wear jeans and t-shirts to work. Hell, even Steve Jobs wears jeans and blouses to keynote speeches. It's completely professional to have Spotify playing music in the background (via headphones) while you write code. But in some other fields professionalism means suits and tight etiquette.
Professionalism is relative.
Maybe so, but even among those professions, there is a level of professionalism that is expected. While the attire may differ, the basic respect given to the bosses and leaders of the company are all expected among the professions. Also, basic respect should be given to the clients of the company. So, while professionalism is somewhat relative, there are certain aspects that are universal.
I don't see any problems with professionalism of SC2 for example. It's entertainment, and people like MC get that fact. What they do isn't not unprofessional, it's part of the job. It's sh*t like MC's ceremonies that attracts people to esports so things like that should be part of it. Entertainment, I say.
Note, I didn't say anything about the level of professionalism in SC2. The base level of professionalism that I was speaking of that permeates most occupations falls a bit above Idra's "fuck you", in my humble opinion. When you expose an audience, and yes, like you said, Starcraft is entertainment, so there is definitely an audience. When you proclaim to the audience, and in some cases, the world, an offensive statement, there needs to be limits on what you say. Movies have ratings. TV has limits on what they can say. Entertainers on the street can't just take off their clothes and run around claiming, "Well, it's entertainment".
Of course I know there is a certain degree of professionalism that is required in the work life. If you don't have anything to say about the current topic (SC2/eSports professionalism) I guess that ends our discussion.
If you actually read my post, I further explained what I expected to be the base level of professionalism in SC2, which was directly in response to what you were talking about in your post about how you didn't see any problems with the level of professionalism in SC2. Therefore, I stated what I viewed the problem to be.
I find this thread simply a "Hey look at me, talk about me on your podcast because its a controversial topic." type of thread.
eSports and every other sport needs some type of drama/villain to succeed, the NFL has the Cowboys, the MLB has the Yankees, the NBA has Lebron James/Lakers..This hate may be generated different ways between sports but how we get ours will be different two, Idra saying a simple "fuck off" instantly makes any match between him and HuK in the future that much more exciting. Excitement brings viewers, viewers bring money, money brings better production, better production brings more viewers, it's a big circle that all starts with having interesting players. We need the BM.
On July 08 2011 14:38 DivineSC wrote: I find this thread simply a "Hey look at me, talk about me on your podcast because its a controversial topic." type of thread.
eSports and every other sport needs some type of drama/villain to succeed, the NFL has the Cowboys, the MLB has the Yankees, the NBA has Lebron James/Lakers..This hate may be generated different ways between sports but how we get ours will be different two, Idra saying a simple "fuck off" instantly makes any match between him and HuK in the future that much more exciting. Excitement brings viewers, viewers bring money, money brings better production, better production brings more viewers, it's a big circle that all starts with having interesting players. We need the BM.
Yep. As long as people aren't going over the top with it, like literally getting out of their chair and starting fist fights. Stale, unemotional players are boring, and I'm not watching starcraft to bore myself.
Its probally been mentioned, but this question has been answered in Ep 25 of state of the game. And I completely agree with what the people on that show said. Like day 9 said, CONSIDER THE Esports
Huk was patronizing and being disrepectfull to idra in that circumstance so pretty bad example. I don't think a tournament can fine someone unless they do what NASL did with the deposit. There is no organization that owns all the leagues and tournaments so how would they fine the players. MLG would lose viewers if they fined idra and he just decided not to play there anymore. Esports will always be behind real sports so no reason to fear that. Why aren't people allowed to dislike/hate somebody as long as it is non-violent...seems fine to me. Just random thoughts i had after reading this.
Maybe when e-sports athletes start getting paid the same as professional sports athletes, fines will be worthwhile. Until then taking money from the top players is doing nothing but hurting the community. My opinion is that the "unprofessionalism" is very entertaining, it introduces drama and if you can't handle it then ignore it. You're missing out.
I think some BM is needed to keep it interesting and have more personality. Sports are better when rivalries and hard feelings come out, the human drama, but as long as it is kept civil to some extent with consequences if it goes to far. I think of it like baseball. The game was better when the rivals played each other more and the refs did not "warn the benches" as quickly on a brush back. That drama element is what really makes for good storylines, especially to the casual viewer and fan.
Wayne Rooney, fantastic player, remarkable gentleman .... never shy about saying 'fuck off' to the referee, opposition player and even television camera on live football matches
Even though most of you have great arguments, I think that we should get rid of some "insults" in game. Imagine Eurosport start to broadcast SC2 games and people who never got into eSports watch it for the first time and see "Fuck you" or other insults, it doesn't look good. The fine part is maybe a bit exaggerated but there should be consequences. How can we say some players are professional if they don't act as such?
No. You are out of touch. There is 23 pages of thread backing that fact up. You are also being highly unethical by coming into your editor's thread and pushing what he was saying.
It requires a certain vision of the game, to say that there shouldn't be insults involved.
To be frank, at this point in the development of SC2, the game has all to gain from the entertainement value of insults and drama.
The fact is that it is hard to compare SC2 to NFL, just in terms of number of viewers and the extent to which it is imbedded into our culture. So adding a component like there is in "professionnal wrestling" with the "bad guys" and the rivalries brings entertainement value. In football (real football, not american football) you watch your country play, your club play, and then the finals. If I'm rooting for Aston Villa then I won't watch Nottingham vs. Swansea just because they hold a grudge, unless it's a grand final or something. And yet in Dreamhack for example, the game that got the most viewers on the livestream wasn't in the finals, it was a rematch between MC and Idra.
SC2 is a complicated game, and one of the ways to make it more accessible is through drama. NFL is largely accessible, and hence easier to appreciate the game in itself. That's the tough reality e-sports is faced with...
On July 08 2011 11:42 MHT wrote: This is our culture, this is who we are. If the GENERAL public don't like it then deal it with it. I want esports to grow aswell but not into this professional bullshit with fines for simple BM. Yes this does exist in regular sports but that is no reason for us to imitate it. One of the reason i like to watch esports is because the drama and emotions come through. I like the cheer for people not robots. This is just fucking censorship.
I completely agree with you! I don't wanna see robots playing against each other,i wanna see humans play against each other with humans feelings. And i don't wanna see players go to the courtyard just cause one guy was a little BM.That would be ridiculous.
What you basically described is a slightly more leniant version of KeSpa.
E-Sports is more like MMA as opposed to the NFL, and the Marketing works well for MMA leagues like the UFC works well with fighters talking about how much they hate each other and badmouthing/swearing at each other.
HuK and Idra can be compared to the Rampage Jackson vs. Rashad Evans fight, they hate each other they swore at each other publicly and surprise surpise the amount of people that piled in to wach them was huge.
Comparing E-Sports leagues to highly refined and professional leagues like NFL/NHL etc. is just a bad comparison to make. However your article is very well written and thought provoking
I can't keep up with all the events and tournaments right now, but it's really nice sitting down, watching SC2 and there being more then just the game and polite appropriate people playing it. Drama is needed.
I see you've added a poll since yesterday, I can't speak for the majority of the people responding in opposition but I think, for me, it's missing the point. A poll asking if I am pro BM isn't a definite yes for me, a lot of BM is lame and uncool, while some of it is harmless and funny. For me I'm not so much against or for BM as much as I'm for being able to choose for myself weather I like a player's attitude instead of having the league do it for me.
I think there is an important difference between traditional sport and e-sport when it comes to BM.
In e-sports there is no physical contact. In traditional sports especially team based sports like soccer or football the players have physical contact. It usually does not end with words. Having rules against taunting I think is not only for the benefit of the viewers but also to safeguard the players against each other. So I absolutely think it is important to have rules to make sure that everybody keeps a level head. And having rules helps I think. Fights still happen often but I think it would be worse if everybody could just call each other a dick head.
With that being said I think harsh rules against light BM are not necessary. But what happens when players would take it to the extreme? Imagine instead of GG'ing a player would just spew personal insults at the other player for 1-2 minutes. What if that becomes standard and every match starts and ends with tirade of expletives? I wouldn't care for that to be honest. Still I think the vast majority of players is very well mannered.
About the first point regarding contracts, lawyers, etc. I agree 100%... I think it is important to make sure that contracts are honored, price money from tournaments are paid and so on.
I believe that what this article is trying to convey is that when someone outside of eSports look at Starcraft 2 events and sees foreigners swearing at each other, they turn the page. Although it is nice for the fans, it is hard to have a long-term organization when the athletes on camera are not setting a good example to other people. Although people argue that Starcraft 2 is a game and it should only be about fun, when something gets publicized and millions of people are watching, think of the culture it sets for others. The same reason why TV shows or Music Artists do not last long, is because they are setting a bad example for the general public. Frankly, and in no offense to HuK, it was completely disrespectful for him to talk to Idra, and although Idra was right for saying what he did, he could have chosen better words and made his point a lot better. All people heard was profanity when really Idra was trying to say was "Don't talk, focus on the game." MLG clearly states that a player is not allowed to talk, and the article is right to point out that they need to enforce these rules. In MLG's defense, because Idra replied in such a way, both players were at fault. All in all although it does create good drama, but players need to be more tactful when disrespecting each other.
This thread deals with the issue about BM in SC2 - I ignored the part about SK Gaming.
I am the dumbest guy here, and this might have been pointed out deep in the thread, but why not just enable the game's language filter on chat during the cast or disable chat other then greetings and submissions? I know it just avoids the issue, but as many people point out fines will not work in a confederacy that is e-Sports today.
On to the bigger issue of the lack of civility displayed by both players, that is part hollywooding for the cast and a lack of standards and enforcement by the tournament directors. To which enabling the language controls in the game can address 25%, but the other 75% is getting simple to follow and enforce rules, and having the players police themselves so the tournament directors only have to focus on the 1% extreme cases. I am not a fan of a lot of bureaucracy that affects play... (Take the 2011 Hockey Playoffs, all the rules changes really affected the play of the players going into the playoffs).
The players are the ones who have the most at stake right now and they need as much positive exposure to increase the tournament purses via sponsors. So creating a set of rules that they can easily follow and police themselves will probably result less drama and better compliance. When a player decides to take manners in his own hands and lets say take all his units and spell FU HUK, that is where the Tournament director comes in with the ban hammer.
So in summary, enable as many in-game controls as possible to control behavior or slip-ups during cast, have simple to follow rules (remember a lot of players speak different languages and might not understand complicated rules) and explain the consequences and why there are penalties (Just like regular sports), and then make the TD or refs the ultimate authority to handle situations that are clear violations of the stated rules and controls.
On July 08 2011 00:32 coL.drewbie wrote: players aren't allowed to chat in game, I got in trouble for chatting with HuK at MLG Dallas when we were playing a seeding match and bnet was lagging really hard.
What disciplinary actions were taken towards HuK and Idra at MLG? Or against yourself? Or in any other case?
If they don't enforce the rules in aired games then one must assume it's allowed.
Not that I disagree with it being allowed. If anything, immaturity should be punishshable since that's the major thing working against acceptance of esports, not some 'fuck off' comment.
More professionalism is badly needed in the SC2 scene, but its the not player conduct that's the issue. Having suffered through the NASL finals, its pretty clear that event organizers really need to up their game, if e-sports is to be taken seriously. Player chatting is a frivolous issue. I don't see it turning off large numbers of potential fans (and can/does turn on some fans). Huge delays, one-eared sound, no updating about the major problems, constant pausing and re-starting, makes it come across as non-professional, but creates and unpleasant viewing experience. It turns off not only potential fans but existing fans, like myself.
Every penny taken from a player and given to a lawyer, is a penny that could have been spent sending a player to a tournament, on a LAN event, on a prize pool, etc.
If eSports was a multi-billion dollar industry like the real world sports you talk about in your article, then I would entirely agree, however we need to be banding together to help the scene grow, rather than fighting each other over petty disagreements.
I think if there are considerable amounts of money or long term commitments involved, it is probably good to have it all written down on paper. It protects you from getting screwed if the other party can't or won't stick to the agreement. I'm sure legally binding contracts are already made where it is natural.
And unless organizers have explicitly written anti-BM clauses in the rule set, they can't really fine players for speaking freely.
even if organizations like the NFL fine their players for being bm it doesnt mean that it is correct and also if ESL would sue their players it really hurts them but a football star doesnt care about 10k or something and i also think that bm kinda belongs to esports and makes it more fun
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fMI5h.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/elBVv.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/31Fwl.jpg)
that way, no more BM issues or fines etc.
And thanks to all of you discussing this. In the end, the point is to start a discussion and see what the community wants.
fine him!
