This isn't going to turn into another LoL vs (all other games apparently) thread. You can speak your mind about the selection of games but keep it civil.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the Way...
But Yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
I think LoL deserves to do whatever it wants; if viewers want to watch it (and they clearly do) then it can be in any tournament that takes it. However, linking one short clip doesn't prove it takes any more skill than anything. DotA has been doing far more impressive stuff for years, on top of having more difficult mechanics and requiring more map awareness.
Case and point why I fell LoL gets too much recognition. It aggravates me but it is what esports boils down too at the moment. I prefer games with a much higher skill ceiling, and LoL does not fit into it.
Ah...so LoL does not have a high enough skill ceiling? Can you explain why that is the case?
Its a lot of comparing to DotA. It would take a lot of explaining and most would disagree. But if you were really interested I could list the main problems LoL has.
I play LoL a crapton, and I can say for sure that LoL has less skill requirements than any other MOBA (BLC, HoN, DOTA, DOTA2)
This is because: The control system for LoL is terrible. Like, seriously bad. You are "autolocked" into one champion. This severely reduces the game's skill cap, because you can only control one unit at a time - ever. Sure, there are champions that can create a "double", but there's only 2 of these champions, and you only control up to 1 additional "unit". So basically, in SC2 terms it's like controlling a single infestor or ghost or high templar for the entire game.
In DOTA and HoN, you can box several units (much like SC2) and the control panel will show all the units you've selected, with one "main" unit. I think this is a spinoff of how Blizzard made WC3. In BLC, your single champion has like 14-16 moves and skills, compared to LoL (1 champion, 4 skills, possibly 1-2 other item-skills).
There's plenty of other reasons why LoL is not considered very hard to play (no denying, no loss of money upon death) and many features of LoL that cause people to further mistake LoL to be a noob game (cartoonish graphics, free to play, simple HUD, etc), but I think the control system is why LoL is a terrible esports game.
LoL is to DotA as SC2 is to BW. I guess that means SC2 is a terrible esports game too.
Nope, completely wrong. SC2 simplified the UI and added a few features, but didn't take away the complexity of the unit relationships, the variety of viable strategies, and so many other features that are in the heart of SC. Plus, SC2 requires a ton of multitasking, even with MBS, unlimited groups, automining and smart casting.
LoL striped DotA bare of all the features that make the latter a complex game. They removed creep denying so skilled creepers matter less, made towers stronger so the early game is a lot safer, changed the game's pace, so little advantages are less important in time, made dying less punishing so players can take safer risks (which makes strategy less important), and many other things that are essential to making DotA as good as it is.
The changes are so radical, that it's only comparable to giving starcraft auto building orders and auto rallying units to your army and such nonsense, or like giving the AI the possibility of autobuilding supply structures whenever a supplyblock is near, or like, making all races equal, such ridiculous stuff. They changed the game completely, they only followed the basis of a model, they didn't make the same game.
SC2, in contrast, has pretty much the same mechanics, with an improved AI and UI. This comes with a reduction in the difficulty, but as players go better and better, they push the boundaries of the game, and the skill ceiling isn't nearly reached yet, that's a sign of a healthy e-sport.
TLDR: SC2 is very similar to BW, except with a streamlining of UI and AI. LoL is a completely different game from DotA, they changed the things that made the game great, and turned it into smth more casual.
I talk to people, they've never even heard of Quake Live. These people are gamers even, I play sc2 with them often. There is no advertising or anything at all for Quake, hardly anyones heard of it. I feel that it could have a larger fanbase if id did a better job, it's a well good enough game.
i think that lol is good for fun... but thats it... i enjoy playing it, but it takes no skill.... i mean in comparation with dota even hon.... everyone awaits dota 2 so.... it's fun for spectators, maybe cuz it's full of colors
LoL gets popular because unlike most games now-a-days the developers listen to the people who are playing, so they are always balancing, tweaking, and changing things. Most game companies toss out a game every 2 years because it's a title and they know people will just by the same game over and over and over again.
I hope you can give this game a chance and you can try to enjoy it without extremely negative thoughts coming in with barely any knowledge of the game or skill level demanded to compete at these levels.
On June 28 2011 15:47 Gurgl wrote: ESL is a bad organization, they owe alot of prizemoney to players and teams of different games. Until they payout everything they owe and give a public excuse for their unprofessional behaviour I don't care that much about their tournaments when there are so many better ones around.
Don't expect to see any prizemoney if you are going to any ESL tournament to compete.
You either confuse ESL with ESWC, you are uninformed or this is defamation.
On June 28 2011 17:42 Norway wrote: LoL gets popular because unlike most games now-a-days the developers listen to the people who are playing, so they are always balancing, tweaking, and changing things. Most game companies toss out a game every 2 years because it's a title and they know people will just by the same game over and over and over again.
I hope you can give this game a chance and you can try to enjoy it without extremely negative thoughts coming in with barely any knowledge of the game or skill level demanded to compete at these levels.
You think everyone bashing the game doesn't know a thing about it?
On June 28 2011 17:42 Norway wrote: LoL gets popular because unlike most games now-a-days the developers listen to the people who are playing, so they are always balancing, tweaking, and changing things. Most game companies toss out a game every 2 years because it's a title and they know people will just by the same game over and over and over again.
I hope you can give this game a chance and you can try to enjoy it without extremely negative thoughts coming in with barely any knowledge of the game or skill level demanded to compete at these levels.
You think everyone bashing the game doesn't know a thing about it?
Not all, however based on the comments it becomes apparent that not everyone is on the same level. LoL is more marketable otherwise they wouldn't have put it in the tourney.
I would dare to say that only bw's learning curve exceeds quake. Some people that have been playing it for more than 10 years still can't break through the pinnacle of the game. Being the father of e-sports, quake is a series which has had more than 5 different competitive games/mods which require unique sets of skills and thinking patterns (quakeworld, quake 2, quake 3, cpma, quake 4, quake live).. In addition to aim, you need to have great timing skills (the ability to do simple math in less than a second - and even if it's only adding or subtracting 25 or 35 to two digit numbers, you have to do that under pressure and keep your composure), evaluating enemy's stack (i.e. amount of health and armor based on their pickups and damage you did to them), you have to predict your opponents movement based on item timing/enemy positioning/their stack/your positioning/knowledge of their playstyle/current score/weapon control and denial/area control/a lot more. You have to know the range at which you hear enemy footsteps and sounds of item pickups without ever seeing them, finding enemies patterns, mastering your own movement and map progression, you need to know what weapon is best in a given situation, know the fluidity of the map (with every nook and cranny), etc. quake is as hardcore as it gets, in terms of a first perspective shooter.
Everyone just chill out. Competitive LoL is, at the moment, a kin to what competitive World of Warcraft was--a complete joke in player skill when compared to other games, but 'fun' and have a huge audience. If Riot can get their shit together LoL could be massive. I for one am a HUGE fan of LoL and played in a lot of competitive leagues back in DoTA, and yet it still makes me me feel sick seeing people getting paid huge chunks of money for being so good at such easy games. It's like they get paid because of personality and audience rather than skill, because the game inherently doesn't contain that much.
That being said I really think people discredit the skill that is required in LoL. Yeah, it's not as high as DoTA or SC, but it at least has more than WoW...right guys?
But just wait, LoL will definitely fall the way of competitive WoW eventually if Riot doesn't do something.
really sad that they didn`t show qlive anymore ... LoL surely is extreme popular, but I don`t like it at all. played it once and had the feeling that most of the people playing it are under 12years..or behave like that :S
I know its slightly off topic but want to grasp the chance and ask anyway: Is there a kinda TL.net for QL? I wanted to follow the QL scene a bit since I think its a great spectator game. So I would appreciate some page on the inet where one can see some upcoming events and so on. Thanks guys!
On June 28 2011 18:14 Titorelli wrote: I know its slightly off topic but want to grasp the chance and ask anyway: Is there a kinda TL.net for QL? I wanted to follow the QL scene a bit since I think its a great spectator game. So I would appreciate some page on the inet where one can see some upcoming events and so on. Thanks guys!
www.esreality.com is a good site for quakelive news. If you want to play quakelive then www.quakelive.com is the place to go, it's free and awesome
All of a sudden everyone and their grandmother is a huge Quake Fan. Cant understand this, if so many would watch the Quake Events, ESL would still have them in their Show! But its not like that, i guess everyone just likes to complain about it for the sake of it.
Has anyone ever watched a LoL cast? So freaking boring-- even worse than WoW. I don't know how this game could be an e-sport. I'm not a huge fan of Quake Live, but it was fairly entertaining to watch. If it had to go I wish they would have replaced it with a more viewer-friendly game like some fighter like Street Fighter 4 or I dunno, whatever the newest Battlefield game is.
I have nothing against LoL or DotA, and hope LoL can help grow e-sports since Riot seem pretty dedicated to doing so (compared to Blizzard anyway), but as someone who's never played LoL I tried watching the DH stream and most of the time I either couldn't tell what was going on very well, due to the amount of heroes, spells, item abilities and so on clogging up the screen (none of which I knew what they were doing) or the game was in the mid-stage and nothing was happening. I found even DotA was more interesting to watch, although only barely, since I'd played WC3 and most abilities/animations were familiar. I had fun switching over to Quake Live during the last IEM whenever nothing SC2 was happening, so I'm sad to see it go, but I'm watching for SC2 so I don't really care too much what other games are being played.
I like that LoL is added to the IEM roster. But it is pretty sad that Quake had to leave. Would be better if we had 4 games this year. But sometimes the older games have to make place for the newer ones.
EPT
