EPTESL announces Extreme Masters VI (IEM) - Page 26
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This isn't going to turn into another LoL vs (all other games apparently) thread. You can speak your mind about the selection of games but keep it civil. | ||
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Titorelli
2492 Posts
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poundcakes
Norway239 Posts
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Traumatizer
Canada16 Posts
On June 28 2011 17:50 Norway wrote: Not all, however based on the comments it becomes apparent that not everyone is on the same level. LoL is more marketable otherwise they wouldn't have put it in the tourney. I don't remember anyone saying that LoL players were all on the same level. I didn't go through the 30 pages worth of posts here but the ones I did people were commenting on how LoL is a dumbed down version of DotA or HoN. Which it is, for reasons other people have already stated(i.e. creep denying, no gold loss on death) I haven't seen a post that bashed LoL players yet. Not to say that it hasn't happened but they are far less then the ones explaining why they feel the game isn't worthy of being an e-sport. Myself I watched a couple of games during the semi-finals and finals and I wasn't wow'ed by what I saw. Anything a player did didn't look like something I couldn't do. There was no incredible micro, no crazy reflexes, etc... Not to say that the players don't have those abilities but the game doesn't allow you to benefit if you do have them. What did separate those players from the rest was great decision making and team work. When I would watch DotA though there were pros who could deny almost every creep, you would see insane jukes while people were chasing others through the forest, ridiculous pudge hooks, priestess arrows, and so on. And when watching SC2 and see even more incredible stuff. ridiculous micro and macro, multitasking, unit splittings, insane awareness to the point some players see every drop incoming and even see observers without the need of detection. The reason LoL is being put into IEM is because they put up really high numbers during DH. I believe I heard it was around 160,000 viewers. The more viewers you have the more money comes in. They probably got those viewers because Riot put up a $100,000 prize pool and it also helped that as soon as you logged into LoL they had a link right to the stream. I believe LoL is just a novelty game but only time will really tell for sure. | ||
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Toxi78
966 Posts
On June 28 2011 19:45 Traumatizer wrote: I don't remember anyone saying that LoL players were all on the same level. I didn't go through the 30 pages worth of posts here but the ones I did people were commenting on how LoL is a dumbed down version of DotA or HoN. Which it is, for reasons other people have already stated(i.e. creep denying, no gold loss on death) I haven't seen a post that bashed LoL players yet. Not to say that it hasn't happened but they are far less then the ones explaining why they feel the game isn't worthy of being an e-sport. Myself I watched a couple of games during the semi-finals and finals and I wasn't wow'ed by what I saw. Anything a player did didn't look like something I couldn't do. There was no incredible micro, no crazy reflexes, etc... Not to say that the players don't have those abilities but the game doesn't allow you to benefit if you do have them. What did separate those players from the rest was great decision making and team work. When I would watch DotA though there were pros who could deny almost every creep, you would see insane jukes while people were chasing others through the forest, ridiculous pudge hooks, priestess arrows, and so on. And when watching SC2 and see even more incredible stuff. ridiculous micro and macro, multitasking, unit splittings, insane awareness to the point some players see every drop incoming and even see observers without the need of detection. so your point is that you've never played LoL and you don't see the beauty in it? great. I've never played BW, when I watch a BW game, they only build units and make peons, guess I could do the same, there is nothing I couldn't do : we all have only 2 hands and a brain.... If a game is complex enough sothat a community develops around it with teams supported by giants of esports, it means it's esports, end of the story. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game? Y'know, LoL has out-of-game progression as well, with a leveling system and 'items', the same as WoW. Of course, you max out in level and gear, the same in both games, creating an even playing field. You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous. Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait... Runescape | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
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Traumatizer
Canada16 Posts
so your point is that you've never played LoL and you don't see the beauty in it? great. I've never played BW, when I watch a BW game, they only build units and make peons, guess I could do the same, there is nothing I couldn't do : we all have only 2 hands and a brain.... If a game is complex enough sothat a community develops around it with teams supported by giants of esports, it means it's esports, end of the story. I never said I didn't play LoL. As a matter of fact I do play LoL and that's why I can compare what I am able to do in game to what the pros do. Like I said I didn't see anything out of them that I couldn't do except for great decision making and team work. | ||
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Titorelli
2492 Posts
On June 28 2011 20:06 Ruscour wrote: [...] You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous. Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait... No I am not. I am of the exact same opinion as you are. I have no clue about WoW but to me it seems to be about running around in some forrests lvl'ing up your char by killing stuff and collecting item all the time. I cant see how there could competitive game scenarios be build out of that principle. | ||
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Titorelli
2492 Posts
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Tsenister
United Kingdom112 Posts
On June 28 2011 20:26 Titorelli wrote: No I am not. I am of the exact same opinion as you are. I have no clue about WoW but to me it seems to be about running around in some forrests lvl'ing up your char by killing stuff and collecting item all the time. I cant see how there could competitive game scenarios be build out of that principle. Your whole line of argument is built on not having played WoW at all.... there is PVP in it as well you know  | ||
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Gevna
France2332 Posts
On June 28 2011 20:06 Ruscour wrote: Y'know, LoL has out-of-game progression as well, with a leveling system and 'items', the same as WoW. Of course, you max out in level and gear, the same in both games, creating an even playing field. You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous. Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait... If I remember well, you don't take your own character in wow tournaments. There is a system which gives you a char at max level and you can choose your stuff as your convenance, at least for Blizzcon. So time investment don't matter in tourneys. | ||
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Gr33d
Germany423 Posts
On June 28 2011 20:43 Gevna wrote: If I remember well, you don't take your own character in wow tournaments. There is a system which gives you a char at max level and you can choose your stuff as your convenance, at least for Blizzcon. So time investment don't matter in tourneys. This is true for most tournaments but before you get there you have to place high enough in the pvp rankings. There you can only field your own character and while most of the equipment are rewards from the pvp system, there are always various things that are considered best in slot that you could only get trough PvE (trinkets or legendary weapons come to my mind). So if you play during a time that is dominated by composition X that has a warrior eqipped with Shadowmourne (just an example), if you are not in a guild that can get you this axe, then you are at a disadvantage. A major point for any Esport game for me is that the chances should be equal. In BW you could play versus Flash or some random guy and you both had all the tool available to win. The only difference is skill and training, not that your units do an additional 5 damage just because you played longer than your opponent. | ||
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Scribble
2077 Posts
On a slightly OT note: I think it's hilarious that people who think DotA started in TFT with Icefrog/Guinsoo are acting like pompous hipsters. And like I pointed out before, it's pathetic that SC2 players are shitting all over LoL for being a "dumbed down shell of a game," and claim that "DotA is superior in every way," acting like that makes LoL a disgrace. It's pathetic because on these forums that is the same argument that BW players make against SC2. It's a bit hypocritical to argue that SC2 is a valid e-sport and then shit all over LoL. Some folks on this forum are in desperate need of some perspective. Video games are video games. Trust me, folks, you can enjoy whatever you want to enjoy without shitting on someone else's fun. Personally, I've always enjoyed pong, and I've done so without ever feeling the need to tell everybody who likes table tennis that they're disgraceful pieces of shit. | ||
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Titorelli
2492 Posts
On June 28 2011 20:31 Tsenister wrote: Your whole line of argument is built on not having played WoW at all.... there is PVP in it as well you know Yep thats why I asked how the format of competitive play looks like in WoW since I had a hard time imagining it. Maybe you can elaborate more...? | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On June 28 2011 15:27 50mineral wrote: lol despite not having a single idea whats going on the screen (i.e. only those can watch and appreciate who plays it unlike quake) i can tell every decent quake/starcraft player just laughs with full mouth when it comes to skill and these dota games. personally know a guy who got really good in dota, but he couldnt even reach midskill in quake, he agreed too that these games are far easier. That's totally subjective, but as someone who has played both DotA and LoL, the skill cap is ludicrously higher in DotA than LoL. Of course a DotA player is going to struggle in Quake, people are good at different things. Some people have a knack for things, and when there's no aim and you're just looking at a single unit moving it doesn't look like there's much skill, but the skill in coordination, positioning, and all the factors of juking, fog, disjointing, etc etc etc the game has a very high skill cap, but the most important thing is team coordination and strategy. In LoL the most important thing is team coordination and strategy, but you could sub in a person who's never played before, make them play for an hour a two a day for a month, and given direction they'd perform just fine in a top-level team. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On June 28 2011 20:26 Titorelli wrote: No I am not. I am of the exact same opinion as you are. I have no clue about WoW but to me it seems to be about running around in some forrests lvl'ing up your char by killing stuff and collecting item all the time. I cant see how there could competitive game scenarios be build out of that principle. That's what you do when you start a character...at max level at competitive levels there is only differentiation of skill (and composition), not gear etc. Obviously that's why WoW is not an esport except in special circumstances, it's not designed to be a competitive game, it's designed to be an MMO that just happens to have a competitive mode within it. It's not like DotA or SC2 where you could pick up the game and be in a match, and be on a level playing field, but you have to dedicate the time to get there. It means that the competitive teams are on a level playing field whereas joe casual is not. Hopefully that clears it up for you. WoW is not designed around the competitive PvP side, it's primarily designed around PvE (10 and 25 player raids against bosses) with PvP as an afterthought, and that's not a disgruntled opinion, that's fact. | ||
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Haydin
United States1481 Posts
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arctics86
Germany797 Posts
On June 28 2011 17:44 Gurgl wrote: Here is a nice summary of some Quakeprizes that haven't been paid http://www.playquake.com/columns/2011/06/prizes/ I've heard from other sources aswell. The best CS team in the world lately, Ukranians NaVi, still haven't received their prize money from IEM S4. This is common knowledge in the CS world. Not paying out money is obviously weak, but your comment is too harsh nevertheless. I'm not aware of any professional who's avoiding IEM because of this. There are only three foreign organisations who host multiple big SC2 offline events, so there's no oversaturation for my taste. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
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DisaFear
Australia4074 Posts
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