This isn't going to turn into another LoL vs (all other games apparently) thread. You can speak your mind about the selection of games but keep it civil.
The Electronic Sports League has announced their sixth season of the Intel Extreme Masters. The sixth season will be StarCraft II , Counter-Strike 1.6 and League of Legends, while Quake Live was removed.
In the announcement made on the IEM website, ESL states that these three games will travel to five different countries. The season with feature a total prize purse of $635,000, with the detailed breakdown yet to be announced.
What?!?! They removed Quake Live in favor or LoL? You have to be kidding me T_T I was never a Quake player myself but I loved to watch QL tournaments when they appear at DH and IEM. That's really sad and I believe a big mistake by them. LoL is not a game that's here to stay, its gameplay is poor and it's no e-sport, only reason it's big is because it's free-to-play. I could see Dota2 taking a spot when it comes out, they should wait for that instead.
Quake (and Counter-Strike) are the games that created the term eSports in the first place - not Korean Starcraft. The Quake series has had consistent tournament since 1997 when Thresh won John Carmack's ferrari. It deserves to stay.
On June 27 2011 23:25 Slasher wrote: Quake removed - you are DEAD to me Carmac.
Quake (and Counter-Strike) are the games that created the term eSports in the first place - not Korean Starcraft. The Quake series has had consistent tournament since 1997 when Thresh won John Carmack's ferrari. It deserves to stay.
u re right, but quake have small community (now) to make a esports global event around the world.
at the end of the day people are going to do what makes them the most money. quake is a great game but it is just dying and really it was inevitable. I would much rather see QL then shitty LoL
On June 27 2011 23:22 labbe wrote: WHAT? LoL instead of QL? What is happening to this world...
Not much really, money rules the world today and guess what Riot has to spare. Still a sad thing to happen, I really like watching QL
Yeah, well I mean... I never really understood these Dota-games as an Esport. I don't find them entertaining to watch at all. They are fun to play and all, but to watch? No. Maybe that's just me though.
well quake is a really fascinating game and i love to see some ql matches from time to time but i guess u have to go where the viewers go.... LoL season 1 finals had about 200k viewers at the same time
i don't really know if riot is pouring money to get LoL into IEM but with the Season 1 Final they certainly did a great job of promoting ESPORTS to their own playerbase ( which is pretty big) and i'm pretty sure that they will pull the casual LoL players into IEM as well
On June 27 2011 23:27 Atlasy wrote: :D Not continents, countries! So i guess Germany, French, Spain, Poland aaanndd i dont know, hopefuly Hungary Edit: Ukraine
I bet there will be atleast one stop in Asia and atleast one stop in America like the last time. Germany is a pretty safe bet tho, IEM Hannover was amazing with such a huge crowd.
On June 27 2011 23:31 Der_Magen wrote: well quake is a really fascinating game and i love to see some ql matches from time to time but i guess u have to go where the viewers go.... LoL season 1 finals had about 200k viewers at the same time
Yes. But why? Because they inject the stream in the game client. If blizz do this the same way, maybe starcraft 2 reach 500 000 if the WOW client gets the stream also
On June 27 2011 23:27 zeru wrote: Sadly, they take in the games that are most popular. QL isnt popular. It's understandable. LoL is huge.
LoL might be "huge" but it's no esport, SC, CS and Quake all have been around for a long time, they are all great games that are established as esports. LoL is a poorly made mod of the original Dota with bad, unbalanced gameplay that is no where near observer friendly but worst of all - it won't be around in the longrun. For e-sports it's better to have a few games that stay and develop rather then having games come in and out all the time. If they really wanted Dota they should have waited for Dota2 (by Valve) coming out this year - it can truly be the one Dota game to unite them all and create an esport out of it.
LoL is in cause they don't need to search for sponsors cause Riot the company behind LoL is promoting this game so hard they will probably pay the whole pricemoney of LoL
On June 27 2011 23:31 Der_Magen wrote: well quake is a really fascinating game and i love to see some ql matches from time to time but i guess u have to go where the viewers go.... LoL season 1 finals had about 200k viewers at the same time
Yes. But why? Because they inject the stream in the game client. If blizz do this the same way, maybe starcraft 2 reach 500 000 if the WOW client gets the stream also
actually, the stream itself wasnt playing on the game client, it was just a link that opened to the riot website which had the stream on it. only those who were actually watching that stream, on various embeds, would count as viewers. the same stream was embedded on lots of websites though, so they could've picked up viewers that way. Either way though, LoL still got lots of viewers, far more viewers than SC2, and thats something we should respect.
edit: you also have to remember that the prize pool at dreamhack for LoL was $100,000, and thats dollars, not euros. thats still divided among the highest ranking teams and the players, but its still a lot of money that should'nt be taken lightly
QL is probably past its shelf life; harsh as that sounds. But then Broodwar has mainly gone the same way and that's an incredible esports too. Not that I think LoL is a particularly fitting replacement but they've done a great job of selling it as an ESport; as the guy above me mentioned. I'm glad it's an RTS though. Looking to the future that could be great.
Finally im really glad that our passion is growing at this rate, league of legends has by far most viewers on streams so its smart to put it on main stage. ESL is helping our main goal which is Esports to become huge.
On June 27 2011 23:20 iG.Zeep wrote: yea wtf LoL replacing quake live? omfg u got to be fucking kidding me, rofl... thats so sadly fukin pathetic T_T
I'd tell you to calm down, but you're already banned. xD
Well the decision about removing QL was discussed on Live on three last week as far as I remember. I just had no return on the investment. And LoL had 200k online viewers on Dreamhack Summer. QL is wtfold and the scene is nowhere near expanding or even being stable, while LoL is a new game growing rappidly. Not that hard to understand the decision in it.
Anyway, IEM always had great value in it. Hope to see some good games!
On June 27 2011 23:31 Der_Magen wrote: well quake is a really fascinating game and i love to see some ql matches from time to time but i guess u have to go where the viewers go.... LoL season 1 finals had about 200k viewers at the same time
Yes. But why? Because they inject the stream in the game client. If blizz do this the same way, maybe starcraft 2 reach 500 000 if the WOW client gets the stream also
actually, the stream itself wasnt playing on the game client, it was just a link that opened to the riot website which had the stream on it. only those who were actually watching that stream, on various embeds, would count as viewers. the same stream was embedded on lots of websites though, so they could've picked up viewers that way. Either way though, LoL still got lots of viewers, far more viewers than SC2, and thats something we should respect.
I gots no respect for LOL It's like poker: where good SC players go to die.
I think there will be less interest between the scenes with IEM using these games. Not many people from another game are very likely to turn on a CS stream. Likewise I think most SC2 players either already play LOL or just dont care to indulge because DOTA clones suck. I think It kind of shows in the screenshots their using for marketing all showing SC2. But, IEM will be awesome regardless if only for SC2. Cant Wait!
On the one hand i am suprised that they removed one of the most skillfull games from IEM. On the other hand, looking from a marketing perspective, it might be the better thing for IEM. Judging from the Dreamhack Stream, LoL draws a LOT of viewers, at least via stream, compared to QL and even SC2. Might be that Intel also had a word to say there, cause they sponsor the whole event series.
Sad to see the oldest of ESPORTS leave one of the mainstages of broadcasting T_T
I think the inclusion of LoL is both smart and necessary.
As a Starcraft fan, watching LoL does not seem as exciting or even as easy to follow, but no one can really question the game's popularity.
At the end of the day, e-sports doesn't stop with Starcraft. If, through LoL's inclusion, we get more people watching ESL, or MLG, or what-have-you, we're essentially breathing life straight into the scene.
More games, more viewers, more growth. I'm stoked for this IEM circuit.
I like Quake, watching a stream makes me dizzy... But i actually every time wondered why it actually was still in tournaments with that small of a community? I'm kinda sad that it's gone now but understand it completly.
But why LoL? Is there seriously no better alternative at the moment? WTF?
On June 27 2011 23:31 Der_Magen wrote: well quake is a really fascinating game and i love to see some ql matches from time to time but i guess u have to go where the viewers go.... LoL season 1 finals had about 200k viewers at the same time
Yes. But why? Because they inject the stream in the game client. If blizz do this the same way, maybe starcraft 2 reach 500 000 if the WOW client gets the stream also
actually, the stream itself wasnt playing on the game client, it was just a link that opened to the riot website which had the stream on it. only those who were actually watching that stream, on various embeds, would count as viewers. the same stream was embedded on lots of websites though, so they could've picked up viewers that way. Either way though, LoL still got lots of viewers, far more viewers than SC2, and thats something we should respect.
I gots no respect for LOL It's like poker: where good SC players go to die.
I think there will be less interest between the scenes with IEM using these games. Not many people from another game are very likely to turn on a CS stream. Likewise I think most SC2 players either already play LOL or just dont care to indulge because DOTA clones suck. I think It kind of shows in the screenshots their using for marketing all showing SC2. But, IEM will be awesome regardless if only for SC2. Cant Wait!
and yet loads of people still watch both things. you dont have to like it, but you still have to acknowledge that more people watched LoL (and poker i guess) than SC2. Dreamhack showed that loads of people watched LoL because it was a unique thing, and they advertised it really well on their website, game client, facebook etc etc, whereas i have to get all my sc2 tournament info from TL, but this is mainly a dev. problem, not a game one. I think when the next IEM comes around you'll see even more people watching both sc2 and LoL
I don't hate LoL, but QL is so much more competitive and fun to watch (IMO). My guess is that they wanted to add some variety, since CS and QL are both FPS. Now they have 1 RTS, 1FPS, and 1 of whatever genre LoL is. (MOBA? lol)
I dont understand why so surprised, quake is already remove of WCG and ESWC, and now ESL, so no quake in "the big three". The game is more dead than live in global esports events since years ago.
On June 27 2011 23:59 Velr wrote: Quake Live has like no community?
I like Quake, watching a stream makes me dizzy... But i actually every time wondered why it actually was still in tournaments with that small of a community? I'm kinda sad that it's gone now but understand it completly.
But why LoL? Is there seriously no better alternative at the moment? WTF?
LoL attracts most viewers. Not sure what else they would or even could pick.
Sure LoL is free, but don't you have to like buy heroes and items in LoL to not get raped in games when the skill level is higher? If so, it feels kinda wierd to have "esport game" where you are forced to buy shit to play on the same terms as the others.
Like in WoW when it was a "esport game", it fucking sucked shit because some teams had the best items etc.
On June 28 2011 00:09 Termit wrote: Sure LoL is free, but don't you have to like buy heroes and items in LoL to not get raped in games when the skill level is higher? If so, it feels kinda wierd to have "esport game" where you are forced to buy shit to play on the same terms as the others.
Like in WoW when it was a "esport game", it fucking sucked shit because some teams had the best items etc.
it's not that bad... there is a ingame currency that u get for playing the game with which you can buy champions and runes and stuff...( the only thing you would need to pay for are skins..)
On June 27 2011 23:25 Slasher wrote: Quake removed - you are DEAD to me Carmac.
Quake (and Counter-Strike) are the games that created the term eSports in the first place - not Korean Starcraft. The Quake series has had consistent tournament since 1997 when Thresh won John Carmack's ferrari. It deserves to stay.
While I agree that it sucks that QL isn't in anymore, why is there no QL in MLG
On June 28 2011 00:09 Termit wrote: Sure LoL is free, but don't you have to like buy heroes and items in LoL to not get raped in games when the skill level is higher? If so, it feels kinda wierd to have "esport game" where you are forced to buy shit to play on the same terms as the others.
Like in WoW when it was a "esport game", it fucking sucked shit because some teams had the best items etc.
Well the money isn't really an argument, take SC2, you cant even play without paying, and for the price of sc2 in LoL you get more than enough stuff to be competitive, this and the fact that you can get any non cosmetic item by playing the game, even if it takes quite a bit of time.
That said I agree that even if I barely ever played Quake, and spent quite a few hours on LoL i'd watch a Quake stream over a LoL stream any day. But well, i guess they show the games that attracts the most viewers.
I don't really like LoL, but who cares? The game there could be Barbie's Horse Adventures and it would make no difference to us, who presumably are watching for SC2. If people want to watch LoL then let them, and clearly a lot of people do.
I am happy with the addition of LoL, I really enjoyed the games during Dreamhack so that should be awesome, I am dissapointed with the removal of quake live though, but that is most likely due to the small amount of viewers it gets.
On June 28 2011 00:09 Termit wrote: Sure LoL is free, but don't you have to like buy heroes and items in LoL to not get raped in games when the skill level is higher? If so, it feels kinda wierd to have "esport game" where you are forced to buy shit to play on the same terms as the others.
Like in WoW when it was a "esport game", it fucking sucked shit because some teams had the best items etc.
You can buy EVERYTHING in the game BUT skins (which are just for show) with in game points, which you get by playing.
Ofcourse if you are lazy you can buy all that shit with money.
WoW was simply a flawed E-sport due to the imbalanced nature in team compositions and things such as RNG.
On June 28 2011 00:09 Termit wrote: Sure LoL is free, but don't you have to like buy heroes and items in LoL to not get raped in games when the skill level is higher? If so, it feels kinda wierd to have "esport game" where you are forced to buy shit to play on the same terms as the others.
Like in WoW when it was a "esport game", it fucking sucked shit because some teams had the best items etc.
there is a wide selection of characters that are free, and this group is changed around every week to give people an opportunity to try lots of different champions, there is still a wide variety of characters but for the most part they arent really used let alone bought. there are no items that the player is required to buy to play, the only things that you might consider buying are new characters, which isnt necessary, or different character skins, which is just pointless.
Well, LoL gets 100k+ views by embedding their stream into the game, which makes their championship look big. <_< It's a shame that a skillfull game like QL got removed and replaced by an imbalanced game just to bring them more money. If they removed QL for BLC, it would be understandable..
On June 28 2011 00:25 Hoon wrote: Well, LoL gets 100k+ views by embedding their stream into the game, which makes their championship look big. <_< It's a shame that a skillfull game like QL got removed and replaced by an imbalanced game just to bring them more money. If they removed QL for BLC, it would be understandable..
They don't embed anything, it's a picture hyperlink and if you click it it opens the webpage with the stream, if you don't click nothing happens.
Also, every MOBA is imbalanced because of having like 100 different champions, hell even BLC is imbalanced. LoL balance is actually pretty good compared to both HoN and DotA.
On June 27 2011 23:31 Der_Magen wrote: well quake is a really fascinating game and i love to see some ql matches from time to time but i guess u have to go where the viewers go.... LoL season 1 finals had about 200k viewers at the same time
Yes. But why? Because they inject the stream in the game client. If blizz do this the same way, maybe starcraft 2 reach 500 000 if the WOW client gets the stream also
actually, the stream itself wasnt playing on the game client, it was just a link that opened to the riot website which had the stream on it. only those who were actually watching that stream, on various embeds, would count as viewers. the same stream was embedded on lots of websites though, so they could've picked up viewers that way. Either way though, LoL still got lots of viewers, far more viewers than SC2, and thats something we should respect.
I gots no respect for LOL It's like poker: where good SC players go to die.
I think there will be less interest between the scenes with IEM using these games. Not many people from another game are very likely to turn on a CS stream. Likewise I think most SC2 players either already play LOL or just dont care to indulge because DOTA clones suck. I think It kind of shows in the screenshots their using for marketing all showing SC2. But, IEM will be awesome regardless if only for SC2. Cant Wait!
and yet loads of people still watch both things. you dont have to like it, but you still have to acknowledge that more people watched LoL (and poker i guess) than SC2. Dreamhack showed that loads of people watched LoL because it was a unique thing, and they advertised it really well on their website, game client, facebook etc etc, whereas i have to get all my sc2 tournament info from TL, but this is mainly a dev. problem, not a game one. I think when the next IEM comes around you'll see even more people watching both sc2 and LoL
More people watching LOL than SC2 at one event doesn't make it a legitimate esport for me or I'd imagine for a sponsor (Though there's been plenty of buildup showing a sponser can expect a ROI from sponsoring a major LOL tourney). From what I know about LOL players many of them don't have a huge interest in the game at a competitive level. There isn't the same star value and hype around an LOL competiotion as there is in SC2 and catupulting it over more deserving games in the name of money for events now now as opposed to possible ROI later through giving better games time to grow simply makes me sad that the definition of ESPORTS seems to be games that make money as opposed to games that are established, competitive and fun to watch.
BTW SC2 tourney info is displayed by Blizzard in a menu on your welcome screen when you log onto SC2. I personally have Starcraft 2 liked on Facebook so before every tournament and whenever they make a balance announement I'm notified before its even posted on TL. Not to mention wellplayed and SCreddit. I dont think It's likely that another game has tourney info as easily accessible as Blizzard makes SC2.
On June 27 2011 23:59 Velr wrote: Quake Live has like no community?
I like Quake, watching a stream makes me dizzy... But i actually every time wondered why it actually was still in tournaments with that small of a community? I'm kinda sad that it's gone now but understand it completly.
But why LoL? Is there seriously no better alternative at the moment? WTF?
LoL attracts most viewers. Not sure what else they would or even could pick.
They didn't pick LoL because of the viewers factor, but because Riot (LoL's producer) spends ton of money in advertising and promoting. Mine is just an assumption, most likely to be the truth.
On June 28 2011 00:25 Hoon wrote: Well, LoL gets 100k+ views by embedding their stream into the game, which makes their championship look big. <_< It's a shame that a skillfull game like QL got removed and replaced by an imbalanced game just to bring them more money. If they removed QL for BLC, it would be understandable..
They don't embed anything, it's a picture hyperlink and if you click it it opens the webpage with the stream, if you don't click nothing happens.
Also, every MOBA is imbalanced because of having like 100 different champions, hell even BLC is imbalanced. LoL balance is actually pretty good compared to both HoN and DotA.
Meh I've heard they put a stream inside the game for Dreamhack. :p I've never played HoN, but I think that LoL is more imba than DotA, just because they keep adding more and more heroes to the game. It's really hard to keep it balanced when they keep changing their game. <_<
On June 27 2011 23:59 Velr wrote: Quake Live has like no community?
I like Quake, watching a stream makes me dizzy... But i actually every time wondered why it actually was still in tournaments with that small of a community? I'm kinda sad that it's gone now but understand it completly.
But why LoL? Is there seriously no better alternative at the moment? WTF?
LoL attracts most viewers. Not sure what else they would or even could pick.
They didn't pick LoL because of the viewers factor, but because Riot (LoL's producer) spends ton of money in advertising and promoting. Mine is just an assumption, most likely to be the truth.
Less than 10k views on QL IEM streams makes both arguments viable.
On June 28 2011 00:25 Hoon wrote: Well, LoL gets 100k+ views by embedding their stream into the game, which makes their championship look big. <_< It's a shame that a skillfull game like QL got removed and replaced by an imbalanced game just to bring them more money. If they removed QL for BLC, it would be understandable..
They don't embed anything, it's a picture hyperlink and if you click it it opens the webpage with the stream, if you don't click nothing happens.
Also, every MOBA is imbalanced because of having like 100 different champions, hell even BLC is imbalanced. LoL balance is actually pretty good compared to both HoN and DotA.
Meh I've heard they put a stream inside the game for Dreamhack. :p I've never played HoN, but I think that LoL is more imba than DotA, just because they keep adding more and more heroes to the game. It's really hard to keep it balanced when they keep changing their game. <_<
Afaik the same is true for HoN. Dota is basically not endorsed by anybody, so until DotA 2 comes out, for this style of game, LoL or HoN are the way to go. And LoL seems to have a bigger following.
Team liquid should pick up the team liquid team that was formed by a few people on this forum.
http://www.nationalesl.com/us/news/162720/ number 6 team in america along side teams like completity and they're just a scrum team that meets on a sc2 forum? TL could probably explode again with a third main forum for things.
QL has the same 3 people winning every single tournament ever. Rapha, Cypher, Coollerr or w/e. Especially when the overall popularity of the game is declining, having such a stagnant core of top players makes it very uninteresting.
On June 27 2011 23:59 Velr wrote: Quake Live has like no community?
I like Quake, watching a stream makes me dizzy... But i actually every time wondered why it actually was still in tournaments with that small of a community? I'm kinda sad that it's gone now but understand it completly.
But why LoL? Is there seriously no better alternative at the moment? WTF?
LoL attracts most viewers. Not sure what else they would or even could pick.
They didn't pick LoL because of the viewers factor, but because Riot (LoL's producer) spends ton of money in advertising and promoting. Mine is just an assumption, most likely to be the truth.
now heres the real tricky part. Riot isn't spending all that money beacuse they don't have it they're so new as a studio they can't afford a 100k tourney and all the costs of shipping 6 teams and getting a place there at dreamhack. Its activision though blizzard thats bankrolling lol and its probably going to keep getting crazier and crazier as time goes on.
On June 27 2011 23:31 Der_Magen wrote: well quake is a really fascinating game and i love to see some ql matches from time to time but i guess u have to go where the viewers go.... LoL season 1 finals had about 200k viewers at the same time
Yes. But why? Because they inject the stream in the game client. If blizz do this the same way, maybe starcraft 2 reach 500 000 if the WOW client gets the stream also
actually, the stream itself wasnt playing on the game client, it was just a link that opened to the riot website which had the stream on it. only those who were actually watching that stream, on various embeds, would count as viewers. the same stream was embedded on lots of websites though, so they could've picked up viewers that way. Either way though, LoL still got lots of viewers, far more viewers than SC2, and thats something we should respect.
I gots no respect for LOL It's like poker: where good SC players go to die.
I think there will be less interest between the scenes with IEM using these games. Not many people from another game are very likely to turn on a CS stream. Likewise I think most SC2 players either already play LOL or just dont care to indulge because DOTA clones suck. I think It kind of shows in the screenshots their using for marketing all showing SC2. But, IEM will be awesome regardless if only for SC2. Cant Wait!
and yet loads of people still watch both things. you dont have to like it, but you still have to acknowledge that more people watched LoL (and poker i guess) than SC2. Dreamhack showed that loads of people watched LoL because it was a unique thing, and they advertised it really well on their website, game client, facebook etc etc, whereas i have to get all my sc2 tournament info from TL, but this is mainly a dev. problem, not a game one. I think when the next IEM comes around you'll see even more people watching both sc2 and LoL
More people watching LOL than SC2 at one event doesn't make it a legitimate esport for me or I'd imagine for a sponsor (Though there's been plenty of buildup showing a sponser can expect a ROI from sponsoring a major LOL tourney). From what I know about LOL players many of them don't have a huge interest in the game at a competitive level. There isn't the same star value and hype around an LOL competiotion as there is in SC2 and catupulting it over more deserving games in the name of money for events now now as opposed to possible ROI later through giving better games time to grow simply makes me sad that the definition of ESPORTS seems to be games that make money as opposed to games that are established, competitive and fun to watch.
BTW SC2 tourney info is displayed by Blizzard in a menu on your welcome screen when you log onto SC2. I personally have Starcraft 2 liked on Facebook so before every tournament and whenever they make a balance announement I'm notified before its even posted on TL. Not to mention wellplayed and SCreddit. I dont think It's likely that another game has tourney info as easily accessible as Blizzard makes SC2.
it is very sad, but its the way the world works. companies arent going to give the light of day to a particular game if it isnt popular or worth the money, just look at mlg, last year starcraft was just another game, but because of its exploding popularity theyre giving more stage time, more money and now its set to overtake the already established franchises like COD and Halo, and with any sport people = money. and with the growth of the viewership comes the growth of the personalities, and peoples favourite players emerging, and the growth of the scene in general. this might not happen, LoL might do a WoW and sink in a year, or overtake SC2, who knows? who cares? not me, because ill still be watching SC2, but its still something to consider.
i know sc2 is advertised well, but the point i was making was that LoL doesnt really have a community like TL, as far as im aware, or if there is it probably isnt on the same scale as TL, again if it is then i apologise for making sweeping statments. but the fact still remains that the LoL finals, which i watched with my friends over skype, still got 200k viewers, by advertising well, and these are the types of numbers that appeal to the business types.
On June 28 2011 00:25 Hoon wrote: Well, LoL gets 100k+ views by embedding their stream into the game, which makes their championship look big. <_< It's a shame that a skillfull game like QL got removed and replaced by an imbalanced game just to bring them more money. If they removed QL for BLC, it would be understandable..
They don't embed anything, it's a picture hyperlink and if you click it it opens the webpage with the stream, if you don't click nothing happens.
Also, every MOBA is imbalanced because of having like 100 different champions, hell even BLC is imbalanced. LoL balance is actually pretty good compared to both HoN and DotA.
Meh I've heard they put a stream inside the game for Dreamhack. :p I've never played HoN, but I think that LoL is more imba than DotA, just because they keep adding more and more heroes to the game. It's really hard to keep it balanced when they keep changing their game. <_<
Afaik the same is true for HoN. Dota is basically not endorsed by anybody, so until DotA 2 comes out, for this style of game, LoL or HoN are the way to go. And LoL seems to have a bigger following.
LoL has a bigger following because it is F2P and has a huge advertising. See what Valve did to TF2? The game was dying, they already have in-game transactions, so they just made their game F2P. It will keep the game alive for at least 1 more year. More than enough to get DotA 2 going.
I feel so sad that Funncon doesn't advertise BLC enough. If BLC was hyped as much as LoL was, it would get so many followers. Specially because it's a great e-sports game. TT
On June 28 2011 00:41 CoR wrote: thank god no more quake rly not understand that game so bad grafic so bad gameplay cant understand it was still in
i am looking for this event and hope that the sc2 part will be as great as mlg or dreamhack
Quake is a game that you can't understand by just watching it a couple of times. You have to try and play it for a while, then you get what's going on on the streams. But once you do, it is as exciting as watching any SC2 stream. It's a tactical FPS game. If you ever try it, you will be addicted. :p Also, gameplay is perfect, graphics doesn't really matter of a e-sport. D:
On June 27 2011 23:17 TArujo wrote: i feel so bad they removed Quake Live to replace it with League of Legends -.-
bah atleast we have sc2
I play LoL and I'm still pretty sad. Used to play original quake with my family and watching quake live in between sc was great fun, shame they couldn't keep both. At least we still have Joe commentating, even if its not on quake any more xD.
Isnt it weird that there is only one strategy game (maybe 3 if you count war3 and scbw that are dying) representing the whole genre in the e-sports scene?
I can't understand why no other company had taken the effort to create a competitive RTS before blizzard released SC2. Its a great game and I love it, but I think some competition would make it even better.
On June 27 2011 23:33 clusen wrote: I bet there will be atleast one stop in Asia and atleast one stop in America like the last time. Germany is a pretty safe bet tho, IEM Hannover was amazing with such a huge crowd.
On June 28 2011 00:45 Tidus Mino wrote: Germany, France, Britain, Sweden, Ukraine is my bet
July 28th-31st = Weekend of ChinaJoy fare (As in 2010 Global Challenge Shanghai) It's only 5 weeks to go, so we can pretty much count this out.
August 17th - 21st = Week of Gamescom (As in 2010 Global Challenge Cologne) October 8th - 15th = Week of Gitex Dubai fare (As in 2009 Global Challenge Dubai) These two look much more promising.
With an NA final (US?) and an EU final (Ukraine again?), we are pretty much up for a surprise for the grand finals. Or maybe NA/EU finals will get switched? Carmac, need more input! :p
League of legends is a horrible game to spectate, you could never have played QL and understand what was going on, LoL is a good game but it's nowhere near as skillful as QL. Really hope ESL don't start phasing QL out of the other tournies.
On June 28 2011 00:41 CoR wrote: thank god no more quake rly not understand that game so bad grafic so bad gameplay cant understand it was still in
i am looking for this event and hope that the sc2 part will be as great as mlg or dreamhack
Oh you , sad that you dismiss a game because of the graphics... The gameplay is one of the best in whatever shooter, really sad they removed it, such a great series of games. Psyched for sc2, but, again, really sad that I can't watch some QL. Especially since IEM was one of the few big tournaments that still incorporated it.
On June 28 2011 00:46 Laids wrote: League of legends is a horrible game to spectate, you could never have played QL and understand what was going on, LoL is a good game but it's nowhere near as skillful as QL. Really hope ESL don't start phasing QL out of the other tournies.
Agree here, it might have a giant fanbase, but spectator-wise? I've never played LoL, but I tried to watch it at DH, I just couldn't follow it at all, no explanation either, which was usually the case with QL. I just don't see it as a better game for the spectators, or just a better game in general. But hey, Riot has the money, and we all know what rules the world ;(.
I hardly play Quake (and play a lot of LoL) but this is disappointing to say the least. Really surprised they went this route because the two games are so distinct from each other. I enjoyed watching some QL from time to time and IEM was the only time I ever really got to see it since it was so readily available during those weekends.
Oh well, IEM is always awesome. Should be a good season.
On June 27 2011 23:59 Velr wrote: Quake Live has like no community?
I like Quake, watching a stream makes me dizzy... But i actually every time wondered why it actually was still in tournaments with that small of a community? I'm kinda sad that it's gone now but understand it completly.
But why LoL? Is there seriously no better alternative at the moment? WTF?
LoL attracts most viewers. Not sure what else they would or even could pick.
They didn't pick LoL because of the viewers factor, but because Riot (LoL's producer) spends ton of money in advertising and promoting. Mine is just an assumption, most likely to be the truth.
now heres the real tricky part. Riot isn't spending all that money beacuse they don't have it they're so new as a studio they can't afford a 100k tourney and all the costs of shipping 6 teams and getting a place there at dreamhack. Its activision though blizzard thats bankrolling lol and its probably going to keep getting crazier and crazier as time goes on.
do you mind giving me a link where you got these info? i wasn't aware of it until you posted it. If this is actually true, i don't get why activision went for supporting LoL instead of HoN, which is a game much more similar to DotA. it could be the F2P, and the fact that the gfx recalls a lot of other F2P mmorpg games (so that the game is much more newcomers friendly), but i still have doubts about the whole thing.
about BLC, i think it is a game that lacks depth. its limit to a 3v3 match, with small maps and extreme fast actions which bring to a confusing exchange of effects and explosions on the screen. at least this is what it felt to me when i watched a bunch of casted games at DHS. but i admit that every game at the beginning feels like it, so it could just be a lack of knowledge by my side.
No QL sucks so bad, I used to find cs and cod okay to watch while i still played/followed it but as is Quake is the only fps i can really watch.
On top of that i don't think i've lasted more than a few min on any lol/dota/hon stream or whatever, it's fun to silly around in but as a spectator sport it makes about as much sense as wow imo.
Lol numbers at DH will have skyrocketed even if it's "just a link " from their game client. Imagine all the bronzies who'd watch sc2 there if it got linked ingame. ~94% of sc2 doesn't know wtf tl.net is let alone follow it, same for quake (and it's respective community site(s)). It's actually really weird they don't do it for more games, that is add a really accessible stream link to their game menu for high profile tourneys.
There is so much misinformation concerning LoL, even in this thread. You guys should try it out before criticizing. And yeah, game gets 200k viewers because its terrible from spectator point of view....that makes sens yes?
On June 28 2011 00:38 Xeris wrote: QL has the same 3 people winning every single tournament ever. Rapha, Cypher, Coollerr or w/e. Especially when the overall popularity of the game is declining, having such a stagnant core of top players makes it very uninteresting.
I don't really buy 'it's too hard to understand from a spectator's perspective' criticism of LoL. Consider the other games there - SC2 is doubtlessly just as confusing to anyone with little/no experience of it. Similarly, everyone here is going to think QL/CS are much easier to understand, since they've inspired most FPS's that have come after it, and as gamers we're accustomed to the shooter genres that have been influenced by these already, so we can see those being played at a high level and not be too terribly confused because we already understand the fundamentals of the genre. At this point, what LoL really needs is some people equivalent to HD or Husky, who can do exciting coverage with getting bogged down in the specific depths and detailed subtleties to draw people in who can then move onto the more in-depth coverage, as Day[9] does in SC2.
On June 28 2011 01:28 Iskusstvo wrote: At this point, what LoL really needs is some people equivalent to HD or Husky, who can do exciting coverage with getting bogged down in the specific depths and detailed subtleties to draw people in who can then move onto the more in-depth coverage, as Day[9] does in SC2.
Can't really do that with no observer mode and no replays. Yes, supposedly observer mode will "be out soon" but they have been saying that for a year and I don't enjoy having smoke blown up my ass.
On June 28 2011 01:09 Silvanel wrote: There is so much misinformation concerning LoL, even in this thread. You guys should try it out before criticizing. And yeah, game gets 200k viewers because its terrible from spectator point of view....that makes sens yes?
It's fine HoN will phase it out shortly. Massive league coming and HoN can affort literally like 10x what Riot can afford, so expect a prize fund of like $500,000. The creators said in an interview "we have something huge planned, in 3 months you won't even remember what LoL is"
So doesn't seem like a good move dropping the first ever esports title, a series that has survived 15 year and is still by far the most interesting game to watch from a spectator view and instead replacing it with a new game that most likely won't last, especially with Dota 2, Blizzard's Dota, HoN and Rise of Titans, it really doesn't seem like a good decision on their behalf.
Also will miss watching QL, IEM was the only event I got round to seeing it
For all of you fans who aren't aware of the LoL community here in NA and EU, even some in SEA, here are some links to team sites and some have stream-lists (just like TL!) where there are thousands of people watching high-level players (and not so high-level players) just do matchmaking just like we do here at TL for SC2!
LoL is VERY popular right now, in fact, every single one of my friends who plays PC games has tried it and i'd say a good 40-60% of those still play casually.
You can even check out any of the forums at the League of Legends site and you will see there is as much controversy over pro players and tournament results as you do at most E-sports sites.
Heck, even general interest sites like reddit and 4chan constantly have threads going about LoL strategy and player discussion.
League of Legends is a growing e-sport and although Riot IS pumping money into its success, the fans are here and they are excited. Regardless of the methods being used, the popularity of the game cannot be discounted.
Riot is also owned by a large Chinese corporation, with a large amount of capital to invest in this highly popular game. (LoL just came out of Beta in Asia region a little while ago, becoming VERY popular).
What Riot doesn't realize is that no amount of money thrown around can turn a skilless non competitive game into a legit e-sport game. Maybe if they spent the money on actually improving the game instead of trying to make the game seem better than it is
On June 28 2011 01:09 Silvanel wrote: There is so much misinformation concerning LoL, even in this thread. You guys should try it out before criticizing. And yeah, game gets 200k viewers because its terrible from spectator point of view....that makes sens yes?
Yes, it makes sense. If you can't enjoy a game without playing it on a certain level it is bad from a spectator point of view. That applies to LoL or WoW for example.
For Quake or SC2 it does not apply. I know quite a few people who enjoy watching SC2 without even owning the game.
On June 28 2011 01:38 learning wrote: For all of you fans who aren't aware of the LoL community here in NA and EU, even some in SEA, here are some links to team sites and some have stream-lists (just like TL!) where there are thousands of people watching high-level players (and not so high-level players) just do matchmaking just like we do here at TL for SC2!
LoL is VERY popular right now, in fact, every single one of my friends who plays PC games has tried it and i'd say a good 40-60% of those still play casually.
You can even check out any of the forums at the League of Legends site and you will see there is as much controversy over pro players and tournament results as you do at most E-sports sites.
Heck, even general interest sites like reddit and 4chan constantly have threads going about LoL strategy and player discussion.
League of Legends is a growing e-sport and although Riot IS pumping money into its success, the fans are here and they are excited. Regardless of the methods being used, the popularity of the game cannot be discounted.
Riot is also owned by a large Chinese corporation, with a large amount of capital to invest in this highly popular game. (LoL just came out of Beta in Asia region a little while ago, becoming VERY popular).
also, fnatic's facebook advertised one of their players streaming LoL games, Shushei, i think i his name was. i went on to see what the viewership was like, he had 4000 viewers, which would be a very good number even for a sc2 player stream, but apparently hes quite a well known player? i dont know :/
On June 28 2011 01:09 Silvanel wrote: There is so much misinformation concerning LoL, even in this thread. You guys should try it out before criticizing. And yeah, game gets 200k viewers because its terrible from spectator point of view....that makes sens yes?
Yes, it makes sense. If you can't enjoy a game without playing it on a certain level it is bad from a spectator point of view. That applies to LoL or WoW for example.
For Quake or SC2 it does not apply. I know quite a few people who enjoy watching SC2 without even owning the game.
Those are just opinions.... I've read comments of people who turned your argument by pretty much 180°, saying that they think SC2 is boring and uninteresting tow atch and LoL is much more exciting
Why all the LoL bashing? People really think it's a terrible game? Like literally ALL of my friends and more play LoL and a select few play SC2 on a regular basis with me. Only reason I don't play LoL is because I suck at DoTA type games and don't have the time or dedication to try to get good at them.
WTF. No Quake Live, a staple of FPS games for years that requires knowledge of the map, quick strategic thought and reading of your opponent for a subpar DoTA clone that removes half of the intricacies that made DoTA skillful?
On June 28 2011 01:49 JKira wrote: Why all the LoL bashing? People really think it's a terrible game? Like literally ALL of my friends and more play LoL and a select few play SC2 on a regular basis with me. Only reason I don't play LoL is because I suck at DoTA type games and don't have the time or dedication to try to get good at them.
You're missing the point. Game can be fun and a lot of people might play it but that doesn't mean that it should be pushed as an esport.
I understand why they want to develop LoL into an esport - the developers invest a lot of money into making it an esport and a lot of people play that game. While it is not that "simple" and requires tactics and teamwork, I feel that it lacks the "depth" that exist in a lot of games (even FPSs).
Its not that bad to watch LoL - you can learn from how professionals play and improve your skills.
Seeing quick live being replaced by LoL is like connect four replacing something like curling in the olympics =/
On June 28 2011 00:38 Xeris wrote: QL has the same 3 people winning every single tournament ever. Rapha, Cypher, Coollerr or w/e. Especially when the overall popularity of the game is declining, having such a stagnant core of top players makes it very uninteresting.
Flash, Jaedong... sound familiar?
That's not even a fair comparison. QL is all about 1v1 whereas PL is still huge in the BW community and so there are a lot of players that generate a ton of excitement. You have dozens of players that haven't placed top 4 in an MSL/OSL yet they play a huge role because of the team environment.
And LoL definitely has it's flaws but saying it's a terrible unskilled version of DoTA is reminiscent of the CS vs CS:S debate. Just because Riot is way ahead of HoN (for the time being at least) in it's approach to 'e-sports', doesn't mean you gotta rip on the game itself.
On June 28 2011 01:09 Silvanel wrote: There is so much misinformation concerning LoL, even in this thread. You guys should try it out before criticizing. And yeah, game gets 200k viewers because its terrible from spectator point of view....that makes sens yes?
I don't want to be a troll, but I play LoL when I want to relax because it's easy. It dont suck all your energy unlike a 30min game in sc2. I can drink a coffee, light a smoke because you dont need 150 apm. There is no multitasking, no macro, just some micro with one unit and a little decision making, like "they are 3, I'm alone, hmmkay I b". LoL is more about teamplay and compo.
In my regard LoL is a good game for causals, and that's why there are 200k viewers but nothing to do with e-sports. As I said, it's my humble opinion.
On June 28 2011 01:49 JKira wrote: Why all the LoL bashing? People really think it's a terrible game? Like literally ALL of my friends and more play LoL and a select few play SC2 on a regular basis with me. Only reason I don't play LoL is because I suck at DoTA type games and don't have the time or dedication to try to get good at them.
You're missing the point. Game can be fun and a lot of people might play it but that doesn't mean that it should be pushed as an esport.
Umm, thats one of the core parts of making something an esport. The game needs to be fun and a lot of people need to play or be willing to watch. Lol has both.
And while Riot does do a shitty job supporting the tournament scene with tech like obs mode and replays, they are willing to front money and use their beta obs mode for big tournaments.
As for skill, there is a very low physical skill ceiling in lol. There is a HUGE knowledge skill ceiling. Unlike SC2 where knowing how to do a build and executing it are on different planes, in LoL knowing how to do something is much more important than physically doing it. If anyone who says "lol is so easy I could beat any of these guys and I dont even play" are completely wrong. Any top player could dominate you in lane. And even if they started late game with a full build on both sides you would still lose simply because the pro's know what to do at all times.
On June 28 2011 01:50 Tippecanoe wrote: Considering LoL got over 20k viewers more than sc2 even it doesn't suprise me that they would remove Quake.
i thought everyone was saying that the stream counts for lol were heavily bugged by game client / own3d.tv?
Those are speculations and rumors thanks to the fact that Riot put a splash-page hyperlink for the DH tournament stream in their game client. (People thought it actually streamed in the game client and counted each player logging on their account for LoL as a viewer.... it was just a link to the webpage and only counted viewers who went to the stream...)
I'm not sure why so many people hate on LoL.. Sure its not as complex as DotA/HoN with denial and those runes in the river, but LoL has plenty of the same challenges that any MOBA does.. teamwork, finesse and micro, knowing your champion type, what items to build and when, when to gank a lane, when to push a lane, when to put wards down, when to try for big creep kills...
Everyone makes it seem like LoL takes 0 skill to play, like its some sort of Iphone App... It's a simpler version of classic DotA that allows the individuals to determine the outcome of the games rather than individual+raw luck/exploit knowledge..
I dunno, I really like playing LoL even after playing HoN and DotA, its simpler and its not a bad thing.
On June 28 2011 01:50 Tippecanoe wrote: Considering LoL got over 20k viewers more than sc2 even it doesn't suprise me that they would remove Quake.
i thought everyone was saying that the stream counts for lol were heavily bugged by game client / own3d.tv?
Those are speculations and rumors thanks to the fact that Riot put a splash-page hyperlink for the DH tournament stream in their game client. (People thought it actually streamed in the game client and counted each player logging on their account for LoL as a viewer.... it was just a link to the webpage and only counted viewers who went to the stream...)
I'm not sure why so many people hate on LoL.. Sure its not as complex as DotA/HoN with denial and those runes in the river, but LoL has plenty of the same challenges that any MOBA does.. teamwork, finesse and micro, knowing your champion type, what items to build and when, when to gank a lane, when to push a lane, when to put wards down, when to try for big creep kills...
Everyone makes it seem like LoL takes 0 skill to play, like its some sort of Iphone App... It's a simpler version of classic DotA that allows the individuals to determine the outcome of the games rather than individual+raw luck/exploit knowledge..
I dunno, I really like playing LoL even after playing HoN and DotA, its simpler and its not a bad thing.
You're saying it yourself, LoL is simple, where skill doesn't really matter. So it's a bad thing to replace QL by LoL in a major e-sports tournament.
On June 28 2011 01:50 Tippecanoe wrote: Considering LoL got over 20k viewers more than sc2 even it doesn't suprise me that they would remove Quake.
i thought everyone was saying that the stream counts for lol were heavily bugged by game client / own3d.tv?
Those are speculations and rumors thanks to the fact that Riot put a splash-page hyperlink for the DH tournament stream in their game client. (People thought it actually streamed in the game client and counted each player logging on their account for LoL as a viewer.... it was just a link to the webpage and only counted viewers who went to the stream...)
I'm not sure why so many people hate on LoL.. Sure its not as complex as DotA/HoN with denial and those runes in the river, but LoL has plenty of the same challenges that any MOBA does.. teamwork, finesse and micro, knowing your champion type, what items to build and when, when to gank a lane, when to push a lane, when to put wards down, when to try for big creep kills...
Everyone makes it seem like LoL takes 0 skill to play, like its some sort of Iphone App... It's a simpler version of classic DotA that allows the individuals to determine the outcome of the games rather than individual+raw luck/exploit knowledge..
I dunno, I really like playing LoL even after playing HoN and DotA, its simpler and its not a bad thing.
You're saying it yourself, LoL is simple, where skill doesn't really matter. So it's a bad thing to replace QL by LoL in a major e-sports tournament.
he said its simpl(ER). a post above said the physical skill cap isnt as high as other games, but the knowledge cap is very high, which is a very good description. individually it isnt as strenuous as sc2, but as a 5-player game, the team play can be pretty heavy going. i regularly play with 4 other friends and theres a lot of thought that goes into the characters, builds, items, team battles, farming etc etc
On June 27 2011 23:22 labbe wrote: WHAT? LoL instead of QL? What is happening to this world...
Not much really, money rules the world today and guess what Riot has to spare. Still a sad thing to happen, I really like watching QL
Yeah, well I mean... I never really understood these Dota-games as an Esport. I don't find them entertaining to watch at all. They are fun to play and all, but to watch? No. Maybe that's just me though.
League of legends had more than 250k people watching at Dreamhack and they broke 80k for their season one qualifiers. They really put starcraft viewer numbers to shame so while you might not think LoL and other "DotA-games" aren't entertaining to watch I'd put you in the minority.
I enjoy both games personally though so I hope Warpprism has plans of supporting watching sc2 and league at the same time
On June 28 2011 01:50 Tippecanoe wrote: Considering LoL got over 20k viewers more than sc2 even it doesn't suprise me that they would remove Quake.
i thought everyone was saying that the stream counts for lol were heavily bugged by game client / own3d.tv?
Those are speculations and rumors thanks to the fact that Riot put a splash-page hyperlink for the DH tournament stream in their game client. (People thought it actually streamed in the game client and counted each player logging on their account for LoL as a viewer.... it was just a link to the webpage and only counted viewers who went to the stream...)
I'm not sure why so many people hate on LoL.. Sure its not as complex as DotA/HoN with denial and those runes in the river, but LoL has plenty of the same challenges that any MOBA does.. teamwork, finesse and micro, knowing your champion type, what items to build and when, when to gank a lane, when to push a lane, when to put wards down, when to try for big creep kills...
Everyone makes it seem like LoL takes 0 skill to play, like its some sort of Iphone App... It's a simpler version of classic DotA that allows the individuals to determine the outcome of the games rather than individual+raw luck/exploit knowledge..
I dunno, I really like playing LoL even after playing HoN and DotA, its simpler and its not a bad thing.
You're saying it yourself, LoL is simple, where skill doesn't really matter. So it's a bad thing to replace QL by LoL in a major e-sports tournament.
He said its simpler then Dota or HoN. Not that it is simple and skilless. Some people just dont understand how imensly complicated MOBA games are compared to some "e-sports" titles.
On June 27 2011 23:22 labbe wrote: WHAT? LoL instead of QL? What is happening to this world...
Not much really, money rules the world today and guess what Riot has to spare. Still a sad thing to happen, I really like watching QL
Yeah, well I mean... I never really understood these Dota-games as an Esport. I don't find them entertaining to watch at all. They are fun to play and all, but to watch? No. Maybe that's just me though.
League of legends had more than 250k people watching at Dreamhack and they broke 80k for their season one qualifiers. They really put starcraft viewer numbers to shame so while you might not think LoL and other "DotA-games" aren't entertaining to watch I'd put you in the minority.
I enjoy both games personally though so I hope Warpprism has plans of supporting watching sc2 and league at the same time
i would rather watch paint dry than lol, it might have bigger audience (its new, free, also easy for casuals) but that doesnt change its garbage esport game with almost no competitive gameplay compered to real games like QL
On June 27 2011 23:22 labbe wrote: WHAT? LoL instead of QL? What is happening to this world...
Not much really, money rules the world today and guess what Riot has to spare. Still a sad thing to happen, I really like watching QL
Yeah, well I mean... I never really understood these Dota-games as an Esport. I don't find them entertaining to watch at all. They are fun to play and all, but to watch? No. Maybe that's just me though.
League of legends had more than 250k people watching at Dreamhack and they broke 80k for their season one qualifiers. They really put starcraft viewer numbers to shame so while you might not think LoL and other "DotA-games" aren't entertaining to watch I'd put you in the minority.
I enjoy both games personally though so I hope Warpprism has plans of supporting watching sc2 and league at the same time
i would rather watch paint dry than lol, it might have bigger audience (its new, free, also easy for casuals) but that doesnt change its garbage esport game with almost no competitive gameplay compered to real games like QL
On June 27 2011 23:22 labbe wrote: WHAT? LoL instead of QL? What is happening to this world...
Not much really, money rules the world today and guess what Riot has to spare. Still a sad thing to happen, I really like watching QL
Yeah, well I mean... I never really understood these Dota-games as an Esport. I don't find them entertaining to watch at all. They are fun to play and all, but to watch? No. Maybe that's just me though.
League of legends had more than 250k people watching at Dreamhack and they broke 80k for their season one qualifiers. They really put starcraft viewer numbers to shame so while you might not think LoL and other "DotA-games" aren't entertaining to watch I'd put you in the minority.
I enjoy both games personally though so I hope Warpprism has plans of supporting watching sc2 and league at the same time
i would rather watch paint dry than lol, it might have bigger audience (its new, free, also easy for casuals) but that doesnt change its garbage esport game with almost no competitive gameplay compered to real games like QL
That's your opinion, but there are many other people who disagree with you. Old scenes are dying and new ones are rising up from their ashes. I was saying very similar things about starcraft 2 when it started killing the warcraft 3 scene, but my opinions have changed. Quake Live might be a good game, but it's just not popular anymore and it doesn't get the viewers that the newer ones do.
If League is as easy and skill less as all of you think it is go join the TL team or make your own and steal all the prize money.
l0l at all the people thinking that LoL doesnt 'deserve' to be an esport. You people are so two-faced, you say that you want to 'promote esports' with SC2, and you turn around and condemn a game you probably haven't even played because its not 'elite' enough for esports makes you a fucking hypocrite. You are legitimately saying that the people who work hard and practice this game for countless hours don't deserve anything for being the best at what they do.
I'm totally cool with you disliking LoL, hell I welcome it, tell me what you hate about it so that maybe it can become better, but saying that it doesn't deserve to be an esport just because 'it's DOTA for kiddies' is as arbitrary (and retarded) as me saying that baseball isn't a sport because its not 'competitive enough'.
What's next, CoD? If they wanted a MOBA game they should have included DoTA not LoL.
And I thought e-sports was also about having an entertaining game to watch? SC2 and QL fill that role quite easily. CS and LoL make me want to spend my time doing something else.
A friend of mine and I were talking about the differences in viewership at DH between LoL and SC2.
We came to the determination that the reason we watched the LoL stream was the team aspect.
It seems that SC2 is all about the big names and not the teams (as it was in SCBW).
We enjoyed the SCBW tourneys where teams set matchups of the players to advance. The added strategy outside of the game made the games enjoyable and more entertaining to watch.
The same can be said for LoL in that regard. It just happens in champion selection.
I like watching SC. I like watching LoL. At the moment, both of them have a huge following. I believe that both are worthy ESports titles until viewership drops to a point where they are not bringing attention to the overall scene.
I don't understand the LoL hate, shooters are the games that I doubt as eSports, they're just not much fun to watch. LoL is very fun to play and fairly fun to watch as well. It sort of feels like watching soccer to me, slow-paced with short bursts of action. Fun to watch with friends, not really something I would do on my own.
On June 28 2011 01:50 Tippecanoe wrote: Considering LoL got over 20k viewers more than sc2 even it doesn't suprise me that they would remove Quake.
i thought everyone was saying that the stream counts for lol were heavily bugged by game client / own3d.tv?
Those are speculations and rumors thanks to the fact that Riot put a splash-page hyperlink for the DH tournament stream in their game client. (People thought it actually streamed in the game client and counted each player logging on their account for LoL as a viewer.... it was just a link to the webpage and only counted viewers who went to the stream...)
I'm not sure why so many people hate on LoL.. Sure its not as complex as DotA/HoN with denial and those runes in the river, but LoL has plenty of the same challenges that any MOBA does.. teamwork, finesse and micro, knowing your champion type, what items to build and when, when to gank a lane, when to push a lane, when to put wards down, when to try for big creep kills...
Everyone makes it seem like LoL takes 0 skill to play, like its some sort of Iphone App... It's a simpler version of classic DotA that allows the individuals to determine the outcome of the games rather than individual+raw luck/exploit knowledge..
I dunno, I really like playing LoL even after playing HoN and DotA, its simpler and its not a bad thing.
You're saying it yourself, LoL is simple, where skill doesn't really matter. So it's a bad thing to replace QL by LoL in a major e-sports tournament.
he said its simpl(ER). a post above said the physical skill cap isnt as high as other games, but the knowledge cap is very high, which is a very good description. individually it isnt as strenuous as sc2, but as a 5-player game, the team play can be pretty heavy going. i regularly play with 4 other friends and theres a lot of thought that goes into the characters, builds, items, team battles, farming etc etc
The problem that most people have with LoL is that it is a simplified version of dota. There is a huge difference in skill between the top LoL players and the top HoN/dota players. Just because there are 200k people watching a stream does not make it an esport.
I reckon that if Zynga was to advertise a Farmville stream as much as Riot advertised LoL they would get approximately the same number of viewers. But just because there are a lot of viewers does not suddenly make the game a huge ESPORTS phenomena.
On June 28 2011 00:41 CoR wrote: thank god no more quake rly not understand that game so bad grafic so bad gameplay cant understand it was still in
i am looking for this event and hope that the sc2 part will be as great as mlg or dreamhack
Quake is a game that you can't understand by just watching it a couple of times. You have to try and play it for a while, then you get what's going on on the streams. But once you do, it is as exciting as watching any SC2 stream. It's a tactical FPS game. If you ever try it, you will be addicted. :p Also, gameplay is perfect, graphics doesn't really matter of a e-sport. D:
To be honest the graphics at least for me is what makes QL attractive to watch. I dont have to see a 4 pixel big person wearing camo suit getting snipped from got know where. QL you actually see the person the player is shooting at (at least most of the time). @CoR QL is easy to understand. You have armors and health bonuses. That respawn after a set time after they were piced up. Players try to time their moves around those spawn times since having more armor, health give you a slight advantage during fight. Still skill of a player >>> bonuses to health armor.
On June 28 2011 03:01 SirMilford wrote: The problem that most people have with LoL is that it is a simplified version of dota. There is a huge difference in skill between the top LoL players and the top HoN/dota players. Just because there are 200k people watching a stream does not make it an esport.
The problem that most people have with sc2 is that it is a simplified version of broodwar. There is a huge difference in skill between the top sc2 players and the top brood war players. Just because there are 200k people watching a stream does not make it an esport.
Just because something is easier doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
EDIT: This isn't my view of sc2, but I'm trying to prove a point.
I played DotA for many, many years. I played LoL for approximately 50 games. LoL SUCKS. Out of the 2 big clones of DotA (HoN and LoL), LoL is most definitely the worse game. Even when compared to other games of that type, it falls in low standards. It's really oddly paced, requires little skill, and is inferior in so many other things it's even hard to describe.
The only reason it's so wildly popular is because it's FREE, and the only reason it's DH stream got so many viewers is because of the main menu splash into the stream. However, that's not a bad thing at all. If anything, Blizz should copy this idea and put big tournament's stream into the SC2 main menu, right there in your face, include chatrooms with it as well, and you have a winner.
DotA as an e-sport was/is a blast, it requires HUGE amounts of skill and teamwork. Actually, when you see the game and see these teams like Na'Vi, E-HOME, DK, etc, perform those moves you go like "Oh yeah, that looks so fuckin easy", and then when you try it with your teammates it's an utter failure hahaha. It's so incredibly hard to reach the top in DotA it's very comparable to starcraft. LoL however, with it's odd hero movement, and most importantly, with it's incredibly strange game pace, dumbs the game down waaaay too much.
Basically, LoL is a marketing victory, it's like... junk food. It's shit, it's fast, it requires little effort, and it has large marketing around it. A huge win for the developers, a major flaw in the world for hardcore gamers .
On June 28 2011 00:38 Xeris wrote: QL has the same 3 people winning every single tournament ever. Rapha, Cypher, Coollerr or w/e. Especially when the overall popularity of the game is declining, having such a stagnant core of top players makes it very uninteresting.
Flash, Jaedong... sound familiar?
Why do you think nobody outside Korea cares about BW anymore?
On June 28 2011 00:38 Xeris wrote: QL has the same 3 people winning every single tournament ever. Rapha, Cypher, Coollerr or w/e. Especially when the overall popularity of the game is declining, having such a stagnant core of top players makes it very uninteresting.
Flash, Jaedong... sound familiar?
Why do you think nobody outside Korea cares about BW anymore?
It's not because good players keep winning.... QL also isn't declining in popularity because of the same guys doing well. I don't really understand how you can think that. It's just not a game for the new generation. It's a cruel beast that cuts you down until you eventually get to a stage where you cut other new people down. SC2 is the same only it has blizzards fancy ladder to make up for it thankfully.
On June 28 2011 01:50 Tippecanoe wrote: Considering LoL got over 20k viewers more than sc2 even it doesn't suprise me that they would remove Quake.
i thought everyone was saying that the stream counts for lol were heavily bugged by game client / own3d.tv?
Those are speculations and rumors thanks to the fact that Riot put a splash-page hyperlink for the DH tournament stream in their game client. (People thought it actually streamed in the game client and counted each player logging on their account for LoL as a viewer.... it was just a link to the webpage and only counted viewers who went to the stream...)
I'm not sure why so many people hate on LoL.. Sure its not as complex as DotA/HoN with denial and those runes in the river, but LoL has plenty of the same challenges that any MOBA does.. teamwork, finesse and micro, knowing your champion type, what items to build and when, when to gank a lane, when to push a lane, when to put wards down, when to try for big creep kills...
Everyone makes it seem like LoL takes 0 skill to play, like its some sort of Iphone App... It's a simpler version of classic DotA that allows the individuals to determine the outcome of the games rather than individual+raw luck/exploit knowledge..
I dunno, I really like playing LoL even after playing HoN and DotA, its simpler and its not a bad thing.
What the hell is exploit knowledge? Just because you don't understand the finer mechanics of dota/hon doesn't mean those who do are exploiting anything.
On June 28 2011 00:38 Xeris wrote: QL has the same 3 people winning every single tournament ever. Rapha, Cypher, Coollerr or w/e. Especially when the overall popularity of the game is declining, having such a stagnant core of top players makes it very uninteresting.
Flash, Jaedong... sound familiar?
Why do you think nobody outside Korea cares about BW anymore?
I'm going to hazard a guess that BW was in serious decline before Flash and Jaedong started winning all the StarLeagues. 2009 wasn't that long ago.
really a sad day for esports. The game which all started esports in the west is dying out no shooter after that came even close to - and as it looks like will ever be - Q3/QL
Bleh...I love LoL to death but I also loved Quake. Quake is the type of game that not only made me realize that a 1v1 FPS can be fun to watch, but it is the best FPS to watch.
LoL is now my main game, but the community is god awful and it is often a coin toss in terms of what is exciting. Quake on the other hand is always exciting...to me at least.
The only way for me to enjoy watching LoL is if the commentator really knows what he's talking about. There was a cast commentated by djwheat and some other dude, that was really good at the game, and he explained everything.. That made me enjoy the cast.
But I still prefer watching QL, even though I never played Quake. It was really fun to watch.
People really shouldn't be trying to put down LoL just because they feel it's a "casual" game; this is no WoW arena repeat, this game actually has a large viewership believe it or not.
It's easy see why QL was replaced by LoL, because their viewer count is MUCH larger even if the skill required is less. (their Dream Hack viewers were something like 200,000 concurrently<--- not a made up number, google it)
I'm happy for LoL it's amazing a game other than SC2 can bring in numbers like that.
On June 28 2011 03:01 SirMilford wrote: The problem that most people have with LoL is that it is a simplified version of dota. There is a huge difference in skill between the top LoL players and the top HoN/dota players. Just because there are 200k people watching a stream does not make it an esport.
The problem that most people have with sc2 is that it is a simplified version of broodwar. There is a huge difference in skill between the top sc2 players and the top brood war players. Just because there are 200k people watching a stream does not make it an esport.
Just because something is easier doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
EDIT: This isn't my view of sc2, but I'm trying to prove a point.
I don't think that is a fair comparison. I would say LoL is way more simplified than SC2 though. I think SC2 almost hit the perfect balance between casual friendly and highly competitive. On the other hand, LoL is way too casual friendly for me to take it seriously as a competitive game. After I play about 250ish games on LoL, I felt like I already hit my peak of skill, and that all I needed to do was learn where to ward, random meticulous things, and how to judge certain situations...but as far as actually controlling my individual champion, there didn't seem like room for improvement. And that was kind of a stupid feeling because I knew I was no pro at that game. I cannot say the same for SC2 or HoN.
Guys, really... I love Quake (played it fpr like half of my life)... but the game is so dead, just some pros are still playing.
So seriously, there is no money in it for anybody - and no matter how naive you are, obv thats not what an organizer needs - anyways, LoL suxx... But can't wait for some more awesome SC2 tourneys =)
On June 28 2011 04:08 DonKey_ wrote: People really shouldn't be trying to put down LoL just because they feel it's a "casual" game; this is no WoW arena repeat this game actually has a large viewership believe it or not.
It's easy see why QL was replaced by LoL, because their viewer count is MUCH larger even if the skill required is less. (their Dream Hack viewers were something like 200,000 concurrently<--- not a made up number, google it)
I'm happy for LoL it's amazing a game other than SC2 can bring in numbers like that.
It has nothing to do with skill, it has to do with, as you said, viewer count. Quake Live would get ~10,000 views -- maybe. LoL streams pull 200,000 consistently. There is no other logical reason why they would pull QL.
On June 27 2011 23:25 Slasher wrote: Quake removed - you are DEAD to me Carmac.
Quake (and Counter-Strike) are the games that created the term eSports in the first place - not Korean Starcraft. The Quake series has had consistent tournament since 1997 when Thresh won John Carmack's ferrari. It deserves to stay.
doesn't matter what started it, it's whats going to produce the most money at the end of the day, and tbh Quakelive is a pretty stale game, LoL is such a better game competetively
On June 28 2011 04:08 DonKey_ wrote: People really shouldn't be trying to put down LoL just because they feel it's a "casual" game; this is no WoW arena repeat, this game actually has a large viewership believe it or not.
It's easy see why QL was replaced by LoL, because their viewer count is MUCH larger even if the skill required is less. (their Dream Hack viewers were something like 200,000 concurrently<--- not a made up number, google it)
I'm happy for LoL it's amazing a game other than SC2 can bring in numbers like that.
still its sad that the greatest and most skillful fps still actively beeing playd gets removed for the joke of a game lol is. yeah many play it yeah it has a big viewership. but esports wise its not much better for me then any random needforspeed,fifa or whatever
On June 27 2011 23:25 Slasher wrote: Quake removed - you are DEAD to me Carmac.
Quake (and Counter-Strike) are the games that created the term eSports in the first place - not Korean Starcraft. The Quake series has had consistent tournament since 1997 when Thresh won John Carmack's ferrari. It deserves to stay.
While I agree that it sucks that QL isn't in anymore, why is there no QL in MLG
Good point to Slasher.... why there is no QL on mlg ?
On June 28 2011 03:01 SirMilford wrote: Just because there are 200k people watching a stream does not make it an esport.
Actually 200k people is very good.
There are teams + ppl want to watch it + it's enjoyable = e-sport ?
On June 28 2011 04:08 DonKey_ wrote: People really shouldn't be trying to put down LoL just because they feel it's a "casual" game; this is no WoW arena repeat, this game actually has a large viewership believe it or not.
It's easy see why QL was replaced by LoL, because their viewer count is MUCH larger even if the skill required is less. (their Dream Hack viewers were something like 200,000 concurrently<--- not a made up number, google it)
I'm happy for LoL it's amazing a game other than SC2 can bring in numbers like that.
QL pulls 200k viewers because all the kids who are begging there parents for the latest CoD watch it.
Sad to see QL gone, next they'll be replacing cs 1.6 with some new shitty CoD title because it pulls more viewers.
Even though I don't really watch any game besides SC2, whenever I've tuned in to QL it was always awesome because it's so fast paced and it requires a ton of skill. LoL has to be the most boring game out there right now -.-
On June 28 2011 04:08 DonKey_ wrote: People really shouldn't be trying to put down LoL just because they feel it's a "casual" game; this is no WoW arena repeat, this game actually has a large viewership believe it or not.
It's easy see why QL was replaced by LoL, because their viewer count is MUCH larger even if the skill required is less. (their Dream Hack viewers were something like 200,000 concurrently<--- not a made up number, google it)
I'm happy for LoL it's amazing a game other than SC2 can bring in numbers like that.
QL pulls 200k viewers because all the kids who are begging there parents for the latest CoD watch it.
Sad to see QL gone, next they'll be replacing cs 1.6 with some new shitty CoD title because it pulls more viewers.
People need to stop hating on LoL. If anything they should be commending LoL and Riot for getting into the IEM the way they did. The company is behind their game and are trying to make it an eSport. If more companies showed the dedication to their game that Riot does, eSports would be a lot more developed.
On June 28 2011 04:25 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: still its sad that the greatest and most skillful fps still actively beeing playd gets removed for the joke of a game lol is. yeah many play it yeah it has a big viewership. but esports wise its not much better for me then any random needforspeed,fifa or whatever
You mean Counter-Strike 1.6? Actoualy Fifa was quite good...
On June 28 2011 04:08 DonKey_ wrote: People really shouldn't be trying to put down LoL just because they feel it's a "casual" game; this is no WoW arena repeat, this game actually has a large viewership believe it or not.
It's easy see why QL was replaced by LoL, because their viewer count is MUCH larger even if the skill required is less. (their Dream Hack viewers were something like 200,000 concurrently<--- not a made up number, google it)
I'm happy for LoL it's amazing a game other than SC2 can bring in numbers like that.
still its sad that the greatest and most skillful fps still actively beeing playd gets removed for the joke of a game lol is. yeah many play it yeah it has a big viewership. but esports wise its not much better for me then any random needforspeed,fifa or whatever
I'd like to see a group of people who call LoL an "easy no skill game" play on a team against CLG or Fnatic and tell me that its a no-brainer type of game. It requires skill and cooperation just like any other competitive game.
The main difference I see between SC2 and QL compared to LoL is that in SC2 and QL are 1v1, and the teams play a background role (even in team/clan wars, its 1v1 game). In LoL its 5v5 and not everyone is going to be MORE KILLS SO EASY TO WIN.
LoL in casual play is much different from LoL in competitive play IMO
On June 28 2011 04:37 bokchoi wrote: People need to stop hating on LoL. If anything they should be commending LoL and Riot for getting into the IEM the way they did. The company is behind their game and are trying to make it an eSport. If more companies showed the dedication to their game that Riot does, eSports would be a lot more developed.
yes. the slowest most boring game of the moba genre. paying their way in. replacing an extremely interesting and technical game.
no totally. esports will thrive if the rich can just make terrible games and pay their way into massive events.
what are you going to say if activision paid modern warfare 3's way into dreamhack replacing starcraft 2? yes it would never happen but it's no different from this.
these comments are so funny people mad cause they took out QL and put LoL instead, but completly ok with taking out bw and putting sc2. casuals appeal is what make those kind of tournaments, not gameplay, that's exactly why LoL is in ESL. Same goes for sc2
On June 28 2011 04:37 bokchoi wrote: People need to stop hating on LoL. If anything they should be commending LoL and Riot for getting into the IEM the way they did. The company is behind their game and are trying to make it an eSport. If more companies showed the dedication to their game that Riot does, eSports would be a lot more developed.
yes. the slowest most boring game of the moba genre. paying their way in. replacing an extremely interesting and technical game.
no totally. esports will thrive if the rich can just make terrible games and pay their way into massive events.
what are you going to say if activision paid modern warfare 3's way into dreamhack replacing starcraft 2? yes it would never happen but it's no different from this.
Maybe you don't like it, but 200,000 live at any given time seemed to enjoy it. At the end of the day, if people want eSports to be established it has to go mainstream, which means appealing to a MAINSTREAM audience. As a business model, eSports needs to appeal to the public, sponsors, etc. to make it.
These arguments that technical and interesting games are being replaced by less technical or less competitive games are retarded. Newer games replaced older games all the time, whether they're better or not. If tournament organizers were TRULY concerned about skill and technicality in their games, tournaments would still have SCBW in their games list.
On June 28 2011 04:43 SagaZ wrote: casuals appeal is what make those kind of tournaments, not gameplay, that's exactly why LoL is in ESL. Same goes for sc2
pretty sure i remember people being mad about WCG dropping BW for sc2
also lol got in because they paid their way in. lol steam viewer count was bugged. there wasn't 200k viewers.
On June 28 2011 04:43 SagaZ wrote: these comments are so funny people mad cause they took out QL and put LoL instead, but completly ok with taking out bw and putting sc2. casuals appeal is what make those kind of tournaments, not gameplay, that's exactly why LoL is in ESL. Same goes for sc2
BW was never in IEM. It was Wc3 that got replaced by Sc2.
On June 28 2011 04:43 SagaZ wrote: these comments are so funny people mad cause they took out QL and put LoL instead, but completly ok with taking out bw and putting sc2. casuals appeal is what make those kind of tournaments, not gameplay, that's exactly why LoL is in ESL. Same goes for sc2
BW was dead and most of the players who placed at WCG's had already expressed they were moving on to SC2. Thats a far cry from a game that's been around forever and still has a loyal base of players still trying to provide fun games to bring more people into the scene.
On June 28 2011 04:37 bokchoi wrote: People need to stop hating on LoL. If anything they should be commending LoL and Riot for getting into the IEM the way they did. The company is behind their game and are trying to make it an eSport. If more companies showed the dedication to their game that Riot does, eSports would be a lot more developed.
yes. the slowest most boring game of the moba genre. paying their way in. replacing an extremely interesting and technical game.
no totally. esports will thrive if the rich can just make terrible games and pay their way into massive events.
what are you going to say if activision paid modern warfare 3's way into dreamhack replacing starcraft 2? yes it would never happen but it's no different from this.
Maybe you don't like it, but 200,000 live at any given time seemed to enjoy it. At the end of the day, if people want eSports to be established it has to go mainstream, which means appealing to a MAINSTREAM audience. As a business model, eSports needs to appeal to the public, sponsors, etc. to make it.
These arguments that technical and interesting games are being replaced by less technical or less competitive games are retarded. Newer games replaced older games all the time, whether they're better or not. If tournament organizers were TRULY concerned about skill and technicality in their games, tournaments would still have SCBW in their games list.
with that logic they should have put angry birds in.
anyways, tnx for all the Quake love TL (majority at least^^)
On June 28 2011 03:38 mordk wrote: I played DotA for many, many years. I played LoL for approximately 50 games. LoL SUCKS. Out of the 2 big clones of DotA (HoN and LoL), LoL is most definitely the worse game. Even when compared to other games of that type, it falls in low standards. It's really oddly paced, requires little skill, and is inferior in so many other things it's even hard to describe.
The only reason it's so wildly popular is because it's FREE, and the only reason it's DH stream got so many viewers is because of the main menu splash into the stream. However, that's not a bad thing at all. If anything, Blizz should copy this idea and put big tournament's stream into the SC2 main menu, right there in your face, include chatrooms with it as well, and you have a winner.
DotA as an e-sport was/is a blast, it requires HUGE amounts of skill and teamwork. Actually, when you see the game and see these teams like Na'Vi, E-HOME, DK, etc, perform those moves you go like "Oh yeah, that looks so fuckin easy", and then when you try it with your teammates it's an utter failure hahaha. It's so incredibly hard to reach the top in DotA it's very comparable to starcraft. LoL however, with it's odd hero movement, and most importantly, with it's incredibly strange game pace, dumbs the game down waaaay too much.
Basically, LoL is a marketing victory, it's like... junk food. It's shit, it's fast, it requires little effort, and it has large marketing around it. A huge win for the developers, a major flaw in the world for hardcore gamers .
Quoted for truth. About 50 people in my school play LoL, maybe 5 SC2. And that's alone because of 2 reasons: 1. LoL is free. 2. LoL is pathetically easy, and you can feel good about yourself the whole time (put the blame on your teammates) while also not being officially branded as 'bronze' league (aka newb).
edit: oh yea and riot does a good job advertising its esports events to all the kids^^
SC2 still can't bring out 200k viewers on livestream, so even if LoL does suck (Having played it and dota a lot, i think it kinda does), right now it's more legit as an esport than SC2 =/ . Yes it all comes down to viewership. But there is reason behind it.
True, LoL is easy to learn and play compared to SC2. So one might say it's not a "good enough" esport. However, simplicity and team play make it more appeling. Just as soccer is more appealing than tennis. Plus, simplicity of gameplay doesn't mean players won't, by refining their play to the utmost, make it a technical game at high levels, and thus make it interesting.
If you don't consider LoL an esport, then you can't consider SC2 an esport seeing how BW was.
Still, IMO Dota2 will crush that shit :p Im calling 500k viewers.
Carmac how u could do that to QL. i am a total quake noobie but i enjoyed watching it peactically as much as i enjoy watching BW T_T It is definitely super epic thing and to replace it with LoL...
On June 28 2011 04:08 DonKey_ wrote: People really shouldn't be trying to put down LoL just because they feel it's a "casual" game; this is no WoW arena repeat, this game actually has a large viewership believe it or not.
It's easy see why QL was replaced by LoL, because their viewer count is MUCH larger even if the skill required is less. (their Dream Hack viewers were something like 200,000 concurrently<--- not a made up number, google it)
I'm happy for LoL it's amazing a game other than SC2 can bring in numbers like that.
still its sad that the greatest and most skillful fps still actively beeing playd gets removed for the joke of a game lol is. yeah many play it yeah it has a big viewership. but esports wise its not much better for me then any random needforspeed,fifa or whatever
I'd like to see a group of people who call LoL an "easy no skill game" play on a team against CLG or Fnatic and tell me that its a no-brainer type of game. It requires skill and cooperation just like any other competitive game.
The main difference I see between SC2 and QL compared to LoL is that in SC2 and QL are 1v1, and the teams play a background role (even in team/clan wars, its 1v1 game). In LoL its 5v5 and not everyone is going to be MORE KILLS SO EASY TO WIN.
LoL in casual play is much different from LoL in competitive play IMO
the skill requirement in LoL is laughable compered to QL or any "real" esport game, dont even try to compare the amount of skill u need to play some shitty dota wannabe to playing even game against rapha/cooller. Personaly i have nothing against LoL being on IEM, but cant stand the fact they decided to put it instead of QL ....
On June 28 2011 05:13 Aurdon wrote: Half the Quake viewers must be in this thread. A hundred people jumping on the bandwagon saying what a tragedy that is being removed.
How many of you actually watched the Quake competition at the last IEM?
There's your answer as to why it was removed.
what a silly thing to say i watched the quake stream more than sc2. ESL got me into quake. goto the ESL website and you'll see 90% of the comments on this announcement dissapointed in removing quake
On June 28 2011 04:37 bokchoi wrote: People need to stop hating on LoL. If anything they should be commending LoL and Riot for getting into the IEM the way they did. The company is behind their game and are trying to make it an eSport. If more companies showed the dedication to their game that Riot does, eSports would be a lot more developed.
yes. the slowest most boring game of the moba genre. paying their way in. replacing an extremely interesting and technical game.
no totally. esports will thrive if the rich can just make terrible games and pay their way into massive events.
what are you going to say if activision paid modern warfare 3's way into dreamhack replacing starcraft 2? yes it would never happen but it's no different from this.
Maybe you don't like it, but 200,000 live at any given time seemed to enjoy it. At the end of the day, if people want eSports to be established it has to go mainstream, which means appealing to a MAINSTREAM audience. As a business model, eSports needs to appeal to the public, sponsors, etc. to make it.
These arguments that technical and interesting games are being replaced by less technical or less competitive games are retarded. Newer games replaced older games all the time, whether they're better or not. If tournament organizers were TRULY concerned about skill and technicality in their games, tournaments would still have SCBW in their games list.
with that logic they should have put angry birds in.
anyways, tnx for all the Quake love TL (majority at least^^)
I don't know what Angry Birds is, but if its played competitively and sponsors want to get behind it, then by all means, LETS INCLUDE IT!!
Seriously though, I never said there was anything wrong with QL as a game, and I actually played/followed QL a little bit. The game is fun, its technical, its exciting, but the fanbase (??), and/or sponsors(??) weren't there for it. The removal of QL sucks for the Quake/FPS community, but from the perspective of ESL as a tournament organizer and business model, its a no-brainer to add LoL.
so many LoL haters rofl it may be an easier game then DotA and HoN but those two games are nearly dead in the same sense bw (foreigner scene) is as well.
For E-sports to grow you need viewers and HoN and DotA wouldn't get anywhere near the numbers LoL can and most likely will if Riot keeps promoting it.
On June 28 2011 04:37 bokchoi wrote: People need to stop hating on LoL. If anything they should be commending LoL and Riot for getting into the IEM the way they did. The company is behind their game and are trying to make it an eSport. If more companies showed the dedication to their game that Riot does, eSports would be a lot more developed.
yes. the slowest most boring game of the moba genre. paying their way in. replacing an extremely interesting and technical game.
no totally. esports will thrive if the rich can just make terrible games and pay their way into massive events.
what are you going to say if activision paid modern warfare 3's way into dreamhack replacing starcraft 2? yes it would never happen but it's no different from this.
Maybe you don't like it, but 200,000 live at any given time seemed to enjoy it. At the end of the day, if people want eSports to be established it has to go mainstream, which means appealing to a MAINSTREAM audience. As a business model, eSports needs to appeal to the public, sponsors, etc. to make it.
These arguments that technical and interesting games are being replaced by less technical or less competitive games are retarded. Newer games replaced older games all the time, whether they're better or not. If tournament organizers were TRULY concerned about skill and technicality in their games, tournaments would still have SCBW in their games list.
with that logic they should have put angry birds in.
anyways, tnx for all the Quake love TL (majority at least^^)
I don't know what Angry Birds is, but if its played competitively and sponsors want to get behind it, then by all means, LETS INCLUDE IT!!
Seriously though, I never said there was anything wrong with QL as a game, and I actually played/followed QL a little bit. The game is fun, its technical, its exciting, but the fanbase (??), and/or sponsors(??) weren't there for it. The removal of QL sucks for the Quake/FPS community, but from the perspective of ESL as a tournament organizer and business model, its a no-brainer to add LoL.
you keep getting that wrong tho? it was posted earlier that lol bought their way into the tournament. it wasn't ESL getting together and going "ok, quake isn't doing so well, hard time getting sponsers, lets look at replacing it" it was riot going "well give you a big chunk of money if you make lol a game at ESL" quake said they'd match it. but obviously already signed the deal with riot and can't have 4 games apparently.
Last I heard QL was completely dead, with the same players winning every single event. Basically LoL is huge and has the potential to be a competitive title with some tweaks such as ingame pauses etc. I don't understand the hate. I miss the old quake, back when it was good.
I can't imagine quake live having that many viewers, it was a spectacular thing to watch though.. so maybe.
I guess you have to give props to riot for trying to make their game a success even though it's mostly for their own profit. No real competitive scene = multiplayer games die out.
I guess I will always be a little salty after playing wc3 dota for so long.
It's about damn time. Quake has been dead in the water for far too long, it had no place being at an event like IEM. It's unfortunate that it was replaced by a game like LoL, but at the same time, LoL is really, really popular and that will only help grow the acceptance of esports in the mainstream.
LoL has viewers, Quake doesn't seems like a simple decision. Glad to see the switch up, should be interesting to see how LoL changes over the next while as it's thrust into the limelight in multiple large tournaments.
On June 28 2011 04:37 bokchoi wrote: People need to stop hating on LoL. If anything they should be commending LoL and Riot for getting into the IEM the way they did. The company is behind their game and are trying to make it an eSport. If more companies showed the dedication to their game that Riot does, eSports would be a lot more developed.
yes. the slowest most boring game of the moba genre. paying their way in. replacing an extremely interesting and technical game.
no totally. esports will thrive if the rich can just make terrible games and pay their way into massive events.
what are you going to say if activision paid modern warfare 3's way into dreamhack replacing starcraft 2? yes it would never happen but it's no different from this.
Maybe you don't like it, but 200,000 live at any given time seemed to enjoy it. At the end of the day, if people want eSports to be established it has to go mainstream, which means appealing to a MAINSTREAM audience. As a business model, eSports needs to appeal to the public, sponsors, etc. to make it.
These arguments that technical and interesting games are being replaced by less technical or less competitive games are retarded. Newer games replaced older games all the time, whether they're better or not. If tournament organizers were TRULY concerned about skill and technicality in their games, tournaments would still have SCBW in their games list.
with that logic they should have put angry birds in.
anyways, tnx for all the Quake love TL (majority at least^^)
I don't know what Angry Birds is, but if its played competitively and sponsors want to get behind it, then by all means, LETS INCLUDE IT!!
Seriously though, I never said there was anything wrong with QL as a game, and I actually played/followed QL a little bit. The game is fun, its technical, its exciting, but the fanbase (??), and/or sponsors(??) weren't there for it. The removal of QL sucks for the Quake/FPS community, but from the perspective of ESL as a tournament organizer and business model, its a no-brainer to add LoL.
you keep getting that wrong tho? it was posted earlier that lol bought their way into the tournament. it wasn't ESL getting together and going "ok, quake isn't doing so well, hard time getting sponsers, lets look at replacing it" it was riot going "well give you a big chunk of money if you make lol a game at ESL" quake said they'd match it. but obviously already signed the deal with riot and can't have 4 games apparently.
*EDIT* carmac posting. clear it up pls.
What am I getting wrong? Let's say that LoL bought their way into IEM (which Carmac seems to refute, but it is ambiguous). As a tournament organizer or owner of a business (in this case ESL) some company comes up to you and says "Hey we'll give you X amount of dollars to run our game in your tournament/event, and we guarantee this amount of viewers (aka potential revenue)." Wouldn't you think "OH F*CK YEAH, WHAT'S THE LEAST POPULAR GAME? LETS SWITCH THEM OUT!" Of course you would, its a no-brainer.
Now if id wanted to match the offer thats their business, but the facts (stream #s, etc) would suggest that even IF id were to give the same lump sum to get their game in, the potential revenue for replacing QL with LoL is much higher. On top of that, it would there was already a contract in place, which would make it impossible to switch the games out. However, if id was really willing to pay money to get their game in as well I don't see why ESL wouldn't have put it in anyways or replaced another game. Seems id's community manager is full of it. :[
EDIT: Maybe I oversimplified it a little bit in the above scenario. I'm sure there would be some sort of analyzing process before any decisions were made. For example, the least popular game would be the one up for the axe, but if that game was still popular enough, had enough sponsor backing, or potential revenue power it should survive the cut. However, if it doesn't have those things of course you'd replace it.
Is LoL replacing QL really that different from SC2 replacing BW at WCG? Both games are there because they have far more viewers than the other game, even though they're considered joke games by players of the other game.
On June 28 2011 05:45 RageBot wrote: But... is LoL that big? will the viewers stay for a long time? Are there big LoL-only events?
Is there a big (TL level) LoL community?
200k viewers on DH livestream, free to play. Nuff said.
I've read about it, and if I recall, the stream was featured for everyone playing the game, and that even if pepole didn't watch it, their data was included for the viewership numbers, due to the way the code worked.
On June 28 2011 05:45 RageBot wrote: But... is LoL that big? will the viewers stay for a long time? Are there big LoL-only events?
Is there a big (TL level) LoL community?
200k viewers on DH livestream, free to play. Nuff said.
I've read about it, and if I recall, the stream was featured for everyone playing the game, and that even if pepole didn't watch it, their data was included for the viewership numbers, due to the way the code worked.
On June 28 2011 05:45 RageBot wrote: But... is LoL that big? will the viewers stay for a long time? Are there big LoL-only events?
Is there a big (TL level) LoL community?
200k viewers on DH livestream, free to play. Nuff said.
I've read about it, and if I recall, the stream was featured for everyone playing the game, and that even if pepole didn't watch it, their data was included for the viewership numbers, due to the way the code worked.
I believe they addressed this issue on LO3. The stream link was included in the game platform, but you actually had to click on it/access it before you got the stream, which means the numbers shouldn't have been skewed (in the way your describing). Correct me if I'm wrong.
We bitched and moaned for years that developers don't care enough about their games to really push eSports.
Now Riot is putting money and publicity into eSports and we're balling them out for it. That's incredibly hypocritical.
Some people may not like LoL. Some people may not like the way Riot implements their games and their content. However, they are trying and succeeding in bringing eyeballs and dollars to eSports. It's a good thing for all of competitive gaming.
On June 28 2011 05:17 Pratoss wrote: so many LoL haters rofl it may be an easier game then DotA and HoN but those two games are nearly dead in the same sense bw (foreigner scene) is as well.
For E-sports to grow you need viewers and HoN and DotA wouldn't get anywhere near the numbers LoL can and most likely will if Riot keeps promoting it.
too bad no one wants e-sports to grow if shitty, casual games like LoL are even considered to be 'e-sports'
the only reason LoL gets those numbers is because it's free, not because the game is good, but keep trying
On June 28 2011 05:45 RageBot wrote: But... is LoL that big? will the viewers stay for a long time? Are there big LoL-only events?
Is there a big (TL level) LoL community?
solomid.net is comparable to teamliquid.net. You can't deny it but lol is getting huge at the moment.
Same thing for www.clgaming.net. Go look at the livestreams on both of their pages. They are usually running the same number of viewers or more that SC2 streams are running on TL.net.
The eyeballs are there every single day. More proof that the Dreamhack numbers weren't faked.
On June 28 2011 05:17 Pratoss wrote: so many LoL haters rofl it may be an easier game then DotA and HoN but those two games are nearly dead in the same sense bw (foreigner scene) is as well.
For E-sports to grow you need viewers and HoN and DotA wouldn't get anywhere near the numbers LoL can and most likely will if Riot keeps promoting it.
too bad no one wants e-sports to grow if shitty, casual games like LoL are even considered to be 'e-sports'
the only reason LoL gets those numbers is because it's free, not because the game is good, but keep trying
There are plenty of games out there that are free and no one plays them.
The companies behind eSports are businesses. If you can't get the viewership, sponsor interest, etc. with competitive/technical games and there are other companies/games willing to give you that you'd turn to those games.
The same argument can be made that SC2 is a shitty, casual game in comparison to BW. Most (if not all) former BW pros turned SC2 players were outraged at how simple SC2 was going to be in comparison to BW (auto-mining, multiple building selection, smart casting, etc.) But in the end they started to enjoy those features and the game.
On June 28 2011 05:57 Aurdon wrote: DJWheat had a great point on that same Lo3.
We bitched and moaned for years that developers don't care enough about their games to really push eSports.
Now Riot is putting money and publicity into eSports and we're balling them out for it. That's incredibly hypocritical.
Some people may not like LoL. Some people may not like the way Riot implements their games and their content. However, they are trying and succeeding in bringing eyeballs and dollars to eSports. It's a good thing for all of competitive gaming.
really good point. more money in esports is a good thing for all, whether it lasts or not. it cant just be this elitist thing where we only let in the games we deem worthy and crap over others because theyre for 'casuals'.
On June 28 2011 05:45 RageBot wrote: But... is LoL that big? will the viewers stay for a long time? Are there big LoL-only events?
Is there a big (TL level) LoL community?
Considering the recent Season 1 Championship stream hit almost (or over?) 200k viewers, I would say yes, the community is there. It's not as cohesive as the SC community (there's no real TeamLiquid equivalent), but the numbers definitely dwarf that of other games like QL and HoN. Being free-to-play is a big part of this.
While I'm a huge fan of League, I wouldn't say it's ready for widespread competitive play yet. Things like a replay system, reconnects, and stable servers have yet to make an appearance. The player base isn't really as developed either, the S1 Championships created a few celebrities (Shushei) but there's really no easily identifiable "best of the best" players like Nestea or MC.
All in all, the game has lots of competitive potential, but it has a ways to go and many SC2 players simply won't understand it at first.
On topic though, the last IEM was great. The number of huge, successful, recurring tournaments like this really gives you hope for the stability of e-sports.
On June 28 2011 05:17 Pratoss wrote: so many LoL haters rofl it may be an easier game then DotA and HoN but those two games are nearly dead in the same sense bw (foreigner scene) is as well.
For E-sports to grow you need viewers and HoN and DotA wouldn't get anywhere near the numbers LoL can and most likely will if Riot keeps promoting it.
too bad no one wants e-sports to grow if shitty, casual games like LoL are even considered to be 'e-sports'
the only reason LoL gets those numbers is because it's free, not because the game is good, but keep trying
of course it has large numbers because its free, but you have to remember that if it really was a bad game (opinions) all these people would just play it once and never do it again. i've done that exact thing recently (alliance of valiant arms). its free, i try it once, thought it was okay, never played it again. theres no investment of my own money, so no sense of loss when we stop playing. but so many people consistently play LoL, and spend money on it, and are involved with the community (200K stream viewers) that your argument that the numbers are such because its free doesnt make as much sense.
On June 27 2011 23:31 Der_Magen wrote: well quake is a really fascinating game and i love to see some ql matches from time to time but i guess u have to go where the viewers go.... LoL season 1 finals had about 200k viewers at the same time
Yes. But why? Because they inject the stream in the game client. If blizz do this the same way, maybe starcraft 2 reach 500 000 if the WOW client gets the stream also
Wait what?
LoL has more players than SC2 right now for one, and two you're saying advertise a SC2 tournament in WoW? wat
And to the people that are still rolling in their own ignorance about the matter, the stream was not in the game client. It was a link to it.
On June 27 2011 23:20 GTR wrote: what a travesty that quake live was shafted for league of legends.
i guess riot are pouring the money in for the game to be a major ESPORTS title.
As someone who has played both, LoL is a joke of a game compared to QuakeLive. The game caters to noobs in every way conceivable.
I was about to hit "post," but I will instead elaborate.
From Dota -> League of Legends: Problem: meanie-head denies all my creeps leaving me way behind Fix: No more denying creeps! You can now sit there like the noob you are and get full exp! Problem: I have to use the mini-map. Fix: You are now panned so far out you can see everything w/o it! Problem: I sometimes run out of mana. Fix: Spells now take next to no mana with insane mana regneration! Problem: Sometimes when I'm playing someone better than me, they combo me to death. Fix: It is now impossible to combo someone down from full health. Spells will do insignificant damage and they will have to cast a dozen of them on you to kill you. At 40% health, please retreat to base for healing. Problem: It seems no matter who I pick, my opponent can still beat me. Fix: Some characters are now drastically overpowered compared to others so you'll always have a chance against someone actually wanting to pick a different character! Problem: When I get low on health, people sometimes kill me. Fix: Now, when you get low on health, just leisurely walk back under the tower (with extended range!) and it will totally obliterate anyone who dare follow you! Now you can lane and shoot at creeps all day long!
Yes, I hate that game. And if I had played it more recently, I'm sure I could point out 100 more things that they purposely put into that game, that dota had right, just to make it for noobs. UGH.
On June 27 2011 23:31 Der_Magen wrote: well quake is a really fascinating game and i love to see some ql matches from time to time but i guess u have to go where the viewers go.... LoL season 1 finals had about 200k viewers at the same time
LoL has more players than SC2 right now for one, and two you're saying advertise a SC2 tournament in WoW? wat
its not odd for blizzard to promote one of their games in another. thats like the onyl thing they advertised in the sc3 add banner
At least its quite clear Riot made an awesome move having their own stream on DH. This thread alone shows how much hype it added to have a stream where it said there were 200k ppl watching.
For anyone really: those viewer numbers does in no way relate to the popularity of LoL compared to SC2/QL/whatever. People have speculated how they arrived at those numbers, and while i guess no one can be sure exactly how, its absolutely certain you cant compare it to other stream numbers. LoL DOES NOT attract more than 2x SC2 viewer numbers under equal conditions, thats 100% certain. Unless similar conditions are set up at IEM, it will be much more interesting how many viewers LoL can attract under equal circumstances.
LoL might still be a good replacement for QL though, and as unrepresentative as those 200k were for the overall popularity of LoL, I think its a good sign that the company behind games start actively promoting esports. That alone is worth some respect.
On June 28 2011 05:57 proxima_ wrote: the only reason LoL gets those numbers is because it's free, not because the game is good, but keep trying
I think it because LoL is : More casual and easy than Dota\HoN. F2P model. Have some grind. And most important - they have huge commercials - like being partners of WCG - there's no blizzard for example or Valve. They had banner on Dreamhack main page (maybe not banner - but whole page had commercial). So i think they use tournaments to promote game and invite more users to buy RP - not to made eSports game. It's like new commercial method.
And that's why I don't like them - they are like Cake - LIE!1 :3
On June 28 2011 06:05 Znoz wrote: In IEM VII they will replace CS1.6 with CoD. In IEM VIII sc2 will be replaced with FarmVille.
Or Riots became "official Partners" to IEM (like in WCG) - awesome commercial ... for sh**** game.
hahah seriously its going that road and tilts me hard when people call that esport, its bad when they decide to replace actually good games with trash because it sells (oh wait its free ...)
On June 27 2011 23:20 GTR wrote: what a travesty that quake live was shafted for league of legends.
i guess riot are pouring the money in for the game to be a major ESPORTS title.
As someone who has played both, LoL is a joke of a game compared to QuakeLive. The game caters to noobs in every way conceivable.
I was about to hit "post," but I will instead elaborate.
From Dota -> League of Legends: Problem: meanie-head denies all my creeps leaving me way behind Fix: No more denying creeps! You can now sit there like the noob you are and get full exp! Problem: I have to use the mini-map. Fix: You are now panned so far out you can see everything w/o it! Problem: I sometimes run out of mana. Fix: Spells now take next to no mana with insane mana regneration! Problem: Sometimes when I'm playing someone better than me, they combo me to death. Fix: It is now impossible to combo someone down from full health. Spells will do insignificant damage and they will have to cast a dozen of them on you to kill you. At 40% health, please retreat to base for healing. Problem: It seems no matter who I pick, my opponent can still beat me. Fix: Some characters are now drastically overpowered compared to others so you'll always have a chance against someone actually wanting to pick a different character! Problem: When I get low on health, people sometimes kill me. Fix: Now, when you get low on health, just leisurely walk back under the tower (with extended range!) and it will totally obliterate anyone who dare follow you! Now you can lane and shoot at creeps all day long!
Yes, I hate that game. And if I had played it more recently, I'm sure I could point out 100 more things that they purposely put into that game, that dota had right, just to make it for noobs. UGH.
Sorry Quakelive
I guess they should replace SC2 with BW then right?
Scratch that, replace BW with WC2. BW is casual compared to that.
And btw, talking about the comboing people to death you obviously have not played enough to have played against a Leblanc.
Maybe quake should replace sc2 since it's such a complex and deep game requiring an astonishing amount of skill and sc2 is just an ezmode casual version of bw that requires no skill?
On June 28 2011 06:16 Sae wrote: Maybe quake should replace sc2 since it's such a complex and deep game requiring an astonishing amount of skill and sc2 is just an ezmode casual version of bw that requires no skill?
On June 27 2011 23:20 GTR wrote: what a travesty that quake live was shafted for league of legends.
i guess riot are pouring the money in for the game to be a major ESPORTS title.
As someone who has played both, LoL is a joke of a game compared to QuakeLive. The game caters to noobs in every way conceivable.
I was about to hit "post," but I will instead elaborate.
From Dota -> League of Legends: Problem: meanie-head denies all my creeps leaving me way behind Fix: No more denying creeps! You can now sit there like the noob you are and get full exp! Problem: I have to use the mini-map. Fix: You are now panned so far out you can see everything w/o it! Problem: I sometimes run out of mana. Fix: Spells now take next to no mana with insane mana regneration! Problem: Sometimes when I'm playing someone better than me, they combo me to death. Fix: It is now impossible to combo someone down from full health. Spells will do insignificant damage and they will have to cast a dozen of them on you to kill you. At 40% health, please retreat to base for healing. Problem: It seems no matter who I pick, my opponent can still beat me. Fix: Some characters are now drastically overpowered compared to others so you'll always have a chance against someone actually wanting to pick a different character! Problem: When I get low on health, people sometimes kill me. Fix: Now, when you get low on health, just leisurely walk back under the tower (with extended range!) and it will totally obliterate anyone who dare follow you! Now you can lane and shoot at creeps all day long!
Yes, I hate that game. And if I had played it more recently, I'm sure I could point out 100 more things that they purposely put into that game, that dota had right, just to make it for noobs. UGH.
Sorry Quakelive
I guess they should replace SC2 with BW then right?
Scratch that, replace BW with WC2. BW is casual compared to that.
And btw, talking about the comboing people to death you obviously have not played enough to have played against a Leblanc.
Yeah!! EFF control groups, shit is too casual! There's only one race too.. Orc!
It's not really surprising to see League of Legends being so popular. It has two advantages over Starcraft 2:
a) it's free b) it's easy
In case of a) the game is probably played by a lot of people between 12-18 who don't earn money yet. I know I used to avidly search the internet for free shooters when I was that age. Kids like free stuff.
In case of b) I guess we can all agree that Starcraft 2 is pretty hardcore. You've got to train a lot to become halfway decent and you've got to keep playing to keep your skill on par with the rest. Minor mistakes can and will lose you the game. There's a lot of both macromanagement and micromanagement to be done. Personally, if I play 1v1 it's one game and a half-an-hour break because SC2 is that intensive.
On June 28 2011 01:41 clusen wrote: Yes, it makes sense. If you can't enjoy a game without playing it on a certain level it is bad from a spectator point of view. That applies to LoL or WoW for example.
For Quake or SC2 it does not apply. I know quite a few people who enjoy watching SC2 without even owning the game.
That doesn't matter when said player base is so large. WoW still has over ten million, and LoL is extremely large and popular. When catering to an audience that large they don't need to worry about getting people into the scene because the scene is already well established.
If WoW had a non-terrible spectator client and LoL wasn't plagued with stability issues they would probably* gain more viewers than current SC2 events. That's not because they're better games, but that's because the audience is that much bigger.
Hell, when popular WoW sites put up streams to people raiding without advertising it happening, not even competitive play, they hold 50k to 150k viewers. That's ridiculous.
On June 27 2011 23:20 GTR wrote: what a travesty that quake live was shafted for league of legends.
i guess riot are pouring the money in for the game to be a major ESPORTS title.
As someone who has played both, LoL is a joke of a game compared to QuakeLive. The game caters to noobs in every way conceivable.
I was about to hit "post," but I will instead elaborate.
From Dota -> League of Legends: Problem: meanie-head denies all my creeps leaving me way behind Fix: No more denying creeps! You can now sit there like the noob you are and get full exp! Problem: I have to use the mini-map. Fix: You are now panned so far out you can see everything w/o it! Problem: I sometimes run out of mana. Fix: Spells now take next to no mana with insane mana regneration! Problem: Sometimes when I'm playing someone better than me, they combo me to death. Fix: It is now impossible to combo someone down from full health. Spells will do insignificant damage and they will have to cast a dozen of them on you to kill you. At 40% health, please retreat to base for healing. Problem: It seems no matter who I pick, my opponent can still beat me. Fix: Some characters are now drastically overpowered compared to others so you'll always have a chance against someone actually wanting to pick a different character! Problem: When I get low on health, people sometimes kill me. Fix: Now, when you get low on health, just leisurely walk back under the tower (with extended range!) and it will totally obliterate anyone who dare follow you! Now you can lane and shoot at creeps all day long!
Yes, I hate that game. And if I had played it more recently, I'm sure I could point out 100 more things that they purposely put into that game, that dota had right, just to make it for noobs. UGH.
When I saw that LoL replaced Quake, I raged. Hard. This is the first nail in the coffin of QL and it's disappointing that such a classic game is going to die slowly. And no one's going to care about LoL when DOTA 2 comes out, be prepared Riot!
Yeah this is sad to see, QL is so much better in every way. It's not like I'm surprised though, look at MLG's games except SCII. LoL is extremely casual and I can't understand why people play it over DOTA but atleast it's not an FPS game played with an xbox controller.
I have no idea who these people that play LoL or Halo are, I don't know anyone that plays them or maybe they're afraid to tell me.
As a lot of other people have said.. really sad about no Quake live, i always used to watch it when i could at IEM and DH etc. The games community is just too small atm to warrant keeping it over LoL. LoL will probably be a short stay but it has the player base and the recent viewing figures to back up the decision. So its hard to argue against choosing it, even if you dont like the game..
On June 27 2011 23:20 GTR wrote: what a travesty that quake live was shafted for league of legends.
i guess riot are pouring the money in for the game to be a major ESPORTS title.
As someone who has played both, LoL is a joke of a game compared to QuakeLive. The game caters to noobs in every way conceivable.
I was about to hit "post," but I will instead elaborate.
From Dota -> League of Legends: Problem: meanie-head denies all my creeps leaving me way behind Fix: No more denying creeps! You can now sit there like the noob you are and get full exp! Problem: I have to use the mini-map. Fix: You are now panned so far out you can see everything w/o it! Problem: I sometimes run out of mana. Fix: Spells now take next to no mana with insane mana regneration! Problem: Sometimes when I'm playing someone better than me, they combo me to death. Fix: It is now impossible to combo someone down from full health. Spells will do insignificant damage and they will have to cast a dozen of them on you to kill you. At 40% health, please retreat to base for healing. Problem: It seems no matter who I pick, my opponent can still beat me. Fix: Some characters are now drastically overpowered compared to others so you'll always have a chance against someone actually wanting to pick a different character! Problem: When I get low on health, people sometimes kill me. Fix: Now, when you get low on health, just leisurely walk back under the tower (with extended range!) and it will totally obliterate anyone who dare follow you! Now you can lane and shoot at creeps all day long!
Yes, I hate that game. And if I had played it more recently, I'm sure I could point out 100 more things that they purposely put into that game, that dota had right, just to make it for noobs. UGH.
Sorry Quakelive
It's clear that you have no idea what you're talking about here. You sound exactly like every other noob whining about not getting any kills. There are legitimate grievances about the loss of QL for LoL, but we don't need you bringing this sort of crap to the table.
On June 28 2011 06:25 Sakkreth wrote: Why LoL is considered good fit for esports at all ? It's soo casual...
Why is SC2 considered good for ESPORTS? It's so casual compared to BW. Everything's dumbed down and all that...
Fucking serious...
*Nostalgia goggles off* What's with the hate on SC2? You should be happy it's spreading across the world and across tournaments instead of complaining that it's "dumbed down".
On June 28 2011 06:25 Sakkreth wrote: Why LoL is considered good fit for esports at all ? It's soo casual...
Why is SC2 considered good for ESPORTS? It's so casual compared to BW. Everything's dumbed down and all that...
Fucking serious...
*Nostalgia goggles off* What's with the hate on SC2? You should be happy it's spreading across the world and across tournaments instead of complaining that it's "dumbed down".
It's just funny that SC2 people are making the exact same complaints about LoL that they were defending from BW players earlier.
On June 28 2011 06:25 Sakkreth wrote: Why LoL is considered good fit for esports at all ? It's soo casual...
Why is SC2 considered good for ESPORTS? It's so casual compared to BW. Everything's dumbed down and all that...
Fucking serious...
*Nostalgia goggles off* What's with the hate on SC2? You should be happy it's spreading across the world and across tournaments instead of complaining that it's "dumbed down".
He's not hating on SC2, he's drawing the comparison for the sack of point out the inconsistency in the argument.
Too bad about Quake, I played and watched this game so much (still have quake 3, not live, installed) But I guess the quake scene doesn't evolve too much anymore, always the same players for quite some time now, so I understand their decision. Nice prizepool anyway <3 edit : woot siege tank <3
League is a retarded game i am sad to hear that. It is just a grind fest, and it the only thing the makes it "dota" is 5v5 with 3 creep lanes. even watching tournament play is bad, spilt pushing is what wins the game, there are not any team fights and it is just objective based.
Whether or not you like LoL (I play on a tournament team) is absolutely irrelevant. You are looking at the situation from a narrow perspective. IEM looked at the dreamhack numbers and saw this: LoL doubled SC2's viewers. As a tournament with sponsors who want the most exposure possible; there is absolutely no choice. You simply must add LoL to your agenda. I mean, what would quake's numbers have been? 12k-25k? If LoL gets half of what it had at DH it is more than quadrupling the income and exposure that QL would have brought. Hell if it got half of what it had at DH it would match or beat SC2. Arguments aside for whether the game is good or not, people enjoy it and people watched it. More than watched SC2. If you don't respect that and you sit around saying that 200k ppl watching a game is bad for esports; then you, quite frankly, don't know what you're talking about and simply don't understand the business side of this.
On June 28 2011 05:19 ComusLoM wrote: Last I heard QL was completely dead, with the same players winning every single event. Basically LoL is huge and has the potential to be a competitive title with some tweaks such as ingame pauses etc. I don't understand the hate. I miss the old quake, back when it was good.
Can't wait for live on three.
Last i heard SC2 had no skill compared to BW.
Its like this BW and QL are games that take skill,therefore the usual people win(FLash in BW, rapha in QL).
You cannot cheese until the final like rain or others and beat players that are better then you.
On June 28 2011 06:25 Sakkreth wrote: Why LoL is considered good fit for esports at all ? It's soo casual...
Why is SC2 considered good for ESPORTS? It's so casual compared to BW. Everything's dumbed down and all that...
Fucking serious...
*Nostalgia goggles off* What's with the hate on SC2? You should be happy it's spreading across the world and across tournaments instead of complaining that it's "dumbed down".
It's just funny that SC2 people are making the exact same complaints about LoL that they were defending from BW players earlier.
Lol this is the truth right here... i understand this is a SC community but when SC is doing well in Esports.. most people on here are like "Its helping Esports grow" but when LoL gets 200k viewers and gets into IEM..." O its a casual game!!!!... the viewing numbers were wrong etc
Im not a massive LoL fan but it doesnt matter what you think of the game because obviously there are other people that do like it, so get over it
You guys do realize that LoL maintained double the viewers of Starcraft 2's peak for the entire weekend right? The stream was not embedded in the client there was just a direct link in the client to go to it. Also don't we all hate on blizzard for not listening to the community enough? Meanwhile Riot is at the forefront of trying to push their game and make sure it can establish its self in a competitive environment. Sure it might be a generally casual game and the skill cap isn't outstanding like other games, that doesn't change the fact that it draws a ton of interest. Interest also entices sponsors and sponsors make these events possible. Please step down off your high team liquid horse and accept QL has been dying for a long time now. It is sad to see it go but clinging to the past does not further anything.
I truly understand that some people are mad that Quake is gone, but what game do they pick. A game that got 210k viewers at some point, and a couple of millions stream views at DH? Or a game that have around 30k views or something?
LoL is good for eSport in every way! Deal with it! It might be easier, but in the end it gets more people involved in eSport, and in the end those people might find out about games like DotA/HoN or other types of games that require more skill.
Btw, no idea how much skill LoL requires, just stating that LoL IS FUCKING GOOD FOR ESPORT!
I like watching both games. I play both sparingly. I actually ´´discovered´´ QL at last season´s IEM. It´s a sad day for Quake lovers, but probably unavoidable.
Incidentally, Carmac states that it´s not a 1 for 1 and I trust his word for it.
The most important thing to me is that SC2 is included I don't really care too much about other games, but League of Legends seems like an odd choice (I think Riot convinced ESL to take it in).
Expecting great games, can't wait for more detailed schedule!
wait, why are people complaining about the growth of esports... i thought we were all on the same team?.... Who cares if LoL is "skilless" or "unbalanced" it's promoting esports and pushing the message to more and more people that esports are serious.
the bigger the better, who cares what platform or type of game is getting viewers as long as its doing that, because at the moment that's what we need to really make a stand that esports should be taken seriously(and hope a large network such as abc, espn, mtv, cbs, etc. would start up a league to mainstream audiences)...
About viewers - For example what is better: 25k viewers who have 50$ to play game and it's possible that they will buy some products from sponsors and partners? - or - 100k viewers who play after school and need 2 weeks of suffering in school without food, to buy new mouse or keyboard?
ESports or EFunfair? Quality of game or Commercial?
And if they wanted to add Dota-style game - why not take DOTA - balanced and all-known instead of you-know-what-casual-imbalanced-sht.
Yes, LoL is more casual than Dota, Quake or Starcraft. Yes it is somewhat easy to learn. But a huge amount of people play it. Not only because it's free to play but because it's really fun. And in the end that's what it is all about for most of the gamers.
And for esports to grow you need a game for the masses. I would really like Starcraft2 to be that game (don't know if it would be good or bad) but lots of my friends enjoy LoL more than Starcraft2.
I think it has alot to do with it being easy to lear and being a teamgame. Compared to Starcraft it is alot less stressfull and you can get somewhat carried by your teammates.
It may not be the game for the most competitive guys, although i cant really judge cause i play LoL on a very casual level, but it has a huge, still growing player base, so i can fully understand ESL for putting it on IEM, as sad it is to see quake gone.
On June 28 2011 06:54 UNeeK wrote:Who cares if LoL is "skilless" or "unbalanced" it's promoting esports and pushing the message to more and more people that esports are serious.
How is promoting esports with a skilless and unbalanced game, going to make esports be taken serious or more seriously ? Should be the other way around.
On June 28 2011 06:44 isM wrote: Dear Cynics in this thread,
You guys do realize that LoL maintained double the viewers of Starcraft 2's peak for the entire weekend right? The stream was not embedded in the client there was just a direct link in the client to go to it. Also don't we all hate on blizzard for not listening to the community enough? Meanwhile Riot is at the forefront of trying to push their game and make sure it can establish its self in a competitive environment. Sure it might be a generally casual game and the skill cap isn't outstanding like other games, that doesn't change the fact that it draws a ton of interest. Interest also entices sponsors and sponsors make these events possible. Please step down off your high team liquid horse and accept QL has been dying for a long time now. It is sad to see it go but clinging to the past does not further anything.
Love, isM
So, lets say they replace BW with say... mario cart if it got more viewers in korea? Even though it would never happen you would be ok with it if it did?
WTF are people smoking, LoL had 210k viewers in DH, QL had what <20k it is a busyness if they don't put the titles people want to watch and that get numbers they will not be a busyness anymore.
I hate how TL community tries to pass as "Hardcore" by excluding any new tittles that make it big as an eSport (the term to me means that there is an audience willing to watch these dudes play this game), let eSports prosper which ever game is doing it correctly. I am sure after DH numbers Riot wont need to pay tournaments to include their game.
There really needs to be an enjoyable, team based FPS in the Tribes mold come out soon. I'm tired of these super serious warfare simulators. Let's have some skiing, some good CTF and some skill.
On June 28 2011 06:54 UNeeK wrote:Who cares if LoL is "skilless" or "unbalanced" it's promoting esports and pushing the message to more and more people that esports are serious.
How is promoting esports with a skilless and unbalanced game, going to make esports be taken serious or more seriously ? Should be the other way around.
On June 28 2011 06:58 Evangelist wrote: Disappointing, but it's a good business decision.
There really needs to be an enjoyable, team based FPS in the Tribes mold come out soon. I'm tired of these super serious warfare simulators. Let's have some skiing, some good CTF and some skill.
This. Why are the only good FPSes over 10 years old.
On June 28 2011 05:19 ComusLoM wrote: Last I heard QL was completely dead, with the same players winning every single event. Basically LoL is huge and has the potential to be a competitive title with some tweaks such as ingame pauses etc. I don't understand the hate. I miss the old quake, back when it was good.
Can't wait for live on three.
Last i heard SC2 had no skill compared to BW.
Its like this BW and QL are games that take skill,therefore the usual people win(FLash in BW, rapha in QL).
You cannot cheese until the final like rain or others and beat players that are better then you.
not even close, yes bw is harder but sc2 is still infinity harder with way more depth than LoL, its overall good game and decent replacemnt for old bw and pretty much everybody accepted it (this who didnt still play bw), now look at hardcore FPS the stample of esports being replaced by some noob catering joke of a "game" because its free and popular.
On June 28 2011 05:19 ComusLoM wrote: Last I heard QL was completely dead, with the same players winning every single event. Basically LoL is huge and has the potential to be a competitive title with some tweaks such as ingame pauses etc. I don't understand the hate. I miss the old quake, back when it was good.
Can't wait for live on three.
Last i heard SC2 had no skill compared to BW.
Its like this BW and QL are games that take skill,therefore the usual people win(FLash in BW, rapha in QL).
You cannot cheese until the final like rain or others and beat players that are better then you.
not even close, yes bw is harder but sc2 is still infinity harder with way more depth than LoL, its overall good game and decent replacemnt for old bw and pretty much everybody accepted it (this who didnt still play bw), now look at hardcore FPS the stample of esports being replaced by some noob catering joke of a "game" because its free and popular.
Carmac said LoL is not replacing Quake. Quake is being removed
LoL is being added. They of course did have LoL at IEM World Championships last year
On June 28 2011 06:54 UNeeK wrote:Who cares if LoL is "skilless" or "unbalanced" it's promoting esports and pushing the message to more and more people that esports are serious.
How is promoting esports with a skilless and unbalanced game, going to make esports be taken serious or more seriously ? Should be the other way around.
SC2 replaced BW at WCG
Case in point.
Hypocrites
Except SC 2's skill ceiling isn't even comparable to LoL. BW is harder. That's great, the point is it's less of a jump than QL---LoL.
On June 28 2011 06:54 UNeeK wrote:Who cares if LoL is "skilless" or "unbalanced" it's promoting esports and pushing the message to more and more people that esports are serious.
How is promoting esports with a skilless and unbalanced game, going to make esports be taken serious or more seriously ? Should be the other way around.
SC2 replaced BW at WCG
Case in point.
Hypocrites
Read one of my previous posts to that one in this same topic, you are very clueless.
SC2's strategies are still developing and the top 5-10 players are constantly in flux. That's the sign of a decently balanced game.
I'm also not sure what people find so thrilling about the idea of having each production building in its own control group. The level of micro involved in SC2 will increase as people grow used to the interface, the different sized maps and so on, but for now it's a hugely entertaining game to watch for the casual RTS player - much more so than BW ever was.
On June 28 2011 06:58 mYNDIG wrote: Because DotA would get a fifth of LoLs views? Simple as that
With same commercials it would get more. If you so addicted in viewers - add some asian f2p mmorpg wint **kk players and prepare to copy " It's good for esports" in every thread.
On June 28 2011 06:55 Znoz wrote: About viewers - For example what is better: 25k viewers who have 50$ to play game and it's possible that they will buy some products from sponsors and partners? - or - 100k viewers who play after school and need 2 weeks of suffering in school without food, to buy new mouse or keyboard?
ESports or EFunfair? Quality of game or Commercial?
And if they wanted to add Dota-style game - why not take DOTA - balanced and all-known instead of you-know-what-casual-imbalanced-sht.
Incorrect, Riot went from a start up to a 400million dollar company within 1 year, I don't know how easy it is for you to make 400million but I ll need 4000years @100k a year. And they didn't make that money because of their good looks.
On June 28 2011 06:54 UNeeK wrote:Who cares if LoL is "skilless" or "unbalanced" it's promoting esports and pushing the message to more and more people that esports are serious.
How is promoting esports with a skilless and unbalanced game, going to make esports be taken serious or more seriously ? Should be the other way around.
SC2 replaced BW at WCG
Case in point.
Hypocrites
Except SC 2's skill ceiling isn't even comparable to LoL. BW is harder, great, cool, the point is it's less of a jump than QL---LoL.
Well, even the pro's can lose to lesser players in certain situations. In LoL, even with the most retarded team comps the better players will win (See Riot vs. The Pro's at Dreamhack).
And the top players on Premade 5x5's records are things like 194-20; 70-6; 183-27; 134-19.
And plus, people need to understand LoL isn't replacing Quake. Carmac said, it wasn't 1 for 1. Quake is being removed.........................LoL is being added. Isolated events.
SC2's strategies are still developing and the top 5-10 players are constantly in flux. That's the sign of a decently balanced game.
I'm also not sure what people find so thrilling about the idea of having each production building in its own control group. The level of micro involved in SC2 will increase as people grow used to the interface, the different sized maps and so on, but for now it's a hugely entertaining game to watch for the casual RTS player - much more so than BW ever was.
Spoken like a man thats never watched a game of bw ever.
Sad day for esports and testament as to why it will never be taken seriously in the West.
On June 28 2011 06:55 Znoz wrote: About viewers - For example what is better: 25k viewers who have 50$ to play game and it's possible that they will buy some products from sponsors and partners? - or - 100k viewers who play after school and need 2 weeks of suffering in school without food, to buy new mouse or keyboard?
ESports or EFunfair? Quality of game or Commercial?
And if they wanted to add Dota-style game - why not take DOTA - balanced and all-known instead of you-know-what-casual-imbalanced-sht.
Incorrect, Riot went from a start up to a 400million dollar company within 1 year, I don't know how easy it is for you to make 400million but I ll need 4000years @100k a year. And they didn't make that money because of their good looks.
apparently its pretty easy. Copy someone elses design for a game xactly, make it easier and watch the money roll in
The quake community has been dead and dying for a while now. The community is what keeps the games on circuits, unfortunately it is not one that is sustainable on its own. Knew it was coming eventually. LoL on the other hand is a huge community with a thriving network and company supporting it fully. Don't care for league but it definitely has the backing to sustain a competitive scene for years to come.
adding LoL to the IEM is understandable, did u see how many people were watching the stream from DreamHack Summer ? several times more people than SC2. LoL became very popular, nothing weird there, but no QL is sad news.
On June 28 2011 06:44 isM wrote: Dear Cynics in this thread,
You guys do realize that LoL maintained double the viewers of Starcraft 2's peak for the entire weekend right? The stream was not embedded in the client there was just a direct link in the client to go to it. Also don't we all hate on blizzard for not listening to the community enough? Meanwhile Riot is at the forefront of trying to push their game and make sure it can establish its self in a competitive environment. Sure it might be a generally casual game and the skill cap isn't outstanding like other games, that doesn't change the fact that it draws a ton of interest. Interest also entices sponsors and sponsors make these events possible. Please step down off your high team liquid horse and accept QL has been dying for a long time now. It is sad to see it go but clinging to the past does not further anything.
Love, isM
So, lets say they replace BW with say... mario cart if it got more viewers in korea? Even though it would never happen you would be ok with it if it did?
I don't really care about Korean esports, seeing as esports is a completely established and acceptable forum in Korea. But with your hypothetical and if the factors were the same with BW having sub 10k viewers and being completely dead as far as no new up and comers or anything while a new game maintaining 200k+ viewers and opening the eyes of sponsors which would further allow more tournaments go for it. Lest we forget replacing QL (or bw in your awful hypothetical situation) just goes to further the game we play now (sc2 as this is in the sc2 section of a starcraft community website).
On June 28 2011 06:54 UNeeK wrote:Who cares if LoL is "skilless" or "unbalanced" it's promoting esports and pushing the message to more and more people that esports are serious.
How is promoting esports with a skilless and unbalanced game, going to make esports be taken serious or more seriously ? Should be the other way around.
because whether a game has skill or no skill doesnt matter to people that arent already of competitive gaming or esports. to the vast majority of people a game is just that, a game. and some people just dont 'gaming' seriously. it doesnt matter whether its BW or SC2 or QL or LoL, people will watch what they enjoy or what looks the most 'fun' and entertaining. like i love sc2, but i cannot watch BW because i can barely follow whats going on. whether people like it or not a lot of people watch LoL, and a lot of people play LoL, so opening up esports to them brings in that audience and community and makes us better for it.
On June 28 2011 05:19 ComusLoM wrote: Last I heard QL was completely dead, with the same players winning every single event. Basically LoL is huge and has the potential to be a competitive title with some tweaks such as ingame pauses etc. I don't understand the hate. I miss the old quake, back when it was good.
Can't wait for live on three.
Last i heard SC2 had no skill compared to BW.
Its like this BW and QL are games that take skill,therefore the usual people win(FLash in BW, rapha in QL).
You cannot cheese until the final like rain or others and beat players that are better then you.
not even close, yes bw is harder but sc2 is still infinity harder with way more depth than LoL, its overall good game and decent replacemnt for old bw and pretty much everybody accepted it (this who didnt still play bw), now look at hardcore FPS the stample of esports being replaced by some noob catering joke of a "game" because its free and popular.
If it is that unskilled and imbalanced of a game, then download it and win the go4LoL this weekend.
This has been such an elitist response from the TL community that I am seriously disappointed.
If you look at the market of esports appealing to gamers, it has that market quite obviously cornered. In order for it to expand it needs to reach the casual internet user and the general populace. In order to do that you're going to need a more casual and easy to understand game. Is sc2 that game for the West? Maybe. But also, perhaps LoL is. Mind you, it is only one event; but it has demonstrated the most promise of any new game for bridging that gap. Show some respect and give it a chance; or cling onto your dying niche games and watch the current leave you in the dust.
SC2's strategies are still developing and the top 5-10 players are constantly in flux. That's the sign of a decently balanced game.
I'm also not sure what people find so thrilling about the idea of having each production building in its own control group. The level of micro involved in SC2 will increase as people grow used to the interface, the different sized maps and so on, but for now it's a hugely entertaining game to watch for the casual RTS player - much more so than BW ever was.
lol? How is that the sign of a balanced game. That's the sign of a volatile/unbalanced game. In a perfectly balanced game, the top players would always stay the same, because they would never be beaten by lesser players.
On June 28 2011 06:55 Znoz wrote: About viewers - For example what is better: 25k viewers who have 50$ to play game and it's possible that they will buy some products from sponsors and partners? - or - 100k viewers who play after school and need 2 weeks of suffering in school without food, to buy new mouse or keyboard?
ESports or EFunfair? Quality of game or Commercial?
And if they wanted to add Dota-style game - why not take DOTA - balanced and all-known instead of you-know-what-casual-imbalanced-sht.
Incorrect, Riot went from a start up to a 400million dollar company within 1 year, I don't know how easy it is for you to make 400million but I ll need 4000years @100k a year. And they didn't make that money because of their good looks.
apparently its pretty easy. Copy someone elses design for a game xactly, make it easier and watch the money roll in
Spoken like someone who never played a MOBA in his life.
On June 28 2011 06:55 Znoz wrote: About viewers - For example what is better: 25k viewers who have 50$ to play game and it's possible that they will buy some products from sponsors and partners? - or - 100k viewers who play after school and need 2 weeks of suffering in school without food, to buy new mouse or keyboard?
ESports or EFunfair? Quality of game or Commercial?
And if they wanted to add Dota-style game - why not take DOTA - balanced and all-known instead of you-know-what-casual-imbalanced-sht.
Incorrect, Riot went from a start up to a 400million dollar company within 1 year, I don't know how easy it is for you to make 400million but I ll need 4000years @100k a year. And they didn't make that money because of their good looks.
apparently its pretty easy. Copy someone elses design for a game xactly, make it easier and watch the money roll in
If LoL was such an easy game to master, you would see a lot more teams competing at the highest level.Yet, the top 5 or so NA teams are consistently doing well. With LoL's playerbase, if the game was so easy to master, you would see like 100 top teams that could all compete near equal with each other, which isn't the case.
On June 28 2011 07:12 mikyaJ wrote: That would actually be HoN And we all know how successful that is right now
Yeah, in LoL they removed some features and made game easier. So it's : Take game - copy - make casual - make f2p- add micro-transactions - add commercials and promote game in tournaments - print-screen 200k viewers- go to forums and post it with big trollface and "u mad?" words.
On June 28 2011 07:12 mikyaJ wrote: That would actually be HoN And we all know how successful that is right now
Yeah, in LoL they removed some features and made game easier. So it's : Take game - copy - make casual - make f2p- add micro-transactions - add commercials and promote game in tournaments - print-screen 200k viewers- go to forums and post it with big trollface and "u mad?" words.
You could have print screened 200k viewers at any point the stream was on which is undoubtedly the biggest factor in this whole thing.
I remember when progaming was more underground type shit. Instead of shit now days getting the lesser games with the bigger view count. Whats next cs 1.6 getting replaced by CSS, or call of duty 8 because it gets more eyeballs? a bigger esport scene isn't going to be the best thing ever. it will appeal to more and more casual fans, and leave the 'core guys yearning for the days of old.
On June 28 2011 06:55 Znoz wrote: About viewers - For example what is better: 25k viewers who have 50$ to play game and it's possible that they will buy some products from sponsors and partners? - or - 100k viewers who play after school and need 2 weeks of suffering in school without food, to buy new mouse or keyboard?
ESports or EFunfair? Quality of game or Commercial?
And if they wanted to add Dota-style game - why not take DOTA - balanced and all-known instead of you-know-what-casual-imbalanced-sht.
Incorrect, Riot went from a start up to a 400million dollar company within 1 year, I don't know how easy it is for you to make 400million but I ll need 4000years @100k a year. And they didn't make that money because of their good looks.
The other explanation other than their good looks, Riot Games sold a majority stake in the business to the Chinese Google equivalent for what we can only assume was a dump truck full of cash. If you look on their investor page, they state outright that their are financially backed by Tencent Holdings.
Also, I have not seen any audited financial statements for Riot Games, so I would call into question your assertion of $400M, that is the estimated (financial details of the deal were not officially released) valuation of the company which is a multiple of its true financial performance. Tencent paid a premium to eliminate the two other venture capital firms that had a stake in the startup.
Short answer, to Tencent Holdings, Riot Games looked like it was worth less on paper today than it could be in ten years, and they are willing to gamble on that fact to the tune of $400M. So, in a way, they did choose them for their good looks, but taking the purchase price of a business with the multiple as its "worth" is sophomoric of the first order. By that logic Apple is worth $300B, and LinkedIn is worth $7B.
On June 28 2011 07:12 mikyaJ wrote: That would actually be HoN And we all know how successful that is right now
Yeah, in LoL they removed some features and made game easier. So it's : Take game - copy - make casual - make f2p- add micro-transactions - add commercials and promote game in tournaments - print-screen 200k viewers- go to forums and post it with big trollface and "u mad?" words.
Did that with Starcraft 2 too, they took BW, - copy - make it easier- SHINY GRAPHICS - make casual - profit!.
On June 28 2011 06:55 Znoz wrote: About viewers - For example what is better: 25k viewers who have 50$ to play game and it's possible that they will buy some products from sponsors and partners? - or - 100k viewers who play after school and need 2 weeks of suffering in school without food, to buy new mouse or keyboard?
ESports or EFunfair? Quality of game or Commercial?
And if they wanted to add Dota-style game - why not take DOTA - balanced and all-known instead of you-know-what-casual-imbalanced-sht.
Incorrect, Riot went from a start up to a 400million dollar company within 1 year, I don't know how easy it is for you to make 400million but I ll need 4000years @100k a year. And they didn't make that money because of their good looks.
apparently its pretty easy. Copy someone elses design for a game xactly, make it easier and watch the money roll in
Spoken like someone who never played a MOBA in his life.
i actually played tides of blood and then switched to dota then when LoL beta came out i played that until release....so yeah ur right
On June 28 2011 07:13 Shatter wrote: If LoL was such an easy game to master, you would see a lot more teams competing at the highest level.Yet, the top 5 or so NA teams are consistently doing well. With LoL's playerbase, if the game was so easy to master, you would see like 100 top teams that could all compete near equal with each other, which isn't the case.
Because 90% of LoLers need 5-7 years to become independent from school and parents, and then they will compete in "top".
On June 28 2011 05:19 ComusLoM wrote: Last I heard QL was completely dead, with the same players winning every single event. Basically LoL is huge and has the potential to be a competitive title with some tweaks such as ingame pauses etc. I don't understand the hate. I miss the old quake, back when it was good.
Can't wait for live on three.
Last i heard SC2 had no skill compared to BW.
Its like this BW and QL are games that take skill,therefore the usual people win(FLash in BW, rapha in QL).
You cannot cheese until the final like rain or others and beat players that are better then you.
its overall good game and decent replacemnt for old bw and pretty much everybody accepted it (this who didnt still play bw),
On June 28 2011 07:13 Shatter wrote: If LoL was such an easy game to master, you would see a lot more teams competing at the highest level.Yet, the top 5 or so NA teams are consistently doing well. With LoL's playerbase, if the game was so easy to master, you would see like 100 top teams that could all compete near equal with each other, which isn't the case.
Because 90% of LoLers need 5-7 years to become independent from school and parents, and then they will compete in "top".
Quake is a good game, but whoever watched League of Legends at Dreamhack might have noticed that the viewer count is even higher than the Starcraft one... Watching this game is amazing, I would give LoL a chance for that EMS... : )
On June 28 2011 07:13 Shatter wrote: If LoL was such an easy game to master, you would see a lot more teams competing at the highest level.Yet, the top 5 or so NA teams are consistently doing well. With LoL's playerbase, if the game was so easy to master, you would see like 100 top teams that could all compete near equal with each other, which isn't the case.
Because 90% of LoLers need 5-7 years to become independent from school and parents, and then they will compete in "top".
On June 27 2011 23:20 GTR wrote: what a travesty that quake live was shafted for league of legends.
i guess riot are pouring the money in for the game to be a major ESPORTS title.
As someone who has played both, LoL is a joke of a game compared to QuakeLive. The game caters to noobs in every way conceivable.
I was about to hit "post," but I will instead elaborate.
From Dota -> League of Legends: Problem: meanie-head denies all my creeps leaving me way behind Fix: No more denying creeps! You can now sit there like the noob you are and get full exp! Problem: I have to use the mini-map. Fix: You are now panned so far out you can see everything w/o it! Problem: I sometimes run out of mana. Fix: Spells now take next to no mana with insane mana regneration! Problem: Sometimes when I'm playing someone better than me, they combo me to death. Fix: It is now impossible to combo someone down from full health. Spells will do insignificant damage and they will have to cast a dozen of them on you to kill you. At 40% health, please retreat to base for healing. Problem: It seems no matter who I pick, my opponent can still beat me. Fix: Some characters are now drastically overpowered compared to others so you'll always have a chance against someone actually wanting to pick a different character! Problem: When I get low on health, people sometimes kill me. Fix: Now, when you get low on health, just leisurely walk back under the tower (with extended range!) and it will totally obliterate anyone who dare follow you! Now you can lane and shoot at creeps all day long!
Yes, I hate that game. And if I had played it more recently, I'm sure I could point out 100 more things that they purposely put into that game, that dota had right, just to make it for noobs. UGH.
Sorry Quakelive
Just no. No. Don't talk if you don't know shit.
The only joke is you.
Haha that was what I was going to post. People don't seem to understand that LoL has high level competition, if there was no skill then there would be no stand out players. But there are players that are way better than the average or even the really good players, if it was so easy then everyone would be able to compete with the best. People said the same thing about SC2, and while there isn't that huge of a gap between the pro and the high masters/grand master players who don't play it competitively it's still very noticeable in competition.
Quite saddened that QL isnt in IEM anymore but I guess it is LOLs turn to give it a try. Maybe in a few years when the moba scene has moved on there will still be enough people playing QL that it will go back into the circuit.
Also theres no need to bash on lol. Its a game without replay and spectator functions. Its like picking on an esports kid that is still in its diapers.
I've recently been playing a lot of LoL (more than sc2 tbh...). And after seeing their season 1 finals, I'm totally stoked for it to be growing in the esports community!
On June 28 2011 07:18 Kipsate wrote: Did that with Starcraft 2 too, they took BW, - copy - make it easier- SHINY GRAPHICS - make casual - profit!.
I like both sc2 and sc. Sc2 was like new rule set for game or graphical and mechanics update. So will be Dota 2 - update and change\progress... not copy and promote with "it's free" " we are in tournaments " " We have many players " banners like in "don't-say-or-you-will-be-banned-for-trolling-game".
And i never played QL (or it's series), i played LoL near 1 month... and it's more interesting for me to watch QL - it's more entertaining. That's why i dont't like QL removal and Lol adding.
On June 28 2011 07:13 Shatter wrote: If LoL was such an easy game to master, you would see a lot more teams competing at the highest level.Yet, the top 5 or so NA teams are consistently doing well. With LoL's playerbase, if the game was so easy to master, you would see like 100 top teams that could all compete near equal with each other, which isn't the case.
Because 90% of LoLers need 5-7 years to become independent from school and parents, and then they will compete in "top".
On June 28 2011 07:27 question wrote: well QL and starcraft are 100% best esports to spectate
That is a matter of opinion, I've watched all, and i find LoL a more fun experience to watch than SC2; though i find QL better than both for "holy crap" moments.
On June 28 2011 06:55 Znoz wrote: About viewers - For example what is better: 25k viewers who have 50$ to play game and it's possible that they will buy some products from sponsors and partners? - or - 100k viewers who play after school and need 2 weeks of suffering in school without food, to buy new mouse or keyboard?
ESports or EFunfair? Quality of game or Commercial?
And if they wanted to add Dota-style game - why not take DOTA - balanced and all-known instead of you-know-what-casual-imbalanced-sht.
Incorrect, Riot went from a start up to a 400million dollar company within 1 year, I don't know how easy it is for you to make 400million but I ll need 4000years @100k a year. And they didn't make that money because of their good looks.
The other explanation other than their good looks, Riot Games sold a majority stake in the business to the Chinese Google equivalent for what we can only assume was a dump truck full of cash. If you look on their investor page, they state outright that their are financially backed by Tencent Holdings.
Also, I have not seen any audited financial statements for Riot Games, so I would call into question your assertion of $400M, that is the estimated (financial details of the deal were not officially released) valuation of the company which is a multiple of its true financial performance. Tencent paid a premium to eliminate the two other venture capital firms that had a stake in the startup.
Short answer, to Tencent Holdings, Riot Games looked like it was worth less on paper today than it could be in ten years, and they are willing to gamble on that fact to the tune of $400M. So, in a way, they did choose them for their good looks, but taking the purchase price of a business with the multiple as its "worth" is sophomoric of the first order. By that logic Apple is worth $300B, and LinkedIn is worth $7B.
True however Riot is expanding to China and Korea this year which will most likely boost them to that level much quicker than what you might expect, the Chinese company bought them to make sure the Chinese launch was smooth because the Chinese market is huge when it comes to micro-transactions, so Riots worth will rise significantly this upcoming year, they will have Korean/Chinese invites to their tournaments later this year or in 2012. A VC wouldn't look 10 years in the horizon they will gamble but for quick returns cause that is when their heads depends on quicker results to their investors.
This is getting nowhere, LoL has a lot of cool elements to it and many of the people talking the talk about how ez it is should walk the walk and get their own teams winning the big money that Riot is putting up (oh btw riot is getting their own sponsors for the events so they aren't paying for anything by themselves they are getting sponsors to pay for everything like everyone else).
I am done here, elitism, politics, religion, should be never talked about over dinner with guests cause everyone has their views and is not willing to change those views.
On June 28 2011 07:27 question wrote: well QL and starcraft are 100% best esports to spectate
WTF, BW is the best esport to spectate, followed by SC2.
How can QL be better than BW in any possible way.
It's 3D.
Now to stop trolling; it's a matter of taste just like with anything else. Not everybody loves to watch strategy games but rather watches guns and stuff =)?
On June 28 2011 07:27 question wrote: well QL and starcraft are 100% best esports to spectate
WTF, BW is the best esport to spectate, followed by SC2.
How can QL be better than BW in any possible way.
Spoken like a true genius. BW IS the best esport to spectate, no FPS could ever live up to it, it appeals more to the players than BW or even SC2. It's far easier to spectate BW and then Sc2 than any other esport simply because of the nature of the game. We argued about this for hours on IRC (well one person said FPS was easier to spectate and kept reiterating his terrible points while the rest of us laid down the law). While I love CS and Quake (QL not so much) I will never enjoy watching them like I do BW or SC2, it's just way better as a spectator. I didn't watch the LoL stream so I can't comment, although I played LoL around a year ago I can really see how it would be great to spectate with a proper spectator mode.
What's with the massive LoL hate? Like it or hate it, but it's going to bring hundreds of thousands of viewers, which can only be GOOD for eSports in general. Maybe it'll introduce many players to Starcraft 2, as well.
On June 28 2011 07:29 isM wrote: You cannot make arguments with glaring weaknesses in them. I suggest before trying to argue doing some research on basic principals.
LoL *random words* 200k viewers *random words* esports grow *random words*. I'm improved, or still need some practice of being lol-fan and argue with people?
On June 28 2011 07:29 isM wrote: You cannot make arguments with glaring weaknesses in them. I suggest before trying to argue doing some research on basic principals.
LoL *random words* 200k viewers *random words* esports grow *random words*. I'm improved, or still need some practice of being lol-fan and argue with people?
Surely LOL's rise is good news for esports? If it takes off in China it could be the biggest game in the world, and really accelerate esports' global acceptance.
Furthermore, it isn't a bad game. On this forum there seems to be an idea that complexity = good, and that because DOTA is more complex it's better. Isn't simplicity occasionally better? Elegant design allowing more subtlety? Chess or football or something?
"This isn't going to turn into another LoL vs (all other games apparently) thread. You can speak your mind about the selection of games but keep it civil."
I hope I'm not stoking the flames, but... LoL as an eSport was actually fairly entertaining at Dreamhack. It was my first exposure to it as a spectator, and aside from the clutter on the screen, it was really watchable.
Sad they got rid of QL, but LoL is not a loss. It's actually similar to WoW arena at the high end.
Sorry , bro - i will not butthurt about this because: 1) I like both games - and as I already posted - BW and Sc2 are like Dota and Dota 2 in future . 2) I play with low shader settings, so it's almost same :3 only need to find BW soundpack.
Sorry if said sht about you beloved game, just sad about removal of QL.
From a business standpoint it makes sense for a game with relatively low viewer count to be shafted and a game with very high viewer count brought in. The claim that the only reason LoL got so many viewers is because Riot pushed it so hard and got it embedded in the website and client doesn't make much sense. Yeah they did do that, but what's it matter? A view is a view, and just because people are watching ads on the LoL client doesn't mean the company running the adds gets less money from them. Ultimately, an esport can be as balanced as possible, but it also has to be fun to spectate. If there are no spectators then there is no money to be had and therefor no esports.
I think the idea that LoL is getting views just because of it's casual fanbase is pretty much wrong. CoD and Halo are two shooters geared directly towards the casual audience, and SC2 gets much more views at MLG than those two do (according to Slasher iirc). I think as a community centered around growing esports we should be happy that the scene is expanding to a more mainstream audience and not upset that it's no longer this hidden community. I understand the concern of a skill-less game being harmful to the scene, because I think CoD is harmful to the video game industry in general. However, LoL is not some game that any noob can get on and win in and I think we need to give it a chance before bashing it so hard.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
Uh, all he did was hit R and right click a few times.. What's impressive about that?
You probably need about 30APM to play LoL at the highest level, it's not a very skillful game.. the only real skill required is having decent coordination in your team, the actual game is very easy to play.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
Uh, all he did was hit R and right click a few times.. What's impressive about that?
You probably need about 30APM to play LoL at the highest level, it's not a very skillful game.. the only real skill required is having decent coordination in your team, the actual game is very easy to play.
If thats true then you should no problem winning the next Go4LoL tourney right? Please tell us your summoner name so I can track your quick rise to the top.
On June 28 2011 00:09 Termit wrote: Sure LoL is free, but don't you have to like buy heroes and items in LoL to not get raped in games when the skill level is higher? If so, it feels kinda wierd to have "esport game" where you are forced to buy shit to play on the same terms as the others.
Like in WoW when it was a "esport game", it fucking sucked shit because some teams had the best items etc.
You have no idea what you are talking about do you? In pretty much any game that includes items/skills/weapons that are considered imbalanced, unfair, bad or whatever you wish are restricted for tournament use. I'm not sure if LoL does but I'm sure the pros play with the same items. When wow arena was played in tournaments you could choose whatever gear you wanted within certain limits to make it fair for everyone. Not sure where you pulled that bullshit statement from that there was a item imbalance between teams in WoW tournaments.
it was bound to happen. Quake has been dying. CS 1.6 is also dying. i'm not going to hate on LoL, it deserves it. 200k viewers was magnificent.
Problem with shooting games is there are WAY too many other options. if you thought the LoL/DoTA/HoN scene was bad, in terms of too many alternatives. Look at shooters, you have the CS clones like crossfire and combat arms/w.e fuck generic game. Those games are on WCG. Then for NA you have Halo/COD/Gears of War/ w.e big hit title. No one is going to want to play Quake. Thats just the truth. too many shooters that are in competitive leagues. is there really a need for a competitive COD league or a cs clone league? just play cs or quake, it doesnt make sense to have an alternative (not a sequel).
To the people crying hypocrisy towards sc2 being used over bw, well sc2 is the sequel. it makes sense.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
I have played war3, LoL and some HoN through the years and I still dont get whats going on That game needs a better spectating interface for once - I dont get how it attracted 200k+ viewers as it is.
Just because arguments against\for games seem similar doesn't mean the situation is the same - most people around here are fairly new and can't really articulate specific reasons, but sometimes they still happen to be right.
SC2 is a lot worse than BW, however, it isn't dumbed down in it's core.. It's just easier.
Now, these dota games (and LoL is the easiest of them... ) are very simple in their cores. There are hardly any skills NOT in sc, yet you control a single unit. Surely players get good at controlling the single unit, but that's not much.
Many will say it's a teamgame.. But QL TDM is also a teamgame; and it has a skillgap that's ten times as high.
No offense meant to LoL players - it might be the most fun game for you, but it's obviously a crappy esport.
I doubt anyone has ever doubted that Quake takes the most individual skill out of any competitive fps in the western scene. That's not what he was trying to say. That's not what this is about either. Blame the gaming community for not supporting the game as much as they should. It's amazing, it's such a pity modern fps games just lack that depth.
On June 28 2011 00:09 Termit wrote: Sure LoL is free, but don't you have to like buy heroes and items in LoL to not get raped in games when the skill level is higher? If so, it feels kinda wierd to have "esport game" where you are forced to buy shit to play on the same terms as the others.
Like in WoW when it was a "esport game", it fucking sucked shit because some teams had the best items etc.
You have no idea what you are talking about do you? In pretty much any game that includes items/skills/weapons that are considered imbalanced, unfair, bad or whatever you wish are restricted for tournament use. I'm not sure if LoL does but I'm sure the pros play with the same items. When wow arena was played in tournaments you could choose whatever gear you wanted within certain limits to make it fair for everyone. Not sure where you pulled that bullshit statement from that there was a item imbalance between teams in WoW tournaments.
They play all the tournaments on a different client so I'm not entirely sure how it works out there, but everything you can buy with Riot Points (aka the microtransactions) can also be bought for currency you get after every game (influence points). The only limiting factor is time investment to unlocking everything if you don't buy Riot Points.
The only strictly Riot Point thing is skins which just change the graphics of your character.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
I have played war3, LoL and some HoN through the years and I still dont get whats going on That game needs a better spectating interface for once - I dont get how it attracted 200k+ viewers as it is.
He waited for the perfect moment to dive past the tower and get the kill and then evaded another hero who tried to kill him. Any sooner and the tower would have killed him and any later and he wouldn't have been able to use his R to close the gap. Is it really that hard to realize what went on if you played DotA and other mobas before?
I feel for the QL guys, we have to say goodbye to some real e-sport icons . I can see LoL dying a silent dead like WoW tho, don't know what's so awesome about it + the fact that there's like 3/4 exact copies of the game doesn't really help.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
lol jukes like that would happen for 2mins in dota with like 5heroes and it would be much more epic its like saying hey, look at this clip of forcefield and storm its great move !
I've never played LoL but enjoyed LoL stream during dreamhack greatly (there goes argument: free game=large audience, at least not in my case). I was so sucked in, that, oh boy, after day one I forgot about SC2, and wasn't even angry when ZenonTheStoic spoiled SC2 results during LoL finals
The game is so entertaining to watch, so much awsome action, teamplay, coordination, so much drama... I love it.
LoL can have it anyways, it's not like ESL will actually pay them the prize money that is advertised (http://www.playquake.com/columns/2011/06/prizes/)
On June 28 2011 08:22 butch wrote: I feel for the QL guys, we have to say goodbye to some real e-sport icons . I can see LoL dying a silent dead like WoW tho, don't know what's so awesome about it + the fact that there's like 3/4 exact copies of the game doesn't really help.
3/4 exact copies, eh? Would you mind supporting your argument by naming one of them?
This terrible thread represents everything I hate about what TL has become.
What really has me amazed is that SC2 fans are constantly trying to defend SC2 when BW elitists call the game shit for being "too simple," and "inferior," and yet here everyone is leveraging the same complaints against LoL with a holier-than-thou, "the game I prefer is clearly better than this garbage," attitude.
How 'bout instead of bitching and moaning and getting into pissing contests with one another over our preferred hobbies and e-sports of choice, we recognize that every game is as valid as the next - be it Quake, 1.6, BW, SC2, LoL, or whatever your pick is. Being upset that a game you love is being marginalized or slowly fading out is one thing, to try to drag down things that others enjoy is another.
Ugh. I wouldn't mind seeing TL adopt a zero tolerance policy for this nonsense. Every LR thread, every news post, every thread is filled with trolls spewing bile and tanking the quality of the community day by day. I would love to see perma-bans being handed out like candy at this point.
Sadly popularity wins here. I've got to imagine it's a real kick in the nuts to anybody who has played Quake competitively to see something like League of Legends replace it.
I can understand why people like it and it's a fun game, but I don't think it has any place in a competitive setting. Not until it gets a serious makeover at least.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
Uh, all he did was hit R and right click a few times.. What's impressive about that?
You probably need about 30APM to play LoL at the highest level, it's not a very skillful game.. the only real skill required is having decent coordination in your team, the actual game is very easy to play.
Chess must not be very competitive either, in fact the better players usually have LOWER apm than the casual players. Also, football (American) must not be very competitive either. They stand around for about 20- 30 seconds and pick out their play, then wait about another 5 seconds waiting to snap and calling audibles. Only then do they execute about a 10 second play. So much time spent not doing anything! Also in football, all the guy does is throw the ball. How hard is that? I can throw a ball! I can even but a tight spiral on it!
Or maybe since LoL is slower paced than SC it just doesn't require constant keyboard inputs. LoL is more about picking a character to perform a certain role, and acquiring the correct equipment to suit that role. That role also should change depending on the opposing team's composition and what items they select.
I think the problem we as SC players have with something like LoL is that it's team based compared to SC which is individual competition. I hear a lot of "LoL isn't very balanced!" and I think the idea behind that is that people don't like the idea that in a 1v1 battle some champions have a blatant advantage over others. LoL isn't about 1v1 fights or anything like that, like I recently started playing a support character. I usually end up with 2 kills at most by the end of a game, but my teammates are averaging many more kills than before I started playing an assist based character.
Sorry for all the huge long winded rant post, but I think the main reason for the hate towards LoL is a lack of understanding. I will admit, I play both it and SC2 often (not good at either of them lol) and i do think SC2 requires more skill. However, that doesn't mean I don't see LoL as extremely skill dependent. It's just a different type of skill.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
Uh, all he did was hit R and right click a few times.. What's impressive about that?
You probably need about 30APM to play LoL at the highest level, it's not a very skillful game.. the only real skill required is having decent coordination in your team, the actual game is very easy to play.
Chess must not be very competitive either, in fact the better players usually have LOWER apm than the casual players. Also, football (American) must not be very competitive either. They stand around for about 20- 30 seconds and pick out their play, then wait about another 5 seconds waiting to snap and calling audibles. Only then do they execute about a 10 second play. So much time spent not doing anything! Also in football, all the guy does is throw the ball. How hard is that? I can throw a ball! I can even but a tight spiral on it!
Or maybe since LoL is slower paced than SC it just doesn't require constant keyboard inputs. LoL is more about picking a character to perform a certain role, and acquiring the correct equipment to suit that role. That role also should change depending on the opposing team's composition and what items they select.
I think the problem we as SC players have with something like LoL is that it's team based compared to SC which is individual competition. I hear a lot of "LoL isn't very balanced!" and I think the idea behind that is that people don't like the idea that in a 1v1 battle some champions have a blatant advantage over others. LoL isn't about 1v1 fights or anything like that, like I recently started playing a support character. I usually end up with 2 kills at most by the end of a game, but my teammates are averaging many more kills than before I started playing an assist based character.
Sorry for all the huge long winded rant post, but I think the main reason for the hate towards LoL is a lack of understanding. I will admit, I play both it and SC2 often (not good at either of them lol) and i do think SC2 requires more skill. However, that doesn't mean I don't see LoL as extremely skill dependent. It's just a different type of skill.
Actually the best players have high APM in Chess, because they play blitz chess. And I don't think many people consider American football a sport requiring much skill compared to say soccer or tennis or whatever (for the reasons you listed). Sarcasm aside, the skill required to play LoL is basically that of the ability to not act like an idiot and play safely (and knowing how to coordinate well with your team). If you actually know and understand how to use your champion, and what items to buy (which can all be learned outside of the game) the game becomes very easy. Compare that with BW/SC2 where watching a replay and stealing someones build orders won't give you the ability to micro/macro as well as them, but I would say it's 100x easier to rip-off someone's play-style exactly in League of Legends because it isn't a very mechanically demanding game, nor is there a huge amount of strategy, and I don't think anyone who has ever played it could say it's demanding.
Also League of Legends has a lot of casualized aspects compared with DoTA and even HoN that make the game a lot easier to play, e.g. no denying, towers hit harder, you can leave your lane and back without much consequence, people generally die slower, small mistakes don't cost you the game, etc
On June 28 2011 00:09 Termit wrote: Sure LoL is free, but don't you have to like buy heroes and items in LoL to not get raped in games when the skill level is higher? If so, it feels kinda wierd to have "esport game" where you are forced to buy shit to play on the same terms as the others.
Like in WoW when it was a "esport game", it fucking sucked shit because some teams had the best items etc.
You have no idea what you are talking about do you? In pretty much any game that includes items/skills/weapons that are considered imbalanced, unfair, bad or whatever you wish are restricted for tournament use. I'm not sure if LoL does but I'm sure the pros play with the same items. When wow arena was played in tournaments you could choose whatever gear you wanted within certain limits to make it fair for everyone. Not sure where you pulled that bullshit statement from that there was a item imbalance between teams in WoW tournaments.
They play all the tournaments on a different client so I'm not entirely sure how it works out there, but everything you can buy with Riot Points (aka the microtransactions) can also be bought for currency you get after every game (influence points). The only limiting factor is time investment to unlocking everything if you don't buy Riot Points.
The only strictly Riot Point thing is skins which just change the graphics of your character.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
I have played war3, LoL and some HoN through the years and I still dont get whats going on That game needs a better spectating interface for once - I dont get how it attracted 200k+ viewers as it is.
He waited for the perfect moment to dive past the tower and get the kill and then evaded another hero who tried to kill him. Any sooner and the tower would have killed him and any later and he wouldn't have been able to use his R to close the gap. Is it really that hard to realize what went on if you played DotA and other mobas before?
You are right, I worded my comment wrong. sorry about that. The point I was trying to make was just that the spectator interface is so bad I was surprised that 200k+ players watched the stream.
Back on topic; I am sad to see Quake go but happy that such a popular game as LoL will help bring more eyes to major esports events.
That sucks, not interested in watching whatever LoL is. Probably won't pay attention to IEM at all now. So many other SC2 tournaments to watch as well. I thought Carmac was a hardcore quake fan? Oh well, now quakecon will be just that more epic each year!
On June 28 2011 07:12 mikyaJ wrote: That would actually be HoN And we all know how successful that is right now
Yeah, in LoL they removed some features and made game easier. So it's : Take game - copy - make casual - make f2p- add micro-transactions - add commercials and promote game in tournaments - print-screen 200k viewers- go to forums and post it with big trollface and "u mad?" words.
it was made by one of the original makers of dota to begin with how is this copying?
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
this vid doesnt impress me theres nothing special average joe cant do, when u watch programers playing QL/BW ur always like: wow theres no way in milion years i will be able to do that, so much respect for those guys putting alot of time and effort into mastering the game which is very challanging to the point it looks like they are bending the rules, very high skill ceiling is actually the reason why i called it e-Sport at the first place. Pretty sad to see those hardcore games precessors and creators of e-gaming getting replaced by dumbed down noob friendly games in the name of esports when in fact theres not so much sport left in them.
Oh wow...I just read through this thread and died a little inside...
I can understand why people do not want to watch LoL. You basically need a Ph.D in the game to actually enjoy the game. Just like some of my friends do not enjoy watching StarCraft because they cannot tell the difference between Protoss and Zerg plus they have to train their eyes to see the units well.
And fuck the casual game logic. That argument is just as legit as hearing a religious debate. "I am a Christian, atheists have no morals" "I am an atheist, religion causes violence." Stupid Stupid Stupid
It is a shame to see Quake live go, It is good to see new games like LoL rising up though, I just hope League of Legends does better here than they did at dreamhack with the many issues they had.
Hopefully lol will die a silent death after they realise there's no pause feature in it for disconnects and the finals turn into a 4v5. Really happy for SC2 though.
It is really unfortunate that QL has been removed. I sort of blame idSoftware for not properly promoting their game. At the time it was free(some items are free and others are premium based), browser based, and had matchmaking for several different game types.
Maybe this is the kick in the ass id needs to have to promote their game or maybe they simply just don't care...
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
Uh, all he did was hit R and right click a few times.. What's impressive about that?
You probably need about 30APM to play LoL at the highest level, it's not a very skillful game.. the only real skill required is having decent coordination in your team, the actual game is very easy to play.
Chess must not be very competitive either, in fact the better players usually have LOWER apm than the casual players. Also, football (American) must not be very competitive either. They stand around for about 20- 30 seconds and pick out their play, then wait about another 5 seconds waiting to snap and calling audibles. Only then do they execute about a 10 second play. So much time spent not doing anything! Also in football, all the guy does is throw the ball. How hard is that? I can throw a ball! I can even but a tight spiral on it!
Or maybe since LoL is slower paced than SC it just doesn't require constant keyboard inputs. LoL is more about picking a character to perform a certain role, and acquiring the correct equipment to suit that role. That role also should change depending on the opposing team's composition and what items they select.
I think the problem we as SC players have with something like LoL is that it's team based compared to SC which is individual competition. I hear a lot of "LoL isn't very balanced!" and I think the idea behind that is that people don't like the idea that in a 1v1 battle some champions have a blatant advantage over others. LoL isn't about 1v1 fights or anything like that, like I recently started playing a support character. I usually end up with 2 kills at most by the end of a game, but my teammates are averaging many more kills than before I started playing an assist based character.
Sorry for all the huge long winded rant post, but I think the main reason for the hate towards LoL is a lack of understanding. I will admit, I play both it and SC2 often (not good at either of them lol) and i do think SC2 requires more skill. However, that doesn't mean I don't see LoL as extremely skill dependent. It's just a different type of skill.
Actually the best players have high APM in Chess, because they play blitz chess.
Also League of Legends has a lot of casualized aspects compared with DoTA and even HoN that make the game a lot easier to play, e.g. no denying, towers hit harder, you can leave your lane and back without much consequence, people generally die slower, small mistakes don't cost you the game, etc
If you leave your lane and back for no reason you lose the tower. People die slower if you build tanky, buyt you can get oneshot if you don't get tanky items(In this respect people actually die faster than in DotA or HoN). Oh, and Blitz chess makes you have like 20-30 apm.
Have you played LoL?
Oh and I never watch counterstrike and actually prefer both Quake live and WoW over it, but I'm really happy about both SC2 and LoL.
Riot must be pouring all their money for the replacement of QL, which is a sad thing, really. Quake Live in my opinion is so much better to watch in an ESPORTS tournament. I've played LoL before, and it's amazing how little APM you need or skill you need at the game to win games. The only neccesary thing is audio chat with your teammates so you know what to do with your teammates and a basic understanding of the game's characters and abilities. But ok, I guess this will make some people happy..
On June 28 2011 09:01 ReaperX wrote: Riot must be pouring all their money for the replacement of QL, which is a sad thing, really. Quake Live in my opinion is so much better to watch in an ESPORTS tournament. I've played LoL before, and it's amazing how little APM you need or skill you need at the game to win games. The only neccesary thing is audio chat with your teammates so you know what to do with your teammates and a basic understanding of the game's characters and abilities. But ok, I guess this will make some people happy..
They don't really need to. Their Dream Hack numbers speak for themself. They used to. Maybe they still do though, but they have achieved popularity by now.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
this vid doesnt impress me, theres nothing special average joe cant do, when u watch programers playing QL/BW ur always like: wow theres no way in milion years i will be able to do that, so much respect for those guys putting so much time and effort into mastering the game which is very challanging to the point it looks like they are bending the rules, very high skill ceiling is actually the reason why i called it e-Sport at the first place. Pretty sad to see those hardcore games precessors and creators of e-gaming getting replaced by dumbed down noob friendly games in the name of esports where in fact theres not so much sport left in them.
I've watched footage of games I don't play and thought, "I can do that, that doesn't look that hard." That doesn't mean I was right.
I've also said that about watching games I have experience with, specifically BW and Street Fighter. Right before being proven wrong by actually trying whatever I saw.
Maybe you should try it? If it's so easy, put a team together. Why not? It should be easy money...right?
You don't have to be impressed by watching a pro play, but if you're going to dismiss something as being "so easy anyone can do it," be prepared to put up or shut up.
On June 28 2011 09:01 ReaperX wrote: Riot must be pouring all their money for the replacement of QL, which is a sad thing, really. Quake Live in my opinion is so much better to watch in an ESPORTS tournament. I've played LoL before, and it's amazing how little APM you need or skill you need at the game to win games. The only neccesary thing is audio chat with your teammates so you know what to do with your teammates and a basic understanding of the game's characters and abilities. But ok, I guess this will make some people happy..
Then by such logic, there should be very little competition which LoL has plenty of.
But interesting fact about LoL...it is a very easy game to pick up, but real fucking hard to master. Just like chess. It is a fact that LoL is incredibly competitive and very good tournament game, but whether it is exciting to watch is another story.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
this vid doesnt impress me theres nothing special average joe cant do, when u watch programers playing QL/BW ur always like: wow theres no way in milion years i will be able to do that, so much respect for those guys putting alot of time and effort into mastering the game which is very challanging to the point it looks like they are bending the rules, very high skill ceiling is actually the reason why i called it e-Sport at the first place. Pretty sad to see those hardcore games precessors and creators of e-gaming getting replaced by dumbed down noob friendly games in the name of esports when in fact theres not so much sport left in them.
I've also watched Flash play SCBW and say "That's not hard to do, I can do that" and I can understand perfectly how to do it etc but I still can't do it.
And for some reason only the people who play LoL are super impressed and the people who've never played the game say it's really easy. That makes sense..?
EDIT: So why it's impressive is first of all, it's 1v2 towerdive and second, you wouldn't think to towerdive a Jarvan with an alistar closeby, you blink to the minion that gives Mark barely enough range to hit him(And he used this skill instantly after without even stopping moving and at barely max range, if he had to blink again he wouldn't have had one left for the final escape as they take 20 seconds to get back), he also did it so quickly that the Jarvan didn't have proper time to react, any slower and he could have flag pulled himself to safety.
After that though, it's gamesense that he can go to the top brush and not try to run another way or something as he knew the Alistar was incoming instead of running straight into him or something. He also knew the exact range of Alistars headbutt and hence at that exact timing did his blink so that they'd essentially swap places. And the end was pretty simple.
I'm not sure why the person is regarded as by far the best Akali player in the world and why everyone thinks that no one can do similiar moves... because every LoL player is a noob? That'd just be an extremely naive statement to make.
I remember the quake live stream having something like 900 viewers. Not a number they'd want to carry around, so it makes sense to replace.
LoL on the other hand had regular 100k+ viewing audiences, due to actual players being routed from the game to the tournament. There's no reason that Riot won't do the same again, so to put LoL in the roster guarantees a ton more viewers than quake live could ever get.
Sad to see quake go Always watched it along with sc2, and it's one of the few remaining FPS games that are good to spectate. Every time I've watched it it has impressed me.
You would think that ESL would at least wait till DOTA 2 to see how that turns out. LoL seems to lack a lot of stuff for spectating, ie. spectator mode/replays/pause feature etc. Seems Riot had the money and views to get the foot in the door. And I'm not so sure all those viewers will be consistent watchers, Quake has had a dedicated scene for over 15 years, and LoL is pretty new and I'm not sure of the longevity of it.
MOBA games in general are kind of hard to spectate, but I would want to wait and see which comes out on top as a better esport game.
I was always under the impression that LOL was more a team game that you dick around in to pass the time. The difference in skill between players is pretty much negligible.
On June 28 2011 09:34 Ghola wrote: I was always under the impression that LOL was more a team game that you dick around in to pass the time. The difference in skill between players is pretty much negligible in that game.
I would have to disagree with you here. LoL is a lot more steep than a lot of people would imagine.
However! I also am extremely disappointed that they chose LoL over Quake Live. Quake Live is something I'm always clearly pumped for, while LoL seems (at least to me) more enjoyable when you're in the driver seat. I'm saddened that they sacrificed a really skill based game to gain stream viewers thanks to its huge presence at Dreamhack.
On June 28 2011 09:39 Elefanto wrote: I always loved to watch quake, was super impressed by the top players. their aim, movement, how they remember the cooldowns of armors etc.
You didn't have to understand the game or played before to know how difficult it is to pull the stuff they do. I'm sad
Indeed, watching someone who is masterful at QL like Cooller is just fucking amazing. So gd impressive.
I've played all three of them, and can safely say that the skillcap for LoL < HoN <<<< DotA
I just wish DotA 2 will come soon, that way we'll have the real thing with a modern day interface. I've also watched streams of all 3 games, and without a doubt the most epic and impressive skill is seen in DotA.
VP back in the days... MYM... DTS... EHOME... Deity... LGD.. incredible stuff going on there. The big problem for DotA is actually the incredibly steep learning curve and the asshole community, if icefrog and valve can fix that without dumbing the game down, they'll have a winner.
Really sad to see QL dropped. There were rumours about it after last world champion ships but I always hoped they'd work it out. Especially now with DH having the first TDM tournament which was pretty awesome aswell
On June 28 2011 09:42 mordk wrote: I've played all three of them, and can safely say that the skillcap for LoL < HoN <<<< DotA
I just wish DotA 2 will come soon, that way we'll have the real thing with a modern day interface. I've also watched streams of all 3 games, and without a doubt the most epic and impressive skill is seen in DotA.
VP back in the days... MYM... DTS... EHOME... Deity... LGD.. incredible stuff going on there. The big problem for DotA is actually the incredibly steep learning curve and the asshole community, if icefrog and valve can fix that without dumbing the game down, they'll have a winner.
DotA 2 will kill LoL, HoN and vanilla DotA. I can guarantee. Yeah, I agree that DotA has the world community out there, and I don't think that DotA 2 or Valve will fix it. <_< I hope Valve adds a decent mmr system, so people play with those with the same skill level as they learn how to master the game.
Oh, and DotA 2 will be coming out by the end of this year. :D
Happy to see LoL get its chance as a main line up item and it will be interesting to see how much staying power it has.Quake is a great game and I prefer it to CS but I think the general trend in shooters has been moving towards team based games for quite a while now.
On June 28 2011 10:07 Tosho wrote: Happy to see LoL get its chance as a main line up item and it will be interesting to see how much staying power it has.Quake is a great game and I prefer it to CS but I think the general trend in shooters has been moving towards team based games for quite a while now.
I feel like a big reason why Quakelive doesn't get that many viewers for events is that alot of people who may want to watch it don't know about it going on. If there was a site like TL for QL or if the main QL page had streamlinks and better information about upcoming events then I think they could get pretty good viewernumbers for big events.
An issue with Quake is that it has a much steeper learningcurve than the modern FPS games, in Quake you get completely destroyed by good players for a long time before you learn the game. Then when you get good at the game you still get completely destroyed by people who are amazing at it :D Imagine people who have grown up playing Call of duty, Counter strike and Halo if any FPS games at all but never touched any game like Doom, Quake, Unreal tournament, Painkiller etc they are going to have a tough time getting into Quake Live.
Once you are good at Quake you know how awesome it is compared to pretty much every other FPS game, most players probably give up when they get destroyed in their first FFA game though :/
On June 28 2011 10:22 Gurgl wrote: I feel like a big reason why Quakelive doesn't get that many viewers for events is that alot of people who may want to watch it don't know about it going on. If there was a site like TL for QL or if the main QL page had streamlinks and better information about upcoming events then I think they could get pretty good viewernumbers for big events.
An issue with Quake is that it has a much steeper learningcurve than the modern FPS games, in Quake you get completely destroyed by good players for a long time before you learn the game. Then when you get good at the game you still get completely destroyed by people who are amazing at it :D Imagine people who have grown up playing Call of duty, Counter strike and Halo if any FPS games at all but never touched any game like Doom, Quake, Unreal tournament, Painkiller etc they are going to have a tough time getting into Quake Live.
Once you are good at Quake you know how awesome it is compared to pretty much every other FPS game, most players probably give up when they get destroyed in their first FFA game though :/
quake has esr, but thats nothing on the level of teamliquid or clgaming site. i think id needed to somewhat advertise dreamhack. it wasnt anywhere on the news feed on the quakelive site or no banners.
Really going to miss Quake. It's what got me into esports to begin with and I think it was an extremely difficult game to master, by far the most interesting competitive fps game to play. Sucks that the playerbase went stagnant, but I'm actually really glad (and a bit surprised?!) to see so much support for the game here. I think it's had its run now and I'm fairly certain that duel fps will be pretty much forgotten going forward; but I hope the remaining community is still strong enough for ID to at least keep the servers running. I still love hopping on for a quick duel, hope some here still do the same from time-to-time.
Happy for all of the competitive league players out there despite my feelings that sc2 and Quake are the superior competitive games. Riot's done a great job at pushing the competitive side of the game and it was only a matter of time before this happened.
OK, so, $635k purse means $127k per tournament, assuming they are evenly divided. If we take the past as precedent, team game players make half as much as Starcraft per player. LoL and Counterstrike have 5-man teams each, so dividing 127,000 by 6 (1 for SC + 2.5 for LoL + 2.5 for CS) we get ~$21k. So, hopefully that will mean the top prize in SC2 is in the realm of $10-15k, with trailing $5k, 3k, 2k. If so, that would mean we could see some serious talent showing up for these events. Crossing fingers! I just hope they are qualification-based and not invite-based so the best players can shine.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the Way...
But Yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
I think LoL deserves to do whatever it wants; if viewers want to watch it (and they clearly do) then it can be in any tournament that takes it. However, linking one short clip doesn't prove it takes any more skill than anything. DotA has been doing far more impressive stuff for years, on top of having more difficult mechanics and requiring more map awareness.
its understandable why they removed QL for LoL. QL isnt that big anymore in terms of viewers, and with LoL breaking the viewing record everytime another one of there tournaments come out, of course they are going to want more viewers cause that means that there sponsors will pay more the more viewers they get. It's all about the money and LoL has the biggest viewer base.
Why is it bad for LoL to be this popular and an e-sport? E-sports is spreading! Hurray hurray! Just because it is an e-sport does not mean you have to like it. Not all football fans enjoy watching golf. It would not take a rocket scientist to figure out what the argument between these two guys would be.
Hell...I hate Call of Duty with a passion but it would be wonderful if the e-sport scene there became bigger. However, should it become a mainstream e-sport, I would want MW 1 over Black Ops the way many people want CS 1.6 over Source.
And the reaction towards the removal of Quake Live seems to be like a Jazz concert being canceled only to be replaced with a Justin Bieber concert even though no one watches Jazz. It is simply superior in their opinion, but not worth your time watching.
On June 28 2011 08:48 Shiragaku wrote: Oh wow...I just read through this thread and died a little inside...
I can understand why people do not want to watch LoL. You basically need a Ph.D in the game to actually enjoy the game. Just like some of my friends do not enjoy watching StarCraft because they cannot tell the difference between Protoss and Zerg plus they have to train their eyes to see the units well.
And fuck the casual game logic. That argument is just as legit as hearing a religious debate. "I am a Christian, atheists have no morals" "I am an atheist, religion causes violence." Stupid Stupid Stupid
Quoted for truth this is the exact same thing as when the BW elitists said SC2 was too casual and that it would never last, but SC2 still continues to grow.
Also why do people hate on LoL when it's bringing in more people to esports; isn't that what it's all about at the end of the day that more people are getting into esports even if its through a "casual" game who cares it's a good thing.
Do remember that sponsors want to see results as well, which means sponsors want to see higher viewership thus maybe pressuring for more popular games.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the Way...
But Yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
I think LoL deserves to do whatever it wants; if viewers want to watch it (and they clearly do) then it can be in any tournament that takes it. However, linking one short clip doesn't prove it takes any more skill than anything. DotA has been doing far more impressive stuff for years, on top of having more difficult mechanics and requiring more map awareness.
Case and point why I fell LoL gets too much recognition. It aggravates me but it is what esports boils down too at the moment. I prefer games with a much higher skill ceiling, and LoL does not fit into it.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the Way...
But Yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
I think LoL deserves to do whatever it wants; if viewers want to watch it (and they clearly do) then it can be in any tournament that takes it. However, linking one short clip doesn't prove it takes any more skill than anything. DotA has been doing far more impressive stuff for years, on top of having more difficult mechanics and requiring more map awareness.
Case and point why I fell LoL gets too much recognition. It aggravates me but it is what esports boils down too at the moment. I prefer games with a much higher skill ceiling, and LoL does not fit into it.
Ah...so LoL does not have a high enough skill ceiling? Can you explain why that is the case?
I am glad that SC2 is still rocking, but am a little upset about Quake getting da Boot. I hope all the LoL fans will be happy though. As long as we can keep getting good tournaments i will sure be happy.
QuakeLive removed!?They MUST be kidding.This game is highly competitive,how can they remove it? o_O And the matches are always entertaining cause it's a crazy fast paced shooter which requires a insane amount of skill.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the Way...
But Yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
I think LoL deserves to do whatever it wants; if viewers want to watch it (and they clearly do) then it can be in any tournament that takes it. However, linking one short clip doesn't prove it takes any more skill than anything. DotA has been doing far more impressive stuff for years, on top of having more difficult mechanics and requiring more map awareness.
Case and point why I fell LoL gets too much recognition. It aggravates me but it is what esports boils down too at the moment. I prefer games with a much higher skill ceiling, and LoL does not fit into it.
Ah...so LoL does not have a high enough skill ceiling? Can you explain why that is the case?
Its a lot of comparing to DotA. It would take a lot of explaining and most would disagree. But if you were really interested I could list the main problems LoL has.
On June 27 2011 23:20 GTR wrote: what a travesty that quake live was shafted for league of legends.
i guess riot are pouring the money in for the game to be a major ESPORTS title.
RIOT better poor the money in the european servers, they are the most horrible online experience you can imagine. They miss out on so much money just becuase of 1 hour queues if you even can get in them and random kicks from their system and then you have to queue again, rofl.
But I like LoL :D and with SC II in the program it will be epic I hope :D
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the Way...
But Yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
I think LoL deserves to do whatever it wants; if viewers want to watch it (and they clearly do) then it can be in any tournament that takes it. However, linking one short clip doesn't prove it takes any more skill than anything. DotA has been doing far more impressive stuff for years, on top of having more difficult mechanics and requiring more map awareness.
Case and point why I fell LoL gets too much recognition. It aggravates me but it is what esports boils down too at the moment. I prefer games with a much higher skill ceiling, and LoL does not fit into it.
Ah...so LoL does not have a high enough skill ceiling? Can you explain why that is the case?
Its a lot of comparing to DotA. It would take a lot of explaining and most would disagree. But if you were really interested I could list the main problems LoL has.
I play LoL a crapton, and I can say for sure that LoL has less skill requirements than any other MOBA (BLC, HoN, DOTA, DOTA2)
This is because: The control system for LoL is terrible. Like, seriously bad. You are "autolocked" into one champion. This severely reduces the game's skill cap, because you can only control one unit at a time - ever. Sure, there are champions that can create a "double", but there's only 2 of these champions, and you only control up to 1 additional "unit". So basically, in SC2 terms it's like controlling a single infestor or ghost or high templar for the entire game.
In DOTA and HoN, you can box several units (much like SC2) and the control panel will show all the units you've selected, with one "main" unit. I think this is a spinoff of how Blizzard made WC3. In BLC, your single champion has like 14-16 moves and skills, compared to LoL (1 champion, 4 skills, possibly 1-2 other item-skills).
There's plenty of other reasons why LoL is not considered very hard to play (no denying, no loss of money upon death) and many features of LoL that cause people to further mistake LoL to be a noob game (cartoonish graphics, free to play, simple HUD, etc), but I think the control system is why LoL is a terrible esports game.
What a huge disappointment. To replace Quake with LoL is laughable. I've played LoL during beta and a few times here and there, and I couldn't stand it. No deny ----> no lane creep/lane control. No tp scrolls ----> no map awareness needed.
edit: Read a few posts above, forgot to mention the wards, couriers, creeps you can control, Hon/dota Items actually giving active abilities instead of (+X regen, +X crit, +X damage, +X spell power). I also watched the LoL video linked earlier. A dude tower dives and kills one guy then blinks away, impressive stuff. Def. play of the year material.
I agree with the majority sentiment in this thread; purely from a spectator's point of view, i don't see how LoL could be chosen over Quake, particularly in terms of entertainment and excitement. Out of all the MOBA games, i am a bit unsure as to how LoL proves to be the most enticing.
Nice to see SC2 maintain itself in there and the rather tasty prize purse
On June 28 2011 14:35 Daozzt wrote: What a huge disappointment. To replace Quake with LoL is laughable. I've played LoL during beta and a few times here and there, and I couldn't stand it. No deny ----> no lane creep/lane control. No tp scrolls ----> no map awareness needed.
As far as I can tell wards don't have cooldowns either. Not to mention normal wards are useless, invis reveal wards have as much sight range as normal wards.
I love quake and always will and I will be honest and say that I didn't expect QL to be around much longer so I was ready for the eventuality of this day.
It does upset me thought that such an INFERIOR game is replacing it.
Hopefully DOTA2 will replace it as quick as possible.
its disgraceful. as the term "esports" would make one assume some skill involved in the games i think it would have make sense to have 1 RTS, 1 1v1 fast-FPS and 1 tactical team FPS. what ESL trying to do is pulling a kindergarden under the term e-sports with replacing quake with lol
On June 28 2011 14:55 50mineral wrote: its disgraceful. as the term "esports" would make one assume some skill involved in the games i think it would have make sense to have 1 RTS, 1 1v1 fast-FPS and 1 tactical team FPS. what ESL trying to do is pulling a kindergarden under the term e-sports with replacing quake with lol
What's disgraceful is this kind of attitude.
E-sports is happening right now. Who cares if its Starcraft, Warcraft, Minecraft or Angry Birds.
For the first time in human history, nerds are able to show up in force and get paid to do the things that we love to do.
You guys are fucking elitist bigots saying that any game doesn't deserve to be on a big stage. Every game deserves to be on a big stage, and your cheating yourself and the entire industry if you argue to the contrary.
On June 27 2011 23:59 Velr wrote: Quake Live has like no community?
I like Quake, watching a stream makes me dizzy... But i actually every time wondered why it actually was still in tournaments with that small of a community? I'm kinda sad that it's gone now but understand it completly.
But why LoL? Is there seriously no better alternative at the moment? WTF?
LoL attracts most viewers. Not sure what else they would or even could pick.
They didn't pick LoL because of the viewers factor, but because Riot (LoL's producer) spends ton of money in advertising and promoting. Mine is just an assumption, most likely to be the truth.
You are more right then you know ESL does not pick the best esports.. they pick whats best for business. It's a solid and 'safe' model to run a company. However, for 10 years they have been around and running on the backs of those games that ARE about eSports.. and a shift to a game only because money talks will take them down the wrong path. I wish the best for both ESL and LoL.. I just hope they see it for what it is.. and if they really wish for it to be about eSports.. both companies will find a way to make those changes needed.
BTW.. Cyber Sports Network still supports Quake Live 100%! oh.. and LoL and SC2 and other games where there is a community to support!
For the "FOR ESPORTS!!!!??!!" attitude of the SC2 community I get dissapointed by alot of the opinions expressed in this thread. The reason they've chosen League of Legends is obvious, people love the game. Quake Live is a great game, but it has an obscure fanbase compared to LoL and the competitive haydays of the traditional FPS are a thing of the past - CoD4 and Halo have seen to this, and they are games with a much lower (but still comparable) skill cap than Quake.
I could make the same arguments for not including Starcraft 2 over Broodwar in the WCG, but I realize the way the wind is blowing. I also know that Esports will not grow if people are told what game can be can esport. There is no purely intuitive reason why Starcraft 2 is such a popular Esport now, other than the passion of it's community. I do not for a second see why I should feel bad watching people play a less skillfull version of DoTA then a less skilled version of Broodwar.
But the interesting question is why? It's pretty obvious, the games are casually excessable and have soared in popularity due to internet streaming amongst fans and professional players. It's not for a certain group of enlightened people to decide which games become popular - thats decided by the passion and attitude of the community of that game. If in fact the skill ceiling is as low as people make it out to be, the metagame will stanate and it will become terribly boring to watch and eventually lose popularity.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
lol despite not having a single idea whats going on the screen (i.e. only those can watch and appreciate who plays it unlike quake) i can tell every decent quake/starcraft player just laughs with full mouth when it comes to skill and these dota games. personally know a guy who got really good in dota, but he couldnt even reach midskill in quake, he agreed too that these games are far easier.
wow. Even though it was ages ago I played quake (when quake arena was new) I always followed the scene because the games at pro level are really exciting.
Really sad to see that Quake was removed. I guess LoL has grown really big.
Is LoL a "bigger" game than SC2? Does it have more spectators, anyone know?
On June 28 2011 14:55 50mineral wrote: its disgraceful. as the term "esports" would make one assume some skill involved in the games i think it would have make sense to have 1 RTS, 1 1v1 fast-FPS and 1 tactical team FPS. what ESL trying to do is pulling a kindergarden under the term e-sports with replacing quake with lol
What's disgraceful is this kind of attitude.
E-sports is happening right now. Who cares if its Starcraft, Warcraft, Minecraft or Angry Birds.
For the first time in human history, nerds are able to show up in force and get paid to do the things that we love to do.
You guys are fucking elitist bigots saying that any game doesn't deserve to be on a big stage. Every game deserves to be on a big stage, and your cheating yourself and the entire industry if you argue to the contrary.
just letting you know esports happening for 10+ years now, but back than the likes of you just got stomped and left in tears so i understand, for you its happening now.
e-sports as its in the name, should stay competitive and reward the best. does other sports being renewed every 5 years or so? no. football was football 50 years ago, and will be 50 years later too. if you want to make living out of it, you either good or fuck off simple as that. obv for short-term profit its easier to put popular games to rotation every 2-3 year, but thats just conflict the main idea of, you know, e-SPORTS.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the Way...
But Yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
I think LoL deserves to do whatever it wants; if viewers want to watch it (and they clearly do) then it can be in any tournament that takes it. However, linking one short clip doesn't prove it takes any more skill than anything. DotA has been doing far more impressive stuff for years, on top of having more difficult mechanics and requiring more map awareness.
Case and point why I fell LoL gets too much recognition. It aggravates me but it is what esports boils down too at the moment. I prefer games with a much higher skill ceiling, and LoL does not fit into it.
Ah...so LoL does not have a high enough skill ceiling? Can you explain why that is the case?
Its a lot of comparing to DotA. It would take a lot of explaining and most would disagree. But if you were really interested I could list the main problems LoL has.
I play LoL a crapton, and I can say for sure that LoL has less skill requirements than any other MOBA (BLC, HoN, DOTA, DOTA2)
This is because: The control system for LoL is terrible. Like, seriously bad. You are "autolocked" into one champion. This severely reduces the game's skill cap, because you can only control one unit at a time - ever. Sure, there are champions that can create a "double", but there's only 2 of these champions, and you only control up to 1 additional "unit". So basically, in SC2 terms it's like controlling a single infestor or ghost or high templar for the entire game.
In DOTA and HoN, you can box several units (much like SC2) and the control panel will show all the units you've selected, with one "main" unit. I think this is a spinoff of how Blizzard made WC3. In BLC, your single champion has like 14-16 moves and skills, compared to LoL (1 champion, 4 skills, possibly 1-2 other item-skills).
There's plenty of other reasons why LoL is not considered very hard to play (no denying, no loss of money upon death) and many features of LoL that cause people to further mistake LoL to be a noob game (cartoonish graphics, free to play, simple HUD, etc), but I think the control system is why LoL is a terrible esports game.
LoL is to DotA as SC2 is to BW. I guess that means SC2 is a terrible esports game too.
ESL is a bad organization, they owe alot of prizemoney to players and teams of different games. Until they payout everything they owe and give a public excuse for their unprofessional behaviour I don't care that much about their tournaments when there are so many better ones around.
Don't expect to see any prizemoney if you are going to any ESL tournament to compete.
On June 28 2011 05:17 Pratoss wrote: so many LoL haters rofl it may be an easier game then DotA and HoN but those two games are nearly dead in the same sense bw (foreigner scene) is as well.
For E-sports to grow you need viewers and HoN and DotA wouldn't get anywhere near the numbers LoL can and most likely will if Riot keeps promoting it.
too bad no one wants e-sports to grow if shitty, casual games like LoL are even considered to be 'e-sports'
the only reason LoL gets those numbers is because it's free, not because the game is good, but keep trying
how can people be picky about what grows e-sports.. once e-sports is huge its ok to be picky but how can u hate on something thats growing e-sports? makes no sense..
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
That's pretty easy to do (srsly lol).
I don't play professionally and i can do that as well as any average player in WC3:FT (Warden) blink and Shadow Strike. Hide then blink again pwned alot of heroes with this imba skill.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
lol despite not having a single idea whats going on the screen (i.e. only those can watch and appreciate who plays it unlike quake) i can tell every decent quake/starcraft player just laughs with full mouth when it comes to skill and these dota games. personally know a guy who got really good in dota, but he couldnt even reach midskill in quake, he agreed too that these games are far easier.
Everyone thinks they're 'really good' at DotA. If I haven't heard of your friend, he probably was not any good.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
lol despite not having a single idea whats going on the screen (i.e. only those can watch and appreciate who plays it unlike quake) i can tell every decent quake/starcraft player just laughs with full mouth when it comes to skill and these dota games. personally know a guy who got really good in dota, but he couldnt even reach midskill in quake, he agreed too that these games are far easier.
Everyone thinks they're 'really good' at DotA. If I haven't heard of your friend, he probably was not any good.
being top 10 countrywise and taking games off of several bigger teams like mYm, but anyway i have no idea it was years ago what i know in quake he could never be even top 50 countrywise so for the comparsion part i think its right
On June 28 2011 15:34 papaz wrote: wow. Even though it was ages ago I played quake (when quake arena was new) I always followed the scene because the games at pro level are really exciting.
Really sad to see that Quake was removed. I guess LoL has grown really big.
Is LoL a "bigger" game than SC2? Does it have more spectators, anyone know?
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
lol despite not having a single idea whats going on the screen (i.e. only those can watch and appreciate who plays it unlike quake) i can tell every decent quake/starcraft player just laughs with full mouth when it comes to skill and these dota games. personally know a guy who got really good in dota, but he couldnt even reach midskill in quake, he agreed too that these games are far easier.
Everyone thinks they're 'really good' at DotA. If I haven't heard of your friend, he probably was not any good.
being top 10 countrywise and taking games off of several bigger teams like mYm, but anyway i have no idea it was years ago what i know in quake he could never be even top 50 countrywise so for the comparsion part i think its right
This is the most retarded argument i have ever read.
I was, a long time ago, really good in SC/BW (in my country). I was, a long time ago, really, really good in WC3 (in my country and also pretty good europe wide). I tryed some Quake, Half Life... And never got close to the Top, i got to a point were i wasn't a 100% freekill but not much further. Dota, SC/BW, Quake and CS all require very diffrent skillsets. Comparing them is just stupid.
It's like comparing... Football, Volleyball and Basketball... Just because you play all these games with a Ball you won't be as good/talented/gifted/whatever in the 3 games, no matter how much you train... One of it will suit you the best.
On June 28 2011 15:47 Gurgl wrote: ESL is a bad organization, they owe alot of prizemoney to players and teams of different games. Until they payout everything they owe and give a public excuse for their unprofessional behaviour I don't care that much about their tournaments when there are so many better ones around.
Don't expect to see any prizemoney if you are going to any ESL tournament to compete.
You either confuse ESL with ESWC, you are uninformed or this is defamation.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the Way...
But Yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
I think LoL deserves to do whatever it wants; if viewers want to watch it (and they clearly do) then it can be in any tournament that takes it. However, linking one short clip doesn't prove it takes any more skill than anything. DotA has been doing far more impressive stuff for years, on top of having more difficult mechanics and requiring more map awareness.
Case and point why I fell LoL gets too much recognition. It aggravates me but it is what esports boils down too at the moment. I prefer games with a much higher skill ceiling, and LoL does not fit into it.
Ah...so LoL does not have a high enough skill ceiling? Can you explain why that is the case?
Its a lot of comparing to DotA. It would take a lot of explaining and most would disagree. But if you were really interested I could list the main problems LoL has.
I play LoL a crapton, and I can say for sure that LoL has less skill requirements than any other MOBA (BLC, HoN, DOTA, DOTA2)
This is because: The control system for LoL is terrible. Like, seriously bad. You are "autolocked" into one champion. This severely reduces the game's skill cap, because you can only control one unit at a time - ever. Sure, there are champions that can create a "double", but there's only 2 of these champions, and you only control up to 1 additional "unit". So basically, in SC2 terms it's like controlling a single infestor or ghost or high templar for the entire game.
In DOTA and HoN, you can box several units (much like SC2) and the control panel will show all the units you've selected, with one "main" unit. I think this is a spinoff of how Blizzard made WC3. In BLC, your single champion has like 14-16 moves and skills, compared to LoL (1 champion, 4 skills, possibly 1-2 other item-skills).
There's plenty of other reasons why LoL is not considered very hard to play (no denying, no loss of money upon death) and many features of LoL that cause people to further mistake LoL to be a noob game (cartoonish graphics, free to play, simple HUD, etc), but I think the control system is why LoL is a terrible esports game.
LoL is to DotA as SC2 is to BW. I guess that means SC2 is a terrible esports game too.
Nope, completely wrong. SC2 simplified the UI and added a few features, but didn't take away the complexity of the unit relationships, the variety of viable strategies, and so many other features that are in the heart of SC. Plus, SC2 requires a ton of multitasking, even with MBS, unlimited groups, automining and smart casting.
LoL striped DotA bare of all the features that make the latter a complex game. They removed creep denying so skilled creepers matter less, made towers stronger so the early game is a lot safer, changed the game's pace, so little advantages are less important in time, made dying less punishing so players can take safer risks (which makes strategy less important), and many other things that are essential to making DotA as good as it is.
The changes are so radical, that it's only comparable to giving starcraft auto building orders and auto rallying units to your army and such nonsense, or like giving the AI the possibility of autobuilding supply structures whenever a supplyblock is near, or like, making all races equal, such ridiculous stuff. They changed the game completely, they only followed the basis of a model, they didn't make the same game.
SC2, in contrast, has pretty much the same mechanics, with an improved AI and UI. This comes with a reduction in the difficulty, but as players go better and better, they push the boundaries of the game, and the skill ceiling isn't nearly reached yet, that's a sign of a healthy e-sport.
TLDR: SC2 is very similar to BW, except with a streamlining of UI and AI. LoL is a completely different game from DotA, they changed the things that made the game great, and turned it into smth more casual.
I talk to people, they've never even heard of Quake Live. These people are gamers even, I play sc2 with them often. There is no advertising or anything at all for Quake, hardly anyones heard of it. I feel that it could have a larger fanbase if id did a better job, it's a well good enough game.
i think that lol is good for fun... but thats it... i enjoy playing it, but it takes no skill.... i mean in comparation with dota even hon.... everyone awaits dota 2 so.... it's fun for spectators, maybe cuz it's full of colors
LoL gets popular because unlike most games now-a-days the developers listen to the people who are playing, so they are always balancing, tweaking, and changing things. Most game companies toss out a game every 2 years because it's a title and they know people will just by the same game over and over and over again.
I hope you can give this game a chance and you can try to enjoy it without extremely negative thoughts coming in with barely any knowledge of the game or skill level demanded to compete at these levels.
On June 28 2011 15:47 Gurgl wrote: ESL is a bad organization, they owe alot of prizemoney to players and teams of different games. Until they payout everything they owe and give a public excuse for their unprofessional behaviour I don't care that much about their tournaments when there are so many better ones around.
Don't expect to see any prizemoney if you are going to any ESL tournament to compete.
You either confuse ESL with ESWC, you are uninformed or this is defamation.
On June 28 2011 17:42 Norway wrote: LoL gets popular because unlike most games now-a-days the developers listen to the people who are playing, so they are always balancing, tweaking, and changing things. Most game companies toss out a game every 2 years because it's a title and they know people will just by the same game over and over and over again.
I hope you can give this game a chance and you can try to enjoy it without extremely negative thoughts coming in with barely any knowledge of the game or skill level demanded to compete at these levels.
You think everyone bashing the game doesn't know a thing about it?
On June 28 2011 17:42 Norway wrote: LoL gets popular because unlike most games now-a-days the developers listen to the people who are playing, so they are always balancing, tweaking, and changing things. Most game companies toss out a game every 2 years because it's a title and they know people will just by the same game over and over and over again.
I hope you can give this game a chance and you can try to enjoy it without extremely negative thoughts coming in with barely any knowledge of the game or skill level demanded to compete at these levels.
You think everyone bashing the game doesn't know a thing about it?
Not all, however based on the comments it becomes apparent that not everyone is on the same level. LoL is more marketable otherwise they wouldn't have put it in the tourney.
I would dare to say that only bw's learning curve exceeds quake. Some people that have been playing it for more than 10 years still can't break through the pinnacle of the game. Being the father of e-sports, quake is a series which has had more than 5 different competitive games/mods which require unique sets of skills and thinking patterns (quakeworld, quake 2, quake 3, cpma, quake 4, quake live).. In addition to aim, you need to have great timing skills (the ability to do simple math in less than a second - and even if it's only adding or subtracting 25 or 35 to two digit numbers, you have to do that under pressure and keep your composure), evaluating enemy's stack (i.e. amount of health and armor based on their pickups and damage you did to them), you have to predict your opponents movement based on item timing/enemy positioning/their stack/your positioning/knowledge of their playstyle/current score/weapon control and denial/area control/a lot more. You have to know the range at which you hear enemy footsteps and sounds of item pickups without ever seeing them, finding enemies patterns, mastering your own movement and map progression, you need to know what weapon is best in a given situation, know the fluidity of the map (with every nook and cranny), etc. quake is as hardcore as it gets, in terms of a first perspective shooter.
Everyone just chill out. Competitive LoL is, at the moment, a kin to what competitive World of Warcraft was--a complete joke in player skill when compared to other games, but 'fun' and have a huge audience. If Riot can get their shit together LoL could be massive. I for one am a HUGE fan of LoL and played in a lot of competitive leagues back in DoTA, and yet it still makes me me feel sick seeing people getting paid huge chunks of money for being so good at such easy games. It's like they get paid because of personality and audience rather than skill, because the game inherently doesn't contain that much.
That being said I really think people discredit the skill that is required in LoL. Yeah, it's not as high as DoTA or SC, but it at least has more than WoW...right guys?
But just wait, LoL will definitely fall the way of competitive WoW eventually if Riot doesn't do something.
really sad that they didn`t show qlive anymore ... LoL surely is extreme popular, but I don`t like it at all. played it once and had the feeling that most of the people playing it are under 12years..or behave like that :S
I know its slightly off topic but want to grasp the chance and ask anyway: Is there a kinda TL.net for QL? I wanted to follow the QL scene a bit since I think its a great spectator game. So I would appreciate some page on the inet where one can see some upcoming events and so on. Thanks guys!
On June 28 2011 18:14 Titorelli wrote: I know its slightly off topic but want to grasp the chance and ask anyway: Is there a kinda TL.net for QL? I wanted to follow the QL scene a bit since I think its a great spectator game. So I would appreciate some page on the inet where one can see some upcoming events and so on. Thanks guys!
www.esreality.com is a good site for quakelive news. If you want to play quakelive then www.quakelive.com is the place to go, it's free and awesome
All of a sudden everyone and their grandmother is a huge Quake Fan. Cant understand this, if so many would watch the Quake Events, ESL would still have them in their Show! But its not like that, i guess everyone just likes to complain about it for the sake of it.
Has anyone ever watched a LoL cast? So freaking boring-- even worse than WoW. I don't know how this game could be an e-sport. I'm not a huge fan of Quake Live, but it was fairly entertaining to watch. If it had to go I wish they would have replaced it with a more viewer-friendly game like some fighter like Street Fighter 4 or I dunno, whatever the newest Battlefield game is.
I have nothing against LoL or DotA, and hope LoL can help grow e-sports since Riot seem pretty dedicated to doing so (compared to Blizzard anyway), but as someone who's never played LoL I tried watching the DH stream and most of the time I either couldn't tell what was going on very well, due to the amount of heroes, spells, item abilities and so on clogging up the screen (none of which I knew what they were doing) or the game was in the mid-stage and nothing was happening. I found even DotA was more interesting to watch, although only barely, since I'd played WC3 and most abilities/animations were familiar. I had fun switching over to Quake Live during the last IEM whenever nothing SC2 was happening, so I'm sad to see it go, but I'm watching for SC2 so I don't really care too much what other games are being played.
I like that LoL is added to the IEM roster. But it is pretty sad that Quake had to leave. Would be better if we had 4 games this year. But sometimes the older games have to make place for the newer ones.
How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
On June 28 2011 17:42 Norway wrote: LoL gets popular because unlike most games now-a-days the developers listen to the people who are playing, so they are always balancing, tweaking, and changing things. Most game companies toss out a game every 2 years because it's a title and they know people will just by the same game over and over and over again.
I hope you can give this game a chance and you can try to enjoy it without extremely negative thoughts coming in with barely any knowledge of the game or skill level demanded to compete at these levels.
You think everyone bashing the game doesn't know a thing about it?
Not all, however based on the comments it becomes apparent that not everyone is on the same level. LoL is more marketable otherwise they wouldn't have put it in the tourney.
I don't remember anyone saying that LoL players were all on the same level. I didn't go through the 30 pages worth of posts here but the ones I did people were commenting on how LoL is a dumbed down version of DotA or HoN. Which it is, for reasons other people have already stated(i.e. creep denying, no gold loss on death) I haven't seen a post that bashed LoL players yet. Not to say that it hasn't happened but they are far less then the ones explaining why they feel the game isn't worthy of being an e-sport.
Myself I watched a couple of games during the semi-finals and finals and I wasn't wow'ed by what I saw. Anything a player did didn't look like something I couldn't do. There was no incredible micro, no crazy reflexes, etc... Not to say that the players don't have those abilities but the game doesn't allow you to benefit if you do have them. What did separate those players from the rest was great decision making and team work. When I would watch DotA though there were pros who could deny almost every creep, you would see insane jukes while people were chasing others through the forest, ridiculous pudge hooks, priestess arrows, and so on. And when watching SC2 and see even more incredible stuff. ridiculous micro and macro, multitasking, unit splittings, insane awareness to the point some players see every drop incoming and even see observers without the need of detection.
The reason LoL is being put into IEM is because they put up really high numbers during DH. I believe I heard it was around 160,000 viewers. The more viewers you have the more money comes in. They probably got those viewers because Riot put up a $100,000 prize pool and it also helped that as soon as you logged into LoL they had a link right to the stream. I believe LoL is just a novelty game but only time will really tell for sure.
On June 28 2011 17:42 Norway wrote: LoL gets popular because unlike most games now-a-days the developers listen to the people who are playing, so they are always balancing, tweaking, and changing things. Most game companies toss out a game every 2 years because it's a title and they know people will just by the same game over and over and over again.
I hope you can give this game a chance and you can try to enjoy it without extremely negative thoughts coming in with barely any knowledge of the game or skill level demanded to compete at these levels.
You think everyone bashing the game doesn't know a thing about it?
Not all, however based on the comments it becomes apparent that not everyone is on the same level. LoL is more marketable otherwise they wouldn't have put it in the tourney.
I don't remember anyone saying that LoL players were all on the same level. I didn't go through the 30 pages worth of posts here but the ones I did people were commenting on how LoL is a dumbed down version of DotA or HoN. Which it is, for reasons other people have already stated(i.e. creep denying, no gold loss on death) I haven't seen a post that bashed LoL players yet. Not to say that it hasn't happened but they are far less then the ones explaining why they feel the game isn't worthy of being an e-sport.
Myself I watched a couple of games during the semi-finals and finals and I wasn't wow'ed by what I saw. Anything a player did didn't look like something I couldn't do. There was no incredible micro, no crazy reflexes, etc... Not to say that the players don't have those abilities but the game doesn't allow you to benefit if you do have them. What did separate those players from the rest was great decision making and team work. When I would watch DotA though there were pros who could deny almost every creep, you would see insane jukes while people were chasing others through the forest, ridiculous pudge hooks, priestess arrows, and so on. And when watching SC2 and see even more incredible stuff. ridiculous micro and macro, multitasking, unit splittings, insane awareness to the point some players see every drop incoming and even see observers without the need of detection.
so your point is that you've never played LoL and you don't see the beauty in it? great. I've never played BW, when I watch a BW game, they only build units and make peons, guess I could do the same, there is nothing I couldn't do : we all have only 2 hands and a brain.... If a game is complex enough sothat a community develops around it with teams supported by giants of esports, it means it's esports, end of the story.
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
Y'know, LoL has out-of-game progression as well, with a leveling system and 'items', the same as WoW. Of course, you max out in level and gear, the same in both games, creating an even playing field.
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
so your point is that you've never played LoL and you don't see the beauty in it? great. I've never played BW, when I watch a BW game, they only build units and make peons, guess I could do the same, there is nothing I couldn't do : we all have only 2 hands and a brain.... If a game is complex enough sothat a community develops around it with teams supported by giants of esports, it means it's esports, end of the story.
I never said I didn't play LoL. As a matter of fact I do play LoL and that's why I can compare what I am able to do in game to what the pros do. Like I said I didn't see anything out of them that I couldn't do except for great decision making and team work.
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
[...]
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
No I am not. I am of the exact same opinion as you are. I have no clue about WoW but to me it seems to be about running around in some forrests lvl'ing up your char by killing stuff and collecting item all the time. I cant see how there could competitive game scenarios be build out of that principle.
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
[...]
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
Runescape
No I am not. I am of the exact same opinion as you are. I have no clue about WoW but to me it seems to be about running around in some forrests lvl'ing up your char by killing stuff and collecting item all the time. I cant see how there could competitive game scenarios be build out of that principle.
Your whole line of argument is built on not having played WoW at all.... there is PVP in it as well you know
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
Y'know, LoL has out-of-game progression as well, with a leveling system and 'items', the same as WoW. Of course, you max out in level and gear, the same in both games, creating an even playing field.
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
If I remember well, you don't take your own character in wow tournaments. There is a system which gives you a char at max level and you can choose your stuff as your convenance, at least for Blizzcon. So time investment don't matter in tourneys.
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
Y'know, LoL has out-of-game progression as well, with a leveling system and 'items', the same as WoW. Of course, you max out in level and gear, the same in both games, creating an even playing field.
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
Runescape
If I remember well, you don't take your own character in wow tournaments. There is a system which gives you a char at max level and you can choose your stuff as your convenance, at least for Blizzcon. So time investment don't matter in tourneys.
This is true for most tournaments but before you get there you have to place high enough in the pvp rankings. There you can only field your own character and while most of the equipment are rewards from the pvp system, there are always various things that are considered best in slot that you could only get trough PvE (trinkets or legendary weapons come to my mind). So if you play during a time that is dominated by composition X that has a warrior eqipped with Shadowmourne (just an example), if you are not in a guild that can get you this axe, then you are at a disadvantage.
A major point for any Esport game for me is that the chances should be equal. In BW you could play versus Flash or some random guy and you both had all the tool available to win. The only difference is skill and training, not that your units do an additional 5 damage just because you played longer than your opponent.
I guess I'm in the minority who just enjoy video games instead of having to shit on everyone else's enjoyment.
On a slightly OT note: I think it's hilarious that people who think DotA started in TFT with Icefrog/Guinsoo are acting like pompous hipsters.
And like I pointed out before, it's pathetic that SC2 players are shitting all over LoL for being a "dumbed down shell of a game," and claim that "DotA is superior in every way," acting like that makes LoL a disgrace. It's pathetic because on these forums that is the same argument that BW players make against SC2.
It's a bit hypocritical to argue that SC2 is a valid e-sport and then shit all over LoL.
Some folks on this forum are in desperate need of some perspective. Video games are video games. Trust me, folks, you can enjoy whatever you want to enjoy without shitting on someone else's fun. Personally, I've always enjoyed pong, and I've done so without ever feeling the need to tell everybody who likes table tennis that they're disgraceful pieces of shit.
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
[...]
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
Runescape
No I am not. I am of the exact same opinion as you are. I have no clue about WoW but to me it seems to be about running around in some forrests lvl'ing up your char by killing stuff and collecting item all the time. I cant see how there could competitive game scenarios be build out of that principle.
Your whole line of argument is built on not having played WoW at all.... there is PVP in it as well you know
Yep thats why I asked how the format of competitive play looks like in WoW since I had a hard time imagining it. Maybe you can elaborate more...?
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the way...
But yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
lol despite not having a single idea whats going on the screen (i.e. only those can watch and appreciate who plays it unlike quake) i can tell every decent quake/starcraft player just laughs with full mouth when it comes to skill and these dota games. personally know a guy who got really good in dota, but he couldnt even reach midskill in quake, he agreed too that these games are far easier.
That's totally subjective, but as someone who has played both DotA and LoL, the skill cap is ludicrously higher in DotA than LoL. Of course a DotA player is going to struggle in Quake, people are good at different things. Some people have a knack for things, and when there's no aim and you're just looking at a single unit moving it doesn't look like there's much skill, but the skill in coordination, positioning, and all the factors of juking, fog, disjointing, etc etc etc the game has a very high skill cap, but the most important thing is team coordination and strategy.
In LoL the most important thing is team coordination and strategy, but you could sub in a person who's never played before, make them play for an hour a two a day for a month, and given direction they'd perform just fine in a top-level team.
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
[...]
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
Runescape
No I am not. I am of the exact same opinion as you are. I have no clue about WoW but to me it seems to be about running around in some forrests lvl'ing up your char by killing stuff and collecting item all the time. I cant see how there could competitive game scenarios be build out of that principle.
That's what you do when you start a character...at max level at competitive levels there is only differentiation of skill (and composition), not gear etc. Obviously that's why WoW is not an esport except in special circumstances, it's not designed to be a competitive game, it's designed to be an MMO that just happens to have a competitive mode within it. It's not like DotA or SC2 where you could pick up the game and be in a match, and be on a level playing field, but you have to dedicate the time to get there. It means that the competitive teams are on a level playing field whereas joe casual is not.
Hopefully that clears it up for you. WoW is not designed around the competitive PvP side, it's primarily designed around PvE (10 and 25 player raids against bosses) with PvP as an afterthought, and that's not a disgruntled opinion, that's fact.
Does anyone know what kind of viewership quake was getting? I know LoL had 1.7 million at DH. If only a few thousand people were watching quake, I could see why it would get canned.
On June 28 2011 15:47 Gurgl wrote: ESL is a bad organization, they owe alot of prizemoney to players and teams of different games. Until they payout everything they owe and give a public excuse for their unprofessional behaviour I don't care that much about their tournaments when there are so many better ones around.
Don't expect to see any prizemoney if you are going to any ESL tournament to compete.
You either confuse ESL with ESWC, you are uninformed or this is defamation.
The best CS team in the world lately, Ukranians NaVi, still haven't received their prize money from IEM S4. This is common knowledge in the CS world.
Not paying out money is obviously weak, but your comment is too harsh nevertheless. I'm not aware of any professional who's avoiding IEM because of this.
There are only three foreign organisations who host multiple big SC2 offline events, so there's no oversaturation for my taste.
On June 28 2011 21:18 Haydin wrote: Does anyone know what kind of viewership quake was getting? I know LoL had 1.7 million at DH. If only a few thousand people were watching quake, I could see why it would get canned.
LoL peaked at something like 206k+ concurrent viewers during DH. Not sure about Quake numbers for the last IEM event, but I've heard they were low, and not just relative to LoL.
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
[...]
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
Runescape
No I am not. I am of the exact same opinion as you are. I have no clue about WoW but to me it seems to be about running around in some forrests lvl'ing up your char by killing stuff and collecting item all the time. I cant see how there could competitive game scenarios be build out of that principle.
That's what you do when you start a character...at max level at competitive levels there is only differentiation of skill (and composition), not gear etc. Obviously that's why WoW is not an esport except in special circumstances, it's not designed to be a competitive game, it's designed to be an MMO that just happens to have a competitive mode within it. It's not like DotA or SC2 where you could pick up the game and be in a match, and be on a level playing field, but you have to dedicate the time to get there. It means that the competitive teams are on a level playing field whereas joe casual is not.
Hopefully that clears it up for you. WoW is not designed around the competitive PvP side, it's primarily designed around PvE (10 and 25 player raids against bosses) with PvP as an afterthought, and that's not a disgruntled opinion, that's fact.
You're kind of missing an important point here. The fact that the classes in WoW have never ever been close to balanced is pretty important. I don't know whether this is a problem in LoL, but i imagine with so many heroes there must be some that don't get played.
On topic; Yep, this is pretty much a disgrace and heavily depressing. ESL, and especially Carmac, is the one company that i felt genuinely "got" esports. At least until yesterday.
I Gotta say, I'm actually surprised over how many people still can't let go of games like Quake.. Yes, Quake is one of the most awesome games of all time, and has brought us some very epic matches through time.. But, its a thing of the past..
My personal opinion is, that LoL brings a strategic level, which we normally don't see in strategic games; Teamwork.. This is also what makes LoL a cool game to watch imo; How 1 teams preparation and constant training, make them play so well with eachother, that they can communicate almost purely by pinging a minimap, and know what eachother means. The ability to know exactly how much you or your team can take, and still come out victorious in the end, is a thing of beauty.
So.. Before you ditch LoL completely, try watching some of the finals from Dreamhack, or atleast go into it with an open mind.. I've followed the SC2 community since release, and I watch pretty much every event possible.. Every MLG, almost every GSL, NASL, IPL, and I would state that a game like LoL brings just as much entertaining as SC2 does. You can always expect top play when 2 top teams play against eachother.. Sure, you can do some gimmicky moves, which might give you small advantages, but it's just not possible to "cheese", or in anyway deceive your way to victory. You can only win this game, by playing it very solid, and knowing what to do at the exact right time.
At the same time, I think it's awesome to see 1 player just playing straight up better than others, hence why i watch starcraft, but when you watch 2 teams face off, and 1 team is just out playing the other team, it's 5 times as awesome to see. The moves, the spells, the coordination, the perfection.. It truly is a thing of beauty.
So my fellow liquidians, I urge you to give LoL a chance. It really can be quite entertaining, and I definetly feel that this genre of game is and will be a viable type of eSport game. It's not gonna mess with SC2 at all, as the genres are totally different, and as long as SC2 isn't doing 5v5, I don't see how there would even be any kind of link between the games. it's a team game, which SC2 isn't.
I know a lot of people won't cut this game any slack, but if this post made just 1 person go watch a LoL final with an open mind, well damn it, then it's all been worth it
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
[...]
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
Runescape
No I am not. I am of the exact same opinion as you are. I have no clue about WoW but to me it seems to be about running around in some forrests lvl'ing up your char by killing stuff and collecting item all the time. I cant see how there could competitive game scenarios be build out of that principle.
That's what you do when you start a character...at max level at competitive levels there is only differentiation of skill (and composition), not gear etc. Obviously that's why WoW is not an esport except in special circumstances, it's not designed to be a competitive game, it's designed to be an MMO that just happens to have a competitive mode within it. It's not like DotA or SC2 where you could pick up the game and be in a match, and be on a level playing field, but you have to dedicate the time to get there. It means that the competitive teams are on a level playing field whereas joe casual is not.
Hopefully that clears it up for you. WoW is not designed around the competitive PvP side, it's primarily designed around PvE (10 and 25 player raids against bosses) with PvP as an afterthought, and that's not a disgruntled opinion, that's fact.
You're kind of missing an important point here. The fact that the classes in WoW have never ever been close to balanced is pretty important. I don't know whether this is a problem in LoL, but i imagine with so many heroes there must be some that don't get played.
On topic; Yep, this is pretty much a disgrace and heavily depressing. ESL, and especially Carmac, is the one company that i felt genuinely "got" esports. At least until yesterday.
I think that Carmac and the ESL are "getting" ESPORTS more than you do. If it was all about the difficulty of the game, and how hard it is to play then SC2 and LoL should not be played there. SC:BW is widely consider mechanically more challenging than SC2 so it is harder and more skillfull. If we are judgign from teh skill needed to play a game, SC:BW should be played at IEM, together with DotA(cause it is harder than LoL) and something else like Quake or CS 1.6.
ESPORTS is not about the inherent difficulty or quality of the game but about the possibilty to gather a lot of people to be intrested in watching other people play a game. Football is easier than Cricket(at least judging from the fact that i really tried to get the rules but did not), but Football gets way more coverage and has more fans. I see nobody complaining there.
Also the argument that in LoL you know how the pros are doing what they are doing, does not mean it is less impressive. I know how MKP splits his marines against banelings, nonetheless it is effin impressive to see and i can't pull it off.
Maybe we should just accept that easier games often have more players=more potential for fans=a desire to watch other people play=ESPORTS.
On June 28 2011 21:55 Jiddra wrote: Pretty funny that they annonce a new season when they are way behind on paying out price money, people haven't gotten their money for two seasons ago.
I guess LoL is a desperate attempt to salvage a sinking ship.
In Germany ESL is notorious for paying late. Socke won't recieve the money from his EPS finals six months later. Maybe same thing there? Also the prize money hosuld be coming in part from Intel, so i don't think that they have financial problems.
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
Y'know, LoL has out-of-game progression as well, with a leveling system and 'items', the same as WoW. Of course, you max out in level and gear, the same in both games, creating an even playing field.
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
Runescape
If I remember well, you don't take your own character in wow tournaments. There is a system which gives you a char at max level and you can choose your stuff as your convenance, at least for Blizzcon. So time investment don't matter in tourneys.
This is true for most tournaments but before you get there you have to place high enough in the pvp rankings. There you can only field your own character and while most of the equipment are rewards from the pvp system, there are always various things that are considered best in slot that you could only get trough PvE (trinkets or legendary weapons come to my mind). So if you play during a time that is dominated by composition X that has a warrior eqipped with Shadowmourne (just an example), if you are not in a guild that can get you this axe, then you are at a disadvantage.
A major point for any Esport game for me is that the chances should be equal. In BW you could play versus Flash or some random guy and you both had all the tool available to win. The only difference is skill and training, not that your units do an additional 5 damage just because you played longer than your opponent.
Do yourself and the community a favor and stop spreading your ignorance.
For 2 months there is a special Tournament Realm for WoW where you have access to the best equip and can team up. The 1st month is only for training purposes, the 2nd is for gather placement and qualify. The only thing you do in the regular WoW-Game is getting down the mechanics, experimenting, gather experience and playing the regular Blizzard-Arena-Season for some insignificant rewards.
The only problem with WoW is how Blizzard balances, that they are blind for obvious flaws in their balance decissions and that the community (the blizzard forums) are so full of qqing shit, that Blizzard isnt really listening to this part of the community.
That's the reason why I left WoW for SC2 and LoL. Both games I enjoy for different reasons!
By the way, wasnt there a comment through the weekend, that oGsMC is also playing LoL?
I think it is very unfortunate for Quake Live, one of my favorite esports titles, to dissapear from such a major tournament. I understand the decision of ESL though. Quake isn't as accessible and popular as LoL. Quake Live is a very delicate game, based upon timings and positioning that isn't understood by a lot of people or even first time watchers. Also I think it is hard for a caster to cover the game for inexperienced players so they understand the complex moves the players make. (Based on decisions and item timing). The game doesn't look very attractive either.
LoL however has a wider and more casual playerbase, is easier to follow and is understandable for people who are inexperienced with the game or have only played a game or 2. Furthermore ESL is going to favor this game over quake live based on pure viewers. Carmac, who manages the Intel Extreme Masters, tweeted during the DH finals of quake (19th of june): "Sad to see the DreamArena half empty for the #QuakeLive final."
In the end its all down to making the people watch the show. From ESL's viewpoint its for entertainment but moreover they need the numbers to sustain their endeavours and to keep their attractiveness for sponsors.
TL;DR - ESL's decision is a smart one and a logical one for their businessmodel. LoL is more accessible to the public compared to Quake Live.
On June 27 2011 23:29 mewby wrote: at the end of the day people are going to do what makes them the most money. quake is a great game but it is just dying and really it was inevitable. I would much rather see QL then shitty LoL
I dunno, I'd rather watch people play a DotA clone that requires you to grind to level 31 for months before you can even compete in online ranked matches than a game that revolves completely around camping the railgun, strafe jumping at 125mph and having half decent aim and reaction times.
Just my personal preference, although count me shocked that the IEM has such a gigantic prize pool that makes the NASL's look small. However, I bet that will probably not be split evenly and probably one game (CS perhaps) may get a larger proportion.
I just don't find Quake Live very fun as an e-sport, particularly because it's nowhere near as good as Quake 3 was, has little to no modding or customisation support and a stale amount of free maps available, although quite a few to add.
Also, the weapons are imbalanced. Only a few are powerful and accurate enough to kill somebody and they (the Shotgun, Lightning Gun and Railgun in particular) are camped endlessly.
On June 28 2011 21:18 Haydin wrote: Does anyone know what kind of viewership quake was getting? I know LoL had 1.7 million at DH. If only a few thousand people were watching quake, I could see why it would get canned.
LoL peaked at something like 206k+ concurrent viewers during DH. Not sure about Quake numbers for the last IEM event, but I've heard they were low, and not just relative to LoL.
The whole quake live thing at DH was shameful to watch. The playing area was smaller than the coke zero stand, nobody was watching the players who were all cramped side by side in front of eachother.
Personally if I had to remove one game from the card I would have just ditched CS because of how bad it is for schedules.
On June 28 2011 21:18 Haydin wrote: Does anyone know what kind of viewership quake was getting? I know LoL had 1.7 million at DH. If only a few thousand people were watching quake, I could see why it would get canned.
LoL peaked at something like 206k+ concurrent viewers during DH. Not sure about Quake numbers for the last IEM event, but I've heard they were low, and not just relative to LoL.
The whole quake live thing at DH was shameful to watch. The playing area was smaller than the coke zero stand, nobody was watching the players who were all cramped side by side in front of eachother.
Personally if I had to remove one game from the card I would have just ditched CS because of how bad it is for schedules.
Personally, if I could ditch one game and add one game to the current schedule, it would be ditching CS and introducing Super Street Fighter IV.
I just think that fighting games would be easier to follow and more exciting from an audience perspective, while Counter Strike has the issue of being a very graphically dated game (as far as 1.6 is concerned) and revolving around the same old 5v5 "one shot kill" style squad battles repeatedly on the same map. Yes, some people are into that sort of stuff, but there's nothing exciting about watching somebody peek their head out of cover and then being instagibbed by a sniper round.
On June 28 2011 23:12 frozenrb wrote: Who cares about QL? It's starcraft 2 forum...
Valid point. A lot of discussion about the lack of Quake Live at a competitive event.... on a Starcraft forum.
Oh God...one argument stated that most of the LoL players could not get half decent at Quake or StarCraft...well of course. Give the Koreans Quake and they will do horrible. About LoL, it is without a doubt, one of the easiest games to start out. Just like Super Smash Bros, Street Fighter, Tekken, and Forza Motorsports.
And guys, the game is going to feel really easy. levels 1-30 is easy. Level 30 normal is easy. ELO hell is easy when people are not have meltdowns, but once you get to 1900+, you will begin to realize how many factors can affect a game.
But if you are not convinced, just give the game a try. I mean, try to get really competitive at the game, not just play 1000 games in normal.
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
Y'know, LoL has out-of-game progression as well, with a leveling system and 'items', the same as WoW. Of course, you max out in level and gear, the same in both games, creating an even playing field.
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
Runescape
If I remember well, you don't take your own character in wow tournaments. There is a system which gives you a char at max level and you can choose your stuff as your convenance, at least for Blizzcon. So time investment don't matter in tourneys.
This is true for most tournaments but before you get there you have to place high enough in the pvp rankings. There you can only field your own character and while most of the equipment are rewards from the pvp system, there are always various things that are considered best in slot that you could only get trough PvE (trinkets or legendary weapons come to my mind). So if you play during a time that is dominated by composition X that has a warrior eqipped with Shadowmourne (just an example), if you are not in a guild that can get you this axe, then you are at a disadvantage.
A major point for any Esport game for me is that the chances should be equal. In BW you could play versus Flash or some random guy and you both had all the tool available to win. The only difference is skill and training, not that your units do an additional 5 damage just because you played longer than your opponent.
Do yourself and the community a favor and stop spreading your ignorance.
For 2 months there is a special Tournament Realm for WoW where you have access to the best equip and can team up. The 1st month is only for training purposes, the 2nd is for gather placement and qualify. The only thing you do in the regular WoW-Game is getting down the mechanics, experimenting, gather experience and playing the regular Blizzard-Arena-Season for some insignificant rewards.
The only problem with WoW is how Blizzard balances, that they are blind for obvious flaws in their balance decissions and that the community (the blizzard forums) are so full of qqing shit, that Blizzard isnt really listening to this part of the community.
If you would read carefully you should realize that I'm not the person that brought that point up. Also those tournament realms did not exist from the beginning. I don't play WoW anymore and I did not bother with PvP when they focused on arena or esport. But during TBC when you played a comp with a rogue and had access to the illidan warglaives, then you had a big advantage and the same continued. When you mention those special pvp servers you also have to add that you need to PAY to play on them (atleast this was the case during TBC and Wotlk) , in addition to your normal subscription. Another way to limit the competition. When you get rolled over in arena lots or even start playing, the amount of those people who then think "yea I just pay something more and *maybe* I have a chance then" will be pretty small. The only thing those people got out of it is a vanity pet. Sure, Balance is a huge problem in a mmorpg as long as you don't seperate the pvp and pve skills but it was not the main problem. There always existed a big rift between people that could even try to compete with a chance and those that could not and without a playerbase that can find even opponents each game goes downhill. Even a huge number of players who did participate in the arena system did not like it, instead they paid others to be invited into high rated arena teams to buy those pvp items (often better than the items the normal players could reach with dungeons or basic raids) or just played their 10 games or whatever was needed just to slowly accumulate points. This is afaik not possible anymore with the new PR system, but when even the players don't like something and basically have to be forced into it then something is wrong.
Atleast for D3 they said straight from the start that the PvP arenas are just for fun and would be no major concern for balance.
On June 28 2011 21:18 Haydin wrote: Does anyone know what kind of viewership quake was getting? I know LoL had 1.7 million at DH. If only a few thousand people were watching quake, I could see why it would get canned.
LoL peaked at something like 206k+ concurrent viewers during DH. Not sure about Quake numbers for the last IEM event, but I've heard they were low, and not just relative to LoL.
The whole quake live thing at DH was shameful to watch. The playing area was smaller than the coke zero stand, nobody was watching the players who were all cramped side by side in front of eachother.
Personally if I had to remove one game from the card I would have just ditched CS because of how bad it is for schedules.
Personally, if I could ditch one game and add one game to the current schedule, it would be ditching CS and introducing Super Street Fighter IV.
I just think that fighting games would be easier to follow and more exciting from an audience perspective, while Counter Strike has the issue of being a very graphically dated game (as far as 1.6 is concerned) and revolving around the same old 5v5 "one shot kill" style squad battles repeatedly on the same map. Yes, some people are into that sort of stuff, but there's nothing exciting about watching somebody peek their head out of cover and then being instagibbed by a sniper round.
Atleast for D3 they said straight from the start that the PvP arenas are just for fun and would be no major concern for balance.
I wouldn't put 2 cents on a bet saying this statement will hold. Blizzard has said a lot of shit in their press confs and developer interviews and so many of that is just utter bull. If they notice there's more money to be gained by focusing on d3 arena, they'll do it, no matter what it does to the game. Look at WoW and arena and the pvp vs pve class balance hell.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the Way...
But Yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
I think LoL deserves to do whatever it wants; if viewers want to watch it (and they clearly do) then it can be in any tournament that takes it. However, linking one short clip doesn't prove it takes any more skill than anything. DotA has been doing far more impressive stuff for years, on top of having more difficult mechanics and requiring more map awareness.
Case and point why I fell LoL gets too much recognition. It aggravates me but it is what esports boils down too at the moment. I prefer games with a much higher skill ceiling, and LoL does not fit into it.
Ah...so LoL does not have a high enough skill ceiling? Can you explain why that is the case?
Its a lot of comparing to DotA. It would take a lot of explaining and most would disagree. But if you were really interested I could list the main problems LoL has.
I play LoL a crapton, and I can say for sure that LoL has less skill requirements than any other MOBA (BLC, HoN, DOTA, DOTA2)
This is because: The control system for LoL is terrible. Like, seriously bad. You are "autolocked" into one champion. This severely reduces the game's skill cap, because you can only control one unit at a time - ever. Sure, there are champions that can create a "double", but there's only 2 of these champions, and you only control up to 1 additional "unit". So basically, in SC2 terms it's like controlling a single infestor or ghost or high templar for the entire game.
In DOTA and HoN, you can box several units (much like SC2) and the control panel will show all the units you've selected, with one "main" unit. I think this is a spinoff of how Blizzard made WC3. In BLC, your single champion has like 14-16 moves and skills, compared to LoL (1 champion, 4 skills, possibly 1-2 other item-skills).
There's plenty of other reasons why LoL is not considered very hard to play (no denying, no loss of money upon death) and many features of LoL that cause people to further mistake LoL to be a noob game (cartoonish graphics, free to play, simple HUD, etc), but I think the control system is why LoL is a terrible esports game.
LoL is to DotA as SC2 is to BW. I guess that means SC2 is a terrible esports game too.
Nope, completely wrong. SC2 simplified the UI and added a few features, but didn't take away the complexity of the unit relationships, the variety of viable strategies, and so many other features that are in the heart of SC. Plus, SC2 requires a ton of multitasking, even with MBS, unlimited groups, automining and smart casting.
LoL striped DotA bare of all the features that make the latter a complex game. They removed creep denying so skilled creepers matter less, made towers stronger so the early game is a lot safer, changed the game's pace, so little advantages are less important in time, made dying less punishing so players can take safer risks (which makes strategy less important), and many other things that are essential to making DotA as good as it is.
The changes are so radical, that it's only comparable to giving starcraft auto building orders and auto rallying units to your army and such nonsense, or like giving the AI the possibility of autobuilding supply structures whenever a supplyblock is near, or like, making all races equal, such ridiculous stuff. They changed the game completely, they only followed the basis of a model, they didn't make the same game.
SC2, in contrast, has pretty much the same mechanics, with an improved AI and UI. This comes with a reduction in the difficulty, but as players go better and better, they push the boundaries of the game, and the skill ceiling isn't nearly reached yet, that's a sign of a healthy e-sport.
TLDR: SC2 is very similar to BW, except with a streamlining of UI and AI. LoL is a completely different game from DotA, they changed the things that made the game great, and turned it into smth more casual.
I guess people who take DOTA seriously would have your opinion, but I'm guessing if you took the SC2 vs BW debate to the BW subforums, I'm sure they'd have similar complaints as you do about DOTA vs LoL.
-When SC2 was first introduced the prizes were much lower then they are now because they weren't expecting the following that it ended up getting.
-Riot's is putting up the prize money for LoL whereas the other game draw it from sponsors. So the number is inflated.
-As someone mentioned before the tournament isn't known so paying out their prize money. So those numbers are there but do they still count if it doesn't get paid out?
I think alot of people bashing on LoL here are just butt-hurt because the LoL stream at DH Summer had alot more spectators than SC2 did, and actually don't care a whole lot that QL is losing it's IEM spot. People figured SC2 should and would be the most specced game out there, and most reactions to LoL viewer numbers showed just pure jealousy.
Imo the whole "every person that logs into LoL counts as stream viewer" theory that was floating around all DH long says it all, alot of people believed that flat out without any proof what so ever, just because it COULDN'T BE that another game gathers such a large audience... guess what, it did. And why? Because alot of the things that are listed here on why LoL must be such a terrible game are actually its strenghts: Easy to play, no insane apm or multitasking needed, less time needed until you get your first good results, and so on. Average players, which are the majority of gamers, tend to play games like that. It's sad in a way but alot of gamers crave fast feelings of success, and games that deliver this naturally have a good chance to gather a large playerbase.
Lol has more strenghts, things like teamplay and obviously the ability to play for free is a huge factor as well, but most importantly it has Riot backing the game 100%. Lol being selected for IEM should be a lesson to other gaming companies on how you promote and support a game successfully.
Don't get me wrong tho, I'm not a huge LoL fanboi or anything like that, in fact I think it's an above average game at most, and in a kinda nostalgic way it saddens me to see Quake vanishing into obscurity (I played it alot in back in 2001-2003) and I fear CS (I played that game even more than Q3) will be the next game after QL to bite the dust, DH viewer numbers were extremely disappointing and the game has gotten pretty stale, with the same 4-5 teams on top for years now, and only very rarely new maps are introduced to spice things up.
So yeah while that was abit offtopic, my point is: IEM does the right decision by introducing LoL... like it or not, LoL is the "hottest" game right now as far as stream viewers are concerned, and not picking it up would be a downright stupid move. I respect Riot for what they are doing to promote their game. Sure they are catering to the masses, and from a technical standpoint their game is far from being the best, but in the end if you want eSports to grow you have to get those masses on board. It's sad to see games that were pioneering eSports competition slowly fade away, but I see it as part of a natural progression, but there's no need to hate on LoL/Riot for what they are doing.
So I decided to d/l LoL to see what the fuzz was about - only to be greeted with a 2h+ log-in queue. How the heck can the game be successful with such poor infrastructure? It's either insanely good or people are just stupid to put up with this.
Personally I think most arguments that could be applied to say they should have run QL over LoL could similarly be applied to say they should have run BW over SC2.
On June 29 2011 01:42 paloo wrote: Imo the whole "every person that logs into LoL counts as stream viewer" theory that was floating around all DH long says it all, alot of people believed that flat out without any proof what so ever, just because it COULDN'T BE that another game gathers such a large audience... guess what, it did.
You are wrong though. LoL has around 700 000 accounts created totally throughout the lifetime of the game (who have played at least 10 games). You think 200 000 of those just happened to tune in to the stream?
Something is obviously messed up with their stream stats.
On June 29 2011 02:14 Longshank wrote: So I decided to d/l LoL to see what the fuzz was about - only to be greeted with a 2h+ log-in queue. How the heck can the game be successful with such poor infrastructure? It's either insanely good or people are just stupid to put up with this.
EU servers are shit, plus you're not going to see anything decent until level 30 ranked play, which takes a couple of weeks.
To sum up lol in a few words, it's a lower-risk lower-reward version of dota where one player in each team will be roaming full time, runes are replaced by creeps giving special buffs which teams group up and teamfight for. People have more escape tools and there are no characters able to 2shot stuff, it feels more fair to the player and the graphics and gameplay are as intuitive as a game can get.
On June 29 2011 01:42 paloo wrote: Imo the whole "every person that logs into LoL counts as stream viewer" theory that was floating around all DH long says it all, alot of people believed that flat out without any proof what so ever, just because it COULDN'T BE that another game gathers such a large audience... guess what, it did.
You are wrong though. LoL has around 700 000 accounts created totally throughout the lifetime of the game (who have played at least 10 games). You think 200 000 of those just happened to tune in to the stream?
Something is obviously messed up with their stream stats.
Dunno from where are you pulling your numbers, but last week was officially stated by Riot that LoL has over 3 million active accounts ...
On June 29 2011 02:14 Longshank wrote: So I decided to d/l LoL to see what the fuzz was about - only to be greeted with a 2h+ log-in queue. How the heck can the game be successful with such poor infrastructure? It's either insanely good or people are just stupid to put up with this.
EU servers are shit, plus you're not going to see anything decent until level 30 ranked play, which takes a couple of weeks.
To sum up lol in a few words, it's a lower-risk lower-reward version of dota where one player in each team will be roaming full time, runes are replaced by creeps giving special buffs which teams group up and teamfight for. People have more escape tools and there are no characters able to 2shot stuff, it feels more fair to the player and the graphics and gameplay are as intuitive as a game can get.
Alright. Well the queue decided to kick me anyway after 40 minutes. Fuck this.
On June 29 2011 01:42 paloo wrote: Imo the whole "every person that logs into LoL counts as stream viewer" theory that was floating around all DH long says it all, alot of people believed that flat out without any proof what so ever, just because it COULDN'T BE that another game gathers such a large audience... guess what, it did.
You are wrong though. LoL has around 700 000 accounts created totally throughout the lifetime of the game (who have played at least 10 games). You think 200 000 of those just happened to tune in to the stream?
Something is obviously messed up with their stream stats.
Dunno from where are you pulling your numbers, but last week was officially stated by Riot that LoL has over 3 million active accounts ...
On June 29 2011 02:24 TheYango wrote: Personally I think most arguments that could be applied to say they should have run QL over LoL could similarly be applied to say they should have run BW over SC2.
yeah because QL and LoL are that similiar u could almost say its QL2 get out
On June 29 2011 01:42 paloo wrote: Imo the whole "every person that logs into LoL counts as stream viewer" theory that was floating around all DH long says it all, alot of people believed that flat out without any proof what so ever, just because it COULDN'T BE that another game gathers such a large audience... guess what, it did.
You are wrong though. LoL has around 700 000 accounts created totally throughout the lifetime of the game (who have played at least 10 games). You think 200 000 of those just happened to tune in to the stream?
Something is obviously messed up with their stream stats.
That's completely false, there's NO WAY there's only 700.000 accounts created.
Even the American ladder site lists 134.000 accounts over 1200 elo, which should be midpoint(So approximate number of ranked LoL players on US is about 268.000.
In order to play ranked, you need to be lvl 30, which takes about 300 games. You also only get listed after you play at least 10 ranked games.
How many people do you think there are that either 1. played less games so they're not lvl 30 yet or 2. are from other regions or 3. don't play ranked games at all?
Totals up to 700.000? You've got to be joking.
Oh and by the way, numerous people who've never played the game also watched it.
On June 29 2011 02:24 TheYango wrote: Personally I think most arguments that could be applied to say they should have run QL over LoL could similarly be applied to say they should have run BW over SC2.
yeah because QL and LoL are that similiar u could almost say its QL2 get out
It's the argument of casual and popular vs less popular and hardcore.
On June 29 2011 01:42 paloo wrote: Imo the whole "every person that logs into LoL counts as stream viewer" theory that was floating around all DH long says it all, alot of people believed that flat out without any proof what so ever, just because it COULDN'T BE that another game gathers such a large audience... guess what, it did.
You are wrong though. LoL has around 700 000 accounts created totally throughout the lifetime of the game (who have played at least 10 games). You think 200 000 of those just happened to tune in to the stream?
Something is obviously messed up with their stream stats.
Dunno from where are you pulling your numbers, but last week was officially stated by Riot that LoL has over 3 million active accounts ...
On June 29 2011 02:24 TheYango wrote: Personally I think most arguments that could be applied to say they should have run QL over LoL could similarly be applied to say they should have run BW over SC2.
yeah because QL and LoL are that similiar u could almost say its QL2 get out
Who the hell decided that IEM has to replace QL with a similar game?
How similar QL and LoL are had absolutely nothing to do with my point.
On June 29 2011 03:14 Shikyo wrote: It's the argument of casual and popular vs less popular and hardcore.
sc2 is easier but its still hardcore enough to be a good competitive game and replacement for bw, somebody said (think it was sheth) that it would take a full year of hard working to become good enough to compete on the current top level for somebody who just started playing (and players are still improving) think that's reasonable learning curve, LoL might be fun game to play with friends while drinking beer but as a esports i dont see how its challenging enough to make me pumped, besides it kind blows from a spectator point of view (thats debatable but for me its as exciting as WoW...). The argument of mass viewers doesnt mean for me much, plenty of people listen to justin bieber does it make him a good singer?
On June 29 2011 03:14 Shikyo wrote: It's the argument of casual and popular vs less popular and hardcore.
sc2 is easier but its still hardcore enough to be a good competitive game and replacement for bw, somebody said (think it was sheth) that it would take a full year of hard working to become good enough to compete on the current top level for somebody who just started playing (and players are still improving) think that's reasonable learning curve, LoL might be fun game to play with friends while drinking beer but as a esports i dont see how its challenging enough to make me pumped, besides it kind blows from a spectator point of view (thats debatable but for me its as exciting as WoW...). The argument of mass viewers doesnt mean for me much, plenty of people listen to justin bieber does it make him a good singer?
Makes him a popular enough singer to surprise perform @ the next ESL. ESL doesn't care if you don't care about mass viewers anyways.
On June 29 2011 01:42 paloo wrote: Imo the whole "every person that logs into LoL counts as stream viewer" theory that was floating around all DH long says it all, alot of people believed that flat out without any proof what so ever, just because it COULDN'T BE that another game gathers such a large audience... guess what, it did.
You are wrong though. LoL has around 700 000 accounts created totally throughout the lifetime of the game (who have played at least 10 games). You think 200 000 of those just happened to tune in to the stream?
Something is obviously messed up with their stream stats.
See that's just what I meant. Because it's "obvious" that the stream numbers can't possibly be true you go and pull out a number off some 3rd party side as proof for your argument... really?
The only thing I know for sure is that there was a (very prominent) link to the stream in the game client, and as far as I'm concerned you are not watching a stream until you actually play it in your web browser. So as long as nobody brings up proof that those stream numbers clearly were rigged, I'm just going to believe them, as anyone should.
Well MLG have been having thoughts getting LoL into their Circuit, so it's not that surprising to see LoL added to IEM. Still sad to see Quake go though
On June 29 2011 03:14 Shikyo wrote: It's the argument of casual and popular vs less popular and hardcore.
sc2 is easier but its still hardcore enough to be a good competitive game and replacement for bw, somebody said (think it was sheth) that it would take a full year of hard working to become good enough to compete on the current top level for somebody who just started playing (and players are still improving) think that's reasonable learning curve, LoL might be fun game to play with friends while drinking beer but as a esports i dont see how its challenging enough to make me pumped, besides it kind blows from a spectator point of view (thats debatable but for me its as exciting as WoW...). The argument of mass viewers doesnt mean for me much, plenty of people listen to justin bieber does it make him a good singer?
"Hardcore enough"? So BW is too hardcore, but LoL isn't hardcore enough? That's the most subjective bullshit I've ever heard.
On June 28 2011 21:53 jelle wrote: I Gotta say, I'm actually surprised over how many people still can't let go of games like Quake.. Yes, Quake is one of the most awesome games of all time, and has brought us some very epic matches through time.. But, its a thing of the past..
My personal opinion is, that LoL brings a strategic level, which we normally don't see in strategic games; Teamwork.. This is also what makes LoL a cool game to watch imo; How 1 teams preparation and constant training, make them play so well with eachother, that they can communicate almost purely by pinging a minimap, and know what eachother means. The ability to know exactly how much you or your team can take, and still come out victorious in the end, is a thing of beauty.
So.. Before you ditch LoL completely, try watching some of the finals from Dreamhack, or atleast go into it with an open mind.. I've followed the SC2 community since release, and I watch pretty much every event possible.. Every MLG, almost every GSL, NASL, IPL, and I would state that a game like LoL brings just as much entertaining as SC2 does. You can always expect top play when 2 top teams play against eachother.. Sure, you can do some gimmicky moves, which might give you small advantages, but it's just not possible to "cheese", or in anyway deceive your way to victory. You can only win this game, by playing it very solid, and knowing what to do at the exact right time.
At the same time, I think it's awesome to see 1 player just playing straight up better than others, hence why i watch starcraft, but when you watch 2 teams face off, and 1 team is just out playing the other team, it's 5 times as awesome to see. The moves, the spells, the coordination, the perfection.. It truly is a thing of beauty.
So my fellow liquidians, I urge you to give LoL a chance. It really can be quite entertaining, and I definetly feel that this genre of game is and will be a viable type of eSport game. It's not gonna mess with SC2 at all, as the genres are totally different, and as long as SC2 isn't doing 5v5, I don't see how there would even be any kind of link between the games. it's a team game, which SC2 isn't.
I know a lot of people won't cut this game any slack, but if this post made just 1 person go watch a LoL final with an open mind, well damn it, then it's all been worth it
Best regards,
Jelle
What is so exciting about LoL for you? It doesn't happen anything in the first 20min as usual...?
Really nice to see that they got CS1.6 at least!_! And still huge price pool!
On June 29 2011 06:35 ZergMaestro wrote: I just wish quake was replaced by a another good FPS, but there hasn't been a good competitive FPS since 1.6 .
RTWC was the closest thing but it still didn't breakout onto a pro tour, and that was back in 04-05
Who knows maybe a heavily modified TF2 might do it.
Yeah I personally think that the FPS scene really suffers from Q4 and Counter-Strike: Source (and other games like Painkiller, UT2k3/4) not breaking through... there's just so little incentive to try and become pro in QL and CS now, getting to the top is pretty much impossible right now. Here's to hoping a new game will come up soon, would be really sad if the FPS scene got reduced to "console style" (can't find a better way to put it) shooters like CoD and Halo.
On June 29 2011 06:35 ZergMaestro wrote: I just wish quake was replaced by a another good FPS, but there hasn't been a good competitive FPS since 1.6 .
RTWC was the closest thing but it still didn't breakout onto a pro tour, and that was back in 04-05
Who knows maybe a heavily modified TF2 might do it.
Yeah I personally think that the FPS scene really suffers from Q4 and Counter-Strike: Source (and other games like Painkiller, UT2k3/4) not breaking through... there's just so little incentive to try and become pro in QL and CS now, getting to the top is pretty much impossible right now. Here's to hoping a new game will come up soon, would be really sad if the FPS scene got reduced to "console style" (can't find a better way to put it) shooters like CoD and Halo.
Really looking forward for BF3 now that DICE have said that we could make mods for BF3 it gonna be really awesome I hope, but it need to be 5v5 imo, can't go with 8/16 for LANs, just to many.
the fact is that LoL requires way less skill than DotA/HoN. advanced mechanics like Creep equilibrum and managing ur item's actives and replays are nonexistent. try putting a link to a sc2 stream in bnet2 and you'll see. It'll die as an e-sport when Dota 2 comes out and S2 decides to be a better company
On June 29 2011 06:35 ZergMaestro wrote: I just wish quake was replaced by a another good FPS, but there hasn't been a good competitive FPS since 1.6 .
RTWC was the closest thing but it still didn't breakout onto a pro tour, and that was back in 04-05
Who knows maybe a heavily modified TF2 might do it.
Yeah I personally think that the FPS scene really suffers from Q4 and Counter-Strike: Source (and other games like Painkiller, UT2k3/4) not breaking through... there's just so little incentive to try and become pro in QL and CS now, getting to the top is pretty much impossible right now. Here's to hoping a new game will come up soon, would be really sad if the FPS scene got reduced to "console style" (can't find a better way to put it) shooters like CoD and Halo.
The problem is games are being designed for consoles. You won't find a fps game like Quake or 1.6 being made today. The only hope I have is NS2 but that's not even mainstream. I think we are just going to have to accept the fact that competitive FPS as we know it is just going to become a relic and games like Halo/CoD are going to be the new "competitive FPS". I know it's saddening. I think I'm going to go cry now just for writing this.
On June 29 2011 06:35 ZergMaestro wrote: I just wish quake was replaced by a another good FPS, but there hasn't been a good competitive FPS since 1.6 .
RTWC was the closest thing but it still didn't breakout onto a pro tour, and that was back in 04-05
Who knows maybe a heavily modified TF2 might do it.
Yeah I personally think that the FPS scene really suffers from Q4 and Counter-Strike: Source (and other games like Painkiller, UT2k3/4) not breaking through... there's just so little incentive to try and become pro in QL and CS now, getting to the top is pretty much impossible right now. Here's to hoping a new game will come up soon, would be really sad if the FPS scene got reduced to "console style" (can't find a better way to put it) shooters like CoD and Halo.
The problem is games are being designed for consoles. You won't find a fps game like Quake or 1.6 being made today. The only hope I have is NS2 but that's not even mainstream. I think we are just going to have to accept the fact that competitive FPS as we know it is just going to become a relic and games like Halo/CoD are going to be the new "competitive FPS". I know it's saddening. I think I'm going to go cry now just for writing this.
Yeah you're most likely right... all big FPS now are PC/XBOX/PS3 cross-releases, and it seems like that's also how it's gonna work in the future. My hope right now is that Valve somehow comes up with a real successor to CS, there were some hints, but then again I don't think it's very likely, seeing how shabby they treat CS1.6 right now (which is a shame, because CS1.6 was the killer app that got the whole Steam network started after all -.-), and another hope would be ID making a sequel to Q3A... which will happen, but probably not until some years from now, and when it does im pretty sure it will be another console/pc hybrid.
In the end it's all a part of a change in gaming culture, back when CS and Quake were new games, having a PC was pretty much the only way to play online shooters, but XBOX live and the like broke that monopoly eventually. Like I said in a post before gaming companies will try to cater to the masses, and if XBOX/PlayStation is where the masses are... well then that's how it's gonna be.
Sad to see QL go - I started following it during IEM Cologne and really enjoyed how thrilling yet tactical it was.
Nothing much against LoL being in, but I hope they manage to get some better casters - it's really hard to get into the action without having a good understanding of the game (only played a few myself). Or maybe I just don't "get" MOBA games.
About LoL and jukes... LoL definitely has potential, hopefully the top scene will increase in skill (atm biggest problem in my opinion is that the "top scene" isnt that good). No one is even near reaching the "skill-cap" of the game. Anyone of you who's like "hey thats easy shit rofl" is sadly mistaken. LoL is really more comparable to football than lots of other "esports". It's about picks, positionning, knowledge of what you / others can do. And a bit of quake because you HAVE to know the timing on your and your opponents blue/red buff, dragon and baron spawn, and everybody's ultimates. (And various "jungle timings" in the beginning, for ganks and counterjungling). I am a HUGE fan of quake and have been watching competitive quake III since its beginning and no words can describe my sadness at it being removed from every event. However, I happen to love MOBAs too, (played tons of DotA allstars in dotapickup). LoL has big problems, it's obvious and nobody is denying that. But HoN has too, and same goes for DotA (Nostalgia is a lying bitch).
But everybody should give LoL a chance. If you know what's going on it's actually very enjoyable to watch (and gets more enjoyable when you get to know the players, think about it, would you enjoy watching esports that much if everybody was unknown to you ?) and the viewer numbers prove it.
More to the point, if I may say so, your bitching isn't going to change anything except make you look stupidly elitist. I'm also fairly sure most of the people crying about the game either didn't play it or played it a little / casually and don't understand most of what is involved in "competitive" play.
TL;DR : No quake = sad panda ; LoL ain't that bad.
On June 29 2011 03:25 TheYango wrote: LoLbase only track games played by players who use their client. Which is a pretty small fraction of their total player base.
That's not true.
Lol@ those comments that say that Dota/HoN requires more skill than LoL. It's all the same. None of them are skillshot games like BLC. And personally I doubt that Dota 2 will ever have a larger player base than LoL does.
On June 29 2011 03:25 TheYango wrote: LoLbase only track games played by players who use their client. Which is a pretty small fraction of their total player base.
So many hypocrites. People want esports to succeed but when a game enters the scene that doesn't match up 1 for 1 with their expectations they start screaming bloody murder and decide "they're done feeding money into esports." That's like boycotting ESPN because they decided to start broadcasting/funding hocky or soccer instead of just basketball and football.
Real retarded imo.
Unless you've played all the games listed at a high level you have no right to say X game requires "no skill" or whatnot. Have an open mind and just try the damn thing. When I say try, I don't mean play 2-3 games, watch 1 and immediately QQ and decide it's not worth it.
About LoL and jukes... LoL definitely has potential, hopefully the top scene will increase in skill (atm biggest problem in my opinion is that the "top scene" isnt that good). No one is even near reaching the "skill-cap" of the game. Anyone of you who's like "hey thats easy shit rofl" is sadly mistaken. LoL is really more comparable to football than lots of other "esports". It's about picks, positionning, knowledge of what you / others can do. And a bit of quake because you HAVE to know the timing on your and your opponents blue/red buff, dragon and baron spawn, and everybody's ultimates. (And various "jungle timings" in the beginning, for ganks and counterjungling). I am a HUGE fan of quake and have been watching competitive quake III since its beginning and no words can describe my sadness at it being removed from every event. However, I happen to love MOBAs too, (played tons of DotA allstars in dotapickup). LoL has big problems, it's obvious and nobody is denying that. But HoN has too, and same goes for DotA (Nostalgia is a lying bitch).
But everybody should give LoL a chance. If you know what's going on it's actually very enjoyable to watch (and gets more enjoyable when you get to know the players, think about it, would you enjoy watching esports that much if everybody was unknown to you ?) and the viewer numbers prove it.
More to the point, if I may say so, your bitching isn't going to change anything except make you look stupidly elitist. I'm also fairly sure most of the people crying about the game either didn't play it or played it a little / casually and don't understand most of what is involved in "competitive" play.
TL;DR : No quake = sad panda ; LoL ain't that bad.
Look at those broken no mana mechanics. Pretty sick man.
even though i play quite a bit lol (not any good ranked 1500 or so), and have played dota before for years, great games. i think its a TERRIBLE esport, for the sole reason that observing it is super fucking boring for the most part. when teams have 10 minte long standoffs at a turret or just farm 15 long because the whole map is warded and no ganks are possible i have to puke. also lol is harder to learn to get started. the basics of sc2 are easy so you could say lol is hard to start but relatively easy to reach a high level. while sc2 is the opposite. RIP quake, you were an awesome game but you have to leave for a game that has a big casual playerbase
Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
On June 29 2011 14:51 isleyofthenorth wrote: even though i play quite a bit lol (not any good ranked 1500 or so), and have played dota before for years, great games. i think its a TERRIBLE esport, for the sole reason that observing it is super fucking boring for the most part. when teams have 10 minte long standoffs at a turret or just farm 15 long because the whole map is warded and no ganks are possible i have to puke. also lol is harder to learn to get started. the basics of sc2 are easy so you could say lol is hard to start but relatively easy to reach a high level. while sc2 is the opposite. RIP quake, you were an awesome game but you have to leave for a game that has a big casual playerbase
From what you said there I think you are either a liar about playing LoL, or are so bias its affecting your brain -_-... LoL is easy to learn mechanically, and can be played pretty casually which is why a lot people like it, but to master it at a high level is still difficult because of the teamwork aspect.
I watched both GSL and Dreamhack LoL right afterwards, and the observing was actually pretty kick ass and fun to watch, it definitely has potential. Its not like SC2 doesn't have tons of boring downtime in games where the players aren't doing anything because of positioning. To be perfectly honest with you there was more action going on in LoL because of 5 players and teamwork...
After watching the DH LoL tourney, I am more than willing to give it a chance, because the games in that tourney were soooo freking tight. Haven't had that much fun from simply watching a game in a long time... The casters had a hard time actually keeping track of everything that was happening.
Personally I won't miss Quake one bit. It had its place in gaming at one point, but lets face the reality: Quake hasn't been relevant in years, and watching the streams for it was plain boring. Sure I can appreciate the skills, but it was still uninteresting to watch.
Esports in an industry, IEM is a business. They will go with whatever they perceive will garner more viewer and push them forward.
I don't know the numbers for Quake live streams, but for DH LoL stream, live there were always 100k+ viewers(Hit over 200k at some point during the finals), and while they were doing replays of the action there were always 30k+ viewers, on solomid.net there are several streams that always have 2-4k viewers. So you can't really argue with the numbers.
They choose whatever game people desires to watch, it's really simple. More people want to watch LoL than Quake therefore, they pick LoL simply because they get more money and viewers from it
they should get the liquid guys to make a team to fuck the Lol people up and show them what real skill is
Funny story, TL has an unofficial LoL team already actually and they aren't to bad. Pretty sure the info about all of it is in the LoL sub-forum on TL too.
To all the people who say that LoL requires no skill and the skill-cap is easily reached:
I think you have to differntiate between two types of skill: mechanical skill and decision making.
In QL, a lot of mechanical skill is required, for example to rocket jump where you want and aiming in general. But in terms of decision making, as far as I know, there are not many factors to make a correct decision, which makes decision making easier. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you mainly have to consider how much health the enemy has, which armor to take next, if you can actually pull it off to grab that armor, etc.)
On the other hand, in LoL you don't require as much mechanical skill to reach the mechanical skill-cap. You only control one Unit (maybe 2) and have to predict enemy movements to hit skill shots. Juking also comes into mind, see that rumble vid above. But what really seperates the pros from other players is their excellent decision making. In LoL, there are so many factors to consider, starting at the champion selection/ban, which seems simple, but requires a lot of thought.
While playing, you have i.e. to decide if you can push the lane or you should back off, depending on what champs the enemys have, what teammates are nearby you, which items the enemy has, if they used their cooldowns already, if they are fed or not, etc. etc.
There are very many factors to consider, and you have to make a lot of decisions during one game. Watch that akali video which was posted. When she towerdived 1v2, I personally thought that this was an idiotic move because she would die for sure and thus maybe getting a kill, but enemy team would get a kill and an assist, which is worth more. But I was very surprised when that akali actually made it out of there alive. This was a really great move and such moments make LoL exciting for me.
I can see why it is not interesting to watch for people who don't play the game, because you don't know if a decision is risky or not. In QL you can easily see that the pros are very skilled because they jump around like crazy and don't make a mistake while doing so.
So please, if you think that a game requires no skill, don't only look at mechanical skill but also on decision making, which is the bigger factor in MOBA games.
What?!!!! Quake removed for a Roleplaying-no-skill hellokitty game?!!! are you serious?!! Before this I never heard of that game, I just went to see some videos of what is about....are you kidding me??? they are making a tournament for that.....???.....
what's next??? MMOs are going to be in E-sport tournaments now? This is so sad.
carmac, you shall be forgiven! maybe one day you will get the honor to announce a great game added to iem again. for now just feast upon the souls of the weak and insecure LoL players.
On June 29 2011 15:30 FXOpen wrote: Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
Cant belive this comment goes unnoticed when all others are talking about LoL and random stuff....
This is a serious matter (remember eswc anyone) and should be dealt with directly, there is also lots of theese sort of comments on other sites but this is the first time ive seen an official team leader tell it in public.
I wish we lived in a world where competitive games can co-exist and people didn't say "I love esports, but only if my favorite game is the one and only game that's involved in esports."
On June 29 2011 15:30 FXOpen wrote: Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
To be honest, amidst all this controversy, this seems to be the bigger issue here. It's not going to matter if the players don't get any prize money in return. :S
As much as Starcraft 2 is an awesome game, LoL is the best thing that happened to eSports in the last 2 years, for reasons that most SC geeks won't understand.
You all said it, LoL doesn't require much mechanical skills. But the skill required to play the game at the top level is still far superior to the "casual skill". In fact, there are nearly 80 different heroes in the game, and every single one of them has a specific playstyle, which needs you to adjust your "mechanical skills".
On that point, mechanical skills aren't what matter the most in LoL, but rather the decision making, as an individual hero and as a member of a 5-man team. If you ever watched the best LoL players stream, most of them rage a lot on their teammates in solo queue (random teams based on ELO). Thing is, your game NEEDS to be tight, from the beginning of the game (including bans and picking) until the very last fight, and that is a difficult feat to accomplish.
Now, you didn't need to read what I just wrote. Because what REALLY matters and made LoL the success story it is right now, is the fact that LoL is a free to play, casual friendly game.
Anyone can pick up LoL. It won't cost them a dime (and you can't buy power in LoL). Anyone can become decent at the game (ranked games are only available to lvl 30 players, which is the maximum level). Anyone can ENJOY playing AND watching a game of LoL, regardless of your skill level, or your knowledge of the game.
It's like soccer, or football. When you watch the World Cup, you're not looking to see a player dominate everyone and showcase extreme amounts of skills. You're rooting for a team, and want to see that team play well and win. And every team is different.
In SC2, you root for a player (or a few ones), among hundreds of others. But more often than not, you root for your race to win, and most pros of a specific race play the same as any other pros. Hell, for each race, there are probably less than 10 valid build orders, even less if you're a lower than grandmaster player. After a while, it gets repetitive and boring (this explains Destiny's success).
In LoL, you only have a few teams to root for, and they aren't the same. The best proof that LoL does involve skills: the dominant teams dominated the dreamhack. And from what I've seen so far, it involves less luck than SC2 (because you get to choose your team composition and summoner spells while seeing your opponent's). In any case, it's fun to watch, easy and free to play, losing isn't as frustrating, hard to get extremely good at, the community is nice (ragers are a minority), the developpers are always coming with new things (every week), the company is greatly present in the community, streams are abundant, the competition is fierce enough.
I don't see any other games more favorable to e-sports at the moment.
On June 29 2011 15:30 FXOpen wrote: Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
well, i thought it is known that the esl takes a few months, up to a year for paying prizemoney, but they do pay at least, even without bugging them
GODDAMNIT. Now they announce that there will be an IEM tournament at GamesCon!? Like a couple of weeks after I booked going somewhere else and I was seriously thinking of going to that too. Probably my only chance to see some of the top players in the world in person gone since I go back to Australia from Germany in like 3 months and as if they will ever have a tournament there.
On June 29 2011 15:30 FXOpen wrote: Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
well, i thought it is known that the esl takes a few months, up to a year for paying prizemoney, but they do pay at least, even without bugging them
Its unacceptable from a professional point of view. You shouldn't run tournaments if the prize money isnt unavailable ./end rant
On June 29 2011 21:41 Zonarius wrote: To all the people who say that LoL requires no skill and the skill-cap is easily reached:
I think you have to differntiate between two types of skill: mechanical skill and decision making.
In QL, a lot of mechanical skill is required, for example to rocket jump where you want and aiming in general. But in terms of decision making, as far as I know, there are not many factors to make a correct decision, which makes decision making easier. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you mainly have to consider how much health the enemy has, which armor to take next, if you can actually pull it off to grab that armor, etc.)
On the other hand, in LoL you don't require as much mechanical skill to reach the mechanical skill-cap. You only control one Unit (maybe 2) and have to predict enemy movements to hit skill shots. Juking also comes into mind, see that rumble vid above. But what really seperates the pros from other players is their excellent decision making. In LoL, there are so many factors to consider, starting at the champion selection/ban, which seems simple, but requires a lot of thought.
While playing, you have i.e. to decide if you can push the lane or you should back off, depending on what champs the enemys have, what teammates are nearby you, which items the enemy has, if they used their cooldowns already, if they are fed or not, etc. etc.
There are very many factors to consider, and you have to make a lot of decisions during one game. Watch that akali video which was posted. When she towerdived 1v2, I personally thought that this was an idiotic move because she would die for sure and thus maybe getting a kill, but enemy team would get a kill and an assist, which is worth more. But I was very surprised when that akali actually made it out of there alive. This was a really great move and such moments make LoL exciting for me.
I can see why it is not interesting to watch for people who don't play the game, because you don't know if a decision is risky or not. In QL you can easily see that the pros are very skilled because they jump around like crazy and don't make a mistake while doing so.
So please, if you think that a game requires no skill, don't only look at mechanical skill but also on decision making, which is the bigger factor in MOBA games.
Hahaha, way to come to a starcraft forum and call every "starcraft geeks" who know nothing about LoL. No one is comparing LoL and Starcraft. They are upset about the fact that it replaced Quake, possibly the greatest fps ever. Also the fact that LoL is worse than HoN/Dota in the amount of skill required to play the game in pretty much every way possible (yes, this includes mechanical skill, knowledge, decision making, and teamwork). That is not even an opinion or subjective, as anyone who has played all 3 games will tell you this. It's not even fair to compare it with SC2, as SC2 only has a simplified UI compared to BW, while LoL takes out CORE gameplay mechanics that are part of the AoS genre.
On June 29 2011 15:30 FXOpen wrote: Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
well, i thought it is known that the esl takes a few months, up to a year for paying prizemoney, but they do pay at least, even without bugging them
Its unacceptable from a professional point of view. You shouldn't run tournaments if the prize money isnt unavailable ./end rant
I also think ESL had trouble paying IdrA for a BW tournament way back when if I remember correctly... pretty badly run if you ask me.
On June 30 2011 04:43 Daozzt wrote: Hahaha, way to come to a starcraft forum and call every "starcraft geeks" who know nothing about LoL. No one is comparing LoL and Starcraft.
Neither did I.
They are upset about the fact that it replaced Quake, possibly the greatest fps ever.
I completly understand that and I am sad as well, because it is fun to watch Quake. But for me, it is also fun to watch LoL, even more than Quake.
Also the fact that LoL is worse than HoN/Dota in the amount of skill required to play the game in pretty much every way possible (yes, this includes mechanical skill, knowledge, decision making, and teamwork). That is not even an opinion or subjective, as anyone who has played all 3 games will tell you this.
I've played DotA before LoL, but it seems that I didn't play in a high enough level to judge on this. I agree that DotA is much more demanding in terms of mechanial skill (just think about Geomancer). But I doubt that this is the case for decision making skill, because you have to choose runes, masteries and summoner spells, which aren't available in DotA.
Also, if it did require less skill, it still wouldn't matter, because no one will really decision making skill-cap in LoL. Especially because the game is changing every 2 weeks with the addition of a new champion.
It's not even fair to compare it with SC2, as SC2 only has a simplified UI compared to BW, while LoL takes out CORE gameplay mechanics that are part of the AoS genre.
Again, I haven't talked about SC2 or BW at all, I just wanted to point out that it is wrong that every idiot can play LoL at a high competitive level and it is wrong that the skill-cap of decision making is the same as in Tic Tac Toe.
As for the core mechanics of AoS games, I think you are refering to denying and runes maybe? Nothing else comes into mind right now. The removal of denying made the game less mechanical skill demaning, that is undoubtly the case. Decision making wise, pretty much nothing changed. The developers reason for removing denying is that it seems strange to kill your allied units. I have to agree, if you think about it, it is kinda strange. And instead of runes there are neutral creeps which give buffs, I guess thats the replacement for it.
We bring on head of the Intel Extreme Masters Michal "Carmac" Blicharz to discuss the recent announcement of the IEM6 season which saw the removal of Quake Live, the addition of League of Legends, and Starcraft 2 / Counter-Strike 1.6 come back for another round. We'll be discussing the process of choosing games, why Quake had to go, the first event in Colonge at GamesCom, and the legend of Uszat with the 'IdrA unprofessional asshole'. We'll also recap the Shadowloo Showdown 2011 & Eastcoast Throwdown 3, along with the beginning of the new GSL season.
As for the core mechanics of AoS games, I think you are refering to denying and runes maybe? Nothing else comes into mind right now. The removal of denying made the game less mechanical skill demaning, that is undoubtly the case. Decision making wise, pretty much nothing changed.
Lane/creep control and map awareness.
The developers reason for removing denying is that it seems strange to kill your allied units. I have to agree, if you think about it, it is kinda strange.
On June 30 2011 07:44 Daozzt wrote: Lane/creep control and map awareness.
You have to have map awareness in LoL. Junglers can gank pretty effectively if you don't put down wards in the right spot and watch the minimap often.
And you have to control your lane well to get ahead of your opponent. For example, if you are dominant in a 1v1 lane, you must not push and try to zone the enemy to deny xp. Which is risky though, cause the jungler can gank you more easily. A decision based on many factors.
Anyway, I'm gonna watch LO3 now. Should be interesting.
Unlike most people I'm stoked to see LoL on the circuit, hoping their is more top level commentators for this event. However i'm also really sad to see quake live go, quake live is such an awesome esport and although its community is small, its so fucking sweeeet to watch, QL we miss you.
On June 29 2011 15:30 FXOpen wrote: Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
well, i thought it is known that the esl takes a few months, up to a year for paying prizemoney, but they do pay at least, even without bugging them
Its unacceptable from a professional point of view. You shouldn't run tournaments if the prize money isnt unavailable ./end rant
I also think ESL had trouble paying IdrA for a BW tournament way back when if I remember correctly... pretty badly run if you ask me.
On June 29 2011 15:30 FXOpen wrote: Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
well, i thought it is known that the esl takes a few months, up to a year for paying prizemoney, but they do pay at least, even without bugging them
Its unacceptable from a professional point of view. You shouldn't run tournaments if the prize money isnt unavailable ./end rant
I also think ESL had trouble paying IdrA for a BW tournament way back when if I remember correctly... pretty badly run if you ask me.
On June 29 2011 15:30 FXOpen wrote: Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
well, i thought it is known that the esl takes a few months, up to a year for paying prizemoney, but they do pay at least, even without bugging them
Its unacceptable from a professional point of view. You shouldn't run tournaments if the prize money isnt unavailable ./end rant
I also think ESL had trouble paying IdrA for a BW tournament way back when if I remember correctly... pretty badly run if you ask me.
i still havnt been paid for the gamescon from last year, or new york
So now we have FXO and Liquid members saying they've been shafted on their hard-earned winnings. What I want to know is why most of us are only hearing about this for the first time now. IMHO, team managers should be going public with things like this if they aren't resolved in a reasonable time (6 months or so?). There is nothing like the court of public opinion, and the threat of negative press is pretty effective at getting people to change their tune.
On June 30 2011 08:49 aPhanther wrote: Carmac' has really good points on LO3 right now. He explains both why Quake was removed and why LoL replaced it.
Well, it's extremely obvious to everyone who has thought about it for just a second. It shouldn't even have to be explained. Quake is dead. It's that simple.
Riot is working really hard to make LoL a legitimate presence in the e-Sports scene, not unlike how hard Blizzard has been pushing with SC2 (GSL). As huge as their playerbase is, it will only grow by having large-scale tournaments like IEM, Dreamhack, maybe MLG.
On June 29 2011 15:30 FXOpen wrote: Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
well, i thought it is known that the esl takes a few months, up to a year for paying prizemoney, but they do pay at least, even without bugging them
Its unacceptable from a professional point of view. You shouldn't run tournaments if the prize money isnt unavailable ./end rant
I also think ESL had trouble paying IdrA for a BW tournament way back when if I remember correctly... pretty badly run if you ask me.
On June 29 2011 15:30 FXOpen wrote: Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
well, i thought it is known that the esl takes a few months, up to a year for paying prizemoney, but they do pay at least, even without bugging them
Lol what? In what world is it acceptable for prize money to be paid a year later?! This needs to be made a bigger deal of. Huk's prize money was before the iem with the koreans and moonglade too. This means none of the koreans have been paid and if fxo can't even get a straight answer from them, imagine how hard it would be for the korean teams to get answers from them.
Do they just think the players will forget about being paid and just hope it disappears while they hype up the next IEM?
On June 29 2011 15:30 FXOpen wrote: Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
well, i thought it is known that the esl takes a few months, up to a year for paying prizemoney, but they do pay at least, even without bugging them
Lol what? In what world is it acceptable for prize money to be paid a year later?! This needs to be made a bigger deal of. Huk's prize money was before the iem with the koreans and moonglade too. This means none of the koreans have been paid and if fxo can't even get a straight answer from them, imagine how hard it would be for the korean teams to get answers from them.
Do they just think the players will forget about being paid and just hope it disappears while they hype up the next IEM?
Tournaments often take a looong time to pay out money, its not uncommon or new, sadly. It's been like that especially in several CS tournaments ever since like 2001.
edit: looks like huk is just failing :D
Thats not fair. FXO TL and GSL pay out pretty fast. Its just IEM thats famous for taking half a year to pay out.
I dont know aboud dreamhack or some of the smaller cups but I havent seen any complaints in this thread.
On June 28 2011 14:55 50mineral wrote: its disgraceful. as the term "esports" would make one assume some skill involved in the games i think it would have make sense to have 1 RTS, 1 1v1 fast-FPS and 1 tactical team FPS. what ESL trying to do is pulling a kindergarden under the term e-sports with replacing quake with lol
What's disgraceful is this kind of attitude.
E-sports is happening right now. Who cares if its Starcraft, Warcraft, Minecraft or Angry Birds.
For the first time in human history, nerds are able to show up in force and get paid to do the things that we love to do.
You guys are fucking elitist bigots saying that any game doesn't deserve to be on a big stage. Every game deserves to be on a big stage, and your cheating yourself and the entire industry if you argue to the contrary.
You talk about disgraceful attitude....yet you go into calling (I'm quoting here) " fucking elitist bigots" to the posters that are EXPRESSING their dislike for a certain game and giving a reason (wether right or wrong) behind it. Not everyone agrees in decissions like this one, and because they don't agree with you it gives you the right to insult them? Being able to express their respectful opinions and tastes about anything is part of the SMART human behavior that makes up good communities, not going into nerd-raging spress insulting the people you disagree with.
I personally don't like this change, and much like everyone else that posted the same here, is because Quake represented itself since the start as a real E-sport, one of the founders in fact. Replacing it for a game that doesn't have a balanced, skill based (personal opinion) foundation just because the company that makes the game is pouring money to promote it is (in my opinion) wrong, and sad.
Now, according to you, this gives you the right to insult other posters? because we are giving a very personal opinion with reasons behind on WHY we dislike this change? Most of the posters here were very mature and explained why they dislike this, yet you somehow managed to get incredibly angry about that? I don't get it, this is the reason there are discussion forums in the first place.
On June 30 2011 12:32 how2TL wrote: Honestly, when WCG switched from BW to SC2 didn't this exact same argument happen?
Yes, this whole thread its just ol regular nerd rage.
Come on guys, I just finished reading this thread. Its ok not to like LoL but the decision is understandable and nerd raging is only going to make the community look as raging morons. God I wish I hadn´t read all of that
So I have not read this thread in its 32 page entirety. But I assume there is a lot of rage about replacing QL with LoL, and I am just curious how anyone can disagree with this statement, when the final of Quaklive at .. cant even remember what last event had QL,was it dream hack? had like 5k viewers. and Lol is between 100k and 200k. Anyone who would not make the decision to sack QL For LoL in that decision has no business running any organisation trying to forward esports, as they would only be standing in its way.
"You talk about disgraceful attitude....yet you go into calling (I'm quoting here) " fucking elitist bigots" to the posters that are EXPRESSING their dislike for a certain game and giving a reason (wether right or wrong) behind it. Not everyone agrees in decissions like this one, and because they don't agree with you it gives you the right to insult them? Being able to express their respectful opinions and tastes about anything is part of the SMART human behavior that makes up good communities, not going into nerd-raging spress insulting the people you disagree with."
He is not expressing his personal dislike for a certain game. He is in fact being an elitist bigot, saying that it is disgraceful what they are doing. If he had said something like "I realize this is the correct decision, even though I personally dislike League of Legends obviously it has somewhere around 20-30 times more viewership potential than Quake Live, so doing anything but this would be foolish and be a hindrance towards the growth of e-sports."
Its hard to bring up lack of payment publically. It is a last resort. I was unaware of huks case, and I assume the koreans are in the same mindset. I might talk to squirtle and ace on saturday to see.
Perhaps a court of law is better than a court of public opinion. Especially since I have them saying it will be no longer than 3 months for payment, in email.
Its unacceptable for a payment to be released more than a month after the tournament ends.. If I were to delay payment like this, I would happily quit all my jobs and go work at mcdonalds. Because my reputation would be in tatters.
I will see if any other gamers have the same problem. And maybe we can do a joint write up.
On June 29 2011 15:30 FXOpen wrote: Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
well, i thought it is known that the esl takes a few months, up to a year for paying prizemoney, but they do pay at least, even without bugging them
Its unacceptable from a professional point of view. You shouldn't run tournaments if the prize money isnt unavailable ./end rant
I also think ESL had trouble paying IdrA for a BW tournament way back when if I remember correctly... pretty badly run if you ask me.
On June 30 2011 14:05 FXOpen wrote: Its hard to bring up lack of payment publically. It is a last resort. I was unaware of huks case, and I assume the koreans are in the same mindset. I might talk to squirtle and ace on saturday to see.
Perhaps a court of law is better than a court of public opinion. Especially since I have them saying it will be no longer than 3 months for payment, in email.
Its unacceptable for a payment to be released more than a month after the tournament ends.. If I were to delay payment like this, I would happily quit all my jobs and go work at mcdonalds. Because my reputation would be in tatters.
I will see if any other gamers have the same problem. And maybe we can do a joint write up.
Its unfortunate that this needs to be done publicly, but it really is starting to look like a pattern emerging judging by all the posts here.
I just can't understand why it should ever be an issue-- tourneys are made or broken by reputation, and you'd think something like paying out prize money, which is a pretty fundamental reason why people attend these in the first place, would be a priority.
*sniffs air*
*looks to the horizon*
*checks direction of the wind*
yarr it seems though there be a shitstorm brewin'... ya'd best batten down the hatches and take cover lads.
On June 29 2011 15:30 FXOpen wrote: Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
well, i thought it is known that the esl takes a few months, up to a year for paying prizemoney, but they do pay at least, even without bugging them
Its unacceptable from a professional point of view. You shouldn't run tournaments if the prize money isnt unavailable ./end rant
I also think ESL had trouble paying IdrA for a BW tournament way back when if I remember correctly... pretty badly run if you ask me.
i still havnt been paid for the gamescon from last year, or new york
wow they still haven't paid you I would take them to court if I were you.
Carmac addressed that on Live on Three already. He said that gamescon and new york were paid out already and rapha confirmed that he had received payment for those tournaments; so there was probably a mixup somewhere for Huk's money and he told Huk to email him. He also said that idra was paid for his sc1 win after asking about it at the recent homestory.
About LoL and jukes... LoL definitely has potential, hopefully the top scene will increase in skill (atm biggest problem in my opinion is that the "top scene" isnt that good). No one is even near reaching the "skill-cap" of the game. Anyone of you who's like "hey thats easy shit rofl" is sadly mistaken. LoL is really more comparable to football than lots of other "esports". It's about picks, positionning, knowledge of what you / others can do. And a bit of quake because you HAVE to know the timing on your and your opponents blue/red buff, dragon and baron spawn, and everybody's ultimates. (And various "jungle timings" in the beginning, for ganks and counterjungling). I am a HUGE fan of quake and have been watching competitive quake III since its beginning and no words can describe my sadness at it being removed from every event. However, I happen to love MOBAs too, (played tons of DotA allstars in dotapickup). LoL has big problems, it's obvious and nobody is denying that. But HoN has too, and same goes for DotA (Nostalgia is a lying bitch).
But everybody should give LoL a chance. If you know what's going on it's actually very enjoyable to watch (and gets more enjoyable when you get to know the players, think about it, would you enjoy watching esports that much if everybody was unknown to you ?) and the viewer numbers prove it.
More to the point, if I may say so, your bitching isn't going to change anything except make you look stupidly elitist. I'm also fairly sure most of the people crying about the game either didn't play it or played it a little / casually and don't understand most of what is involved in "competitive" play.
TL;DR : No quake = sad panda ; LoL ain't that bad.
I'll admit that video was neat but I didn't see any of that in the two games i watched. One being in the finals and the other in the semi-finals and from experience playing the game it happens in 1 out of 100 games. I never watched a pro HoN or DotA game but from playing experience jukes would happen all the time.
About LoL and jukes... LoL definitely has potential, hopefully the top scene will increase in skill (atm biggest problem in my opinion is that the "top scene" isnt that good). No one is even near reaching the "skill-cap" of the game. Anyone of you who's like "hey thats easy shit rofl" is sadly mistaken. LoL is really more comparable to football than lots of other "esports". It's about picks, positionning, knowledge of what you / others can do. And a bit of quake because you HAVE to know the timing on your and your opponents blue/red buff, dragon and baron spawn, and everybody's ultimates. (And various "jungle timings" in the beginning, for ganks and counterjungling). I am a HUGE fan of quake and have been watching competitive quake III since its beginning and no words can describe my sadness at it being removed from every event. However, I happen to love MOBAs too, (played tons of DotA allstars in dotapickup). LoL has big problems, it's obvious and nobody is denying that. But HoN has too, and same goes for DotA (Nostalgia is a lying bitch).
But everybody should give LoL a chance. If you know what's going on it's actually very enjoyable to watch (and gets more enjoyable when you get to know the players, think about it, would you enjoy watching esports that much if everybody was unknown to you ?) and the viewer numbers prove it.
More to the point, if I may say so, your bitching isn't going to change anything except make you look stupidly elitist. I'm also fairly sure most of the people crying about the game either didn't play it or played it a little / casually and don't understand most of what is involved in "competitive" play.
TL;DR : No quake = sad panda ; LoL ain't that bad.
I'll admit that video was neat but I didn't see any of that in the two games i watched. One being in the finals and the other in the semi-finals and from experience playing the game it happens in 1 out of 100 games. I never watched a pro HoN or DotA game but from playing experience jukes would happen all the time.
You're correct, Fog of War in DOTA/HoN is very, very detailed, so even moving 1 pixel left or right will shift what you can and can't see (exaggerating ofc).
LoL counters the lack of a FoW (outside of a line of sight "circle" they call FoW) is to plant bushes in strategic locations around the map. Basically, once you're inside it, you can see outside but they can't see you.
Personally I don't like bushes, they feel like a last-minute "ohshitwedonthavefog" replacement....and I've been playing since day 1 of release.
On June 27 2011 23:24 MartinN wrote: five different continents...mm
europe asia north america south america Oceania ?
Antarctica *
And as far as League of Legends goes, I personally think that there are better games to have at such a high level of competition. I've played DotA, HoN, and LoL, and personally I think that LoL just doesn't require the same amount of skill to play. It's a fun game, but when you're playing for this much money the skill required for League of Legends is not even comparable to games like StarCraft, Counter Strike, or Quake.
We did a really nice and long interview with Head of ESL IEM Michal "Carmac" Blicharz today, covering all aspects of the new season including LoL, QL, CS, SC2, and other games.
On June 30 2011 12:32 how2TL wrote: Honestly, when WCG switched from BW to SC2 didn't this exact same argument happen?
Yes, this whole thread its just ol regular nerd rage.
Come on guys, I just finished reading this thread. Its ok not to like LoL but the decision is understandable and nerd raging is only going to make the community look as raging morons. God I wish I hadn´t read all of that
WCG replacing BW with SC2 was a different situation then the one between LoL and Quake. BW was replaced at WCG really for two reasons. First off the latest WCG was being held in Korea. At the time the exclusive right to all televised Blizzard games was held by GomTV. This prevented them from airing the content. They tried to work things out with GomTV and I forget what the final decision was but they ended up dropping BW because of it. This didn't prevent them from bringing it back though at a later event outside of Korea. In the end they thought, why have a game that only Koreans play in a tournament that is about country vs country? It's like having American football in the Olympics. So they brought in SC2 which is played in all countries.
LoL replacing Quake on the other hand was a decision based on being able to draw way more viewers. In the end I'm sure everyone understands that. There was a time though when E-sports wasn't profitable and it was all about people who were passionate about video games getting together to see who was the best. I believe people would have been angry that Quake got replace no matter which game it was that replaced it. But I think more people are angry because it was replaced by a game that isn't the pinnacle of it's genre.
LoL is a game that was purposely catered to the casuals. Or in a less polite terms, dumbed down. It was purposely done so by the developer so that it could be fun and competitive for anyone to play. They accomplished that task and that's probably why it's so popular. Their community is also a lot better then the HoN's which was by far the worst I had ever seen. Honestly though I'm happy LoL that they were able to create a game like that. I think the problem most people had is that it is replacing games that try to be as competitive as possible. When I look at that it that way it doesn't feel like an e-sport it feels like a novelty.
On June 29 2011 15:30 FXOpen wrote: Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
well, i thought it is known that the esl takes a few months, up to a year for paying prizemoney, but they do pay at least, even without bugging them
Its unacceptable from a professional point of view. You shouldn't run tournaments if the prize money isnt unavailable ./end rant
I also think ESL had trouble paying IdrA for a BW tournament way back when if I remember correctly... pretty badly run if you ask me.
i still havnt been paid for the gamescon from last year, or new york
wow they still haven't paid you I would take them to court if I were you.
Carmac addressed that on Live on Three already. He said that gamescon and new york were paid out already and rapha confirmed that he had received payment for those tournaments; so there was probably a mixup somewhere for Huk's money and he told Huk to email him. He also said that idra was paid for his sc1 win after asking about it at the recent homestory.
SC1 win? When was that? Whenever it was, its a pretty terrible sign if it took them that long to pay him and that he also had to sak for it.
Even if they eventually do pay out its really bad if you have to ask for it. Yea some people will mention "this guy emailed them and evntually got his payment", but how many people did not email? How many people just couldnt be arsed do keep asking for it or gave up on ever getting their payment? Seems like it could be quite a few.
Though we likely wont see it happening, it seems like some legal actions really would need to be taken. Its not like this is a new thing anyway, afaik ESL has been known for this for at least a few years.
wow...i play league of legends quite a bit with friends when im not playing starcraft but really? replacing QL with LoL? I dont get how people can watch that game and be intrested. I would much rather watch QL and i dont even play it
What a hate here against LoL. Sorry to say but during Dreamhack I enjoyed watching LoL more than I enjoyed watching SC2. On top of that, I enjoy playing it more too. Futhermore, Quack Live is past its glory, just face it.
Nothing wrong with LoL, you may not like it but it will undoubtebly continue to stimulate the growth of eSports. LoL is really the only choice for a NEW competitive MOBA - HoN isn't working, Demigod is relatively weak competively, and LoL has a huge fanbase and ridiculous results for the DreamHack streams. Maybe DoTA 2 will replace it at release, but LoL is a great choice for now. It's a new game, give it a chance. New games are always imbalanced at first, and new MOBAs are releasing new characters every week or two, so imbalance is expected. And QL has been slowly dying off anyway, so I'm excited to see what becomes of LoL in the near future.
On June 27 2011 23:38 th3_great wrote: edit: you also have to remember that the prize pool at dreamhack for LoL was $100,000, and thats dollars, not euros. thats still divided among the highest ranking teams and the players, but its still a lot of money that should'nt be taken lightly
I bet they hoped it had been Euros not Dollar: 1 euro = 1,45 USD. You ment SEK (Swedish Kronor), that's what they actually payed the price money in at dreamhack.
On June 30 2011 03:10 Mr.Brightside wrote: GODDAMNIT. Now they announce that there will be an IEM tournament at GamesCon!? Like a couple of weeks after I booked going somewhere else and I was seriously thinking of going to that too. Probably my only chance to see some of the top players in the world in person gone since I go back to Australia from Germany in like 3 months and as if they will ever have a tournament there.
Well now I'm not really that upset about missing IEM. For a few reasons which a lot of people have been over but I want to express them anyway.
First of all, I was a Quake 3/Live player, Brood War, DotA and HoN player (and now only really play SC2 due to time restrictions and it being a pretty awesome game) but never a LoL player (but I have touched on it and understand how it works).
I see this decision from ESL as just being a matter of business. Business that I do not like but unfortunately that's the way it is. I think this is sort of similar to the BW being replaced by SC2 for WCG decision (although that was more influenced by law than anything I think). I would still argue that the skill level of the top BW pros is above (and it was even further above when WCG was changed) that of the top SC2 pros, I think anyone who has played or even watched both games understands that and I feel that it is the same case with QL players being far more skilled than LoL players although people will argue about it being a completely different genre, if you have duelled against a top player in Quake you will know exactly what I'm talking about, I think the first time I duelled against a top Australian player I lost 42-0. That's in 10 minutes, getting fragged about once every 15 seconds, and I didn't even think I was THAT bad. I will also add that out of DotA, HoN and LoL I think LoL has the lowest skill level required to at least perform decently so it disappoints me that this is the game out of those 3 that has been chosen.
The reason why it was chosen though was because it is easier, it's F2P, far easier to learn and play well without getting crushed and being called a fucking scrub and other obscenities (which of course almost everyone experienced if you didn't start playing DotA early on which was the case with me) and I guess has a lot more pretty colourful pictures and sparkly things. It definately is more eye-catching. Which for most simians, whether on a computer or infront of a TV or just sitting in a park scratching your ass, certainly makes things more interesting. Quake, although being F2P now, lacks any of these things that makes it appealing to anyone new or just wishing to be entertained, unless you have played the game, it is difficult to appreciate the jaw-dropping skill of someone hitting 5 rails or slamming air rockets down a guy's throat when he came millimetres to the megahealth. Quake is also almost impossible for anyone new to play and enjoy or rather own at (I only tried to play it competitively for about 8 months, though I played it on and off for years and all I did was progress above anyone else that was new and get crushed by everyone else).
The only hope I have is that events such as ESL do not degrade into the absolute trash that is considered part of esports in events at WCG with ridiculous games on mobile phones and such. I will not say LoL is a step towards this as it is still a very legitimate esport but it certainly is sacrificing skill for something else.
Another reason why I have no interest in going to IEM is the issue that has been mentioned in this thread by FXO and TL members of players not being paid within the time stated by ESL. I can understand if there is a delay but to not pay for longer than what they stated would be considered criminal with many other professions and would cause the downfall of the company doing so. How would you feel if you were asked to work for no pay for an indefinate amount of time? You can argue that what these players are doing is not a job and is enjoyable, which is true or else they wouldn't be good at it but imagine if some of these players were not sponsored or perhaps lost sponsorship after the tournament because their contract ended or something, they would be left in an uncertain deadzone where they are not getting paid for what they professionally do and that is in my opinion quite a stressful situation to be in and can have negative effects on other aspects of that person's life. Also, how the hell does this support esports? These players go home to Korea or NA and tell the other players, "yeah it's nice to travel over there if you don't like to get paid for playing well". I wonder if a caster like RotterdaM, a former WC3 pro, would work for ESL if they told him he wasn't going to be paid until who knows when or all of the people that set up the event for example.
It is unbelievable for all of the people that work towards making the event possible get paid (so they should they do a pretty good job, thanks) while the people that are the main attraction, the reason why people come to the event, don't get paid for doing their best.
Anyway, TLDR: Q3 > LoL skillwise but not in terms of entertainment or appeal to a majority of the public (which is sad for me but I'm sure fine for others). ESL not paying players which make these events possible and possibly stunting the growth of esports rather than helping it.
I'm not sure there's a difference between the skill level in WoW arena and the skill level in LoL. I'd say WoW arena is probably more complicated and requires more skill than LoL.
Posted earlier in this thread, but I played some LoL and as fun as it is, it just isn't.. well... esports. It's also really boring to watch - if they must have a hero based esports game, why not just play the original and best, Warcraft 3?
On July 02 2011 19:20 Mr.Brightside wrote: Anyway, TLDR: Q3 > LoL skillwise but not in terms of entertainment.
WTF is so entertainment with LoL when you just sit there and wait for 25min mark before something starts to happen? First 15min it's rarely anything happens, maybe 1-2 kills.
On July 02 2011 19:20 Mr.Brightside wrote: Anyway, TLDR: Q3 > LoL skillwise but not in terms of entertainment.
WTF is so entertainment with LoL when you just sit there and wait for 25min mark before something starts to happen? First 15min it's rarely anything happens, maybe 1-2 kills.
yea, I have no clue about Q3, i just used to play it very very casually against AI, but watching it at IEM cologne last year was really fun. I have played LoL just a few times but watching it just seems super boring to me. I'll still happily be going to cologne though since I'm in for SC2 anyways.
Even though i play lol myself its super boring to watch. Quake Live is exciting without me playing the game. Well LoL has a massive fanbase so its probably way better for ESL to stream Lol instead of QL
On July 02 2011 01:08 KoTakUEurO wrote: Nothing wrong with LoL, you may not like it but it will undoubtebly continue to stimulate the growth of eSports. =
No pause ability. So when a player d/c you have to remake. Typically before 5 minutes. And without Lan this will be a issue for every tournament. Stimulate esports?
No replays. Lol well you better like the same casters, or view without game sounds.
Free teleports to base.
Abilities that cost zero resource. No risk to spam.
Poor graphic engine. Feels like one step above warcraft 3, but two steps behind HoN. One step forward, two steps back.
Just a few issues I found upon taking up the game. This is what is acceptable as a game of esports now a days? Ya-ya graphics arnt a big deal but what about these other glaring issues?
I enjoy LoL for a good casual game with my casual gaming buddies. But an eSport? Be serious.
LoL is definitely not e-sport quality. And im not sure subbing an FPS for an "RTS" isn't really fair to the competitive FPS scene. Maybe they could put TF2 in there, that'd be fucking glorious
Edit-Doh, just realized CS 1.6 is there. I guess my comment still stands but on a much smaller scale. Quake was also the very first esport, so it's surprising that they removed it.
On July 04 2011 08:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: LoL is definitely not e-sport quality. And im not sure subbing an FPS for an "RTS" isn't really fair to the competitive FPS scene. Maybe they could put TF2 in there, that'd be fucking glorious
Edit-Doh, just realized CS 1.6 is there. I guess my comment still stands but on a much smaller scale. Quake was also the very first esport, so it's surprising that they removed it.
You gotta be kidding me. You complain about LoL and then "ask" for TF2...
It's really hard for people to judge this game when they have less than 300 wins.
Because of their hidden ranking system it will only match you up against people of similar rating. And even when you do start playing ranked games you have to have a win loss spread of around 50 games before getting close to 'Diamond' level play.
For those here who are judging it after playing less than 200 games is like someone watching a SC2 game of Bronze/Silver level players playing.
The bottom line is LoL is the most popular Western Esport of all time, its that simple. The 210 000 viewers was world record for any western esports event. as such, it must be cherished, and honored. in fact i will shortly proceed to have a glorious match of lol myself. the new free champion week is about to start, let us enjoy it, fellow summoners!
On June 27 2011 23:20 GTR wrote: what a travesty that quake live was shafted for league of legends.
i guess riot are pouring the money in for the game to be a major ESPORTS title.
As someone who has played both, LoL is a joke of a game compared to QuakeLive. The game caters to noobs in every way conceivable.
I was about to hit "post," but I will instead elaborate.
From Dota -> League of Legends: Problem: meanie-head denies all my creeps leaving me way behind Fix: No more denying creeps! You can now sit there like the noob you are and get full exp! Problem: I have to use the mini-map. Fix: You are now panned so far out you can see everything w/o it! Problem: I sometimes run out of mana. Fix: Spells now take next to no mana with insane mana regneration! Problem: Sometimes when I'm playing someone better than me, they combo me to death. Fix: It is now impossible to combo someone down from full health. Spells will do insignificant damage and they will have to cast a dozen of them on you to kill you. At 40% health, please retreat to base for healing. Problem: It seems no matter who I pick, my opponent can still beat me. Fix: Some characters are now drastically overpowered compared to others so you'll always have a chance against someone actually wanting to pick a different character! Problem: When I get low on health, people sometimes kill me. Fix: Now, when you get low on health, just leisurely walk back under the tower (with extended range!) and it will totally obliterate anyone who dare follow you! Now you can lane and shoot at creeps all day long!
Yes, I hate that game. And if I had played it more recently, I'm sure I could point out 100 more things that they purposely put into that game, that dota had right, just to make it for noobs. UGH.
Sorry Quakelive
Funny you used that line. When you could similarly wreck Quake live as being the noob friendly dumbed down nerfed down version of older quake games.
On July 05 2011 17:05 xarthaz wrote: The bottom line is LoL is the most popular Western Esport of all time, its that simple. The 210 000 viewers was world record for any western esports event. as such, it must be cherished, and honored. in fact i will shortly proceed to have a glorious match of lol myself. the new free champion week is about to start, let us enjoy it, fellow summoners!
I see a lot being made out of this stream number, but isn't that simply because riot embedded it in their game client? I mean if blizzard were to do that for battlenet and make it play automatically I'm sure they would smash 200k viewers with ease.
I find Lol boring to watch but that may just be because I don't play it. But from what I understand its similar to dota, which I played heaps and heaps, its the type of thing thats fun to play but not very entertaining to watch. History tells us that these type of games despite having a huge playerbase tend to fail. I guess only time will tell how viable LoL really is.
While I don't really mind them trying new games, I can totally understand where this disappointment and negativity is coming from, as you would expect any quake fan to get upset when their game is removed.
edit: I just checked the youtube videos for sc2 and lol finals respectively, the sc2 finals had 20k views while the LoL finals had 7k, I really don't think its the most popular western esports.
All your ifs and buts and whens.. You can fiddle with that shit for days, but the reality is: LoL is the most popular western ESPORT of all time. And yeah, its way more popular than SC2 in player counts anyway so strange youre trying to speculate claims from that angle. Maybe if WoW launcher had a link to the SC2 stream it could match it :p As such, for everyone that holds success of esports dear, it is rational to cherish the game that has stormed the industry like nothing that has ever happened.
On July 05 2011 17:41 xarthaz wrote: All your ifs and buts and whens.. You can fiddle with that shit for days, but the reality is: LoL is the most popular western ESPORT of all time. And yeah, its way more popular than SC2 in player counts anyway so strange youre trying to speculate claims from that angle. Maybe if WoW launcher had a link to the SC2 stream it could match it :p As such, for everyone that holds success of esports dear, it is rational to cherish the game that has stormed the industry like nothing that has ever happened.
okay if theres no stream trickery going on explain why there are so few views on the finals vods... if it were really as popular as you say more people would be interested in watching it on youtube also.
Most popular ESPORT of all time says you... based upon a single stream number. Its a bit early to call it don't you think?
On July 02 2011 19:20 Mr.Brightside wrote: Anyway, TLDR: Q3 > LoL skillwise but not in terms of entertainment.
WTF is so entertainment with LoL when you just sit there and wait for 25min mark before something starts to happen? First 15min it's rarely anything happens, maybe 1-2 kills.
yea, I have no clue about Q3, i just used to play it very very casually against AI, but watching it at IEM cologne last year was really fun. I have played LoL just a few times but watching it just seems super boring to me. I'll still happily be going to cologne though since I'm in for SC2 anyways.
I've heard the same from games that were casted by bad commentators, but the games I watched from DreamHack were actually very fun to watch with the casters they had. Probably the first team game I've enjoyed watching -- I tried CS1.6/Source when I was younger, didn't like it, and WoW Arena isn't exactly the best spectator eSport either.
Don't hate too much on LoL. Yes, it caters to both a competitive AND casual audience, but if you actually know how the game works -- like many, many do -- it works as a spectator eSport, and it's more or less balanced because any composition a team can see coming, they just ban deny with champion bans during champion picking.
On July 09 2011 07:58 Cedstick wrote: Don't hate too much on LoL. Yes, it caters to both a competitive AND casual audience, but if you actually know how the game works -- like many, many do -- it works as a spectator eSport, and it's more or less balanced because any composition a team can see coming, they just ban deny with champion bans during champion picking.
It's a fun game to play and it does have a pretty high skill ceiling. I think it's cool that there are a lot of games that come out that appeals to comp and casual players. Honestly, SC2 is very similar to LoL in this regard. SC2 does have an appeal to casual gamers but it still has a very high skill ceiling and an entertaining competitive scene. Just like League of Legends.
People claiming it takes no skill or whatever should just play it so that they can get super high ELO and make money as a professional gamer. I can understand people who think it's boring, or being upset about Quake Live going away, but saying that LoL isn't an eSport just sounds like you're mindlessly bashing the game because you don't like it.