This isn't going to turn into another LoL vs (all other games apparently) thread. You can speak your mind about the selection of games but keep it civil.
On June 28 2011 21:18 Haydin wrote: Does anyone know what kind of viewership quake was getting? I know LoL had 1.7 million at DH. If only a few thousand people were watching quake, I could see why it would get canned.
LoL peaked at something like 206k+ concurrent viewers during DH. Not sure about Quake numbers for the last IEM event, but I've heard they were low, and not just relative to LoL.
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
[...]
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
Runescape
No I am not. I am of the exact same opinion as you are. I have no clue about WoW but to me it seems to be about running around in some forrests lvl'ing up your char by killing stuff and collecting item all the time. I cant see how there could competitive game scenarios be build out of that principle.
That's what you do when you start a character...at max level at competitive levels there is only differentiation of skill (and composition), not gear etc. Obviously that's why WoW is not an esport except in special circumstances, it's not designed to be a competitive game, it's designed to be an MMO that just happens to have a competitive mode within it. It's not like DotA or SC2 where you could pick up the game and be in a match, and be on a level playing field, but you have to dedicate the time to get there. It means that the competitive teams are on a level playing field whereas joe casual is not.
Hopefully that clears it up for you. WoW is not designed around the competitive PvP side, it's primarily designed around PvE (10 and 25 player raids against bosses) with PvP as an afterthought, and that's not a disgruntled opinion, that's fact.
You're kind of missing an important point here. The fact that the classes in WoW have never ever been close to balanced is pretty important. I don't know whether this is a problem in LoL, but i imagine with so many heroes there must be some that don't get played.
On topic; Yep, this is pretty much a disgrace and heavily depressing. ESL, and especially Carmac, is the one company that i felt genuinely "got" esports. At least until yesterday.
I Gotta say, I'm actually surprised over how many people still can't let go of games like Quake.. Yes, Quake is one of the most awesome games of all time, and has brought us some very epic matches through time.. But, its a thing of the past..
My personal opinion is, that LoL brings a strategic level, which we normally don't see in strategic games; Teamwork.. This is also what makes LoL a cool game to watch imo; How 1 teams preparation and constant training, make them play so well with eachother, that they can communicate almost purely by pinging a minimap, and know what eachother means. The ability to know exactly how much you or your team can take, and still come out victorious in the end, is a thing of beauty.
So.. Before you ditch LoL completely, try watching some of the finals from Dreamhack, or atleast go into it with an open mind.. I've followed the SC2 community since release, and I watch pretty much every event possible.. Every MLG, almost every GSL, NASL, IPL, and I would state that a game like LoL brings just as much entertaining as SC2 does. You can always expect top play when 2 top teams play against eachother.. Sure, you can do some gimmicky moves, which might give you small advantages, but it's just not possible to "cheese", or in anyway deceive your way to victory. You can only win this game, by playing it very solid, and knowing what to do at the exact right time.
At the same time, I think it's awesome to see 1 player just playing straight up better than others, hence why i watch starcraft, but when you watch 2 teams face off, and 1 team is just out playing the other team, it's 5 times as awesome to see. The moves, the spells, the coordination, the perfection.. It truly is a thing of beauty.
So my fellow liquidians, I urge you to give LoL a chance. It really can be quite entertaining, and I definetly feel that this genre of game is and will be a viable type of eSport game. It's not gonna mess with SC2 at all, as the genres are totally different, and as long as SC2 isn't doing 5v5, I don't see how there would even be any kind of link between the games. it's a team game, which SC2 isn't.
I know a lot of people won't cut this game any slack, but if this post made just 1 person go watch a LoL final with an open mind, well damn it, then it's all been worth it
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
[...]
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
Runescape
No I am not. I am of the exact same opinion as you are. I have no clue about WoW but to me it seems to be about running around in some forrests lvl'ing up your char by killing stuff and collecting item all the time. I cant see how there could competitive game scenarios be build out of that principle.
That's what you do when you start a character...at max level at competitive levels there is only differentiation of skill (and composition), not gear etc. Obviously that's why WoW is not an esport except in special circumstances, it's not designed to be a competitive game, it's designed to be an MMO that just happens to have a competitive mode within it. It's not like DotA or SC2 where you could pick up the game and be in a match, and be on a level playing field, but you have to dedicate the time to get there. It means that the competitive teams are on a level playing field whereas joe casual is not.
Hopefully that clears it up for you. WoW is not designed around the competitive PvP side, it's primarily designed around PvE (10 and 25 player raids against bosses) with PvP as an afterthought, and that's not a disgruntled opinion, that's fact.
You're kind of missing an important point here. The fact that the classes in WoW have never ever been close to balanced is pretty important. I don't know whether this is a problem in LoL, but i imagine with so many heroes there must be some that don't get played.
On topic; Yep, this is pretty much a disgrace and heavily depressing. ESL, and especially Carmac, is the one company that i felt genuinely "got" esports. At least until yesterday.
I think that Carmac and the ESL are "getting" ESPORTS more than you do. If it was all about the difficulty of the game, and how hard it is to play then SC2 and LoL should not be played there. SC:BW is widely consider mechanically more challenging than SC2 so it is harder and more skillfull. If we are judgign from teh skill needed to play a game, SC:BW should be played at IEM, together with DotA(cause it is harder than LoL) and something else like Quake or CS 1.6.
ESPORTS is not about the inherent difficulty or quality of the game but about the possibilty to gather a lot of people to be intrested in watching other people play a game. Football is easier than Cricket(at least judging from the fact that i really tried to get the rules but did not), but Football gets way more coverage and has more fans. I see nobody complaining there.
Also the argument that in LoL you know how the pros are doing what they are doing, does not mean it is less impressive. I know how MKP splits his marines against banelings, nonetheless it is effin impressive to see and i can't pull it off.
Maybe we should just accept that easier games often have more players=more potential for fans=a desire to watch other people play=ESPORTS.
On June 28 2011 21:55 Jiddra wrote: Pretty funny that they annonce a new season when they are way behind on paying out price money, people haven't gotten their money for two seasons ago.
I guess LoL is a desperate attempt to salvage a sinking ship.
In Germany ESL is notorious for paying late. Socke won't recieve the money from his EPS finals six months later. Maybe same thing there? Also the prize money hosuld be coming in part from Intel, so i don't think that they have financial problems.
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
Y'know, LoL has out-of-game progression as well, with a leveling system and 'items', the same as WoW. Of course, you max out in level and gear, the same in both games, creating an even playing field.
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
Runescape
If I remember well, you don't take your own character in wow tournaments. There is a system which gives you a char at max level and you can choose your stuff as your convenance, at least for Blizzcon. So time investment don't matter in tourneys.
This is true for most tournaments but before you get there you have to place high enough in the pvp rankings. There you can only field your own character and while most of the equipment are rewards from the pvp system, there are always various things that are considered best in slot that you could only get trough PvE (trinkets or legendary weapons come to my mind). So if you play during a time that is dominated by composition X that has a warrior eqipped with Shadowmourne (just an example), if you are not in a guild that can get you this axe, then you are at a disadvantage.
A major point for any Esport game for me is that the chances should be equal. In BW you could play versus Flash or some random guy and you both had all the tool available to win. The only difference is skill and training, not that your units do an additional 5 damage just because you played longer than your opponent.
Do yourself and the community a favor and stop spreading your ignorance.
For 2 months there is a special Tournament Realm for WoW where you have access to the best equip and can team up. The 1st month is only for training purposes, the 2nd is for gather placement and qualify. The only thing you do in the regular WoW-Game is getting down the mechanics, experimenting, gather experience and playing the regular Blizzard-Arena-Season for some insignificant rewards.
The only problem with WoW is how Blizzard balances, that they are blind for obvious flaws in their balance decissions and that the community (the blizzard forums) are so full of qqing shit, that Blizzard isnt really listening to this part of the community.
That's the reason why I left WoW for SC2 and LoL. Both games I enjoy for different reasons!
By the way, wasnt there a comment through the weekend, that oGsMC is also playing LoL?
I think it is very unfortunate for Quake Live, one of my favorite esports titles, to dissapear from such a major tournament. I understand the decision of ESL though. Quake isn't as accessible and popular as LoL. Quake Live is a very delicate game, based upon timings and positioning that isn't understood by a lot of people or even first time watchers. Also I think it is hard for a caster to cover the game for inexperienced players so they understand the complex moves the players make. (Based on decisions and item timing). The game doesn't look very attractive either.
LoL however has a wider and more casual playerbase, is easier to follow and is understandable for people who are inexperienced with the game or have only played a game or 2. Furthermore ESL is going to favor this game over quake live based on pure viewers. Carmac, who manages the Intel Extreme Masters, tweeted during the DH finals of quake (19th of june): "Sad to see the DreamArena half empty for the #QuakeLive final."
In the end its all down to making the people watch the show. From ESL's viewpoint its for entertainment but moreover they need the numbers to sustain their endeavours and to keep their attractiveness for sponsors.
TL;DR - ESL's decision is a smart one and a logical one for their businessmodel. LoL is more accessible to the public compared to Quake Live.
On June 27 2011 23:29 mewby wrote: at the end of the day people are going to do what makes them the most money. quake is a great game but it is just dying and really it was inevitable. I would much rather see QL then shitty LoL
I dunno, I'd rather watch people play a DotA clone that requires you to grind to level 31 for months before you can even compete in online ranked matches than a game that revolves completely around camping the railgun, strafe jumping at 125mph and having half decent aim and reaction times.
Just my personal preference, although count me shocked that the IEM has such a gigantic prize pool that makes the NASL's look small. However, I bet that will probably not be split evenly and probably one game (CS perhaps) may get a larger proportion.
I just don't find Quake Live very fun as an e-sport, particularly because it's nowhere near as good as Quake 3 was, has little to no modding or customisation support and a stale amount of free maps available, although quite a few to add.
Also, the weapons are imbalanced. Only a few are powerful and accurate enough to kill somebody and they (the Shotgun, Lightning Gun and Railgun in particular) are camped endlessly.
On June 28 2011 21:18 Haydin wrote: Does anyone know what kind of viewership quake was getting? I know LoL had 1.7 million at DH. If only a few thousand people were watching quake, I could see why it would get canned.
LoL peaked at something like 206k+ concurrent viewers during DH. Not sure about Quake numbers for the last IEM event, but I've heard they were low, and not just relative to LoL.
The whole quake live thing at DH was shameful to watch. The playing area was smaller than the coke zero stand, nobody was watching the players who were all cramped side by side in front of eachother.
Personally if I had to remove one game from the card I would have just ditched CS because of how bad it is for schedules.
On June 28 2011 21:18 Haydin wrote: Does anyone know what kind of viewership quake was getting? I know LoL had 1.7 million at DH. If only a few thousand people were watching quake, I could see why it would get canned.
LoL peaked at something like 206k+ concurrent viewers during DH. Not sure about Quake numbers for the last IEM event, but I've heard they were low, and not just relative to LoL.
The whole quake live thing at DH was shameful to watch. The playing area was smaller than the coke zero stand, nobody was watching the players who were all cramped side by side in front of eachother.
Personally if I had to remove one game from the card I would have just ditched CS because of how bad it is for schedules.
Personally, if I could ditch one game and add one game to the current schedule, it would be ditching CS and introducing Super Street Fighter IV.
I just think that fighting games would be easier to follow and more exciting from an audience perspective, while Counter Strike has the issue of being a very graphically dated game (as far as 1.6 is concerned) and revolving around the same old 5v5 "one shot kill" style squad battles repeatedly on the same map. Yes, some people are into that sort of stuff, but there's nothing exciting about watching somebody peek their head out of cover and then being instagibbed by a sniper round.
On June 28 2011 23:12 frozenrb wrote: Who cares about QL? It's starcraft 2 forum...
Valid point. A lot of discussion about the lack of Quake Live at a competitive event.... on a Starcraft forum.
Oh God...one argument stated that most of the LoL players could not get half decent at Quake or StarCraft...well of course. Give the Koreans Quake and they will do horrible. About LoL, it is without a doubt, one of the easiest games to start out. Just like Super Smash Bros, Street Fighter, Tekken, and Forza Motorsports.
And guys, the game is going to feel really easy. levels 1-30 is easy. Level 30 normal is easy. ELO hell is easy when people are not have meltdowns, but once you get to 1900+, you will begin to realize how many factors can affect a game.
But if you are not convinced, just give the game a try. I mean, try to get really competitive at the game, not just play 1000 games in normal.
On June 28 2011 18:53 Titorelli wrote: How can a game like WoW be an eports game anyway? Isnt it all about leveling up your char and so on? I have no idea lol but how can this a competitive game?
Y'know, LoL has out-of-game progression as well, with a leveling system and 'items', the same as WoW. Of course, you max out in level and gear, the same in both games, creating an even playing field.
You're implying that a competitive game could exist that differentiates only on time investment in not skill, which is absolutely ludicrous. WoW shouldn't be an esport, much like LoL, but the concept you're implying is beyond ridiculous.
Also, who would play a game purely about leveling up? Sounds like a hideously boring grind. Oh wait...
Runescape
If I remember well, you don't take your own character in wow tournaments. There is a system which gives you a char at max level and you can choose your stuff as your convenance, at least for Blizzcon. So time investment don't matter in tourneys.
This is true for most tournaments but before you get there you have to place high enough in the pvp rankings. There you can only field your own character and while most of the equipment are rewards from the pvp system, there are always various things that are considered best in slot that you could only get trough PvE (trinkets or legendary weapons come to my mind). So if you play during a time that is dominated by composition X that has a warrior eqipped with Shadowmourne (just an example), if you are not in a guild that can get you this axe, then you are at a disadvantage.
A major point for any Esport game for me is that the chances should be equal. In BW you could play versus Flash or some random guy and you both had all the tool available to win. The only difference is skill and training, not that your units do an additional 5 damage just because you played longer than your opponent.
Do yourself and the community a favor and stop spreading your ignorance.
For 2 months there is a special Tournament Realm for WoW where you have access to the best equip and can team up. The 1st month is only for training purposes, the 2nd is for gather placement and qualify. The only thing you do in the regular WoW-Game is getting down the mechanics, experimenting, gather experience and playing the regular Blizzard-Arena-Season for some insignificant rewards.
The only problem with WoW is how Blizzard balances, that they are blind for obvious flaws in their balance decissions and that the community (the blizzard forums) are so full of qqing shit, that Blizzard isnt really listening to this part of the community.
If you would read carefully you should realize that I'm not the person that brought that point up. Also those tournament realms did not exist from the beginning. I don't play WoW anymore and I did not bother with PvP when they focused on arena or esport. But during TBC when you played a comp with a rogue and had access to the illidan warglaives, then you had a big advantage and the same continued. When you mention those special pvp servers you also have to add that you need to PAY to play on them (atleast this was the case during TBC and Wotlk) , in addition to your normal subscription. Another way to limit the competition. When you get rolled over in arena lots or even start playing, the amount of those people who then think "yea I just pay something more and *maybe* I have a chance then" will be pretty small. The only thing those people got out of it is a vanity pet. Sure, Balance is a huge problem in a mmorpg as long as you don't seperate the pvp and pve skills but it was not the main problem. There always existed a big rift between people that could even try to compete with a chance and those that could not and without a playerbase that can find even opponents each game goes downhill. Even a huge number of players who did participate in the arena system did not like it, instead they paid others to be invited into high rated arena teams to buy those pvp items (often better than the items the normal players could reach with dungeons or basic raids) or just played their 10 games or whatever was needed just to slowly accumulate points. This is afaik not possible anymore with the new PR system, but when even the players don't like something and basically have to be forced into it then something is wrong.
Atleast for D3 they said straight from the start that the PvP arenas are just for fun and would be no major concern for balance.
On June 28 2011 21:18 Haydin wrote: Does anyone know what kind of viewership quake was getting? I know LoL had 1.7 million at DH. If only a few thousand people were watching quake, I could see why it would get canned.
LoL peaked at something like 206k+ concurrent viewers during DH. Not sure about Quake numbers for the last IEM event, but I've heard they were low, and not just relative to LoL.
The whole quake live thing at DH was shameful to watch. The playing area was smaller than the coke zero stand, nobody was watching the players who were all cramped side by side in front of eachother.
Personally if I had to remove one game from the card I would have just ditched CS because of how bad it is for schedules.
Personally, if I could ditch one game and add one game to the current schedule, it would be ditching CS and introducing Super Street Fighter IV.
I just think that fighting games would be easier to follow and more exciting from an audience perspective, while Counter Strike has the issue of being a very graphically dated game (as far as 1.6 is concerned) and revolving around the same old 5v5 "one shot kill" style squad battles repeatedly on the same map. Yes, some people are into that sort of stuff, but there's nothing exciting about watching somebody peek their head out of cover and then being instagibbed by a sniper round.
Atleast for D3 they said straight from the start that the PvP arenas are just for fun and would be no major concern for balance.
I wouldn't put 2 cents on a bet saying this statement will hold. Blizzard has said a lot of shit in their press confs and developer interviews and so many of that is just utter bull. If they notice there's more money to be gained by focusing on d3 arena, they'll do it, no matter what it does to the game. Look at WoW and arena and the pvp vs pve class balance hell.
This as a counterargument to LoL taking no skill. Easy to pick up doesn't mean easy all the Way...
But Yeah just silly sigh, just accept it, I still think it's a good thing for esports no matter what.
I think LoL deserves to do whatever it wants; if viewers want to watch it (and they clearly do) then it can be in any tournament that takes it. However, linking one short clip doesn't prove it takes any more skill than anything. DotA has been doing far more impressive stuff for years, on top of having more difficult mechanics and requiring more map awareness.
Case and point why I fell LoL gets too much recognition. It aggravates me but it is what esports boils down too at the moment. I prefer games with a much higher skill ceiling, and LoL does not fit into it.
Ah...so LoL does not have a high enough skill ceiling? Can you explain why that is the case?
Its a lot of comparing to DotA. It would take a lot of explaining and most would disagree. But if you were really interested I could list the main problems LoL has.
I play LoL a crapton, and I can say for sure that LoL has less skill requirements than any other MOBA (BLC, HoN, DOTA, DOTA2)
This is because: The control system for LoL is terrible. Like, seriously bad. You are "autolocked" into one champion. This severely reduces the game's skill cap, because you can only control one unit at a time - ever. Sure, there are champions that can create a "double", but there's only 2 of these champions, and you only control up to 1 additional "unit". So basically, in SC2 terms it's like controlling a single infestor or ghost or high templar for the entire game.
In DOTA and HoN, you can box several units (much like SC2) and the control panel will show all the units you've selected, with one "main" unit. I think this is a spinoff of how Blizzard made WC3. In BLC, your single champion has like 14-16 moves and skills, compared to LoL (1 champion, 4 skills, possibly 1-2 other item-skills).
There's plenty of other reasons why LoL is not considered very hard to play (no denying, no loss of money upon death) and many features of LoL that cause people to further mistake LoL to be a noob game (cartoonish graphics, free to play, simple HUD, etc), but I think the control system is why LoL is a terrible esports game.
LoL is to DotA as SC2 is to BW. I guess that means SC2 is a terrible esports game too.
Nope, completely wrong. SC2 simplified the UI and added a few features, but didn't take away the complexity of the unit relationships, the variety of viable strategies, and so many other features that are in the heart of SC. Plus, SC2 requires a ton of multitasking, even with MBS, unlimited groups, automining and smart casting.
LoL striped DotA bare of all the features that make the latter a complex game. They removed creep denying so skilled creepers matter less, made towers stronger so the early game is a lot safer, changed the game's pace, so little advantages are less important in time, made dying less punishing so players can take safer risks (which makes strategy less important), and many other things that are essential to making DotA as good as it is.
The changes are so radical, that it's only comparable to giving starcraft auto building orders and auto rallying units to your army and such nonsense, or like giving the AI the possibility of autobuilding supply structures whenever a supplyblock is near, or like, making all races equal, such ridiculous stuff. They changed the game completely, they only followed the basis of a model, they didn't make the same game.
SC2, in contrast, has pretty much the same mechanics, with an improved AI and UI. This comes with a reduction in the difficulty, but as players go better and better, they push the boundaries of the game, and the skill ceiling isn't nearly reached yet, that's a sign of a healthy e-sport.
TLDR: SC2 is very similar to BW, except with a streamlining of UI and AI. LoL is a completely different game from DotA, they changed the things that made the game great, and turned it into smth more casual.
I guess people who take DOTA seriously would have your opinion, but I'm guessing if you took the SC2 vs BW debate to the BW subforums, I'm sure they'd have similar complaints as you do about DOTA vs LoL.
-When SC2 was first introduced the prizes were much lower then they are now because they weren't expecting the following that it ended up getting.
-Riot's is putting up the prize money for LoL whereas the other game draw it from sponsors. So the number is inflated.
-As someone mentioned before the tournament isn't known so paying out their prize money. So those numbers are there but do they still count if it doesn't get paid out?
EPT
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