On August 03 2011 10:26 gurrpp wrote: That post to me comes off as a little insecure(not to mention butthurt that there are indeed people out there who don't know what dota is), saying that dota doesn't need to prove itself to anyone and claiming djWheat's lack of knowledge of the dota scene is disrespectful. Yes DotA is incredibly popular, but there are tons of gamers out there who don't know or don't care about DotA. Its hostility to outsiders like this that makes the DotA community so shitty.
People want us to cover DotA, we don't and we're hurting the game.
We seek out information to discuss it properly, and we're hurting the game.
I have no desire to "inject" myself into their community. I ask genuinely insightful questions, even gave my perspective on it... if anything, the recent discussion got me more curious. I can gladly "back off" but I have a feeling that this particular voice doesn't necessarily represent the entire community... maybe they do. EDIT: Ouch. After reading through some comments, I guess I was wrong... most of them do feel that way.
I did a ton of research this AM about DotA, and after that, I had a shitload of questions... especially as it relates from my point of view. I thought it was respectful to seek answers from those who showed a vested interest in DotA so that it could be represented properly.
I do not believe LO3 has any responsibility to have covered DotA, when it was pretty obvious who our target audience is. We have attempted to branch out to other games, sometimes with welcome arms, and other times, not so much.
With DotA as large as it is, I'm surprised there's not a similar LO3 like program out there. That's too bad.
Too be honest, I'd say don't force it. Simply talking about Valve making the $1,000,000 announcement is more than enough and as gamescom happens and the game goes into beta you can decide from there if you start mentioning and even get into a little. Like LO3 never really covered say, WC3 but you guys mentioned it here and there, reported on majors once in a while. You guys never forced yourself to cover it and I don't think you should for DotA either.
It's really too bad that your post on GosuGamers didn't have the rest of the context that this thread had. I only asked those questions after digging through a ton of information and to better understand it from a perspective that I know... instead, people think I'm arrogant and aggressive. Your post was almost like throwing gasoline on the fire... so thanks a lot for that. The intention of all this wasn't at all to "decide" if LO3 was going to cover it, I was simply adhering to the request of many DotA fans to be more educated when we DO talk about it. That was the only intention. Yet people think we're coming in to rape their wives and eat their children!
Trust me I'm not going to force anything. I never have... and I never will. But the vocal members of that community leave a lot to be desired. When DotA2 is released, I just hope that community grows a head who's not spitting acid and flame. I applaud them for sticking by their game for so long... I did the same thing with Quake and it paid off for me.
Additionally, the whole, "jumping to DotA2 for the money" is really the most ridiculous thing anyone could say. I have no desire to tread in those waters at all. The funny thing is, Maelk, who has been the most vocally against me, was the one who peaked my interest (even before the tournament announcement) as I was reading a piece about him and MYM. And now he's telling me to get the fuck out
- Of the established leagues and competitions, who is the largest, what is the frequency of said events, and how much prize money has been given out (average) during these competitions? - DotA is popular in Asia, so are a million really bad MMO's... what efforts have been made to bring DotA OUT of Asia to other countries? (i.e. GomTV began English broadcasting several years ago). Does it need to leave Asia? - Who is the Day[9] of DotA? - With such a popular community, teams, etc... why haven't we seen DotA showcased at well-known international eSports competitions? I know that it made some appearances at WCG, ESWC, and Blizzard events, but these were typically "one off" type competitions? - Does the population of Chinese players (which sounds like it's the biggest landscape of players) rely on non-legit versions of WarCraft 3: TFT? I always felt like one of the biggest issues with the advancement of DotA dating back to like BlizzCon 2005 was the fact that new players had to purchase WC3... this was also a problem with games like Quake 3. I'm just curious how that works in China (and everywhere else for that matter) - Is the DotA community satisfied living in a self-contained bubble? It seems like other eSports games/audiences are fairly uneducated when it comes to the history Rotegirte provided in this thread. - Why do you think there are people (like myself) who have extensive knowledge in eSports, yet don't know much about DotA? Is this the fault of the individual? Or is it the fault of the collective DotA community? Or is there no fault at all and it's just two paths that have not crossed? - If someone heard about DotA and wanted to get into it at the most basic level, which website would you send them to? If I had no one to ask, how hard would it be for me to find? Would it be PLAYDOTA.com? - SC2 and Street Fighter 4 have been two games that have proven that they can carry an active audience of people who do not even play the game. Do you think this audience already exists in the DotA scene and if not, do you think it can? - Who is your favorite team? - Which country do you believe has the largest population of players and fans? - As a DotA fan, do you follow any other eSports titles? If so, which ones and how often?
- Of the established leagues and competitions, who is the largest, what is the frequency of said events, and how much prize money has been given out (average) during these competitions?
There are all sorts of large competitions. Sadly the dota community has been plagued by less then legitimate sponsors. In the western scene the largest and most regular event is IMO Farm4Fame. I have not followed dota closely since sc2 came out, so it may have changed since then. Prior to sc2 coming out I typically played with my team of friends 5-10 hours a day, and was still a mid level player.
- DotA is popular in Asia, so are a million really bad MMO's... what efforts have been made to bring DotA OUT of Asia to other countries? (i.e. GomTV began English broadcasting several years ago). Does it need to leave Asia?
Lots of people in the west play. In china the net cafe really helps the scene: when I visited china everyone would play with each other in net cafes. Dota is best played with 4 friends, so the net cafe scene really helps: you know the other people there. One trolling awful pub out of 10 completely ruins the game for everyone else. In China DOTA is popular among the "street gang" type kids, so game ruining when you are in a net cafe can have very real reprecussions, see an actual gang fight resulting from ESPORTS: http://www.mymym.com/en/news/18199.html
- With such a popular community, teams, etc... why haven't we seen DotA showcased at well-known international eSports competitions? I know that it made some appearances at WCG, ESWC, and Blizzard events, but these were typically "one off" type competitions?
The DOTA scene is notoriously hard for new players. Most of us have been playing dota since 2004. The heavily team oriented game-play means that a single bad player on your team can't really be carried along: they will actively hurt you. This makes the players notoriously bad mannered to noobs.
- Does the population of Chinese players (which sounds like it's the biggest landscape of players) rely on non-legit versions of WarCraft 3: TFT? I always felt like one of the biggest issues with the advancement of DotA dating back to like BlizzCon 2005 was the fact that new players had to purchase WC3... this was also a problem with games like Quake 3. I'm just curious how that works in China (and everywhere else for that matter)
Yes. In the west a lot of people play pubs on bnet, using bot ladders like Throneit and dotacash etc.
- Is the DotA community satisfied living in a self-contained bubble? It seems like other eSports games/audiences are fairly uneducated when it comes to the history Rotegirte provided in this thread.
No, the main problem facing competitive dota has been the bubble. Teams, sponsors and tournaments were consistently not paying out, with no repercussions because there were no mainstream esports sponsors really offering anything. The highlight was when Blight gaming purchased 5 franchise level western players, to form a dream team, then proceeded not to pay them anything they promised(they promised many thousands a month+travel expenses).
- Why do you think there are people (like myself) who have extensive knowledge in eSports, yet don't know much about DotA? Is this the fault of the individual? Or is it the fault of the collective DotA community? Or is there no fault at all and it's just two paths that have not crossed?
Probably just two paths, coming from the WC3 scene you would have at least heard of the DOTA community. Its also a fault of the Chinese esports scene being fairly reclusive: the same is even true in sc2. It is kind of your fault after the dota song by basshunter though, I actually heard it on the radio in america a few years ago: - If someone heard about DotA and wanted to get into it at the most basic level, which website would you send them to? If I had no one to ask, how hard would it be for me to find? Would it be PLAYDOTA.com?
Probably playdota.com or dotacash.com. Dotacash lists their current pub games on bnet on their website, allowing you to find a decent pub game much more easily then navigating the game list on bnet that is full of spam. You can just copy paste the game name into bnet. Gosugamers serves as the "TL" of the DOTA scene.
- SC2 and Street Fighter 4 have been two games that have proven that they can carry an active audience of people who do not even play the game. Do you think this audience already exists in the DotA scene and if not, do you think it can?
Absolutly. Dota is easy to follow on a basic level. You have heroes that move around and kill each other.
- Who is your favorite team? Nv.Int. I have been a fan of their captain Fear since he was Eg.Fear with Azen, Demon, and Merlini.
- Which country do you believe has the largest population of players and fans?
China. When I studied abroad in China, literally every net cafe was full of people playing dota.
- As a DotA fan, do you follow any other eSports titles? If so, which ones and how often?
Starcraft 2 quite often. Formerly followed WC3.
On August 03 2011 11:36 kyser wrote: i agree with this do not force yourself to talk about any game, but if what the DotA community is predicting happens you will gain interest in the game as EG will surely sign a team.
Too be honest, I'd say don't force it. It makes the show really akward. Simply talking about Valve making the $1,000,000 announcement and what your thoughts are on it is more than enough and as Gamescom happens and the game goes into open beta you can decide from there if you start mentioning and even get into a little. Like LO3 never really covered say, WC3 but you guys mentioned it here and there, reported on majors once in a while. You guys never forced yourself to cover it and I don't think you should for DotA either.
i agree with this do not force yourself to talk about any game, but if what the DotA community is predicting happens you will gain interest in the game as EG will surely sign a team.
Yup, Dota2 will most likely be THE game of that genre for competitive gaming. It would be like the Korean server (thousands of top-level pros). HON would be like NA server (hundreds of top-level pros) and LOL is too different but it is simply not as explored yet so there are still legitimate balance whines, counters not explored, etc.
-PS. To avoid the flaming etc., find friends to play with since that should control the flaming and find a way to balance the teams. You will truly be able to see what the rave is all about only when you know how important your role is in the team and when you execute things together as a team in epic team battles/ganks. If you gain enough skill to play a carry, that's a totally different high!
I don't see the need to shit on any games. I personally don't care for LoL, HoN or DOTA but plenty do and anything which has a competitive scene where the gamers are making a living is a competitive eSport in my mind.
On August 03 2011 11:53 lunchforthesky wrote: I don't see the need to shit on any games. I personally don't care for LoL, HoN or DOTA but plenty do and anything which has a competitive scene where the gamers are making a living is a competitive eSport in my mind.
That's basically what I said about WoW, despite any negative criticism that went along with it.
On August 03 2011 10:30 Shiori wrote: it's a fun game, but I honestly don't see why people are arguing that it's going to be the #1 game or whatever. Esports is a large and open market, much like professional sports. Counterstrike was able to exist alongside SC1, and WC3 was able to exist alongside DotA. DotA 2 and SC2 appeal to totally different crowds and require vastly different skillsets. I happen to know a lot of professional DotA players on a somewhat personal level (mostly the American ones--FearDarkness etc) and so I do know a thing or two about DotA, despite never having played at the tip-top level. The thing is, this IS a publicity stunt, and DJWheat is totally correct in saying that. If DotA 2 succeeds, it will be because it's a great game, not because of money. Again, Wheat is correct. There is absolutely no reason for people to be mad at Wheat for stating the obvious: Valve is promoting Dota 2 with their wallets. It's a bold and clever move, but it's still a move. I would also like people to consider that GSL prizes are monthly and are between 50k-100k. SC2 has pretty big tournaments of its own, and that's just fine. I welcome Dota2; hopefully it impels Blizzard to sponsor something for SC2. Hopefully it makes sponsors look more closely at eSports.
Do I think Dota will take over SC2? Honestly, not really. Dota is a team game, and Sc2 isn't. Furthermore, I tend to think the games are regionally skewed. Dota is pretty much entirely based in China/nordic europe at this point, whereas SC2 has more market penetration plus an extremely old exposure in Korea. As far as skill, I don't think there are any true Bonjwas of DotA these days. Vigoss, LightofHeaven and Virtus Pro in general were at that level, but DotA today is getting very near to its skill ceiling. Games are won by metagaming rather than absolute displays of mechanical or strategic skill. That's not a bad thing; it's just a different style. Chinese teams are all pretty much competitive with one another, and European teams that actually play diligently can compete with those. I honestly don't think players have gotten a whole lot 'better' in a strict sense since I started following the competitive scene seriously several years ago. All that's changed is the metagame. The best teams have always been those who can adapt to the metagame the quickest (ganking versus farming etc).
Wheat, throw me a PM if you need anymore info. I'll even come on your show if you need it. People need to understand that these two games are NOT in competition with each other except on the fringes.
I don't know who you are, but as somebody who's in competitive Dota today, I can tell you that what you're saying about Dota skill ceiling is totaly false.
Everyday you see individual players doing clutch moves that amaze you and that were never seen before. Even comparing raw number and creepstats, when they decide to play the farming game, you see CS (creepstats) numbers you've never seen in the past. And as you know, those are factual numbers that cannot be discussed.
Individual Players are improving and keep improving everyday.
I ain't even speaking that out of the 100+ heroes, there are roughly 30+ heroes that are total outcast, almost never picked and are starting to see some daylight with the last 6.72 versions. This means plenty of comboes we have NEVER WHITNESSED before are in store for the futur. Trust me on that, and mark my words.
On August 03 2011 09:58 HarryKlein wrote: Sorry if this was posted already, but I think this is a great post (from Gosugamers.net)
Dj Wheat read this.
It's the same old story, a person without knowledge who belongs to a certain group of people/community protects himself by blocking and differentiating himself from "the other" via various means, normally linked to a strong sentiment of the own superiority and bestowing the own standards/believes onto something else.
All the information DjWheat needs/wants is out there, if he cares and is interested let him search it himself, there is no reason to answer to a disrespectful call like this. DotA does not have to proof itself anymore, it did that already. It's the reason there is a Dota 2, that there are major games like LoL and HoN and many other clones and that it is one of the most frequently played games of the world.
We could enter a discussion with him, yes, but we simply shouldn't fall for the cheap troll/flame bait attempts anymore. Do you think it's a coincidence that Totalbiscuits played DotA for 4 years (according to his own words)? That Husky (or HD? not sure anymore) explicitly mentioned DotA and items like Boots of Speed in his casts or that he used the annihilation quote from HoN?
It's because both are naturally RTS games, DotA may be a variation but it shares some very basic mechanics.
Don't let people like DjWheat fool you, DotA and Starcraft have always been "friends" or at least on good terms and had a surprisingly nice relationsship ever since Eul created DotA based on Aeon of Strafe (Valley of Disent too) from Starcraft. Many people follow(ed) or have been part of both scenes or have even been active in both. Babyknights decision to move to Starcraft was widely accepted and respected even on the troll-like GosuGamers community website, Xeqtr's appearance from CS in DotA was welcomed and players like Kuroky openly displayed their interest in Starcraft 2 aswell. And Athene even casually finds the time to troll both LoL and HoN in a way only he can do (and according to a statement from a friend of mine he already announced to win the Dota 2 Tournament at Gamescom on his own^^).
If you follow the TeamLiquid comments (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250261) concerning the Tournament (posted by 5-s, a player who too has openly displayed his interest in Starcraft 2 while being a talented DotA player and part-time caster) you will realize that there is a surprisingly friendly atmosphere in the thread.
The DotA community isn't like it was in 2006 either, young and craving for attention and recognition. It learned, matured, improved, it sustained itself, it maintained itself, despite heavy competition, all on it's own without backup which is why it is unique in it's own way in the world of eSports and why it does not have to answer to a person with a different set of standards and believes who wants to apply his own logic to something he does not know nor understand, without even considering to understand or LEARN about "the other" first. This basic lack of respect prevents the creation of understanding (for everbody who hates to think: Avatar by James Cameron was pretty much about this theme).
Respect has to be earned. DotA has learned to respect itself and shows respect to those who deserve it once you are able to see through the trollish shitstorm which interestingly, works the same way DjWheat's comments do, just into a different direction. It's also created the same way: by trollish, ignorant, disrespectful, uneducated, uninformed, childish and dumb comments.
You wanna talk? Send Totalbiscuits and leave it to him, he will understand and respect and in turn will be understood and respected despite possible frictions and different opinions.
And I suggest closing this thread because that's what always eventually happens: someone somewhere will say something stupid, someone will answer, and the true feelings from both sides will get lost in the religiously fanatical shitstorm that follows from both sides.
That post to me comes off as a little insecure(not to mention butthurt that there are indeed people out there who don't know what dota is), saying that dota doesn't need to prove itself to anyone and claiming djWheat's lack of knowledge of the dota scene is disrespectful. Yes DotA is incredibly popular, but there are tons of gamers out there who don't know or don't care about DotA. Its hostility to outsiders like this that makes the DotA community so shitty.
Yeah I don't see why the community shouldn't attempt to educate somebody who may not be up to date with their game of choice on the happenings in that scene. Especially when that person is a huge e-sports icon, not that it should matter to the community what the persons standings are anyways.
So far the responses from this thread and some of the responses from the forum that genozstrike posted on are fairly decent. I hope djwheat brings on someone who either plays dota competitively or is a caster for tomorrow's show as they could probably shed a lot more light on the subject.
Tobi wan of joindota.com has expressed interested in being on live on 3 as a guest. He casted many many tournaments including SMMs etc and will be the gamescom english caster. Not having him on to discuss the subject would be ridiculous. I would say try to get Tobi and any competitive player.. maybe kuroky (tobi can help arrange that most likely)
Kuroky would be an excellent choice as he's THE most well known Dota players in Europe and surely worldwide. He's the best player and the top solo carry in europe, actually. He's clearly the brand name, iconic player. He's also very smart and articulate, as well as fluent in english, so it should be a no brainer to invite him.
On August 03 2011 09:58 HarryKlein wrote: Sorry if this was posted already, but I think this is a great post (from Gosugamers.net)
Dj Wheat read this.
It's the same old story, a person without knowledge who belongs to a certain group of people/community protects himself by blocking and differentiating himself from "the other" via various means, normally linked to a strong sentiment of the own superiority and bestowing the own standards/believes onto something else.
All the information DjWheat needs/wants is out there, if he cares and is interested let him search it himself, there is no reason to answer to a disrespectful call like this. DotA does not have to proof itself anymore, it did that already. It's the reason there is a Dota 2, that there are major games like LoL and HoN and many other clones and that it is one of the most frequently played games of the world.
We could enter a discussion with him, yes, but we simply shouldn't fall for the cheap troll/flame bait attempts anymore. Do you think it's a coincidence that Totalbiscuits played DotA for 4 years (according to his own words)? That Husky (or HD? not sure anymore) explicitly mentioned DotA and items like Boots of Speed in his casts or that he used the annihilation quote from HoN?
It's because both are naturally RTS games, DotA may be a variation but it shares some very basic mechanics.
Don't let people like DjWheat fool you, DotA and Starcraft have always been "friends" or at least on good terms and had a surprisingly nice relationsship ever since Eul created DotA based on Aeon of Strafe (Valley of Disent too) from Starcraft. Many people follow(ed) or have been part of both scenes or have even been active in both. Babyknights decision to move to Starcraft was widely accepted and respected even on the troll-like GosuGamers community website, Xeqtr's appearance from CS in DotA was welcomed and players like Kuroky openly displayed their interest in Starcraft 2 aswell. And Athene even casually finds the time to troll both LoL and HoN in a way only he can do (and according to a statement from a friend of mine he already announced to win the Dota 2 Tournament at Gamescom on his own^^).
If you follow the TeamLiquid comments (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250261) concerning the Tournament (posted by 5-s, a player who too has openly displayed his interest in Starcraft 2 while being a talented DotA player and part-time caster) you will realize that there is a surprisingly friendly atmosphere in the thread.
The DotA community isn't like it was in 2006 either, young and craving for attention and recognition. It learned, matured, improved, it sustained itself, it maintained itself, despite heavy competition, all on it's own without backup which is why it is unique in it's own way in the world of eSports and why it does not have to answer to a person with a different set of standards and believes who wants to apply his own logic to something he does not know nor understand, without even considering to understand or LEARN about "the other" first. This basic lack of respect prevents the creation of understanding (for everbody who hates to think: Avatar by James Cameron was pretty much about this theme).
Respect has to be earned. DotA has learned to respect itself and shows respect to those who deserve it once you are able to see through the trollish shitstorm which interestingly, works the same way DjWheat's comments do, just into a different direction. It's also created the same way: by trollish, ignorant, disrespectful, uneducated, uninformed, childish and dumb comments.
You wanna talk? Send Totalbiscuits and leave it to him, he will understand and respect and in turn will be understood and respected despite possible frictions and different opinions.
And I suggest closing this thread because that's what always eventually happens: someone somewhere will say something stupid, someone will answer, and the true feelings from both sides will get lost in the religiously fanatical shitstorm that follows from both sides.
That post to me comes off as a little insecure(not to mention butthurt that there are indeed people out there who don't know what dota is), saying that dota doesn't need to prove itself to anyone and claiming djWheat's lack of knowledge of the dota scene is disrespectful. Yes DotA is incredibly popular, but there are tons of gamers out there who don't know or don't care about DotA. Its hostility to outsiders like this that makes the DotA community so shitty.
Yeah I don't see why the community shouldn't attempt to educate somebody who may not be up to date with their game of choice on the happenings in that scene. Especially when that person is a huge e-sports icon, not that it should matter to the community what the persons standings are anyways.
So far the responses from this thread and some of the responses from the forum that genozstrike posted on are fairly decent. I hope djwheat brings on someone who either plays dota competitively or is a caster for tomorrow's show as they could probably shed a lot more light on the subject.
Tobi wan of joindota.com has expressed interested in being on live on 3 as a guest. He casted many many tournaments including SMMs etc and will be the gamescom english caster. Not having him on to discuss the subject would be ridiculous. I would say try to get Tobi and any competitive player.. maybe kuroky (tobi can help arrange that most likely)
Kuroky would be an excellent choice as he's THE most well known Dota players in Europe and surely worldwide. He's the best player and the top solo carry in europe, actually. He's clearly the brand name, iconic player. He's also very smart and articulate, as well as fluent in english, so it should be a no brainer to invite him.
Kuroky . Such a great individual player but so bad at dealing with teams. I think the only player that can get along with him is Puppy :D. But he would be a good choice to have on if you can get him.
On August 03 2011 10:30 Shiori wrote: it's a fun game, but I honestly don't see why people are arguing that it's going to be the #1 game or whatever. Esports is a large and open market, much like professional sports. Counterstrike was able to exist alongside SC1, and WC3 was able to exist alongside DotA. DotA 2 and SC2 appeal to totally different crowds and require vastly different skillsets. I happen to know a lot of professional DotA players on a somewhat personal level (mostly the American ones--FearDarkness etc) and so I do know a thing or two about DotA, despite never having played at the tip-top level. The thing is, this IS a publicity stunt, and DJWheat is totally correct in saying that. If DotA 2 succeeds, it will be because it's a great game, not because of money. Again, Wheat is correct. There is absolutely no reason for people to be mad at Wheat for stating the obvious: Valve is promoting Dota 2 with their wallets. It's a bold and clever move, but it's still a move. I would also like people to consider that GSL prizes are monthly and are between 50k-100k. SC2 has pretty big tournaments of its own, and that's just fine. I welcome Dota2; hopefully it impels Blizzard to sponsor something for SC2. Hopefully it makes sponsors look more closely at eSports.
Do I think Dota will take over SC2? Honestly, not really. Dota is a team game, and Sc2 isn't. Furthermore, I tend to think the games are regionally skewed. Dota is pretty much entirely based in China/nordic europe at this point, whereas SC2 has more market penetration plus an extremely old exposure in Korea. As far as skill, I don't think there are any true Bonjwas of DotA these days. Vigoss, LightofHeaven and Virtus Pro in general were at that level, but DotA today is getting very near to its skill ceiling. Games are won by metagaming rather than absolute displays of mechanical or strategic skill. That's not a bad thing; it's just a different style. Chinese teams are all pretty much competitive with one another, and European teams that actually play diligently can compete with those. I honestly don't think players have gotten a whole lot 'better' in a strict sense since I started following the competitive scene seriously several years ago. All that's changed is the metagame. The best teams have always been those who can adapt to the metagame the quickest (ganking versus farming etc).
Wheat, throw me a PM if you need anymore info. I'll even come on your show if you need it. People need to understand that these two games are NOT in competition with each other except on the fringes.
I don't know who you are, but as somebody who's in competitive Dota today, I can tell you that what you're saying about Dota skill ceiling is totaly false.
Everyday you see individual players doing clutch moves that amaze you and that were never seen before. Even comparing raw number and creepstats, when they decide to play the farming game, you see CS (creepstats) numbers you've never seen in the past. And as you know, those are factual numbers that cannot be discussed.
Individual Players are improving and keep improving everyday.
I ain't even speaking that out of the 100+ heroes, there are roughly 30+ heroes that are total outcast, almost never picked and are starting to see some daylight with the last 6.72 versions. This means plenty of comboes we have NEVER WHITNESSED before are in store for the futur. Trust me on that, and mark my words.
You guys have seen nothing yet about Dota.
I'm not saying dota has nowhere to go. I'm saying it's been around long enough that on a level of mechanics and so on things are pretty well defined. Even very basic strategies are well defined. The main thing that I'm saying is that DotA can still go upwards in terms of metagame and strategy. clutch moves are one thing, but the STYLE of dota has stabilized a lot now. It's not quite as daring s the 48b era. That's all I mean to say. It's not an indictment of the game. There are ways to improve; but mechanical skill and playing ability is taking second place to picking and cohesive strategy.
On August 03 2011 10:30 Shiori wrote: it's a fun game, but I honestly don't see why people are arguing that it's going to be the #1 game or whatever. Esports is a large and open market, much like professional sports. Counterstrike was able to exist alongside SC1, and WC3 was able to exist alongside DotA. DotA 2 and SC2 appeal to totally different crowds and require vastly different skillsets. I happen to know a lot of professional DotA players on a somewhat personal level (mostly the American ones--FearDarkness etc) and so I do know a thing or two about DotA, despite never having played at the tip-top level. The thing is, this IS a publicity stunt, and DJWheat is totally correct in saying that. If DotA 2 succeeds, it will be because it's a great game, not because of money. Again, Wheat is correct. There is absolutely no reason for people to be mad at Wheat for stating the obvious: Valve is promoting Dota 2 with their wallets. It's a bold and clever move, but it's still a move. I would also like people to consider that GSL prizes are monthly and are between 50k-100k. SC2 has pretty big tournaments of its own, and that's just fine. I welcome Dota2; hopefully it impels Blizzard to sponsor something for SC2. Hopefully it makes sponsors look more closely at eSports.
Do I think Dota will take over SC2? Honestly, not really. Dota is a team game, and Sc2 isn't. Furthermore, I tend to think the games are regionally skewed. Dota is pretty much entirely based in China/nordic europe at this point, whereas SC2 has more market penetration plus an extremely old exposure in Korea. As far as skill, I don't think there are any true Bonjwas of DotA these days. Vigoss, LightofHeaven and Virtus Pro in general were at that level, but DotA today is getting very near to its skill ceiling. Games are won by metagaming rather than absolute displays of mechanical or strategic skill. That's not a bad thing; it's just a different style. Chinese teams are all pretty much competitive with one another, and European teams that actually play diligently can compete with those. I honestly don't think players have gotten a whole lot 'better' in a strict sense since I started following the competitive scene seriously several years ago. All that's changed is the metagame. The best teams have always been those who can adapt to the metagame the quickest (ganking versus farming etc).
Wheat, throw me a PM if you need anymore info. I'll even come on your show if you need it. People need to understand that these two games are NOT in competition with each other except on the fringes.
I don't know who you are, but as somebody who's in competitive Dota today, I can tell you that what you're saying about Dota skill ceiling is totaly false.
Everyday you see individual players doing clutch moves that amaze you and that were never seen before. Even comparing raw number and creepstats, when they decide to play the farming game, you see CS (creepstats) numbers you've never seen in the past. And as you know, those are factual numbers that cannot be discussed.
Individual Players are improving and keep improving everyday.
I ain't even speaking that out of the 100+ heroes, there are roughly 30+ heroes that are total outcast, almost never picked and are starting to see some daylight with the last 6.72 versions. This means plenty of comboes we have NEVER WHITNESSED before are in store for the futur. Trust me on that, and mark my words.
You guys have seen nothing yet about Dota.
Quoted for the truth. Not just that, the timings and coordination are becoming more crisp as well, 0.1 seconds can sometimes be the diff btw life and death. Also w more players, more heroes and builds will be uncovered.
On August 03 2011 09:58 HarryKlein wrote: Sorry if this was posted already, but I think this is a great post (from Gosugamers.net)
Dj Wheat read this.
It's the same old story, a person without knowledge who belongs to a certain group of people/community protects himself by blocking and differentiating himself from "the other" via various means, normally linked to a strong sentiment of the own superiority and bestowing the own standards/believes onto something else.
All the information DjWheat needs/wants is out there, if he cares and is interested let him search it himself, there is no reason to answer to a disrespectful call like this. DotA does not have to proof itself anymore, it did that already. It's the reason there is a Dota 2, that there are major games like LoL and HoN and many other clones and that it is one of the most frequently played games of the world.
We could enter a discussion with him, yes, but we simply shouldn't fall for the cheap troll/flame bait attempts anymore. Do you think it's a coincidence that Totalbiscuits played DotA for 4 years (according to his own words)? That Husky (or HD? not sure anymore) explicitly mentioned DotA and items like Boots of Speed in his casts or that he used the annihilation quote from HoN?
It's because both are naturally RTS games, DotA may be a variation but it shares some very basic mechanics.
Don't let people like DjWheat fool you, DotA and Starcraft have always been "friends" or at least on good terms and had a surprisingly nice relationsship ever since Eul created DotA based on Aeon of Strafe (Valley of Disent too) from Starcraft. Many people follow(ed) or have been part of both scenes or have even been active in both. Babyknights decision to move to Starcraft was widely accepted and respected even on the troll-like GosuGamers community website, Xeqtr's appearance from CS in DotA was welcomed and players like Kuroky openly displayed their interest in Starcraft 2 aswell. And Athene even casually finds the time to troll both LoL and HoN in a way only he can do (and according to a statement from a friend of mine he already announced to win the Dota 2 Tournament at Gamescom on his own^^).
If you follow the TeamLiquid comments (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250261) concerning the Tournament (posted by 5-s, a player who too has openly displayed his interest in Starcraft 2 while being a talented DotA player and part-time caster) you will realize that there is a surprisingly friendly atmosphere in the thread.
The DotA community isn't like it was in 2006 either, young and craving for attention and recognition. It learned, matured, improved, it sustained itself, it maintained itself, despite heavy competition, all on it's own without backup which is why it is unique in it's own way in the world of eSports and why it does not have to answer to a person with a different set of standards and believes who wants to apply his own logic to something he does not know nor understand, without even considering to understand or LEARN about "the other" first. This basic lack of respect prevents the creation of understanding (for everbody who hates to think: Avatar by James Cameron was pretty much about this theme).
Respect has to be earned. DotA has learned to respect itself and shows respect to those who deserve it once you are able to see through the trollish shitstorm which interestingly, works the same way DjWheat's comments do, just into a different direction. It's also created the same way: by trollish, ignorant, disrespectful, uneducated, uninformed, childish and dumb comments.
You wanna talk? Send Totalbiscuits and leave it to him, he will understand and respect and in turn will be understood and respected despite possible frictions and different opinions.
And I suggest closing this thread because that's what always eventually happens: someone somewhere will say something stupid, someone will answer, and the true feelings from both sides will get lost in the religiously fanatical shitstorm that follows from both sides.
That post to me comes off as a little insecure(not to mention butthurt that there are indeed people out there who don't know what dota is), saying that dota doesn't need to prove itself to anyone and claiming djWheat's lack of knowledge of the dota scene is disrespectful. Yes DotA is incredibly popular, but there are tons of gamers out there who don't know or don't care about DotA. Its hostility to outsiders like this that makes the DotA community so shitty.
Yeah I don't see why the community shouldn't attempt to educate somebody who may not be up to date with their game of choice on the happenings in that scene. Especially when that person is a huge e-sports icon, not that it should matter to the community what the persons standings are anyways.
So far the responses from this thread and some of the responses from the forum that genozstrike posted on are fairly decent. I hope djwheat brings on someone who either plays dota competitively or is a caster for tomorrow's show as they could probably shed a lot more light on the subject.
Tobi wan of joindota.com has expressed interested in being on live on 3 as a guest. He casted many many tournaments including SMMs etc and will be the gamescom english caster. Not having him on to discuss the subject would be ridiculous. I would say try to get Tobi and any competitive player.. maybe kuroky (tobi can help arrange that most likely)
Kuroky would be an excellent choice as he's THE most well known Dota players in Europe and surely worldwide. He's the best player and the top solo carry in europe, actually. He's clearly the brand name, iconic player. He's also very smart and articulate, as well as fluent in english, so it should be a no brainer to invite him.
Kuroky . Such a great individual player but so bad at dealing with teams. I think the only player that can get along with him is Puppy :D. But he would be a good choice to have on if you can get him.
Should read his latest blog on gosugamers. It's going to be tough against the professional teams and leagues in China. If Kuroky and his team wants to be the best, they should try and join the Chinese league, or have a champions league or something.
On August 03 2011 12:18 Tobi_Wan_Kenobi wrote: It is at this point I wonder if Yeaaaah thinks I check this or not.
meh...keep the hate coming man
Ahahaha, am excited for The International!! Looking forward to the games and casting. I joined joindota already. Hope you guys can remain stabile for a long time to come!
On August 03 2011 09:58 HarryKlein wrote: Sorry if this was posted already, but I think this is a great post (from Gosugamers.net)
Dj Wheat read this.
It's the same old story, a person without knowledge who belongs to a certain group of people/community protects himself by blocking and differentiating himself from "the other" via various means, normally linked to a strong sentiment of the own superiority and bestowing the own standards/believes onto something else.
All the information DjWheat needs/wants is out there, if he cares and is interested let him search it himself, there is no reason to answer to a disrespectful call like this. DotA does not have to proof itself anymore, it did that already. It's the reason there is a Dota 2, that there are major games like LoL and HoN and many other clones and that it is one of the most frequently played games of the world.
We could enter a discussion with him, yes, but we simply shouldn't fall for the cheap troll/flame bait attempts anymore. Do you think it's a coincidence that Totalbiscuits played DotA for 4 years (according to his own words)? That Husky (or HD? not sure anymore) explicitly mentioned DotA and items like Boots of Speed in his casts or that he used the annihilation quote from HoN?
It's because both are naturally RTS games, DotA may be a variation but it shares some very basic mechanics.
Don't let people like DjWheat fool you, DotA and Starcraft have always been "friends" or at least on good terms and had a surprisingly nice relationsship ever since Eul created DotA based on Aeon of Strafe (Valley of Disent too) from Starcraft. Many people follow(ed) or have been part of both scenes or have even been active in both. Babyknights decision to move to Starcraft was widely accepted and respected even on the troll-like GosuGamers community website, Xeqtr's appearance from CS in DotA was welcomed and players like Kuroky openly displayed their interest in Starcraft 2 aswell. And Athene even casually finds the time to troll both LoL and HoN in a way only he can do (and according to a statement from a friend of mine he already announced to win the Dota 2 Tournament at Gamescom on his own^^).
If you follow the TeamLiquid comments (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250261) concerning the Tournament (posted by 5-s, a player who too has openly displayed his interest in Starcraft 2 while being a talented DotA player and part-time caster) you will realize that there is a surprisingly friendly atmosphere in the thread.
The DotA community isn't like it was in 2006 either, young and craving for attention and recognition. It learned, matured, improved, it sustained itself, it maintained itself, despite heavy competition, all on it's own without backup which is why it is unique in it's own way in the world of eSports and why it does not have to answer to a person with a different set of standards and believes who wants to apply his own logic to something he does not know nor understand, without even considering to understand or LEARN about "the other" first. This basic lack of respect prevents the creation of understanding (for everbody who hates to think: Avatar by James Cameron was pretty much about this theme).
Respect has to be earned. DotA has learned to respect itself and shows respect to those who deserve it once you are able to see through the trollish shitstorm which interestingly, works the same way DjWheat's comments do, just into a different direction. It's also created the same way: by trollish, ignorant, disrespectful, uneducated, uninformed, childish and dumb comments.
You wanna talk? Send Totalbiscuits and leave it to him, he will understand and respect and in turn will be understood and respected despite possible frictions and different opinions.
And I suggest closing this thread because that's what always eventually happens: someone somewhere will say something stupid, someone will answer, and the true feelings from both sides will get lost in the religiously fanatical shitstorm that follows from both sides.
That post to me comes off as a little insecure(not to mention butthurt that there are indeed people out there who don't know what dota is), saying that dota doesn't need to prove itself to anyone and claiming djWheat's lack of knowledge of the dota scene is disrespectful. Yes DotA is incredibly popular, but there are tons of gamers out there who don't know or don't care about DotA. Its hostility to outsiders like this that makes the DotA community so shitty.
Yeah I don't see why the community shouldn't attempt to educate somebody who may not be up to date with their game of choice on the happenings in that scene. Especially when that person is a huge e-sports icon, not that it should matter to the community what the persons standings are anyways.
So far the responses from this thread and some of the responses from the forum that genozstrike posted on are fairly decent. I hope djwheat brings on someone who either plays dota competitively or is a caster for tomorrow's show as they could probably shed a lot more light on the subject.
Tobi wan of joindota.com has expressed interested in being on live on 3 as a guest. He casted many many tournaments including SMMs etc and will be the gamescom english caster. Not having him on to discuss the subject would be ridiculous. I would say try to get Tobi and any competitive player.. maybe kuroky (tobi can help arrange that most likely)
Kuroky would be an excellent choice as he's THE most well known Dota players in Europe and surely worldwide. He's the best player and the top solo carry in europe, actually. He's clearly the brand name, iconic player. He's also very smart and articulate, as well as fluent in english, so it should be a no brainer to invite him.
Kuroky . Such a great individual player but so bad at dealing with teams. I think the only player that can get along with him is Puppy :D. But he would be a good choice to have on if you can get him.
Should read his latest blog on gosugamers. It's going to be tough against the professional teams and leagues in China. If Kuroky and his team wants to be the best, they should try and join the Chinese league, or have a champions league or something.
Oh man that made me so sad: http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/features/2760 . Didn't know they parted ways. But the story posted is actually a pretty good introduction to the western dota scene, from its humble beginnings, to its heartbreaking humiliation by the Chinese scene in its first meeting, Kuroky has been at the forefront of it for a long time.
Since I've been somewhat blasted about the questions I asked (especially due to some not knowing the context of the discussion), I thought I would give my "thinking" on each question as I was writing it. And why I was asking the question in relation to my own knowledge.
- Of the established leagues and competitions, who is the largest, what is the frequency of said events, and how much prize money has been given out (average) during these competitions?
This one is pretty obvious. There are hundreds of competitions out there I don't know about, from Smash Bros. to Trackmania to DotA. My thinking was that by asking this question I could get a large sample of events from people to see the scope better. That's exactly what most answers produced. Almost everyone named the largest leagues and then talked about leagues they took interest in. Because my knowledge was pretty limited to things like ESWC and BlizzCon, I thought it would be appropriate.
- DotA is popular in Asia, so are a million really bad MMO's... what efforts have been made to bring DotA OUT of Asia to other countries? (i.e. GomTV began English broadcasting several years ago). Does it need to leave Asia?
Ok, I didn't need to put the jab about the really bad MMO's in there. However, I've done events from China, I've worked with gaming companies in China, and I'm very aware about the gaming bubble which exists over there (it's quite amazing as I'm sure many of you know). I asked this question because while I was doing research on the leagues and the Chinese player base I saw quite a few parallels between DotA and SC:BW. That's why I also asked if it needs to leave Asia because I wanted to know if people had a similar perspective. Many foreigner BW fans were fine with it in Korea because they had exposure to it. So it's almost leading up to a BW->SC2 scenario where SC2 starts mimicking Korea in foreign markets. Again I was looking for a DotA fan's perspective.
- Who is the Day[9] of DotA?
I asked the same question prior to this list but it was worded differently. Who is the ambassador of DotA? With such an expansive community it seems like the field is quite limited in that regard. It was very obvious to me while researching that there are some die hard mother fuckers in DotA. I respect the hell out of that. I was wondering who those people are. I think maybe using Day[9] with out additional context prompted some people to say, "Well shit, there isn't anyone who does a Daily like Sean" (although it sounds like there is based on some tweets I got). I was more or less wondering who is the man sitting on top the mountain spilling the word to the community?
- With such a popular community, teams, etc... why haven't we seen DotA showcased at well-known international eSports competitions? I know that it made some appearances at WCG, ESWC, and Blizzard events, but these were typically "one off" type competitions?
This question... is condescending as fuck. My bad. Even though I asked a shitty question, I still got some fantastic responses. The two most referenced issues were due to the fact that DotA was a Mod and that licensing was an issue... and that the game had it's own set of problems (when not used on one of the many services it's available on today).
- Does the population of Chinese players (which sounds like it's the biggest landscape of players) rely on non-legit versions of WarCraft 3: TFT? I always felt like one of the biggest issues with the advancement of DotA dating back to like BlizzCon 2005 was the fact that new players had to purchase WC3... this was also a problem with games like Quake 3. I'm just curious how that works in China (and everywhere else for that matter)
I feel like some individuals interpreted this question as me attacking the community because I asked about the piracy. Not the case. Quake 3 CPMA had similar problems. For one, people had to get a copy of quake. Then they had to download this and that and make their config and it was impossible to get anyone into the game. THEN if you got them in... you might slaughter them and they don't want to play anymore.
What I found out was most use systems similar to iCCUP which just happens to be the method of playing the game.
- Is the DotA community satisfied living in a self-contained bubble? It seems like other eSports games/audiences are fairly uneducated when it comes to the history Rotegirte provided in this thread.
Man, if you didn't see this thread then that question probably made me look like the biggest douchebag. I believe there are quite a few people (and I'm one of them) that don't know jack shit about the competitive DotA scene. In my experience, people in pro-gaming (from my background) are "aware" of DotA, but not necessarily as indepth as the history provided in this thread.
The usage of "self-contained bubble" probably came off as somewhat abrasive, but it's similar to the Fighting Game Scene here in the US. It was large, yet small, and then when SF4 hit the whole thing exploded. It was a self-contained bubble for quite sometime and was very successful even before the "boom". It wasn't meant to be disrespectful, but it is my philosophy that a game and community is better off without the bubble.
- Why do you think there are people (like myself) who have extensive knowledge in eSports, yet don't know much about DotA? Is this the fault of the individual? Or is it the fault of the collective DotA community? Or is there no fault at all and it's just two paths that have not crossed?
Someone else actually said it best. It was more self-reflection. I asked for it in this one. Some blamed me, others blamed the community, some said it was the game itself. My interest in gaming has expanded over many games. I knew that if I asked this question I would get straight responses and I was hoping to get them from the perspective of a dedicated DotA player/fan.
- If someone heard about DotA and wanted to get into it at the most basic level, which website would you send them to? If I had no one to ask, how hard would it be for me to find? Would it be PLAYDOTA.com?
Pretty straight forward.
- SC2 and Street Fighter 4 have been two games that have proven that they can carry an active audience of people who do not even play the game. Do you think this audience already exists in the DotA scene and if not, do you think it can?
I'm pretty vocal about the fact that I believe these games have a difficult time appealing to someone outside of the player base. Remarkably, both SC2 and SF4 (maybe even MvC3 and MK9) have proven to have this "magic" which draws non-players to the games. I give credit to DotA for being an intense game of complexity... but I feel like it's like trying to cram a 1000 page book into a 2 hour movie.
- Who is your favorite team?
Just wanted to see if there was a "dominate" answer.
On August 03 2011 09:58 HarryKlein wrote: Sorry if this was posted already, but I think this is a great post (from Gosugamers.net)
Dj Wheat read this.
It's the same old story, a person without knowledge who belongs to a certain group of people/community protects himself by blocking and differentiating himself from "the other" via various means, normally linked to a strong sentiment of the own superiority and bestowing the own standards/believes onto something else.
All the information DjWheat needs/wants is out there, if he cares and is interested let him search it himself, there is no reason to answer to a disrespectful call like this. DotA does not have to proof itself anymore, it did that already. It's the reason there is a Dota 2, that there are major games like LoL and HoN and many other clones and that it is one of the most frequently played games of the world.
We could enter a discussion with him, yes, but we simply shouldn't fall for the cheap troll/flame bait attempts anymore. Do you think it's a coincidence that Totalbiscuits played DotA for 4 years (according to his own words)? That Husky (or HD? not sure anymore) explicitly mentioned DotA and items like Boots of Speed in his casts or that he used the annihilation quote from HoN?
It's because both are naturally RTS games, DotA may be a variation but it shares some very basic mechanics.
Don't let people like DjWheat fool you, DotA and Starcraft have always been "friends" or at least on good terms and had a surprisingly nice relationsship ever since Eul created DotA based on Aeon of Strafe (Valley of Disent too) from Starcraft. Many people follow(ed) or have been part of both scenes or have even been active in both. Babyknights decision to move to Starcraft was widely accepted and respected even on the troll-like GosuGamers community website, Xeqtr's appearance from CS in DotA was welcomed and players like Kuroky openly displayed their interest in Starcraft 2 aswell. And Athene even casually finds the time to troll both LoL and HoN in a way only he can do (and according to a statement from a friend of mine he already announced to win the Dota 2 Tournament at Gamescom on his own^^).
If you follow the TeamLiquid comments (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250261) concerning the Tournament (posted by 5-s, a player who too has openly displayed his interest in Starcraft 2 while being a talented DotA player and part-time caster) you will realize that there is a surprisingly friendly atmosphere in the thread.
The DotA community isn't like it was in 2006 either, young and craving for attention and recognition. It learned, matured, improved, it sustained itself, it maintained itself, despite heavy competition, all on it's own without backup which is why it is unique in it's own way in the world of eSports and why it does not have to answer to a person with a different set of standards and believes who wants to apply his own logic to something he does not know nor understand, without even considering to understand or LEARN about "the other" first. This basic lack of respect prevents the creation of understanding (for everbody who hates to think: Avatar by James Cameron was pretty much about this theme).
Respect has to be earned. DotA has learned to respect itself and shows respect to those who deserve it once you are able to see through the trollish shitstorm which interestingly, works the same way DjWheat's comments do, just into a different direction. It's also created the same way: by trollish, ignorant, disrespectful, uneducated, uninformed, childish and dumb comments.
You wanna talk? Send Totalbiscuits and leave it to him, he will understand and respect and in turn will be understood and respected despite possible frictions and different opinions.
And I suggest closing this thread because that's what always eventually happens: someone somewhere will say something stupid, someone will answer, and the true feelings from both sides will get lost in the religiously fanatical shitstorm that follows from both sides.
That post to me comes off as a little insecure(not to mention butthurt that there are indeed people out there who don't know what dota is), saying that dota doesn't need to prove itself to anyone and claiming djWheat's lack of knowledge of the dota scene is disrespectful. Yes DotA is incredibly popular, but there are tons of gamers out there who don't know or don't care about DotA. Its hostility to outsiders like this that makes the DotA community so shitty.
Yeah I don't see why the community shouldn't attempt to educate somebody who may not be up to date with their game of choice on the happenings in that scene. Especially when that person is a huge e-sports icon, not that it should matter to the community what the persons standings are anyways.
So far the responses from this thread and some of the responses from the forum that genozstrike posted on are fairly decent. I hope djwheat brings on someone who either plays dota competitively or is a caster for tomorrow's show as they could probably shed a lot more light on the subject.
Tobi wan of joindota.com has expressed interested in being on live on 3 as a guest. He casted many many tournaments including SMMs etc and will be the gamescom english caster. Not having him on to discuss the subject would be ridiculous. I would say try to get Tobi and any competitive player.. maybe kuroky (tobi can help arrange that most likely)
Kuroky would be an excellent choice as he's THE most well known Dota players in Europe and surely worldwide. He's the best player and the top solo carry in europe, actually. He's clearly the brand name, iconic player. He's also very smart and articulate, as well as fluent in english, so it should be a no brainer to invite him.
On August 03 2011 09:58 HarryKlein wrote: Sorry if this was posted already, but I think this is a great post (from Gosugamers.net)
Dj Wheat read this.
It's the same old story, a person without knowledge who belongs to a certain group of people/community protects himself by blocking and differentiating himself from "the other" via various means, normally linked to a strong sentiment of the own superiority and bestowing the own standards/believes onto something else.
All the information DjWheat needs/wants is out there, if he cares and is interested let him search it himself, there is no reason to answer to a disrespectful call like this. DotA does not have to proof itself anymore, it did that already. It's the reason there is a Dota 2, that there are major games like LoL and HoN and many other clones and that it is one of the most frequently played games of the world.
We could enter a discussion with him, yes, but we simply shouldn't fall for the cheap troll/flame bait attempts anymore. Do you think it's a coincidence that Totalbiscuits played DotA for 4 years (according to his own words)? That Husky (or HD? not sure anymore) explicitly mentioned DotA and items like Boots of Speed in his casts or that he used the annihilation quote from HoN?
It's because both are naturally RTS games, DotA may be a variation but it shares some very basic mechanics.
Don't let people like DjWheat fool you, DotA and Starcraft have always been "friends" or at least on good terms and had a surprisingly nice relationsship ever since Eul created DotA based on Aeon of Strafe (Valley of Disent too) from Starcraft. Many people follow(ed) or have been part of both scenes or have even been active in both. Babyknights decision to move to Starcraft was widely accepted and respected even on the troll-like GosuGamers community website, Xeqtr's appearance from CS in DotA was welcomed and players like Kuroky openly displayed their interest in Starcraft 2 aswell. And Athene even casually finds the time to troll both LoL and HoN in a way only he can do (and according to a statement from a friend of mine he already announced to win the Dota 2 Tournament at Gamescom on his own^^).
If you follow the TeamLiquid comments (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250261) concerning the Tournament (posted by 5-s, a player who too has openly displayed his interest in Starcraft 2 while being a talented DotA player and part-time caster) you will realize that there is a surprisingly friendly atmosphere in the thread.
The DotA community isn't like it was in 2006 either, young and craving for attention and recognition. It learned, matured, improved, it sustained itself, it maintained itself, despite heavy competition, all on it's own without backup which is why it is unique in it's own way in the world of eSports and why it does not have to answer to a person with a different set of standards and believes who wants to apply his own logic to something he does not know nor understand, without even considering to understand or LEARN about "the other" first. This basic lack of respect prevents the creation of understanding (for everbody who hates to think: Avatar by James Cameron was pretty much about this theme).
Respect has to be earned. DotA has learned to respect itself and shows respect to those who deserve it once you are able to see through the trollish shitstorm which interestingly, works the same way DjWheat's comments do, just into a different direction. It's also created the same way: by trollish, ignorant, disrespectful, uneducated, uninformed, childish and dumb comments.
You wanna talk? Send Totalbiscuits and leave it to him, he will understand and respect and in turn will be understood and respected despite possible frictions and different opinions.
And I suggest closing this thread because that's what always eventually happens: someone somewhere will say something stupid, someone will answer, and the true feelings from both sides will get lost in the religiously fanatical shitstorm that follows from both sides.
That post to me comes off as a little insecure(not to mention butthurt that there are indeed people out there who don't know what dota is), saying that dota doesn't need to prove itself to anyone and claiming djWheat's lack of knowledge of the dota scene is disrespectful. Yes DotA is incredibly popular, but there are tons of gamers out there who don't know or don't care about DotA. Its hostility to outsiders like this that makes the DotA community so shitty.
Yeah I don't see why the community shouldn't attempt to educate somebody who may not be up to date with their game of choice on the happenings in that scene. Especially when that person is a huge e-sports icon, not that it should matter to the community what the persons standings are anyways.
So far the responses from this thread and some of the responses from the forum that genozstrike posted on are fairly decent. I hope djwheat brings on someone who either plays dota competitively or is a caster for tomorrow's show as they could probably shed a lot more light on the subject.
Tobi wan of joindota.com has expressed interested in being on live on 3 as a guest. He casted many many tournaments including SMMs etc and will be the gamescom english caster. Not having him on to discuss the subject would be ridiculous. I would say try to get Tobi and any competitive player.. maybe kuroky (tobi can help arrange that most likely)
Kuroky would be an excellent choice as he's THE most well known Dota players in Europe and surely worldwide. He's the best player and the top solo carry in europe, actually. He's clearly the brand name, iconic player. He's also very smart and articulate, as well as fluent in english, so it should be a no brainer to invite him.
If either of you can help me get contact information within a short amount of time I would love to do that. Those are the two names I've heard the most throughout the day.
Kuroky is the captain for team gosugamers, I would suggest trying to contact him through them. Tobi wan is posting in this thread.
EPT
. Such a great individual player but so bad at dealing with teams. I think the only player that can get along with him is Puppy :D. But he would be a good choice to have on if you can get him.
