On August 02 2011 17:25 FXOpen wrote: Ummm... wheat...... T_T
Dota is huge in asia.. It still is huge in asia... And from what I have seen dota2 is going to be equally as huge if not more as huge.
It probably was smallest in the US I dno why.. But dota is a big deal. HoN and LoL were built because of Dota.... Theres an enormous market for it.
I can't justify putting up the prize money that valve are. And it is a form of marketing. But its good marketing, and will no doubt steal players from other markets to boost the dota presence.
My only concern, which is the same for alot of the games you love Mr Wheat. Is that dota is not very good for spectators who dont play the game. I hope dota2 has improved on that.
Dota is a game first and foremost, that the players LOVE playing. The possibly 100 million players in the world who play. The better execution, teamwork, strategy always wins. The millions who enjoy playing, will always be interested in the highest level of play and watching magnificent skill displayed. Those who do not play, will unfortunately never be able to appreciate it. Like watching American football or cricket without knowing the rules, and never trying it out (and know how much depth and complexity there is).
Tobiwant Kenobi and to a lesser extend Madmortigan are the guys we have, and they are both very very weak. They are either both pretty incompetent technically in their deep knowledge of the advanced game strategy (they conceide it themselves), and are too neerdy/stupid-looking/non-serious to be taken seriously for big big profile competition.
They, quit simply, blow. No offense, but that's what most serious peoples is thinking. The fact is that they are no other ones at the moment as historically Dota is not a game with a big shoutcasting culture, people prefer to watch and follow the game themselves on WTV because of the freedom and superior image quality. So today, we basically have no choice and those commentators are forced down our throat. I'm a Dota Pro, I speak with many of the pros in the scene, as well as read most of the comments on Playdota.com and gosugamers, and appart from little kids who like to watch Tobiwan dancing like a moron in front of his webcam, all other peoples dislikes this kind of 2nd rate casting.
We need some guys who are REAL PROFESSIONAL and know their stuff. Some guys who can be the voice of Dota.
But it will certainly come pretty soon and pretty fast, with so much money and such a HUGE COMMUNITY. The future of Dota now can only go in one direction : Professionalization.
I, and everyone else, agrees with you on the fact that Tobi does not have deep knowledge of the game at a professional level, but he does show professionalism in how he presents his casts. He does get extremely energetic which is where his goofiness comes from, but if you dress him up he will certainly appear to be a professional. What Tobi needs is a true professional player to cast with him to provide what he is lacking.
For those who do not know Tobi is very similar to Total Biscuit in his style of casting, and his points about WTV and the shoutcasting culture are correct.
So true, like Total Biscuit's level of analysis (not insightful but 'professional' and nice on the ears nonetheless) as well. Dotacommentaries' Luminous is better because he knows the heroes in-depth and plays at a high-level. If you would like top-level analysis to understand the level of depth, execution, timing and complexity in a pro game, check out
Just for the sake of the contents of the discussion being as accurate as possible, I just wanted to add that the original creator of DotA was Eul (from TheWarCenter) during Reign of Chaos. It is based on the Aeon of Strife UMS from SC1. Icefrog, Guinsoo, etc. were responsible for porting it to The Frozen Throne (DotA Allstars) and drastically overhauling it.
As for all of Wheat's questions, I can't really answer them since I haven't kept up with competitive DotA since the original version...aside from my favorite team being WARD. <3
It's the same old story, a person without knowledge who belongs to a certain group of people/community protects himself by blocking and differentiating himself from "the other" via various means, normally linked to a strong sentiment of the own superiority and bestowing the own standards/believes onto something else.
All the information DjWheat needs/wants is out there, if he cares and is interested let him search it himself, there is no reason to answer to a disrespectful call like this. DotA does not have to proof itself anymore, it did that already. It's the reason there is a Dota 2, that there are major games like LoL and HoN and many other clones and that it is one of the most frequently played games of the world.
We could enter a discussion with him, yes, but we simply shouldn't fall for the cheap troll/flame bait attempts anymore. Do you think it's a coincidence that Totalbiscuits played DotA for 4 years (according to his own words)? That Husky (or HD? not sure anymore) explicitly mentioned DotA and items like Boots of Speed in his casts or that he used the annihilation quote from HoN?
It's because both are naturally RTS games, DotA may be a variation but it shares some very basic mechanics.
Don't let people like DjWheat fool you, DotA and Starcraft have always been "friends" or at least on good terms and had a surprisingly nice relationsship ever since Eul created DotA based on Aeon of Strafe (Valley of Disent too) from Starcraft. Many people follow(ed) or have been part of both scenes or have even been active in both. Babyknights decision to move to Starcraft was widely accepted and respected even on the troll-like GosuGamers community website, Xeqtr's appearance from CS in DotA was welcomed and players like Kuroky openly displayed their interest in Starcraft 2 aswell. And Athene even casually finds the time to troll both LoL and HoN in a way only he can do (and according to a statement from a friend of mine he already announced to win the Dota 2 Tournament at Gamescom on his own^^).
If you follow the TeamLiquid comments (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250261) concerning the Tournament (posted by 5-s, a player who too has openly displayed his interest in Starcraft 2 while being a talented DotA player and part-time caster) you will realize that there is a surprisingly friendly atmosphere in the thread.
The DotA community isn't like it was in 2006 either, young and craving for attention and recognition. It learned, matured, improved, it sustained itself, it maintained itself, despite heavy competition, all on it's own without backup which is why it is unique in it's own way in the world of eSports and why it does not have to answer to a person with a different set of standards and believes who wants to apply his own logic to something he does not know nor understand, without even considering to understand or LEARN about "the other" first. This basic lack of respect prevents the creation of understanding (for everbody who hates to think: Avatar by James Cameron was pretty much about this theme).
Respect has to be earned. DotA has learned to respect itself and shows respect to those who deserve it once you are able to see through the trollish shitstorm which interestingly, works the same way DjWheat's comments do, just into a different direction. It's also created the same way: by trollish, ignorant, disrespectful, uneducated, uninformed, childish and dumb comments.
You wanna talk? Send Totalbiscuits and leave it to him, he will understand and respect and in turn will be understood and respected despite possible frictions and different opinions.
And I suggest closing this thread because that's what always eventually happens: someone somewhere will say something stupid, someone will answer, and the true feelings from both sides will get lost in the religiously fanatical shitstorm that follows from both sides.
That post to me comes off as a little insecure(not to mention butthurt that there are indeed people out there who don't know what dota is), saying that dota doesn't need to prove itself to anyone and claiming djWheat's lack of knowledge of the dota scene is disrespectful. Yes DotA is incredibly popular, but there are tons of gamers out there who don't know or don't care about DotA. Its hostility to outsiders like this that makes the DotA community so shitty.
it's a fun game, but I honestly don't see why people are arguing that it's going to be the #1 game or whatever. Esports is a large and open market, much like professional sports. Counterstrike was able to exist alongside SC1, and WC3 was able to exist alongside DotA. DotA 2 and SC2 appeal to totally different crowds and require vastly different skillsets. I happen to know a lot of professional DotA players on a somewhat personal level (mostly the American ones--FearDarkness etc) and so I do know a thing or two about DotA, despite never having played at the tip-top level. The thing is, this IS a publicity stunt, and DJWheat is totally correct in saying that. If DotA 2 succeeds, it will be because it's a great game, not because of money. Again, Wheat is correct. There is absolutely no reason for people to be mad at Wheat for stating the obvious: Valve is promoting Dota 2 with their wallets. It's a bold and clever move, but it's still a move. I would also like people to consider that GSL prizes are monthly and are between 50k-100k. SC2 has pretty big tournaments of its own, and that's just fine. I welcome Dota2; hopefully it impels Blizzard to sponsor something for SC2. Hopefully it makes sponsors look more closely at eSports.
Do I think Dota will take over SC2? Honestly, not really. Dota is a team game, and Sc2 isn't. Furthermore, I tend to think the games are regionally skewed. Dota is pretty much entirely based in China/nordic europe at this point, whereas SC2 has more market penetration plus an extremely old exposure in Korea. As far as skill, I don't think there are any true Bonjwas of DotA these days. Vigoss, LightofHeaven and Virtus Pro in general were at that level, but DotA today is getting very near to its skill ceiling. Games are won by metagaming rather than absolute displays of mechanical or strategic skill. That's not a bad thing; it's just a different style. Chinese teams are all pretty much competitive with one another, and European teams that actually play diligently can compete with those. I honestly don't think players have gotten a whole lot 'better' in a strict sense since I started following the competitive scene seriously several years ago. All that's changed is the metagame. The best teams have always been those who can adapt to the metagame the quickest (ganking versus farming etc).
Wheat, throw me a PM if you need anymore info. I'll even come on your show if you need it. People need to understand that these two games are NOT in competition with each other except on the fringes.
On August 03 2011 09:58 HarryKlein wrote: Sorry if this was posted already, but I think this is a great post (from Gosugamers.net)
Dj Wheat read this.
It's the same old story, a person without knowledge who belongs to a certain group of people/community protects himself by blocking and differentiating himself from "the other" via various means, normally linked to a strong sentiment of the own superiority and bestowing the own standards/believes onto something else.
All the information DjWheat needs/wants is out there, if he cares and is interested let him search it himself, there is no reason to answer to a disrespectful call like this. DotA does not have to proof itself anymore, it did that already. It's the reason there is a Dota 2, that there are major games like LoL and HoN and many other clones and that it is one of the most frequently played games of the world.
We could enter a discussion with him, yes, but we simply shouldn't fall for the cheap troll/flame bait attempts anymore. Do you think it's a coincidence that Totalbiscuits played DotA for 4 years (according to his own words)? That Husky (or HD? not sure anymore) explicitly mentioned DotA and items like Boots of Speed in his casts or that he used the annihilation quote from HoN?
It's because both are naturally RTS games, DotA may be a variation but it shares some very basic mechanics.
Don't let people like DjWheat fool you, DotA and Starcraft have always been "friends" or at least on good terms and had a surprisingly nice relationsship ever since Eul created DotA based on Aeon of Strafe (Valley of Disent too) from Starcraft. Many people follow(ed) or have been part of both scenes or have even been active in both. Babyknights decision to move to Starcraft was widely accepted and respected even on the troll-like GosuGamers community website, Xeqtr's appearance from CS in DotA was welcomed and players like Kuroky openly displayed their interest in Starcraft 2 aswell. And Athene even casually finds the time to troll both LoL and HoN in a way only he can do (and according to a statement from a friend of mine he already announced to win the Dota 2 Tournament at Gamescom on his own^^).
If you follow the TeamLiquid comments (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250261) concerning the Tournament (posted by 5-s, a player who too has openly displayed his interest in Starcraft 2 while being a talented DotA player and part-time caster) you will realize that there is a surprisingly friendly atmosphere in the thread.
The DotA community isn't like it was in 2006 either, young and craving for attention and recognition. It learned, matured, improved, it sustained itself, it maintained itself, despite heavy competition, all on it's own without backup which is why it is unique in it's own way in the world of eSports and why it does not have to answer to a person with a different set of standards and believes who wants to apply his own logic to something he does not know nor understand, without even considering to understand or LEARN about "the other" first. This basic lack of respect prevents the creation of understanding (for everbody who hates to think: Avatar by James Cameron was pretty much about this theme).
Respect has to be earned. DotA has learned to respect itself and shows respect to those who deserve it once you are able to see through the trollish shitstorm which interestingly, works the same way DjWheat's comments do, just into a different direction. It's also created the same way: by trollish, ignorant, disrespectful, uneducated, uninformed, childish and dumb comments.
You wanna talk? Send Totalbiscuits and leave it to him, he will understand and respect and in turn will be understood and respected despite possible frictions and different opinions.
And I suggest closing this thread because that's what always eventually happens: someone somewhere will say something stupid, someone will answer, and the true feelings from both sides will get lost in the religiously fanatical shitstorm that follows from both sides.
That post to me comes off as a little insecure(not to mention butthurt that there are indeed people out there who don't know what dota is), saying that dota doesn't need to prove itself to anyone and claiming djWheat's lack of knowledge of the dota scene is disrespectful. Yes DotA is incredibly popular, but there are tons of gamers out there who don't know or don't care about DotA. Its hostility to outsiders like this that makes the DotA community so shitty.
Yeah I don't see why the community shouldn't attempt to educate somebody who may not be up to date with their game of choice on the happenings in that scene. Especially when that person is a huge e-sports icon, not that it should matter to the community what the persons standings are anyways.
So far the responses from this thread and some of the responses from the forum that GenoZStriker posted on are fairly decent. I hope djwheat brings on someone who either plays dota competitively or is a caster for tomorrow's show as they could probably shed a lot more light on the subject.
On August 03 2011 09:58 HarryKlein wrote: Sorry if this was posted already, but I think this is a great post (from Gosugamers.net)
Dj Wheat read this.
It's the same old story, a person without knowledge who belongs to a certain group of people/community protects himself by blocking and differentiating himself from "the other" via various means, normally linked to a strong sentiment of the own superiority and bestowing the own standards/believes onto something else.
All the information DjWheat needs/wants is out there, if he cares and is interested let him search it himself, there is no reason to answer to a disrespectful call like this. DotA does not have to proof itself anymore, it did that already. It's the reason there is a Dota 2, that there are major games like LoL and HoN and many other clones and that it is one of the most frequently played games of the world.
We could enter a discussion with him, yes, but we simply shouldn't fall for the cheap troll/flame bait attempts anymore. Do you think it's a coincidence that Totalbiscuits played DotA for 4 years (according to his own words)? That Husky (or HD? not sure anymore) explicitly mentioned DotA and items like Boots of Speed in his casts or that he used the annihilation quote from HoN?
It's because both are naturally RTS games, DotA may be a variation but it shares some very basic mechanics.
Don't let people like DjWheat fool you, DotA and Starcraft have always been "friends" or at least on good terms and had a surprisingly nice relationsship ever since Eul created DotA based on Aeon of Strafe (Valley of Disent too) from Starcraft. Many people follow(ed) or have been part of both scenes or have even been active in both. Babyknights decision to move to Starcraft was widely accepted and respected even on the troll-like GosuGamers community website, Xeqtr's appearance from CS in DotA was welcomed and players like Kuroky openly displayed their interest in Starcraft 2 aswell. And Athene even casually finds the time to troll both LoL and HoN in a way only he can do (and according to a statement from a friend of mine he already announced to win the Dota 2 Tournament at Gamescom on his own^^).
If you follow the TeamLiquid comments (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250261) concerning the Tournament (posted by 5-s, a player who too has openly displayed his interest in Starcraft 2 while being a talented DotA player and part-time caster) you will realize that there is a surprisingly friendly atmosphere in the thread.
The DotA community isn't like it was in 2006 either, young and craving for attention and recognition. It learned, matured, improved, it sustained itself, it maintained itself, despite heavy competition, all on it's own without backup which is why it is unique in it's own way in the world of eSports and why it does not have to answer to a person with a different set of standards and believes who wants to apply his own logic to something he does not know nor understand, without even considering to understand or LEARN about "the other" first. This basic lack of respect prevents the creation of understanding (for everbody who hates to think: Avatar by James Cameron was pretty much about this theme).
Respect has to be earned. DotA has learned to respect itself and shows respect to those who deserve it once you are able to see through the trollish shitstorm which interestingly, works the same way DjWheat's comments do, just into a different direction. It's also created the same way: by trollish, ignorant, disrespectful, uneducated, uninformed, childish and dumb comments.
You wanna talk? Send Totalbiscuits and leave it to him, he will understand and respect and in turn will be understood and respected despite possible frictions and different opinions.
And I suggest closing this thread because that's what always eventually happens: someone somewhere will say something stupid, someone will answer, and the true feelings from both sides will get lost in the religiously fanatical shitstorm that follows from both sides.
That post to me comes off as a little insecure(not to mention butthurt that there are indeed people out there who don't know what dota is), saying that dota doesn't need to prove itself to anyone and claiming djWheat's lack of knowledge of the dota scene is disrespectful. Yes DotA is incredibly popular, but there are tons of gamers out there who don't know or don't care about DotA. Its hostility to outsiders like this that makes the DotA community so shitty.
Yeah I don't see why the community shouldn't attempt to educate somebody who may not be up to date with their game of choice on the happenings in that scene. Especially when that person is a huge e-sports icon, not that it should matter to the community what the persons standings are anyways.
So far the responses from this thread and some of the responses from the forum that genozstrike posted on are fairly decent. I hope djwheat brings on someone who either plays dota competitively or is a caster for tomorrow's show as they could probably shed a lot more light on the subject.
Tobi wan of joindota.com has expressed interested in being on live on 3 as a guest. He casted many many tournaments including SMMs etc and will be the gamescom english caster. Not having him on to discuss the subject would be ridiculous. I would say try to get Tobi and any competitive player.. maybe kuroky (tobi can help arrange that most likely)
People have high expectations for DotA 2. I, for one, think that it will affect its genre much the same way that SC2 affected the RTS scene, bringing in players from DotA, HoN, LoL, and other similar games, as well as brand new players. Future DotA 2 pros will probably come from all of these games. DotA has a very high learning curve, which contributes to it not being the greatest game for the average spectator to pick up and watch. But I would consider most of the players to be dedicated, "hardcore" fans. It is very much an international community, with huge followings in Asia, Europe, and South America. I would also gather that there is a rather large crossover of gamers who are interested in both SC2 and DotA. (I mean, one of the heroes is a Hydralisk! =D)
On August 03 2011 10:26 gurrpp wrote: That post to me comes off as a little insecure(not to mention butthurt that there are indeed people out there who don't know what dota is), saying that dota doesn't need to prove itself to anyone and claiming djWheat's lack of knowledge of the dota scene is disrespectful. Yes DotA is incredibly popular, but there are tons of gamers out there who don't know or don't care about DotA. Its hostility to outsiders like this that makes the DotA community so shitty.
People want us to cover DotA, we don't and we're hurting the game.
We seek out information to discuss it properly, and we're hurting the game.
I have no desire to "inject" myself into their community. I ask genuinely insightful questions, even gave my perspective on it... if anything, the recent discussion got me more curious. I can gladly "back off" but I have a feeling that this particular voice doesn't necessarily represent the entire community... maybe they do. EDIT: Ouch. After reading through some comments, I guess I was wrong... most of them do feel that way.
I did a ton of research this AM about DotA, and after that, I had a shitload of questions... especially as it relates from my point of view. I thought it was respectful to seek answers from those who showed a vested interest in DotA so that it could be represented properly.
I do not believe LO3 has any responsibility to have covered DotA, when it was pretty obvious who our target audience is. We have attempted to branch out to other games, sometimes with welcome arms, and other times, not so much.
With DotA as large as it is, I'm surprised there's not a similar LO3 like program out there. That's too bad.
On August 03 2011 11:20 Slasher wrote: WHY THE FUCK ARE THERE SO MANY POSTS HERE ABOUT DOTA2 WHEN MY PICKS DESTROYED THIS WEEKEND. KICKS IN THE DICK ALL AROUND TOMORROW.
one million dollar tournament, huge shakeups in china scene with son of richest man in china buying teams/players for 6+ mill .
On August 03 2011 11:20 Slasher wrote: WHY THE FUCK ARE THERE SO MANY POSTS HERE ABOUT DOTA2 WHEN MY PICKS DESTROYED THIS WEEKEND. KICKS IN THE DICK ALL AROUND TOMORROW.
because everyone predicted these results
On August 03 2011 11:16 djWHEAT wrote:
With DotA as large as it is, I'm surprised there's not a similar LO3 like program out there. That's too bad.
i have seen various podcasts being posted never took the time to listen to any
I really hope DotA2 will do well. I really find it to be the best team game out there. I really hate casual games and I love the hardcore feel of SC. You are 100% responsible if you lose you cant blame anyone else. Perfect singleplayer game. DotA/HoN/LoL(at high level) the same thing yet with 4 friends. Play it hard and master items/skills/combos/wardplacement/ganking or fail miserably. Love it.
On August 03 2011 10:26 gurrpp wrote: That post to me comes off as a little insecure(not to mention butthurt that there are indeed people out there who don't know what dota is), saying that dota doesn't need to prove itself to anyone and claiming djWheat's lack of knowledge of the dota scene is disrespectful. Yes DotA is incredibly popular, but there are tons of gamers out there who don't know or don't care about DotA. Its hostility to outsiders like this that makes the DotA community so shitty.
People want us to cover DotA, we don't and we're hurting the game.
We seek out information to discuss it properly, and we're hurting the game.
I have no desire to "inject" myself into their community. I ask genuinely insightful questions, even gave my perspective on it... if anything, the recent discussion got me more curious. I can gladly "back off" but I have a feeling that this particular voice doesn't necessarily represent the entire community... maybe they do. EDIT: Ouch. After reading through some comments, I guess I was wrong... most of them do feel that way.
I did a ton of research this AM about DotA, and after that, I had a shitload of questions... especially as it relates from my point of view. I thought it was respectful to seek answers from those who showed a vested interest in DotA so that it could be represented properly.
I do not believe LO3 has any responsibility to have covered DotA, when it was pretty obvious who our target audience is. We have attempted to branch out to other games, sometimes with welcome arms, and other times, not so much.
With DotA as large as it is, I'm surprised there's not a similar LO3 like program out there. That's too bad.
Too be honest, I'd say don't force it. It would make the show really akward. Simply talking about Valve making the $1,000,000 announcement and what your thoughts are on it is more than enough and as Gamescom happens and the game goes into open beta you can decide from there if you start mentioning and even get into a little. Like LO3 never really covered say, WC3 but you guys mentioned it here and there, reported on majors once in a while. You guys never forced yourself to cover it and I don't think you should for DotA either.
One of the biggest contribution factor that make DOTA and LOL are big on south east Asia and China is because of financial problems. Lol is free to play game and most of china copy of dota is pirated. So if DOTA 2 want to do big in those regions it will be selling hats and more hats, just kidding i mean micro transactions sales like LOL. Any news on Dota2 being free to play or purchase one time or subscription base?
On the side note, piracy is the reason why Wc3: ROC sold less than WC3:FT when WC3:FT require Wc3:Roc to play. And that is why no lan and always online mode are enforce by Blizzard.
Too be honest, I'd say don't force it. It makes the show really akward. Simply talking about Valve making the $1,000,000 announcement and what your thoughts are on it is more than enough and as Gamescom happens and the game goes into open beta you can decide from there if you start mentioning and even get into a little. Like LO3 never really covered say, WC3 but you guys mentioned it here and there, reported on majors once in a while. You guys never forced yourself to cover it and I don't think you should for DotA either.
i agree with this do not force yourself to talk about any game, but if what the DotA community is predicting happens you will gain interest in the game as EG will surely sign a team.
EPT
